Transcript
Nate: Grant, thank you for joining us on the a to Z Job Podcast. Tell us a bit about yourself, your career and and what got you started.
Grant: All right.
Grant: um Okay. Well, um I started my career in aviation yeah over 30 years ago now. um And it was at the local airport.
Grant: And I was looking for a Saturday job, as you did back then. I was 16. And I managed to get a customer service job for the weekend at the local airport. um which was great because all the rest of my friends worked in fast food restaurants and the local supermarkets and all that. And I was dealing with bomb threats and delays and celebrity passengers and they were frying chips. So it was, that was, that was really good. And it was very exciting.
Grant: And that sort of got me, got me the bug. I had no intention of ever working in aviation. It wasn't a career that um was spoken about at school or that was on the cards. Didn't really know anything about it, but through that job,
Grant: um I went to university inage initially and then had to leave through health and went back to the customer service job. Permanent job came up in air traffic and through all that I just learned more and more about um and the the business really and and the kind of back end of the business so not the bit that you see isa as a passenger, as ah a traveller.
Grant: I'd never been in an aeroplane. In fact, I started working with aeroplanes before I had ever been aeroplane, which was ah an interesting concept. um And from there, that sort of opened I grew up in South West Scotland, um not a huge amount of career opportunities in aviation there.
Grant: wanted to travel and see the world. I got as far as the Midlands of England, which was only about 350 miles But I got into the airline sector rather than the airport sector there and worked through and ah number of jobs there. And that is where I first started getting a taste for the the area of compliance and safety assurance, which is what I now work in permanently, full time.
Grant: and And that was my my little taster there in the first airline. And I went through several other airlines where it became a my permanent job.
Grant: um and and and brought me to to where I'm now as a safety and compliance manager.
Nate: You mentioned celebrities. Did you get to meet anyone super famous?
Grant: ah did i I got to meet, we we had a lot of world-renowned golf courses near the airport. It was Presswick Airport, at Southwest Scotland. and And the area is very well known for its golf courses, Royal Turnberry.
Grant: um which is now owned by a gentleman who's doing things in America. And I, to my to my eternal shame these days, I carried these bags for him. I never got to meet him, but I carried these bags for him and did actually get a significant tip from which I was allowed to take and and keep, which 30 years ago, 100 quid was a lot of money. So um yeah, I got a little tip.
Grant: I also met the singer Bjork, um
Nate: Ah, yeah.
Grant: she was um She was an interesting character, but most of the ones that we met were famous golfers who would come through for the out for the tournament. So Tiger Woods and a host of others used to come in and part their aircraft at Prestwick as well. So, yeah, it was interesting.
Grant: was interesting.
Nate: Fantastic. And what about, know we're gonna spend most the time talking about your current job, but just wanna touch quickly on ah the air traffic control work you were doing.
Grant: o
Nate: is that um Is that as stressful as it sounds? Like you see, watched a lot of air crash investigations on YouTube and there's always like, you see these shots in these towers, like I could never do that.
Grant: yeah it it it can be it absolutely can be um was it stressful way when i was it
Nate: Is it as stressful as it looks?
Grant: It depends very much on what airfields you are or there's obviously, as you'll have seen from the the air crash investigations, it's not just about airports, there's ah area control centres as well that are controlling chunks of the the sky, not around airports.
Grant: um we at Presswick had tower control, we had ah a flight training school, we also got a lot of commercial airlines coming and doing training as well and we had cargo operations and passenger operations so there was a really good mix of flying and so some days you could be sat there doing
Nate: Thank you.
Grant: really not that much at all and you think i'm getting paid for this and then you know other days you know it felt what we imagined at the time was a little bit like heathrow chicago or something like that it was nowhere near that but it felt like it to us because there was you know five or six trainers up there there was you know a jumbo jet freighter coming in there was three delayed passenger flights we thought oh my god it's it's like It's like an international hub, but um it it can be stressful.
Grant: And I i what still do work very closely with people that work in air traffic. And certainly in the busier pieces of airspace, it kind it can be very stressful.
Nate: Thank you.
Grant: And a a very interesting ah scenario had at one of my previous places of employment where I looked after air traffic, but from an airline perspective, And we worked with the area control sectors for the the central part of um the UK here.
Grant: Very busy piece of airspace because of the airfields round about it and the amount of traffic that that that crosses it. And they um did a workshop where they actually showed us a kind of real life morning of a Friday morning, middle of the summer season when there was a lot of holiday flights here in the UK and across Europe.
Grant: And they showed us just exactly how busy it could get. And um and the the woman that was the controller on shift, she paused the video. You could see the radar screen. She would pause it and talk you through what she was thinking.
Grant: And I had a load of pilots that I had taken with me. And bear in mind, they talked to the traffic control every single day through the course of their job. And they turned to me went,
Nate: Yeah.
Grant: Well, I won't say exactly of what they said. There was a few expletives in there, but it was it was very much the, oh, my God, how do they do that? And I'm like, yeah, that's that's why they get paid the big bucks, because it is very, very stressful. So can depend where you are.
Grant: um But, yeah, you have to. there's There's no sitting playing Angry Birds or being on your socials whilst you're on a shift. It's 100% focus.
Nate: No, no, you've got to be switched on.
Grant: But fascinating.
Nate: You'd be exhausted like that that, just being switched on for that period of time.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: Like it's exhaust like it exhausting doing it a couple of hours at a time, let alone like a whole shift and knowing that those decisions have big, big impact.
