Ep. 7: Owen Goltz – Water Is Life

Transcript

Speaker: It started ah a passion and ah and a crusade to look at what was wrong with farming. and The last thing he said to me on the way out, wound down the window of the truck and he said, you know Owen, he says you got a mighty fine crop of thistles there. And he drove away. There was obviously a reduction in the quality of food even back in the 1800s. I tried to correlate that with human diseases that were happening. I just started looking at totally outside of the box and that gave me a fairly good concrete base to be able to go forward. I just realized that where we had come from

Speaker: was not the way that we needed to go forward, and said, so I'm a farmer, I grow food, what do I need to do to make these people healthy? In certain crops, it may make sense that that you need to put the plow in, but plowing destroys the biology. Plowing and disturbing the soils, every time that soil dries out, you've just eliminated all your best friends that are gonna help you make that crop more nutritious and grow, and water is the key.

Speaker: this podcast is dedicated to making our world better and your business more successful.

Speaker: Hello, this is another episode of the Regenerative Design Podcast and today we have a very special guest. His name is Owen Golds and Owen is a farmer ah farmer at river Riverdale Farm.

Speaker: And what is truly amazing about Owen is that he has such a deep understanding of of the soil, how nature works. So I'm very excited to dive very deep into that today. His main slogan is water is life. I love that. And we will dive into that. So Owen, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? Oh, it's great. It's a real pleasure to be here. Um, yeah, I look forward to our talk. It, uh,

Speaker: it's a great It's something that i'm I guess I've been told I'm pretty passionate about. All I can say is, let's get into it. I think it's going to be a fun fun time this morning. It's morning in my time. yeah Exactly. Owen, just tell me a bit more about where all of this journey started. were Give me a bit more of your backstory.

Speaker: So um I guess I'm a second career farmer. I i've lived my whole life in a farming community. um My grandfather was farmers and my great grandfather is for farmers here in Canada.

Speaker: um It skipped the generation ah and But I've always had this desire to go back to to farming so I sold I was in the tree care business for quite a while and I sold my business in 2008 to go into agriculture and I really I just I thought how hard can farming be? um And I turned out to be a lot harder I basically went from from making about $13 ,000 Canadian a week in the tree care business to making $13 ,000 a year in farming. And I realized that was an eye opener. And I realized that I didn't really fit into conventional agriculture. And at the same time, I didn't really fit into the organic idea of out farming.

Speaker: So I i struggled ah for two years and I realized that this wasn't wasn't part of the economic package that I thought I was getting into when I retired. And and then one day I was ah so frustrated. I was basically picking thistles out of a field and I tried to hide in this field. I seen this truck come down the driveway And it was a dusty day and I was in the middle of this of this bean patch and I was just picking thistles after thistles after thistles After after cultivating a field that hadn't had any any cultivation for years. It was hay and this guy um

Speaker: And I and I said if I just hide here in the field He won't see me because I knew who it was. It was my neighbor my neighborhood farmer um From two concessions over and I said if I just hide here, he won't see me but sure enough he stopped in the ah and right by the row and I was out literally about 400 feet into the field and he started walking and I just pushed my head down and I said oh if I don't look up at him, I won't see him and um He won't see me and I won't see him and he got closer and closer and closer and and Then he stood up. I looked up at him and I was literally crying. I had a meltdown in the field and

Speaker: And I couldn't believe it. And he just put his arms out to give me a hug. And he gave me a hug. And he yeah he says, I got something for you. And this is where it all started. And I walked back to the truck. And he gave me a book. I ah usually keep it here right close to me, but it's actually upstairs in my in the bedroom. And it was called The Plowman's Folly, written in 1954.

Speaker: and And he gave me this book and he said, you know from our talk last week He says I think you might want to read this book and it started um It started a passion and ah and a crusade to look at what was wrong with farming and the last thing he said to me on the way out he you and you Wound down the window of the truck and he said, you know and he says you got a mighty fine crop of thistles there and he drove away and and I read that book and

Speaker: And that was that was the beginning of this journey. so And then from there, it was just um understanding and meditating and sitting in nature and really, really, really looking at what happens with nature. And then the long story was, is I was sitting there, and and i was because I was a tree climber, I was watching nature from above and below,

Speaker: And I was just so blown away that there wasn't anybody putting money into the forest, into our garden area. And our garden is surrounded by woodlots. And I just said, wow, look at that. Everything dawned on. Everything is working in in sync. there's just It's working so beautiful. and And not one person is adding any pesticides, any fertilizers, anything. and And I thought, that's how I got a farm, zero budget. And I called it Zero Budget Natural Farming in 2016.

