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The Awe-Inspiring Journeys of Zelma Badu-Younge image

The Awe-Inspiring Journeys of Zelma Badu-Younge

S1 E5 · A State of Dance
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Season One, Episode Five: This month’s guest is Zelma Badu-Younge, Ph.D. Zelma Badu-Younge is Professor of Dance, and Director of the School of Dance, Ohio University, Athens, Ohio. Zelma Badu-Younge, one of the most charismatic cultural fusion artists, captivates her audience as she steps on stage. This mesmerizing performer is considered one of the most electrifying choreographers, with her high-energy synthesis of West African traditions combined with other world dance forms.

OhioDance A State of Dance is a six-part series coming out the fourth Friday of each month through November 2023.

This podcast is driven by the OhioDance mission to secure the foothold of dance in Ohio through increasing visibility, firming viability, and elevating the position of dance in Ohio.

In 2016, a five-person team set out on a mission to capture the achievements of persons and institutions who have shaped the intricate diversity of dance history and practice within the state of Ohio and weave them together in an easily accessible digital format. This we call the OhioDance Virtual Dance Collection. As of 2023 we have highlighted 33 individuals and institutions. The team has traveled over 5000 miles and interviewed 100 individuals in all five regions of Ohio. vdc.ohiodance.org

If you like what you are listening to and are not a member of OhioDance, you can go to ohiodance.org and click the membership button to join and receive the many benefits that come with your membership. You can also donate through our purple donate button.

Transcript

Introduction and Guest Welcome

00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to a State of Dance, sponsored by Ohio Dance and hosted by independent choreographer and interdisciplinary artist Rodney Veal.
00:00:25
Speaker
Hello, I'm Rodney Veal. I'm the host of the State of Dance podcast for Ohio Dance. I am the board president and really, really grateful host of this podcast. And today we would like to welcome our guest, Zama Badu-Young. Zama is professor of dance and director of the School of Dance at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio.

Innovative Choreography and Influences

00:00:48
Speaker
Now, Zelma, you have been described as a little brief bio of you, just your mesmerizing performer, which I know you are, and consider one of the most electrifying choreographers with high energy synthesis of West African traditions combined with other world dance forms. That is high praise indeed.
00:01:09
Speaker
Welcome, and thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for this invitation. I really feel privileged to be here, especially with Ohio Dance since I used to be on the board. So this is like coming home. And we love it. It's a total coming home. You know, we embrace everyone in the state of Ohio, and you've always been such an advocate for dance in the state, and you're doing magnificent work. I mean, I'm a fanboy, so
00:01:33
Speaker
Thank you. So let's just kind of go into that. So, Zelma, you have just truly an impressive bio. But let's start at the beginning, like we're just going into Zelma's life. You trained in Canada, the United States, and Ghana. Take us to the trajectory of how you go from
00:01:56
Speaker
consonants and choral travel to end in Athens, Ohio. I'm exhausted just listening. I mean, when people ask me that question, so what's your background? And I just sort of sit there like, I'm not sure if we have time for this. But it started, you know, I'll say I was conceived in Ghana. My mother married a Ghanaian. They met in New York at a party where they were dancing together. So I was conceived with dance.
00:02:25
Speaker
And then eventually she moved to Ghana, got pregnant with me and she was having complications there. So she went to New York. But what I believe is while I was in Ghana, I was absorbing the rhythm. She loved to dance. She was a chemist.
00:02:42
Speaker
But she loved dancing, so she would be out dancing, and I'm sure she was bouncing me in her belly. And so that was my first experience, I believe, especially if you look at it from an African perspective.

Cultural Challenges and Early Education

00:02:55
Speaker
And so then from there, because she had complications, she went to New York, which is where she was from, and I was born in Brooklyn, New York, of all places.
00:03:04
Speaker
And so many people don't know that. And so, you know, we were there long enough for me to travel back to Ghana with her. So that was the real training there because now I'm out, I'm hearing the sounds, I'm seeing, you know, people dancing in the villages, you know, as a baby. That really, I think,
00:03:23
Speaker
sort of molded me from an early age. My mother told me that I didn't really, you know, walk around when I was two. I was just dancing. I would hold on and I would start dancing, but I didn't walk. So she was kind of concerned. And then she said one day I just decided to walk.
00:03:41
Speaker
So that also sort of like kind of tells you something about my life, right? So I learned how to dance before I could walk and then that whole experience of being in Ghana for two years straight really informed me as an artist, I believe.
00:03:57
Speaker
So eventually, cultural issues, you know, my mother's American, my father's Ghanaian. Many people think just because you're Black, you'll get a long note. They didn't understand each other, and this is before they really thought about how two cultures can come together like that. So, you know, that didn't work. We went back to New York, and my mother started putting me into Little Theatre School in New York, this place in Brooklyn where we learned ballet, tap, and gymnastics.
00:04:24
Speaker
Isn't that the way it always goes? Well, it does. It seems to me that's a story that I've heard with so many people. I'm like, I never thought that with you. So I'm like, Oh, okay.

