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Episode 2: From lab to land: the realities of soil health
43 Plays12 days ago
In this episode, we focus on what happens once knowledge about soils leaves research papers and experimental plots and begins to shape real-world decisions, from farming practices to risk assessment and policy. The conversation explores how scientific understanding translates into action, where gaps and tensions emerge along the way, and what helps bridge science, practice, and decision-making.
The episode also reflects on scientific careers and representation in soil science, following the International Day of Women and Girls in Science, and highlights the experiences and perspectives of women working in the field today.Links of the episode:
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Transcript
Introduction to Soil Health Series
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pardon My Planet podcast. I'm Anne-Charlotte, your host. This episode is part of a series dedicated to soil health. Across the series, we're exploring what healthy soil really means. In the first episode, we've explored what is soil with its ecosystem balance, a living fragile system beneath
Applying Soil Knowledge in Real-World Decisions
00:00:32
Speaker
our feet. In this episode, we are focusing on what happens once knowledge about soils leaves research papers and experimental plots and starts traveling into real-world decisions from farming practices to risk assessment and policy.
Meet the Scientists: Chiara and Virginia
00:00:49
Speaker
To explore that journey, I'm joined by two scientists who both ah work within the Bioservices and IMBES soil projects, two European-funded research initiatives that link soil research and decision-making.
00:01:03
Speaker
Chiara De Notares is a researcher at the Euro-Mediterranean Center on Climate Change. She started from hands-on agroecological research and now works at the interface between soil science, climate impacts and policy-oriented risk assessment. Virginia Sanchez-Navarro is a soil and agronomy researcher whose work remains closely rooted in the field, particularly in Mediterranean and semi-arid systems, looking at how practices like diversification and legumes actually perform under real farming
Bridging Science, Policy, and Reality
00:01:39
Speaker
conditions. Hello, Chiara and Virginia, and welcome.
00:01:42
Speaker
Hello, I'm Charlotte. Thank you for having us. Hello. Hello, and thank you for for being here for this episode. ah First, when we talk about soul health, we often mix several words together, scientific knowledge, policy decision, what actually happens on the ground. From the outside, it looks like one big picture, but in reality, these worlds don't always move at the same speed or speak the same language.
00:02:11
Speaker
Chiara, from where you work today, do you recognize this gap between science policy and what happens on the ground? That is indeed one of the one of the issues that I experience. When we think about science, we think about complexity. Doing scientific research means looking into things that we don't yet understand. Otherwise, we would not be studying them.
00:02:37
Speaker
And while we do that, we realize maybe that there are some priorities or some issues that should be addressed. But those priorities maybe don't go at the same time with political priorities. If we think about the European level in 2024, the European Parliament, well, there there were elections for the European Parliament and some priorities changed at that level. So we can expect that funding will be different in
Challenges and Solutions for Farmers
00:03:06
Speaker
the future. So we might not be able from the scientific community, now speaking from the scientific community perspective, we might not be able to continue doing the same type of research that we have been doing so far, even though maybe we have not found answers to all the questions that we have. And then when we go to the field level, so to stakeholders on the ground,
00:03:30
Speaker
They need to have solutions quickly. I see you, Virginia, nodding, talking about ah on the on the ground the timing and the quick ah solutions being needed. Yes, because i farmers, for example, need improvements in the soil in the short or a medium term.
00:03:53
Speaker
And this sometimes is impossible. Yes. Could you maybe try to give me a very concrete example of something that would be needed, for example, very quickly as a solution and that maybe you have experienced that takes much longer time in the policy level?
00:04:10
Speaker
One thing that comes to mind is, for example, ah pests and diseases that are linked to the soil. some Diseases are soil-borne and we might know that if you have good crop rotations and keep your soil healthy, then those diseases and pests might not a appear. But that might take some time. That's one of the cases when, I mean, for a farmer, it's a matter of losing the yield or not losing the yield. And and when we talk soil health, maybe you need a longer timeframe for planning and and be able to see the effect
00:04:51
Speaker
a little bit later.
