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Bedtime Psychology: Helping Kids Sleep with Leanne Tran
25 Plays1 year ago
From crying babies to tech-obsessed teenagers, kids aren't always ready for sleep at bedtime. Yet kids need more sleep than adults, and sleep deficiencies are core to many childhood health issues. Even when they lie down at a decent hour, many kids struggle to find deep rest because of anxiety, sleep-onset disorder, nightmares, sleep apnea, or other conditions. Learn successful bedtime strategies for kids of all ages and how to support children in building behavioral health habits.
Leanne Tran is a registered psychologist specializing in working with children and families. She hosts online classes to support parenting ADHD, autism, and other challenging behaviors.
Connect with Leanne at leannetran.com.au.
In this episode:
- Sleep associations in young children
- What kids need to sleep well
- Teaching kids to fall asleep on their own
- Navigating teen schedules and finding time for sleep
- Modeling sleep hygiene with healthy family habits
- Talking with your teenager about the importance of sleep
- Reasons kids don't sleep: Sleep-onset disorder, sleep apnea, and nightmares
- Finding routines and strategies that work for your family
Connect with us at SuenoLabs.com. We're currently looking for contributors and podcast guests!
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Transcript
Introduction to Children's Sleep Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
It is late in the evening. Not quite bedtime. My kids are still awake in the other room. And I am about to make a phone call to the other side of the world. Tonight, we're talking about sleep patterns in children. Babies, toddlers, young children, teenagers. If you are a parent or an aunt or an uncle or a grandparent, you know that as much as kids need sleep,
00:00:26
Speaker
Sometimes it is the hardest thing in the world to get them to go to bed and stay in bed, especially with all of the distractions and technology available to them. And it's not just about phones. Sometimes there are some very legitimate reasons that kids aren't sleeping well.
00:00:43
Speaker
whether that's because of something traumatic happening in their lives or a mental health disorder or something of that nature. So if you have kids or if you're interested in childhood development, you are going to want to stay tuned to learn all of the magical hacks to get kids to sleep or, at the very least, some helpful strategies.
Expert Introduction: Leanne Tran
00:01:06
Speaker
Tonight, I talk with Leanne Tran, a registered psychologist specializing in work with children and families about her perspective on the associations and habits that make it difficult for children to fall asleep and what parents and caregivers can do to support their children's rest and positive behavioral health. I'm Jimmy Leonard. This is Swenio Labs.
00:01:33
Speaker
Leanne Tran, welcome to Swenio Labs. How are you today? I'm doing well. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Of course. I stopped myself there because I was about to say, how are you this evening? But it's actually how are you this morning for you. I love having these conversations from halfway around the world because from my vantage point, it's like I'm speaking to the future. So for me, for me, it's Wednesday. But for you, it's already Thursday.
Leanne Tran's Career Journey
00:01:58
Speaker
So I can say, you know, tell tell me what's going to happen tomorrow.
00:02:02
Speaker
If I had stock tips or something to give you, I would, but i'm I don't. If I think about this too long, it's going to make my head explode. yeah Yeah, it's the end of the day for you, and that's when those heads do explode, whereas I'm feeling kind of well rested and refreshed, so I'm good good to go.
00:02:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that's wonderful. There's a number of things that we can talk about today, but I thought we could start with you and your background a little bit. So you are a psychologist and you specialize in working with children and families. What draws you to that or maybe how did you land there of all places? Yeah, it's an interesting story. Looking back on it, I, when I was in high school, I wanted to be a teacher because I think I really enjoyed the experience of learning. and I've then made a shift ah for some unknown reason to psychology, thinking that but I can see the parallels between teaching and psychology. but Psychology is often about teaching and people about themselves, about their brains, about we do a lot of psychoeducation, which is really just teaching about psychological concepts and things like that. so
00:03:15
Speaker
um i think i Still love that teaching idea, but it's expanded to rather than academics to life in general. And when I was a kid, I had a slight physical difference, which made me always feel not quite the same as everybody else. And so for me, I think that's what's drawn me to working with.
00:03:36
Speaker
um children who are often developing differently. I started working with children with physical disabilities and then my works kind of expanded into other developmental differences like ah learning, autism, ADHD and that kind of thing.
