Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Oriental Medicine: Oleg Fabrikant
36 Plays3 years ago
Season 2, Episode 7: Dr. Oleg Fabrikant is an oriental medicine physician with Weill Cornell Medicine in New York City. Listen to Oleg discuss acupuncture, herbal medicine and the holistic nature of disease.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to The Wound Dresser Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to The Wound Dresser, a podcast that uncovers the human side of healthcare. I'm your host, Jon Neary. My guest today is Dr.
Dr. Oleg Fabrikat's Background
00:00:23
Speaker
Oleg Fabrikat. Dr. Fabrikat is an acupuncturist and Oriental medicine physician with Wild Cornell Medicine in New York City. In 2001, he graduated from Pacific College of Oriental Medicine
00:00:36
Speaker
and completed a fellowship with the Department of Integrative Medicine at Mount Sinai Beth Israel Medical Center. Oleg, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me John.
Concept of Yin, Yang, and Qi
00:00:48
Speaker
So Oriental medicine and acupuncture have been widely used in Asia for thousands of years. In the context of these Asian practices, what is health? Well, health is the homeostasis, is the balance of yin and yang.
00:01:05
Speaker
There is a notion in Chinese medicine that is when the Qi, the vital energy flows smoothly through the meridians, then the health to follow and then the human being and the human body and the human mind will be at peace and there will be no room for disease. How does the approach to disease differ between Eastern and Western medicine in your experience?
00:01:33
Speaker
The main difference I would say is that nothing exists in isolation. The disease always has its roots and the deeper foundation lays in understanding what's causing the disease and what led to that. And this concept of Oriental medicine includes many different facets and acupuncture is only a small part of it and it's not actually listed at the very top.
00:02:01
Speaker
The premise of this lifestyle, I would say, is to maintain the health, or is to prevent the disease and not wait till you have to start treating a patient over the symptoms arise.
Eastern vs. Western Medicine Approaches
00:02:16
Speaker
Therefore, there's a great emphasis on what's the first, probably the first postulate would be the meditation. What it means by meditation is the state of mind, being at ease, being able to process,
00:02:29
Speaker
the information, the surrounding in a way that would not allow you to succumb to stress, anxiety. It's easy as said, but done, of course, but this is the ideal situation.
00:02:43
Speaker
we believe that if the mind is at ease and the nutritional component would follow, meaning that maintaining a healthy lifestyle includes eating healthy, the choices that we make play a great role. And remember, we're talking about thousands of years of experience and how this medicine came about is
00:03:07
Speaker
that we don't exist separately from nature, therefore humans are part of the bigger whole and then we are what we eat and what we consume and how we behave, what the decisions that we make.
Importance of Lifestyle in Health
00:03:23
Speaker
Therefore, in addition to a state of mind, a meditative state of mind, so to speak,
00:03:28
Speaker
we need to make sure that we exercise and their great great emphasis was placed on practicing certain arts as tai chi and qigong some of it became martial arts and but the concept the foundation lays within these practices
00:03:49
Speaker
And of course, the air that we breathe, the water that we drink need to be efficient enough to sustain our energy. And the premise of this medicine is if the vital energy, what we call chi, flows freely through the meridians, there will be no room for disease to occur.
Acupuncture Explained
00:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, you mentioned Qi and meridians. Can you explain more about when you're talking with patients, how do you explain the practice of acupuncture and the mechanisms of action that make it an effective treatment? Well, there's this premise that acupuncture utilizes its energy system within our body that follows this pathways that we call meridians.
00:04:35
Speaker
And let's step back for a second and look at neridians from the modern lands. What is neridian? There's not something that we can palpate or see, although we have charts of it. But if you think about it from the perspective of modern anatomy, it encompasses a lot of
00:04:56
Speaker
things such as fascia, muscular component, branches of the nerves, blood vessels. It's all part of something that carries a substance, whether it's electricity through the nerve conductivity, whether it's blood flowing through our veins.
00:05:13
Speaker
This is the part of this life force, what the ancient called chi. So the practice of acupuncture is that we utilize this pathways with these meridians. And there are multiple points along these meridians. There's a certain key like a log. When you insert the needle, you insert the key. And you unlock this free flow of energy. There will be no blockages, and this force will
00:05:42
Speaker
flow smoothly. So the acupuncture treatment really consists of a gentle insertion and stimulation of small tiny needles at strategic points along this meridian pathways. Each of these points essentially provides specific function in regulating this free flow of energy.
