Transcript
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Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abyssaida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Speaker: I'm your host, Michael Millward, the managing director of Abbasida. Today, i will be learning about the Enneagram from Isra Carl Hiebensstrett.
Speaker: Carl is a certified executive coach, international speaker, author, and organizational development consultant. Carl is based in California. I have been, and I would go again. And when I do go again, i will make all my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club, because that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, package holidays, and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
Speaker: You can as well if you join the Ultimate Travel Club by using the link and offer code in the description. Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading, and subscribing to.
Speaker: As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Hello, Carl. Hello, Michael. Thank you for having me. It's a great pleasure to have you. Well, I'm starting off by saying it's a great pleasure. We'll have to work on making sure in half an hour, it's still a great pleasure.
Speaker: i think that'll be partly possible. my responsibility as well. i welcome the challenge. Let's do it. It's always nice when somebody else takes the responsibility for something. But I've also got to be careful what I say, because we're going to be discussing this EneerGam, and that is a personality assessment tool, isn't it? It is It is. It's considered a personality assessment tool. And the big difference between it and all the others out there, like Myers-Briggs and DISC and and Hogan and everything that's out there is that it really gets to your motivation. it's really a motivation typing tool.
Speaker: Okay. Well, before we get into that, please could we start by you explaining a little bit about your career, the books that you've written, and why it is that you do what you do today?
Speaker: Sure. Thank you for asking, Michael. So I got into human resources and organization development work when I was in college. I never expected or intended to be going into the human resources world.
Speaker: I started off school majoring in French and political science and then ended up taking psychology for extra credits because I needed them to graduate. And as I was taking psychology courses, I landed into one that was about industrial and organizational psychology or industrial and personnel psychology, and that hooked me.
Speaker: And so I decided that my career would really end up being in the realm of human resources and went for a master's degree in HR and ultimately PhD in organizational psychology.
Speaker: And during my PhD studies, I was introduced to this really different tool called the Enneagram, And it was very different from any other tool I had heard of or known about in all of my other studies or even practices when I was in human resources. And it was a game changer. It was a life changer for me because it really got to the point of not just explaining behaviors or describing behaviors, but really going into why the people were doing what they were doing.
Speaker: And the same behavior that you see may have a bunch of different possible motivators. And what we'd end up doing as human beings is we use our own histories and experiences and and perceptions and perspectives to come up with and make sense of someone's behaviors.
Speaker: And these, these are not necessarily why they're doing what they're doing. So we look almost like at the top of the iceberg. And really what we need to do is is look at beneath the waves. And the Enneagram is a way of helping us to understand what's beneath the waves.
Speaker: So if we see the behavior, but the Enneagram helps us to understand the thought processes that generate the behavior. Exactly. Not only for other people, but also for ourselves. We really always need to start with ourselves first for self-awareness, building that self-awareness.
Speaker: So it's it's a bit like before you should try and understand someone else, you should first understand yourself. Exactly. A bit like that physician heal thyself type slogan.
Speaker: Yeah, and Aristotle and Socrates have have mentioned similar variations on that. I mean, they were the originators of that. ah Always start with with yourself first. Right. Now, yeah the word itself, a neogam,
Speaker: For me, it sounds as if as if when you mention Aristotle and those of things, it sounds a little bit Greek. Yeah, it is a Greek name. It's definitely a Greek name. Good good catch on that.
Speaker: Enea is Enea, which is the number nine. And Gram is Grami, which is line. So there are nine different core archetypes, if you want to look at them that way, or energies or motivators.
Speaker: that each one of us will subscribe to one of these throughout our entire lives. So we have all nine within us, but one of them is dominant and will always be the driving force between everything that we do.
Speaker: If we are unconscious about it, if we consciously look to see what other ways might be better in this situation, we can tap into one of the other eight energies and be even more effective.
Speaker: All right. So we have Nine different motivating factors within ourselves, within our personality. Yeah. One of those will be our dominant motivation. Exactly.
Speaker: For your entire life. For our entire life. And is that decided by nature, a conception, birth, or is that something that comes from from nurturing? Yes.
Speaker: It's both. It's both. The answer is it's both. It's a combination of nature and nurture. If nature gives me out of those nine, one factor that is way above all of the others, that will be the dominant one. But if nature gives me three factors that are relatively equal, then my nurture, how I am brought up will influence which one of those three becomes my dominant trait.
Speaker: It could. um the way that The way that I understand it is that you are predisposed to one of these core motivators in your life and you in your childhood will experience many different things. And the way that your predisposition or your wiring is will will have you deal with or cope with whatever this major, some people call it ah a trauma or childhood trauma or something. You will perceive something as a childhood trauma through the lens of that predisposed wiring of your motivation, your core motivation. Other people may have that same exact experience happen to them, but they don't react the same way.
