Transcript
Nate: Thank you for joining us on the podcast. don't you tell us a bit about yourself and what got you started in your career?
Chris: Yeah, sure, Nate. Thanks very much for having me and for reaching out. More than happy to have a nice chat to you this morning. um So for those of you who don't know, I work for major airline in Australia.
Chris: It may have a kangaroo and a red tail on the back of the airplane. And I've been there now for 24 years, currently a 737 captain um flying domestically around Australia.
Chris: ah That's little about what I'm doing now. But if I wind it back to when i was about six or seven, so that's a long, long time ago, and that was last century, I had my grandparents over from New Zealand. So my grandma and my granddad on my mum's side are Kiwis.
Chris: And they were over from New Zealand. And um we don't have any ah flying connection in our family at all. My dad was a businessman from Hong Kong.
Chris: Mum grew up in New Zealand. But my grandfather was in the New Zealand Air Force in World War II. Now, he was a mechanic. So he had nothing to do with airplanes or anything like that. He was working on the trucks in the South Pacific.
Chris: um And so he he was over for a visit in Sydney long, long time ago. And we went down to ah hobby shop in in Sydney where I live.
Chris: And cause I was interested in aviation, we bought ourselves a model airplane. And it was an airplane that he was quite close to um in the war being obviously in the air force. It was an old RAF bomber, it was a Lancaster bomber.
Chris: I'm sure some of your viewers probably know what that is, World War II four engine bomber. So we bought ourselves a little ah model kit and we built it over a weekend. And we painted it up, we put the stickers on and and whatnot. And I spent a good 10 hours from my grandpa doing that. So that was really cool.
Chris: And I thought, wow, this is a pretty cool little kit to have. and was kind of interested in airplanes. So and we sat down and had a chat about what they did and and so on. And then from there, I think building that little model airplane spawned my massive interest in aviation. So I think if you get to where I am,
Chris: I think you have, it's probably genetic as well. I think ah you have to work so hard and have so much persistence that it's probably ingrained in you to start off with. So ah we built that.
Chris: And from there on, from seven up until now, I've always been interested in planes. So, yeah, finished primary school, went through high school, got more interested, did lot of research.
Chris: I was lucky enough to take my first flying lesson when I was 16 in Sydney. And I was just oh probably a time-honored cliche, I got hooked.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: So yeah, no turning back from there.
Nate: and turning
Chris: So first flying lesson. And then I got my first job when I was in year 11 at school. So year 11 and 12, I worked in a restaurant and I washed dishes, right? And I probably washed 3000 dishes per flying hour that I paid for. I was on three bucks an hour flying back in the 1980s with 60 bucks an hour. So I had to work 20 hours for every lesson, trying to squeeze that in with school work was hard. So I did a couple of lessons every few weeks and then built my hours up.
Chris: I got my private license when I was at high school, went to uni, uh, worked on my commercial license at uni. So it was all self-funded. eight I didn't, uh, didn't go through any other way.
Nate: Thank
Chris: um And I, yeah, just worked and worked and worked, got my, worked on my commercial license. And indeed, actually after after school, in 1987, when I finished high school, now, I don't know if you remember, but in 1987, a movie came out called Top Gun, okay?
Chris: And it was the best recruitment movie apparently for the US Air Force and Navy ever. And I thought, wow, I've now got like, you know, 60 flying hours and a private license.
Chris: I am it in a bit with my aviating. So I'm gonna try and get to the Air Force. So as as an aside, that the day I left high school, I went down to the recruitment office in Sydney.
Chris: I walked in and obviously there was Army, Navy and Air Force. And the, I think, Sergeant, recruitment Sergeant at the desk said, what service do you want to join? said, Force. He said, yeah, are you about the hundredth person that's coming today that wants join the Air Force?
Chris: Have you seen Top Gun? Yeah, i've seen Top Gun. That's why I'm here.
Nate: you
Chris: Cool. And I thought, yeah, look, I'm just going to go fly fighter jets. So I went across to the Corporal, the recruitment Corporal in the Air Force, and I sat down and she said to me, what do to do in the Air Force? I said, I want to fly fighter jets. want to go fly the Hornet because I think you've just got the Hornet.
Chris: looks pretty cool. I had no idea what I was saying, no idea what it was all about, but I thought that'd be a good job. And she said, look, don't bother. You might as well just walk out now. Don't bother. And I said, oh, okay.
Chris: Why is that? I was pretty pretty hit by that comment. you know, smack in the face from the Air Force straight away. She said, because you wear glasses, and I had glasses because I had to get them when I was learning to drive, um we're not taking any air crew with eyesight correction because we have, I don't know, 10 to 15 spots to fill this year and we've had 3,000 applicants.
Chris: And the best way I think for the Air Force to cull applicants is the minute they walk through the door, if it's a medical issue, easy, get rid of you. So my Air Force career lasted 47 seconds. Okay. And so after that, um I did five years at university.
Chris: ah did, I became an accountant actually before I ever flew. So I did finance and accounting, but during my uni career, I worked i worked and worked and worked obviously a couple of jobs. And then ended up getting a commercial license when I was at university um and became an accountant. And my parents coming from a good Chinese family said to me, you're not going to go flying. You need to get a degree and get a proper license.
Chris: proper profession behind you.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: And this flying rubbish, no, you don't need to do that. You know, that's just a bit of a pie in the sky, schoolboy idea. So off you go, become an accountant. And I couldn't argue with that, you know, coming from that sort of that sort of tiger parent background.