00:06:01
Speaker
or blood, if you would, or electromagnetic signal. So when we activate an electromagnetic signal, say we're using a point distantly on your foot, that signal travels through this pathway, whether it's a nerve conductivity, whatever you want to call it. It could be a meridian. Back then, they used very simple terminology.
00:06:26
Speaker
And there's a chain reaction that occurs in nerves and musculoskeletal system and subsequently leads to activating of the hormones and down reaction to the internal organs. So this is the nutshell of how acupuncture works.
Scientific Validation of Acupuncture
00:06:44
Speaker
Do you feel like, a couple of follow up questions that, do you feel like, you know, modern science can kind of adequately explain acupuncture or is there sort of something like lost in translation when you try and like put it in, in sort of scientific terms? And my second question is you feel like a lot of the efficacy of the practice depends on, you know, patients buying into and believing that, that it will work and it will help to counteract their disease.
00:07:11
Speaker
Well, two things. First of all, that modern science made great progress in explaining some of the phenomena that we as acupuncturists have been learning for thousands of years.
00:07:27
Speaker
And with modern technology, that becomes easier. For example, researchers have proposed several processes to explain effects of acupuncture. So the conduction of electromagnetic signal is one of them. Subsequently, stimulation of hypothalamus and pituitary gland, the change in secretion of neurotransmitters and neural hormones,
00:07:49
Speaker
And the most important thing, for example, in treating pain is the activation of what is natural opioid system, right? So this endogenous opioid is the endorphins that we're able to stimulate by inserting a needle.
00:08:05
Speaker
For example, using today's diagnostic technologies like functional MRI or PET scan, the scientists were able to actually see that acupuncture promotes the blood flow to a certain area, stimulates the tissue healing, it facilitates release of analgesics.
00:08:22
Speaker
So it reduces the intensity and perception of pain, relaxes the muscles, reduces stress. We can actually see that on images. There's a thermal image that a great indicator of that when what happens with the insertion of needle, there's a part of the brain lights up.
00:08:42
Speaker
And they can actually see that on the image. And you can pinpoint which part of the brain that corresponds to a particular function. The other thing that's been also studied lately and more in depth is the electric stimulation of an acupuncture point of a different frequency and how that changes the course of treatment.
00:09:05
Speaker
So there's more and more studies that are coming out all over the world, and I'm happy that the United States is really catching up with that. There's definitely a lot more body of research that is coming out. To answer your second question, whether the patient believes in it and it somehow enhances the healing, is that, am I understanding your question correctly? Yes.
00:09:32
Speaker
So there was this notion of placebo, I guess, that's where we're going with this, right? So placebo is perceived as something separate from the treatment itself. It's actually part of any treatment. However, most of the studies are done on animals, right? Whether they're lab rats or other larger animals.
00:09:54
Speaker
and they all support the same findings. So it's very hard to just say that placebo is what's causing it all.
Holistic Treatment with Acupuncture
00:10:03
Speaker
As a matter of fact, a lot of the animal clinics right now and the veterinarians practice acupuncture.
00:10:09
Speaker
and becoming very, very popular. The largest and very successful thoroughbred horsing community, they have a team of acupuncturists that actually travels with horses and treat them both for performance and rehabilitation. So to put the skeptics out there where the placebo is playing a major role, there are a lot more studies there on animals that basically support the same theory.
00:10:40
Speaker
Acupuncture is frequently indicated for all sorts of conditions from depression to diabetes to back pain to gynecological issues. I was checking out your website last night and it seems amazing how many different things you can use acupuncture to treat. Why do you think it's such a versatile treatment and is there ever a circumstance where you feel it's like contraindicated to use acupuncture?
00:11:06
Speaker
The reason it's so versatile is going back to the beginning of the conversation is we don't see a disease in isolation. There's always, it exists within a larger microcosm and that is human body. We always look at the cause of it, right? And the cause of it lies somewhere within individual.
00:11:27
Speaker
And we always find the way to treat an individual rather than treating a disease or symptom. So there are many different treatments available to treat one condition, very similar. For example, we'll take headache.
00:11:43
Speaker
There are many different reasons for headache, right? So therefore there will be either the same treatment from the acupuncture perspective or will be a different treatment for headache. We have a hundred different ways to treat headaches. So I hope I'm answering that correctly in terms of understanding your questions. So there's different ways to treat the same disease and the key for that is treating an individual and not the symptom.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, I guess what you're saying, right, is that like, as much as say, like, you know, Western medicine likes to kind of split the body up into different spheres, and, you know, kind of have individual diagnoses for issues in each of those spheres.
