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00:00:01
Rob Holland
71 Plays3 days ago
Thanks for listening to our episode with Rob Holland.
To keep up with or connect with Rob:
✨Rob’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertholland4/
To stay in touch with Meredith and Medbury:
Follow Meredith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meredith-farley/
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Subscribe to the Medbury newsletter: https://meredithfarley.substack.com/
Email Meredith: Meredith@MedburyAgency.com
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Transcript
Meet Mr. Keesby and Rob Holland
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi. It didn't freeze that time, did it? freeze It didn't freeze. Orvis froze so soft and quick. I can hear Kazeby. Is he purring? Oh, like a monster. yeah oh my gosh.
00:00:16
Speaker
He's just purring off the throne. My cat. Let's start with the cat first. What's the cat's name? Mr. Keesby. Mr. Keesby. Call him Mr. Keesby. He's a cat. He's not going to respond.
00:00:31
Speaker
So it's really up to you. And what's Keesby's owner's name? Keesby's owner's name is Rob Holland. Hi, Rob. He doesn't like when I talk about myself. Yeah, Keesby just left the room. Rude. Okay. I'm going to make you talk about yourself for a half hour. So fun.
00:00:47
Speaker
Great. i am happy to be doing this. We've talked about it for two years maybe, I don't know.
Rob's Career in Film Production
00:00:55
Speaker
plus to it And so before we jump in, I want to do two things, which is one contextualize listeners on our friendship.
00:01:02
Speaker
And then two, ask you to explain what you do, which is pretty fricking cool. And I'm always in awe of, but first you're one of my best friends from high school. Cool. Old school. Old school.
00:01:15
Speaker
Junior high. We've known each other forever. 20 years. Oh my God. 20 years. Oh my God. Okay. So I'm just now realizing that we didn't throw a massive party for our parody day friendship.
00:01:26
Speaker
Parody day. I love that. Yeah. I mean, that have been, were we 16 when we met? No. fa Yes. 15 or 16. So that would have been, um we missed it but we missed it by one presidential term.
00:01:37
Speaker
Yeah. Also, we went to prom together. We sure did. If I can find, think my mom has a picture. I should see if she'll send me it. fantastic. And I put it in the newsletter. Oh my god, absolutely. My silver tuxedo.
00:01:50
Speaker
Fantastic. I don't know why I wore a black dress with an orange bag and thought it was like avant garde. I don't know what was thinking. Because it was and you nailed it. Thanks. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:02:01
Speaker
All right. So audience context. known you forever, love you forever. Tell us all about who you are now, what you do, where you
Role in Visual Effects at Major Studios
00:02:11
Speaker
live.
00:02:11
Speaker
Okay. All right. So who am I now? I'm in my 30s and doing my best. I live out in Los Angeles by way of New York City for about a decade. And I'm a producer, you mostly in the post-production space. These days, i work in business development for visual effects.
00:02:28
Speaker
on the vendor studio side. So I'm a large part of my job involves reaching out to studios like Netflix, Paramount, Universal, interacting with their executives and their creatives on projects that are specifically in still in development or maybe early pre-production.
00:02:45
Speaker
where it's before they've gone to camera, they're just starting casting, they're just starting production design and locations, and they haven't really started thinking about visual effects. So my role involves working with the show runner or the director, going through the script, breaking it down, finding everything that you can't do in real life, like spaceship explodes. and Okay. Probably can't do that for real.
00:03:08
Speaker
Figuring out how that can be approached from a visual effects standpoint, both in terms of how does visual effects help tell the story on the screen? And then also logistically, financially, how can they accomplish what they need to do?
00:03:21
Speaker
How much time do they have? Where they need to shoot? Financial territory incentives, things like that. And then my output becomes a, is a creative plan of this is what the visual effects are going to look like. This is how they're going to tie in into the larger creative project.
00:03:35
Speaker
And then also a logistical plan and a financial plan. So if you do this visual, if you do visual effects in this way, this is how you need to shoot it. This is when you need to shoot it. These are the priorities of what's necessary on set.
00:03:48
Speaker
And then once everything's wrapped, this is how much it's going to cost. And this is how long it's going to take. And then from there, tuxedos on the red carpet.
00:03:59
Speaker
I feel like. I'm what percentage of films that most people have seen in the last 10, five years, do you think you have touched in some way?
00:04:11
Speaker
Very good question. Because there are a lot of movies and there are a lot of TV shows. I think the probably the better way to answer that question is more things have visual effects than I think most people probably realize.
00:04:23
Speaker
In fact, almost everything has visual effects of some kind. ah Visual effects can go from anything from like a big CG monster to like You know, somebody's driving in a car. They're not actually driving in a car. That's on a green screen stage. We have to shoot driving plates and it runs a pretty wide spectrum.
00:04:39
Speaker
And the studio that I'm with now, we have locations all over the world. I think a good to have north of a half dozen at this point. And we do a lot of volumes. so We do probably touch a lots of projects.
00:04:55
Speaker
Here's been my experience with you. There is one movie I can think of in the last five years where I said, Rob, did you work on that? And you said, no, just one. Which one was it? It was the new Superman.
00:05:07
Speaker
Oh, yeah. No, I didn't work Everything else, even Netflix stuff I've watched, you're like, yeah, we did a lot of neck work on that, an actress on that. We're not going to say the title, but it's not a real one.
