Transcript
Speaker: Howdy. This is Mission Texas. A political podcast about winning Texas by 2032 or else we may lose the White House for a generation. I'm one of your hosts, Alex Clark.
Speaker: And I am Kate Rumsey. Other podcasts may focus on the day to day the next election. But we are keeping the eyes of Texas on the bigger prize. What happens after the next census?
Speaker: Welcome back to Mission Texas. We are recording this on April Fool's Day and maybe the joke is on us because we've had some technical issues already, but or on Alex who's severely outnumbered on this podcast because today, no pranks, we have three incredible women serious about flipping the Texas courts in the state of ours.
Speaker: Welcome to the podcast, Holly Taylor running for the Criminal Court of Appeals and Justices Shari Kelly and Maggie Ellis who are both running for the Texas Supreme Court. So, I have to say, as a lawyer, we're both lawyers on this podcast, and we both wanted to mention that we've clerked for judges, and we are very respectful of our judges in our life, so we want to make sure that we are calling you guys the right thing.
Speaker: But for purposes of this podcast, we are going to call y'all by your first name, if that's okay. alet Yep, sounds great. Amazing. Okay. And also, I'm sorry to say that as a lawyer, i don't know a ton about either of your courts because I'm not before them as much. I hear about them in the news and the big opinions. And I'm really curious about the importance of these courts and for our listeners. But before we do that, we like to dive into your origin story and how you guys got where you're going and also the court that you're running for. So maybe we can start with Holly Taylor.
Speaker: Hey, thanks, Kate. So I am running for the second Supreme Court here in Texas. I'm running for our Court of Criminal Appeals.
Speaker: And what lots of folks don't know is that Texas is one of only two states in the nation that has two Supreme Courts. So the Texas Supreme Court, which they'll tell you more about, only handles civil appeals. I'm running for the one that handles criminal appeals. And I'm a board certified criminal appellate attorney. I've been practicing for over 25 years.
Speaker: And what made me do this crazy thing to run statewide for this court was that after spending most of my career as a prosecutor, I started helping out our conviction integrity unit in Travis County with wrongful conviction investigations, doing things like, you know, DNA testing, scientific review, witness interviews, et cetera, to work with organizations like the Innocence Project to ensure that our convictions had integrity.
Speaker: And through that work, and I have to say going into it, i as a former prosecutor, I really didn't think we were going to have too many wrongful convictions in our county because we'd been working so hard to ensure that justice was done.
Speaker: But I was wrong. And what I discovered was that we did have wrongful convictions. And what really destroyed me was was that I discovered that some of them were my cases.
Speaker: It was devastating. thought like hell ah to ensure justice in those cases. I'm proud to say that those defendants have been exonerated now.
Speaker: But what it revealed to me is that there are cracks in the foundation of our criminal justice system. And it was doubly devastating to discover that in a few of the cases, because we went after the wrong person, the truly guilty and dangerous person walked free and committed more serious violent crimes in our community.
Speaker: So it was a huge motivator for me to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again and that we address these problems with the system. And that's why I'm running for this court, the Court of Criminal Appeals, which sits at the top of the criminal justice system here in Texas.
Speaker: Thank you, Holly. um That resonates with me as a former prosecutor as well, so I can't imagine. It's been about 10 years since I started law school. What I remember from law school, and I try to explain the two Supreme Courts thing, i i always try to say that it's like an X-shaped judicial system. You can tell me if this is correct or not.
Speaker: but Alex is using his hands to justify Maybe like Y-Campers style X. um ah You start in these like civil and criminal trial courts and then you meet in the regional appellate court, but then it spreads out again. is that is that correct? That's fair, although there's since there are so many, there are 14 regional intermediate appellate courts. They all handle both civil and criminal cases.
Speaker: So I guess you could think of it as an X or I like to think of it as a pyramid with two tops. But at the top, you know, it splits out again. So if they go up that last level of appeal, the civil cases go to the Texas Supreme Court and the criminal cases go to the court of criminal appeals.
Speaker: But the Court of Criminal Appeals has a lot of other jurisdiction beyond those discretionary appeals. Like they handle all death penalty cases. They skip the intermediate courts of appeals and go straight to the Court of Criminal Appeals. And they also handle thousands of felony writs of habeas corpus, those sort of Hail Mary appeals each year. And those are the ones in which these actual innocence claims tend to arise.
Speaker: um Well, so then let's turn to the civil side. So, Shari, let's ah hear about your origin story and how you got here. Sure. So my I'll go back. I'll go back even further than Holly. But so I am from Daytona Beach, Florida.
Speaker: I grew up there. i grew up with my grandparents and my mom and I was. getting ready to go to college and there wasn't money in the coffers, in the family coffers to send me to college. And so I really started beating the bush and trying to figure out how will I go to school? And so I received some information about an ROTC scholarship.
Speaker: And so I remember talking with one of my male friends. I remember this so distinctly and saying, oh, I think I'm going to go for this scholarship because I had a military background. My grandmother was a WASP in World War II, a woman's zero service pilot. My grandfather was a colonel in the army.
Speaker: And I had a lot of pressure to be in the military, but I resisted that. and I thought, no, i this I need this. And he told me, Shari, they're going to take one look at you and realize you're not the army type.
Speaker: me And that was the straw that broke the camel's back. And I applied for the scholarship and I got the scholarship and he didn't. And then I went to the university of Florida and I started out as like a bumbling cadet that fell down on my PT tests and got zero points on the run. And then when I graduated, I was the, the fighting gator battalion commander.