Dance Journey in Canada

00:04:33
Speaker
All right. Oh, yeah. So did those things and enjoyed it. So for from two to eight, that's what I was doing in New York. Then my mother decided that I should go back to God to get to know my culture a little bit more.
00:04:48
Speaker
So she found a job, she was ahead of a lab in Ghana, in Accra. And so there I was able to actually participate in the dancing and also watch and see how the music and the dance went together. So that was really interesting for me. And it was also a chance for me to go to a Ghanaian school. And again, I've had these reoccurring things of
00:05:10
Speaker
issues with culture and how do I approach it. So I'm going to this Ghanaian school, which I thought I would be a part of, but I was always the other because I was American. I'm black, but I'm American. So they know I'm not from there. It's a thing. Okay. So that's what happened. I was there. And then eventually we went, I was, we were there for a year and then I went back to the US, but by then my mother met a Canadian.
00:05:38
Speaker
Irish Scottish Canadian from Nova Scotia. And so they decided to get married and then we moved to Canada.

Mentorship and Transition to Modern Dance

00:05:48
Speaker
It's just as simple as that. So there we are in Toronto, and my mother, she's really big on, again, putting me into school. Always ballet, though. And she didn't have any training in ballet or any kind of dance form, so I don't know why she put me in ballet. But there I was at the National School of Ballet, where it was the first place I trained, and eventually went to
00:06:12
Speaker
in Montreal and I love those schools and I did really well. I was a true bunhead and I loved it. And so then eventually I started that mistress was used to use me to demonstrate everything. So I thought, oh, I must be one of the best in the class because she's always having me demonstrate.
00:06:32
Speaker
Then when I decided that you were about to move to the New York area, I want to, you know, go to this school performing arts. My cousins went to music and art, which was like the music version before it became LaGuardia School of the Art. And I thought, you know, I think I want to try dancing as a career. So let me, let me audition for the performing arts school in New York. My teacher said, no, you don't have a feature in dance.
00:06:57
Speaker
You're not good enough. You have bad feet. And I was crushed. So I stopped dancing. But, you know, after a while, with the encouragement of my mother, she's like, you know, you don't have to dance as a career. You dance because you love it. So I started we moved to a town called Teaneck, New Jersey. And then it's only one school in the whole town still.
00:07:18
Speaker
They had a modern dance club, so I thought, okay, well, I'll just join a modern dance club. The club was run by a track coach. She had no dance background, but she loved dance, so that sort of spilled over. We were lucky because we were only about six miles from Manhattan, so we got a lot of teachers from New York coming to teach.
00:07:40
Speaker
One of the teachers was a person who was lead dancer of Chuck Davis American Dance Company. His name is Abdel Salam. So he would come and teach and he really liked the way I was dancing. He says, you know, Zalma, I'm going to have a company soon and I want you to be in my dance company. And I thought, oh, I don't know, whatever. I don't know. You have a dance company in the future. I'm 15 years old. I don't even know what that means. But sure enough, that actually did happen.
00:08:08
Speaker
So from there, I'm thinking, where should I go to university? I auditioned different places. NYU is one of them, and I was lucky to be interviewed by Larry Rhodes. I got accepted into New York University, but then I thought, no, my mother's going to have to pay this. It's so many thousands of dollars. Do I even know what I'm going to do with it after?
00:08:28
Speaker
So I decided to go to Toronto, York University. And in Canada, they subsidize education. So I wouldn't have to pay the thousands and thousands of dollars. I think I paid like $2,000 for the year and you know, that was it.
00:08:44
Speaker
So I was there. And what's interesting, a recurring theme in my life, you know, I'm lifted up, I do well, and then something always sort of blocks me. So at that school, at York University, I was doing well there. I kind of double majored in ballet and modern. You're supposed to select one, I couldn't.
00:09:04
Speaker
So I did both. I was doing well. I was being put up levels within half a year because I was exceeding the expectations for the program. But then this one particular professor really had a problem with me. So he kind of physically abused me in the class.
00:09:23
Speaker
I don't mean like in a sexual way, but he just like was manipulating me. Like he would, for example, if he was showing it demonstrating a plie, he would stand immediately in front of me with his back towards me and pretend I wasn't there. Or he would correct me, but it was over the top to the point where everyone was tense in the class because I knew it was kind of abusive.
00:09:43
Speaker
So this is the second time something like this happened. The first one, you don't have a career in dance, you don't have it, move on. This one, you know, he actually told me, why don't you go someplace where they'll like you? It's the last word he said to me. So it was disappointing. And my mother was there to support me. Well, you know, just go to another school. I'll help you.