00:05:19
Speaker
But I will say you've opened my eyes to the things. i was like, what do you mean neck work? You're like, yeah, it's really common. like Physically, we'll go in and touch things up, do the car thing. like So many things that I would just imagine are...
00:05:32
Speaker
I don't presume our visual effects, you have opened my eyes to how many elements of a movie really are. And you worked with, can we name some of the directors you've worked with or is that going to be a problem? I'm comfortable. at it I will name directors I've worked with at companies i not currently at.
Working with Renowned Directors
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah, let's do that. That's why i won't actually violate any release. So my, like the... The most, the one that thrilled film school Rob the most was when I was involved in mother, the Darren Aronofsky movie.
00:06:02
Speaker
That one was super fun for the most parts, like our interactions with the principal creatives will be limited to the very beginning of projects. And then maybe a little bit at the end.
00:06:12
Speaker
And then for the most part of the in between, when we're actually working on the projects, it'll level interact with the visual effects supervisor and the visual effects producer on the project. But mother was a fun and special case where they had, they had a big deadline they needed to get things finished up by.
00:06:27
Speaker
And because of the way everything had to work out, we actually got to like work in office with Aronofsky and is producing team and his director of photography. That one was pretty cool.
00:06:37
Speaker
It was, i did work with Ryan Coogler on the first Black Panther a few years ago. That one was really fun. And Let's see, what other the cool directors have I worked with that I can remember on the spot?
00:06:51
Speaker
This is the funny thing. Whenever somebody says, what have you worked on? yeah Oh, I know. I should probably pull up my own IMDb, shouldn't I? What have I worked on? That's all right. I think I just want, and what I want is for the audience to know that like you work on so many huge movies. You've worked with so many big directors and creators and you're in there doing interesting stuff.
00:07:11
Speaker
And what I'm super curious and even thinking, cause like i knew we were to have this convo. I appreciate the opportunity to get to ask you some basic questions. i feel like across our friendship, I haven't asked about your work, which is, so you went to, you and I did you,
00:07:26
Speaker
I did all my undergrad at Ithaca. You did one year, freshman year, but you were in the film TV, were you in their film program? I was actually in, so I did freshman year at Ithaca College and I was actually in exploration, exploratory. Oh yeah, exploratory major. Yeah, which is their version of undergrad.
00:07:43
Speaker
and And the second semester freshman year, I applied to both Ithaca's film school, which is a fantastic film school. And then I also applied to a film program at Savannah College of Art and Design.
00:07:53
Speaker
And due to a combination of, Ithaca being very cold during the winter and me getting slightly more scholarship at SCAD. I transferred down to Savannah, Georgia, finish out my undergrad at their film program.
00:08:09
Speaker
In high school, I can't remember. Did you always know you wanted to work in film or no? Then you're like, that's what you did. had no idea. It was actually the first time I realized that film was a thing was I had applied to Ithaca just because it seemed cool and
Rob's Path to Film as a Career
00:08:23
Speaker
got in and then decided to visit it.
00:08:26
Speaker
And it was like, okay, sure. Let's go see what this is like. And i remember being in like the registrar's office flipping through the course catalog and there was like cinema production major. And I was like, wait,
00:08:38
Speaker
Like movies? And they were like, yeah, man, that's like a thing that people, and I was like, wait, you can go to, hold on. You go to college for this? They were like, yeah, if you want to. yeah As long as the check clears, you can do whatever you want. Yeah. and up until that point, I had, i don't know, so I had always wanted to do something creative, but didn't really know what to do. I really enjoyed like writing and I really enjoyed like other forms of collaborative art. Like I liked playing music and working on projects with friends and things like that.
00:09:07
Speaker
And just never somehow met missed the one day where they, where people found out that like working in film was a thing. When I finally realized that incredibly late, it was like a little light bulb moment for me where i was like, Oh, I love movies and TV shows. They're awesome. I love collaborative arts.
00:09:29
Speaker
I love not having a real job. and And it all just fell into place. But the Realizing that was a thing and then deciding actually pursue it. There was a little bit of a gap between that.
00:09:41
Speaker
And funnily enough, the only reason why i decided to like actually roll the dice and pursue studying film and pursue a career in entertainment was actually due to my dad, which is pretty great.
00:09:55
Speaker
Do you remember, you've seen Orange County, right? Yes. The movie with Colin Hanks. Colin Hanks. Yeah. So Colin Hanks wants to be a writer, right?
00:10:05
Speaker
And his dad is hard ass stereotypical dad who's, you need to go and do something responsible. And he's, but I want to be a writer. And the dad's writers don't make any money. And he's like, a couple of them did.
00:10:16
Speaker
And the dad's, yeah, like two ever. And come I'm going to believe in myself. Heart to der. And then like the movie starts. So my dad and I had the exact same conversation, except for he was taking Colin Hanks' point of view and I was taking the hard ass dad.
00:10:32
Speaker
And you're like, I need something where i can make money. I like, you need to be responsible. I should be an insurance claims adjuster. This is ridiculous. Like art school, really? In this economy? My dad was like, yeah, but also come on.
