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The Archaeology All Around Us - Episode 22
477 Plays7 years ago
On today's episode, Chris and April are joined by APN co-founder Tristan Boyle to talk about his recent experiences in Italy and his revelations about archaeology. Archaeology and history are everywhere you look. Take a look around you and see - really see.
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Transcript
Introduction and Member Benefits
00:00:00
Speaker
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Episode Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:42
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Hello and welcome to the archaeology podcast episode 22. I'm Chris Webster.
00:00:50
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And I'm April Camp Whitaker. On today's show, we're going to be talking to the co-founder of the APN, Tristan Boyle, about the archaeology that's all around us. Let's dig a little deeper.
00:01:07
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All right, welcome to the show. So if you are listening to this and you saw the archaeology show pop up for five seconds a couple of weeks ago, as this posts, we tried to record this live and that's going to work at
Challenges and Adaptations in Live Podcasting
00:01:21
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some point. We're going to get these live. So if you haven't liked the archaeology podcast network Facebook page, go ahead and do that so you can get a notification when we do go live. And then we're not just going live because I like seeing my face on here, but
00:01:37
Speaker
But anyway, we're not going live so we can do that. We're going live and then we're also posting the show as audio later on so you can still listen to it, of course, just like normal. But the whole point of the live one is so we can interact with our audience and you can ask questions. You can hear us recording live. If we have an interview, we might not be responding to comments unless we
00:01:57
Speaker
Get really used to this and we say reserve the last 10 or 15 minutes of the show for comments or something like that I don't know. It's a it's a whole brave new world for us. So We'll figure that out, but I've got to figure out how to use this freakin mixer first so I can get it working right and I'm gonna probably you know solicit Tristan's help later on and and Richie Cruz who's my friend coming in we're recording
00:02:20
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You call this archaeology today as we're recording this show.
Archaeology in Everyday Life with Tristan Boyle
00:02:23
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So anyway this episode however is running smoothly now and we have a Somewhat special he's always special I guess special guest but We have the co-founder and I guess my partner in crime with the archaeology podcast network mr. Tristan Boyle on with us Tristan now
00:02:47
Speaker
Well, I'm well, I'm well, yeah. It's definitely not a special thing to have me. You would completely regret this. So let's get this over and done with. This is one of those days. I know. See, this is when I wish we had two separate tracks for you guys coming in so I could just delete your track entirely. And then it's just April and I having a conversation like normal. So, but we got to make you feel better, Tristan. So we brought you in on the show.
00:03:09
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Thank you, Chris. Anything to help you out. Actually, the reason we have you on is because Tristan and I were talking, because we talk relatively frequently about APN stuff and other things, and Tristan was recently on vacation, I'll translate that into European, on holiday.
00:03:30
Speaker
for in Italy not too long ago and out there with his girlfriend and you made some observations. So Tristan, why don't you kick off this topic with some of the observations you were making. And there's also an Arc 365 about this very topic too. So go look that up. Yeah. So basically, obviously, as a normal tourist would, I went to all the tourist sites in Italy, you know, I went to the Coliseum, I went to all the
00:03:59
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I've been corrected by Italian people on how to pronounce the name for the cathedrals, but I basically, I don't know what it was specifically, but I felt that there was a different connection the Italians had to their history than what I know over here in the UK to our history. And it got me thinking about
00:04:20
Speaker
how kind of we preserve history over here and how history is a part of modern life. You know, when you're in Italy, even the streets are old, you know, streets are old, and they're they're paved in such a way that you're like, oh, okay, that's, that's interesting. Like the street is interesting. You know, you go into places and you find kind of strange little things
00:04:44
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from the past, design choices, little kind of formations that you really wouldn't see every day. And these are just part of a normal, average city. These are kind of built into the way things are. And
00:04:58
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I began to think about, well, what does that mean for us? Like, how does that kind of work over in the UK? And I'm sure you guys can comment in America, but ultimately, what is the history in the archaeology around us? Because it wasn't just these sites that you go to that were outside the cities, they were very much a part of the main kind of coming and going that you would do in the city anyway. So it got me thinking about the archaeology all around us.
00:05:27
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and perhaps a better way of kind of absorbing that kind of archaeology. So with all that in mind, I decided to set about doing an 3.65 episode, talking about how I kind of saw Scottish heritage, because I've now lived here for seven years. Oh, God, it's been a long time. Yeah, seven years. So I kind of feel as though I know bits of the place. But when it comes to the heritage here,
00:05:55
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there's a kind of a different feel about it. You know, often you'll have to travel a little bit to go and see the stone circles or the castles and stuff. And, you know, there's not really that kind of central, undeveloped kind of history there. Or so I thought, and when I kind of thought about it more, I began trying to see everything, not just the ancient past, or the deep past, but the more modern history as a part of that heritage, too.
Human History in Our Environment
00:06:25
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You know, like every single building, every single street that you have, they're all made by somebody. They're all part of material culture created by humans. You know, every single brick in the wall that you pass that somebody put it there. I wasn't machine made. Somebody literally got up.
00:06:43
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had their breakfast, had their cornflakes, other cereals are available, they had a shower, they put their clothes on, they went out to work, they, you know, mixed up the cement, they had a chat with somebody, they were putting these bricks together. And it made me think about then how in the past did people do this as well? You know, can we imagine when people building things in the past,
00:07:09
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do they have their breakfast and do they have a nice conversation? How were they then tied to it? And it opened up this whole idea of how could we reciprocately talk about both the past as an interesting topic and see it as it is, but also then conversely apply that to the history we have right around us.
