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31 Plays5 years ago
Josh and M discuss the Soviet pseudoscience of Lysenkoism, which was also part-and-parcel of a conspiracy...
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Josh is @monkeyfluids and M is @conspiracism on Twitter
You can also contact us at: podcastconspiracy@gmail.com
Watch M’s series “Conspiracism” here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJEp7xTcFU3hc2W0kfdSvAQ
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
The podcaster's guide to the conspiracy, brought to you today by Josh Addison and Dr. M. Denton.
00:00:19
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the podcaster's guide to the conspiracy. My name is Josh Addison, sitting next to me, as always, is Dr. Emdenteth. We're recording a little bit late today because I've been a little sick, but I do share a house with two small children, two school-aged children, and a wife who was a teacher. So my house is basically just a hot bed of filth and contagion. It's a playing factory. I've told you once, I've told you twice. You live in a factory of
00:00:43
Speaker
We can't all be like you, living in your hermetically sealed vivarium, making all your visitors pass through a full-body autoclave before you'll accept us all. Just because you're not willing to spend $250,000 on sterilisation equipment for guests doesn't mean you can't live like me. You're choosing not to live like me. Well, you've got me there.
00:01:05
Speaker
We have an episode to record now that I'm capable of human speech again. But not human grammar.
Patron Announcement and Benefits
00:01:13
Speaker
Apparently we have a new patron. We do. The mysterious SN has joined the ranks of people who get to listen to our bonus episodes. So if you want to join SN and all of the other patrons who hear about our bonus content, more about that at the end of the show, why not flick us
00:01:33
Speaker
A dollar a month or so, and you too can become one of the conspirators supporting the podcast's guide to the conspiracy. You could. And also, I understand there's been an important anniversary.
Moon Landing Hoax Discussion
00:01:44
Speaker
Yes, it's been 50 years since we faked landing on the moon. And as part of the conspiracy, the Science Media Centre here in Aotearoa, New Zealand asked me to write a few hundred words on the moon landing hoax conspiracy theories
00:01:57
Speaker
which has been sent out to journalists around the place. So my name may be appearing in print with a pre-manufactured quote. Pre-manufactured? By you or by someone else? I can't say. Okay. Because otherwise I will be revealing too much. And yeah, pre-manufactured was a bad way to put it. We've got a new ring light and every time I blink now there's this circle. Circle of light, yeah.
00:02:25
Speaker
Look like, what's if I skeletal from The Lord of the Rings? I made a point of doing that with her because she's a magic elf. Are you a magic elf? I am legally not allowed to say, due to the Sauron Pact of the Third Age, which means that I'm just not allowed to confirm nor deny such allegations or intimations of a mortal life granted to me by half-elven parents.
00:02:49
Speaker
Okay, don't worry, we'd better change the subject quickly. And I guess go into the main bit of the episode. Actually, though, still speaking of the patrons, if you are one of our patrons, then you would have heard last week's bonus content, and you'll know what's coming, because we sort of talked about it then. And because there's a scripted intro here, which mentioned having mentioned
00:03:07
Speaker
the content before the content intro. This week we're looking at Lysenkoism because we've promised a little bit of a series on both Russian and Nazi pseudoscience and we thought that Lysenkoism would be a good way to kick off the series. So let's kick off the series.
00:03:30
Speaker
This week, we could engage in some bad Soviet accents, but frankly… You got in trouble doing one in class on Monday, didn't you? Well, almost. I stalked myself before it got too bad. I just can't say trofum lysenko and lysenkoism without also saying komrad. And, well, you know how it goes.
Introduction to Lysenkoism
00:03:50
Speaker
Yes, now this week, as promised to our patrons and as you are learning right now, or really as of a minute ago when we announced it before the Chime, we are going to talk about the Soviet pseudoscience of Lysenkoism, a Larkian-inspired theory of agriculture promoted by one trophim Lysenko in the 1920s that became the biological orthodoxy of the USSR until around the 50s and 60s.
00:04:11
Speaker
It's also clearly a conspiracy theory because even when the Soviet leadership became aware that Lysenkoism was a pseudoscience, they kept promoting it anyway for political reasons. So, sit back and relax, unless you're driving, I suppose, then keep your eyes on the road while we take you down the avenues and alleyways of Lysenkoism.