00:10:44
Speaker
Why not? And I was like, good point. Like that's a wise man. Who's also a doctor. We should mention. I know. Right. And I was like, should not be a doctor. and he was like, you, maybe not you, maybe art school. No, just kidding. But yeah, my parents at the right moment believed in me more than I did. And I was like, okay, I'll trust you this far. might as well roll the dice on this too.
00:11:04
Speaker
And that was the push that pushed me over the edge and got to
00:11:11
Speaker
go to film school. And it was awesome. Sometimes I think, why didn't I go to, why didn't I do the cinema major? Why didn't you do the cinema major? Probably the same.
00:11:23
Speaker
I don't know. hindsight, I guess it worked out for me that I didn't, but I think i it could have, I still feel like one of my dreams is I write a screenplay, you direct it, we win an Academy Award. it's triumph in hardware Yeah, absolutely. a dream I don't know.
00:11:38
Speaker
have to give it some thought. Probably, I think, don't know if you ever felt this way, but just felt like there were invisible barriers to things. Even though like in middle school, high school, I was like, i don't know, i was super into a movies. I was like staying up late to watch Buffalo 66 on IFC.
00:11:54
Speaker
That is. IFC, that was it, right? Yeah, yeah that is on-brand Meredith. I know. But like I guess I just felt Like everyone who did a major like that already knew more than me or was like more ahead and I'd be behind somehow or I wasn't like really good. I don't know. Something. no i I know exactly what you mean. Like a film school that I wound up going to the film program at, excuse me, Savannah College of Art design and Design in Georgia. It's a film school within a fine art school.
00:12:21
Speaker
And like the first couple of years, like you don't even touch a camera for a little bit. You have to do all these. Oh, wow. foundational fine arts, like classical discipline classes. So had to like life drawing, draw from a lot models, learn how to sculpt marble, like color theory classes where to learn how to mix your own, make your own oil paints, like all sorts of like super weird, interesting things. And I, I vividly remember at a lot of those courses thinking, feeling exactly that way. Like I, one of the signpost moments of my first like few weeks at at SCAD was
00:12:53
Speaker
We're in some drawing class and they start basic because not everybody has experience with art, but you're in these classes with illustration majors, painting majors, architecture majors. These people have been studying fine arts and practical, practical disciplines like that for quite a while. And I took art class and school when it was on the schedule, but beyond that, like I had never really gotten deep into it. And they're starting at this class at SCAD, they're starting with the basics of three point perspective, which I've heard of, but like everybody else around me in this classroom is like rolling their eyes. It's like they, it's like you get to Harvard, they start like with the alphabet kind of thing. And they're like, are you kidding me? We're really starting here. And I was like, can you keep it down? I'm like taking notes. Cause this is the first time I've ever heard this. So there was a, I think that was probably one of the most enjoyable parts of going to Savannah's program was getting the chance to get really in depth.
00:13:52
Speaker
Training and education and all these different disparate disciplines that otherwise I would never have any exposure to. And I think that go into that program specifically is probably what helps.
00:14:02
Speaker
Would help my career or what helped her prepare me the most for my career more so than anything I might've learned like in the film program and their film program is great. Obviously I learned a lot, but like.
00:14:15
Speaker
training, like learning the design vocabulary and the artistic vocabulary, and then being forced to adapt that understanding to a bunch of different disciplines and mediums, really, it makes you a really adaptable thinker.
00:14:33
Speaker
And I think that's probably the skill set that I i wound up using the most, like early on in my career is figuring out how to understand the commonalities among a bunch of like different types of art and types of discipline and yeah I think that's a really cool thing yeah like after you graduated you moved to New York City right away yeah ah Yes, with a brief swing through San Francisco.
00:14:56
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Yeah. And then what was your first real, what did what were your first couple years after college? What were the jobs you were working? I graduated from an art school into the middle of the Great Recession.
Post-College Challenges and Breakthroughs
00:15:10
Speaker
So things were fantastic. Things were absolutely great. So for the first few years after college, before like I found my niche and things got rolling, I was looking for a way to work in entertainment and in the arts in a way that was maybe a little bit more, don't want to say like responsible, but a little bit more structured than the stereotypical go to Hollywood wait tables while you try to sell a script. I was looking for something that was a little bit more, don't The way I eventually learned to visualize this is yes, I'm taking the shot on myself. I went to film school. I want to work in the arts. I want to work in entertainment. I want to work in movies and TV shows.
00:15:53
Speaker
And of course, everyone has like the pipe dream, rock star dream, award winning producer, director, writer, all the statuettes and tuxedos on the red carpet and things like that.
00:16:04
Speaker
But I can also do basic math and understand that the numbers game makes that pretty unlikely. So I did have a lot of friends who who did do the go out to Hollywood.
00:16:15
Speaker
try to sell a script, try to make a movie, and just do odd jobs just to get by. And it but worked great for them. and They're seeing a lot of success and that's fantastic. But in my mind, I always viewed that as a little bit too binary for my comfort level.
00:16:29
Speaker
So what I wound up doing was I set up a path for myself that's operates in parallel where like, yes, obviously still aiming for the rockstar dream. Still, still want to believe myself as a creative and work towards making something that's wholly mine that I'm proud of. That's just because that's the point.