Grant: Yeah.
Grant: Yeah. And and that's that's why it's when when you're exposed to scenarios like that and you actually see it real time and you speak to the people that are doing it, you can can see and you can see why they they they stagger it.
Nate: Yeah.
Grant: So, you know, you're only in the seat in maybe 40 minutes, certainly in a busy period.
Nate: Okay. Yeah. yeah
Grant: So I think back in the day, and don't quote me the legal because it's been a while, but it was something like you could only do an hour on and an hour off through any one eight hour shift.
Grant: But if it was busy, they would reduce that because of exactly as you say there, Nate, the concentration that's needed. And I mean, this this one woman, the scenario she was describing to us,
Grant: She barely had time to pause and take breath. It was literally one bit after the other. Talk to the aircraft. Next one. What's happening? Who are you? Where are you going? You need to do this. You need to do that.
Grant: And it's that she can barely breathe. How is her brain firing that?
Nate: I need to.
Grant: Because as she's talking to one, she must be looking at something else because she's already decided what's happening with that one by the time she's finished telling the first one what they're doing.
Nate: yeah
Grant: And, you know, it's just constant. It's fascinating to watch. And I can see why people like yourself watch aircraft investigations and stuff that, because it's an exposure that you just, when you're sat there having your gin and tonic at 35,000 feet en route to Bali or whatever, you just don't think there's someone sitting there stressing out, making sure that you don't crash into something you shouldn't.
Grant: So yeah, it's great.
Nate: Yeah. right.
Grant: Fascinating stuff. I still love it. Still love it.
Nate: One more quick question before we get back to the the main job. ah
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: So for the air traffic controlling, is there a degree or is there some training you need to do beforehand or is it really just um on the job, get get up to speed on the job?
Grant: There's, um I mean, every, i think every every national authority is is probably different. Mine was quite, excuse me, mine was quite different to how people normally do it. and Because I worked at the airport, and um we weren't, air traffic services weren't supplied by the national authorities, they were back then.
Grant: Most national authorities or most countries will have a training either a national ah training centre as part of their aviation services, NACS as in the UK, National Air Traffic Services.
Grant: But because we were an independent airport, I started as an assistant controller and there was a private college where you could go and you could train as a controller. My assistant's controller at the time was very much on the job training and classroom training provided by the assistants.
Grant: um for an air traffic controller you could go and do an independent course at one of the independent colleges and do that. but That said, you still have to go through, it's a certified training course, you had to go and you would be trained to the exact same standard.
Grant: And you would have to go through the exact same sign off process by the, in the UK, the Civil Aviation Authority to say that you were competent to fulfill that role.
Grant: So you either went through the kind of national provider or an independent provider, but you were verified by the Aviation Authority of the they the country that you that you were living in.
Nate: As
Nate: as well
Grant: And like a lot of air things in aviation, like pilots and cabin crew and an annual revalidation every single year where they come in and assess you to see what you're doing. So, um,
Grant: I'm sure there are probably kind of degree courses you can do now but as far as I'm aware from the from the yeah UK it's still nuts as the national provider they still run a recruitment drive I know Europe still do it through Eurocontrol because I have contacts there and it's a recruitment drive you're brought in and you're given the specialist training for think that the initial training is probably something around about 18 months to two years And yeah, it's it's proper intense.
Nate: Oh, wow
Grant: And when you see the kind of output that we were just describing a short while ago, to be able to work like that and fire like that, it it's not something you're going to learn in a couple of weeks.
Grant: It's, um yeah.
Nate: And nor should it be, it should it should be it should be that
Grant: Absolutely. um Absolutely not. But um yeah, I have... um I enjoyed my time there, but I'm not sure that um I would have been the best person to progress much further than that. So I'm i'm glad my career went in the direction it did.
Nate: Fantastic. So if you're wanting to be ah to be an air traffic controller, look for the recruitment drive, reach out to the local authorities and get the details from there.
Grant: um Absolutely, the it'll be it'll be something that's very Google-able if such a word exists in and any in any country through national provider.
Nate: Perfect.
Nate: back to your current job.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: Tell me what do you love about it? what What gets you out of the bed in the morning? What do you love?
Grant: i I really, really like the variety that my job ah involves. So I look after the ah compliance and safety assurance for the operational side of and the airline world for the company that I work for.
Grant: And that includes everything from flight deck, their procedures, their training, um their emergency procedures, carbon crew, their training, um their procedures, but also the ground stuff. So the ground handling of aircraft, the flight planning, the crew roastering, the legal requirements for the hours that they work and the rest periods that they work, ah the support and ancillary services such as aircraft performance, ah weight and balance, the handling of dangerous goods,
Grant: um I'm working along all the departments in the office that we're based in to to capture.
Nate: Boom.
Grant: there's There's loads of other things. And just when you think you have a handle on it, you think, good, yeah, I know what I'm dealing with. Ah, this is coming in. You need to go and have a look at that now. um And you also get the chance to go and work a lot with your third-party contractors. So you may have third-party that's not part of your organisation that provides the training for you.
Grant: um that might be a different company that does your flight crew training as it does your cabin crew training and so that's two different companies um certainly with ground handling you have a lot of different uh airfields around the world that you fly to and it might be a different company and a different scenario in each of those airfields that handle your aircraft and that's really really fascinating to see how
Nate: A little bit different.