Empowering Parents for Better Sleep
00:03:53
Speaker
And I love working with kids. They are so much fun, but they can't control their environment. So it's a big part of my work is working with parents as well.
00:04:04
Speaker
to be able to know how to support their kids at home because they might see me an hour a week or a fortnight but they're with their families the rest of the time so parents when they feel empowered and knowledgeable about what to do really are the ones who make all of the changes for their kids.
00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah, and that's the responsibility. It's the the joy and the challenge of parenting, right? You know, I have little boys at home, and so the days when they're just running around wild and crazy, and there is sort of that tension within me of, okay, you know, i I want to give them the space to grow and develop as as they're supposed to you, and I want them to be free, but I also want them to go to bed. I also want them to be on the couch. I also want them to, you know, go do their chores. And so I think there is, in all families, there Of course, you know, there are differences, but there's always kind of that underlying tension that I think parents want to do a good job, but oftentimes it's just how do I do a good job or how do I relate to a child who is is maybe different than me or different than my spouse or is maybe the same as me and people didn't know how to relate to me. And so that's, you know, you don't even have an example sometimes in your own family of origin.
00:05:15
Speaker
Exactly. That's a really important part as well about how sometimes we know what how we don't want to raise our kids based on things we didn't like about our childhood, but without an alternative path, it's really hard to know what to do.
00:05:30
Speaker
When we were talking before the show, you know, Swen your labs, one of our favorite topics is sleep. So at least for a little while here, I want to talk about sleep patterns in young
Understanding Children's Sleep Needs
00:05:41
Speaker
children. I say young children because I have young children. i I think that there's maybe some, some overemphasis we put on it, especially in that first year of life where I know at least me and my wife, when we had our first born, we're following the book and we're doing all of these things. You know, how can we get this baby to sleep? But.
00:05:55
Speaker
And ironically, we don't necessarily care about our own sleep with such passion. You know, we don't protect it in the same ways or, or do some of the same environmental things. yeah But I wonder if there, there are some differences. I mean, I'm sure there are, but maybe what are the differences when we're thinking about sleep needs for kids versus sleep needs for adults?
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think the biggest one is that children need more sleep. And that's probably the main difference in terms of how kids go to sleep and stay asleep through the night. It's pretty similar, but children need more sleep. But the other part is, I think that as children are still learning how to do everything. And so when we think about sleep, they're still learning how to go to sleep and how to self-settle if they wake through the night and that kind of thing. and so That's something that we as adults have learned how to do, but kids are still learning that. so How parents interact with their kids around sleep, that's what teaches them how to do it and that's where sometimes families can run into a bit of trouble. For example, thinking back to my firstborn as well did not know what I was doing.
00:07:10
Speaker
and was distressed at him crying. So I held him a lot and he slept when I held him. And that made a little bit of a rod for my own back, which I could fix later. But in a way it was teaching him that he would go to sleep when he was being rocked or moved by somebody. Kids, they sleep the same. They need more sleep, but it's about how they um how we support them to to go to sleep and stay asleep that can set up those patterns for them.
00:07:37
Speaker
I guess I haven't really thought about it in that exact way before, but there's so many other things that a baby is learning how to do where we can just mimic it. you know We can show them, a baby's learning how to eat. Well, look, i'm going ah I'm going to put some food in my mouth and I'm going to do it right in front of you and I'm going to show you how that works or a baby's learning how to talk. well okay i'm gonna make some sounds you know dad dad dad dad you know your first words gonna be dad dad you know yeah definitely i've done that many times yeah but it's hard to do that with sleep right you know you can't necessarily say okay baby watch watch as i crawl into this crib and fall asleep okay did you get it all right now your turn and i think that that's you know maybe we all
00:08:16
Speaker
intuitively recognize that challenge, but it we don't always articulate it in that way, that it's it's hard to teach someone how to do something. You can't show them. That is a really good insight.
Sleep Associations and Their Impact
00:08:27
Speaker
I'd never thought of that before either. So what are kids looking at then?