00:16:48
Speaker
If you're not working towards that, in my mind, if you've gone into the arts or if you've gone into entertainment and you're not keeping that's that pipe dream alive in your heart, that tiny flickering flame of optimism, then that's <unk> where's the fun and not doing that. But also if that didn't work out, then I wanted to be doing something more than waiting tables. Not that's not awesome, but I wanted to find a way to be a part of the conversation and process that maybe didn't require jumping straight to the top of the mountaintop.
00:17:20
Speaker
So the two paths I set up are every decision that I make career wise, I want to make getting to the end of the rockstar dreams slightly more likely, but also understanding that It's unlikely that one reaches the top of that ladder.
00:17:36
Speaker
So if I don't ever reach the top rung of the ladder, only make it like one, two, three rungs below. i want whatever that's role that I fill to be something that I would consider like a successful, fulfilling, productive career in the arts.
00:17:53
Speaker
So that's what wound up taking me towards, towards producing and When my career first got started in the first few years after college, it was, I did some odd jobs on different types of projects. Like I i worked in documentaries for a little bit. I did, i did some live production stuff for music acts. I did some music videos for small bands and I worked, I was in fashion photography for a little bit as a, as a videographer and production designer.
00:18:21
Speaker
And, and then one day. ah good friend of mine from college who was a animation student he had been but working as a freelance junior animator of smaller scale ad studios in york city and he was like hey you should be a producer any idiot can do it was it marsh it wasn't marsh it was johnny and i was like oh my god i'm any idiot this This was also at the end of a few internships that one that either didn't didn't seem like the type of work or the direction that would take me was something that was scratching the right edge or it was just a
00:19:03
Speaker
for other, any other number of reasons and unproductive, unpaid internship. And so my friend gives me the contact information of this associate producer, production coordinator, manager or something at a, at the small studio that he had been freelancing at.
00:19:16
Speaker
it was like, you should just email him and ask if you can be their production intern. And I was like, okay. So I emailed her and I was like, hey, can I be your production intern? And she was like, no.
00:19:27
Speaker
one those I was like, OK, got it. and Then the next week I emailed her again and I was like, hey, checking in. Can I be your production intern? She was like. No. And so we did this for months. I just emailed them like once a week.
00:19:42
Speaker
And then one week, she just called me out of the blue. I hadn't even sent that week's email. And I pick up the phone and she's like, hi, it's Blah Blah from Blah Blah Studio. We're not hiring a production intern.
00:19:52
Speaker
And was like, you guys are really getting efficient with this process. I didn't even send the email. She was like, I'm just going to let you know out of the gate, we're not hiring a production intern, but... We do have a big campaign that's shipping today.
00:20:03
Speaker
We have a lot of paperwork for some stock footage we need to clear. do you want to come in and help us prop process some paperwork? You can get a but little resume point for like production assistant and we'll buy you a cheeseburger or lunch.
00:20:15
Speaker
What do you say? And I was like, I'm on my way. So I went in did the paperwork. They didn't get me the cheeseburger. It was delicious. And then at the end of the day, I was like, okay, I'll see you tomorrow.
00:20:25
Speaker
And I just kept showing up. Are you serious? You never tell that story. Oh yeah, I haven't. Oh my God, I tell it to everybody. I love it. So yeah, so the next day I just showed up. And then they got security. I'm kidding. And I just sat down my desk and I kept doing more paperwork. And then at lunchtime they were like, cheeseburger, right? And I was like, yeah, man.
00:20:44
Speaker
I kept just showing up. And then a couple weeks later they were like, wait, are you our production intern? And I was like, yeah. That you remember? They were like, okay, how long are you here for? And I was like, a few months. They were like, great.
00:20:58
Speaker
and that Did you ever sign paperwork with them or did you ever get paid or anything? They got me cheeseburgers. Got you paid in cheeseburgers? This is back in the wild west days, right before they they made you start paying interns in New York. so how How did you pay your rent and stuff at that time? Did you have other I did. So I was doing, i was one of those dorks on the street trying to get you to sign up to, to, for charity and union square. was one of those guys. And then I was also doing script coverage for there's this like indie production company in a little bit north of New York city that they would get like script submissions from like managers and agents and writers and stuff. They don't have all, they don't have time to read all the scripts. So they hire this guy who basically does book reports for 30 bucks a pop.
00:21:41
Speaker
where I would read the script and I would do a one-page summary and then send it back. And then they would, every script that I did that for, got 30 bucks. So it would I would go to this internship.
00:21:52
Speaker
Oh, and I was also the overnight janitor at PetSmart. What? Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, I didn't sleep a lot during those years. So it was I would in the mornings, I would and during the days, I would go into the studio and I would do my little paperwork and get my cheeseburger for my internship that I hired myself for in the evenings. And on the weekends, I would be one of those guys at the clipboard three or four nights a week. I would be like the overnight pet hotel.
00:22:16
Speaker
Like I wasn't allowed to play with the dogs, but I had to make sure they didn't catch on fire. And then I had to mop the floors and and then tucked in there to close the gap on bills. I would do script coverage. And I would sleep.
00:22:28
Speaker
Never. Holy crow. Um, and then, yeah, so that's what that was. then from there, that internship lasted for a few months and they were amazing. And actually I still work with quite a few of those people from that studio. Like they're, they've now grown and they're out and about.