00:04:32
Speaker
Where the strong and the quick alone can survive Look around the jungle, see the rough and tumble Listen to a Soviet cry Then a little later in the morning paper Read about the way Lysenko died
00:04:53
Speaker
Righto, so Lysenkoism. So I think you're going to be taking the lead on this one mostly, but that's okay because you've been talking about it in a professional capacity, I understand. Yes, so I've been teaching a course at the University of Waikato called Reason Science and Pseudoscience, and I be-game, be-game, be-game. I be-game. We all have. I certainly have be-game. I've begun the first, I don't say first episode of the series. See, language now, words mean nothing to me, comrade. Nothing at all.
00:05:21
Speaker
I started the lecture series for Reason, Science and Pseudoscience with a pay-on towards Lysenkoism because as the title of the course suggests we're talking about pseudoscientific theories and I wanted to kind of enter into a discussion of what a pseudoscience is by starting off by talking about a pseudoscience that was also a scientific conspiracy theory
00:05:44
Speaker
And Lysenkoism is a nice example, because A, the students probably weren't aware of it, so I could go through it in quite some depth. And B, I just love myself a bit of talk of the old Russian pseudosciences, because the USSR is fascinating. Really, really successful sciences, in some respects, really, really pseudoscientific theories promoted in other areas. It's kind of all over the place.
00:06:11
Speaker
Yes, so I think all over the place is probably a good description of Lysenko's theories in general, really. Indeed. Trofum Lysenko. He had some unorthodox, I suppose you could say, scientific. Well, I mean, he was anti-Darwinian, anti-Mendelian, very much the Lamarckian view of evolution. Although, so Lysenko is in the thesis is that
00:06:38
Speaker
As an organism, and Lysenko is mostly concerned with plants, as an organism grows, it acquires characteristics, which are then passed on to offspring. So there's no natural selection. There's no competitiveness in biology. You acquire characteristics as you go through life, and then you pass those characteristics on to your children. Now that sounds like the Lemakian theory of evolution, required characteristics, except Lysenko denied that.
00:07:06
Speaker
He said he wasn't inspired by Lamar. It's quite obviously he was inspired by Lamar, but he wasn't ostensibly Lamarckian because Lamarckian evolution was also bourgeois pseudoscience because it rested on Mendelian genetics.
00:07:24
Speaker
And that was the thing that Lysenko hated more was Gregor Mendel and his bloody genes. So I'm not entirely up on the history of science at the time because I know you had Darwin and others working on evolution by natural selection. You had Mendel working on genetics at the same time, although the two weren't aware of each other as far as I'm aware. So it wasn't until after Darwin's death, I think, that we had what they called the grand synthesis once you got
00:07:50
Speaker
Darwinian saying, you know, traits are passed down and then Mendel saying how that mechanism of that actually works. But in the 1920s, was the debate settled or was there still enough room? The debate basically was settled. OK, so he was quite going out on a bit of a fringe.
Lysenko's Influence and Soviet Support
00:08:08
Speaker
Yeah. So basically, Lysenko was an agriculturalist after the Soviet revolution.
00:08:16
Speaker
One of the big issues was farmers were no longer farming their land because one of the big things about the Soviet project was that people do the jobs they were told to do and you didn't hold on to your traditional labour or your traditional expertise. So farmers went off the land to work in factories and that had notable deleterious effects like famine and food shortages and so people were looking for people who were going to revolutionise agriculture in Russia
00:08:45
Speaker
under the Soviet, and Lysenko appears, starts giving talks at conferences about his rather remarkable theory of how agriculture should work,
00:08:59
Speaker
and Joseph Stalin loves him. So there's a particular conference that Lysenko goes to, he gives a talk, and Stalin stands up going, bravo, comrade, bravo, and clapping. And that's basically how Trof and Lysenko became the director of the Soviet Lenin All-Union Institute of Agricultural Sciences in about 1932.
00:09:21
Speaker
So he had, I understand, he had had sort of limited success for some of his theories, but there was something about, was it planting seeds earlier in cold weather to make them germinate faster? There was something he did, which apparently was a known practice that had been done before. He just sort of did it a little bit harder and got some success there. But then I understand he kind of said a lot of things and would come up with new theories fast enough that his old ones couldn't be shot down by people who actually knew what they were talking about.