Grant: everybody does the same job but does it slightly differently but is still doing it the right way and it's it's just such a variety if if you were to ask me what's a typical day in the life of me i couldn't tell you because every single day you could be dealing with something different um which is it which keeps it interesting it keeps it really really interesting and it keeps it fresh and there is that bit of what you say you get out of bed
Nate: little bit different
Nate: Yeah.
Grant: And I've got calendar, don't we all? You know, we live by our but by our Google calendars and our Outlook calendars.
Nate: yeah but
Grant: And I will look at it, go, that's what I'm doing today. And I can guarantee nine times out 10, by the time you get to five o'clock, your day has been nothing, looks nothing like what you'd actually planned. And that's the good thing. Keeps it, keeps it fresh.
Nate: Variety and being so so cross-functional as well, there must be a lot of relationship management because you need to keep that that healthy relationship across all departments, if you're particularly in your role, because it's not always good news and you need to have established that that relationship to start with.
Grant: Yeah.
Grant: Absolutely.
Grant: Yeah, absolutely. one One of the most important things that I have learned about my my role ah in my area and in compliance and safety assurance, which I have now been first started doing it um as a site, part of another job.
Grant: best part of 25 years ago now and and then it became a permanent thing and the the first thing and the biggest thing that you can learn is about relationship building um because you can be dropped into, I give an example, dropped into an airfield
Grant: in a foreign country where their first language isn't your first language um and thankfully most of the people i met spoke much better english than i did their uh their mother tongue but to get the best out of them you're there for three days and you need to get everything as but as much as possibly can out them you need that relationship from the minute you walk in um and that is that is a skill that is ah so so crucial to to the success of the role that myself and my team members would do relationship build and being able to talk being able to listen and
Grant: and and and how you go about that unlike you say for people in terms of how you maintain that throughout you know you're you're working with a host of personalities dayen day in day out and you need to you need to be able to just nurture those relationships to get the best out people it's not always easy
Nate: Yeah, I feel that that's close birth close to home. i In HR, it's a very similar role in the sense of the relationships because you need to be there to support them and help grow their career, but you're also there to tilt them off and to fix problems as they come up.
Grant: yeah
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: So you need to, you find that balance, you you get those connections, you have those informal chats to make sure you've got that that relationship developed.
Grant: um Absolutely. it's It's very interesting. We we do we do comment that HR and compliance tend to be the two most, and I'm saying in inverted commas, hated teams within any business because it's like, oh, what do you want?
Grant: When you walk in anywhere, the kind of line is, what do you want? Don't tell them anything. Don't tell them. anything
Grant: dont
Nate: It's either what do you want or what have I done wrong?
Grant: Yeah, what have I done wrong? And I'm like, and I'm always like, oh, is that is that a guilty complex there? Do I need to explore this further? So I've started walking in now saying, before you ask, just here to say hello.
Grant: And just remember, I'm really nice. I'm really nice. Please don't hate me. But yeah, it's there's there's very much parallels between, you know, I suppose the ah HR world and and and the role that I do as well.
Grant: So I feel your pain.
Nate: so tell So tell me the not so glamorous parts of the job. What are what are the things that can be frustrating when you find difficult or or challenging?
Grant: I think that the challenge, and again, you'll probably appreciate this, that the nature of my job is that you will be in to assess and the result of any assessment is an output and that output isn't always going to be, oh, you're fab, you're great.
Grant: Well done, see you next year. So it's that trying to give the let's cut the constructive feedback because that's what it is.
Nate: a
Grant: It's constructive stuff, but it's trying to make sure that that lands as constructive and feedback and not criticism.
Grant: i And some people that are on board with the process get that and and you know kind of welcome it. Other people perhaps aren't as familiar with the process and take it as a criticism. Some people take it very personally as well.
Grant: And again, going back to having those good enter and and interpersonal relationships, um that's where they really come into your own because if you've had a good two or three day session with people and they realis realize you're not a bad person, you're just asking questions and and you go over and you're able to explain why you're doing what you're doing,
Grant: you able to explain what why you might be raising something at the end of it? um That really, really helps. People will always invariably, because we are human and we are emotional, and people will periodically take things very, very personally, and you get you'll have the same yourself in HR.
Nate: Oh. Yeah.
Grant: um So that that never gets easy. um no matter how many times you do it, and no matter how well you know someone, It's always, you know, and I still find that, and I talk about this when we're doing sort training and coaching for my team and other people that are coming in to to to take on the roles of doing and auditing and and and feedback is it never gets easy.
Grant: So you just need, you know, it's something you just need to learn how to do it. And every time you do it you think, oh, that went wrong, it's a good learning curve for the next time. Well, I'm certainly not going to say that in that manner the next time.
Nate: Mark. more
Grant: um we've And we've all done it. So, yeah, that that can be, but that's the hardest bit about the job, I would say. The other bit to completely jump in the face of what I've just said earlier on, the their variety diversity and diversity,
Grant: can sometimes be frustrating as well because let you say when you think I really need to get through these eight things tomorrow in my calendar and because of the role that you do and because of the for function you feel you get lot if you've got two minutes and the two minutes is never two minutes it's always two and a half hours and then you ask a question to help them out of it and you're like right well it's two hours and then it goes down a rabbit hole and the next thing the whole day is going and you're like
Nate: nothing Hmm. right
Grant: when am I going to fit these other eight things in now? Because funnily enough, tomorrow is booked with other things as well. So the the thing that's good about it can also be the thing that can be quite frustrating some sometimes. But you have to balance that.