Embracing Contemporary Dance in Montreal

00:10:05
Speaker
And I transferred. I stayed in New York for a year.
00:10:08
Speaker
to sort of lick my wounds. And then I went to audition at Concordia University in Montreal. That was a really interesting experience in it. I loved it because it focused on choreography and contemporary dance. And there, something about me, I just say what I think, maybe too much. So this person I've grown to love, she's the former director of and founder and designer of the Concordia Dance Program. Her name is Elizabeth Langley.
00:10:38
Speaker
And she's currently my mentor still. But she made a comment to me, and this is how she became my friend, which is not usual, I think. We were doing some, you know, activities and, you know, improvisation in class, and then we were all leaving. And then she said to me, Zelma, she's from Australia.
00:10:58
Speaker
cinema, why don't you go and clean up the stuff in the studio?" And I'm like, what? And I don't know what came over me, but I had just come from New York, so I had a little attitude. So I said, and I don't actually believe all this stuff I said, but I said, my people have been cleaning up after your people for over 300 years, and I'm not doing it anymore.
00:11:21
Speaker
And she kind of looked at me and I looked at myself like, I guess I'll have to look for another school. But instead, she embraced me. She gave me the keys to her house, come anytime, you know, make yourself at home, eat whatever you want. And so that was the beginning of a friendship, which was kind of strange.
00:11:40
Speaker
She kept letting me know, oh, you know, my husband used to perform for Harry Belafonte and blah, blah, blah. So she's trying to make me feel comfortable. And so we've been friends since then and she's 90 years old and she's still dancing. She just started doing Pilates on the reformer. That is amazing. 90. So that's my inspiration and she's my mentor. You know, having a mentor who
00:12:04
Speaker
you meet in such a like this very dramatic way and it's like but yet a friendship forms like a bond and it's like a respect and love and love and I think that's really important so that's important for people to kind of know like as a dance educator so I didn't know this about you so we're learning together
00:12:23
Speaker
Now we're in Montreal and I'm doing, you know, well, they're very different because Montreal is very eccentric approach to dance.

Balancing Multiple Dance Programs

00:12:33
Speaker
You know, they want to, they're not interested in Martha Graham and Jose Limon or anything like that. They just want to create something different.
00:12:39
Speaker
And that's how Cirque du Soleil was born, right? That's from Montreal. So they're really interested in that. One of my teachers, which is very interesting, was Edward Locke. He did that film Amelia. So he was one of our professors, which is very interesting. He didn't last very long because
00:12:58
Speaker
He would have us do these assignments, which were very interesting. We would be out in the street collecting data from people, unknowing people, which is walking, which is grabbing everything, all their quality of movements and stuff like that. But then he would say, I'm off to France for about two months. So if you have any questions, call me at this French number. I'm like, who has money for that? We're all students.
00:13:22
Speaker
and eventually he got let go. You can't teach students like that. You can't leave for two months at a time, not even in a classroom setting. Wow. What I learned from him was enough for me to really think outside the box more and the different ways of approaching, creating. And they always let us just do whatever we wanted to do, whether it's bad or not.
00:13:47
Speaker
classes would be, for example, improvisation or something, or just recreated something. And, you know, typically after a fellow student has performed, everyone claps. They wouldn't allow that at that school. No clapping.
00:14:02
Speaker
because she felt that if you clap every time it starts to become a competition so that you're not dancing because or wanting to explore and create, you're just going for the applause. What's going to get my fellow classmates excited about what I'm doing beyond
00:14:19
Speaker
you know, maybe I'm creating something, maybe I'm on track, maybe I'm not, but it's up to me to find out all these things. Another thing they did there was not bringing guest artists, which I thought was interesting because they wanted us to be the guest artists. So we're always creating our own works. So even the teacher didn't create works on us. So it was a really different model.
00:14:44
Speaker
That is a very different model because usually it's that imitation of those you bring in as guests. It's like, you know, there's a sign of synthesis or sort of, it's going to kind of bleed through into you and your work. That's interesting. It's a different take.
00:15:00
Speaker
Well, I should correct myself. Maybe not guest stars within the vicinity, but we did have people like a Bhutto dancer. So if it was something like that, like a workshop to teach us Bhutto. So as you bring people in like that, but they weren't choreographing pieces for us to perform. Okay. We would just have workshops. So we would gather whatever tools or information that they taught us.
00:15:26
Speaker
and use or not use it for creating is their approach. Yeah, so very different. And mind you, the head of this department, she had no degree. She designed the whole thing. She actually left as a professor, but she never finished any degree. But she was from Australia and she was spicy.
00:15:51
Speaker
But what I learned was because at that time I was so focused on ballet, I really had a hard time integrating because I felt like I had to be strange. And I thought I was trying to do different things. I would cut my hair, dye it. I'm like, I'm trying to fit in here, but I'm coming from a ballet world. So at one point I did the dance training at Concordia, but I was also a full-time scholarship student at a Russian Academy of Ballet.
00:16:21
Speaker
school. Because well, I'm thinking, okay, I'll do the weird stuff, but I need to maintain my technique. So I was doing both programs full time. And at one point I thought, you know, I was obsessive with dance. I'm like, I've got 24 hours. So if I wake up at six o'clock in the morning, and I can swim in the pool for like 80 lengths,
00:16:42
Speaker
And then after that, I'll take all my dance classes at the university. And then after that, I'll take all the dance classes, the ballet school, which is mostly, you know, two ballet classes, maybe jazz or modern thrown in there. When I was really hyper, I started taking classes that lay ballet jazz, because I didn't like the jazz at our ballet school. And then in the evening, I would stretch in the sauna.
00:17:06
Speaker
And then start the whole cycle. Okay. At some point you do have to have a life and eat and sleep. Yes. I realized that when I ended up in the house in the hospital. Okay. Okay. I just want to make very clear that you can't sustain that.
00:17:23
Speaker
That's not a sustainable model. No, it wasn't. I strained my abdominal muscles, lots of things were happening. I was walking down to the metro in Montreal, they call it metro, and all of a sudden, my head just tilted to the side on its own. Then I thought, yeah, I think I need to stop because that's my body telling me, nope. Nope.
00:17:45
Speaker
You can't do this. So, you know, as I'm going, I'm learning lessons and I finished my degree.