Chris: um So i ended up with 175 hours by the time I was 22, finished uni. And then I actually moved to Hong Kong. And I worked for a large accounting firm, one of the big six accounting firms back then, because I'd done accounting at uni.
Chris: I hated every minute of it, to be honest with you, but I managed to save some money up to pay off my license.
Nate: Thank you.
Chris: um And then I went back to Australia after three years in Hong Kong, had a stack of cash, which was good, paid my debts off. And at 25, I moved back in with mum and dad and I started the really difficult um process of trying to find a job in aviation.
Chris: Now, I learned to fly in the late eighty s early 90s, I was back in Australia in 1995 and there were no jobs in aviation all, which is way it worked and the way the times were.
Chris: So i I went to a little general aviation airport at Bankstown in Sydney where they had flying schools and charter flying and I just started the general aviation career.
Chris: So I think i became I got an instructor rating, so I had to pay for that. Then I got my multi-engine instrument rating, which of course you need to go flying as well, paid for all of that.
Chris: So self-funded the whole way through, took me eight years to get all my ratings.
Nate: me.
Chris: So, um you know, and in my mind it was, I just want to fly, I just want to fly, i just want to fly. Then I had this other career, what do I do? But I actually dumped accounting and said, right, I'm going to go for it. So 1995, got my first instructing job in general aviation,
Chris: um difficult because I did maybe two hours of instructing a week and at 25, having come from finance in Hong Kong, earning pretty good coin, the first year in general aviation, my entire paycheck, and I've actually written it down here, was $6,100 for the year, right?
Nate: a hard cut.
Chris: And I actually had to move it back in with mum and dad at 25 and that was hard too, you know, and they were finger pointing going, told you, told you, wasn't going to work out, was it?
Nate: no
Chris: So did that. Obviously, you put a lot more study in. You get these, you have to go and then do a theory course if you want to get to the airlines. Could the ATPL theory, the airline transport pilot's license theory exams.
Chris: I think there are seven or eight. ah Did that part-time study, did it by correspondence. So normally you go and do a classroom sessions for each of those exams. I had to do it all by correspondence because working a couple of jobs.
Chris: So that took a year. I ended up working for six years in general aviation. um Flying two-seaters instructing and then multi-engine instructing. Then I went on to charter flying and what we call bank running. People may be familiar with that that term. That's just flying finance documents from Sydney out to all the Western New South Wales country towns.
Nate: well.
Chris: you know So back in the olden days, in the 80s and 90s, we still had checks. you know, and there were still bank documents that had to be transferred between head office in Sydney and and the branches out in the country. So i used to do that, you know, you'd fly out in the morning, couple of hours, three or four stops, have all day in rural Kenya or Burke or Maury, uh, and then fly back in the evening. So so it was a long day, 12 hour day, but you need to get your hours up.
Chris: So I did that. Um, kept working a few jobs, had a couple of teaching jobs and finance jobs. And then, ah Six years later, I applied for Qantas, okay, which is the kangaroo in the red tail.
Nate: right.
Chris: I've just mentioned it. And it took me a year to then get into the airlines.
Nate: and
Chris: um In my last year, I was really lucky enough to fly on ah in a charter organization, flying DC3s. Now, I don't know if anyone knows what a DC3 is, but It's a 1930s original airliner, hold about it holds about 30 people, big tail drag, so tail wheel, two big radial engines.
Chris: Then they were used in the war a lot, the Second World War. And I was lucky enough to get a co-pilot job flying those for my last year of general aviation, just doing air tours around Australia for cashed up pensioners.
Chris: back then. So from 1995 to 2001, I worked in GA and then 01 got the golden ticket and I joined Qantas, uh, from there.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: Uh, and I went for, I had two and a half thousand hours. I went from light aircraft and lucky enough for me, I got put onto the 747 400. Uh, so i went from six seaters to 366 seaters. You know, everyone wants to fly the jumbo.
Chris: I became a second officer on the jumbo.
Nate: yeah
Chris: Um, in 2001 and I've worked on my way through the jumbo. I became a first off on the 767, flew that for nine years all around Australia and Southeast Asia.
Chris: Then I went to the A380 and flew that for three years and that was really good. Went up to Europe, ah Dubai, Middle East, across to LA and Dallas. um Then I left the A380 and was lucky enough to have a Dreamliner with Qantas.
Nate: Hmm.
Chris: with quos um So flew the Dreamliner. I became a trainer on the Dreamliner. So I was lucky enough to do pilot training on that and license checking. Did that for six years.
Chris: ah COVID was in the middle of that. So that was a difficult time ah for all of us. And then two and a half years ago, upgraded to captain. on the 737. So now I'm doing that flying domestically around Australia. So my career started in 1995. It's now what, 2025?
Chris: So 30 years so far and I've got another 10 to go.
Nate: Where do I start? So many follow-up questions.
Chris: know. Yeah, right.
Nate: So you see you self-funded um all your way through.
Chris: Yes.
Nate: That's amazing. That's such a such an expensive, I suppose, at that point hobby to have, um knowing it's going to lead to to eventually to the career that you're dreaming of.
Chris: Yes. Yep.
Chris: Yeah. Well, hopefully it does because there's a lot of people in my position where it doesn't, you know, and they they don't get to the airlines or they their applications are ah not proceeded with and whatnot, you know, and I'd say there's a large percentage of people that start but don't actually move on through self-choice or they're just at the right place at the right time.
Nate: And
Nate: yeah.
Nate: Yeah. Oh, that's it. I get a lot of careers. A portion of it all comes down to good timing, doesn't it?