00:07:31
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I hope that kind of makes sense. Do you know where I'm coming from? I mean, do you ever look at the streets and think, OK, I wonder why somebody did this? Obviously, America is a bit younger. And so it is a little different. But do you know where I'm coming from?
00:07:47
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Yeah, and you know, I'll start because first off, every time you say archaeology is all around us, that song from Love actually goes through my head. But I don't know if that's just me. Anyway, and I can't stop thinking about it now. I can't think of that old guy singing archaeology is all around us. Anyway,
00:08:08
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So, yeah, I think that's true. And it's funny, Tristan, that you're like, you think that about Italy, like you were in Italy and you had this revelation. I mean, because when we were in Scotland just two years ago, I mean, obviously coming from America, Scotland was all like that for us, you know? And I was in Italy last year and Italy was of course all like that. I mean, we were living in this small town where I think
00:08:33
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Almost every single structure had some sort of antiquity to it compared to stuff for the United States. Of course, there's some new things, but we're in a small town and a lot of the things there are just really old, especially the streets. So it's interesting, and I was talking to my wife about this topic yesterday, I think, or this morning or something.
00:08:53
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I think Americans tend to forget not only about the, I guess, more recent history around us, because it is more recent compared to other countries, but we also are surrounded, if you know how to look at it, we are surrounded by ancient history as well. And, you know, the Native Americans have been here for, you know, disputed, but they've been here for at least 12 to 14,000 years. It's a pretty concrete date, and it could go back way, way farther.
00:09:20
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Especially if you live in the Midwest or something like that, that little rise in that farmer's field or that little hump in the forest is possibly a mound, even a burial mound built by Native Americans 3,000 years ago.
00:09:37
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And you just don't know. And walking out here in Nevada, walking out here on the ground, you see stuff all around you. And I see a random projectile point or arrowhead sitting on the ground. And man, I sit there and think about it sometimes. And I'm like, how did this get here? What is the sequence of events?
00:09:53
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that led this thing to get here, because it was quarried by somebody, or a cobble was found, and it was shaped, it was carried, it was probably treasured in the fact that they're not easy to come by, not easy to make. I mean, probably back then they were, but...
00:10:09
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Um, somebody really wanted this thing and now it's lying fully intact on the ground. What the hell happened to make that happen? Is that the person die? Was it an arrow that misfired and they never found it again? It didn't happen to break when it hit. What is, was it inside an animal carcass that they processed and then just missed the arrowhead and trying to clean it back out. And now the animal's gone, but the arrowhead remains, you know, I mean, what, uh,
00:10:31
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What's the deal? I don't know. And April, I know down in Phoenix where you are, the pueblos and things like that are just all over the place. Yeah. I think in the Southwest, it's really easy to see the archeology in the prehistory because it sits on the surface of the ground. So you're hiking and all of a sudden there's a room block or a huge lithic assured scatter. Um, so it's actually quite easy to connect with the prehistoric archeology in casual and rock art and things like that, just in very casual manners.
00:11:01
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But I think it's a lot harder to appreciate kind of the urban archaeology because it's really recent. You know, I live in a house from 1959 and people like, oh, that's a really old house because for Phoenix, it's a pretty old house. But, you know, anywhere else it's not. So I've I do historic archaeology, so I'm interested in that more recent tangible past. So I find that, you know, just walking around town
00:11:29
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If you start paying attention and start kind of, it's about, I think we're not taught how to read either urban archeology or modern archeology very effectively, even as archeologists, because it's not something most of us focus in. And so once you start seeing it and thinking about it, you know, when you start walking around and you start asking questions like, why is this street laid out like this? This is a really weird diagonal street that cross cuts everything.
00:11:59
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Oh, there used to be a canal here. This is the road that ran along the edge of this diagonal cutting canal. Oh, okay. That's why we get some of these weird formations or why does this one house look this way? And so I think it really is. It's this process of learning to think about archeology as something that's always present. And I, I just don't think we're very good at teaching ourselves to that in part because a lot of us specialize.
00:12:28
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We see this archaeology we want to see. What what's the oldest? What's the youngest archaeology you can think of? What do you mean by youngest? Well, I mean, like, where's the cutoff point? Well, legally, it's 50 years for recording out here. I know. But I mean, like, seriously, you know, I mean, technically, in all seriousness,
00:12:55
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the last five seconds are the archaeological record, are they not? Where's the cutoff line? I think for historic stuff, which is what we're talking about as far as most recent, when does it become archaeology? Personally, I think it's
00:13:13
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Now, you have to separate preservation and things like that from archaeology, because archaeology is not an item like people tend to use it as. We tend to use archaeology as like a noun, but it's a process, right? Archaeology is a process of recording, systematically excavating, sometimes not excavating, but recording information and then writing that down. That's archaeology.