Grant: You have to balance that out. that that That is the nature of the job you do. And you you have to learn to live with it somehow and manage it as best you can.
Nate: Yeah. Some advice that I was given from a previous manager of mine was no one's coming to work to do a bad job.
Grant: Exactly.
Nate: And it's just like, it sounds so simple, but if you just, when you go into these difficult conversations with people, if you just keep that at the back of your mind, like they don't know they're doing it wrong or most the time like yeah they they might be being a bit cheeky but no one's coming to work to do a bad job so you approach it with a positive but energy and try and and solve something rather than coming in and telling someone off because that's that's never going to down well
Grant: Yeah.
Grant: Absolutely.
Grant: Yeah. and that's And you touched on a good point there, Nate, with the language. it's You said that it's not telling someone off. it It's how you put it across. If you put it across that you're telling somebody, they are, I mean, we're all human. I would be exactly the same.
Grant: You would instantly shut down because what I'm not having you coming in here telling me how to do my job. going Whereas, again, back to your relationships, you you know you set the scene, you have there you have the the good discussions.
Nate: gone
Grant: It's about how you set it up. We always you know open audits with we're looking at the process, not the person. you know And you're talking about the process may be wrong, the process may have evolved and you know the paperwork may not have caught up or maybe the process needs to evolve.
Grant: But until we look at it, we don't know that. And it's, you know, it's a bit captured and what helps you take things forward. It's not a you have done something wrong because there will be a reason why it's not working. Is it lack of training? Is it a lack of support material?
Grant: It will be a thing, not a person. um but But yeah, it's um it's very it's it's it's very difficult, but it's very much how you frame it.
Grant: I would say, and that's even down to things as well. The the thing that I always used to do, especially if you were at an airport, because you would have time between each session where you would physically have to move from one department to the other. And there would always be someone like a manager or supervisor overseeing everything, taking you around.
Grant: And it it was stupid little things. I remember being in one airport in France once, and I could see that the chap that was with heade He was on his phone and he had a picture of a dog on his phone. and Love dogs.
Grant: I've got a picture my dog on my phone. And he went, is that your dog? And like, yeah, yeah, that's my dog. Oh, he or she, what's his name? You know you do you do the child. um Actually, they're in the vets. And I says, all right, do you need to go and pick them up?
Grant: Yeah, but we've got the other. Go and pick the dog up. Go and pick dog
Nate: yeah
Grant: The first question the next day when you see them is, how's the dog? How they doing?
Nate: How's the dog?
Grant: How is all that?
Nate: Yeah. No.
Grant: And honestly, it's a little bits like that changes the whole thing because you just get, I think as well, it just reminds people that you're not an inspector. You're a human being as well. It's like, oh, oh, nice oh, old dog. Oh, is it, you know, I bet he's slowing down and all that. Mine's jumping up And it just builds that connection. It's all those little bits that build the connection that really, really help you.
Grant: And it's using your time. Then you can go in and say, yeah, we need to have a look at this. And people are like, yeah, that's great. We're talking about that and we get it. And it normally works out a little better.
Grant: But it's, yeah, little bit better.
Nate: A little bit better, a bit easier.
Grant: Mostly, mostly. Yeah.
Nate: So with your role then, like you had a, yeah you had your career journey, you've gone, you've gone through the aviation industry and sort of found your place.
Grant: yeah
Nate: um If you had known though, if you had known quality, safety, audits, you knew this was the space you wanted to work in.
Grant: Mm-hmm.
Nate: How could you fast track that? How could you get to there without the the journey that you've been on?
Grant: ah but Without the preceding 30 years type.
Nate: Wow.
Grant: excuse it you Well, i was I was thinking about this. I heard I was sitting down and chatting going, how could yeah how how could you do it differently? How could I have done it differently?
Grant: And obviously the aviation world is very different to the one that I but i first joined. um Things are far more electronic. you know Life is far more electronic and and on a pad or a tablet of some sorts.
Nate: la
Grant: um the The thing, ah the perception of my role years gone by is you get it by having done 30 years because you've seen most things, you've done most things, and therefore you must be an expert in it, which is ah complete fabrication of the truth because you cannot possibly be an expert in everything when your remit is so wide. You can't be an expert in everything even if your remit is very, very narrow as well because I'm a big believer that there is always something new to learn.
Grant: You can never say you know everything. And if you do, to my mind, you're you're doing yourself a disservice because the the way business evolves, there's always going to be something new to learn. So the the thing, if anybody listening to this was thinking, is there a way I could structure it or do it a bit and easier or a bit quicker?
Grant: I would say being able to get the exposure of learning and understanding where ah how different departments work. so for me i've worked with and for different departments throughout my career so therefore i've got a reasonable knowledge of a lot of the areas that i now look after
Nate: Hmm.
Grant: um i could have and it was never a thing earlier on in my career but i know it is now there's a lot of shadowing programs mentoring programs as well where you can go and sit with ah a team for a morning or you could go and actually spend a week with a team there's even some areas I know where you can go and second yourself into another team for you know up to three months if the company supports it and anything like that is invaluable Because it's great to say, oh yeah, we're a big airline or we're a big organisation, we're a big airport. And, yeah, they do this and they do that.
Grant: You never really know what they do and until, you know, you go and sit in their shoes as well. It's like the pilots and the air traffic controller. Pilots and traffic controllers speak to each other every day.