Chris: yeah
Chris: It does. And I think looking back on my career, don't know if this works in every other career, but it's actually sometimes in life better to be lucky than good. Yeah.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: You know?
Nate: So what about the commercial part? So yeah you said you had to do sort of extra, try go private license first, then you moved commercial training.
Chris: Yes.
Chris: Yes.
Nate: what ah What did that look like? What did that component look like?
Chris: Um, so you get your private license comprises, I think it's still the same these days of 50 to 60 hours. Okay.
Chris: And then if you self fund, I had to then do up to 200 hours for my license. Okay.
Nate: Hmm.
Chris: Now we'll probably talk about this a bit later in the interview, but there's other ways of going about getting your licenses. So was funny because back in 1991, when I had a private license, I applied for cadetship at work.
Nate: Right.
Chris: Okay. And that was going to be a 50 week course, um, funded a bit by the airline, self-funded a little bit, and then you're pretty much guaranteed a job once you finish. So it was an easy way to get into the airlines. Uh, and funny thing was I didn't even make it past the aptitude test.
Chris: Okay. So I got this letter in the mail when I was 21 saying, thanks for applying. Fortunately, we're not proceeding with your application. didn't pass the aptitude and psychometric testing. We actually don't recommend this career for you as a career because of your results.
Chris: And it's gonna be very difficult for you to pursue this career based on your personality and aptitude, okay? That was 91, okay?
Nate: That's bit rough.
Chris: okay
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: ah was It was a bit rough. And, you know, the nice thing is now I get to command an airplane in this same airline 30 years later.
Nate: yeah
Chris: So, yeah, anyway, that's probably just my maturity back when I was 21. um But from private commercial, I then had to self-fund 140 hours. And it was basically just going out to my flying school and hiring the airplane with an instructor and building up your skills in navigation.
Chris: and flight management, um night flying. Then of course you do instrument flying after that, but it's just building experience.
Nate: The experience,
Chris: It took a couple of years for me to do all that, obviously, because i was doing it part time. um But you have to do then your commercial license subjects, which are a little bit harder than your private license subjects. It's the same so content, but ah you need to be a little bit more accurate um and it's a bit more technical and advanced in terms of nav, aircraft performance, aircraft systems, meteorology and and so on and so forth.
Chris: um I think if you come out from an integrated course, it's 170
Chris: I had to do 200 hours. um And it's, yeah, again, it's just, it's more study and you need to be a bit more accurate with your flying.
Nate: and glad you I'm glad you mentioned the bumps in the road there because I've been coaching some some clients trying to get through the interview process to be pilots and ah cabin crew as well.
Chris: Yes.
Nate: And it's not it doesn't always go to plan, but it's just a little reminder to stick with it.
Chris: No.
Nate: like You don't give up on the first hurdle, you just double down.
Chris: No.
Nate: You've got to keep up.
Chris: Yeah, that's it. That's exactly right. And, you know, you just got to be prepared to fail stuff. Okay. And work out how you're going to deal with it. So if I fast forward to a couple of years ago, when I was doing my captain's training, I actually started day one saying to myself, at some stage during this course, you may fail something.
Chris: All right. Because command training is big. There's a lot of stuff you've got to do. It was a six month course. You know, there's the flying side of things, but there's also the management and the human factors side of things.
Chris: And I went in saying, I probably will fail a simulator test or maybe some line flying or, you know, a theory test or whatever. um But that's okay because it doesn't mean you get booted out.
Chris: You just learn from it. And this is where the mentors come in. to to help you work out a strategy to then, you know, move past the hurdle that you just had, get through that.
Chris: And then I think you also have to keep your self-confidence up, right? So that's, I mean, that's through everything that you do from, you know, your initial flying training exams to interviews to, I mean, what we do simulators every six months. I do eight hours in the sim every six months my whole career.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: And I don't, like I've been a trainer, but I don't like going to the sim because you're being looked at, right?
Nate: but Yeah.
Chris: um
Nate: And that that's hard to be hard for a reason. yeah It's supposed to be there to help you learn and improve, right?
Chris: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. And you learn from your mistakes. Whereas if you go in saying, oh, I don't make mistakes and then something happens. All right.
Chris: You know, I've seen it happen before. A lot of people push back because they fail something because it's not their fault.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: You know, it's ah it's the problem of the instructor it's the the issue of the training system or the organisation. But you've got to own it, I think.
Nate: Yeah. It's the mindset.
Chris: Um, yeah. And I failed heaps of stuff in my aviation career.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: So, know, you just, you work your way through it and you get better and you learn from it and it's okay. You know, worse a person will hire.
Nate: And you mentioned briefly that mentors, what' what's mentoring like industry?
Chris: Yeah. Um, so at my work, we've just started the mentoring program. Um, it's maybe two years old. So when I joined in 2001, um,
Chris: um A lot of the captains I flew with on the 747, because it was the the flagship fleet, right, of the airline, lot of the captains I flew with were kind of my age now, but they had never been given any personal management skills.
Chris: They had been trained by the instructors and the pilots from the 50s and 60s, and those pilots were trained literally by the pilots the the war pilots who used to fly these Lancasters that I built and and bombers and fighters and whatnot, who had to have the strong, tough personalities to survive their missions every day.
Nate: Oh. Hmm.
Chris: But their human factor skills were zero. So but i when I joined even in 01, there were guys that were horrible to work with. And in fact, I remember one flight I was going between Auckland and Los Angeles and i was a junior second officer right on the jumbo and the captain hit me, like physically hit me.