00:08:31
Speaker
think they do, they naturally fall asleep. So it's not so much that they're looking for cues from us, but it's usually associations. So yeah they might, if we're putting them to sleep in a certain way, they, just by those two things occurring at the same time, will associate what we're doing with them going to sleep. And so when those two things occur together,
00:08:57
Speaker
um each time it strengthens that bond so that then kids they find it a lot harder to naturally fall asleep without that stimulus or action so for example if you're putting a ah child down in their cot to go to sleep there they learn by association that.
00:09:15
Speaker
I'll fall asleep when I'm drowsy and I'm lying in my bed. um But if we rock our kids to sleep, they learn I go to sleep when mum's holding me. If we can be intentional about still being there for babies in that supportive, loving, nurturing way, but not, you know, thinking about helping them go to sleep in a way that you'd like that to continue through their early childhood, that's a really great approach Do we ever break free of associations? I think when I'm even thinking about myself, you know I have a sleep routine. What do those look like into toddler, early elementary sort of years? How do those associations change or continue even?
00:10:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's it's so interesting because there are some studies done that show even in adults as we sleep, there are really tiny little micromovements or behaviours that mimic how we learn to go to sleep as young children. So for if, for example, you were rocked, then sleep studies show that some adults then still do really tiny little rocks when they're going to sleep as an adult. and Children who maybe cuddled a toy will tend to cuddle or hold pillows or things like that as an adult. So those ways that kids first learn really do remain throughout childhood into adulthood to some degree.
00:10:45
Speaker
But there's there are always I view them as habits that can always be changed. But if we keep in mind trying to change habits for ourselves, it's hard. So it takes dedicated practice to do it. But one I think one of the common associations I see is perhaps children who don't feel safe or calm to go to sleep without an adult there.
00:11:08
Speaker
And so that might be being held or in the room with them as babies and through toddlers, maybe they want a parent to be in their bed or touching a parent while they fall asleep. And then through to primary school or elementary school age, you would call it maybe just wanting a parent to be in the room or leaving their door open so they can hear a parent there and those kind of things. So it can change as children develop and mature. But um Yeah, if you don't intentionally do something to kind of stop the habit, it will remain. It almost sounds like a word of warning. ah yeah But i I don't, you know, I'm sure like not all of these things are bad. it's No. It's just thinking thinking about what what that looks like for your kids and maybe even having some awareness of it. That's right.
00:11:57
Speaker
And for me, I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing because if that's, I mean, having ah having a baby is really hard and having multiple kids. So a baby when you've also got other young children is really, really hard. So if it's what you need to do to survive that moment in time,
00:12:20
Speaker
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing you can change those habits later on it's just being aware of the impact it has at the time and so what we had often do in psychology is. Make changes in small steps overtime and so what that might look like as a child who.
00:12:40
Speaker
needs to fall asleep holding a parent and then once once they're old enough to to talk with them about it, and you might be saying, you know, you're big now. I'm going to try and help you go to sleep on your own. And so maybe for a week, you let them do it the same way. The next week, maybe you sit with them in the bed, but they're not touching you.
00:13:00
Speaker
The next week you're sitting at the end of their bed and then halfway to the door, inside the door, just outside the door. So you can do it in a way that's really nurturing and feel safe for kids. It doesn't have to be this harsh kind of change in their reality. Yeah. So if it is a challenge, but if it's something you're doing to cope at the time, you can always make a dedicated effort to change that pattern later.
00:13:27
Speaker
That makes sense. I think especially when it's framed positively for the kid, you know, even it just the language you just used of, you know, you're big now or like, you know, it's it's about, it's about you growing and what you're capable of. It's not about me not wanting to be here. yes It's not an abandonment or anything like that. So Leanne, I want to go back to something that you said, because i I think it's really important. You said the key difference is not so much in how we fall asleep, but it's how much sleep we need.