00:13:40
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To me, the two buildings that are across from my building where I live that are completely abandoned and they surround this old hotel that's from the 60s that should be abandoned because it's a total junk hole. But the two buildings on either side, those are completely abandoned and they're owned by the city now because they've been 100% abandoned and nobody wants to take them over because they have to be torn down or revitalized. I mean, that's archeology right there because they've been abandoned and now
00:14:07
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they're in a state of decay that's no longer being maintained. And to me, that's when archaeology could step in from a recording standpoint, but also from a preservation standpoint. Now, if you're maintaining a building that there's definitely buildings around me now, the building I'm speaking from right now, as a matter of fact, is being maintained in a current condition. To me, that's just historic preservation and it's not yet
00:14:33
Speaker
Considered archaeology if this building were abandoned and then somebody came back to a later and we're just start looking through it Now you're doing archaeology, but then again if we were to pop a test unit in the backyard Well, that's archaeology So but the yard underneath was technically abandoned, you know because the ground is abandoned as it builds up because we're not there anymore Yeah, it's an interesting question Okay, so when we moved into our house it felt like archaeology to me because
00:15:03
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the people who before us lived here for 50 years. And so as we cleaned the house and moved in, we're sort of doing the archeology of their lives and finding all of these tiny traces, reading things like you can look at the carpet in that older house and see where people put their furniture. You could see path lines. So, oh, somebody walked around something here for 50 years. And you could sort of see the marks and wear patterns
00:15:32
Speaker
And to me, it was sort of form of archaeology because what I was doing is trying to read and understand how a past occupant who is no longer there had lived in this space, how they had moved through it, how they had interacted with this material and built world. And so it's not traditional archaeology, but it kind of is. Well, I think this is the whole thing about, you know, as Binford famously said,
00:16:01
Speaker
Archaeology is anthropology or it is nothing. Of course, he was completely wrong. Archaeology is everything or it is nothing. Archaeology is the epitome of all understanding of the world that we live in. But that's just my opinion, man. I think when we talk about archaeology, I think it's too easy for us. Well, it's too easy to kind of go along with the standard societal view that archaeology is predominantly just about the far distant past.
00:16:30
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And I think that we can use the way in which we think about archaeology today to consider how really we behave, you know. I think archaeology has very much a reflexive view, not just reflexive in the sense of how we investigate things that we look at how we are looking, but rather we kind of begin to understand
00:16:54
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How we as humans affect the world in our own little ways and how we create things in a space like you were talking about the previous occupants of the house how they would leave things behind and then in contrast to how you've now use that space and I think bringing those kind of very normal things to people.
Continuity of Human Behavior in Space Usage
00:17:14
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and giving the public an idea that, well, people in the past would use their space in the same way that you use your space. I mean, there's no real difference. Humans have always used space for things. We have the kitchen to do one thing, the bathroom to do another, the living room for something else. And this is what people in the past had. The people in the past were not so different as people imagined.
00:17:40
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And by drawing those comparisons and bringing the past to people, I think we can get a higher level of interest and a higher level of understanding in that archaeology and the past. And I think that's what's key in kind of getting people involved in archaeology.
00:17:58
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Well, you know what's interesting about archaeology and anthropology is, I mean, if you break down the words, they mean exactly the same thing. You know, archaeo is Greek and anthro is Latin, but they both mean the study of humans. It's just we've taken archaeology to mean the study of past humans, right?
00:18:22
Speaker
But I don't necessarily really kind of agree with that, because we interchange the words so much. That implies that anthropology is the study of current human practice, like cultural anthropology and the variations on cultural anthropology. But then you've got paleoanthropology. That's not the study of current anything. And in fact, that's the study of pre-humans. So it's interesting, and I think if we
00:18:49
Speaker
If we just divorce archaeology, I don't know how we got on this, but we're going to go to break here soon. But to me, if we divorce the word archaeology from any sort of interpretation, and we bring it just back into a process and a science, and then we use anthropology to interpret that science, from whatever standpoint you want to study it from,
00:19:13
Speaker
then I think it becomes a little easier to see and a little easier to explain and no less cloudy. But I'll let you guys tell me I'm full of crap here in about 30 seconds.
00:19:27
Speaker
Hey podcast fans, check out the Ark 365 podcast at www.arkpodnet.com forward slash ark365. That's A-R-C-H 365 for your daily dose of archeology. Each episode is less than 15 minutes long and we have some great guests recording about awesome archeology. We also try to throw in some definitions and basic archeological information. So check out the 365 days of archeology podcast only in 2017 at www.arkpodnet.com forward slash ark365 today.
00:19:56
Speaker
Find us also on iTunes, Stitcher Radio, and Google Music by typing art 365 into the search. Now back to the show. All right, we're back. And as usual, Tristan disagrees with me in that archaeology and anthropology mean the same thing, but archaeology is a process. So Tristan, what the hell is wrong with you?
00:20:21
Speaker
Well, no, no, no, no, Chris, what the hell is wrong with you? You're trying to say, right. The thing is, archaeology is not, it is a nebulous thing. Like I would say archaeology is everything, because ultimately, archaeology has expanded beyond its, you know, standard kind of format of we dig the past. Instead, it's kind of, I think there's much more to archaeology than just talking about the past.
00:20:47
Speaker
to me, archaeology extends into the future. It extends into how we preserve that past, for what reason we preserve that past. And I don't think there's really a simple and easy way to divorce the, basically, the rituals that we perform as scientists and as anthropologists
Emotion and Public Engagement in Archaeology
00:21:08
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away from archaeology. You know, we can talk about how we can do biomolecular testing. XRF, that's x-ray.
00:21:17
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refraction, and a lot of other really cool chemical tests that we can do. But that doesn't take away from the fact that we always need to interpret information archaeology. And that's why archaeology is almost emotional in some way. But I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that archaeology provides both a way of us understanding the past
00:21:40
Speaker
But through that, we understand how our society currently exists as well. And so when you were saying about, oh, well, we leave the anthropology afterwards and we separately just do the hard science and archaeology, it doesn't really work with like that, because ultimately, when you just do the science, you're just doing science, you're not doing archaeology. And I don't mean that in like a.