Speaker: um I guess about 2014, 2016, I called it Zero Budget Natural Farming. and And I just realized what we had to do was just to really observe nature um and try to observe it without any any distractions, without any motive, without any purpose, but just to watch and to observe nature.

Speaker: and and then farm within those observations. And that's what we've been doing probably for the last, I know it's 2016, but 2014 and on. and And what a difference it's made in in our bottom line and in the quality of our life and in in the quality of the food that we've been able to grow here on the farm.

Speaker: Wow, I really love that that story. I think that's amazing how how everything started from from you and and basically in the and the deepest or the most difficult moment of that time in your life.

Speaker: ah A kind of meltdown as a farmer, this is something that's not often talked about amongst the the farming community, maybe even in general in the and the male community, that this can happen when you're like working day and night, you think you're doing it in the way that everybody is doing it, so it should work.

Speaker: but then it doesn't, you get frustrated and yeah, and thank you for sharing that beautiful story. Now, the book that you got from from your neighboring friend, can you can you talk a bit more about it and what your key findings are from it and maybe more specifically to your farm? The plow and folly was the look at the plow as the most um plowing fields, as the most detrimental to the health of the soil.

Speaker: And it was written in 1954. There was 200 ,000 copies printed. It went into a second printing. It was one of the most controversial books ever written in agriculture in 1954 because it basically said that plowing your fields is the worst thing that we can do. And it looked at his experiments that he was doing basically in a zero till to no or very, very light tillage. And there's the results that he was getting and it just kind of went through that. and i

Speaker: ah I don't want to butcher the name, but it was Edward Faulkner, I believe is his name, that wrote that book. And it just set a really good concrete base on where to go. And from that, what I had to do is I actually had to look in in the rear ver mirror to see where we had come from agriculture.

Speaker: um to where we had to go and so the next um next year and a half I just looked at everything that agriculture produced in books and literature prior to 1954 and then realized that while there was a lot of things that was happening back in the late 1800s there was obviously a a reduction in the quality of food, even back in the 1800s. I tried to correlate that with human diseases that were happening back in then. um I just started looking at at ah totally outside of the box um way of looking at farming and educating. And that gave me a fairly good concrete base to be able to go forward. um And I had no idea where I was going to go and forward. I had no idea what I was going to do.

Speaker: I just realized that where we had come from was not the way that we needed to go forward. and and And then that connection with nature, and then that just changed things. And then what we realized in our farm community that I live in, and I live in a small village, is that when we had more and more sick people coming in the village, and I ended up um meeting a a bunch of healthcare care specialists at the coffee shop and they were talking about, oh, this person should do this and they should eat this and they need this and this and this. And I kind of pushed myself into that conversation and said, so I'm a farmer, I grow food. What do I need to do to make these people healthy?

Speaker: And we realized that human health is not just your food. There's a lot more involved, but it was it was the start of growing food for people that had diabetes that were in the beginning of stages of cancer or the kids were where' ho are super high hyper. um So we ended up just ah um going through a process on the farm of of evaluating your your illness and making sure that it was a family decision, not just an individual decision. We realized really quickly that you know if you're fighting diabetes, ah yeah the kids can't eat pizza. So it had to be a real family decision to come in and buy produce from the farm um towards the later stages of of our ah our farming community or farming practice here.

Speaker: And that made ah made it a lot easier for somebody to to deal with diabetes. It made something, especially, and some of the other diseases, heart disease, cholesterol, all these things we just kept dealing with. And all we were trying to do is provide the best possible food for those for those um people. And then in conjunction with that, then we started showing them how to cook food, and then we had There was exercise programs developed by other people. We had a fitness coordinator, um an osteopath. And then at the very end, we actually had a legitimate doctor, an MD, come in. and And he was really surprising because he said, you know, we only get seven hours of training.