Education and Practical Learning in Soil Science
00:04:52
Speaker
And for for all of this, I guess you need to have, for example, a data that you collect on the ground also to be able to inform every decision also that is taken up until the policy level. What is the type of data you are collecting pragmatically on the ground? Data from the organic matter and nutrients in the soil mainly, or for example, data related to the moisture in the soil, because farmers in this case use this kind of data, results from the soil analysis, or moisture sensors to adjust fertilization and irrigation, and then they can optimize inputs and reduce costs while improving soil health, for example. I guess also this type of the data is very useful for the overall discussion that there is about degradation, for example, of soil health ah and the soils in general in Europe.
00:05:53
Speaker
You have a huge amount of data. and This is something also that we've seen ah in the in the first ah episode because of the different types of soil, of the variety, complexity of the of the soil as well.
00:06:05
Speaker
Do you encounter challenges, for example, with farmers or land managers when discussing the subject of soil health and the necessity to change? Do you feel those challenges, even with all that data, let's say, as proof? Yes, always. For examples, I know of some farms that have adopted diversification strategies, such as intercropping, after saw the agronomic and environmental benefits related to the use of these practices.
00:06:36
Speaker
But at the beginning, it's so difficult to talk about this with with the farmers because always they say, i need incentives to develop this sustainable management practices and I need time to observe the improvements in soil health.
00:06:53
Speaker
Normally farmers and have problems with the establishment of practices such as a reducing tillage or the establishment of diversification systems because with this kind of sustainable management practices,
00:07:10
Speaker
They have initial cost, potential risk, and the lack of experience. this These are the the the main problems with the establishment of these practices. They prefer adopt practices such as changes in machinery or in the farming calendar because these practices have few changes.
00:07:30
Speaker
such as the establishment of simple cover crops or adjustments in fertilization or
Simplifying Science for Policy
00:07:38
Speaker
irrigation. A challenge, let's say, that is being almost transmitted to the students that you have who are already in this agricultural world and so on. You feel that this type of beliefs and of challenges are transmitted, let's say, to the the students you have?
00:07:55
Speaker
Like farmers, many students perceive soil science, for example, as not very practical. For both farmers and students, learning is more effective when based on practical experiences. to always ah Always show.
00:08:10
Speaker
Let's come back to what happens when soil knowledge moves into decision-making. Chiara, when soil science reaches policy or risk assessment processes, what do you feel is most often lost or simplified, let's say?
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah, when you were talking about data, um you said that we collect a lot of data from different contexts. And that's what we do, because that's important to describe the complexity of, well, in this case of soil conditions and how different management practices can affect soil. But when we want to translate that into decision making, we can't really open a lot of different parentheses saying this is the case when you have this type of soil in this type of context and under this type of management. So we tend to generalize and we lose the context-specific nature of soil and what happens in soil.
00:09:13
Speaker
I'm thinking about cover crops. In general, cover crops are great. In some specific conditions, they might actually compete for water with the main crop. So you need to specify how to manage that cover crop or which species you should ah prioritize and when you should plant it. And so there are a lot of detail details that need
00:09:42
Speaker
So one of the things that actually in relation also to incentives and and receiving support or in yeah being rewarded for adopting certain practices is that yeah You can be rewarded for doing something.
00:10:00
Speaker
So an action-based approach where you do something and you get a benefit. That's the easiest way to go. And it's the safest for farmers because they know that they will receive a benefit if they do something. But it might happen. It might be that the result that we expect is actually not achieved because under that specific condition, then you don't achieve the result that
Communication Across Sectors
00:10:25
Speaker
you would expect. So in that case, the monitoring, the impact is actually a good thing to do.
00:10:32
Speaker
Then it becomes tricky because you can't ask farmers to do something without knowing the outcome. So it's really a tricky balance. And there is a lot of debate on how to find a compromise between farmers.