Grant: And the pilots that, you know, that we took to that that that demonstration just weren't really... aware of exactly what the other role was doing and and and that's just that's the nature of working for a bigger organization you think you know what's happening but you don't appreciate that so to my mind take taking full advantage of any opportunities like that that exist within the company that you're working in or within a
Nate: eat
Grant: a partner company, um or even if you're really determined, making the time, you know, taking a week off and saying, I'll take unpaid leave, or I'll take some annual leave and use it to go in and work there because everybody's busy at the end of the day. We can't just be giving people three months out or a week off sometimes, but using your time effectively to go and learn about the other areas that you would be looking after.
Grant: It also gives you a great opportunity to go and speak to other people that you wouldn't normally speak to. And therefore, builds your ability to speak to other people, build relationships very quickly and all that interpersonal stuff that we we're talking about as well.
Grant: um i And done that is invaluable, as we said, but just in general as well, you learn more about the company, you learn more about who you can speak to and and you get your face recognised. People remember, ah,
Grant: It's Grant from compliance. I've got a question. I'll just ping Grant an email. He might actually know the answer to that. And if not, he might know someone that can help me. And that's the other bit. It gets your name known. It gets your face known. It gets your enthusiasm and your interest known as well.
Grant: um It doesn't guarantee your job, but it just, it people will then, would I would imagine going, oh, yeah, they came and spend they came spent a week.
Nate: Hmm.
Grant: because They were really interested in what we did. That's great. Anybody that wants to come and sit with me, I'm like, right, would you like a job? Would you like to work? Do you think you might join us at some point in the future?
Nate: but
Grant: you know It's always good to see if people really would like to do that. um Because no one's ever said at school, I want to really question people and then tell them they're not doing things right.
Nate: but
Grant: There's never an option in the careers form, was it?
Nate: man
Grant: Something that you maybe discover later
Nate: ah
Grant: um So yeah, ah that that that would be that would be my advice. There's also a lot of courses out there you can do. or um The training section of our national authority do a lot of inspectors courses.
Grant: And some of them some of them are very regulation heavy. That's another thing. Read the regulation. I know how thrilling and exciting that sounds saying that, but even understanding the basics of it, um and a lot of the time, certainly from the OPS regulations, it can be it can be very general. you know Some of it is very, very intricate. Some of it can be quite general, so it's easy to understand.
Grant: But training courses and run by national authorities about regulations, but a lot of the courses, certainly the ones that we have available in the UK, are run by ex-CIA inspectors.
Grant: So you get the, here's how to read and and interpretate the regulations, which is great, but here's some tips about how you ask the questions and here's the things that you're looking for because they've already done it.
Nate: la
Grant: They've already done it to certify airlines and airfields. So you're getting the first-hand knowledge of someone that's already done that job. Excuse me. And they, um sorry, go on.
Nate: and
Nate: was going to say that that leans into what you're saying about the relationships and the network. So by doing these courses, it's not just the knowledge you're getting from the from the training.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: It's you're, you're meeting people who are actively involved in the industry. So don't waste that opportunity.
Grant: Yeah, absolutely.
Nate: Go introduce yourself, go get your face in front of them and have a chat, you know, start, start from there.
Grant: Yeah, absolutely. And you would find yourself on those. but I did a course um ah a few years back now. It was to do with dangerous goods. And the the chap that was running it had been a dangerous goods inspector for, he'd been and inspected me and and and my current place of work.
Grant: um several times. And he was he was notorious for being a very thorough and inspector. He knew every line of like a thousand page document. He was very good at what he did.
Grant: But to see him in a training context was was totally different. And you know he was able to impart a lot of information about you know what you would be looking for, what looks good, what wouldn't look good, what would you need to raise, and what would you therefore encourage people to do to come back up to the level they need to be.
Grant: That was all great stuff. I was on that course with people from other airlines from all over the world. room And instantly after three days, you then have 10 other people that work in your sector all over the world that have all got a little bit of experience doing this set and the next thing.
Nate: Yeah.
Grant: Plus, you've met a couple of people from the national authority. And again, somebody asks you a question at work and you go, wait minute, there was a guy in that course. There was a woman in the woman that took that course was I'll drop her an email.
Grant: And it's the same similar thing I was saying about, you know, internal shadowing and all that. That person might not not know the answer. but they might know someone they can put you in touch with and it expands that network of people that you get your face recognized with, you get your name recognized with.
Grant: You get a great network of people that can help you build that knowledge as well. So um as you can tell, I'm very much about people and interactions, I find that yeah regardless of what career you're in,
Nate: Yeah.
Grant: interpersonal reactions just just make you make the world turn and make the job so much easier I think so um yeah that's um that's certainly one of those things that you know anybody that's listening could look into as well courses as well as stuff they could do into yeah
Nate: Yeah.
Nate: yeah And that ties in with, like, I work with quite a few people career coaching for the aviation industry. And you yeah you don't always get in on your first try.
Grant: me
Nate: Like you might wanna be a pilot, cabin crew, you might.
Grant: yeah
Nate: well You might not get on the first try. It's a tough, it's it's it's tough to get through the interview process. But I think what I recommend is is kind of what you're saying is is sort of get into the industry.