Nate: um
Chris: You know, I just put my hand onto the radio console in front of me to do my radio check. And he turned around and he hit me and he said, don't touch anything. You guys don't need to touch anything here.
Chris: All right. That was I won.
Nate: Whoa. Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, right.
Nate: Wow.
Chris: And of course, I was brand new, pretty junior, so I didn't say anything.
Nate: Hmm.
Chris: These days, you'd be charged with assault for that.
Nate: yeah
Chris: You know, there are workplaces not like that.
Nate: wow
Chris: So I didn't have any mentoring at all. I was not taught my job, not taught, I was taught how to fly the plane. I wasn't taught how to be a second officer or anything. And it was just the school of hard knocks.
Chris: And then I came to first officer training on the 767. um And if you talk about failures, I failed my initial type rating test on the 767, because I was just undercooked with the speed of the training.
Chris: And then I went and did a couple more practice sims and got through it. But it would have been nice if I had you know some guidance and a mentor. But back then, I think mentoring meant you may have been a bit weak.
Chris: And because we are such still a male dominated industry, right then if you showed any weakness, that was just frowned upon and and gobbled up.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: you know Toughen up, like toughen up.
Nate: yeah
Chris: um So two years ago, three years ago, we started the mentoring program. So ah when I was a first officer, I had a couple of captains who were my mentors, who I could ring up and ask about airplane stuff, or I'm dealing with difficult cabin crew stuff, or I've just had a really bad trip with X, Y, Z. You know, how how do you recommend that i develop my my human factor skills to make these trips a bit better?
Chris: Or can we meet for a beer? I've just passed this test or that test, or I just want to sit down and have a chat about my career path or whatever.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. yeah
Chris: So I had a couple of those and then as you move through the ranks, you're then invited to be mentor. um So i mentor at the moment, I mentor two first officers on the 737.
Chris: um And it's, you know, when you're a mentor, you're not meant to reach out to the mentees. They're meant to reach out to you. So I open the line of communications and it's just up to them to contact me.
Chris: You know, it's not really a teacher-student thing.
Nate: yeah
Chris: It's more of an advice. Can I ask you a few questions? on and so forth. So I'm mentoring current airline pilots, but I also have three students at our Cornelius Affiliated Flying School that we have in Toowoomba who are literally starting where I started when I was 16, going all the way through. So they're asking me questions on private pilot's license navigation theory, which I have no idea about anymore, but you we dig it up and we have a chit chat.
Chris: Or... they asked me questions on how how is it best to live out of home for 55 weeks with a whole bunch of 19 year olds and 20 year olds, you know, who are running around thinking they're Tom Cruise, Maverick, Top Gun, you know, learning to fly these airplanes like I used to be at 16.
Nate: Yes.
Chris: You know, life questions, um career questions. How am I getting going to get my first job? What do you recommend I do? Do i go out bush or do I become an instructor? Or do I go and do a uni degree after I finish?
Chris: um Am I flying to give me something to fall back on? You all that sort of stuff. So I think it's really important. And I really enjoy it too. um But I'm glad I've got a mentor as well, even in my stage in my career.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: And it just, you can you can give back to the industry, but it just allows you to guide people in a certain way, as best as you know.
Nate: yeah
Chris: And if they take the advice they do, they don't, that's fine.
Nate: yeah
Nate: it's good It's great to hear that ah there's sort of a structured or semi-structured process there to allow people to access metaphors.
Chris: yeah
Nate: But I think for the people listening, if you don't you don't have that structure in your current industry and you don't know how to meet these people and ask these questions, I think just... reach out to me. I know a lot of people, every time every time I talk to someone on a podcast, they always say they're happy to walk around walk away and be a mentor.
Chris: yeah totally yeah yeah yeah absolutely and it could be like a mentor could be anyone
Nate: So there's people out there that are happy to to do this. So um reach out, i can get people in contact with other people. And and that's what...
Chris: It doesn't have to be in your line of of industry. It could be anyone who's had work experience for 30 years, you know anyone that's...
Nate: Hmm.
Chris: and I'm lucky enough at work that I do pilot interviews. So I do what you do you know for jobs.
Nate: Yeah. Hmm.
Chris: I totally understand the HR behavioral interview method, you know all of that sort of stuff. But there's more to it than just answering the question.
Nate: yeah
Chris: Because you can train to do that, but it doesn't mean you're going to be good say specifically to my industry, passing an interview with ah HR doesn't mean you're going to be a good fit as a pilot.
Chris: right. So, yeah, reach out and talk about, you know, what's the best way to do these interviews and what skills should I have, you know, and who do I talk to? um And I reckon, and i've I've taken this as part of my my mandate in life, is just get to know as many people as possible in any field.
Nate: absolutely
Nate: you never you never know you never know where those connections will lead and it's it's often always say this it's the events you go to when you're not in the mood that you end up meeting someone who you just connection at the right time and and can really have the impact so it's sort of put yourself out there a little bit out of the comfort zone out there and meet people
Chris: yeah
Chris: totally yeah absolutely yeah yeah yep yep yep and don't go into these you know events and meetings and so on and so forth are meeting people wanting something out of it you know
Nate: No.
Chris: yeah There's a lot of people that go, oh I'm going to go and meet Nate because he does his podcast. If I do podcast with him, then I'm going to get heaps more LinkedIn um views and you know Spotify listens and whatnot because I want to be this this X, Y, and Z. um And if you were to find that out, that I'm here just because of that, then the relationship that we have here right now sort of you disintegrates a little bit too. So you can't just go in wanting something from someone all the time.