Speaker: So I ah work worked my way up to the top. And then I, asked for delay of service to go to law school. And so I went to law school. And then when I left law school, I had a military commitment to fulfill. And so I went on active duty, actually, at the beginning of the Iraq War, the beginning of 2003. And three and it was a really interesting time to serve, to be a lawyer and learn what are the legal, judge you know, what's our legal justification for being in the war. um So I defended soldiers at courts martial all around the Southwest at Fort Hood, at Fort Sam Houston, at Fort Huachuca, Fort Polk, tried a lot of cases, tried to detain the abuse case, as a matter of fact. And then when I left the military, I went to work for a judge on the Court of Criminal Appeals, the court that Holly's running for, Judge Womack.
Speaker: as a staff attorney. And then I did the a hard pivot and did civil litigation. and then ultimately, I decided that I really wanted to be a prosecutor. That's a job that I'd always wanted. As as a 10-year attorney, I still had not had that job. And so I worked doing prosecution in a little county, in smaller county, rather than New Braunfels in Comau County.
Speaker: And then eventually worked my way to Travis, where I served with Justice Ellis, where we both served at the district attorney's office. And I loved what I did. i enjoyed it a lot, but an opportunity came up on my court. Actually, someone approached me about running. And to be quite frank, that's not something that I had in mind. plan to be a judge. It's not something I'd really thought of myself as doing, but i went through this decision-making, you know, am I qualified for this job? Absolutely.
Speaker: Do I want this job? Yes. Does it matter if I run and I lose? no and And at that time, that was 2018. And I keep telling people, 2026 feels like 2018, but on steroids. Okay. The energy. And at that time, you know, people as Democrats, were when I was, I currently serve, I should have said this, on the third court of appeals with Justice Ellis. So that's one of the intermediate courts we were talking about in the center of the X. So we do everything.
Speaker: We do criminal, we do civil, we do everything but death penalty appeals, pretty much. And ah with With a few exceptions, there's a new appellate court, but, ah and I, um when I was running, people said that Democrats will never be elected to that court. it was all Republicans. It had been solidly Republicans for, I think, 10 years at that point.
Speaker: And, um I ran and I won and I won not by a little, but by a lot. I think I won by 53% at the end of the day, about 90,000 votes. And I bring up that story because that energy, right, is being so amplified now makes me think this is the time for this highest court.
Speaker: to flip because I think your everyday average person didn't really appreciate the third branch of government. And now they hear about it all the time, right? And yesterday, you know, a federal court just stopped the the building of the ball or the white house ballroom. And people are like, Oh, courses yeah. Courts can do that.
Speaker: Yes. Like we, everyone keep forgetting about that third branch checks and balances. So um I am on a court, the the third court of appeals. And while I was on my court, the legislature created a new appellate court to handle everything that the attorney general does in the state judge. And before that was in our court.
Speaker: And they took it away from us. And the governor, after they did that, put out and gave a speech where he said, oh, we did it to take it from the liberal justices on the third court of appeals.
Speaker: And i I think I underestimated the impact that would have on me. But that was pretty, in hindsight, pretty devastating to think that we were doing our job and doing it well.
Speaker: And that the government, just for political reasons, would scoop that up and give that to somebody else. And so I felt like, you know what, maybe we just need to go to the next level here. Definitely seems like a pattern in this administration and also the party in charge that they don't allow like accountability. So Kim Paxton doesn't want to be accountable. So he's got Greg Abbott's going to create new courts for him so that if he has an issue, it goes up to them.
Speaker: But you're right, like the last stop is the Supreme Court of our state. So and I understand Maggie is running to be the chief of it. So tell us about you, Maggie, and your race. Yes. So thank you both so much for for having us. I'll start by saying that being on the campaign trail with these women that I already knew and just admire is is is so wonderful. But we can kind of, but we hear each other's campaign and stump speeches so often that we could probably do them for each other. But this is the first time that I've heard ah Justice Kelly's private Benjamin moment.
Speaker: motion yeah I have blood running down my knees when not because I fell twice. And I was like, how many points do I get? and they're like, zero. I was like, ooh, let's see how this is going to work out. with it Where's the army with the condos? and shut that's the That's the Air Force, Maggie. That's the Air Force. All right. Whatever. Leave it in. a little
Speaker: I know we we fly the planes, they jump out of them. But anyways, sorry, Maggie, go ahead. My husband is a Marine. So yeah, I get and hear all the different jokes for the different branches. of ah his We have a good friend who tells him all the time not to eat the green crayons if they're not ripe.
Speaker: So... So my I'm going to go back ah even a little bit further than Justice Kelly. ah My origin story is I grew up transient. We were homeless when i was a child. I was in and out of school.
Speaker: and went to eight elementary schools in three different states when we were in school. you know We would often have to leave in the middle of the night. And when I was 10 years old, my mother stopped taking us to school altogether. that So the last time i i was born in Texas, had lived in Texas for a a lot of my early childhood, and then we were all over the western part of the United States.
Speaker: um And the last time I had been in school, we were in Nebraska very briefly and had to leave in the middle of the night. And then when I was 11 and a half, we were living in our car in New Mexico.
Speaker: And we were in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. And I remember my mother saying, you know, we're in Truth or Consequences. You know, what is it that you really want? And I said, I really want to go back to school. I miss being in school. And she drove me home to Texas, left me at a gas station about two miles from my father's house.
Speaker: um She gave me $5 and this is back in the late 70s. So there was still, you know, phone books and pay phones. And I had to figure out how to call a cab to come pick me up and figure out where my father lived. But she drove away and I needed to see her again for 12 years.
Speaker: I am the only one of my eight siblings who has ever attended a university or graduated from college. oh When i was 22 years old I was a single mom with an infant and a two-year-old, and I was raising my baby sister by myself with no help from anyone. I went to our community college, ACC, took classes as I could. um it took me 16 years to get my undergraduate degree, and I was a teacher, and then i was a foster mom, and then I went to law school so I could be an advocate for kids who were like me and my siblings.
Speaker: When I graduated from law school, I went to work in five of the counties that I now serve. I did primarily low bono and pro bono work. I was terrible at money as a lawyer. was It was a lot of hard work.