00:22:01
Speaker
pejorative sense of it's not science. It's in a sense that science is merely a component of how we get that information, but not what we do with it. Archaeology is very much what we do with that information when we have it. And by connecting people to the ways and processes that we do in archaeology, by bringing archaeological ideas and emotions into everyday life,
00:22:27
Speaker
That's how we then make a case for why archaeology is important. Because that's what we're missing. We're missing the fact that archaeology is really important. And it's a really difficult, it's a difficult war to win. But we can't split it up.
00:22:44
Speaker
I'm not saying it's not important. I mean, obviously everything starts with archaeology, especially if you're not studying something that is current, like current cultural anthropology. You go out and study current living people, you interview them, you record what they do. With archaeology, we have to piece together that information, that same story from the remains, from what they left behind, from their trash, from their junk. So archaeology is everything in the sense that
00:23:11
Speaker
It all starts with that and I think about that a lot when I'm out recording on cultural resource management projects here in the United States because a lot of times, you know, because of the nature of CRM, we're going to be the last ones to ever see what we're recording. We're going to be the last ones to ever do anything with it because
00:23:28
Speaker
it's going to be destroyed. So the information that I write down, if I'm having a bad day and it's hot out and I don't have enough water left and my crew chief is irritating me and whatever's going on, and I decide to just...
00:23:42
Speaker
You know, say, oh, there's nothing here, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's just a couple of flakes. I don't care. Whatever. You know, I'm not going to write that, but that's what my writing is going to reflect. That's now the story of that three, four, five, six, seven thousand year old site. That's now its story is my my crappy day is is just, you know, that's how that's reflected.
00:24:03
Speaker
try to I try to actively think about that when I'm writing that stuff down even if it's just two flakes even if it's just two cans and if there's I try to write down as much as I can about it and that's what I mean by archaeology is the process that's the process of archaeology but I try to do
00:24:20
Speaker
very little interpretation on my site records. I don't think that's the time or the place. Now, I might try to do a little interpretation if this is a national register significant site. If there's some criteria on the national register for historic places that this applies to, then you kind of have to do a little bit of interpretation. You have to say, well, it's important because this.
00:24:39
Speaker
But if I'm not doing that and we know it's not significant, then I try to leave interpretation out of it and I try to heavily, heavily describe so other people in other contexts can interpret it based on other criteria. Because if you're trying to interpret that site based on just the site alone, you're going to come up with probably a different interpretation than if you take a macro approach and you look at the 50 sites in that area and then put it all together as one big cohesive story.
00:25:06
Speaker
really verging into anthropology, though, and I don't think that's really archaeology. Archaeology is the process of making that happen, the baseline, the foundation, and then you get an anthropology. That's what I mean. What about you, April? Whose side are you on?
00:25:22
Speaker
Let's go on. Whose side are you on? Can I pick the middle? Aw. Centrist. Aw, come on. Can I be a centrist? Yeah, I like that. Spoken like a, spoken like a historic archeologist. I don't know what to tell you about that. Well, I think it's hard because I think part of what this comes onto is it's very hard to separate interpretation out of archeology completely. Because even when you're trying to write these really detailed, careful site records and avoid interpretation,
00:25:47
Speaker
you're still making certain types of interpretations just by what you choose to include because you're kind of deciding what's important and what's not. And that's an interpretation of the site right there. And so I think, but you know, that's one of the challenges in anthropology, in archeology is that we're not an objective science or isn't the same kind of hard and cold cut result that can be easily replicated over and over and over again.
00:26:16
Speaker
It's just not possible for us. And so we're always doing forms of interpretation, even in choosing what tests we're going to run, in choosing the site that we're going to study. It's still interpreting what we think is happening there, even before we start doing archaeology often. And so, you know, I think this is just part of the challenge is that archaeology and anthropology are both separate
00:26:45
Speaker
And you're right, archaeology is partly a process, but we really, it's very hard to separate the two completely, I think. They're very intertwined because we're partly using these anthropological tools and mindsets, but we've augmented them with the processes and methods and thought processes of archaeology.
00:27:07
Speaker
Basically, I'm saying we're better than straight up anthropology here. Thank you. Thank you. I agree with that. I mean, the thing is then, you know, how do we how do we kind of put that in a way that more people kind of feel that you feel the same way about archaeology as we do? You know, obviously for us, I mean, I definitely speak for myself here. Archaeology is very, very important.
00:27:32
Speaker
And but ultimately, in the general scheme of things, people are only really interested, but really old stuff. And the majesty of old stuff, the, you know, the kind of like, oh, that's, that's really interesting. That's ages, that's thousands of years old, or hundreds of years old. Do you think that's when we talk about interpretation, do we think there's almost like a need to kind of include a much more
00:27:58
Speaker
embracing of modern or historical archaeology, what you do. I mean, how does your how does historical archaeology, April, in your eyes, kind of differ from prehistoric archaeology in the way that you present that to the public? Hmm, that's actually a really good question. I think I'm thinking about how we approach it to the public because I work with World War Two stuff. And so we're actually working with community members who lived at the sites we worked at.
00:28:28
Speaker
And part of it is convincing them that their memories, their experiences, and their material objects have great intrinsic value and tell stories. And so I think this comes down to using some of the tools that Chris is talking about, some of the methods of archaeology and showing them how they can apply it or how it can be applied to the modern world and use to reconstruct the past and share the past through interpretation.