Nate: no my my approach to networking is probably opposite. I go into networking to let everyone else talk.
Chris: yeah yeah yep yeah that's right yeah yeah
Nate: I'll talk when I need to about myself if have to, but I'm there to learn about everyone else in the room and what journey's there, what journey's there on, which is one of the reasons I do this podcast. I love hearing people's roundabout careers.
Nate: um All right, let's keep moving on. So what about um the best part of your job? Tell me about what is it that you absolutely love?
Chris: oh okay so first part of the job um When I first started, I'll do it in stages. When I first started off, it was just an airplane, right?
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: Fascinated by airplanes, loved it, you know? And even before I took my first flying lesson, building airplanes, I've built so many airplanes in my life. And I just love, I love the form of the plane.
Chris: um I loved putting them together and so on. So I guess I fell in love with it there. um And then ah liked my study and I really enjoyed, you know, learning and learning to fly and getting my licenses.
Chris: That was the best part then. And then I went to England with my parents and we flew jumbo jet from Sydney to Singapore, to Bahrain, to London, the old kangaroo route, so to speak.
Chris: And I got to go up to the flight deck of the jumbo jet. And I sat up there for maybe an hour and I went, wow, you guys do this for a job. I've got to do this.
Chris: This is great. You wear a really cool uniform. Okay. And you get to fly these little things, these big things that I've been building little things of and all these instruments and lights and you get to go overseas and do it and you get paid for it. So i raced back to mum and dad and I said, hey, I've worked out what I want to do. This is what my job, I want to do.
Chris: And then my mum said, what, you changed from you want to be a pilot to a flight attendant? And I said, no, no, no, no. I still want to fly airplanes.
Nate: yep
Chris: So, and then,
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: You know, you get a bit old, you get bit more mature, which I thought I was at sort of 24, 25. And then the opportunity starts to loom on the horizon to get into the airlines. And then I got in and it was just my dream.
Chris: So I was flying a jumbo jet and I was going overseas. And in fact, the room I'm sitting in here now in Singapore is the same hotel I first stayed at. in 2001, not the same room, but it's the same hotel I stayed at and it's gone a full circle now, you know, 25 years.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: Um, and I'm back here today in Singapore, which has been fantastic. So it's the best part was just to travel back then.
Nate: yeah
Chris: Um, know, we used to go to London, Paris, Rome, Frankfurt, and LA, all those places, San Francisco, Vancouver. And I never discovered the world. was paid to fly and discover the world. um
Nate: yeah
Chris: And then I went to the 767 and flew domestically for eight or nine years and did a lot of really cool hands-on flying on that aircraft. So I really enjoyed that part of it. Um, and then I got into, uh, I get to, got to fly a 380. that was the biggest airliner.
Chris: Uh, and got go to London in an A380 and land in Heathrow and whatnot. And that was really cool. So flying definitely. But as I've gone through, um, I got into training on the 787. So I became a pilot trying to 787.
Chris: Loved doing the training.
Nate: Hmm.
Chris: You was a simulator instructor. I do human factors training and ground instructing. So I get to meet a lot of people. you know, each year when I'm doing my my teaching side of things.
Chris: And then I, like I said, I upgraded to captain. And when you go from first officer as a flying pilot, second in charge to being in charge, the whole aviation paradigm shifts for you in terms of your responsibilities and job.
Chris: um And I found that everybody treats you differently as a captain.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: And if you're a nice person, you get a lot of respect, right? And obviously, if you're a nice person, you're giving a lot of respect back to your crew and team, passengers and airport staff.
Chris: um And you either fall into the role or it gets really hard. So I've moved away from really enjoying the flying and the training ah The flying is good.
Chris: I still enjoy that. But the best part of my job now is the people I work with.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: Sounds weird because most people say, oh, it's got to be flying around the world, you know. um I don't typically fly around the world in a 737. I do very long 12-hour, four-sector days in Australia between Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, Darwin, Cairns, up to Perth, Townsville.
Chris: And ah the flying is a job for me now. okay So if I do a 12-hour day, I'm really tired by the end of it. I do four takeoffs and four landings. ah But that's just the job. But the best part of it now is the people and the crews I work with.
Chris: I really enjoy... The pilots I work with, I really enjoy the cabin crew I work with. You know, i try and stand at the door when we disembark and say goodbye to passengers if I get the time to do that once we've secured the airplane and then the flight deck.
Chris: um And it's nice to see where, you know, the whole range of passengers, you've got mums and dads, you've got kids, you've got grandparents, you've got people that have just gotten married are really happy.
Chris: There are people that go into work, you know, they just get off the plane looking solemn with their suits and briefcases. You know, there are people that have just split up. They're really upset and you can tell those people. um and it's just, yeah, it's, it's the people that I work with that make the job now. i really enjoy it.
Nate: That's fantastic. Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate: So getting that time to, to see the passengers and connect with, you know, for the reason you were there. So I suppose it's a nice little of reminder of why you're doing what you're doing, having that moment to, to, to,
Chris: Yeah, and I think the passengers really appreciate one of us standing at the door because then they see that, oh, yeah, this is real, you know, and there are human beings flying the plane as well.
Chris: um And look, oh i in the domestic world, we fly with the same people week in, week out. So you make a lot of good friends. And I think the thing I'll miss most when I retire will be the friendships and the camaraderie.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: I won't be skinning up at 4am, that's for sure.
Nate: No. ah so I also love that you mentioned the uniform briefly there. A lot of clients I work with, I kind of really want the uniform.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate: I won't say it my interview, but I really ah really want a uniform.