00:13:56
Speaker
So when we're thinking about children or or teenagers even, how much are we talking about? That's a really
Recommended Sleep Durations and Practices
00:14:04
Speaker
good question. um And one that I don't know off the top of my head, but I always Google it when I'm with families because, actually because I work with teenagers a lot as well and I like to show them the information so that they, I don't know, it feels more legitimate when, and it's not as threatening when it's from research, not from me. But so it's When kids are teenagers, it's maybe eight to 10 hours. I think as adults, they talk about at least seven. Seven teenagers, eight to 10. For middle school kids, they're maybe around six to 12. It's nine to 11 hours. And for young kids from that three to five age, 10 to 13 hours, which includes naps. I think babies, it's as much as they want.
00:14:52
Speaker
I never wake a sleeping sleeping baby. that's my um That's my mantra. I'm a psychologist, but I work in a practice with lots of pediatricians. So we have a pediatric practice with lots of different disciplines. And so I've learned a lot of about sleep from them. And one of the guiding principle is that kids should get enough sleep so that when they wake, they feel rested and energized. So they kind of get out of bed with no problems at all and and can go and start their day.
00:15:21
Speaker
Yeah, and I think even putting times of day on those ranges is is probably where it really starts to make sense. So if we take the teenager range of eight to 10 hours, a typical high school student, you know, at least in America, you you really have to be waking up around six o'clock in the morning in order to to get ready and to, you know, get to your school on time. And so that means you need to be going to bed at 10pm, 9pm, 8pm. And for for the typical teenager you know like ah just a neurotypical average teenager that's not happening you know that's that's that's right about the time that you're starting to get on instagram or you know you're you're starting to watch a television show or or sometimes you're even still in the middle of an extracurricular activity and you know you haven't
00:16:08
Speaker
gotten home from it yet, or if you're working, you know, you haven't gotten off work, you know, there's sometimes just, you know, your family rhythm is you're just sitting down for dinner at 8pm too. I think when you put it in those terms, you start to realize like, okay, this is, this is probably not being anywhere close. Yeah, this is not not quite where we're landing here. Yeah. And there's no way that you can catch up on that either. We call it a sleep debt. If you're not getting enough, then it's not like you can sleep a lot on the weekend and catch up and it, you know, evens out. It doesn't really work that way. And I guess too, like the guidelines for good sleep hygiene is to go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time each day. So to sleep in on the weekends,
00:16:49
Speaker
goes against that philosophy as well so if you're talking about healthy sleep it's it's a lot better to have a set bedtime and a set wake time and a really consistent routine. And so you mentioned the technology as well so recommendations are to not use technology for about say one and a half to two hours before you go to bed either so that It really, when you do that math about when they need to get up, when they need to go to bed, and then think about when the screens need to end, it's a lot earlier than families realize or probably find practically easy to do. Sure. Yeah, I was just about to ask you, you know, what what is the magic advice to get your teenager to get off their phone at 5pm and have a nice relaxing evening to go to bed on time? Yeah, I'm sure there are probably many families who would love to know what that secret sauce is.
00:17:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard because there's not really a you know secret answer that works easily, but there the answer really is to have really clear boundaries around when the screens can be used and also about the sleep hygiene routine as well. So the advice is simple paul and it's consistent. It's just hard to put into practice.
00:18:03
Speaker
My husband is a pediatrician so our poor kids have this double whammy of parents who really don't want things to go wrong so we have a really strict routine in that we eat dinner at six o'clock and at that point are starting to turn the lights down low so that natural winding down can take place and they don't use their phones after that time.
00:18:26
Speaker
There's no music on either. There's no TV. and It's quiet with low lights. We eat and then kind of start that bedtime routine, which is showering and then reading before bed or doing something quiet activity. I've got one kid who is not a reader and he doesn't like sitting still. So he might do a puzzle or, you know, some drawing or Sudoku or something like that or.
00:18:51
Speaker
Sometimes listening to audio books is probably the only time we give a little bit of leeway so oh our children feel hard done by sometimes because of this adherence to the routine but I think in the end it's going to be better for them to get the sleep they need.
00:19:09
Speaker
One of my kids though, he's 14 and just really likes, he needs sleep. um He gets up early, always has, so around 5.30 or 6. But he's putting himself to bed at 7.30 because he's naturally tired. So I think if you set the environment up really well so that it's relaxing and then there's a little bit of leeway in terms of the kid that needs more sleep can go to bed earlier, the kid who doesn't.