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, one of the problems for critics of Lysenko, apart from the fact that they were executors, we'll get to that in a minute, was that there was a shift in goalposts about Lysenkoism. Lysenko kept on coming up with new agricultural theories. So by the time you could point out that
00:10:10
Speaker
his previous practice didn't work, he was already three novel theories away working on something else. So you could criticise an earlier thing, and Lysenko thought, yeah, but we're not doing that now, we're doing a different thing now. And so by the time you got round to working out what was wrong with that one, Lysenko had also moved on. So let's talk about Lysenkoism with pseudoscience.
00:10:33
Speaker
So as I said earlier, even though Lysenkoism seems awfully close to Lamarckian evolution, Lysenko denied that. He denied that to his death, he was not influenced or inspired by Lamarck, in part because Lysenko's real hatred was on Mendelian genetics instead.
00:10:54
Speaker
And so, as I said, he had this notion that characteristics you gain in life get passed on to your offspring. So there's no selection process of survival of the fittest that we see under Darwinian evolution, because Lysenkoism is also a perfectly socialist science. Lysenko was of the firm belief that biological entities of the same kind or class
00:11:22
Speaker
never compete and only cooperate. So you can't have natural selection because entities of the same kind or class cooperate. They don't compete. And so this ends up being something which fitted into the socialist project at that particular point in time. It was a Soviet science for a new Soviet ideal.
00:11:46
Speaker
Yes, and I remember, this is thinking back to high school science now, but the idea of altruism in old theories of evolution, the idea that things didn't compete, but things would do what was best, either for the species or whatever. So I understand he talks about the idea that plants are self-sacrificing, plants will allow themselves to die so that other plants can live and come up, and I assume he does that.
00:12:12
Speaker
I assume Lysenko thinks about that in sort of a cross-species way as well. One species will allow itself to die out so another species can come up. Well, he certainly thinks that of a generational thing within species. So older plants deliberately killed themselves. They euthanized themselves.
00:12:28
Speaker
so that they can then provide the compost layer for the next generation to come through. Canopies exist to protect young plants as they grow, etc. So yeah, you've got this kind of socialist cooperating working together thing. And then the other thing which is interesting about Lysenkoism is that it also contains the notion of vitalism and that Lysenko was the firm belief that non-organic material
00:12:58
Speaker
can spontaneously turn into organic material. So we mean rocks turning into plants or are we just about like how plants grow out of dirt or something?
00:13:09
Speaker
Let's just say it can be either. But also he was of the firm belief that vernalism was also true. So this was the notion that plants not only cooperate by euthanizing themselves, but they also give off vital essences.
00:13:28
Speaker
to help other plants grow. Other plants grow. So a rose gives off the essence of vitality to help other roses growing around it or wheat does the same thing. I see. It was also the firm belief that species change can occur spontaneously so barley can become wheat and wheat can become barley. He believed a lot of things. He did. Now
00:13:55
Speaker
Maybe we should move on then from the wacky things that Lysenko believed, because I think it's fairly clear at this point that his science was certainly nothing that would be accepted today. Let's say that much. I do want to go back. You mentioned the whole problem of altruism in early 20th century.
00:14:12
Speaker
evolutionary theory. So it was taken for a long time that we couldn't explain how entities cooperate, because that doesn't seem to work with the whole process of natural selection. And so a large chunk of the 20th century was trying to work out, is there any real altruism in nature? Or do things that appear to be altruistic, where biological entities help one another?
00:14:37
Speaker
Is that actually a selection process to help the individual survive? So is it the selfish gene? Some biosis and parasitism and so on. And of course, the latter part of the 20th century and beginning of the 21st century, people have put forward solutions to explain how altruism works using game theory and the like. So the kind of thing that
00:15:01
Speaker
Lysenko had issue with, with respect to Darwinian evolution in the 20th century, there are now well accepted solutions within evolutionary theory now.