Speaker: in becoming a doctor in nutrition. So I thought, wow, how could you possibly be a doctor? So anyways, it just that's where we are right now. That's amazing. like I want to talk more about the health aspect. But before we dive into that, I want to talk more in depth about, just for our audience to understand, why is it such a bad thing to to plow or to do a lot of plowing?

Speaker: So plowing, that's an interesting thing. so we and I just just want to add what i really amazed me is what you said about the fact that we don't necessarily have to keep doing what's been done for a very long time because I get this argument a lot that ah have we've been plowing since 2000 years or basically since the start of ah farming but maybe it's not even correct and why should you keep doing something that has been done for such such a long time. like Slavery used to be part of something that was done for a very long time. There's no need to continue doing that. so Just wanted to add that. so Go ahead and and explain more about why plowing is is not the best thing to do.

Speaker: so That's a good question or a good observation. Plowing has its place in the farm. why whether you I don't agree with farming or plowing every year. year after year after year, but I think in certain crops it may make sense that that you need to put the plowing, but plowing destroys the biology and that's where where where we are. We are focused on the driving force in our farm is biology and plowing and disturbing the soils, um breaking up the the fungal hyphae, exposing that that soil to the sun, drying it out. Water is life, as you said. Every time you dry that, that soil dries out, you've just eliminated all your best friends that are going to help you make that crop um more nutritious and grow. it and And water is the key.

Speaker: If there's one thing that I can't stress, it's just how important it is to manage water, but not with water in the in the fields. and And when you plow that field and it sits there for five or six or seven days in the hot blistering sun, it's not only releasing carbon breaking down, but it's releasing water. And that's what keeps your biology alive. um And that's the system that we really focus on, is is that we we everything ah so I'm not saying that chemistry isn't important, but chemistry doesn't drive our systems anymore. Its biology drives the system. It provides the suppression diseases and insects. It provides the nutritional requirements for those plants, and that rap nutritional requirement comes from that predator -prey interaction among the biology.

Speaker: in the soil. um So those nutrients that are being picked up are are from that predator -prey and interaction. Can you explain that a bit more, the predator -prey? so Yeah, so the predator -prey interaction is basically um you'll have predatory bacteria eating but um other bacteria, and when and when they eat each other,

Speaker: um They're either pooping them out, pooping out the nitrogen, pooping out magnesium the the calcium, the zinc. ah You have protozoa eating other microbes and when they do that, they get full just like we do when we eat. and Just imagine if you eat too much pizza or drink too much beer, ah what happens to you? You extrude it.

Speaker: Um, there's death happening. It's, it's a, I wouldn't say it's a, it's a, in today's terms, it would be a ah war. Um, but it's about, but it's, it's a, it's a balance of, of all these different microbes working together, eating each other, uh, growing, dying naturally.

Speaker: and and that's where you're going to get your organic matter coming. And what's feeding all that, which is the key, is is the photosynthesis which is occurring in the leaf, which is that when photosynthesis occurs, it takes that carbon dioxide and water and it And in that reaction in the leaf, it produces that sugar that is going to be excreted out through the root system. That sugar that's going out into the soil is feeding those microbes within the very, very, very close proximity. Think about it as sweat on your body when you're out working, you're sweating.

Speaker: and that water is is the purpose of that sweat is to cool you down well in plants that sweat is to feed the biology to keep it close to the to the root system so it can grab and pick and and and and find what nutrients it needs in order to grow. and it's it's very it's ah We're making it very simple here, but that's probably the best analogy I can say. And and when you're plowing that field and you've taken that crop off, you you're basically either going to dry out your biology

Speaker: or you're gonna starve your biology. And and so yeah it's a double -edged sword. so um So what we do is we've, for the last five years, um we've had beds that have zero till, and I'm talking, there's no tillage on it. We plant right on the surface. We have other beds. Tell me a bit more of what you're growing on on these beds. They're mostly vegetables. So yeah we draw about 64 different vegetables here any given time, um not all at the same time.