Chris: see Oh, look, it's it's a massive part of it.
Nate: it's a big part of it.
Chris: And, you know, we are we are a certain personality that get to where we've gotten right. And there's also, there's always a little bit of ego involved.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: you know And they've done studies that people take note or notice of of instructions and commands from people in uniform. Okay.
Chris: So you've also got that, I wouldn't say it's a power trip, but that responsibility as well.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: And that I think that boosts your ego a little bit.
Nate: Oh, absolutely.
Chris: You know?
Nate: So what about the negatives then? Every career has negatives.
Chris: The negatives.
Nate: Is it the biggest challenge?
Chris: Yeah. Oh. I'm so lucky I have a career, which I just really enjoy. um But again, you know, we'll be flying along and we'll be complaining about something because humans do that, right? So the biggest negatives, I guess it depends if you're short haul long haul.
Chris: Long haul negatives for me were just the fatigue and the tiredness. um changing time zones and trying to enjoy yourself when you're in port, when there might be a 10 or an eight to 12 hour time zone change and you just feel tired.
Chris: That's hard on your body. that That was hard. And flying all night. you know When you're long haul, you typically fly pretty much all night. So the fatigue is a hard one, long haul. And then you get home and it takes you three or four days just to get over and feel normal again.
Chris: So definitely the tiredness. um Flying short haul, the fatigue is different. It's a physical working 12-hour day fatigue. um But then i'm I'm home most nights and sleep in my own bed, you know, and and and eat at the right times, sleep at the right times. So, you know, you just you feel better the next day, reasonably.
Chris: um So short haul, I guess it's just I'm away a lot, short haul. Like I'm at work a lot. um I thought coming to short haul would be good because I'd be home more.
Chris: I'm home at night more, but I'm actually at work every day. Okay. i dont know that sounds funny to most people because everyone that listens to your podcast is at work every day, but it's a different, yeah, I think you get used to what you're used to, you know.
Nate: yeah
Chris: so that's the hard part is just the fatigue. I think we do simulators every six months. So there's a constant study. like went after for So I've been in 25 years of simulators every year.
Chris: Okay, twice a year. So there's 50 recurrent training sessions I have done so far in my career. I don't think there's any other career out there that gets tested for proficiency twice a year.
Chris: um So there's always study.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: You're always worried about the next check. um But again, that's just what you're doing. That's part of the job. so So that's hard, um but we do it. um just think what else is difficult about the job. but I guess, yeah, long haul, you're away from home a lot.
Nate: yeah
Chris: you know And I've got two daughters at home. They're bit older now, but when they were really young, it's just hard because you want to be home to help look after the kids and so on. And and your partner's melting down because you're away for 10 days and you've got ah an 18-month-old and a three-year-old and they're the hard yards and we all go through it.
Chris: So you're away a lot from home. as well. And you got to enjoy traveling and it gets quite lonely.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: you know Even when I'm domestically flying, if I do an overnight somewhere in Australia and there's stuff going on at home with birthdays and this and that and whatnot, it can get quite lonely as well.
Chris: And with jet lag and loneliness, and there's a lot of people that reach sometimes dark spots as well when they're tired. They may have had a couple of drinks at night and then you go back to your hotel room and that's when it's not all blitz and glamour.
Nate: yeah
Chris: So you know, probably the hard bits for me, but the advantages and the fun bits far outweigh that stuff. Yeah, definitely.
Nate: Yeah, it it's good to hear you sort of say that it's like going to the office, like in the sense that it's a good reminder people listening that want to be pilots. Yes, there's all this amazing stuff you're going to experience, but the end of the day, a lot of it does become routine.
Nate: A lot of it will be the same thing over again.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate: like Like every other career is, you have the high moments, but there is that that sense of it being a job.
Chris: Yep.
Chris: Yeah. And you've got to have that to then enjoy the high moments because if everything's a high moment, it then becomes the norm and you then try and strive for a high moment, which may never happen, you know, and then you get, just get disappointed in it.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: So yeah and i think it's really important that in any career you have stuff to do outside of your job, You have hobbies, interests, clubs you go to, you know, stuff you learn, study, instruments that you play, you know, socialization in groups and so on.
Chris: Um, because my job is so intense. It's really easy just to identify yourself as an airline pilot.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: And I think there's a lot of people that do that and then they end up retiring with nothing, but you have to retire at a certain age. There's no,
Chris: Yes or no to it, like a lot of other careers you can keep going. We have to retire. It's part our regulations a certain age. And then a lot of these people fall in a big hump a lump because they don't have anything else.
Chris: um So I think well-rounded career is also good.
Nate: yeah It's very important. I feel like like the industry um is more mindful all of that now as well. I think there's a lot more opportunities and a lot more guidance available than there was previously.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there is.
Nate: It's...
Chris: And there where I work, there's so many things you can get involved in as well in in terms of training and flight operations. um yeah You can do management positions if you want. You can get into the technical side of each of the fleets. Like I said, I've been doing human factors ah teaching and training and course development for 20 years.
Chris: I've done pilot interviews. I do audits on flight decks as well. So we have a massive um international safety audit mandate at work. It's actually run by ICAO and IATA.
Chris: All right. So i sit on a flight deck and I just observe the pilots doing what they do and write everything down. And I look at all the errors they make.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: And I look at the threats that they they encounter and how they manage those threats. And it's not looking at the person, it's looking at the system. right So one of my jobs is to do that.
Chris: And I got into that maybe three years ago. the nice thing is, and specifically a good example here, is in early December, I get to go back onto the 787 flight deck and do a trip to Santiago in Chile with the crew for five days.