Career Challenges and New Paths

00:17:51
Speaker
Now, this goes right into Philodenko. Which is, you know, a really renowned, internationally renowned company. It's a part of the International Association on Blacks and Dance, one of the founding members. What was that like? Well, it's all a fluke.
00:18:06
Speaker
Well, or maybe not. But so I was almost finished with my degree at Concordia. And at that time, my parents were living in Westtown, Pennsylvania, not far from Westchester. So it's about 45 minutes from Philadelphia. And so my mother
00:18:23
Speaker
She was always chatty, so she was speaking to someone in the bank, and they said she started talking about, oh, my daughter dances, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they said, oh, really? I work at Philodenko. I'm an administrator there, and we're having an audition coming up. So maybe your daughter would like to audition. Now, this is before I even finish school. So my mother told me about it, and I'm like, I've got nothing else to lose. So I went and
00:18:45
Speaker
At the time, you know, I'm coming from Canada, so I didn't know that much about Philaninco, so that was probably good. And so then I went to the audition. I thought I failed miserably. You know, when you're in a class and everybody is doing it the correct way, going to one side and you're the only one going to the opposite side, it's clear that you made that mistake. So I thought, okay, this is a moment.
00:19:10
Speaker
should I give up in my mind and say, yeah, you blew that. Or should I work harder and try to make them forget what they saw? I opted for trying harder and make them forget what they saw. So I did my best to make up for it. And then at the end, I walked off and I slunged shoulders like, oh, well, I tried my best. And they're running after me. Where are you going? I'm like, well, I didn't think I did for them. I was like, oh, you are the best. I'm like, after all those mistakes,
00:19:39
Speaker
That's crazy. So I said, OK. So I became a company member, but started off as an apprentice. But, you know, it was it wasn't that at that point I had been at that ballet academy. I was really strong. And for some reason, I didn't really connect. I think, you know, the culture comes back into it, you know, spent time in Ghana.
00:20:02
Speaker
you know, it was in Montreal. So I had this kind of French Canadian accent going. The director loved me because she, you know, she would go to Montreal a lot. So she loved that city. But everyone had an issue with me. They misread me because I was quiet and I'm shy, actually. So they instead thought that I was being arrogant and or they thought I was from the south side of the Bronx.
00:20:28
Speaker
for some reason. And then again, the physical thing, they would push me, like going across the floor, they would push me to the ground. And I'm thinking, what is it about me that I'm not doing anything, I'm just taking classes and working hard, you know, not bothering anyone, but there's always some case where someone's physically doing something to me. And at the time, before I understood her, the director was also sort of
00:20:53
Speaker
putting me in positions where I would feel uncomfortable. She would tell, can someone show Zelma how to do a plie?
00:21:02
Speaker
I'm not like a ballatrina here. I could do a plie. But for some reason, she kept repeating that during the class. And so I was humiliated. She would say, oh, I gave you a hard time. I'm like, why? Oh, I didn't want you to get conceited because everybody was talking about you. All the choreographers would come in like, oh, we love Zama. We want to do something with her.
00:21:24
Speaker
I didn't know any of this, so I took it personally, like, you know, she has a thing against me, but she actually really liked me. But I realized I didn't stay long. I was only there a year, mainly because, you know, we got to work with great choreographers. I don't know if you remember Lewis Johnson. He did The Wiz and
00:21:41
Speaker
He choreographed so many different Broadway shows and metropolitan opera, Leontyne Prize. He also choreographed for Aretha Franklin too. I would give him lists to this train station so he would tell me all his stories. But one time in class, in rehearsal rather, we're learning his piece, Triminisha, and he was getting frustrated and he says, I want you people to dance. It's not just technique, I want you to dance.
00:22:06
Speaker
And then he said, the only time this stage comes alive is when everyone freezes and Zelma does her solo. I knew that would be the end for me at that place because it just got really dark. So I left and then we're going to go right back to Abdel Salah. So then this man was serious. He kept contacting me, kept calling my friend. Do you know where she is? I'm still interested in her joining my company. And I'm like,
00:22:31
Speaker
Is he serious? So I thought, okay, I'll give it a shot. So I joined this company. That was for a year too. I was giving myself five years to see if I really wanted to do this as a career because at one point I was interested in medicine. So I joined the company and it's this situation again, it wasn't a very comfortable situation for me as a woman. I decided no career or company is more important
00:22:57
Speaker
than my mental health. And so if I felt like I was in jeopardy of feeling like I'm not in the safe space, I wouldn't stay there. And eventually I realized I'm going to these rehearsals and I don't see that they're doing any more or less than what I could do. So that's what I decided just to do my own thing.
00:23:16
Speaker
I love it. So we're going to get more into that and how this all leads to Ohio. So we're going to take a break and then we're going to come back and we're going to have more Zoma.
00:23:35
Speaker
We want to remind you that if you like what you're listening to and are not a member of OhioDance, you can go to OhioDance.org and click the membership button to join and receive the many benefits that come with your membership. You can also donate through our purple donate button.
00:24:01
Speaker
Okay, so we are back with Zama Badu Young and Zama, it is amazing the trajectory of your life and the experiences that you've had.