Speaker: So we put our our vegetables are in rows. They're about, I guess, 36 -inch rows. They're about 300 feet long. They have grass in between it. We keep grass in between the rows for a reason. um And then those beds are, the first one is zero tillage. The second bed is is two -inch tillage. And then we have a rototiller. And then it just keeps going along. Next one is zero, two -inch rototiller. And we just keep going across. I think we got 12 beds in total.

Speaker: and so And then what we do, the challenge for us is to rotate our crops. It could be lettuce, it could be potatoes, garlic, corn, um any of the brassicas. And then the challenge is to grow potatoes in a zero um till bed. And can you do it? and Well, yes, you can do it. Is it it's is the yields good? Yes, it's it's fine. we We don't lose anything.

Speaker: um um And we grow almost 90 % of our vegetables are direct seeding. So our tomatoes are direct seeding. um The only thing that we don't do direct seeding is um onions. um If we're doing it from seed, we can use bulbs.

Speaker: um ah some of the eggplants ah and some of the peppers. And I think, oh yeah, sweet potato slips. um We start in the in the greenhouse because we used to do about 10 ,000 bedding plants and we found that that was a lot of work, especially at this time of the year. There's water and there's heat considerations. There's all kinds of things.

Speaker: to keep but i managing. And since we've we've gone to a direct seeding, we have stronger plants, um less diseases, way less diseases or pests. And the reason I think that is, is because that bedding plant, when you stick that seed into that little um

Speaker: I guess planter box it that seeds that root comes out of that seed and I think it I have I don't know if this is true but I really think it's limited very quickly by the the amount of soil in that plug and then the then the plant starts to grow the top part starts to grow with the limitation of what's what soil volume have in that plug and and then And what from my experience is when you take that plug out and you put it in the soil, into the garden, it sits for two weeks sometimes or 10 days trying to figure out ah like, where am I? What's the new volume I got to deal with? And once it figures out that, then it starts to take off.

Speaker: So if you drex seed, the roots go into that into that soil and it says, wow, I got a huge ah huge volume of soil here. So we can just start to grow without any interruptions and and that works out the best. now we have a technique to do that, um but especially with tomato plants. But tomato plants, for just just so you have an idea, is that we cut these plastic rings that are about maybe 12 inches in diameter. We place five to six seeds into that ring so we know where the tomato plant is. And then we we see who comes out the strongest, the other four

Speaker: if they do seed out or most times they do, but whatever plant is the strongest stays. The other four plants, unfortunately, um get cut off. We don't pull weeds in our gardens. um We actually try to cut as many of them off at the surface to keep that root mass, to keep the the the soil from being disturbed too much from pulling the weeds out. um And that root system eventually it become the organic matter in the soil. so kind of a not It sounds like a lot of work, but actually it's less work than you think. We actually spend less time. Our gardens used to be bigger than what they used to be ah when we were tilling them and rototilling them. Our gardens were one to two acres in average, and now our gardens are

Speaker: very very small very very productive and take on average just about eight hours a week eight to ten hours a week in maintenance and that's maintenance is basically um weed management and cutting the grass in between the rows the The reason that we keep the the grass in between the rows is one is I'm six foot two. And when I'm picking beans, I like to spread out um my legs and knees. And I was damaging a lot of beans when we did row after row after row.

Speaker: um So I thought, you know what, I'm going to have a grass row so I can get the carts down, pick up the beans, get them to the the wash station efficiently without doing any any damage to the crops. ah The beds are the same width as the track in between the distance between the tractor tires. So that makes a big thing. But the the idea about the grass in between the beds was about ah maintaining moisture and biology.

Speaker: and One thing you have to realize about a biology system is that there's very few ah microbes that actually um can swim. And the only one that I'm aware of that actually can swim in water is ah is an emotote. Most of your biology flows with the water. So if you have grasslands in between or vegetation in between your rows,

Speaker: ah It allows the the microbes to flow um horizontally, and that's the other thing about water. Most people think water flows up and down, but the majority of the water, groundwater, flows horizontally. So the idea is to be able to bring the biology from the grass areas as the water moves and as the and it's about the way we water. um So as the grass gets wet and as the beds are, depending on the size of the bed, the idea is to increase the community of microbes. that So as the water flows left or right, it flows into the beds rather than then