00:19:36
Speaker
doesn't have to, but it's still in that quiet winding down routine that leads up to
Modeling Good Sleep Habits as Parents
00:19:43
Speaker
bedtime. So I'll ask a question that might seem like a little bit of a personal question, if that's okay. But how difficult is it for you as a parent to really enforce what you're talking about there? Because I know sometimes myself and I talk to other parents, it's it's one thing to tell your kids, we're going to put the phones away at six o'clock.
00:20:04
Speaker
But then for yourself to actually model that and to be consistent and to to not be taking a call or to not be whatever you would be doing. i I'm curious to hear your perspective on that. Yeah, it's it can be difficult. I work from home some of the time as well. So I do have a dedicated office space where my computer is. And so if I sometimes I'm on evening webinars or things like that, I will go into the office.
00:20:30
Speaker
And I think having a dedicated space where that happens makes it easier as well. But a lot of it is about trying to model it as well. So I've got to put my own phone away. my And my kids say that to me, like if I mentioned to them, like screens away and they're like, well, yeah, but you have to too. And they say, okay, you're you're right. It's what you mentioned before about watching and and modeling. This is one thing that kids can watch and and learn.
00:20:56
Speaker
from what you do. I don't find it that difficult, but I also aim for the 80% success rate. So in our family, there is leeway for things not going well. And so an example is if we've got they've got cousins over on the weekend, are they going to stay up and watch a movie or something like that?
00:21:15
Speaker
There will always be times when maybe a phone call needs to happen, but I think between the two of us at home, we can manage it so that whoever needs to do that can go away into the office space or outside and the others kind of do the...
00:21:29
Speaker
or the other one does the family stuff. Yeah, they're mostly, I think as we start from a young age as well. And we're also lucky that we've picked extracurriculars that don't really have any late practice times. And here in Australia too, sometimes the practice is in the morning before school, which is awesome because then they're getting up early to go and do that. And there's they they're able to then you know wind down enough earlier in the evening.
00:21:57
Speaker
Yeah, that that is interesting. The starting early is important, but even to the recognizing that the older your kids get, the more that they can understand what you're saying to you when you've got a toddler and it's, you know, you need to eat your vegetables because I said so or, you know, yeah you know, maybe you'll say like, you know, it's going to make you strong or it's going to make you tall like daddy, but I don't know that they understand that, you know, like, you know, i really at a deep level.
00:22:22
Speaker
But I think especially with teenagers, they're old enough to have those conversations where the effects of sleep and the importance of sleep can really just be part of what you're talking about. you know I also will sometimes work in the evening when I need to finish an article, but you know my office at home, it it looks like a cave.
00:22:42
Speaker
When it when the sun goes down, i've I've got the lights low, my screens are all low, I've got these blue light blocking glasses that I wear. And even just having conversations with my kids, I'm doing this because I want to sleep well. And it's important because when I sleep well, I feel better and and to to have those conversations of this is why we do it. And this is why it's important versus just it seeming like a punishment.
00:23:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. And also linking it to your goals as well. So your you're linking it to your goals with when you say to your kids, I want to you know want to sleep well so that i because then I feel better. And so for my kids too, it's like, well, you'll have energy to play.
00:23:22
Speaker
how you want to play in your they play cricket. so and you know You'll be able to concentrate well at school and and that kind of thing. yeah I do hear a lot that their peers are up a lot later than they are, but you know my husband often says, look that's ridiculous. you know he that I guess we have some of the information about the scientific backing of how much kids sleep as well, so our kids know that we know what we're talking about.
00:23:49
Speaker
Yeah. Or sometimes you can even make examples of it to you. Yeah. Oh, your friends are up late. well Isn't that the kid who's always falling asleep on his book in math class? You know, it's like, you know, and they they can start to make those connections. They they don't have it both ways where they stay up late and then they're, they're thriving the next morning.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah. And they're old enough to to be able to problem solve some of the things as well. Like, you know, the common sleep problems if they've got stuff running through their mind before falling asleep or that kind of stuff. you I guess teenagers, but also probably elementary school kids, they're aware enough to be able to tell you what's happening. So you can say, oh, that sounds really tough. What would help you with that? Is it you know, having a chat with me before bed or is it being able to write stuff down or is it some relaxation or doing something enjoyable to get your mind off your worries and they can be involved in some of those strategies that will help minimize the sleep challenges.