00:12:28
Speaker
you know, Eastern medicine, we kind of see some commonality between disease. I guess, can you can you elaborate more on, you know, what, like, why diseases are common throughout different conditions? Like, what, what is actually happening on, you know, on the, I guess, scientific level, or however you perceive it, when you're in when you're practicing, like, what is common about disease amongst all these different conditions?
00:12:56
Speaker
Well, the commonality is underlining cause. Again, we're making the choices early. Of course, genetics play the role, but throughout our life, we make the choices of the lifestyle that we live in. And some of these choices result in certain conditions. For example, a very simple, we'll talk about pain.
00:13:17
Speaker
Since this is, you know, the main issue why people coming into us in the beginning, not anymore, of course, they know that acupuncture is versatile, it can treat many other things, but let's say we see very commonly in New York what we call the gym rats, right? The people would go to the gym seven days a week,
00:13:37
Speaker
beat themselves up, go through this rigorous training, and then come back with all sorts of aches and pains, right? And they would say, okay, I've had multiple surgeries done on my knees, I've had strains and sprains, and they take pride in how hard they work,
00:13:58
Speaker
and how many injuries they have, to the extent that we have to step back and say, but the reason you're here is because of the lifestyle you chose. The pain you're coming in with is the result of this overdoing. The other example, I would say, the stress is one of the major contributing factors to IBS.
00:14:17
Speaker
When people come with IBS symptoms, we would always take back and talk about the history of what caused it. And mostly the underlying cause was emotional. A lot of the symptoms that we can trace back to the amount of stress this person being under or by choice over working or any of these circumstances living in the big city.
00:14:42
Speaker
And New York is a good example of that. We see a very particular pattern in New Yorkers, very driven, very hardworking, very ambitious, but there's a price to pay for that lifestyle. So there's always a reason why something happens.
00:15:01
Speaker
How do you kind of work with that New York mentality that you just mentioned, right? Like people, like you said, the gym rat, somebody who really pushes themselves physically or somebody who's really stressed out, they might not even realize that pattern has kind of taken over their life and leading to disease. How do you kind of like show somebody a mirror and help them realize that maybe some of the patterns they viewed as positive are actually contributing negatively to their health?
00:15:32
Speaker
It takes time. It takes some of the trust, the building trust with the patient when they really understand what you're telling them. And you need to produce a result first. You need to show them that acupuncture can actually treat their pain, for example. And it takes your treatments when they finally realize, yes, I see the difference. Now they will listen to you. And slowly we start peeling these layers of the onion, trying to get to the bottom of it.
00:15:58
Speaker
And when the person starts realizing how much of their own doing, they start to understand. And we always try to educate from taking a little bit more time for themselves and resting and relaxing and find this way to get the stress out of their system, not necessarily by going to the gym and running, which makes many people happy.
00:16:26
Speaker
Again, for endorphin production, right? So we all know about this runner's high, but they don't know that acupuncture can actually produce very similar results.
00:16:34
Speaker
because we can also produce the endogenous opioids and produce this endorphin. So then they start to trust you and they start to understand and it takes time, but also there are some people who don't really want to change. And at that point, you have to step back and say, look, I'm here to help, but I also want to see the results. We cannot go in circles. I'm treating you, you're feeling better. You're going back, you're hurting yourself and you're back again.
Dry Needling vs. Acupuncture
00:17:04
Speaker
Well, more technical question about acupuncture. So as I understand, there's another sort of similar practice called dry needling that is emerging among physical therapists and other health care professionals. Can you kind of compare dry needling and acupuncture? Are they similar? Are they different? And kind of what is the difference in their approach?
00:17:27
Speaker
Well, it's an interesting point because dry needling essentially is acupuncture. It's more of a legal point at this time. And the reason for that is this. This is the way that some of the profession trying to circumvent the requirement of actually being trained in acupuncture. As a matter of fact, in New York state, we are as a profession of acupuncture had defeated multiple bills to allow
00:17:54
Speaker
physicians who are not physicians or any other practitioner who has been trained in acupuncture to be allowed to practice dry needling and there are many reasons for that, major reason is the safety.