Speaker: And, um you know, someone would call and say, There's a woman who who lives in Bryant County and she needs a divorce and she can't afford a lawyer. And I said, that sounds like my client. So I did that work. i was then hired at the DA's office, as Justice Kelly mentioned. i was a prosecutor at the DA's office. I did primarily juvenile and CPS work.
Speaker: And then i was briefly appointed as administrative law judge with the state office of administrative hearings. Then i was asked to come back to Travis County and work in the general counsel's office. So I did general counsel work for about six years.
Speaker: And then the opportunity came to run for the third court. And I'm the only woman in Texas. I'm nationally certified in child welfare law and state board certified in juvenile law. And in order to become certified, you have to write these appeals. And I loved it.
Speaker: I thought this is the absolute best. Researching and writing in my pajamas is a dream. so so opportunity to um see justice done at that level. Because, you know, every county has a different culture and justice looks very, very different in every county in Texas. And so having that opportunity to me was, as Justice Kelly said, it was like, you know, you you go through all the the questions. And our our theme for the race was, we had two, was, well, we had you have nothing we have nothing to lose but the race because we had the opportunity to meet so many incredible people.
Speaker: um put 40,000 miles on the track knocking on thousands of doors it went to all 24 counties. Well, wait till you hear Holly's story about going to town.
Speaker: But, and we also said you can't serve people that you don't see. And we learned so much. and And Alex, to your point about the X, you know, some counties are so small that those district courts, it becomes more of a Y because they do both the criminal and the civil cases. They don't have In Travis County, we're so fortunate that we have that complete X of having dedicated civil and criminal courts.
Speaker: So it's just ah it was a wonderful experience. Now, I'm running for Chief Justice of the Texas Supreme Court. I had just won my seat on the Court of Appeals, and there was some...
Speaker: Last summer, you know, Travis County, we get in the third court, we get so many cases that they we are what's called a transfer out court. So they will take some of our cases and transfer them to other of the other 14 jurisdictional courts. And now the 15th, Justice Chief Justice Blacklock was appointed. He did not do that. This fourth quarter transfer. And it it made us.
Speaker: made our numbers look really bad. Even though three of the top five producing justices are on our court, we still only hit about 86% of our numbers. And if we don't hit 95%,
Speaker: then we have to go explain to the state legislature why. And it was not on us, but it made us look bad. And so I was pretty irritated at that point. And my husband said, no, you cannot.
Speaker: Like, we're not doing we're not doing this again right now. but But then in October, the Supreme Court issued orders that said it was not a violation of the canons of the judicial conduct for a judge to refuse to perform a marriage based on a deeply held religious belief, which is an attack on the LGBT community.
Speaker: I am the first openly queer woman to serve as a justice in Texas. We have, and we've had several out lesbians who have served going back to the nineties, but they were not, it was a time where you could not campaign openly. And I have the fortune of living in a time where I could, and be that voice. And I felt like it was an attack not only on the LGBT community, but also it so it's extended to other communities. a judge can refuse, a judge who is authorized by statute to perform these civil ceremonies, refuse to perform a marriage for an interracial couple, a Jewish couple, a Muslim couple, based on a deep re-held religious belief. And I was so appalled. And my husband said,
Speaker: Let's do it. And so that's the reason we got into the race. And as as Justice Kelly said, I think it's going to be a very good year. and We have a good opportunity to bring balance and independence back to our courts in Texas.
Speaker: What incredible story. Yeah. Thank you. In the meantime, you tell them I'm ordained online and I'll i'll marry them. I just performed my sixth wedding over the weekend. and fun Amazing. Yeah. yeah I appreciate you you mentioning the the why as opposed to the x. I mean, i think it's so easy to forget when we're in our safe blue democratic cities that there's a whole other world out there.
Speaker: And not everybody has the population to support criminal and civil trial courts. That's that's an interesting point. And I think in Collin County, I've practiced in there, which is McKinney f Frisco for our non-lawyers. And they share criminal and civil duties, some of them. so it's very interesting because I would be waiting for my hearing on a civil case and they'd be hearing a family law matter. And, you know, just so different vibes, you know, like we have this fully brief thing. We've got exhibits, we've got binders. And then they're like, you know, there's some family law issue that the judge is also having to deal with. So it's it just feels like they have to wear so many hats.
Speaker: Y'all are in the Austin area and that's where I interned for a state trial judge, ah the Honorable Jan Soifer. um And then, um like like Kate mentioned at the top of the episode, i clerked for for Judge Yackel before he retired for two years.
Speaker: I will say that the most exhausting legal experience I've ever had was sitting through a family law. anything divorce child custody even if I didn't have like any responsibilities any memos to write or or anything just to sit there and watch it I always felt just exhausted going home so yeah Maggie have a lot of respect for the kind of work you do in the child justice and and juvenile area so very compelling life background and I hope you get to use that on behalf of all the Texans each and every one of you bring
Speaker: such an interesting backstory and conviction. I mean, there's a, I think a common thread here, which is you both have the life experience to be independent without being indifferent.
Speaker: You have a point of view, but it's not coming from the democratic party elites in the same way where sometimes it feels like I'll see judicial opinions come out And I wonder, like, was this a directive from the governor or the lieutenant governor or the attorney general?
Speaker: Well, into the Supreme Court, think right now. There's three women and six men. Right. And there are four spots that are up and then we have all female candidates on the Democratic ticket.
Speaker: And so that will be. You know, that that will change. Not let let's take party out of it. That'll change the whole culture of the court, because, right, this is the court that's making decisions about bodily autonomy and making decisions about what parents can do and what parents can't do.
Speaker: And to think. that most of those decisions are being made by men. I mean, i'm the I don't think, you know, it's not that, I'm not saying every court should be all women or for, you know, for all time, that, hey, we had all men for, I'm sure, 100 years, right? Wouldn't kill us to have more women on the Texas Supreme Court making these types of decisions and coming from a different perspective that hasn't been there before.