00:24:45
Speaker
Sure, I like that. One thing that we started doing even with our oldest is bedtime isn't a time, it's a range. And so there there is that built in leeway, like you said earlier, where our our kids don't necessarily feel the pressure of It is now nine o'clock p.m. And so I need to be in bed because if we are having a conversation or we are talking through something or even if we are playing a board game or reading a book, it's it's okay to stay up a few minutes later. And I think it just it helps to take some of the pressure off of it. Yeah, it doesn't seem as punitive. Yeah, you have to go to bed right now.
00:25:25
Speaker
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00:25:43
Speaker
You mentioned things running through a child's brain. I think that there are certainly many, many legitimate reasons that kids don't sleep well.
Medical and Psychological Sleep Issues
00:25:52
Speaker
And and so I'm curious, what are in your work especially, what are some of the common things that you run into? What are some of the issues that really might be preventing a child from getting good restful sleep?
00:26:06
Speaker
Yeah, there's a few things that are medical things. And one of the most common things is sleep apnea in kids, which is interesting as we often, well, I often associate that with older.
00:26:21
Speaker
people, but um and that sleep apnea is... I'm going to use my layman psychology terms, and because I work with kids. my My language is often down to like a six-year-old level, but it's basically... That's sometimes helpful, right? but um when there's some kind of blockage in the airway at night um that will wake them up. So it might be that they've got really big tonsils or adenoids or um some kind of ear, nose and throat situation that means that they are waking up at night. So in those cases, I guess you can tell because that's mostly like kids waking up through the night. So you might be able to hear them snoring. um That's a big
00:27:08
Speaker
give away that that might be happening. And they generally wake up feeling, even though they've been asleep a long time, they're still tired throughout the day. And another thing is what the doctors would call parasomnias. Those are things like nightmares or night terrors. That's common in small kids. Night terrors where they kind of wake up in this, or they don't even wake up. They're yelling um and upset or nightmares and that kind of thing. And so in those cases, I'd recommend you can talk with a psychologist about that, like the nightmares and night terrors, or read some strategies about what to do online, but for
00:27:50
Speaker
um a child who might have some apneas they need to see a doctor and sometimes they do sleep studies or things like that sometimes it's allergies as well because allergies can kind of ah affect the airways and and cause that waking through the night as well. But then we head into my area more so, which is the things like nightmares and night terrors I work with a lot, but then things like sleep associations or um sleep onset difficulties is what we call when kids might be lying in bed for a long time, having difficulty falling asleep. And that's common in the work I do, I guess, because that is related a lot to anxiety with kids, but also sometimes
00:28:36
Speaker
You know ADHD and the indirect effects of medication they might be on also just having this Racing type of brain and sleep challenges like that are common in autism as well So that's the area where if we ruled out medical Causes then psychologists can help try to understand exactly what's happening and make some recommendations about things that parents can do and to help, but then also if it's anxiety or having trouble relaxing enough to sleep, then we can teach kids some relaxation strategies so that they um can manage that at nighttime. And how young do you kids start to have some of these sleep onset difficulties? If someone's listening to this and they think, okay, I've got a two-year-old or three-year-old who won't fall asleep, could could that be what's going on?
00:29:30
Speaker
It could be. Usually, I think the time is a bit of a giveaway, so kids should typically fall asleep within 20 minutes so of going to bed. and Kids vary. I've got you know one of mine who it's like this, so five minutes would be a worry for me, whereas the other one just takes longer, naturally. But if it's more than 20 minutes, that could be a giveaway that something else is happening there.
00:29:55
Speaker
I usually see it more so in elementary age school kids or elementary school age kids. Sometimes with little kids though around two or three or even into kindergarten years. So four or five is a natural time that separation anxiety can form. but's not and It's one of the developmental times where it's common for her separation anxiety too to form. and that can often be Going to bed is actually a separation from a parent for kids. so For them to fall asleep means they have to separate from being with their parent. um so That's a ah time when you know if they're having trouble falling asleep, that's that could be what's happening. so That's worth talking to somebody about and to get some advice as well.