00:18:06
Speaker
So essentially, dry needling is needling trigger points, mostly with hypodermic needle. As acupuncturists, we use filiform, a solid needle, which is much thinner. And some of the points that are used for dry needle is essentially the trigger points. So it's just not an issue of whether it's acupuncture or not, it is. Once you insert a needle in an acupuncture point, it is acupuncture. The question is,
00:18:35
Speaker
whether the practitioner is trained, whether they use the proper technique, and it all comes down to a legal term. And in New York, it is not legal to do joint needling for anyone except, I believe, for a licensed physician. Want to turn to some other aspects of
Herbal Medicine Fundamentals
00:18:56
Speaker
Oriental medicine. I know you incorporate herbs into your practice. Can you describe, to our listeners, situations where you've turned to herbal medicine?
00:19:06
Speaker
Herbal medicine is a major part of the system of this philosophy and the major difference between the herbal medicine and let's say the allopathic approach to treatment is that
00:19:21
Speaker
We're using a combination of herbs. Rarely do we use a single herb for treatment. And there's a very important distinction. The way the formula of Chinese herbal medicine is combined, this is a very eloquent
00:19:39
Speaker
mutual support of ingredients. There's a key, a main ingredient. There are ingredients that guide that herb into the area that we want it to go. There are other groups of herbs within the same formula that counteract some of the
00:20:00
Speaker
maybe side effects of particular herbs to make it very, I would say, safe in the sense that if we have multiple herbs in each one supplementing the action or controlling the action of the other
00:20:15
Speaker
It's a very, very safe way to do it. And we use it a lot for internal conditions, digestive issues, and ecological problems. So, herbal medicine is an art. It's not a simple prescription of a single herb.
00:20:34
Speaker
And I want to make that very clear that finding a licensed or at least trained herbalist is very, very important because there's a lot of supplements out there and people self-prescribe by having a good experienced practitioner prescribing is very beneficial. So the major difference would be that we are not use single ingredient. We use a combination of ingredients.
00:21:02
Speaker
We use it for treatment of internal conditions. So that's a major part of the practice in general for people who do practice oriental medicine is including herbs. What do you officially classify as an herb? Is it anything that is grown? Is there, you know, is it basically any, there's no real man.
00:21:23
Speaker
made, you know, meddling with the ingredients. Will you consider an herb and then once you get into the realm of supplements, as you're saying, what suddenly becomes not an herb?
00:21:34
Speaker
Well, herbs are also, when we're talking about herbal medicine, we're also incorporating the minerals and some of the animal products. So it's not just the herb or the branch or the root or the leaf of the tree or the bush. So there's a broader concept of this. So, but you are correct, there is nothing manmade in this medicine. So we don't isolate one active ingredients as it's done in pharmaceuticals.
00:22:02
Speaker
although a lot of the pharmaceutical news are derived from botanical sources, right? So we know that a lot of the medicine came from herbs, but this is more of a modern invention, isolating one active ingredient and trying to make that work. And this is more or less, as I said,
00:22:23
Speaker
a very eloquent way to address the ailments by supporting multiple functions of the body, supporting an individual. And mostly, we prescribe individual formulas. That means we base some of the classic formulas, and we add ingredients based on the presentation, based on the patient's constitution. And we try to prescribe it that way. So I hope it answers your question.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, what are some common herbs you use and what conditions do you use them to treat? It's not a question of a common herb. They're formless, as I said, they're a combination of herbs. The use of herbal medicine is limitless. You can use it for anything. But the key to prescribing herbs and practicing oriental medicine in general is identifying
00:23:21
Speaker
the underlying cause of it and trying to find the most direct, the most specific formula you can find. There's an art to it. This is why this medicine is so individualism holistic. We based it on the person, whereas allopathic or homeopathic is basing it on, you know, treating a one individual symptom, whereas this is more holistic.
Tai Chi and Qi Gong Benefits
00:23:46
Speaker
Can you expand more on some of the movement healing practices that you mentioned? I think you talked about Tai Chi. How do you typically bring those into your Oriental medicine practice? And are those typically in group settings? Is that something you do one on one or kind of prescribed for people to do at home?
00:24:08
Speaker
Well, before COVID, our center is offering actual classes in person. We have a wonderful instructor who was also a physical therapist. He is at New York Presbyterian. We had Tai Chi and Qi Gong classes. And right now, obviously, it's been put on hold. But in the meantime, I've encouraged all the patients to use YouTube and practice individually at home.
