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With Brian Brodersen
57 Plays5 years ago
This time on PEP Talk, Andy and Kristi chat with pastor and teacher Brian Brodersen about your personal story, avoiding pressure, brief conversations and seeing yourself as a small step in others' faith journey.
With a history of church planting in the USA, England, Eastern Europe and the former USSR, Brian Brodersen works with the Calvary Chapel network. Today he serves as the senior pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in California. Here in the UK, Brian teaches through the "Back to Basics" programme on Premier Radio and serves as Festival Director for Creation Fest.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pap Talk at Creation Fest
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pap Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. My name is Kristy Mayer and I'm joined here by my co-host Andy Bannister. We are in the middle of Cornwall, you can probably hear a lot of background noise. We're actually in the milking shed at Creation Fest, this amazing 15,000 plus festival that happens each year in Cornwall.
Creation Fest and Brian Broderson's Role
00:00:31
Speaker
and we are joined by the wonderful Brian Broderson who is the festival director and also has many years of pastoral experience in the local church setting in California, the states at Calvary Chapel. Brian, welcome to the show.
00:00:46
Speaker
Well, thank you. It is a delight to be here. It's great to have you here in the middle of the wind and the storm that's currently sort of battling the site here. And it's been an amazing week in ministry. So I thank you for taking the time. Yeah, it's been fantastic. And I'm glad that you invited me into your working shed for this conversation.
Attendees Finding Faith
00:01:07
Speaker
Before we get into the conversation, there's so many great stories around Creation Fest, but the one I like is the story of the two guys in the festival down the road that got cancelled, that came onto site yesterday. Do you want to just share that story? Because it's just amazing. Yeah, there's a large festival just down the road in Nuki, and because of the weather, they cancelled it. And I guess the word just sort of started spreading around that there was another festival somewhere. Plus, as people just start passing by on the
00:01:36
Speaker
on the road, you know, they see all of these tents and they wonder what that is. Well, anyway, a couple people ended up at the festival and ended up being here during an invitation that was given and went for it and received Christ. So, but those kinds of things happen pretty frequently at this festival. That's one of the things I absolutely love about it. You know, it's a free festival, which attracts people just, well, it's free, might as well go in and just see what's going on.
Obstacles in Sharing Faith
00:02:06
Speaker
amazing we were hearing all about it from Sarah Yardley the other day weren't we Andy and what we'd really love to hear your thoughts on today Brian is just drawing from that vast experience of pastoral ministry that you've had and what kind of roadblocks and obstacles have you come across in the local church
00:02:25
Speaker
in terms of that people have had as they've wanted to share Jesus, but haven't been really sure how to go about that. What kind of lessons have you learned from from pastoral ministry and evangelism? Well, there's probably three things. First of all, people feel ill-equipped, they feel intimidated, they feel like they really don't know enough to talk to people, oftentimes.
00:02:51
Speaker
So what they will do, and this is a good thing, it's better if they can speak to somebody, but what they will often do is, you should come to my church, you should come and hear my pastor, that sort of a thing, because they don't feel that they're capable. So what I try to do as a pastor is make sure we're equipping people, and you don't have to know everything, and what I often tell people,
00:03:19
Speaker
I mean, start with your own story. Everybody has a story and I love, I think we have a great example of this in scripture in John chapter nine. We have this blind man. You remember Jesus healed this blind man and he ends up being hauled before the religious leaders of the nation.
00:03:38
Speaker
and talk about somebody who, you know, he's just been a couple of hours maybe since he's had this experience with Jesus. And so he's brought before them and they really start grilling him. You know, they're quizzing him, they're challenging him. And at the end, he just says, well, look, I don't really know a whole lot about what you're talking about, but this is what I know. I was blind and now I see.
00:04:03
Speaker
And a man named Jesus is the one who gave me the sight. So I just oftentimes tell that story to people who are struggling and say, look, you have a story too. You were blind, so to speak, spiritually blind, or whatever was going on in your life, Christ came into your life. So just tell people what God's done for you.
Conversational Evangelism Methods
00:04:23
Speaker
And so that helps. I think it's helpful. I think another thing is,
00:04:29
Speaker
You know, sometimes people have knowledge, but they lack wisdom and how to approach people. So you can have a lot of knowledge and you come and sort of beat somebody over the head with it and in some ways it ends up being maybe a bit counterproductive.
00:04:44
Speaker
And so we try to encourage people to be wise, to be sensitive. You know, sometimes I think in some forms of evangelism I think people are taught to just sort of go through a formula and just get the formula out there. Get it out there as quick as you can.