00:30:42
Speaker
and you know You mentioned you you talk to parents, you talk to families about this.
Molded Parenting Program Overview
00:30:47
Speaker
Leah and I wanted to mention you you do have a program for parents who need help to support their children. so Tell me what that's all about. Sure. I have been working for a long time in my, I have a private practice here in Brisbane, Queensland, where I live. You might notice I say Brisbane, not Brisbane because and we just drop all our vowels down here. Yes.
00:31:10
Speaker
I found that you know these these issues are really common. They're common for just all kids growing up, but especially more common when kids have ADHD or are autistic and have different... Those developmental differences are associated with common challenges like sleep challenges or managing behavior and anxiety. And so I found what I was doing was a lot of the same kind of conversations with families. And i so I created the program, which I've called Molded Parenting.
00:31:46
Speaker
To offer that information to lots of parents in a way that's a bit easier to access. We've since COVID had a lot of challenges with being able to provide enough psychology support to to all the families who are looking for it. So it's a program parents can do online where we have an initial session, much as I would seeing people in person to try to talk about exactly what's going on, what are the challenges that um parents are experiencing.
00:32:15
Speaker
And then I've got online learning ah or sessions parents can watch and look at to understand all of those underlying factors that are contributing to the challenges they see. They're often unmet needs.
00:32:32
Speaker
um So rather than treats or try and focus on the behavior itself alone, it's more effective to think about what the underlying unmet needs are and to help parents with how to manage that. So it's a way that, yeah, parents can access all of that information in a way that then I still do weekly sessions with parents but in a group so that we can All the strategies and tools they're learning can be tailored to the individual families because, you know, it's come up a few times in our conversation today already that kids are all different, families are different. And so then one of the biggest things I think is a challenge for parents is knowing how to apply everything they've learned and read about certain things to their particular family. So, yeah, that's something I help with along the way.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's so important just to empower with knowledge and really take away some of the fear of the unknown. It's not something that no one's ever seen before. It's not something that's never happened before. It's not something that there are no resources about. And yeah of course, your kid is is unique and different and all of those things, but there are others who've been down this path before. And I think that support and accountability is so important.
00:33:49
Speaker
I think that really fits with one of my core values, which is the belief that parents can do what their kids need. And so parents don't necessarily need their child to see a psychologist when they've got challenges. It's just what sometimes is they don't have is the knowledge about um how their own particular child is working, whether that's understanding their development and understanding things like attachment and emotional regulation and all of that stuff. But I think once parents understand it, and they're the best people to be able to put those strategies in place to help their own kids. What would you say to somebody who who maybe hears you say that and disagrees? you know Someone who thinks, like you don't know my kid. You don't know my situation. yeah you know yeah Here you are on a podcast saying, i I have everything that I need, but I don't. What would you say there?
00:34:46
Speaker
I think you don't have to do it alone. That's the thing. But it's so hard to feel out of your depth like that, right? and And that's the time when I think it's useful to go and see somebody who can help, whether it's a family doctor or psychologist or somebody else. It's when you feel like you're out of tools in your tool bag. You've tried them all and nothing works. You don't have to do it alone. You can get some support from from people, but at the end of the day, too, you're the one who knows your child and has that connection with them as well. so um It can be something that you do, but in partnership with with somebody like a psychologist who can operate like a a coach, really, helping you maybe upskill and see things a bit differently and change your perspective, but at the same time, respect that you're the one who who can create that
00:35:43
Speaker
supportive home and a supportive relationship, which is what your child needs. Yeah, and that's I think that's such a healthy view of the relationship is is a coach. you know And is's in it again, kind of that empowering idea.
00:35:56
Speaker
this is actually taking us backward a little bit in the conversation. But one of the reasons that I personally am so interested in, in this when your labs podcast and sleep in general is, is I was a kid who had a lot of nightmares. And, and I think that even myself, often often the question is like, what's wrong with me or like, you know, what's, what's wrong. And it's so many times.