Speaker: And in fact, there's never been a woman Democrat on the Court of Criminal Appeals. Really? I didn't even realize that. Wow. Yeah, I think. I mean, I couldn't verify it with the Google ai but Based on my own personal knowledge, like I went back through every judge I can think of.
Speaker: And I cannot think of a single one. So somebody may prove me wrong, but I don't think there's ever been one. And Audra Riley is the other woman that's running for the Court of Criminal Appeals. So if we win, we'll be the first two Democratic women to ever serve on that court. And I think she will be the first Black woman to ever serve on Can you guys remind us and our listeners just the ideological spectrum on these courts? Because we all kind of know what's going on in the U.S. Supreme Court and that split, and they're so well known. But can you remind us what's going on on your courts?
Speaker: I believe seven of the nine justices on the Texas Supreme Court were appointed by Governor Abbott. Not that one was appointed by Perry, actually, technically. But seven out of nine were go goop started out as gubernatorial appointees.
Speaker: And so when you talk about having balance and independence on the courts, when you think about... Justice Kelly was talking earlier about the 15th Court of Appeals. And, you know, if you are going to sue Governor Abbott or if you're going to sue Paxton, those cases are going to be heard by the 15th Court of Appeals.
Speaker: And in the time for the time being, those they've been appointed by the governor. The newly created 15th court. goes Legislature created the 15th court.
Speaker: governor abbott appointed um The the justices on court. And if somebody sues him, then the justices he appointed are going to hear it. We've looked into it and I've done nothing wrong.
Speaker: yeah it and Just try to add to it, Maggie just said, um these are statewide seats. So like of all other statewide seats, like governor, lieutenant governor, et cetera,
Speaker: um No Democrat has won in over 30 years. So they they are yeah all Republican, just like the other statewide offices. And um like ah Maggie Ashari said, the Texas Supreme Court consists primarily of gubernatorial appointees.
Speaker: um The Court of Criminal Appeals is is more, ah these folks have been elected, but, well, there's actually one appointee. but Last time in 2024, three incumbent Republicans who are all conservative Republicans who were on the ballot ended up swept out by candidates backed by Ken Paxton.
Speaker: Because he was unhappy with one case. that the court decided in which they court, eight of the nine Republican judges on the court held that he did not have jurisdiction under our state constitution to prosecute individual elected officials across the state vote for election fraud. it was ah It was a separation of powers ruling based on our state constitution. And Mr. Paxton did not like that ruling.
Speaker: Of course. They have a ruling wish restraining their powers whatsoever, right? But it just goes to this concept of, and we see it with the president, if a judge does not rubber stamp what you have done, then somehow they are unethical.
Speaker: I mean, there's this news, this message that's going out in the news and in the media that, again, if the third branch, if the judicial branch doesn't support the executive branch, then they're wrong. And I think we need to send a lot of people back to school, right? I mean, these are three co-equal branches of government. And I just, I keep getting shocked at how people talk about the courts and they think that there's a line and the line is the executives, number one,
Speaker: The legislature's number two and the courts are number three. And that's our, that's our rank. That's our pecking order. Yeah. Chain of command. Doesn't exist. And to Holly's point with that race, not only did did the attorney general recruit people and promote people to run for those benches, he went on talk shows and said, you need to call up the judges that made this decision and like let them know what you think. And those judges received death threats. I mean, it was a new, it's something I've been a lawyer for,
Speaker: almost 23 years, and I just never seen anything like that. before they The people would take these attacks on judges. It's like the rule of thumb damped. And yeah um Justice Kelly's point, it is a complete erosion of our separation of powers.
Speaker: That presents a real electoral opportunity too, I would think. One, because because all of you are running for statewide offices, dear listener, wherever you are located in this great state of ours, you get to vote for these people.
Speaker: Yep. Right. There's there's no gerrymandering a statewide seat. um The other is that traditionally, academically, these are conservative ideas of limited government.
Speaker: Right. Checks and balances. Conservative in the sense like it goes back to the Federalist Papers and Alexander Hamilton. Right. Like we don't want an executive branch to have this much power.
Speaker: Yeah. Holly, you were going to say something? Well, I was just gonna say that this the death threats that these judges received is actually part of a trend. And then I read that there's a 400% increase and threats of violence against judges in recent years. um I think we've we've seen that kind of trend in society. Well, it's really focused on judges, particularly when they stand up for the rule of law.
Speaker: So it's something to be concerned about. And we have a crisis in terms of independence of our courts. I think it's really critical right now that we choose a path in which our courts are independent from the influence of the executive branch branch and impartial.
Speaker: And that gets harder and harder to do and this world. And one thing that listeners can do is to educate your friends and neighbors that in our state, we have the power to select these judges. The people have the power to select the judges on our highest courts because they're When they hear about the Supreme Court of the United States and they think about, okay, well, it's something somebody that's been appointed. And even, you know, even though the slate's out and the ticket's out, people still don't get the fact that they get the ultimate, they get the ultimate choice for these races, unlike all their, most of their friends and family in other states.
Speaker: Right. And I think, you know, we talk a lot about constitutional issues and our democracy. And sometimes i I worry that listeners or the people at home that are voting are thinking more about their pocketbook and their health care. But I think it's important to also note, and I would love Maggie's perspective, which is that these courts have a huge impact on our lives, as Holly was saying, about the criminal cases and the innocence projects and and also the Supreme Court in here in Texas deciding on to reproduce. rights, as Shari mentioned. So Maggie, what are your thoughts on the role, especially as a chief of the Supreme Court, in affecting people's day-to-day lives?
Speaker: Well, first of all, I will say, you know, most people, when they think about the courts, the majority of Texans, if they have an interaction with the courts, it's going to be because they've got a traffic ticket.