Emphasizing Creativity Over Location

00:24:11
Speaker
So talk about how your dance career led you to Ohio. How did dance bring you to specifically Athens, Ohio? That is not a place that people say that's my destination.
00:24:23
Speaker
I just I just I love Athens is it's not a this is not a dismissal of the beauty of joy. Oh, no, I didn't think that at all. But it's a small south, you know, southeastern town in the middle of, you know, my, my, my, my street has Cal crossing signs.
00:24:42
Speaker
So these experiences you're having in these international, I mean, I consider Montreal an international city in Philadelphia. I mean, you're not, we're not talking small towns. So how did that part of your journey really speak to that? I mean, well, Philip Danko really taught me a lot about, you know, me as, even as an artist. And I realized, especially with the comments that some of these other choreographers, you know, like Louis Johnson said, I thought, okay.
00:25:08
Speaker
He sees something in me, even someone from Alvin Ailey, Denise Jefferson. She used to teach company classes there and she'd always say to me, you know, Zellma, we'd really like you at Ailey. And I'm thinking, wow. And like I said, I'm a shy person, so I didn't necessarily see those things. But these are all the places that other people wanted me to be.
00:25:30
Speaker
But it's not necessary someplace I want it to be. And I realized so many people decide that they have to join a big dance company to feel worthwhile, to feel valued. And I never felt that way. In fact, that's one of the things I tell the students at Ohio University, why do you have to join somebody else's company to make you feel like you're valuable as an artist? So I mean, not that you shouldn't, but there's nothing wrong with you creating too.
00:25:59
Speaker
So after Philodenko, I left and I joined forces of nature, didn't work out, was there for a year. And then I said, okay, I know that I need to do something else. So eventually I did my master's degree in between there. And then I also did a PhD in culture and values in education. So that was another little thing, but mostly to learn about my African heritage, which supported my creative work.
00:26:28
Speaker
And so eventually I was starving in Montreal. So my mother said, come to Atlanta and stay with me for a bit. Then you're on your own. So I went to Atlanta and before going there, I sent all this information out to all schools just to get a job. I was still doing my PhD.
00:26:48
Speaker
I was just doing the research. And then eventually, I heard from one of the teachers from a land of ballet school who decided that, you know, she didn't have anything for me there but she invited me because you want to speak to me she said I really impressed by your resume.
00:27:03
Speaker
And we don't have anything here at the Atlantic Ballet, but I'm going to recommend you to a performing arts school. So this is where the connections happen. So the person that I was replacing at this performing arts school was Travis Gatling. We never met, but I was told to call him just so I could get some information about the place. And so he spoke on the phone. Then eventually he came back. And at that time, I was also teaching at Emory.
00:27:31
Speaker
So he came and take my class. So that was the only connection. And that was the beginning of the connection to Ohio University. While I was at Emory, I also met Gladys Bailen, who was invited as a guest to choreograph a piece. So we all met at this party. And I said, oh, do you know Travis Gatling? I think he works at Ohio University. She said, oh, yes, yes, yes. So that's the beginning.
00:27:55
Speaker
And then eventually, finishing up my degree, and I got married, I moved with my husband to West Virginia, worked there for a while, and I thought, you know, it'd really be nice to do a guest artist, you know, come in and do a, you know, residency someplace. So I looked up Travis's name and found his email like, oh, is there an opportunity for me to come
00:28:18
Speaker
to teach African or contemporary African dance. And since he had taken one of my classes in Emory, he said he worked on it and I got invited. And then during that residency, the director at that time, Madeline Scott, and the dean at that time told me, oh, we have a new position to teach African dance. We would like you to apply for it. And I thought, oh, okay.
00:28:44
Speaker
So I said, okay, I've got nothing to lose. I get all these things from my mother. What have you got to lose? So I applied for it, came in, did my best, and then I was able to get the position. And so that was the beginning. Actually, I should say the year before that I was at Denison working from 2002 to 2003.
00:29:06
Speaker
And then as a guest professor, and then they actually had a lot to do with me going to OUs. They were called for a reference and they said, if you don't hire her, you're crazy. That's what she told me. She told them. So I got the position at Ohio University. And what's interesting, like you mentioned, like in the middle of kind of nowhere,
00:29:27
Speaker
one of the students who I'm actually still friends with today who joined our company as Agna said, you know, you've been all these places all over the place in New York, all these big cities, why would you want to come to Athens? And I'm like, oh, gosh, that's a good question. I said, because I can do my work anywhere. I mean, what does a dancer need? You need a studio space, you need time, you need to be able to travel. To me, it was like a perfect
00:29:54
Speaker
a combination of, I believe in myself, so all I need is a place to create. And in the past, I've been inspired by this music director in Montreal. I forgot to mention, I also performed with an internationally touring choir.
00:30:10
Speaker
So Zoma, you just worked. I mean, let's just be very clear, you never just stopped. No, I did what I loved. And when you do what you love, you can keep going. So what I loved is that this is what this director taught me, not by teaching, but just by me observing him. So we had this choir. We would meet once a week, Sunday.
00:30:30
Speaker
But then we would be traveling all over the world, you know, Germany here. So I'm thinking, that's where I got the idea, I don't have to be in a particular place to create my work and travel.