00:28:58
Speaker
Um, and so saying, okay, look at your family photo album. You know, this is a material object, an archeological object that tells the story of your family. Um, now let's unpack it. Let's, let's excavate this photo album and think about, you know, who made it? Why did they make it? How did they make it? Um, what are the images that it shows? What did the different images show? What's the story they tell? What places are these objects rooted in?
00:29:28
Speaker
Um, and getting them to start connecting all of these pieces. And so that's really using kind of archeological methods to think about things that matter to us on a daily basis. So our own personal histories. And I think once you start connecting archeology to your personal history, then you can start connecting it to kind of the larger world around you and saying, Oh, the town I live in.
00:29:51
Speaker
may seem really modern, it's not ancient, but there's actually really interesting archaeology to think about how neighborhoods change over time, how it was built, why the house I live in looks like this. Oh, it has six editions and they were, you can tell by looking at how things overlap when they were built and when my house was added onto. And then all of a sudden it becomes really tangible to us.
00:30:14
Speaker
I think April, you hit the nail on the head there, is when you're talking about, especially with you guys, you know, where you work, I mean, you actually have people that, you know, lived in the camp that you're studying, the place where you're at, you know, when they were children, and you can talk to them, those people and their descendants for sure.
Value of Artifacts in Storytelling
00:30:34
Speaker
But that's the thing is you said that their stuff tells a story that's important because you're finding with archaeology you find stuff. And this is the thing I've been hammering on on podcast after podcast lately, and I'm glad it's coming up sort of organically and I didn't have to bring it up, is that the artifacts are not themselves the important things. The artifacts help tell a story and the artifacts help relate that story to the surroundings.
00:31:03
Speaker
And that's why it's important that artifacts are found in place, in association with the other things where they were initially left with, so we can fill in the parts of that story a little better. And that's the important part. And that's why archaeology itself is important in the fact that we need to, since we may never see the site again, in a lot of cases over here in the West,
00:31:27
Speaker
We have to record with as much detail as possible how that artifact was found, where it was found, what it was found in association with, what orientation it was found in sometimes is important, things like that. And people might not think that's important, but let's say you have a prehistoric living surface and you have, say, a projectile point or pottery or something like that.
00:31:50
Speaker
But it's all jumbled around, and it's all vertically, horizontally, and you've got all these places. Well, chances are that isn't a primary orientation for that. Because if it was dropped on a flat, hard-packed living surface, it's going to be pounded in flat, and it's going to stay like that. So something else happened there. Either somebody else came in and dug it up, and then all that stuff happened like that, or rodent activity, or something like that. And you can tell that that's probably not in its primary position from how it was dropped.
00:32:19
Speaker
orientation and all that stuff is really important. And then we use those things to tell the stories. We use those artifacts to tell the stories of who lived there. The artifacts themselves become less important once the story is told, because it's the story that people care about. Tristan, you even said that. People like to hear stories about the past, and we use artifacts to tell those stories, but the artifacts themselves are not the story. They're just a part of the story. That's my thought.
00:32:45
Speaker
No, I completely get that. And I think this is the way in which we have to use archaeology. Well, not use archaeology. It sounds as if there's like the end point beyond archaeology. There's archaeology has to be done through the frame of engaging people and getting them involved. And actually, just another question to you, April, you know,
00:33:09
Speaker
Obviously, the World Second War has a lot of contentious history in it. Do people think, do you find that people react differently to a history that maybe is much more in the common knowledge to a history that may be something that they're surprised to find through the examination of their own information? How have you kind of dealt with more difficult history? Hmm. I think as long as
00:33:39
Speaker
It's done in a way that doesn't directly contradict and negate what they think they know and understand. So I think what throws people off is when you're told you're wrong. Like, so I used, I work in museums and we do a lot of interpretation and tours and talking to people. And one of the things is the minute you tell a visitor or you tell someone in a museum that they are wrong, their understanding of the world is not the correct understanding. They shut down, right?
00:34:07
Speaker
I'm not going to listen to you. You're a stranger telling me that my understanding of this world is not correct. Forget it. I'm done. Um, and so you have to come up with ways of saying, okay, your understanding is valid and has merit. However, here's how this alternative history fits into things.
00:34:26
Speaker
Um, okay, that's my cat. Um, and so you have to, you have to make it work in a weird way where you're not directly telling them, but you're fitting it in, you're kind of working at the edges. And I think this is something archeology is really good at because we can show people material things, right? So for us, the stories are sort of embedded in these objects. And when you can hold an object, when you can walk through an internment camp,
00:34:55
Speaker
It's really hard to deny that that part of history happened because it's a physical, tangible thing. It's there. You've now touched it. You've seen it. It's part of your tangible experience that you've gone through just by walking through, just by seeing archeology. And I think that's part of why when you go to other countries, when Americans travel to Europe or Italy or anywhere, we are traveling
00:35:23
Speaker
to experience someone else's past and culture. And so maybe this gets to the Italy thing too, for you Tristan is, you know, you went there to experience their culture. And so it, it was everywhere for you. Different, but the places that we live in, we live in every day. And so it's a lot harder to kind of step back and say, Oh yeah. Okay.
00:35:48
Speaker
This has the same thing. It's part of my daily experiences. But to other people, this is unique. This is the American cultural experience. Oh, this is American history. Don't know if that actually answered your question or just navigated really carefully. Tristan, you're kind of living through some history, too, as far as recent events are concerned. Because how long has the UK been in the European Union?