Speaker: um having it dried out. So that's the kind of the theory behind that and it's so far it's worked out extremely well. I i think the only problem, well I know the only problem we have with growing vegetation between the beds is the the possibility that depending on the type, ah certain types of grasses, legume, or not legume, but um Crabgrass grows, can grow in. So sometimes we have to physically remove that crabgrass at the edge. So it doesn't actually grow into the bed. So it's kind of that's ah that's a pretty fast way of farming, but. That's incredible. And then I love the eight to 10 hours a week of maintenance. that That is incredible because this is what most farmers are afraid of, right? To go into that transition of stepping away from the chemicals is like, how am I going to manage

Speaker: by weeds. Now, what do you think is the key advice to to farmers who want to start going into that direction? um What is the key?

Speaker: okay so i would wow ah There might be several keys, but I'm just trying to figure it out. So the way that we've been doing vegetables, we are slowly pushing over into corn and soybeans. So this this system won't have necessarily grass in between it, but we are doing cover crops or intercropping.

Speaker: um with other bigger farmers. So I'm now working with farmers in the five to a thousand acre farms and most of them are certified organic. So that's easy for i that's an easy transition for me. um the I think the key there is you have to if you're not sure about what you want to do, you need to experiment. And that's the When I looked at my grandfather's diaries, they always seem to have ah a section in this diary book where they did something new. They were always trying something new. They were always trying to make it better. And and I would say that's the key. It doesn't matter what system you use or what method you try out for the first time, but you need to take a part of your farm.

Speaker: and and try it and and work and and when I walk and I Guess the biggest problem I have or not the biggest problem The biggest challenge is on my farm is that I can walk 20 feet and be in a different soil And I think every farmer can say that pretty well, so you got to get off you got to touch it You got a you got a you got to physically walk your fields to see what's there in my opinion And then figure out what can I do? And if you're in bigger fields, um, we do a lot of testing. So we use a lot of bricks, we use a tissue testing. And so what we're always doing is, is visually looking at that plant, seeing what is really happening there and testing it. That what we think is a healthy plant, it looks healthy, testing it against an unhealthy plant in the same field and, and seeing what's missing. And, and that's how you start, I would say.

Speaker: But I think in biology, um it's about reintroducing biology. And so we're a big fan of using liquid compost. And when I say liquid compost, liquid compost comes in basically as an extract, which is where we're basically generally washing the microbes, the minerals and the compounds from the compost into a liquid and applying it immediately onto the crops.

Speaker: And where i would say compost brewing is we're again washing out those microbes you know minerals and those compounds and this is where i am so excited about compost and then we're yeah um because those compound those compounds and then we're taking those um

Speaker: elements and we're we're adding them to an aerated water source, again water is life, and then we're trying to grow those in a higher population within 12, 24, 48 hours and then reapplying them um back onto the crop as both as a suppression for diseases as a way to increase yield and growth um and And some of that is also um applying those microbes back to the to the soil and letting that to predator -prey interaction play out naturally. um And I have no idea what we're what microbes are were doing in there. we have ah We're following a protocol in and making compost um by david and and David Johnson and Sue, a bioreactor.

Speaker: We've kind of modified their system a little bit that works the best in our farm. So we know, all I know is with compost, the biggest awareness for us is the longer you can let your compost compost. So we let our compost, um we we keep it in a static um environment for over a year. And we find that that's where we get the greatest diversity and population of microbes. And during that process,

Speaker: We are taking microbes from our indigenous soils around the farm and applying them into the compost. So so we're taking, we go out into as many different healthy ecosystems that we have on our farm. We take a shovel full.

Speaker: of dirt, ah usually trying to get as many roots as possible. And we're either using that in our extracts, but we're also adding that into our compost tile um piles so that those microbes can grow and help break down are our farm waste. So pretty simple. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah.

Speaker: and it yeah so Yeah, I have to say that that's something incredible, and I got to experience it on on Owen's farm. I was there last year, and he showed me all of his equipment. it's It's relatively simple, but you have to know how to do it. But then once you start applying it, it has such a great impact. And I also love what you say. like We don't really know what's happening, but because the the the soil complex system or or a healthy soil is such a diverse and complex complex system,

Speaker: that we don't know exactly what happens because like the research hasn't even shown what how everything works in depth. like We know more about all of the universe around us than what's happening under our feet. But what you do know is that it has massive impact on the health of your crops, on mitigating other aspects of the farming business. So I really love to see that and I want to see that more on other farms.