Teaching Philosophy and Cultural Exchange

00:30:43
Speaker
And because OU was so remote, that they gave you that opportunity to do things just to maintain you there, right?
00:30:52
Speaker
You're not able to go and take classes every day someplace else or do a lot of things, work with a lot of people. You have to go out and do it. So that was perfect for me. So the first year I was there, Azaguna went to Taiwan, and one of the students who was
00:31:06
Speaker
at the school was from Taiwan. And I thought, wouldn't it be a nice experience for her to learn African dance? She never had experienced it. And then take her to Taiwan so she can go home and visit her family.
00:31:23
Speaker
for free. That's the way I think. So I asked her, she didn't know me from Adam, like, hey, are you interested to go to Taiwan? We have to go to rehearsals and stuff like that. You don't have to pay. You know, everything's taken care of. And so we're doing a five city tour. Are you interested? And she said yes. And she like I said, she had no experience. But what I'll do is I'm willing to work with someone who's ready to make that commitment.
00:31:48
Speaker
And that's kind of the way I've been doing things at Ohio University. I'll be walking down the hall and someone will be complaining, oh, I've never been anywhere. And I was like, do you have a passport? No, I don't have the passport. I said, get a passport and I'll take you somewhere just like that. So I've taken.
00:32:06
Speaker
you know, five students to Montreal to get that experience. I mean, just crossing the border to another country is a start. You have your passport and you experience another culture. And then sometimes they wouldn't have money to do things, so I would pay for it.
00:32:22
Speaker
So like Cirque du Soleil, I've never seen it. I don't have the money. Don't worry about it. Broadway show, this place, I don't have the money for it. Don't worry about it. Because I always believe not having money is not a good reason not to be able to, if you have a student, to do something. If I have the money, I don't need a lot, you know, a lot of times you just waste it. But if I can make an impression or give someone opportunity to experience something,
00:32:50
Speaker
This is me paying it forward. This goes back to my professor, Elizabeth Langley, give me the keys to her house, eat what you want, cook what you want, stay there overnight, don't worry. I forgot to mention when I did my PhD, she's the person who brought me into her house and said, stay here. I said, I'll pay you rent, but it's going to be sketchy. She said, don't worry, Selma.
00:33:14
Speaker
I was like, I have a show in two months. I could pay you from that money. She said, don't worry about it. And so I think when I left, I owed her $300. She said, yeah, I said, I'll pay you. Don't worry. She said, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because no one ever does. And then she gets this check in the mail like, Zama, what's this for? I said, I told you I was going to pay you back. I like to keep my promises.
00:33:36
Speaker
So everything I do, even with a Zagino, and it just so happens that Pascal, Professor Pascal Young, my husband thinks the same way. So we're constantly feeding people, especially international students who don't have enough money.
00:33:52
Speaker
We look like we're dropping food off at students' houses, things like that. A lot of the African students, they want to feel like they're part of some things that we would invite before COVID, invite them all over and have a lot of African foods and let them just have fun, things like that. So the traveling internationally,
00:34:13
Speaker
You know, we've been to different parts of Asia. We've been to Africa. You did a sort of collaboration with the National Theater of Ghana, which included the National Dance Company, the National Orchestra, Symphony Orchestra, and the National Drama Company.
00:34:30
Speaker
And, you know, it's just like it's like toys in a room. You just want to pick it up and play with it. I mean, it just is like this fearlessness of like just like, OK, like it goes back to what you said about your mom is like, well, why not? Well, why not? And so we talked about it earlier. And for folks in the podcast, it was like the year the dance director of Zagano, this notion of like culture. And you talked about it earlier. It's like, that's important. I mean, it's like there should be a cultural exploration. And I sense.