00:05:06
Speaker
I don't personally like that. I like more conversational. Why don't you just have a conversation with somebody? Just get to know them a little bit. Ask them questions. Find out about their background. Be sensitive to that sort of thing. And then look for that opening where the Lord might have you insert some truth that can lead to maybe a fuller conversation.
Power of Personal Faith Stories
00:05:30
Speaker
Some great advice there. You know, Brian, on that first one, about sharing your story, Christy and I were doing a Q&A here the other night, and there was a question kind of along these lines that really kind of struck me, and I just would love to get your kind of perspective on it. So I ran the whole issue of story, but somebody sort of saying, you know, look, how can I
00:05:48
Speaker
You know, how can I be an effective witness for Christ if I'm a Christian who's still struggling in certain areas? You know, they've been a Christian for a while, and like any Christian who's been a Christian for a while, there was areas where the spirit was working, there were areas where they were still struggling, and I think they almost had this idea that I can't go and share my story unless my entire life is a victorious Christian living. What would you say to somebody who goes, Brian, I'm clearly a Christian, love Jesus, but I still get issues.
00:06:08
Speaker
I say, well, the good thing is we're not really, it's not really our story. It's, it's the story of Christ. And so it's not, you know, it's not our righteousness or holiness or any, any of those things. I mean, not to minimize those things, but at the end of the day, it, the gospel is the power of God to salvation. It's not my,
00:06:33
Speaker
It's not even my presentation of the gospel. That's the power of God So I would just say to people, you know, look don't don't worry about that. We're all we're all sinners and as a matter of fact, I think our evangelism can even be more effective if we are Transparent and we just let people know that hey I don't have this all figured out and I'm not perfect and I'm not telling you that you got to figure it all out and be perfect But but you know God
00:07:00
Speaker
You know, he's ready to meet you right where you're at and that's what he did for me and that's what he's still doing for me So yeah, I think sometimes there is that sense that I have to be holier You know, I'm not really spiritual enough
00:07:15
Speaker
And when we think that way, I think we're just missing the point, that the point being the powers in the gospel itself. So just do your best to just get the simple, you know, Christ died for sinners, explain that a little bit, what that means.
00:07:37
Speaker
He rose from the dead and he lives to make intercession for you.
Initiating Faith Conversations
00:07:43
Speaker
He lives to come into your life. It's just so liberating, isn't it? It just takes the pressure off of us. And often what we're looking for is that magic bullet in the conversations that will kind of, if I say it this way, these particular words, then God will be at work.
00:08:03
Speaker
And just thinking about those kind of conversations that you are encouraging people that you know to be having, those like natural organic conversations. What would be some of the practical first steps that people could take into having those conversations? Because I imagine most people would think, oh yeah, I'd love to have a chat with somebody, but how would I even, where would I, how do I even get to know somebody who doesn't get no duties?
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's where it's important to remember that, you know, probably most people have colleagues that they work with, they have neighbors that they live next door to. We can't isolate ourselves from the world, right? We just need to be out there with people.
00:08:43
Speaker
And then I think sometimes as Christians though, I do think we just, we forget some really fundamental and basic life practices, like just how to be a friend to somebody, you know? Because I think sometimes we just get this pressure, like we think that every single person we meet, we've got to lead them to the Lord and we've got five minutes to do it.
00:09:04
Speaker
So it's awkward. So we come with
Everyday Interactions for Faith
00:09:07
Speaker
all this weird pressure and we can't just have a normal sort of a connection. So I'll give you a quick example. So this week I'm staying at a cottage. We stay at this cottage all the time. And I just met this lady in the laundry room this week and we just had a brief little chat.
00:09:25
Speaker
And then she ran into my wife and they had a little chat. And anyway, I saw her this morning before I was coming in. She just wanted to talk a little bit. She's from Toronto, by the way. And she just said, well, I went by that festival and I saw what you guys are doing. And you know, it wasn't a moment where I was going to say, well, listen, can I give you the
00:09:46
Speaker
in the Romans Road or the four spiritual laws. But, you know, she was intrigued. She was wondering what it was about. And I was able to just say, well, you know, this is you're still here today. The festival is still going on. I want to invite you to come over because I can tell she was intrigued by it, you know.