Speaker: So they may have a different way of looking at the situation, but they may have a different item, a different experience that they feel is more traumatic to them than you might using your lens.
Speaker: So whatever that experience is in your childhood is the defining solidifier of that core motivator. So this is where, for example, you can have two brothers who go through the same experience and people look at them and go, well, that experience was the making of the first brother and it was the breaking of the second brother.
Speaker: It could. It could, and twins, twins do not have the same Enneagram type. So you would think that if if it were purely from nature, then they would.
Speaker: But nurture, and and we know that twins don't both receive the same exact experience when they're growing up. So those also come into play in solidifying what the Enneagram type is.
Speaker: I'm fascinated. I am. It sounds... Good. Mission accomplished. I am. I'm fascinated. and it's so But we haven't yet talked about what these nine are.
Speaker: Yes. That's even more fascinating. Right. So the way that I found that the Enneagram lands with people is to look at it and break it down into smaller chunks.
Speaker: And you can even decide as we go through those chunks, which one is probably your primary core motivator. But the way that they are chunked is in a way of different styles. So you can have a thinking style. Well, you will. You will have a thinking style. You will have a feeling style. And you will have an action style.
Speaker: So you will have a way through which you access your head to think. You will have a way through which you access your heart to feel. And you will have a way through which you take action.
Speaker: So the the simplest way to do it is let's start with let's start with head. So thinking styles are probably the easiest to to really get a grasp of.
Speaker: There's one that's about being very objective. There's one about being worst case scenario planning, and there's one about being very optimistic. So the type five is the one that's most objective and always looking to gather all the information and data possible to create models so that they can portray themselves in the best light and not look foolish. So when you say that's number five, I automatically think yes that's in the middle of the nine.
Speaker: Is there a reason why that is right in the middle of the nine?
Speaker: It's not necessarily a reason for it to being the middle. So the the middle is between like the four and a half would be the middle. So there's an interesting component when you look at the circle, the diagram, the four and the five are at the bottom of that circle, right? There's like a, there's a space that would be like where the exact center of the circle would be if you drew a line through it.
Speaker: And the four and the five straddle that. They're on either side of it. But it's the dis that the gap between the feeling center and the thinking center. so and And there's a reason why all these numbers are situated in the circle in the order that they're situated in.
Speaker: Which is? Yeah. ah ah so So there are many different mathematical rules of play in the actual symbol itself. So there's the rule of seven, there's the rule of three, the rule of three is in the middle, but triangle with three, six, nine in the middle. And all the others are following the rule of seven. And basically you can create the the way that you can access the different styles, which is getting very deep at this point. so But if you divide any of the numbers by the number seven,
Speaker: except for seven, of course, because then you'll get one. But if you divide the other numbers by the number seven and omit the three, six, nine in the middle, because that's its own entity, you will actually see the directionality of which way to go when under stress or under comfort.
Speaker: For whatever your core type is, it's attached to two other points within the circle. And one of them is your stress point automatically, and the other one is automatically your release point.
Speaker: So there's, it's a whole complex system. ah usually don't get into that at the first introduction, the first blush meeting with the Enneagram, but that is the, the reason for it. So this is not just a, a way of working out how someone can behave at work, but how they will behave generally as well, whichever, whatever the situation is.
Speaker: Yeah, so you have your core motivator, which is your home base. And then if you're under stress, you will behave a different way. And if you're in comfort, you will behave a different way. But your core motivation still remains the same. way in which all of these things are identified is actually quite mathematical.
Speaker: There is a mathematical base to it, yes. So, know, before we started, and I don't normally mention things that we discussed before we pressed the record button in the actual recording, but before we started, I said I would ask you what your favorite one of the nine was. And and you told me that that was like asking a parent to choose their favorite child.
Speaker: Exactly. Unless they only have one child and that's easy, right? But we don't only have one type. We have not all nine types within us. like What type are you?
Speaker: I lead with type two, which is the, it's in the heart center, which is the helper or giver. Right. And so as a helper or giver, what type of person do you work best with? Is it another helper giver or is it one of the other types? You probably tend to understand the motivations of someone who is the same type as you better or more than other people. But the reality is, or, and the reality is, As long as you do the work and you understand that different people come from different perspectives and motivations, we get better results by working with people who have different and diverse perspectives because they're looking at things differently. They have different histories and and and experiences that help them to have ah a more robust way of looking at it. So the reality is even though you might more easily get along with someone who is the same core type as you, and if they share the same values as you, by the way, that's a big differentiator there too.
Speaker: The reality is that as long as you, are aware that there are differences in other people and we get a better product and more innovative solution by tapping into that diversity, then it's it's best to to work with others who have different backgrounds and different perspectives and different core motivators.
Speaker: Which type, which of the other eight would someone with your um type, number two, the helper giver, which one would you find most difficult to work with?