00:24:35
Speaker
Uh, group setting is probably the most, um, preferable in is because it's energetic medicine. When you're in group of people all practicing this energy, uh, building, um, movement, there's something about it within.
00:24:53
Speaker
Something happens when many people doing very similar energetic work. You get more energized. You get more inspired. There is something happens. Of course, there's not to say you cannot practice it on your own. There's very, very different feel to it when you practice in the group. So ideally, I would prefer people to do it in the groups. But we show, demonstrate some of the basic moves, particularly the Qigong. Something doesn't require a lot of space.
00:25:22
Speaker
We can demonstrate it in session. We can refer to certain instructors, whether it's in person or online. But what I want to bring up to compare this type of movement, Tai Chi and Qigong, let's say working out in the gym. And there's not to say that there's no room for people to obviously working out in the gym, but there are two different ways of building energy. And we're talking about
00:25:47
Speaker
When you're in the gym lifting weight and you're tired, you do it after work, you're actually giving off energy. You become more tired, essentially. Whereas when you're gathering energy with tai chi and qigong that makes you more alert, that makes you re-energized, revitalized, and I would prefer that people combine both.
00:26:09
Speaker
There's always room for strong exercises with weights and all this high intensity classes, but there's got to be a balance like anything else in this medicine. It's all about the balance, it's homeostasis. You got to do some practices that also relax you and give you more energy. What is the distinction between Tai Chi and Ji Gong? Are they very similar practices?
00:26:36
Speaker
They are similar in the sense that they're both energetic practices. Tai Chi is more of a slow martial art movement. If you ever looked at the practice of Tai Chi, it resembles somewhat of a kung fu style movement, but if you speed it up, this is basically what you will see. It's kind of a martial art style movement, but it's done at a very, very low speed. It engages all your muscles and it doesn't
00:27:06
Speaker
It appears very simple, but it actually gives you a nice workout in a different sense. Qigong is more of a breathing incorporating exercise, maybe with a little bit of less movement. There is some, but it's more of a statically
00:27:23
Speaker
gathering energy with some movements, but mostly breathing, and that's very important. Ideally, I would like patients to practice both if they can, but there are certain medical qigong practices that address particular illness, for example asthma. They're great exercises for lung expansion and creating more capacity.
00:27:45
Speaker
There are good exercises for liver conditions, so they're a little bit more medically geared, and whereas tai chi, it is both good for your mental state, it is good for muscle building, it is good for flexibility. So they're slightly different, but they're both energetic exercises. How would you compare yoga to those practices as well? Do you see patients, you know,
00:28:14
Speaker
doing all three, just kind of picking one of the three. How do you kind of decide more about how you want to pick a movement practice?
00:28:24
Speaker
I think yoga is great when it's done in the right setting and with the right instructor. Yoga is wonderful. I rarely see people practice equally yoga, tai chi or qigong because yoga is probably more popular because it is more commercialized and it's readily available in the gyms and the studios, whereas tai chi and qigong is not so much available. It's more of a
00:28:49
Speaker
In traditional practice of certain cultures, you could see that in certain enclaves of New York City, where people gather together in the parks, by the water banks, and they do these exercises together.
00:29:05
Speaker
So I don't think that I've seen someone who's practicing equally, but I would probably say yoga is more predominant, at least in New York and I would say in the United States. But I want to encourage people to discover Qigang and Tai Chi for themselves and give it a try.
Integrative Medicine Approaches
00:29:25
Speaker
I want to talk about briefly more this idea of integrative care. I'm sure a lot of the patients you encounter have previously or are currently, you know, seeking out the services of, you know, traditional allopathic care. So do you feel like at times those can ever come in conflict where, you know, acupuncture and where your oriental medicine can sort of be in conflict with Western treatments that a patient is using?
00:29:52
Speaker
It is rarely in conflict. It's always incorporated. And I'll give you a good example, for example, for oncology patients. Somebody's undergoing chemotherapy where there are in myriads of different drugs and drugs that counteract nausea.
00:30:11
Speaker
these cocktails that are coming in. And unfortunately, there's really not much it could be done to support that feeling of feeling down after the chemotherapy. So for this, for example, in this particular setting, I would not going to be recommending herbs.
00:30:31
Speaker
But I will certainly perform acupuncture and we have a lot of patients who are coming to us for that particular support that they find in energy and reduction of their nausea. So there is always a way to compromise on certain treatments and be flexible.