00:22:42
Speaker
From there, I got my first actual job with a salary at a, at a great studio called Perception. That was in, they were in Manhattan. Oh yeah. I went and met you there once. Yeah. It was real fancy.
00:22:56
Speaker
Yeah. and And I got hired there as their production coordinator. And from there things continued. Yeah. Man. I love that story of you just showing up.
00:23:09
Speaker
I don't think anyone, I don't think you could do that these days for a couple of reasons. One, there's fewer IRL offices. like Yeah, that's true. That's very true. You can't just show up in email. And two,
00:23:22
Speaker
I just feel like things aren't as cool anymore. feel like be it wasn't like It wasn't like your dad being like, you just got to walk in do a firm handshake and they'll give you a job and a 401k and a pension. You're like muscle doing it and you're like, I will do free work for you.
00:23:36
Speaker
It wasn't. They were also not okay with it then. just did it anyways, but not in a weird way. and I think that's the important part. But the... I don't know There's a, I distinctly remember like this sense of like isolation in trying to get a a career started in the arts when you're not like the one who won like the student Oscars. There's a lot of people that go to film school or advertising school or all other types of creative programs that are taught.
00:24:09
Speaker
They're like They get very well educated these disciplines and learn a lot about the this form of art and this creativity, but there's not a lot of connection from that to like how that creative industry actually functions in the real world.
00:24:24
Speaker
Or maybe there was, and I just forgot to take that class. Whatever the case may be, that was definitely like a big missing piece in my understanding of of the world when I graduated from college. I was like, okay, cool.
00:24:37
Speaker
I can make a movie. I don't know how to get somebody to let me. So there was a few years where it just, it felt very much like I was in like the foggy wilderness and trying to figure out how to do anything and how anything really works and fits together and how to actually find a way to productively apply all the things that I learned in a way that would feel fulfilling to me and would help me get started on any kind of a path.
00:25:00
Speaker
And it wasn't like six months after school, like this, that whole story I just told happened. This was maybe three or four years after I graduated. Like, I think I finished that internship and turned 25 the same week.
00:25:13
Speaker
I graduated from college before I started. I'm calling it an internship. You keep being like internship. But you're like, I'm obsessed with it. Sorry, keep going. And then I'm going to do it. there was a good like three, four years where I was trying different things and nothing was really sticking. Nothing seemed to resonate with me. Nothing really seemed to be the first step on any sort of path that was something that could even be followed, whether or not I wanted to follow it.
00:25:41
Speaker
And the whole time I'm going through this, I'm going through this alongside a lot of classmates and friends that have studied similar or the same thing who are also experiencing like the same kind of difficulty. And some folks were stubborn enough to stick it out. Some folks decided.
00:25:56
Speaker
to try something else. and And don't know, optimistic spite is I think the best way I would characterize the sensation that I had where, where when I finally got the, the tip that I should try to get a production internship at the studio, I was like, over it.
00:26:13
Speaker
I was fed up. I was like, not bitter, but I was like, more willing to take risks because i don't know if I'm allowed to curse on your podcast, but I was at the point where I was like, fuck this, fuck you. gonna do it anyways.
00:26:25
Speaker
And, but like in a non-sociopathic way, I hope. The people who I kept calling for an internship may characterize that differently. But, but it's, know, the bumper sticker version of it is, i don't know, make your own luck.
00:26:37
Speaker
But I think that's probably a bit too reductive. It's more had gotten so frustrated and exasperated with not making any progress, frustrated with myself, frustrated with this industry that I was having a really really hard time understanding, let alone breaking into that as that sensation progressed and got deeper, I started being more and more willing to like not be polite, not be rude, but not be polite.
00:27:02
Speaker
Like email your resume, you'll wait for a response. That's the decorum. and And I got to a point where I was like, I just like, I've tried that. I've tried that a bunch of times. Nothing really seems to be working. so Whether or not like it should be working clearly so there's a mismatch here.
00:27:19
Speaker
And so I just started trying more and more random things and hoping eventually something would stick. One of which was maybe I can just hire myself as an intern.
00:27:31
Speaker
Turns out I could. Pretty cool. here we are yeah I do feel like there is something in you two where I feel like you're very, you've always been really good at like there's something almost energetically like you're You're really good at like reading situations and understanding what is the expected thing here and verse how far can you take it in how far can you push something outside the bounds of the way people would expect someone to act and still have it be like reasonable or well received like you're brave in ah in that way.
00:28:00
Speaker
And that story like is funny, but it doesn't shock me. I mean, yeah, it's optimistic spite where I'm like, this will this might work. and That's the optimism. And then the spite is, and it's not spite at the world. It's spite at the the critic in the back of my own head. who was like, what are you doing, man?
00:28:18
Speaker
You should have just gone to freaking business school. What are you doing? Art, really? You're sitting here holding the bag with your film degree? Come on, guy. And so then I'm like, hey, little voice, how about get fucked? I'm just going to try weirder and weirder stuff to spite you.
00:28:33
Speaker
optimistic fighte I love it. I think it's a whole thing. that's good All right. I know we don't have a ton of time left. You, i appreciate that story quite a lot. And now you're on a journey. Do you think 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you would be surprised to see where you are now? Or do you think you you thought, no, he'll figure it out and he'll get there?