Speaker: now related to these the compost the liquid compost. like what is one of the but or Let's say what are the essential ways to apply it because there's a lot of people doing it. Some are skeptical about it. Is it really working? like There seems to be a lot of confusion ah out in the field. Tell me what what is the key in in having success with this?

Speaker: OK, so again, ah there's ah there's a couple of things. So we have a lot of researchers come to the farm and they, like yourself, go, you can't do that. And we're saying, yeah, we can do that because nature provides if we just give it the opportunity.

Speaker: So the idea about liquid compost, liquefying compost, it really comes down to the quality of the compost. And and and that's just one aspect. And that's why we're looking, instead of using compost that's maybe 35 or 40 days old, I'm not saying that doesn't have biology in it. What we do know is that that the selection of biology and the diversity of biology and the population of biology increases dramatically the longer it sits.

Speaker: and And I think we're compost has mostly been used as as a way to um as another source of nutrition and from a mineral perspective. And I think that's the that's the that's the third thing on our list that we're using it for. We're we're looking at the way of increasing not only the biology,

Speaker: ah spectrums in the soil, but on the actual leaf itself, because we know that there's a whole microbiome on the leaf, on itself. And and then we're looking at when these microbes ah are in the composting system, and when they get to a certain stage, and that and that stage is both not only diversity um but But population, they start, they call it quorum sensing, and it's like a quorum, so you need a certain amount of people to be at the board to make a decision. But in composting, what happens is these these microbes start to interact, and they start to build other compounds. So they start to build amino acids and polysaccharins, well, i' not polysaccharins, but ah other compounds um that the plant can use

Speaker: almost immediately and use very little energy to be picked up. And it's these other component compounds that we see as the big benefit in using liquid compost, provided the compost is old. And and and so then we're reapplying them to the to either the leaf or we're doing it as a soil drench. um you know Sometimes for us in our greenhouses, it's it's just ah basically a watering can.

Speaker: that we water down. um It can be a small pump. There's a little bit of thing to be worried about pump. You want a diaphragm pump to keep as much life as possible. We're putting it on, we're modifying right now 120 foot boom on a massive sprayer ah for a thousand acre farmer. So it it doesn't, the size of the equipment is whatever you have on the farm right now is probably um can be done.

Speaker: You don't need to buy anything. can You can make this stuff in a simply five -gallon pail, depending on ah on the um the size of your farm. you know At 20 gallons, we'll probably do two acres of vegetables, no problem, of of either compost tea or compost extract. um And then I would say the last and the most important missing piece of that is the water. you got We use rainwater. so ah Anytime we see a failure in compost tea, the first thing I always do is do a a water test. I tell the farmer, gotta do look let's look at your water. It's the probably the biggest

Speaker: wild card that we have, because water comes from, if you're using a well, water or pulling it from a pond or pulling it from a stream. But if I have the choice, I take rainwater. Excuse me. And that works, that it's water mixed in with compost, rainwater. And the second thing that we look at ah in the Not so much in the extract, is but the second least problem may be the quality of compost, but in the brewing process, it's about oxygen. You want to keep the oxygen levels up in the tanks. so We have an oxygen tester, so we test the oxygenu um the diff defeat the oxygen levels in our water tanks to make sure that we have sufficient oxygen to support the biology that we're trying to grow.

Speaker: Yeah, that's incredible. I really love that this is such an important step in improving the biology of your farm. And one thing that stood out for me is that most conventional farmers focus on the chemistry, so they they will spray nitrogen, they will spray all sorts of chemicals that the plants do need, but oftentimes Only a very, very small percentage of the of what they spray can be taken up by the plants because there's no biology. right so yeah and Because the soil is becoming less and less healthy because of other uses of other chemicals, they have to keep adding more and more and more each and every year to have the same effect. so it's like ah

Speaker: at that end street whereas in in your system you don't even have to spray it additionally because it's already there in the in the soil and the biology makes it available for the plants. That's the one of the key things I think in this way of farming is that you make so much more nutrition or nutritional elements available for the plants. And then that reflects in the health of the plant, it won't be attacked by insects, it will have way better harvest, than the nutritional value of what you're harvesting will be so much better. So I think that is that is amazing to see ah that you can bring that out into to your farm and to other people.