00:34:59
Speaker
from our conversation, I sense from just your life's trajectory, that we should be open to this sort of exploration. We should be open to kind of diving into bringing other cultures together because that's where the juice is. That's where the sauce is, so to speak.
00:35:18
Speaker
Oh, it's beautiful. I mean, that's why I studied dance ethnography, because I want to learn that culture through movement. And, you know, if you look at my background, how could I not embrace culture? My father's Ghanaian, my mother's American, they met in New York at I forgot they met at the UN. So that was a UN party.
00:35:39
Speaker
And I mean, they have friends of an ambassador, an ambassador would invite me over to the mansion and fix plantain for me. So I mean, getting exposed to all this stuff. And then the idea of my stepfather being Irish Scottish, you know, going to Nova Scotia.
00:35:58
Speaker
and thinking that some of these Irish songs are my culture until I got older. And I would be singing things like, all these songs and then my grandmother was trying to teach me Gaelic and I'm like, I don't know anything about Gaelic.
00:36:14
Speaker
And then also growing up in Toronto, which is very diverse. So I understood, especially when I was teaching, I realized that the students that I was teaching, you know, in either electric class or studio class, they really, I would talk about these things. I realized they didn't know what I was talking about. So that's why Pascal and I decided, let's bring the artists to the school. So that's where we started. First, we started off with the African Music and Dance Festival.
00:36:41
Speaker
We did that for 10 years, then it developed into, we did a few Nuit Blanche Athens Arts Festival to get, you know, because I felt that the community and the university artists were not connecting at all. So I thought this would be a great opportunity for everyone to kind of connect and respect and understand each other.
00:36:59
Speaker
And then we did, I had an international film festival. We also brought in a group from Switzerland to do a sort of performance. So we did, and I thought, well, they're coming here to teach, but wouldn't it be nice if they perform, and then a zagonal performance, so you have
00:37:15
Speaker
contemporary European and then also contemporary African dance on the stage at the same time. So just things that will pop into my head. I'm like, oh, let's try that. And at that time I had gone to Australia and I introduced myself to this Bangata dance company and said, oh, I'd like to go to your place and maybe do a study abroad and bring students in. Can they dance with your company? And they said, yes. And I realized most of the time
00:37:43
Speaker
We don't do things because we just don't ask. That's a powerful lesson in the fact that you're teaching it within the process, not just the four walls of a classroom or studio. You're saying, let's go into the world and just ask. My question is, do you feel like that it seems like no one ever said no? I never really thought about it.
00:38:05
Speaker
But I guess because there's enthusiasm around it, and I'm willing to do the work. And again, I see what the students are doing, and how they're fearful, and how can I give them the experience to try things. For example, this is a good example. One of the students, I grabbed her and three other students to go to Montreal.
00:38:32
Speaker
And they'd never been out the country. Actually, one of our performers never been on the plane before. And so we went to Montreal and, you know, it's a simple thing, but, you know, we went shopping, of course, and then
00:38:47
Speaker
I said, you should try that on. She said, no, it's okay. And then we went back to our condo and she said, oh, it doesn't fit. And I said, well, she says, I guess we'll all have to go back and return. I'm like, no, we're not all doing it. You are. And she was scared. But I realized she needed to do this because she, you know, sometimes they're not getting stuff like that at home to build confidence. So I said, go ahead. We'll meet you at the end. Take the bus.
00:39:16
Speaker
follow the address on your receipt. I mean, maybe that's because growing up in New York, it's simple if you're in