00:28:52
Speaker
Oh, that's a very good question. um both At that point, 10 or 15 years ago, i was aware of how stubborn I am.
Strategic Career Growth in Film
00:29:00
Speaker
And I was like, we'll figure something out. Who knows what it's going to look like.
00:29:03
Speaker
But like, one of the reasons why I was so insistent on getting that production internship at that studio was because that was the first time it was a web based ad animation and like, post production studio didn't really do anything in TV or film.
00:29:23
Speaker
But the disciplines were very similar. And that was the first thing that I had had a lead on that I could see a path connecting that position with my end goal at the time, which was do anything in movies and TV show in any capacity.
00:29:40
Speaker
that's where my That's where my brass ring had to be been redefined to at that point. And I was like, okay, I can get this internship somehow. And then from there, I can get a job as a production coordinator.
00:29:53
Speaker
And then from there, I can get a job as a producer. And that will make me a producer in the post-production animation and visual effects space for advertising. From there, I can continue moving up among both tier of project and tier of studio in New York city until I'll get to one of the major studios in New York city that also do advertising and movies and TV shows.
00:30:15
Speaker
And then when I get in one of those, then I'll move laterally from advertising over to movies and TV shows. Then from there, I'll drop off the advertising and I'll move to studios that only do film and television.
00:30:26
Speaker
And then from there, I'll move to the very front end of projects, which which is where the most creative, for a producer, the most creative exploration of visual effects happens.
00:30:39
Speaker
It's when the project is still a script, you're breaking it down, you're working with the director or showrunner, and you're figuring out how... visual effects will help tell the story because that's the part of it that I care about is is telling stories in movies and television, because that's what I really like to do.
00:30:56
Speaker
And back at that internship, sitting at my desk doing the paperwork and eating my free cheeseburger, I was like, I can get there eventually. But it seems really unlikely because there was, that was 15 years ago. That was quite a long, quite a long path to look down.
00:31:10
Speaker
And if you had asked me then, if I got to the end of that path that I just described, which is the job that I have now, I would have been like, wow, that worked. Okay, cool. i thought But also sweet. If I can do at least that fine.
00:31:27
Speaker
Like I will at this point consider that like a total success. Now that I'm on the opposite end of that, not even close. If I'm doing by that what I'm doing now is I really like it. I find it fulfilling and engaging.
00:31:41
Speaker
It's not what I want to be doing forever. And it's not what I consider to be the end goal. In many ways, I actually feel like I'm right back at that point. beginning because I finished the path that i sketched out on the map way back then, 15 years ago.
00:31:58
Speaker
And the only reason why that path didn't go further back then was because I didn't know what was next. So on the little like write up that I did, I was like, okay, if you make it here, then from there, you can figure out what you want to do next.
00:32:11
Speaker
But first you have to get there. So was like, okay, get there, 15, get go all the way through it. And now I'm at the very end and I'm like, Okay, what's next? But it definitely feels a lot less intimidating and scary than it did back then.
00:32:24
Speaker
And just like the fun parts, the exciting parts of
00:32:30
Speaker
figuring out what's next. but That was super good and interesting. It's funny when you're talking about I'm getting a visual. Okay, question. Did you actually write it all up? Did you have like, you did? Did you have it?
00:32:40
Speaker
Oh, maybe. Maybe. can try to find it. It's reminding me of a Bottle Rocket where on the bus scene they walk through the like 50 year plan.
00:32:51
Speaker
you remember that? I wonder what third Wes Anderson movie you're going name drop. Have I mentioned another? Buffalo 66. That's Vincent Gallo, my friend. yeah What was I thinking of then?
00:33:06
Speaker
Steph cut this part out too. Yeah. Is there another Wes Anderson movie with like something with a like and a number? Is Bottle Rocket the one with like Schwartzman and Bill Murray?
00:33:18
Speaker
That's Rushmore. but Yeah, Rushmore. I was thinking when you said Bubbles, I just like, I thought Rushmore. Cut all this out. I'll get canceled. ah But it is, and also too, I feel like it's cool to think of it i as you're talking about the way you got to where you got.
00:33:34
Speaker
It's almost like you're describing a video game and it's don't die because you have to go back to the beginning. But you've made it all the way through to all the levels. Pretty cool. yeah I made it the safe point. Yeah. And now you're like, okay.
00:33:45
Speaker
Okay. Now what? Yeah. and Which is a fun problem to have. And i don't know. The one thing that I heard in college that made the whole massive pile student loans worth it was i had a TA who said we were, it was some, don't know, some film critique where somebody was frustrated with their project because they had notes on it.
00:34:04
Speaker
And we had just screened it and we're doing the critique and they're like, what do you think about your own film? he's like, I hate it because there are things that I did that that I want to do differently or better. So it's therefore bad.
00:34:15
Speaker
And the TA was like, but you're always supposed to think that. Like this kid's mind was like, well, he's like, what do you mean? It's what I want to make something that's perfect. And they were like, yeah, as soon as you think that what you made is perfect, like that's at the point where you stop making progress.