Political Intersection and Criticism Challenges
00:15:14
Speaker
Okay, so now we can move on, which is, it's all very well and good pointing at Lysenko and laughing at how silly his scientific ideas were, but the real problem came in sort of the intersection between science and politics that this came up with, because Lysenkoism was essentially turning science into politics, or at least
00:15:36
Speaker
What scientific truth kind of became dependent on political truth? Yeah, so when Stalin makes Lysenko director of the Institute, he also effectively makes it illegal to criticise
00:15:52
Speaker
Lysenko or Lysenkoism, which meant that Lysenko himself was able to lead a series of purges and also executions of the adherents of the bourgeois pseudoscience of evolution by natural selection and Mendelian genetics. So some people were put into prison, some people were actually killed, some people were killed by simply starving them in
00:16:15
Speaker
in prison, so lock them up and just ignore them until such time that they literally waste away, which included a very famous Soviet botanist at the time, Nikolai Velilov, who was arrested in the 1940s and died in prison in 1943. And because of Lysenko's position, basically until Stalin died,
00:16:39
Speaker
you couldn't say a thing against him unless you were one very special class of person. That would be nuclear physicists? Yes. Why was that about? Well, because the nuclear physicists were the people who were doing the
00:16:55
Speaker
the bomb program and the last thing you wanted was to lose any of their expertise. So, physicists were allowed to express doubts about Lysenko and they wouldn't be touched. But anyone else from any other walk of life, you criticized Lysenko at your peril.
00:17:14
Speaker
And it wasn't. It wasn't even directly criticizing him. Like the study of the field of genetics was banned completely, wasn't it? So anyone who was a genetic scientist was, well, you're not studying this anymore. Go do something else. And if you complain, then yes, it's the gulags for you. So and then it sort of spread a bit further as well, didn't it? So the Soviet aligned other Soviet aligned countries sort of adopted it as well. Yes. And the problem was because it didn't work,
00:17:44
Speaker
It had fairly drastic consequences for people living in countries where Lysenkoism was practiced. Like food shortages, famines, people starving to death. Yes, yes. So that's, I mean...
00:18:00
Speaker
At the time, though, like in Soviet, I guess it was just like we said the shifting goalposts thing is how he got away with it there. If something wasn't working, well, it didn't matter because we're not doing that anymore. So we're doing something else. But the fact that he managed to get away with it for so long does seem to come down to politics more than anything. His was the theory that fit socialist Soviet politics. So his was the theory was declared true. And anything else gets each other in prison.
00:18:30
Speaker
And it kind of also fitted into the five year programs that would be instituted in economics, infrastructure build and the like. And that you would have an end goal after five years, we will do X or Y. New proposals would be put forward to show how you were going to achieve this thing.
00:18:49
Speaker
The failure of one five-year program simply meant another five-year program would be instituted, which meant that you could blame the failure of the program either on the science or the people working in the fields who just weren't obeying the rules correctly.
00:19:08
Speaker
And so you could insulate Lysenko from criticism by going, the theory works, people are just not doing it properly, which admittedly is what economists who believe in neoliberal trickle-down economics go. Look, the theory works just that people aren't doing it properly. So we'll try it again next time, and next time we'll get the results the theory predicts.
00:19:35
Speaker
So eventually, Lysenkoism did come to an end, thankfully, but as you say, basically it wasn't until Stalin died, and wasn't around to champion him. Yeah, so basically the year after Stalin dies, when Nikita Khrushchev is in charge of the party, they loosen the restrictions, at which point you can criticise Lysenko, despite the fact Lysenkoism is still kind of dominant,
00:20:01
Speaker
and at one particular point in time Lysenko kind of gets the air of Khrushchev and Khrushchev becomes a great crusading champion of Lysenko but still doesn't make it illegal to criticize him and then as time goes by mainstream genetic research in Soviet Russia starts to re-emerge
00:20:23
Speaker
and Lysenko becomes more and more unpopular with people who believe in the bourgeois pseudoscience of Mendelian genetics and Darwinian evolution to which point Lysenko is kind of stripped of his position as director of the Institute
00:20:40
Speaker
and basically goes off to work on a research farm outside of Moscow where basically he continues to practice Lysenkoism without anyone being around to get in the way and also no one being around to actually pay any attention to what he's doing and he eventually dies in 1976
00:21:00
Speaker
And by that point he's so much persona non grata in Soviet intellectual life that the party refuses to report his death for two days. I was born in 1976. You are the reincarnation of Trofenlesenko. I've always thought this comma that.