00:10:01
Speaker
And that kind of is the point that I wanted to get to. When I used to live in London and we did street outreach regularly in Leicester Square was our main place to go just because of the numbers of people there. But I would always encourage our team, look, we're going to go out today and this is what I want you to think of. Your objective today
00:10:22
Speaker
is really to bring a person just one step closer to Jesus. Now for some people that one step is going to bring them right into the arms of Jesus. For other people that one step they're still going to be a ways away but at least they took a step further.
00:10:39
Speaker
So, because I think if we go out with this pressure that we have to convert somebody, I think that just makes it way more complicated. It takes away the joy of it. It puts you under this burden and you end up at the end of the day probably feeling guilty because you really didn't succeed. But if your objective is to just bring somebody one step closer to Christ, well, because
00:11:03
Speaker
And you know, that's just based on the idea of Paul, the Apostle said this in writing to the Corinthians, right? That one plants, one waters, God makes it grow. So some of you are planting a seed. Some of you are watering a seed that somebody planted a long time ago. But at the end of the day, God's the one who makes it grow. So I would just try to encourage the team with that. And I found that people who were apprehensive about going out and doing street evangelism,
00:11:32
Speaker
That took the burden off of them and they were ready to go. I can have a conversation with somebody and I can just hopefully lead them one step closer to Jesus.
Intentional Interactions with Non-Believers
00:11:42
Speaker
I think the other thing I like about that advice, Brian, it also helps us think about how can we use just very brief encounters with people. I love the story of the lady in the laundry room. I had a similar one this morning actually. I was out loading the car. I was at the cottage this morning. Got chatting to a guy walking his dog. Turned out he was a neighbor a few doors down and sort of, you know, the usual why you're here. And I mentioned Creation Fest and he was like, oh yeah, I've seen that festival here in recent years. He said, I came in here to go sometime. My neighbor went a couple of years ago, really enjoyed it.
00:12:08
Speaker
And so I just said, you should come. I said, whether you've got a faith or no faith, that's something for everyone. And then it was great. He was like, whoa, I mean, is it expensive? I went, it was free. He went, really? I went, yeah. So I said, I'm going to go. I'm going to take the kids next year. But I guess if in my head had been right, I've got maybe 45 seconds I'm going to get there. Just keep it light. And he's gone away having a conversation with a Christian that hopefully
00:12:28
Speaker
been touched yeah because I believe you know and I think you guys believe this as well you know salvation is of the Lord unless you know no no one can come to Jesus unless the father who sent me draws him so I am trusting that I'm just
00:12:43
Speaker
I'm just one piece in this puzzle that God is putting together. So this lady that I mentioned that I had the conversation with this morning, I can tell she's very intrigued by this. She's very interested and I just figured, okay, maybe this is the first step. Ironically, she's from Toronto. She's lived in this country for years. She's married to an Englishman.
Finding Evangelism Opportunities
00:13:07
Speaker
And she had a brother who worked in Costa Mesa, California, the place that I live. So it's like, how does this happen? Studied on a farm in Cornwall, talking to a lady from Toronto who's married to an Englishman who had a brother who worked in Costa Mesa, California, where I live in pastor.
00:13:28
Speaker
Here's a question I wanted to ask you, Brian. We've talked about perhaps, you know, people who are perhaps sort of nervous about having conversations. You have some advice there. The other thing that interests me that I sometimes come across, you're a pastor of many years experience. I sometimes come across folks who are pastors, ministers and clergy who sort of share that they're struggling slightly because you can, through Christian ministry and work very hard in Christian ministry, if you're not careful, you could end up not having any Christian friends. Could you put all your life into the church just surrounded by Christians?
00:13:54
Speaker
Are there any things that you've learned over the years about, as a minister and a pastor, how you also make sure that you stay connected with non-Christians? How do you do that as a leader? Yeah, and that's a real challenge and it's a real thing that people in ministry sometimes get so isolated from the rest of the people in the world. And particularly pastors are people who learn full-time ministry because you spend so much of your time around
00:14:21
Speaker
other believers. And I've had times where I was like, I just got to get out of this church. I got to go see like, I got to go see a center. I mean, we're all centers, but you know, I got to go find a center. Yeah. So for me personally, um, over the years, I've, you know, I, I grew up in the surf culture. I'm a surfer. Um, there's plenty of people out in the water who don't know Christ.