Speaker: You know, they're they're just not going to. And so for them, they don't think about except for the big news items, right? Except for abortion rights and things that they're hearing on the news, but they don't think about necessarily how it's going to impact them.
Speaker: The Chief Justice of the Texas Supreme Court is very uniquely situated to have these access to justice initiatives. You know, we have these commissions that help in these family law cases, right, and and and child welfare cases and and people with experiencing mental health issues.
Speaker: Our previous Chief Justice, Nathan Hecht, would actually go to Washington, D.C. and advocate for funding for indigent defense and for these programs.
Speaker: And we don't have that anymore. And I'm not sure if you're aware, but the indigent defense funding has been slashed. And if you think about your right to counsel, and we talked about these smaller counties,
Speaker: They are having ah hard time finding attorneys to give somebody their constitutional right to representation in courts because they don't have the funds.
Speaker: And so one of my priorities is to refill the coffers and to expand our access to justice initiatives. Fifteen percent of Texans live at or below the poverty line.
Speaker: And about 25% represent themselves in these family law cases. When you talk to people, what's the most important things to you, right? It's your liberty, your children, and your money.
Speaker: And I think it's important that we look at expanding access to the courts for people in these family law cases. i mean, you can do so much damage to a child. You can often do more damage to a child in a regular family law case than is done in termination cases, right?
Speaker: So I think that one thing that we can do as the Supreme Court and as the Chief Justice is to advocate for additional funding and to expand these programs because those do affect the legal facets.
Speaker: I'm glad you mentioned that. I know the ah the one big, beautiful bill, which is not beautiful at all, it zeroed out the the funding for the and kinds of legal aid organizations here in Texas that people rely on.
Speaker: And before we lose a threat, I just want to say like the this threat to the physical safety of judges is not theoretical. We're not just raising the specter of it to scare people into votes. It's a real thing. I remember whenever I was clerking for Judge Yackel, we had the the case of the man who ambushed Judge Julie Kassurek in our court.
Speaker: Terrifying to be ambushed while you're in your car with your child. is It's really quite miraculous that she survived the wounds to her face, her neck, her head.
Speaker: They weren't just trying to scare her or hurt her in a little way. they were aiming to kill her. And so I'm just so grateful that she survived that. And just, I think a lot about the judges who they're trying to do the right thing, no matter what, even with all this out there. Yep.
Speaker: And I just want to point out, and I don't know that this is a factor, but, you know, of course, there are three judges from the nine on the Court of Criminal Appeals um who would have been on the ballot in 2026.
Speaker: And um one of them is the one that voted with Paxton in that case. And the other two, of you know, sided with the other eight and did not. And neither one of them are running again. For their seat. Yeah, just being bullied out of running for their own seat again.
Speaker: neither one of them are running again for their seats on the court criminal appeals. And I'll say this, I guess, you know, one thing that's kind of interesting, the dynamic in the culture on the Supreme Court, there have been openings. And instead of finishing out the term, there's a justice that I suspect was forced out. And he left early, somebody who spoke out a lot, one of the Republicans.
Speaker: um And then, but he didn't finish his term. He left early. So the governor could appoint his replacement. So that replacement can be the incumbent, right? Mm-hmm. And it's it is interesting that the two Republicans on the CCA would not do that, right? They're staying till they're saying till the end, I think, as their final act of defiance in that regard.
Speaker: i'll Help the ah the listeners understand that the appointment process in Texas is not quite like the appointment process in the federal government, right?
Speaker: When the president appoints a judge, it has to go through the United States Senate for advice and consent. Right. It has to be approved by at least a majority of the senators.
Speaker: Is there anything equivalent at all that kind of check and balance a process of vetting or is it really just the governor just likes whoever they think's best?
Speaker: Well, it depends on the legislature's in session. I mean, the difference is that when the president makes an appointment, it's a lifetime appointment. All the federal judges have lifetime appointments to give them freedom. So people that are being appointed now at 32 by Donald Trump will be judges for the next 40 plus years. It's something just to think on. For Texas... Just a moment there. Has there ever been someone appointed by Greg Abbott who's lost their election? Yes. Yes.
Speaker: Yes, x Xavier Rodriguez for an unexpired term. So what happens is if you're appointed midterm, like these are six-year terms, you don't get to, so and and Judge retires on year one or year two, year three, you don't get to write out to the end if it's an unexpired term, and I'm running for an unexpired term.
Speaker: You have to run at the next elected the next election. And if you lose, it's considered a vacant office. And if you lose, the person that wins takes office immediately with two weeks after the election. So that happened with Xavier Rodriguez.
Speaker: He was appointed by the governor. He lost his primary. Then he went on to lose to Steve Smith. And Steve Smith took office in November of 2002. But to your to your point about the appointment process,
Speaker: Basically, the governor, like for the 15th court, those just those justices will sit for at least two years before they're elected. And so there's a lot of power in terms of creating the incumbent. But my understanding, and ah Holly and Maggie, please understand. But, you know, correct me if I speak out of turn here, but like Brett Busby was appointed during a legislative session and then he had to be confirmed by the Senate, I believe. But if you're appointed not during a legislative session, then they don't go through an appointment process.
Speaker: Sounds pretty easy in a state with a part-time legislator to make your appointments out of session. i of there And if there are there are scholars listening to the pod who are like, Justice Kelly, let me break it down for you. and yeah I'm happy to be schooled, but I just remember that he had to go through the appointment process. And remember the Secretary of State, when he was appointed, he did not get confirmed a few years ago.
Speaker: So, I mean, it's an he he has an incumbent making machine. Oh, for sure. I mean, he's made all the incumbents on the court except for two i think. But nonetheless, Texas voters have a power that on the national stage we don't.