00:21:17
Speaker
That makes sense to me. And you are also a bourgeois citizen. Well, I'm pseudoscience personified. So in terms of conspiracy theory then, to wangle it around to the topic of this podcast in general, at the very least,
00:21:37
Speaker
People within the Kremlin did kind of know that this wasn't working sometimes,
Soviet Structures and Pseudoscience Flourishing
00:21:40
Speaker
wasn't it? Oh, yes. But it was very much, the realities were covered up in favour of the more palatable politics, or more palatable to them at least, politics. Yeah, and the thing was, so, A, as I said before, it worked really well for five-year plans.
00:21:55
Speaker
So if you're trying to invigorate the economy by inspiring the workers that this time there won't be any food shortages, Lysenko always had a new idea as to how to do agriculture. But also it kind of worked as a socialist theory for the sheer fact that the Lamarckian aspect of acquired characteristics meant that you could also apply it to the Soviet people themselves.
00:22:23
Speaker
So if you wanted to make a better Soviet Republic, then you wanted better Soviets. And what better way to make a better Soviet than to train people to be good Soviet citizens, and then they will pass that characteristic on to their children. Now this of course sounds awfully like eugenics. Ooh. And to Lysenko's credit,
00:22:50
Speaker
he was very anti the eugenics movement although once again he was only anti the eugenics movement because eugenics relies on Mendelian pseudoscientific genetic theory and was and was at that time popular in the in the west was we've talked about eugenics before on this podcast so that would have been would have probably fallen under your bourgeoisie pseudoscience category then
00:23:16
Speaker
And it was also politically useful because it was a Soviet science. It worked under socialist principles. Plants cooperate, they don't compete, thus it is communist in nature. So even if you know it doesn't produce the results it should be producing, and you've got a bit of a hankering that this means it's probably not a science, it's still a useful thing to promote to the people you are ruling.
00:23:44
Speaker
And I mean, this was pseudoscience sort of taking over politics on quite a large scale, but on a slightly smaller scale. I mean, it's the sort of thing we still see today a little bit. The business around climate change could be seen as this, to some extent, where
Modern Parallels and Reflections
00:24:01
Speaker
the people who most strongly object to the idea of climate change being real are also the ones whose politics are mostly against the sort of collective action that would be required to do something about it. But in smaller still, things like the tobacco industry and so on, there have been cases here where there has been, or even the petroleum industry with climate change stuff as well, there have been cases where industries
00:24:31
Speaker
have known that the scientific truth doesn't work in their favour and so have actively worked to sort of suppress that.
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, which is to point out that some people react to Lysenkoism by going, oh, that's just a problem with communism in case of, well, no, actually Lysenkoism was a problem with authoritarianism. It wasn't a problem of communist science. It was a problem of having people like Joseph Stalin, a non-scientific expert, deciding that this person is now going to be the biological reality for all research in the USSR at this particular point in time. And also,
00:25:06
Speaker
These kind of pseudoscientific things or cases where people cover up the fact that they know things work differently as you say with tobacco and the oil companies happen under capitalism as well. So it's not a problem of political ideology, it's a problem of structure and bad structures are found in all forms of governance.
00:25:33
Speaker
So I think we've mostly come to the end of the stuff we were going to cover. How did you wrap things up in your lecture then? What was the point of the lecture? Well, the point of the lecture was to actually start talking about conspiracy theories and cover-ups and to move on from a pejorative gloss on conspiracy theory.
00:25:52
Speaker
to pointing out to students that you know sometimes cover-ups actually do occur and sometimes the cover-ups are small and sometimes they're large. Some of these cover-ups are about scientific truths, all the motivations of the practitioners of science. This is where we moved into in the second lecture looking at scientific conspiracy theories
00:26:14
Speaker
which either concern a cover-up of the truth of what's really happening or how the world is or a cover-up about the motivation of the scientists practicing their particular work and then that gets us on to the discussion of well
00:26:29
Speaker
Actually, what is a science anyway? And what are these things called pseudosciences? What is pseudoscientific about a theory? And that's what we'll be covering in Monday's class if you happen to be a student of mine who also listens to this podcast, which might be the case. It's possible. At which point, why not mention that to me after class?