00:30:51
Speaker
But in our center, we have wonderful, wonderful team of physicians and other practitioners that we complement each other greatly. Patients are always looked at an individual and would never just chase the symptoms. So there's great collaboration.
00:31:12
Speaker
And there are very few moments that we would say that, you know, the acupuncture would not work for this patient. So that's very rare. Because acupuncture is fairly safe, that's something I want to point out. It's probably one of the most safest intervention that people can try. The record is wonderful. So there's really, really low chances of any side effects from acupuncture other than maybe tiny little bruise from the needle, but that's about it.
00:31:42
Speaker
I guess to rephrase my question another way, just in allopathic medicine, patients tend to take a considerable number of medications. Do you feel like for a lot of patients, there's just sort of this ceiling of health they can reach when they have a lot of different medications in their body?
00:32:03
Speaker
Well, I wouldn't say there's a ceiling that they can reach. Definitely, there's plenty of people with multiple medications that it takes time and then we're in a great position that we can actually access the patient's record and see the medications they're taking and subsequently adjust our treatment to understand what is going on and what are the side effects of those medications and whether there's a conflicting
00:32:29
Speaker
data about it, but we're certainly taking a look at all that, and this is what's so special about being part of this integrative group, that we can actually see each other's records, we can see hospital records, and that what makes this practice unique is that we can actually have all the information that we need to come up with the right diagnosis and plan the treatment. It's a little different when the patient comes to private practice,
00:32:56
Speaker
And you rely on patients' own words, and maybe they'll bring some records. Maybe they don't. Maybe they'll tell you the medications they take. Maybe they won't. But this is the great part of being in this integrative setting.
Preventative Healthcare Culture
00:33:12
Speaker
As you said earlier, Eastern medicine is just a lot about prevention.
00:33:18
Speaker
American healthcare is kind of very reactive as opposed to preventative. What obstacles do you see that exist to Americans? What obstacles exist to Americans from Americans more fully embracing preventative care?
00:33:34
Speaker
I think it has to do with the lifestyle that we live in. It is a foreign concept of prevention. We only react to a symptom, in a good case scenario. Most people even ignore symptoms, right? So how many times people just ignore the pain here and there, so it's going to go away, but it doesn't.
00:33:57
Speaker
Sooner or later, it'll come out. If we could pay attention to our body communicating with us, pain is a signal. Pain is this communicative device that body's getting your attention. If we can pay attention to how much time we actually spend in front of the computer and stressors surrounding our lives and just step back a little bit and find time for ourselves, and I always stress this with my patients,
00:34:26
Speaker
I was trying to understand what is that individual patient likes? What makes them happy? And that's one of the questions I always ask. What is it that you like to do? Not what is expected of you at work, at family settings. What is it that you really like to do? And some of these people, they cannot answer that. And it takes them time to actually remember what is it that they really like. And when they find that, I'm trying to build on that. I'm trying to encourage that.
00:34:56
Speaker
So I would say paying attention to your own body and the way the body communicates with you when you're feeling tired, when you're feeling pain, when you're feeling something off. Don't procrastinate. Pay attention. What are some of the first steps you kind of use in a clinical setting to get a patient to tune in, right? You know, you say people kind of have blocked out
00:35:20
Speaker
over time, the things that they like or the things that make them happy. So can you expand more on kind of like what that conversation looks like and how you get people to tune in to what's actually going on inside them? Yes. I'll use an example of IBS that is discussed earlier. A lot of the digestive systems started with an event or with a chain of events that if you start questioning, it's more of a detective work at some point. When you start asking people, what is it that led you to this?
00:35:50
Speaker
And the light all goes on and said, oh, wow, I didn't even think about it, but it makes total sense. This is what caused it. How do I allow that to happen? And that's where this conversation starter gets us to the next level. And the next level with, okay, well, now that we have more or less identified what can we do about it in addition to obviously treating the symptoms at this point,
00:36:16
Speaker
That would be my job, but your job would be to do your homework and try to get yourself out of the situation that causes it to begin with. So that would be the conversation I would like to have. And again, it is always a communication with the patient. It's a dialogue.
00:36:33
Speaker
That's probably the most important thing that I think that we do in integrative medicine is that we have this discussion with the patient, trying to really understand them and trying to make them in the stems themselves. And I think this is the question that opens that lock finally. And as many conversations we have along this journey that we take together,
00:36:58
Speaker
My hope that it pays off in the long term and even if we're able to help right now, I hope that this patient will pay attention to what's going on in his life or her life and then make the changes before it is the time to see us.