Nate: So it might not be the the job you're after.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: But if you're you're in the industry now, you're making the connection, you understand now, I might be baggage handler now, but I now know how ground staff work.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: And then I might do a a counter job. I now know how that works. So by the time you get all this experience behind you, suddenly you're you're now in the top 10% for that job you wanted compared to everyone else coming in cold.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: So it's sort of being a bit more open-minded about your entry points.
Grant: Absolutely.
Grant: Yeah, when i when I first moved into airlines um from air traffic, the company that went into there, ah i I was very, very lucky. I was one of the few people at the time that came externally from the company and went straight into their operational control center.
Nate: you
Grant: Most people started as a customer service agent at the airport. then they became a load controller, then they would become a supervisor, then they become a duty manager, then they would move into ops type thing. You know, they'd move from the airport into the kind head office type thing.
Grant: I was very lucky that I came straight and um I don't know why it happened because I don't actually think they thought I was suitable to do that because of my background, because it was so different to what they did.
Grant: The gods were looking down on me. Somebody liked my nice new suit that I had put on. I don't know. I got the job and it started me in a career that was literally only going to be a summer job and, you know, a couple of weeks to see me over between uni and, as I say, 30 years of being here. But yeah, it's ah certainly that.
Grant: you know, making the connections. I think something as well is just using those people from the other areas and and learning a lot more um and looking for those opportunities is is something.
Nate: Oh.
Grant: And don't wait for the opportunities to come and find you, because if nobody knows you're there, no one's going to come knocking on your desk going, just wondering, random person that I have never met before in my life, would you like to learn about this? You do need to...
Grant: sometimes push yourself out there. And I know, you know, I'm a bit of a chatty Cathy, I know, but there's still that little kind of shy person inside of me. And you sometimes just need to put your big brave pants on and and go, right, I'm going to go and ask them about this.
Grant: I'm just going to go and talk to them.
Nate: One, two.
Grant: And it can be quite uncomfortable for a lot of people. I get it. But the rewards of just being brave that one minute and going doing that. And then the next time you do it, you go, well, I did it last time and nothing bad happened.
Grant: I'll do it again, I'll do it again. And again, that's how you build up your own confidence. You might be dying inside with stage fright, but how you present yourself is, you know, it doesn't get easier, but you get more used to doing it is the way I find it.
Nate: one
Grant: I still feel really nervous about having to do an opening meeting in front of 30, 40 people that I've never met before, who are all just sitting there looking at you going, what do you want?
Nate: Yeah.
Grant: But I know I can do it because built up the skills and the training and all that to know I can do this and no one's going to die. But it doesn't mean to say you can't still feel we were nervous inside sort thing. So it's it's developing the skills to be able to do it rather than going, yeah, I'm great at this. It's fine.
Nate: And I think like my my advice here is start small. Like you might have a general interest in in a career or something, but it doesn't have to be walking up to someone and like asking for mentoring.
Grant: me
Nate: and It could just be, start with hello, we start with good morning and say good morning a few times and then ask, actually, I love your job.
Grant: Yeah.
Grant: Yeah. What do you do
Nate: Like, tell a little bit about that and sort of build that build that up.
Grant: do? Absolutely.
Nate: It doesn't have to be this big daunting conversation.
Grant: Yeah. And you don't you don't need to have a big plan. Like you say, it's one conversation and it could be, I walk past this person every day.
Grant: i have no idea what they do, but it looks fascinating. And you say, it's just that one. can I come and sit with you for an hour at some point in time? I'd really love to know what you're doing. I'd really love to understand what you're doing. I'd really love to know how what you do and what I do all fits together and and my mate makes the the business running.
Grant: And that's the first step. You don't need to have, ah right, well, I need to see these nine departments and blah, blah. Because back to the calendar, there's a bit of it's great have a plan, but you might go and speak to the first department and it takes you down a completely different tangent. So have an idea, but I wouldn't say, you know,
Grant: set it all in stone ah type thing, be open to going with it. It's interesting though that you you touch on the like the coaching in the mentoring thing and that's something that we do in our company and I am a mentor but I have also um reached out to have a mentor myself and now I have specifically in the past as well reached out to mentors who have worked in very very different areas of the company to me that both peer-to-peer people that you know that that are working on my level uh people that are working slightly higher up the food chain um and even speaking to people that are in you know maybe in the
Nate: Ah.
Grant: corporate structure things um lower down the food chain because you can learn a lot from them, from everybody.
Nate: yeah
Grant: um I'm hoping that my my next mentor is our commercial director. I know nothing about the commercial side of an airline and and really what we do other than what you get in business briefs.
Grant: I also, when I did my degree, was really, really terrible at the commercial module on it as well. And it's not because I want to be a commercial director, but it's like somebody is working in this business. They've got a different take on it.
Nate: um
Grant: They've had different experiences to get here. And I think that, you know, goes back to something useful that you can that you can take from it. And then as a mentor, something that you can pass on if anyone comes to you as as well.
Grant: So it's it's about exploring all those various different opportunities that you know about and finding out about ones that you don't know about, but just sitting down and having a chat and
Nate: Mm-hmm.
Grant: reaching out to someone, I would say.
Nate: And I've coached across multiple industries, but I have to say that the aviation industry in particular seem to be very open to mentoring. Like, it doesn't matter how senior you are, because the industry is sort of elusive.
Nate: Like, it's not it's not as sort of well-known as other industries, and and the people within it are quite happy to to share their experience and to really help out those trying to enter.
Grant: Hmm.
Nate: so i look, nothing nothing lost, nothing gained, right?