00:36:16
Speaker
as you guys exit the European Union? Is there anything around you physically that's a direct result? Like the building or something wouldn't be there if it weren't because of the European Union? And now you can attribute that to that phase of the history. Well, you only have to look at actually like Scotland in particular and where I grew up in Northern Ireland.
00:36:38
Speaker
both places received a lot of EU funding. And actually, especially in Belfast, in particular, there are several buildings there that were specifically built with EU money, like majority 89% built with EU funding. Those buildings are there because of the EU. And it's kind of almost funny that in some ways, some of the areas
00:37:07
Speaker
especially in England, that actually received the most EU funding to account for their lack of support from the British government and from a lot of other things. They're the ones who actually voted the highest to leave because it was never explained to people. I think what we're going to see after Brexit, unfortunately, is we're going to have a lack of funding for research, which will have a knock on effect in the ability for us to actually study our past.
00:37:36
Speaker
And we're going to also see buildings that are listed buildings kind of like they're not going to have the same support as they do now. And that's going to be a real shame because the building and monumental architecture of archaeological history in Britain is very important and it's also very old.
00:37:56
Speaker
Nice. Okay, well, we're going to take one more break and then we're going to come back and wrap up this topic with this rambling sort of, I'm not sure what we're even talking about anymore topic. We're going to try to coalesce this into one coherent thought right after the break. That might be a tall order. Back in a minute. All these things we make no apology for the study of archaeology.
00:38:28
Speaker
Did aliens build Stonehenge? Did the Easter Island statues walk? Did the Vikings colonize Midwest America? What does mainstream archaeology have to say about all of this? Listen to the Archaeological Fantasies podcast and learn about popular archaeological mysteries. Hoax or fact? Learn to tell the difference with Dr. Kenneth Fader and co-host Sarah of the Archaeophantasies blog.
00:38:49
Speaker
Check out the show on iTunes and Stitcher Radio and at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com and get ready to think critically. Let's get back to the show.
00:39:10
Speaker
All right, we're back. So, Tristan, I'm going to throw this back to you because we started talking about how archaeology is all around us and we need to be more observant. I think
00:39:24
Speaker
I think one of the things that we ended up talking about, as far as the differences between archaeology and anthropology and things like that, kind of leads to some big questions and some fundamental misunderstandings, I think, of both of those that I'm seeing online.
Storytelling as a Tool for Public Engagement
00:39:39
Speaker
One of the people that I know that I'm friends with on Facebook, who always puts up interesting questions and philosophical questions and musings and things like that, and he said basically, I think yesterday, the day before, how can
00:39:53
Speaker
How can we talk to non-archaeologists and make archaeology seem important? And that seemed like a really weird question to me because, like I said, I do see archaeology as a process and I see that it's important to do that, but that's not what we should emphasize to the public, I think. I think we should emphasize the telling of stories to the public and one of those methods
00:40:14
Speaker
is archaeology because in like April's case, they're using multiple methods to tell the story of Amache. They're using archaeology to tell stories or clear up stories in some cases, you know, when you find out the real story behind something. But they're also using user accounts and interviews and, you know, historical photos and journals and things like that. Multiple lines of evidence to tell that story where it gets weird with archaeology sometimes
00:40:43
Speaker
pure like pre-historic archaeology or ancient archaeology is that we don't often have those other lines of evidence. The only line of evidence we have is what's buried under the ground. So we kind of forget that those other lines of evidence exist. And if we could interview somebody that was on that site, if we could interview or read somebody's journal that we pulled out of the ground or something for that site,
00:41:05
Speaker
Then we would use that as a line of evidence to just tell that story. But it really just comes down to the telling of the stories. And that's what we need to impress upon people when they're talking about dismantling heritage laws and things like that. These weird laws that make it so if you want to put a building up in your backyard.
00:41:21
Speaker
are really there so we can preserve and tell stories. Not so the government can make more money off selling you a permit and then can give me a job. I mean, that's not why those exist. They exist and people fought really hard back in the 60s and 70s and even before them with like the Antiquities Law and stuff like that in 1906.
00:41:38
Speaker
to get these in there so we can tell these stories. I mean, every archaeologist would tell you, we're not in this to make any money, and we don't make any money. It's not a wealthy business, so that can't even be part of it. Big archaeology is not something anyone has ever said. Tristan, where do you think that leaves us with observing the world around you and how you would picture it with that, I guess, information in your head?
00:42:05
Speaker
I think we need to basically get the archaeology goggles out. And what I mean by the archaeology goggles is we have to really
00:42:15
Speaker
begin to show how archaeology differs from the general perception of it. You know, the general perception of archaeology is a certain way. Let's face it, archaeology is defined as this wonderful treasure hunting exercise committed like done by these really smart buffing heads. Wonderful, interesting people who spend all their time in offices and don't come out unless they're in the field.
00:42:41
Speaker
You know, we need something more. We need relatable human people describing the past in relatable ways. And that needs to be the ultimate narrative.
00:42:52
Speaker
That's why we have to break into media spaces. That's why we have to break into film spaces. That's why we have to break into the spaces that everybody knows about. Unless we actually actively engage with the public as a whole, we're always going to be tripped up by needing to justify ourselves. And I think that when we need to justify ourselves, it makes it more and more dangerous for a past that we need to protect.