Speaker: So it depends on healthiness levels, right? So you could, you could find any of the types difficult to work with if they are unhealthy, if they're not aware of their type and aware of their limitations within it. And if they're only, only approaching everything from their types perspective.
Speaker: So the healthier a person is, and the more that they can flex into the other eight styles, the easier it is for anyone to get along with them. Right. I'm thinking back to what you said. I'm not giving you an answer on that. i was i try to get me to do I was thinking like, you should be a politician. You have answered the questions very eloquently, but actually just told me,
Speaker: Not an awful lot. but But what you have said without saying it is that, as you said a few minutes ago, is that the most important thing is to understand yourself. Exactly.
Speaker: And then understand other people within the context of yourself. Right. then if the other person also has gone through the process of understanding themselves, I suspect that it's a lot easier to find common ground. It's a lot easier to find that that sweet spot which will enable you to work together.
Speaker: Yes, and it's not only the common ground, but it also is, oh, what about the differences? What can we learn from the differences, from the additional perspective that the differences offer us?
Speaker: So what am I not thinking about? If I'm only concentrating on, for example, the type two, the is, is really focused on connections and relationships with people. Right? So what am I not focusing on?
Speaker: What happened to the task? i get I need to get the task done too. If I'm always helping other people and I'm not doing my own task, my own task isn't getting done. So who's going to keep me on track for my own tasks performance? Or if I'm always in my my heart and my feeling center, when do I ever get to action or to thinking?
Speaker: So how do i make sure that I include that as well? There will be one... person in a group of nine for example who will have the skill the talent the element of the enneagram that will be the person who can help you to do the things that you aren't naturally minded to do. It's not that you're not good at them, but motivate you. So you would be motivated by being nice to everyone in the group. but what you're saying is that the the positive side of that is that you would be the one who would be calming the waters if there was a disagreement, finding resolve and disassociation. Yes. And there are other types that do that even better than the type two does. So the type nine is really, really good at doing that.
Speaker: that's the mediator or peacekeeper and they're in the action center. So they're the ones that are totally avoidant of conflict. They don't want conflict because they want everyone to get along and they go along to get along. And they are, their gift is that their ability to see that all these different perspectives are all necessary and important and they're part of the whole system and we need to pay attention to all of them.
Speaker: So they're, they're looking at the whole system's perspective And that slows them down a little bit because they don't want to take immediate action until they consider all the different elements. Right. Even though they're in the action center. I'm beginning to feel like an expert, but that probably will put me into some sort of one of these groups. And it's like, but listening, I'm listening and I'm thinking as a helper giver,
Speaker: you you are wanting to be helpful to people. But because there is this number nine, who is the motivator, the peacekeeper type person, and that's in that action center, you will think about it. You'll feel it.
Speaker: You'll feel that something should be done. You'll want to do something. But the person who's more dominant, number nine. Yeah, I'll intuitively know. Yeah. Yeah. Is the person, the person who's a number nine is the more likely person to actually put it into action.
Speaker: Eventually, I would say eventually, depending on how connected they are to taking the right action. So it it it really depends on a lot of different factors. let's ah Let's continue. So we we mentioned the 5, 6, 7 was in the thinking center, right? So one of those styles is going to be yours, whether you're more objective or whether you're more worst case scenario planning to be safe, comfortable, and secure. That's the type 6.
Speaker: Or whether you're type 7, which is the epicure, adventurer, or visionary, always looking at What's possible? What opportunities can we take advantage of? What what are the good things that can happen? What are the fun things?
Speaker: Each one of us is going to have a stronger preference or style in one of those three archetypical motivating types. So feel free to pick whichever one is yours between five, six and seven. Objective is five. Worst case scenario planning is six. And best case scenario planning is seven.
Speaker: I'm probably a seven. I know I'm not a six. I don't think about the worst side of things because I'm always going to make it better. I can solve anything. That's my belief. Not always correct me.
Speaker: Oh, and sixes do that. Sixes solve. that They're great problem solvers. That's the whole point. that They're looking at solving the problem specifically by making sure that they have a backup plan if something goes wrong. So number seven, ah the optimistic one could actually just be looking at things through rose-tinted glasses. Oh, you got it right. You said you were getting to be an expert. You got that. Yes. You're a helper and a giver, right? That also has rose-colored lenses to attached to it too.
Speaker: I think I still have a lot to learn, though, but I am fascinated and I'm wondering about, know, as someone like yourself who's been using this for a long time, you must have used it in all sorts of different organizations. Absolutely. And I think, you know, we've got a bit of the theory. There'll be ways in which we can get more of that, which we'll put in the description and talk about at the end. But i'm I'm intrigued and fascinated. So tell me about some of the the changes that you have seen happen when people have started to use this Enneagram.