Chris: So I'll do an audit on that crew. So that, you know, and that allows me to get back a bit long haul again and and enjoy the 787 again.
Nate: yeah
Chris: um And yeah, you can do heaps and heaps of stuff at work, which is which is really cool. So that sort of gives you some other avenues to branch out in.
Nate: and And what about what about quicker ways to do this? So you mentioned you mentioned earlier that um you know your way was quite quite drawn out.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate: It was sort of chipping away on your own. What other avenues do people have to to explore this career?
Chris: Yep.
Chris: Oh, look, I think these days it's really changed since I was going through it back in the 90s and early 2000s. If I was to recommend anyone that was, or any age, it actually doesn't matter what age it is.
Chris: I've got a friend of mine that's 44 that's just got her licenses and wants to get into aviation, having been a midwife for 20 odd years.
Nate: Oh, nice.
Chris: um
Nate: ah
Chris: So there are the flying schools where you can do the integrated course. All right. so Qantas is affiliated with a flying school in Toowoomba called the Qantas Future Pilot Academy.
Chris: And every month they start another 15 aspiring airline pilots and it's a 55-week course. but you've got to You've got to come up front and fund it. It's quite expensive. um But do you get everything done in 55 weeks.
Chris: And then at the end of it, if you've done well, you then get an interview with the Qantas group, okay? to then allow you to be put onto a file to be given a first officer position in any of the subsidiary Qantas Group airlines.
Chris: All right, so you may go off to Western Australia and fly an Airbus a three twenty or you may join Q-Link in Sydney or Brisbane or Melbourne and fly the Q400-8s, all right?
Chris: And you literally only have 220 hours. Not even heard of in my day. um And so that's 55 weeks versus my four and a half years.
Nate: yeah
Chris: And you get the opportunity to do an interview. So that's a good way of doing it. If you can't do that, you can go to university and do a Bachelor of Aviation. and do all your licenses that way and then follow the same same way of of of trying to get a job.
Chris: um But you don't necessarily get an interview with with our airline per se. But that's, you get a bachelor's degree in three years and you get all your licenses done and then you have a management stream or a flight operations stream, then you can become an instructor and so on. and So you do it that way and they get you a degree and flying licenses.
Chris: You can go to the military. I think at the moment the Air Force and the the Navy and no any of the Army aviation are reasonably short of pilots. know So you can do it that way. You can go to the States and then come back and convert. So there's there's a lot of ways that you can get it done faster than just doing an hour per week, like a lot of us did ages and ages ago.
Chris: But again, you've got to have the cash to be able to do that.
Nate: yeah Is that still an option though? Like if if I'm working full time as an accountant, I can still do my one hour a week and and chip away at it?
Chris: Yep. Yep. Yeah, but you can you can chip away at it. um Because there's so much recruitment going on at the moment, if anyone wants to get into it fresh now, I'd recommend you jump on and do it as as soon as you can and as quickly as you can.
Chris: All right.
Nate: Okay. Okay.
Chris: um Because you just don't want to miss the boat. And aviation is so cyclical that if you if you get on to the beginning of the wave, that's the best time.
Nate: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: If you start at the top of the wave, the wave will then peter out and you might have to wait a couple of years.
Nate: yeah
Chris: um But how long is a piece of string? you know When's the best time to buy a house or sell a house? There isn't.
Nate: yeah
Chris: And I just say to everyone, just start now and and see what happens.
Nate: yeah
Chris: You can't plan everything in life.
Chris: And I think another bit of advice would be, it might be a bit controversial saying this, but if you're going to do it, I would go and get a university degree in it in a discipline other than aviation.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: Okay? Because to get into the flying side of things, you do not need a degree in aviation. You just need to get your licences. But if you have a management degree,
Chris: If you have a law degree or a science degree, you know if flying doesn't work out or you want to do something different, you've got the opportunity to do that. you know ah made A mate of mine that flies the A380, he's a barrister on the side.
Chris: Another ah acquaintance of my colleague of mine is a vet. So he's in vet practice as well. There's heaps of dot nurses in in cabin crew land, ex-police people, accountants, financiers.
Chris: um So it's a bit, yeah, I think it's a bit different now where you just get into flying as a career and that's it. you know um I'm telling my kids at the moment, if you want to go flying, that's great, but get yourself another discipline because you might have a really exciting job in something else.
Chris: And the job markets are changing so fast, as you know, there's so many opportunities out there to do concurrently with flying if you want to.
Nate: Yeah. i think I think there's something there as well about not being caught in that bubble. Like you said, ah when you get to to being a captain, if that's all you are and you sort of have that label.
Nate: If you've got something else happening on the side, it keeps you it keeps you ah bit more open-minded and looking at different opportunities and able to get different people.
Chris: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's it. Whereas, you know, in the last 30 years, you just fly and that's your identity. Uh, and the people that just identify as aviators are sometimes hard to get on with because they don't know to talk at what to talk about or talk about anything else with you. yeah um And to be honest with you, mate, there are some of them are really boring people.
Nate: i think I think you get that in most industries though.
Chris: Yeah, I think you do too. too
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, maybe, maybe. um Yeah, yeah. ah Get out and do some other stuff as well. That's my bit of advice there. Yeah.
Nate: yeah And what about tools or resources or habits, anything you've come across in your career that that really was really useful or you would recommend?
Chris: Yeah.