00:10:46
Speaker
incentivizing farmers to do something, but ensuring that the results that we aim for are actually achieved. Also from the policy side, do you think, Chiara, that maybe the gap can also be about maybe language, about the way scientists, policymakers and farmers, for example, talk about soils?
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, indeed. That's one of the issues. And I think it has to do with the fact that ah When you are really into the complexity, for you that becomes the normality. So you're used to being very specific and technical maybe.
00:11:27
Speaker
And then it can be difficult to communicate what you know to someone who is looking at the same issue from the surface. And for me sometimes um it's difficult also to acknowledge that ah things that for me are obvious,
00:11:45
Speaker
are maybe not so obvious in reality.
Translating Biodiversity into Practical Tools
00:11:48
Speaker
So it's always nice to have ah to to collaborate with with people who don't have the same expertise as you and that can ask you the questions that make you realize that maybe you need to yeah communicate in a different way and that, yeah, you need to maybe take a step back and don't keep so many things for granted.
00:12:14
Speaker
With all of this in mind, you're both working within the bioservices and in BestSoil projects. Bioservices looks at how soil organisms support a essential ecosystem services and how this knowledge can be translated into indicators and tools for decision making. InBestSoil focuses on making soil health operational um by valuing ecosystem services, ah exactly as we we talked about a bit earlier, and creating also incentive and business models to encourage investment in healthy soils.
00:12:51
Speaker
How do those projects ah address this gap between complex soil silence and the need for usable tools for decision making?
00:13:02
Speaker
For me, both projects can be set to a start from the gap between scientific knowledge on soil biodiversity and on ecosystem services and its practical application in the field. There is abundant scientific evidence It is not translated into practical tools that they that can be used by farmers. This is an important point.
00:13:25
Speaker
For example, the establishment of diversification systems versus the monocrop. In this case, you have more biodiversity, more soil health. Then you will have an ecosystem services such as more production, reduce the contamination.
00:13:42
Speaker
For example, this kind of practices. Sometimes you have to show different practical exercises. Then you need a soil analysis. You can compare the soil in, for example, a diversification system with your monocrop. Then you will see the differences. Yeah, I think one of the interesting aspects that I'm also looking forward to, yeah, to see how it will evolve, is investigating the connection between soil biodiversity indicators, which are a lot, like you can measure a lot of different things, and the ecosystem services that, I mean, in in theory, we know that soil biodiversity is associated to a lot of different ecosystem services. But the idea specifically of bioservices is to clarify those connections and being able to translate
00:14:37
Speaker
Soil biodiversity into ecosystem services would make it more understandable also to farmers and stakeholders in general, because otherwise it's something that they don't see.
00:14:52
Speaker
Maybe they can observe earthworms or organisms that are bigger so they can see if there are a lot of earthworms or not. they don't see who if there are lots of bacteria in the soil and what type of bacteria and what do they do in the soil.
Success Stories and Gender Representation
00:15:10
Speaker
That's not visible for them.
00:15:12
Speaker
So being able to explain that connection and would also give more relevance to the importance of soil biodiversity because so far, also from a policy perspective, soil biodiversity is always a secondary objective is...
00:15:31
Speaker
addressed indirectly in policies. And that means that, yeah, it's generally not really monitored and incentivized. In the Soil Monitoring and Resilience Directive, there's a list of indicators that should be measured also in relation to soil biodiversity. Again, if farmers and land managers don't know what they are measuring, then I guess they are also less willing to do it. So making it more explicit would be really useful in assessing it and and preserving it and monitoring it.
00:16:06
Speaker
Maybe, if Virginia, have you seen ah situations where research really did lead to a change on the ground? Yes, for example, from my experience, I know of some farms that have adoptive diversification strategies, such as intercropping with legumes and reducing inputs.