Overcoming Fear and Seizing Opportunities

00:39:25
Speaker
a big city. But if they're not living in a big city, maybe they're living in a farm, they don't have that experience. So then we met her at the end of the bus ride and she does this grand jeté off the bus and said, I did it. I'm like, oh my goodness.
00:39:43
Speaker
And so that's what I love seeing. You know, we take students, we were taking students as part of our company to go to Ghana to do that, like a two hour production with the top that that country has to offer in their national theater. That's a chance of a lifetime. Or I try, I listen to what the students say. One student said, oh, I always wanted to, you know, I want to be able to dance in another country and be able to still do
00:40:09
Speaker
I majored in communications too, so I want to be able to still do that. I provide them that perfect opportunity, and then they say no. So it's the fear factor. This student, she was basically being offered a position to dance with a company in Toronto called Ballet Creole, a dance form that she loved. And their communication specialist was leaving because that person danced and did the communication for the company.
00:40:40
Speaker
And he told her, just randomly, and I'm like, that's your opportunity. She didn't take it. So I realized that there has to be something that can cushion them until they can get to a point where they can make that move themselves.
00:40:54
Speaker
I, well, it's because so many people have done that for you. Right. Pushing people out of the comfort zone. And so you're a force of nature and you don't stop. So I guess my question is like, you know, what does the future hold for you? What do you, what do you plan? What are your big plans for the future?

Exploring Film and Dance Fusion

00:41:12
Speaker
I'm kind of curious.
00:41:13
Speaker
Well, you know, I've been thinking, I'm taking, you know, a chapter from my professor, my mentor's page and like, and my mother, like, maybe I'll go back to school and I'm interested in film. How can I combine the film and dance together? Hmm. That's what I'm thinking.
00:41:34
Speaker
Wow. And the thing is, I know it's going to be spectacular just because it's a thought right now. It's a fantasy. Well, you have a tendency to make fantasies into realities. So I'm less, I'm like, yeah, you're trying to tell me like, that's just a pipe dream. No, you have a way of making things happen. So, well, I should tell you one thing. Um, when I remember being with a friend of mine who's also from Ghana, oh, his background is Ghanaian.
00:42:02
Speaker
And we were trying to come up with peace, but it was four o'clock in the morning and we were laughing and giddy tired. They were like, yeah, we're going to do this and we'll put the project something like, oh, yeah, like we're laughing as we're creating this idea.
00:42:18
Speaker
And then I thought, I'm actually going to apply for a grant for that because it seems so outrageous. But I applied and then got one of the top is like something equivalent to the National Endowment for the Arts in Canada. I got this award and then I got some other ones. They mailed to me. I wasn't at the location. They mail was like sitting on the floor, me sitting on the floor for this project. And I thought,
00:42:43
Speaker
Because of that experience, I realized that it doesn't take much for this fantasy in my head to come out and be a reality. It's only me who will stop it from becoming a reality because I won't do it. That is the ultimate mic drop moment. To conclude this interview, Zelma, it has been a pleasure and a joy. So thank you for sharing your life story with us. This is amazing.

Conclusion and Reflections

00:43:08
Speaker
Thank you. And it's been a joy just sitting here chatting with you. We should have had coffee.
00:43:13
Speaker
Next time. Thank you very much. I thank Ohio dance also for this opportunity. Our total pleasure.
00:43:28
Speaker
A State of Dance is produced by Ohio Dance and hosted by Rodney Veal, executive producer Jane DiAngelo, editor and audio technician Jessica Cavender, musical composition by Matthew Peyton Dixon. Ohio Dance would like to thank our funders, the Ohio Arts Council, the National Endowment for the Arts, the Ohio State University Dance Preservation Fund, the Greater Columbus Arts Council, the Columbus Foundation, and the Akron Community Fund.