Speaker: the yeah so yeah you you the What people may not realize and they should realize is that high levels of, or the high application of nitrogen and phosphorus has, kills biology or puts, by not kills it, but puts it to sleep in the soil.

Speaker: um plants are um Plants are like little kids. They're opportunists. They're mike they're lazy. um So a plant's only you going to try to pick out whatever it can the easiest way it can. And conventional agriculture is really based on chemistry as being the driver. And even with that system, with chemistry being the driver, that's still the the most important part um in a conventional farm is still the quality of the water and the availability of water because it's that chemistry, that solution that you need um for the plant to pick up and applying a traditional fertilizers. um Usually they're in a water -soluble state and it has to stay in that water -soluble state in the in the soil for the plant to pick it up. um So, you know, that's where cover crops or intercropping, you want to

Speaker: You want everything we do is to preserve water in the soils on the farm and um and so So yeah, just ah and that's why yeah when you're going to go to a biology driven farm or system ah you can't you can't have one foot in in that world and one foot in the other world because it doesn't I've seen it and um It doesn't work that well It's just too easy when you have a bug problem to go out and spray. Insecticides, they kill. Fungicides kill. Herbicides to a certain extent kills. It kills the green part which feeds the the biology. So all these chemicals that we've been using um go against nature. and And when you're trying to grow nature or grow food through nature, you need our every every system working at the best possible.

Speaker: pace it can are the best possible way it was meant to be. And that's what nature does. Nature doesn't use any fungicides, any herbicides, any insecticides. and And if you look at nature,

Speaker: It doesn't have any generals, it doesn't have any corporals or presidents or anything. its It's about ecosystems working together. and And some of that ecosystems working together, closely together, um it's just root structures, right? You got weeds, I love, ah everybody hates weeds, but you know if you're gonna grow a new garden, um I would rather have a real good selection, a cross section of weeds, because they're going down into those,

Speaker: into those deeper um horizons in your soils, and they're bringing up that minerals that it needs. youre I haven't seen too many farms. I can't speak about Europe, but in in our area, I haven't seen too many farms that are really, really restricted by nutrients. um there There could be low volumes or low counts, but I haven't seen any soil around us that is completely deployed depleted of a certain elements. And that's even microalliant micronutrients too. so ah So that means that all the nutrients are are actually there. You don't have to add any.

Speaker: You don't have to add in, but you know people I would say that doesn't mean that you you should ah make your system. Biology on its own isn't going to be be the key. And if you're taking off corn, soybeans, you're going to have to apply something. But I would say the the The type of minerals that you may be putting in there may be a lot different. You may be going with a rock dust or or or something a little bit ah longer to to break down. And that's where biology comes in. If you're using ah rock any type of rock dust, um you know yeah microbes are going to be your best friends because they're going to make homes into that dust. And they're going to break that down naturally.

Speaker: um And, but you, in order for that to happen, you gotta have a, you gotta have a green crop up top. Um, yeah otherwise it just washes away. Yeah. oftentimes So yeah. So the other big thing that we did is that for the last 10 years, I guess, is that we've got almost all of our nutrition.

Speaker: comes from within the boundaries of our farm. man And, you know, just composting, just looking at what ah tree leaves have, like tree leaves have 64 different minerals well in them.

Speaker: And what I love about leaves is it's in our area, because we get, I guess, insane at the fall. There's hundreds and hundreds of bags of leaves um sitting at the end of everybody's driveway to be picked up. And that's your fertility for your farm. And we have a program here now where people actually, we give them a wagon because every every Every guy who drives a lawnmower thinks he's plowing the field or working in the field. So we have this wagon that we lent out to our villagers and they fill up there their wagon our wagon full of leaves and come down and dump it in our composting area. because and i love we And I love weeds and I love leaves because the nutritional value in them are all balanced out. They have the same amount of nitrogen, they have the same amount ah of ah phosphorus, they have the same, everything, zinc and all those elements are all within, there's nothing adding, you're not adding, you're not overloading the system. And that is huge. And we've eliminated a lot of the animal manure systems