00:34:29
Speaker
And that was said in the context of making a discrete piece of art or writing. But I think that kind of is a lot more broadly relevant. And the reason why that stuck in my brain so much is like i whatever I'm at, at a studio or in a role or something that starts to feel easy or like I'm one of the more experienced people in the room or one of the more senior people in the room, I start to get like really anxious and stressed because I don't really have any interest in just finding equilibrium and rolling with it.
00:35:06
Speaker
I think the part of... life and career that's that really resonates with me is like the constant journey of trying to find ways to do something bigger than what you're currently doing and do something different or build on it or expand on it. Like I think I have a chronic fear of of arresting Wednesday and yeah.
00:35:33
Speaker
It's a stressful way to live, but it's also more interesting because it's it took me through a lot of really interesting jobs and projects and studios. It took me into a lot of like really cool cities. It's helped me meet like a lot of some of my most favorite people in the world.
00:35:49
Speaker
I've met working alongside them or working with them when they were on the production side. And yeah, it's fun to always be on the lookout for how you can move yourself forward or move your work forward.
00:36:03
Speaker
And i don't know, it's also helpful to use that as a reframing device. So I get less mad at myself when I'm frustrated. Didn't work. I'm like, no, that's the point, which sometimes little bit a crutch, but.
00:36:17
Speaker
No, I like that. I'm even thinking of it in terms of Medbury and our work. There's always things where I'm like, we could evolve this. We could do this a little bit better next time, et cetera. And I do think that often that makes me feel like shit. I'm like, oh, I, we didn't get it perfect. And I'm like, after all this time and marketing, I didn't get this. And it's not big things, it's little things. And then, but the idea that it's always, I like the idea of, I find comfort in that thought of like, anytime you're creating something that you will have self notes that you can work on for next time.
00:36:46
Speaker
And like, all right. So I know final question. I know it's a strange time for the film industry. If there's a and little a young person out there who's graduating soon with the same degree that you had what and they like what do I do what would you tell them to do Anybody who tells you what the film or television or entertainment industry is going to look like in the next few years due to streaming landscapes changing, consolidation of studios, advent of AI coming into production and post-production and creative.
00:37:21
Speaker
Anybody who tells you that they know what that is going to look like when the dust settles is lying because nobody knows. and yeah Sorry, continue. Of course. And there's... There's a lot of, I think, justified uncertainty and fear around like how these things are going to affect what has historically been a pretty relatively stable kind of recession proof industry.
Impact of Streaming and Role of AI
00:37:46
Speaker
For example, the streaming wars that just came to their unceremonious conclusion over the last few years. But for a while we had, we had Netflix, we had HBO Max, Peacock, everybody competing to spend, to make a huge content library to attacks, attract subscribers.
00:38:01
Speaker
That basically is what it looks like when you take a business model that works, which is broadcast television, cable television, turning over into syndication and then residuals. Like this is a model that was self-sustaining that worked that didn't really need to be changed.
00:38:18
Speaker
And then tech came in and just broke it in favor of a speculative business model with no actual path to profitability without going through this jungle of like massive deficit spending to race to basically hungry, hungry hippos and gather up every single subscriber.
00:38:34
Speaker
We're still reeling from from that massive disruption when ai kind of came out of the scene in the last few years, when studios realized that there are infinite people in the world with seven bucks a month, seven bucks a month, 18 bucks a month to spend on their streaming service. So you can't just operate in this mode of infinite expansion will eventually lead to profitability because you've run out of people on the planet who are willing to subscribe to Netflix.
00:39:01
Speaker
So there's there has been a lot of kind of wreckage and second and third order impacts and consequences of that, that were really disruptive.
00:39:11
Speaker
But if you're going to acknowledge that, we also have to acknowledge the massive benefit of what the beneficial side effects of like this traditional model being broken in favor of this speculative model with no end in sight. And the benefit is for a few years there, they were green lighting absolutely everything, which meant that previously, what, four or five broadcast networks, a good handful of of premium cable networks, and that was it for television. Those were the only distribution channels that were out there. You got a buyer list that's maybe in the high single digits, low double digits, and they have a certain amount of airtime.
00:39:52
Speaker
There's only 24 hours in a day. So you could only fit in most 48 half hour shows or 24 hour long shows. And that's it. So if you're not. Being at one of those places, it's very hard to get something made.
00:40:05
Speaker
Then Netflix came along, everything broke. There was now infinite amounts of our time because we have we have streaming, there's infinite streaming services. The buyers list grew exponentially, which meant that a lot of things that would never reach green light in broadcast world were suddenly They were like, yeah, here's millions of dollars, go make this.
00:40:27
Speaker
And because of that, so many different artists got to make projects that we never would have been able to see before. Like an incredibly high number of Writers were able to start working. Directors were able to start working. Showrunners were able to start working. where Whereas otherwise, they might have been capped due to Aspier numbers.
00:40:48
Speaker
And we've also seen like massive technological disruption come through entertainment. And it worked out in like really positive ways, ultimately. Yeah, we don't shoot movies. Most movies and TV shows aren't shot on film anymore because film is prohibitively expensive.
00:41:03
Speaker
The people who... You know, ran the developing houses tell us any operations for developing film and transferring it to like tape and stuff. There's less work for them, but there's also a lot more work and a lot more access to the infrastructure required to make something, which means that there's a slightly more democratized approach to.