Spiritual and Natural Foundations of Chinese Medicine
00:37:15
Speaker
I'll wrap up our discussion by considering the mind, body, and spirit that is so important to Oriental medicine. How does Oriental medicine engage the spirit?
00:37:31
Speaker
Well, spirituality is number one postulate in Chinese medicine, and that's what goes, when I said meditation, that spirituality is part of it. We're a part of nature. The language that's been used to transmit this medicine over thousands of years
00:37:48
Speaker
is the language of nature. The terminology, and this is where a lot of this misunderstanding is happening with the illopathic community, is that the language that we use today is the language that was used thousands of years ago. And the reason it was used
00:38:03
Speaker
that way is because they observe nature, right? The earlier physicians observed nature. They put the names on to the certain symptoms as they saw it in nature. For example, if somebody would come in with tremor of a hand, what resembles a tremor, if you look around this, when the leaves on the trees are shaking, what causes the shake? It's the wind. So they've decided to call it internal wind.
00:38:32
Speaker
If somebody comes in with trauma, believe it or not, it is still the terminology that we use today. It's an internal wind. So spirituality was a big part of creating this medicine and this understanding that we are
00:38:47
Speaker
part of a big universe and a part of something bigger than us. There's Taoism and what have you, but just to observe nature and put that spirituality makes, you know, would make a big difference in somebody who is symptomatic and who's not.
00:39:09
Speaker
I guess my last natural question for you would be operating in New York City and Manhattan. How do you get in touch with nature when you have so much busyness and concrete around you, I guess?
00:39:21
Speaker
Well, it is the most challenging part for me personally. I prefer to work on walking to work back and forth. I also try to spend more time by the water. There's different energy, especially along the Hudson River. There's something magical about the energy of the water that draws me particular. But throughout history, I've noticed that there's a lot talk about water in Chinese medicine being by the water and being
00:39:50
Speaker
re-energized by the water. So as much as I can, I'd like to spend time by the water and try to find a moment to meditate. By meditation, it doesn't mean that you have to sit down and chant or repeat the mantra. It's just finding a time to actually
00:40:12
Speaker
Breathe deeper, relax your diaphragm, take a breath, and you can spend a few minutes, even as you walk, just to calm yourself down to activate the parasympathetic responses by breathing. And again, we're talking about the brain and God access, right? These are all related, so if something is bothering us, it will manifest itself in all sorts of chain reaction and production of inflammatory protein in your God, et cetera, et cetera.
00:40:40
Speaker
And this is the concept of putting this ancient medicine with this modern medicine together and understanding that we are all part of the bigger universe and that there is no difference in Eastern medicine and Western medicine is just one medicine, whatever works. So the whole point of this integrative medicine and particularly is to generate this understanding and to be able to offer both
00:41:09
Speaker
So I hope that we are trying to do it in the way that people appreciate and they understand.
Gut-Brain Axis and Integrative Medicine
00:41:20
Speaker
So I'm very lucky to be part of this program and I'm happy that all of us think alike and we have a wonderful, wonderful team.
00:41:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's great to hear. I definitely understand what you mean about the water. I actually work in MRI research and, you know, a common thing, right, is a lot about MRI is that you're looking at the protons in people's bodies and protons come from water. We're basically water, right? So it's kind of a fun and unique connection whenever you're around water because ultimately we are just water. Exactly.
00:41:56
Speaker
Time for a lightning round, a series of fast-paced questions that tell us more about you. What is your favorite hot beverage? Tea. What kind of tea? Black tea. What is your ideal Saturday afternoon? I like skiing as much as I can get out. I would like to ski in every weekend. What is your favorite book? I like history.
00:42:28
Speaker
the history of New York, Gotham, I would say. What is your guilty pleasure or vice? Listening to records and not thinking about anything, vinyl records. And lastly, what's the topic in medicine you look forward to exploring more?
00:42:53
Speaker
I would say the God-brain access is very much of interest of mind. And I think that's the future of understanding all the gastrointestinal conditions. Dr. Oleg Fabrikan, thanks so much for joining the show. Good to be with you, John. Thank you for having me.
00:43:22
Speaker
Thanks for listening to The Wound Dresser. Until next time, I'm your host John Neery. Be well.