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: Like, ask the question, just have ah have a quick chat. and and open up that conversation.
Grant: um Absolutely. and if you there's There's a few so little idioms and and phrases um ah around the aviation industry, um and and it it speaks just to that now. One of the kind of jokes is always, how do you know if you're talking to a pilot?
Grant: He'll tell you. um you know a islet But you know that that's nothing against pilots because, to be fair, anybody in the aviation industry would be exactly the same.
Nate: Yeah. yeah
Grant: and a And if somebody shows an interest, and I speak personally here as well, I've been doing it 30 years. I don't find it really boring, but it's it's just my job. I don't get the fascination in it that people ah who aren't in it get it because it's what I do.
Grant: um and My husband is fascinated by the, you know, whenever we go on holiday, why are they doing that? Where do they go there? And where does that go? And what's that do? And what are doing out there? And why they at the back of the aircraft? And should they not be there?
Grant: And I was just like, please stop asking me questions. It's just work. I'm not looking out the window. I'm on holiday. um But you forget because you're in it, you know, whether you're carbon crew, you're pilots, whether you work in the head office, that that people are genuinely interested.
Grant: And therefore, people that are in the aviation industry, we will talk the hind legs off you. if you want to know, because we get that people are fascinated. We forget it ourselves, but it's lovely when when we see that people are genuinely interested to know.
Nate: Yeah. Fantastic. All right. Let's keep moving. um
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: Tools and resources. any Any tools or resources that you lean into often or anything you'd recommend for anyone to to check out?
Grant: We, um the... I would start with, and it' said I say again, because you deal with regulations, it's it's not the most scintillating. um It's a lot of reading. It's a lot of paragraph. It can sometimes be a lot of legalese.
Grant: But ah I would say resources are are good at Googling, certainly for aviation, the sort of operational like or engineering if you if you wanted to be an engineering and they're always very readily available on website in the UK here you can go for example to the UK Civil Aviation Authority website type in regulations type in OAPS regs it all comes up they have a lovely easy to read version that is slightly less legalese than the sort of legal documents have to produce.
Nate: Okay.
Grant: I know that EASA for the majority of Europe have the same and the states they have the FAA. So any national authority will normally have a portal um where you can go and look up the regulations because because I do that in the course of my job. i go That's my main touch point.
Grant: um There again, there's other like international standards that you might want to look at. So websites like ICAO and IATA have guidance material and all that on there, which you would be, um which you would be ah kind of good s serve to go in, best serve to go and have ah have a look there as well. And it can give you some guidance.
Grant: That's the set of basis for a lot of things we do in terms of tools. There's a lot of, and you know, we've got a lot of apps and how you record stuff, but you know, the the be general stuff like, you know, ah you could the probably have online courses at LinkedIn learning and we do a lot of courses online as well. Many other um organizations, they'll probably be a YouTube video, but like, uh,
Grant: all those effective listenings and how to ask a good question and you know that a lot of that interpersonal stuff that just makes you think how can you develop those skills uh because sometimes you can't develop those skills until you actually go and do it so those kind of things would be a really good basis to for people to kind of I maybe don't know the details, but I can develop skills to be able to be a good question, you know, good note taker as well.
Grant: Being able to write quickly and being able to, in my case, go back and read your own handwriting two days later. All little bits like that. How do you, um you know, those are all little good skills as well that you could use for, certainly for the role that I point do as well.
Nate: Yeah, those those soft skills. just want um another pitch for coaching here.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: ah Having a coach, like it it gives you that safe space to ask those silly questions or to practice those difficult conversations because it's not easy.
Grant: Mm. Yeah.
Nate: And like if it was easy, everyone would put their hand up to be a manager or everyone would put their hand up to manage a global team.
Grant: Of course.
Nate: But it's not an easy job.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: And I think you've to break that expectation that you have to do it alone or you have to do it on your own.
Grant: Mm.
Nate: yeah people out there to support that, particularly with English as a second language. A lot of my, based in Hong Kong, a lot of my clients are based through Asia and having that safe space to ask those questions, is it really does it does take that pressure off when you do need to dive in and and have those conversations.
Grant: Yes.
Grant: Yeah. And the the thing that I found from coaching is and mentoring as both a ah mentor and a mentee, it's just having someone else that says, hu you know, taking a situation or scenario, have you thought about this?
Grant: Have you considered that? It's, you know, is someone even just reflecting about, well, you've just said this.
Nate: Yeah.
Grant: you know And it just it gets your brain firing and, oh, right, because, like you say, it's it's it's not something you just have to do by yourself. And just having someone to bounce ideas off, to bounce thoughts off and not feel the the pressure of a...
Grant: is this a really ridiculous question? If I go and ask that manager this, are they going to don't be ridiculous, go away, stop annoying me with silly questions, which I don't think any manager worth their white and gold would do.
Nate: yeah
Grant: But it's you know it's still a concern for some people that that aren't aware and that are wanting to find out. So, you know, using stuff like that, like like yourself and, you know coaching services, mentoring services would be invaluable, certainly around those soft skills as well, because, you know, if you're if you're going into managers and all that, again, it's all, you know, kind of of foreign territory. And there's an interesting thing as well, if if I may, you talk about the English note as a mother tongue there.
Grant: One of the things I learned from, and it's something that as a native English speaker, I never fully appreciated until I worked for for this, my last company,
Nate: Oh.
Grant: we wrote our instructions for one of the areas in English and everyone that worked for us across Europe um and had it in English.