Speaker: And that is ultimately they do get to vote on the judges that are going to serve. And that's an incredible opportunity, especially right now. right I was just going to say, you know, at the district court level, the governor also appoints the vacancies at the district court level. And so, you know, in Travis County, those judges are only going to serve until the next election. but Right. So they're and oftentimes they won't even bother trying to run, but occasionally they will.
Speaker: And, you know, there are other states where, for example, the appointment process, they'll have a ah vetting committee, a commission that will, they'll say, we've vetted this group and then submit those names to the governor and the governor will choose, you know, they'll select, but but we don't have anything texas And for several of the justices, including Chief Justice Blacklock, who's who's Justice Ellis' opponent, um and my opponent, um Justice Sullivan, because I'm running for place too, not only were they appointed by the governor, they were the governor's lawyer. They were were they were the general counsel to the governor, as many who have come before. And it's like a ah pipeline of you work for the governor, you're his general counsel, and then you get promoted to the Supreme Court. I mean, it's happened...
Speaker: More than once. So I raise that to think when you're talking to your friends and neighbors about who are the justices to sit on the court, what type of expectations do you think that the governor has of someone that has been their that he is selected as his general counsel?
Speaker: and is promoted to be on the Supreme Court of Texas. What do you think about, what what would you expect their values to be and what their things are important to them to have held those roles and that confidence with the governor and let that inform your decision about whether or not those align with yours?
Speaker: When you look at, to to Justice Kelly's point, when you look at what has happened with, for example, Governor Abbott's anti-DEI initiatives, right? So the the legislature said, we're gonna pass this law so that you can't have DEI on your college campus.
Speaker: And then, yeah Abbott issued these executive orders that said, state agencies, you cannot have these DEI initiatives. And the Supreme Court said, you know huck yes, we're going to get into this too.
Speaker: We're going to issue orders and divorce the state of Texas from the American Bar Association's accreditation, which you know I guarantee you means that if your law school has any type of DEI initiative or awareness, your law school is likely not going to be accredited by the state bar of Texas.
Speaker: And there are top steps, you know, to that point, as the chief justice, the the chief justice gets to make and guide the court on these rules.
Speaker: And then the other justices, if you see when the rules come out, ah they all sign them. Everyone seems to be signing everything that Justice Blacklock proposes, all of these rules. I mean, I don't see anybody speaking out. And during COVID, it's kind of interesting because a few of the justices, including Justice Blacklock, wouldn't sign all of these.
Speaker: And just on a local level, this divorcing of, okay, this thought now that all of a sudden the American Bar Association is not to be trusted, and Justice Blackbuck has made that crystal clear in his statements, his state of the judiciary address when he gave that he gave. But, you know, also things like our local bar association, the Austin Bar. I would say for 100 years, the members of the Supreme Court of Texas have been a member of the Austin Bar Association.
Speaker: And then this year they have the accountant just write a letter. We're not paying for bar dues for any of the lawyers or any of the judges. For a nonpartisan group that does CLE and all these other things, we know we want lawyers to be educated. We want them.
Speaker: So to take that tool away with no explanation whatsoever, You know, that the the culture, I think that Justice Allen and Salis and are both very concerned about the culture over there.
Speaker: And is that culture reflecting the lawyers of the state, the people of the state, et cetera? Before we go into the last quarter of our podcast, I would be remiss if I didn't ask a little bit about how it's like campaigning, because it seems to me campaigning for a statewide judge office is very different than how the Senate campaign is going and the governor's race. And so can you before we go into our last our last two reoccurring segments, I would love to hear from at least one of you about that.
Speaker: ah My campaign ah released a press release a few months ago that we're going to go to every county in the state like Bayton 2018. And so we're up getting close to 40,000 miles on our car now. Pretty soon we're going to pass you, Maggie.
Speaker: um And we were at 62 counties so far. And it has been an absolute pleasure. I don't think that, you know, for me, I think I can be a more effective judge for all of Texas if I've actually visited with Texans in their communities and heard from them. And that's what we're in the process of doing.
Speaker: So I left my job as the director of the Public Integrity and Complex Crimes Division at the Travis County DA's office last November. And we've been fully pursuing the campaign. i'm also picking up some cases as a criminal defense attorney as well. But It's been quite an adventure. This last weekend, we were right down on the border and we saw this absolutely beautiful historic community that dates back to the 1700s and a bird sanctuary and met with all these folks. um It's just been amazing.
Speaker: It's been an amazing journey and it gives me hope. That's what I would say. It gives me hope. I have had interactions with people who are themselves not only ah professed Republicans, but sometimes they're actually elected Republican officials who once we we engage and they hear from me about ah my campaign and my motivations for running for this important court, tell me that they're going to support me and and and encourage their families to do so. And that gives me hope because they they i mean, we all agree that justice should not be a partisan issue.
Speaker: Right. and They're on board with that. So it's just we have to connect with people. And that's where we're failing. I think the Internet kind of sometimes gets in the way. And so often you hear people say, I've never had a Democratic candidate knock on my door. I've never had a judge knock on my door. People, they want to be they want to feel seen. They want to feel absolutely that they are represented.
Speaker: Yes, I hear that over and over again. I walked into um and ah a lawyer's office up in the panhandle and I said, hey, I'm a Democrat running statewide for judge. And he was like, a Democrat?
Speaker: No. ah like yes I just wanted to introduce myself and people got my support. I've never met a Democrat running statewide before. And I just had to walk in the door and say hello. And that was enough for that guy.
Speaker: Because you're in Texas, so many people will invite you in and put you aside to make. And it's it's a campaigning, especially in these rural parts of Texas, is something else. It's it's a a wonderful thing.
Speaker: It really is. And I can't tell you how many people have been, it's been like, it's been grandma or it's been ah the auntie. and they're like, I'm telling everyone, my entire family is going to vote for you.