Chris: I think we've talked about one of them already, and that is getting to know as many people as possible, you know, across the board. um i know a lot of people now being a captain in management outside of flight ops management at work, you know, so couple of people in finance, a couple of people in engineering, but bla blah, blah, blah, blah.
Chris: ah And the nice thing is I've been invited to talk to employee groups in other aspects of our business about what we do and how we do it. You know, we take people in the jump seat to go flying. So first tool would be to get to know as many people as possible.
Chris: ah But don't be belligerent about it, if that makes sense. And don't be rude about it and arrogant about it. and Just make contacts. Yeah. Second thing, always use three words that an instructor said to me when I got my license back in, oh God, in the mid nineties. And it was, when you get out there, Chris, in everything you do in life, you have to have application, preparation and dedication.
Chris: And I think, obviously you try and apply yourself in everything that you do, right? You've gotta be really dedicated in this industry. if you want to get to the top of the food chain.
Chris: So, yeah, there's so much hard work and it gets boring every now and then um and it's tiring, but you've just got to be dedicated to what you're doing. um And obviously, see ah I prepare for all my recurrent training sessions.
Chris: I prepare for my classroom sessions that I'm giving out. I've got, fact, in two weeks' time, I've got my simulator tests again, so I'll start to prepare for that. And if you're prepared any aspect of your job, people can see that.
Nate: Mm-hmm.
Chris: right And it puts you in good stead, but it also allows them to respect you um as a person who is quite conscientious. So yeah, application, dedication and preparation was was definitely one thing. And for not sort sort a choice of a better word here, not to be rude, I think I've learned over my time in the airlines, the best way to to get the job done And for you to get on with people is just don't be a knob.
Chris: Just have mutual respect, right? and Don't be that person that people talk about as a knob.
Nate: The simplest.
Chris: Now, I don't if you want to edit that out or not, but that's I will say that to everyone.
Nate: No. Yeah.
Chris: you know Just don't be that person.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: but Mutually respect everyone, even if you don't agree with who they are, what they stand for, whatever else. and whatever else if you mutually respect them and you get the job done, they'll do the same for you.
Chris: You know, and there's nothing worse than working with that particular person that is just rude.
Nate: I agree completely. Our last question is, um do you have a mantra or a saying, but he ah don't be a knob, is that the saying?
Chris: Yeah.
Chris: It's funny because when I, when I run a course for the brand new intakes, right? for the new pilots that have just joined and that the experience is massive for the new pilots we're taking on, you so we've, we have probably taken, i don't know, half the cafe pilots are now working for but Qantas because they all left, you know, during COVID and just after COVID.
Nate: Hmm.
Chris: So they've all come back to Australia.
Nate: Mm-hmm.
Chris: Um, and there are people from GA that are coming in, some air force pilots, a lot of the other smaller airlines in Australia, we're taking all those pilots as well. So, um, um So live advertising a little advertising spiel for those of you looking to fly. It's a good time to start because we're short, okay?
Chris: The aviation industry is still short. But I do a five-day course with these pilots. And we talk all about what's expected of them as employees, as good pilots and good operators, as technicians, you know, and also as human beings. And at the end of the the five days, I said, guys, you know, in five days, this could have been literally boiled down to one phrase, WNOB.
Chris: That's all it is, right? And when I do my interviews, I interview pilots. I sit there and i ask them all the behavioral questions and I write everything down. have a big form on them and whatnot. But I also gauge, can I sit with that person for eight hours on a flight deck?
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: Have a good chat. Know that they're competent in flying the airplane. And can we come to Singapore and go and have some sates and a beer?
Nate: yeah
Chris: That's all it is. All right? boils down to being a good human. So there's that. But I think every day I go to work, just in the back of my mind, i always just say to myself, I'm just grateful to be here. you know, because yes, I've worked hard, but I've also had a lot of luck, you know, on my side getting in as well. And that's just not being brought up in a good family and whatnot, but it's right place, right time, who you know, the luck that you make yourself.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: And as I said at the beginning of our interview, sometimes it's better be lucky than good.
Nate: Yeah, incredible.
Chris: I could probably say that my whole career has been more luck than being good at stuff. of But yeah, just grateful to be here. I think it's is my big one because I've got my dream job, you know, and the the good far outweighs the bad and the challenges.
Nate: yeah and And gratitude is one of those things, just taking just taking that small moment to reflect on it.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate: I know I need to do it more. You get caught up in the hustle of life and taking those moments to sit and reflect on the gratitude is ah is a healthy space to be in.
Chris: It is, yeah. And like we we arrived here in Singapore last night and we went out for some some food, some drinks and whatnot. we sort of wandered downtown at about 5.30. And everyone's piling out of the office buildings.
Chris: oh And of course, down down in the CBD here in Singapore, it's all the financial district that we were walking through.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: it So everyone's coming out suits and they all just look so glamour.
Nate: Yeah.
Chris: And they work there eight till five or, you know, seven till seven. And they come out and I just thought to myself, I could never do this job again, ever. I could never work in an office again. You know, I moan complain and complain and whinge about being up all night and being tired and, you know, what we've just talked about.
Chris: But, gee, I've got a great, a great gig.
Nate: You got it.
Chris: And I'm, yeah, just grateful to be here.
Nate: Yeah.
Nate: Fantastic.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate: On that note, thank you, Chris. It's been great to hear your journey and the downs and every part of it.
Chris: Hey, thanks, Nate. No worries.
Nate: So thank you.
Chris: That's okay. And like I said, if anyone wants to reach out ah you want to give by my LinkedIn out, I'm more than happy to have a chat privately or do some mentoring. And that's what it's all about.