00:43:19
Speaker
So I think twofold, we can show how amazing and interesting everybody's past is in of itself. I think there's a lot of people who kind of think, well, no, I just came from a normal family, normal, normal, normal, you know, there's nothing interesting. But ultimately, the way in which we think about the past is can make the mundane interesting, you know, I mean, for consider the question,
00:43:48
Speaker
Who is the first person to brush their teeth? How did brushing teeth evolve? Why do we brush our teeth nowadays? And more interestingly, if we consider toothwear analysis as a form of identification, will future archaeologists have a problem with looking at people's teeth and dental records because we now brush our teeth quite regularly?
00:44:10
Speaker
you know, these are small little ideas that can spawn further ideas. And that's what we need to really inject. We need to inject an energy and a kind of an approach. And I think that anybody listening who's not an archaeologist, who hopefully will now consider that archaeology is not just about
00:44:30
Speaker
digging up wonderful old gold statues will try and entertain their their own history, their their family's history and their the history that's existed around them. Perhaps there is no information about your great grandparents. Maybe you have to look for it. But that doesn't mean there's nothing interesting there. There's always something to find out. And
00:44:55
Speaker
The closer to home that is, the more interesting that is. And when you have those skills applied to who you are as a person, you begin to understand what archaeologists do when they apply their skills to unknown things. I think that's kind of the angle we want to come from. Right. I think that's a great angle. But I think part of it is we have to train archaeologists as a it's a lot to be storytelling.
00:45:25
Speaker
not all very good storytellers. We're really good at analyzing and talking about the detail in minutia often, but it's then connecting that one lithic, that lithic scatter into a larger story that makes it something interesting so that people can't say, well, why does this one thing matter? Who cares if we bulldoze that lithic scatter?
00:45:52
Speaker
tell stories with these tiny sites or explain why even, you know, a single thing, you know, as Chris was saying, how did this projectile point get here? Tell the story of the people. And I think a lot of archaeologists are moving that way and starting to think creatively and write some of their, write some more popular books where they are. They're turning archaeology into stories and not big eye-catching stories like, you know, oh, we're digging up Richard III.
00:46:20
Speaker
Um, we'll finally solve this mystery, which I think capture the public imagination. Cause there's stories that we want answers to. Right. So there are these historical stories that everybody knows and we're looking for a conclusion and we want the next chapter in that book and archeology can sometimes provide that, but to explain how it's always stories, always answering and telling these tiny stories. And I think it's not very good at telling stories in an interesting manner.
00:46:47
Speaker
in a manner that connects to the general problem. This is what I thought about. Yeah. And that's, man, that's so interesting too. Because I think, I was just thinking of Brian Fagan's book before California. And I think he writes a lot of his books this way.
00:47:06
Speaker
Archaeologist and I think anthropologist he teaches one of the California universities and But he starts each chapter when his books in his book Before California and I'm sure some of the others but I haven't I'm not as familiar with those but he starts it with a story of that time period in that place that he's talking about because his book is broken up into time periods and regional locations, so
00:47:30
Speaker
But he'll start with a story of, you know, somebody hunting or somebody, you know, doing something in a village or something like that. And it's related to the sites that he's about to talk about and the things like that. And I think that's perfect. He doesn't tell the story last. He doesn't tell the story in the middle. He starts with the story and then the rest of the chapter explains where that information came from to tell that story. And sure, it's an embellishment a little bit because it is a story and he's making it up, but based on evidence.
00:48:01
Speaker
But I like that, and I wish we did more of it. I'm sending a site report to the BLM here in Nevada today, and I'll tell you what, there's no room for embellishment, not embellishment, that's the wrong word, but there's no room for
00:48:16
Speaker
I guess, serious real storytelling to say, hey, this is this is what based on what I saw based on the research that I did. Here's here's a narrative that I'm going to give you right now. And I think probably one of the reasons for that is that some people would would write that and other people's other people would read it and say and then they would just read that and say, OK, so this is what went on out here. This isn't just an interpretation of the data. This is a fact. And that's how they're going to see that. But it really is just an interpretation of the data. There's no way we can determine
00:48:46
Speaker
facts when it comes to the prehistory in the past, ultimately because we weren't there and we don't know how these things were used. Just because I see a spoon sitting there in a privy doesn't mean that the last thing that spoon was used for was soup. It could have been used to gouge somebody's eye out.
00:49:06
Speaker
no idea. I mean, why is it in a privy? Because they were disposing of the evidence, that's why. That's my interpretation. But somebody else may see that completely differently. And I'm sure April, I mean, geez, some of the artifacts, especially at Amache where you guys are, especially since
00:49:26
Speaker
what you're finding is after people left, you know, and they probably, you know, when they left there, they probably didn't want to hang around, you know, they got the heck out of there. And it's like, I've seen a house after I've left it, you know, when we move and you have to spend two days cleaning, you know, and you're throwing stuff away and you're doing these things. And, and I know living today is different than living in the forties, but, um, you know, it's, uh, you're trying to interpret what happened there while people live there based on,
00:49:55
Speaker
you know, what was left after just a brief period of time of things being used and probably tossed around and, you know, different stuff. And that's that's one thing you have to take into account, I guess, when you're telling that story. Yeah, definitely. Actually, I saw you start out being really interested in the archaeology of children. And I find every time I hike, I will be in the middle of nowhere, find a children's toy. There's a marble somewhere out in the desert every time I hike.
00:50:24
Speaker
And it gets you thinking, I'm, I've just hiked 10 miles. Why is there a marble here? What kid was out here? What is the story of this marble? How did it get here? Um, and kind of thinking through those processes, how did, how did objects end up? And I think that's, yeah, coming up with those stories and it's easy. I think this is part of why using people's own history is nice because it's easy to create stories.