Speaker: To the veterans piece, right? I'm a veteran. i always share that. It's on my campaign information. i went to airborne school. I was a paratrooper, jumped out perfectly good airplanes. And when people hear that, I would get kind of a similar reaction from Republicans. It's like, all right, fine.
Speaker: I'm going to vote for you. Right. But nobody else, you know, or I had somebody, this is an interesting story from a few years ago. I was at a in a campaign a event in Lockhart. And with this is when I was running the first time that we were with our opponents. My opponent was obviously Republican. And I gave my speech and at the time I was a prosecutor and I um came down and the and the woman approached me and she truly clearly liked me. And she said to me,
Speaker: um Okay, I just need to ask you something. You said you're a prosecutor and you were in the army, you're veteran. So how can you be a Democrat?
Speaker: And I said, what? And she goes, yeah, well, how can you be a prosecutor and and serving the army doesn't make any sense? And I said to her, well, I think people think serving your country is a Republican value, but it's not. It's an American value.
Speaker: And i want to serve my community and I want to serve my country. And that's, you know, how I've done it. She's like, hmm. She could tell, like, I i didn't fit.
Speaker: i didn't look like she expected me to look. I didn't say the things she expected me to say. um and And I wonder what happened to this to this gal, right? Did she go out and when she went in there, pull the lever for me or not?
Speaker: But I at least made her think about it a little bit more than she did before. And I think she was wearing like a real Greg Abbott shirt or something. I mean, she was a hardcore supporter of the Republican Party for sure.
Speaker: Well, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take and you don't get the people's votes if you don't ask for them. And so I think it's so great that you all are out there and and doing it. We hear all the time from political consultants and strategists that that it's honestly sometimes the biggest factor is whether or not someone can ask them for the vote.
Speaker: But with that, I think this is kind of a very natural shift. We can move into our good news segment, which I've really enjoyed this year. You know, the Republicans, yeah love them or hate them, they are really good about spreading their word.
Speaker: sharing their gospel and getting their good news. And it seems like they're all singing from the same shit of music. I want us as Democrats and listeners to get into the habit of also being able to share our gospel, our word, our good news. So what is something professionally, personally, just something you've heard about recently out there in the world that you just you you think it's such good news that it has to be shared?
Speaker: I've got a professional and a personal. okay So I recently ah learned and became board certified in judicial administration in the state of Texas. I'm one of 26 judges in the state to receive that board certification. i was previously board certified in and or I am board certified in criminal law as well. So I'm double board certified, but that was something, it was a brand new test and and very few people took the test and very few people passed the test. And so was so excited and relieved because, you know, I was a candidate and here I am sitting for a six hour exam and I thought, why am I doing this? Why do I, why have I done this again?
Speaker: um so that was awesome. and And made me very happy that my hard work paid off. And then on the personal note, I have a, I'm rambunctious, sassy three-year-old who in the morning will shout at me like, give me space, give me space. And I'm like getting ready for this podcast. And I like put on my lip liner and everything.
Speaker: And I get her in the car and I stick her in the car and I put on lipstick. So I wasn't going to go in for this kiss. It's just like, mama, give me a kiss. And I was like, she misses my kiss. Yeah, she made me give her two kisses. So that made me smile. That seconds before I ran in here.
Speaker: I love that. How about Holly? So um from a professional or campaign standpoint, um I was really encouraged by the primary results.
Speaker: ah So even though I was unopposed on the ballot, when the final the final count that I looked at, i ah got more votes in the primary than the two republican opponent the two Republicans who were running against each other combined, plus over 140,000 So that was amazing and much, much, much different than what happened when I ran 2024 for the first time. So really, really encouraging to me. And just seeing what happened in the primaries overall with all ah the Democratic candidates and with the turnout was super encouraging to me. I'm very excited. I think this is our year.
Speaker: I really do. Yeah. I really do. um And from a personal perspective, we ah actually, my husband and I and my other three kids, I have four kids, just got back from Japan where we went to visit one of my kids who is teaching there. She is teaching um elementary school students in Japan English.
Speaker: um And she's living there for a year. And when we met with her, it was just so amazing to see her in her element, um you know, becoming proficient in Japanese and and really bonding with these kids. and she said to me, Mom, I think when I come back, I want to be a teacher.
Speaker: And I'm just so proud of her. and I think this is a time when and she knows about everything that's going on in the world and here. And i think right now we have so many people who and and, you know, I understand where they're coming from, who are stepping away from teaching because it's so hard right now. But my kid is ready to step in.
Speaker: And I'm so proud of her. That's great. Maggie? I'm going to piggyback on what Holly said about the the turnout and what is happening, not only um across the United States, but in Texas, you know, with Taylor Remitt.
Speaker: The state bar puts out a judicial poll for candidates every you know election cycle. And I think for all of the top court elections, the Democrats got the most votes over the republican so in my race it was my my opponent my democratic opponent i combined had significantly more and i think you know uh justice kelly and and holly i think everyone um which i think is very interesting and very telling from the when you look at from attorney's perspective on the campaign trail i had a wonderful experience out in east texas we were in longview
Speaker: And I met this woman who was 101. She was two weeks from turning 102. And she was very excited about what was, she signed my petition to help get me on the ballot. um And she was very excited about, you know, the potential for what could actually happen. And she, and she hopes it will happen in in her lifetime. And so a little shout out to Mrs. Faghet in, Longview, Texas,
Speaker: um Personally, i just feel, i try to wake up every day feeling grateful for for where I am. i have four children, children. amazing grandchildren. And my son is a teacher in Austin.
Speaker: And the high school where he teaches is kind of right on the border between Travis County and Williamson County. And he became a VDR in both counties so that he could register all of his students to vote.
Speaker: So very, very proud of him. Good job. Well, I'll ah quickly share like, sorry, have a three year old. So she's always keeping me on my toes.