00:26:55
Speaker
Although by the time this is edited, I suppose it'll go out Monday morning won't it? So if they're key. Or even Sunday night. I suppose, yes. You're that key. Yes, so, Lysenkoism, eh? Bit rubbish. That resulted probably in a lot of deaths, a, from people being executed for not agreeing with it, and b, from people starving when it didn't actually work in practice.
00:27:17
Speaker
Yeah, 30 years of Lysenkoism must have been pretty tough. And as we were saying before the podcast, actually what's really fascinating about Soviet pseudoscience is that some of the stuff the Soviets did was pretty groundbreaking. The Soviet space program was amazing.
00:27:41
Speaker
I mean, there's a big difference between Soviet space program and the American space program. The Soviets were willing to risk a lot more. And that's because they didn't treat their cosmonauts in the same way that the Americans treated their astronauts. And also controlled information so much more so the world only ever got to hear about their successes and about their failures. And yet when it comes to biology for 30 years, things are
00:28:10
Speaker
They're not particularly progressive. In fact, they're really, really regressive, leading to lots and lots of deaths.
00:28:19
Speaker
So there we go. So I was going to say next week, it's the Nazis, but it's not because next week is the next week is Newsweek because we've done three regular topics. So we're sticking with our schedule. So next week we'll catch you up on conspiracy theories. Within the week after that, it'll be Nazi pseudoscience or at least a Nazi pseudoscience. I mean, there are so many pseudosciences from this particular point in time. I mean, we haven't even touched on gefetic stuff in the Soviet era.
00:28:47
Speaker
Ah, well the reason for that is that I have no idea what that is. Wow, maybe I'll educate you about that later. I look forward to it, I hope. So I think we've come to the end of this episode at least anyway. We have, but patrons get to learn even more about what's going on in the world.
00:29:06
Speaker
For one thing, we're going to talk a little bit about Josh's reaction to the TV show America Unearthed, which is a show which purports to uncover the real history of America by sometimes going to London to investigate Jack the Ripper. Then we're going to talk about further revelations about the Operation Burnham Incident that the New Zealand Defense Force was involved in, the topic of the book Head and Run by Nicky Hager and John Stevenson.
00:29:35
Speaker
We'll talk about how a Crown Agency did not conspire against people who conspired against it. And one of the leading DB Cooper suspects has died. Coincident? Yes. Very much yes. Well, I don't know. Coincidence? Old person died. Probably not a coincidence at all.
00:29:59
Speaker
We'll find out. We'll find out, yep. Stay tuned patrons. We'll drill down into this death. Human mortality. Coincidence or not? Conspiracy or cock-up? Mortality is always a cock-up. Yes, yes. Anyway, let's not get into the... And you know, we've made it all the way to the end of the episode without any sort of Yakov Smirnov and Soviet Russia reference.
00:30:20
Speaker
although in this case the Soviet-Russia reference would be in Soviet-Russia political pseudoscience results in the deaths of many people, so probably not much of a joke. No, unfortunately not. No, for the best, I think, for the best.
Closing Remarks and Support Encouragement
00:30:34
Speaker
So, apart from the usual reminder that if you actually felt like being one of our patrons and finding out about all the special stuff we talk about in our bonus episodes, you could do that. It would portray on, or even by using the Podbean native patronage system at conspiratism.podbean.com.
00:30:50
Speaker
Uh, but other than that, I think that all that remains is to say goodbye. Would that be right? Yes, I was trying to figure out how to say goodbye in good old Russian. Uh... Vladivostok? No, I know this. I do know this. Sorry, all the other Russian stuff has completely knocked the word from my mind, so I'm just going to have to say it in English then. Goodbye. До свидания. До свидания.
00:31:21
Speaker
You've been listening to the podcast's Guide to the Conspiracy, starring Josh Addison and Dr. M.R. Extended, which is written, researched, recorded and produced by Josh and Em. You can support the podcast by becoming a patron, via its Podbean or Patreon campaigns. And if you need to get in contact with either Josh or Em, you can email them at podcastconspiracyatgmail.com or check their Twitter accounts, Mikey Fluids and Conspiracism.
00:32:22
Speaker
And remember, it's just a step to the left.