Speaker: So the the easiest way to introduce the Enneagram to people who have never heard of it before is to show it to them in as a pain point. Like, how can we how can we alleviate a pain point for you? And a lot of times in organizations,
Speaker: Teams or leaders of teams will come to you and say, I'm having an attrition problem or an engagement problem, or ah i just can't seem to get my people motivated to do the work and they they're not happy and they leave. So you're talking about real business issues? Real business issues. Yeah.
Speaker: Everyone has these. If we figure out, if we go through an exercise and let's say we have a leadership team in a room together and we do this quick exercise, like we just did with you and you picked seven between five, six and seven.
Speaker: And then we have them pick between two, three and four, which is your feeling size, a type. How do you access your heart and your feelings? Is it two, like the two and always looking externally and intuitively knowing what other people need and providing that help? Is it three, really pushing down the feelings and focusing more on the task at hand and the goal that needs to be achieved, which is the performer?
Speaker: Or is it four, more about feeling your own feelings and everyone else's feelings, like an artist? um And it it's it's different people will put their hands up for different ones of those styles, even though they're all leaders or on the same leadership team.
Speaker: And then you do the action center, eight, nine, and one. Eight is take immediate action. That's the boss, protector, director. The nine is slow down. Let's make sure that we have everything considered. Let's look at all the different implications. We don't want to create conflict.
Speaker: And the type one is the perfectionist or reformer. It's like, what is the right thing to do in this situation based on our rules, our ethics, our values? So you will each...
Speaker: Each person in that room will raise their hands for a different one of those three types, which in those three centers are clusters. And you'll immediately start seeing the diversity that's in that room and say, hold on a second. I thought everyone was thinking the same way I was or feeling the same way I was or taking action through the same lens that I am. Now I understand that there are differences.
Speaker: Yeah, this is very interesting because when you say going to describe the various different elements of the nine, And then I'm gonna ask people to put their hands up and identify which one they are themselves.
Speaker: This probably puts me into a particular group or not, you can tell me, but I'm imagining that there will be people saying, well, I'm a one, for example, and other people in the room will be going like, no, you're not.
Speaker: I've never seen you do that. But you believe that you're doing that. but People aren't experiencing you do that. What happens in those sorts of situations? So that's a great ah self-awareness activity, right? So you can see how you are showing up and how you're showing up may not be how you actually are, right? So other people may be experiencing you differently, but that's not what you truly are.
Speaker: So they may, because we can't read people's minds. And the whole point is the motivation. So if the person tells you that I am motivated by this, this is what motivates me. They're the ones, they're the the final arbiter of who can tell you what their motivation is, is the person.
Speaker: There's no, you can't do it. A test can't do it. A test can lead you in the direction of it and and help you to to define it for yourself. But ultimately the person, him or herself or themselves, they are the ones to tell you what is their true core motivation because you can't see it.
Speaker: You can't read their minds. You don't know what's going on. Yep, exactly. So that you may be experienced in a different way, but the core motivation is the core motivation.
Speaker: It's very interesting. Mm-hmm. It is the iceberg. It is what people feel. it is their core motivation, like you say, that then conjures up questions around how are we as an organization forcing them to adapt to us so that we don't see them operating to their core motivation. Yes, exactly. So we have, and I'm going to, I'm going to really rely on my experience in Western organizations, Western world organizations, and,
Speaker: the rewards and recognition mechanisms that we have really only reward the promotion of three different types out of the nine. So we're really focusing on only rewarding three different types. The other six types are ignored and in fact demotivated or disengaged. There's more disengagement around that if you want to look at it that way. I want to look at it in every way I can. So You Carl, I am fascinated. And the more that I hear you talking about it, the more fascinated I become. Good.
Speaker: There isn't enough time to cover everything that I would like. And I'm sure there are people listening who will be thinking like, there must be a book about this. There must be a book. There are many books. Not just by me, but many books. Yes.
Speaker: therere up There are, but there is one written by somebody called Carl Hebenstrecht, I believe. yes So what's the title of that book, please? So back in 2016, and now it's in its third edition, it's called The How and Why Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram.
Speaker: And it really is a practical guide to show people how to use the Enneagram in business in all facets of business and all organization development interventions. We will put a link in the description to where people can find that book alongside a link to your own website and all the other books that you have written because you are quite a prolific writer and a very good writer as well. so But for today, Carl, unfortunately, our time comes to an end and I have to say thank you very much. You have lived up to the promise and been a very interesting guest. Thank you very much.
Speaker: It's been my pleasure, Michael. Thank you for creating this forum to share these independent thinking strategies. oh Thank you. To get people to think, not telling them what to do. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Al-Khal Hebenstraet.
Speaker: You can find out more about both of us at abasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description, along with links to Carl's websites and the opportunities to look at his books.
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Speaker: So all in all, that description is well worth reading. If you've liked this episode of The Independent Minds as much as I have, Please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
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Speaker: Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.