Speaker: And she's going on 16. know, we were doing her nails yesterday. Oh yeah, three a three-nager. That's what they call that. She likes to tell me what to do But I'm a lifelong musician. I started playing the piano and did choirs and I played the cello my whole life.
Speaker: For the first time yesterday, I took a piano lesson and I'm hoping my daughter will see me playing so that she will then get into piano as well. And that really set me, I think, up for success for you know using your brain in that way with my studies and also going to the public schools and then going off to university and law school. So that's my good news. How about you, Alex?
Speaker: Yeah, ah also on team three-year-old. She turns four on May 11th, and she but lets me remember it every day. And then I've also got, as of today, one-and-a-half-year-old.
Speaker: He turned 18 months today. Congrats. Thank you. Last weekend was his first Easter egg hunt. Aww. Aww. He made the church Instagram page. And so I'm so proud of my my photogenic baby boy. If I could add to this, it's a story that Holly and and probably just Kelly have heard. But, you know, when you talk about transitioning to speaking of something else,
Speaker: My granddaughter, who's five, when she was four, she started saying if she wanted to change the subject and talk about what she wanted to talk about, she would wait till you were finished talking. So she's very plait. And she would say, speaking of that, and change the subject. oh that I'm going to try that. yeah Especially when you're in court and you're hearing people argue, I'm sure you can say, well, speaking of that, on.
Speaker: yeah You are wrong. My favorite example of that is from our state party chair, Kendall Scudder, who told me whenever he was back in his early days, we're the same age, whenever he was running for city council, if someone would come up to him and say just something absolutely crazy.
Speaker: So you can use this on the campaign trail, by the way. If someone comes up to you and says like a crazy opinion, you don't have to disagree with it. You can put your hand on your heart and say, you know,
Speaker: A lot of people feel that way. And then you put your hand out and and then and that's that's your cue. to And now going to talk to you about public education. oh I'm going to talk to you about the Court of Criminal Appeals, the Texas Supreme Court. Oh my gosh, I love that. That's hilarious. yeah it's pretty bad I'm definitely putting that ah in my pocket. I might use that ah and at court, Maggie. about Justice, I was talking to the other judges. You know, a lot of people feel that way. I love that. I didn't say I feel that way. but there's some disat yeah Yeah, exactly. Well, speaking of that, before we get into our last segment, I want to put a plug in our Patreon. If you'd like to support us as independent media and help us to free the cost of our podcast, you can become a member for just a few dollars a month, or you can support us by giving us a five-star review and share us on social media.
Speaker: Okay, we have to wrap up this podcast, but we're going to give you guys the last word maybe in a minute or less because this is ultimately about flipping Texas for the state for your court. So what do you believe last thing you're going to leave us with to flip the state? Think of it as your last stand at the Alamo. And maybe we can go in reverse order as we started. So maybe Maggie, tell us and in a minute what do you think is going to take to flip the state like you flipped your seat back in 2018? Yeah. I think you have one job.
Speaker: If you can't knock on doors, if you can't do anything, if you can't help candidates, you can go to the ballot. You can vote and vote all the way down the ballot. Remember, the further down the ballot, the closer to your front door. So you have one job in November, and that is just to go vote, bring your friends, get out there. i really feel like we have a good chance this year.
Speaker: so And thank you all so much for this opportunity. course. And sorry, I know you mentioned earlier, 2026 seems like a it's we're on steroids here than 2018. So what are your thoughts on flipping like we did a lot of things in 2018?
Speaker: Well, in 2018, I said about the third court, if not now, then when? And that's exactly how I feel now. If not now, then when? And if you need help convincing someone to go to the ballot box, it's like, what else has to happen for you to want change?
Speaker: Because we are there and we are on the brink. And I think that For us as candidates and for other people, our job is to get people excited about the election. Not like it's this thing that's looming and it's this last stand, but just like, yes, now we get to, we could change everything about this state.
Speaker: one day and just reminding people of that and reminding people that they have that control and they hold the key to that. And so I think it gets very tempting with the, you know, like with Senate races, wherever they could talk about policies and, you know, get into the nitty gritty. And, but it's just, again, it's so much more than just those, you know, a couple races at the top of the ballot. So echoing what Justice Ellis said.
Speaker: getting all the way down to the bottom. um And if you don't know about somebody, learn about them. and but But your vote counts just as much as anybody else's vote. And do not forget about these statewide races. We are thankfully within the top 20 at the top of the ticket. So we're pretty close up there um as opposed to some folks on the bottom. So just, yeah. Are you are you better now than you were two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago?
Speaker: um But yes, if not now, then when? Excellent. All right, Holly, you're the last one. Sure. Well, I think everybody's really fired up right now when I'm talking to people. They are hungry for change and they know that it's necessary right now and that we have to make a change right now in 2026. But what I want people to understand is that our government is like a three legged stool.
Speaker: right? um The judicial branch is the third leg. And a lot of times I talk to people and they say, i don't vote on those judicial positions because I don't know everything there is to know about those candidates.
Speaker: Well, I'm going to say that if you don't vote in that third branch of government, the stool is going to fall over. The judicial branch is critical to upholding and sustaining our democracy.
Speaker: And you know something super important when you know someone's party affiliation. That is really critically important right now. And so I would encourage people to not skip those judicial races on the ballot. Understand that the judicial branch is absolutely critical to upholding our democracy and to defending our Constitution and the rule of law.
Speaker: Amazing. Well, if you want to follow any of these ladies or support them, we will put their websites and social media handles in our show notes. i want to thank you so much for joining us. And we will sign off by saying God bless Texas.
Speaker: You can follow us on all socials at Mission Texas Podcast. Email us at missiontexaspodcast at gmail.com. This episode is edited by Juan Jose Flores.
Speaker: Our music bumper is by Adam Pickerel, and our cover art is by Tino Sohn.