00:41:25
Speaker
to making things that requires less resources, it requires less permission, and it lets people make something at a level that would have been incomprehensible 30 years ago for like pennies these days.
00:41:38
Speaker
And i think the best example of that is, did you see Enora? Yeah. Yeah. So Sean Baker wrote, directed, edited everything to Enora, won a million Oscars for it.
00:41:50
Speaker
Enora wouldn't have existed without Tangerine, which was Sean Baker's first feature film. I think if I'm wrong, don't come at me at the comments, but i'm pretty sure that's his first feature film.
00:42:00
Speaker
And the only reason why he was able to make Tangerine was because the iPhone 5 had a decent enough camera sensor that if you just tack a lens onto the back of it, you have a theatrical grade film camera.
00:42:14
Speaker
So it's not even like he had to, he didn't even need to like rent or figure out how to buy a really high end digital cinema camera. He used his iPhone.
00:42:24
Speaker
And because of that, he was able to make Tangerine, which is a movie no studio would have invested a ton of money into because its it doesn't check any of the boxes that that the executives are like, oh, four quadrants, demographics, and above looks math.
00:42:39
Speaker
How will we get our... r roi or whatever that was a question that tangerine wouldn't have been able to answer to their satisfaction but because technology had advanced to the point where he could just shoot it on an iphone 5 he didn't need to answer that question therefore he was able to make tangerine and now we have tangerine which is a beautiful weird amazing little movie and that got sean baker started and that led him to anora which You know last year or the year before, at remember, was recognized as best picture and best in a whole bunch of categories. And in in the previous system, before streaming, before digital cameras, before even even the last 30 years, like you go back to the film days, Sean Baker would not have become
00:43:25
Speaker
probably would have had a much harder time becoming you know the artistic voice and creative visionary that he's able to be today because he would have been gatekept out of it.
00:43:36
Speaker
So I think there's a lot of lessons that we can look at in previous phases of technological advancement and industry disruption that we can project forward and use those to see what the silver linings are for for the future amidst all the doom and gloom.
00:43:53
Speaker
Yes, AI is going to disrupt a lot of things in all industries and entertainment is no different. Things will look different. Some roles will change. Some roles will go away. Some roles will be created.
00:44:09
Speaker
We don't know what those are yet. We don't know how those are going to function, but we will find a new equilibrium. And in my maybe naively optimistic point of view, I think there's a lot to potentially look forward to if we can make it through all the horrifying bits.
00:44:28
Speaker
And for me, the thing that I'm the most excited about is seeing that democratization of resources and storytelling capability increase even further beyond what was, what was provided by computers advancing and cell phones becoming something you can shoot a film on. Now we're going to get to a point where I think in the near future, even more things that we can't even visualize right now are going to become possible and accessible. And there's going an entire generation of storytellers who grow up with those as native tools.
00:44:58
Speaker
And I think used correctly and implemented correctly, AI tools and and things like that will work as creative force multipliers. We're never going to get to the point where somebody hits a button and a whole movie comes out.
00:45:10
Speaker
Just when CGI came along, you couldn't just hit a button and a spaceship comes out. You still have to have artistic oversight. It's a lot easier than making a whole spaceship because it's in a computer, but you still require artistic expertise, creativity, understanding of of the medium and when and how to implement things to make it make it tell a story worth listening to and i when I think about it like that, I'm optimistic about the types of stories that we're going to get to see and the types of storytellers that are going to be able to tell the stories that are meaningful to them.
00:45:44
Speaker
I struggle to see that as anything other than a very good thing for all of us. So not to say that there will still lot be a lot of horrifying things that come out with AI disrupting so many industries and so many parts of our life, but If that's the silver lining, then that that part at least, I think I'm looking forward to. So for people who are just coming out of film school or just considering getting into the arts or into entertainment, I would say the ones who've succeeded in the past
00:46:15
Speaker
have been the ones who have been able to embrace new tools, new platforms and new capabilities and find out and work out how to use them effectively to tell a better story.
00:46:28
Speaker
And if that's the North Star, then everything's going to be fine. I like it. Cool. Would you say you are
00:46:39
Speaker
spitefully optimistic or is it just optimistic, optimistic? There's not a little bit of spite. What's the point? I agree. Spice, a good little spice to throw on. It's like a little energizer. like it yeah Exactly. Exactly. need a little bit of static.
00:46:52
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Rob, thank you so much. This was great. Of course. Thank for having me. Anything else want to say before we hop off? I will put your LinkedIn if anyone wants to chat with you in the show notes, anywhere else that we should direct them.
00:47:05
Speaker
I think LinkedIn is probably the best way to get in touch with me because I do have a website, but i don't remember if it's live. Probably is LinkedIn. Let's go with LinkedIn. And I'm always, yeah, if anybody listening is getting started in the arts or in entertainment and if anything I've talked about in my experience, getting started in the frustration and like...
00:47:26
Speaker
mystification of what we're supposed to be doing resonates with you. Please feel free to reach out because it's always fun having the chance to be the person I needed when I was younger.
00:47:38
Speaker
So more than happy to to help people avoid stuff. Stephanie, that's helpful. Say it again? Your DMs are open for mentorship.
00:47:49
Speaker
Exactly. Hit me in the chat. Okay. Thanks, Rob. Bye. right