00:14:50
Speaker
You don't know anything about the gospel. So in the surf world, that's always been a place for me to kind of just connect with people. But thankfully, America, Starbucks came along and created these spaces. And then, of course, every other coffee person in the world came along after them to create all these super cool spaces where people want to go and just hang out. So I don't spend a whole lot of time in my office. I spend most of my time out
Mission-Oriented Lifestyle
00:15:19
Speaker
of my
00:15:19
Speaker
office in coffee shops in places where other people are getting to know the employees getting to know the people there and just through those kinds of things looking for opportunities to you know speak to people about the Lord ultimately and again you know sometimes it's something that happens
00:15:36
Speaker
Within a five minute encounter and sometimes it's five years I've been going into the same place and somebody finally says you know Can I talk to you about something and then you get the opportunity to share but but to your question Eddie I think we have to be intentional we have to
00:15:54
Speaker
We have to be out because those encounters, I know for me, they sharpen me. They keep me tuned up spiritually. And if I go for a while without having like a real encounter, you know, with an unbelievable, I really get an opportunity. I just feel kind of dull.
00:16:11
Speaker
And I was like, man, I need one of those moments and I travel a lot. So thank God a lot of times in my traveling, I will have, you know, sit next to somebody on a flight or, you know, meet somebody in a place that I hadn't been before or something like that.
00:16:27
Speaker
I think evangelism can be one of those things that we can't mentalise, don't we? This is the day that I'm going to go and think about this properly and I'll do that. And it sounds like what you're saying is more cultivating a mission or lifestyle, is that right?
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, and for me, that's kind of where I am at. Now, I know that God uses all kinds of people in all different kinds of ways. I mean, I see some people evangelizing and I cringe, but then people come to the Lord. So I'm like, okay, I wouldn't have done it that way.
00:17:01
Speaker
You know, God used it. So for me personally, I feel like a more missional approach is more suited for me. And I try to impart that to the congregation as well. You know, I don't like the idea of obnoxious Christians running around shouting at people and things. You know, I'll tell you a quick story. When we lived in London, we, Cheryl and I, one day we were walking through Leicester Square and there was a little lady out in the middle of the square with a bullhorn.
00:17:31
Speaker
And she was shouting to everybody, you're going to hell. You're going to hell. And we looked at each other and thought, oh, gee, Lord, help us. So I walked up to the lady and I said, hi, how are you doing? You're going to hell. You're going to hell. I said, no, no, wait a second. We're Christians. And we just wanted to take a minute and talk to you. You're going to hell. You're going to hell. So I said, OK, well, I guess we'll move on from here. But I thought, sure.
00:18:00
Speaker
Boy, this is, you know, people are walking by thinking, okay, another one of those nutter Christians. So I don't want to be that person and I don't want people in my congregation to be that person. So I tried my best to train people. You know, a lot of it is just be a human, just be a normal person, you know? But one thing we absolutely have to say is Jesus said that
Spirit-filled Witnessing with Joel Turner
00:18:26
Speaker
the Holy Spirit will come upon you and you will be witnesses to me. So we can never miss that vitally important factor that we have to be filled with the Spirit and I think I just listened to Joel Turner and the very end of his message was on evangelism and he basically just talked about I get up in the morning and I put on the armor of God so to speak and I asked the Lord to fill me with the Spirit and to lead me to somebody that I can share Christ with today
00:18:56
Speaker
And Joel's really an evangelist, you know. I don't consider myself so much an evangelist, more of a person who I do evangelism. But Joel is, I mean, I'm hanging out with Joel and I'm like, oh man, I feel like such a loser evangelist. Joel is preaching to everybody, leading people to Christ right and left. But it's partially a personality thing too, I recognize.
00:19:19
Speaker
But the power of the Spirit and the power of the Spirit manifest himself differently through different people. Right. That's right. Sometimes it's a soft, gentle approach and sometimes it's a Joel Turner approach.
Mentorship and Learning in Ministry
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's helpful advice there, Brian, as you come to a close actually as well, because I think, you know, finding people that you can learn from, whether you've, I love the fact that you've been in ministry for, or I don't say how long, for a while.
00:19:44
Speaker
And you're still learning from others. There are some of us around the table have been in ministry for much less time, and we're learning from others. And I think that's always a good principle in the body of Christ. Find people who you can be mentoring, who you can pour something into. Find people you can look up to and go, I can learn something from you. Yeah, yeah. And I'm learning from both of you. And I'm looking up to... Well, I kind of look down on Andy because he's shorter than I am. But apart from that, I look up to him in other ways.
00:20:12
Speaker
And on that note, I think we will try to close. Brian Bredesen, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for the take of the time and thank you for all of you listening. Again, I apologise for the background noise, the rain and the wind and the chaos of being here at Creation Festival. It's been an amazing week and I hope you've enjoyed the show. Until next time, goodbye folks.