Grant: and And you know what the Brits are like, we're terribly polite. So we never, you know, a lot of the instructions may have said, well, you know, you should do this and you should do that you should do this should do that because, mean, who are we to tell people what to do?
Grant: However, cut forward to me out there in the oil and saying well why aren't you doing that well it doesn't tell me i have to do it it tells me i should do it and i was like yeah so why aren't you doing it and they went because if it if it meant me to actually do it it would say you must do this but of course because we're terribly terribly british with it all we were like it you know it was written kind well you know
Nate: Oh no. Yeah.
Grant: I'm paraphrasing here and I'm not denigrating the very hard they went into, but you know, they but they were interpreting it in a very British way as as people that spoke English, a second language, and going, if you feel like it, you can maybe just do this.
Nate: yeah
Grant: and like, if you want us to do something, just say, you must do this. So I had to go back to head office and I'm you're going to have to rewrite that because this is how it's being interpreted people.
Nate: math.
Grant: speakers of English as a second language. And I think I actually went through one of the manuals and it was someone like, there are 536 occasions of the word should, and there's seven of shall.
Nate: not my
Grant: um We maybe need to switch it around then. We have to be very un-British about it and just say, just do it like this. But it's, it's an interesting thing that I think a lot of, certainly a lot of people, if you're coaching people, uh,
Grant: with English as a second language, it's a different take on stuff like regulation because regulation is all about interpretation um and how that language is interpreted as well.
Nate: normal.
Grant: And that's very different from a native English speaker to someone who is really as a second language. which can I just say amazes me. I've got schoolboy French and German and um it helped me out here and there but you know anybody that's doing that job in a second language for the majority of the I can't bow down enough to them I think it's amazing so yeah yeah
Nate: I agree completely. It's just it's just amazing. but I wish I could speak multiple languages, but sadly not. But it's pretty amazing.
Grant: yeah
Nate: So tell me, as we wrap up, do you have a quote or a mantra or some advice that you lean into when things get tough or on a daily basis?
Grant: i Yeah, i was I was having to think of it this. How how do you kind of sum up what gets you through? um but There's two there's two kind there's a short phrase and a kind of slightly longer phrase that I lean into.
Grant: At the difficult times, my line in my head as you're sat there sweating, thinking they are going to hate this. My line is always, you're doing the right thing.
Grant: You're doing the right thing. My job is safety and compliance. safety issues. It's about doing the right thing, making sure things are safe. That's why I'm paid. That's why my team do what we do because we're doing that. So my line is always, this might be difficult, but you're doing the right thing.
Grant: And the kind of wider kind context of it for me is if what I am doing saves just one life throughout the course of my entire career, then it will have been worth it.
Grant: that that that's the bit that always have to, you know, and we all get complacent on job, you know, there's that, oh, here we go again doing this, but we're doing the right thing. But if this saves one life, because everything in my world, every regulation and every direction that is written down in law, and this applies across the globe is there because something has happened and they have brought in a regulation to make it safer.
Grant: So everything that's there is there for a reason. It's not that someone sat down and just thought, I'm a bit bored, I'll create some rules.
Nate: for reason. Yeah. Hmm.
Grant: Everything is there because something has gone before it that didn't go so well.
Nate: yeah
Grant: And that might just be an incident. It could be a catastrophic accident. It could have been loss of life. It could have been a minor injury. But everything is there for a reason. And if I help uphold that and it saves only one life across my career, it will have been worth it sort thing.
Grant: Hopefully it's never needed to save any lives, but if it saves just one, it's worth it. that that that's but that gets me through the tough times when you think, oh, why didn't I just become a singing teacher or something else?
Nate: Yeah.
Nate: wow i
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: Oh, it's one of those jobs though. It's like being a politician, right? Because if you um um like you you do something and you get criticized for doing it, but if you hadn't done it, things would have been worse, but you don't get credit for how it could have happened.
Grant: e
Grant: Absolutely.
Nate: So it must be really difficult to find those moments where you can um you feel the achievement.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: But I think your mantra of it saves one life.
Grant: Yeah.
Nate: It's worth, that's the credit I need internally rather than an external credit.
Grant: Yeah.
Grant: Yeah, um absolutely. That's it. And again, come back to the comparison. I know you're, you know, you're background in HR. People don't, people never come to you and thank you for raising seven findings.
Grant: People never come back to you and say, well done for doing that disciplinary.
Nate: More.
Grant: You know, we get that. So you have to, you have to develop that resilience within yourself. You have to develop that resilience within the team. So, you know, between let my little team, they'll come back, they'll be frustrated. And I'm like,
Grant: You're doing the right thing, though. You have to remember you're doing the right thing. And we have to remember. And I mean, they get it now. They go, yeah, we know one life, one last. Yeah, but, ah you know, but it's there. That's the reason you have to remember it, because that's what gets you through the the days where you get to five o'clock and you go
Grant: and you go, um might just um might just go and work somewhere else.
Nate: yeah
Grant: You've got to have that something to drive you through. So, yeah, that that that would be to keep.
Nate: you making a difference
Grant: to keep for MD in this career or MD that's considered in that career. it's And it's very it's very, very fulfilled, can be very fulfilling and very worthwhile. And that's the driver behind it.
Nate: Fantastic. Well, on that note, let's wrap har but Thank you, Grant.
Grant: Yeah, it's been great to be here, Nate. Thanks very much.