00:16:29
Speaker
After learning about the economic and environmental benefits that these practices bring to the soil, using real case studies in different European projects, and the the main benefits of these ho these cases studies after this work is satis And i would like to take a step back from our very interesting conversation. At the moment we are recording right now this episode. Yesterday was the International Day of Women and Girls in Science. Science is often perceived as a very male-dominated field with a limited space for for women.
00:17:10
Speaker
Has this been your experience in the field of soil health? And what advice could you give to the younger generation of women who are interested in pursuing a career in this field? To both of you, as I'm very pleased to have two women scientists here, so I'm very ah happy to be able to ask you both the question.
00:17:33
Speaker
Regarding my experience, for me, working in soil science as a woman has been very rewarding. In this field, female representation is increasingly higher. In fact, in my workgroup, women are the majority. Nevertheless, having a mixed gender group is necessary.
00:17:51
Speaker
The main challenge in my field, I would say, is work-family balance, which affects and career progression. I think it impacts women more than men.
00:18:02
Speaker
This is because family responsibilities can limit availability for travel, conferences, or leadership positions. As for opportunities,
00:18:13
Speaker
The diversity and gender equity in science provides more chance to reach leadership positions. In addition to these inter interdisciplinary projects such as bioservices and in-best soil,
00:18:27
Speaker
and make visible the impact on the role of women in research, education and policy making. And regarding the advice, I would give several pieces of advice.
00:18:40
Speaker
First, trust your technical and scientific abilities and do not be afraid to to participate in debates, podcasts or take on leadership roles in projects. Second, seek mentors that provide guidance and confidence to overcome challenges. And finally, be patient, because career progress is so federal.
00:19:06
Speaker
But every contribution contribution you make comes to your personal growth, to your professional development, um to the positive impact on soil science. I actually agree with what Virginia said. At the moment, I'm not in a group of soil scientists, but I can say that also in my working environment, we are predominantly women, actually. I'm also positive yeah in in seeing that the number of women, the proportion of women being involved in natural sciences in general is increasing, and that's really reassuring. On the other hand, think we we need to be aware of biases that we might have, even unconsciously.
00:19:50
Speaker
I myself took an unconscious bias test at some point, specifically investigating the relationship between gender and scientific career. So I am biased, unconsciously biased, of course, towards thinking that men are more suitable for scientific disciplines compared to women.
00:20:11
Speaker
It's of course, it's an unconscious bias, but it's something that I probably absorbed through my life and being aware of it is a good way to follow also Virginia's advice, knowing that I should trust my my skills and that I can take on leadership positions and that I can do what I'm doing.
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
00:20:29
Speaker
I think one of the aspects that I kind of experienced as an obstacle for myself was is again regarding language, because there there have been some studies looking at how positive language that allows you to describe your work more positively is associated with higher chances of success, for example, in funding acquisition and so on. And that
00:20:56
Speaker
is a little bit biased in in the sense that women tend to use less positive language than men in describing their own work. And we shouldn't be scared or concerned. We shouldn't be scared of being ambitious, basically. And just to say that I completely agree on the mentorship. Having good mentors is really crucial.
00:21:21
Speaker
One of the things that I really hope for the future is that people who are go up in the career progression and find themselves in like mentorship positions, acknowledge that sometimes we need to be trained. It's not something that you can just do. You can't just be a good mentor.
00:21:40
Speaker
So it's good to be trained into mentoring younger people. Chiara and Virginia, thank you very much for this conversation. ah it gave us a clear picture of what happens when soul science moves beyond research, meets the realities of farming, risk assessment, and policy.
00:21:59
Speaker
In the next episode, we'll focus on another critical dimension of soil health, polluted soils, what contamination means for ecosystems, food systems and human health and how Europe is addressing this challenge.
00:22:14
Speaker
This series is produced through several EU funded projects mobilized on soil health, bioservices, InBestSoil, Highlander and Edaphos. You can find all the details at lgi.earth slash podcasts. You can also listen to all the episodes of Pardon My Planet on Spotify and Apple podcasts. Thank you for listening.
00:22:36
Speaker
Until next time. Bye bye.