00:50:53
Speaker
about people you kind of knew, like you can create a story about your grandma because you sort of knew her and you knew how she'd respond to situations or you've heard stories about her. And so your own past is very easy to populate kind of imagery and knowledge.
00:51:11
Speaker
You know, to bring this back around to you Tristan and observing the archaeology around you, I think you should start the Brexit archaeology podcast and go out and make each episode about some sort of building or built environment that is Brexit related. I think for me, you know, we have this constant kind of pressure Brexit, but
00:51:38
Speaker
At the end of the day, you know, this is a process that's ongoing. I'm sure the history books will have more than enough to write about it in hindsight. But I think, you know what, I'm going to talk about the interesting history if I'm going to talk about any of it. And to be honest with you, before Brexit actually physically really does happen. I'm going to live in the dream land that maybe, maybe someone's going to mess it up and miss a deadline.
00:52:05
Speaker
And it won't happen or something like that. This can still happen. But no, I think I don't want to place undue importance on something that is, yes, it's going to affect a lot of things. But ultimately, archaeology and history of Britain is not just its connection to the EU. The connection to the EU is less than 100 years old. And there's been so many other things that happened in the UK before that.
00:52:36
Speaker
I think, you know, the kind of ideas that maybe political lines mean something don't really mean anything. I mean, look at America, look at the differences between states. I'm sure that if you look deep enough into the past, state lines don't really mean anything. You know, you have groups of people living basically across state lines. So in the same way, archaeology in here in the Middle West has some sort of it doesn't really
00:53:06
Speaker
follow the lines that already exist. I just hope that we are able to, with all the cuts of austerity, to really still be able to keep up with the demands of our history. And that means looking after our places, our people, and our records. And that's really important.
00:53:28
Speaker
Um, we'll see how that goes. We'll see how that goes. Maybe that links in really well with this idea of history and archeology all around us where when people start seeing the archeology of the places that they live in, then all of a sudden they're vested in preserving it.
Community Involvement in Local Archaeology
00:53:47
Speaker
Even if there isn't giant pots of funding or, you know, instead of raising that house and building something new, they start to see it as something of value.
00:53:56
Speaker
and they want to preserve it. They want to keep the cobblestones instead of putting down new tarmac because it is part of the archeology of that town. Yeah, I think it's helpful to look at all that stuff as though to look at all the things around you and not look at it as it's somebody else's thing. It's somebody else's, not my problem, not my deal, but look at it for what it is as historical because we tend to
00:54:21
Speaker
We tend to focus on our own stuff pretty heavily. And we are interested in those stories, but we just need to realize that maybe somebody's not telling all those other stories and we need to look around us and find those. Because like, for example, you know, April, you know that your
00:54:36
Speaker
your brand new babies are not gonna be able to tell their own story of this time in their life because they're just trying to figure out how to think and be humans right now. So you've probably taken a thousand photographs already or you and a whole bunch of other people have already taken all these photographs so you can help
00:54:54
Speaker
tell that story for them when they're old enough to understand it and and then, you know, embarrass them when you show them pictures of them in the kitchen sink. That seems to be like a requirement of moms to do. I'm not really sure why. But anyway, so, yeah, I mean, I think just I think just looking around and and trying to trying to see what other stories are out there is is the is the fun and exciting part. Tristan, were you going to say something? No, no, no, I was just agreeing. I think it's quite amazing what what what lengths mothers will do to embarrass their
00:55:25
Speaker
My grandma has like my brother myself and like two of my cousins in the same bathtub Covering themselves when they're like three or four years old all of us with toys in the bathtub And those pictures are on the wall in her bathroom like I'm like why seriously seriously
00:55:54
Speaker
Anyway, so yeah, that's about it for this show. I would say take a look. I'm glad Tristan and I talked about this and then we decided to put it on the show so the three of us could have a conversation about it because you know, it's really important especially in today's society in the United States where heritage laws are constantly under fire and people have to realize that the people that want these laws taken away are not looking at it from really a historical standpoint. They're looking at it from a financial standpoint. They're saying
00:56:13
Speaker
Why is that there? What story is that telling aside from my first embarrassment?
00:56:24
Speaker
That law or that regulation, that heritage regulation, whether it's NEPA or NHPA or whatever it is, is costing my pipeline an additional $500 million. That's true. That's true. But that's what it costs to preserve and tell those stories forever. Because once your pipeline goes in, it's gone. Those stories can't be told anymore.
00:56:49
Speaker
That's my final thought on that and that's what I'll leave everybody with. So feel free to disagree or agree with us and comment wherever you saw this and let us know how it went. Thanks a lot, April and Tristan. Thanks.
00:57:12
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Archaeology Podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. You can provide feedback using the contact button on the right side of the website at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com forward slash archaeology. Or you can email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Please like and share the show wherever you saw it so more people can have a chance to listen and learn. Send us show suggestions and follow ArcPodNet on Twitter and Instagram.
00:57:36
Speaker
This show was produced by the Archeology Podcast Network. Opinions are solely those of the hosts and guests of the show. However, the APN stands by their hosts. Special thanks to the band C Hero for letting us use their song, I Wish You'd Look. Check out their albums on Bandcamp at chero.bandcamp.com. Check out our next episode in two weeks. And in the meantime, keep learning, keep discovering new things and keep listening to the Archeology Podcast Network. Have an awesome day.
00:58:18
Speaker
The show is produced by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.
00:58:40
Speaker
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