00:36:22
Speaker
when we're looking at these situations, I think that that's kind of the first thing that needs to change. Well, nothing is wrong with you. Nothing is wrong with the child. Nothing is wrong with the parent. And yeah it's and you're not going to see a pediatrician or a psychologist to be diagnosed. You know, I mean, sometimes you are. Yeah, it can be one part of it. But not not diagnosed in like ah the negative connotation of that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's like anything that we're doing in life, like if it's, you know, for our jobs, some people have businesses who are always, well, not all people are like that, but I am always looking for opportunities to learn more and to upskill. We can't know it all. And so I'm fortunate, I think, in this way of being a psychologist and that helps my parenting, but not everybody
00:37:11
Speaker
has that skill set. Lots of people have different careers and things that I know nothing about. And if I were to do something in that area, then I would be looking for support and knowledge and information straight up. But when people come and see me as a psychologist, I'm thinking about what is going to help your child and your family. And it doesn't really matter. Yeah, it's not about thinking that anything is wrong or, or any of that, like for kids, but also for parents, because they might be thinking I'm doing something wrong and there's some fear and shame in that sometimes. But at the end of the day to diagnosis or not, I mean, medical things probably different, but it doesn't really matter in some ways. What I'm more guided by is what's happening in your home and what are your goals? What would you like to be different? Because it's not just about
00:38:05
Speaker
Your child, because a child who's not sleeping well means a parent's not sleeping well, and that's infinitely harder to parent than when you've got to do your day job and all this other stuff. So hopefully that reassures parents who are worried about that too, that seeing a psychologist means it's often about having somebody that you can partner with in terms of improving things for you and your child.
00:38:31
Speaker
One thing I did want to talk about, I guess, was just that we were talking about the how to do that routine and things with teenagers. But I think then when I take my focus back to little kids and they don't necessarily have that ability to to talk to you about what's bothering them or about their sleep. And when kids are two or three and you tell them your goal is to sleep more so you can feel good, that that doesn't really land.
00:38:57
Speaker
I think if parents are starting at that point, just thinking about the routine as communication to kids. So if you are following that routine of um some good sleep hygiene to get started into sleep, then that teaches kids a lot, yeah, without overtly teaching them.
00:39:17
Speaker
and following those routines from a young age can instill the habits that you can then use later on. Hopefully that helps parents who have little kids to know where to start. Even just embracing that my kid's routine is going to look different than your kid's routine because there's there's so many different ways. One of our kids for like the longest time just prefer to sleep on the floor.
00:39:41
Speaker
He had a bed. His bed was great. He just, for whatever reason, he wanted to sleep on the hard floor. And after a while, it's just like, you know what? That's where he wants to sleep. That's right. If you think about the routine and how it's working well, how they actually do it, it doesn't matter so much if he's comfortable and happy. Yeah. Well, Leanne, this has truly been excellent. Where can listeners go to learn more about you and some of the work that you do?
00:40:07
Speaker
I have a podcast as well, so it's called Parent Like a Psychologist, and that's where I try and take what I've learned in all of the learning I do for my job and think about how that can apply to parenting so that other ah all parents out there can learn from that little insights at a time. I try to make them small enough that you can listen to them while going and picking up your kids from school.
00:40:32
Speaker
And I have a website as well, leantran.com.au, where people can find my work and and connect with me and also on Instagram as well. My goal is to be able to, like you do, you know provide this information that parents can access so that everybody can benefit. If you're not in a position to go and see a psychologist, then you can still learn lots of these things by listening and and following along in the newsletter.
00:41:02
Speaker
I love it. Lillian Tran, thank you so much for coming on the show. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it was a really lovely conversation and I appreciate the opportunity to be able to yeah share what I know about sleep and kids.
00:41:20
Speaker
Swinyolabs is a show about sleep, memory, and dreams. For more content, visit our blog at swinyolabs.com and connect with us to learn more about how you can share your story related to brain health and the daily habits that help us to rest and live better.
00:41:38
Speaker
Thanks for joining. We'll be back soon.