Speaker: inputs in our farm um because we slowly, because um we're going through a transition here and the farming, that farm animal part of it is coming to an end. And so we had to start developing a a really good and effective compost without animal manure. And we were able to do it very easily, but we find that we have less pest problems when we use a vegetated um compost versus an animal um ah based compost. Now the animal based compost is going to be awesome for your soybeans, your wheat, your corn crops, but vegetables. you know ah If you've got problems with with insects that are eating or sucking the leaves of your plants, then I'm going to say you have an imbalance in nutrients, probably nitrogen, maybe magnesium,

Speaker: um And that's that balance a lot of times comes from using manures But if you use a plant -based compost everything because everything is in in sort of in the right ratios I guess is the way to say You you'll see a difference within two years easily within two years ah less insect problems in your plants So it's just again I'm not saying manures and are bad ah But I think there is a place for them and and you just have to figure out where's the best place on your farm to use those so So yeah, and then ah like the the big kicker for us Because we have a forest. I have our farm is actually Riverdale farm and forest and um and so i to keep busy in the wintertime um We have a forestry Used to be horse logging, but we're out of horse logging now

Speaker: And we took our waste wood and we originally started making biochar. And then biochar ended up from biochar, we ended up making wood vinegar. And then we start using wood vinegar. Explain a bit more about the the concept or not the concept, the the idea and usage of biochar and then the awesome by -product that we talked about.

Speaker: Yeah, so this is probably another ah podcast all on its own. But the biochar came to us. We started experimenting in and around 2012 because we had a lot of waste from our forestry division. um So we didn't know how to get rid of it. We could have ground it up and made it in the mulch, but we had enough mulch already.

Speaker: So I didn't see the value of adding more mulch to the mulch that we had. So I said, let's make biochar. And our I would say that first two years that we made just biochar on its own. it wasn't worth it. and and i'm going to And the reason it wasn't worth it was the method that we made it. And and we realized really quickly that we didn't see a big um improvement in in our soils, in our crops. Not on that first year. We saw a little bit on the second year, but but the third and fourth year, even even today, we don't see a lot ah a lot of value. And we were putting it really heavy. We were putting it

Speaker: ah My goal was to get 30 % volume of biochar in the first 6 to 12 inches, so we in our in our which is a lot. um and And a lot of that was was almost unfeasible to do, but um in our rototill beds, we were putting it on every year. But we realized two things, the way we were making it and the size and what we realized and making it ah is that we were burning it and making biochar at very high temperatures. And when you make biochar at very high temperatures, like 800 degrees Celsius to 1000 degrees Celsius, it loses a hydrogen and an oxygen.

Speaker: off the biochar, which is it loses its charge. So it loses its cation capacity. ah So it becomes almost inert. So it sit it can sit in the soil. Research is showing it can sit in the soil for years without without any um without any benefit. It just becomes a big lump of nothing. It doesn't have any it doesn't have any charge to hold the the the minerals.

Speaker: So kind of gave up on it a little bit. And then we started in 2018, 2016, I guess, we heard of this, this product called wood vinegar, didn't know much about it, but we knew it was a byproduct of of biochar. So we bought our first jug of it commercially. And then we started to use it on our farms. And we used it ah as a seed germination.

Speaker: um We added it to the plants as a foliar. We did it as a as a root or as a soil drench. And man, did we ever start seeing some differences in the way that it grew. Following that, we said, well, let's make our own wood vinegar, because the wood vinegar that we were buying in Canada was made from on the other side of the country. And that was predominantly conifer trees, which there's nothing wrong with it. it's just and And as we got to learn with it um and see it, we saw, oh, there's a little bit more tar in this stuff. So we thought, ah we can i not we, I said i we can make it better. And my idea was is to make it from our own local

Speaker: feedstock. So basically what wood vinegar is, is that we're we're making biochar at the same time, but we're or filling this vessel with with a feedstock and we use everything now from soybean to corn stocks, to garlic stocks, to sunflower stocks, to all the flowers that we grow.

Speaker: It doesn't matter. um and We can put wood in there. We use all the cuttings from our apple trees or orchards. And we put it into this vessel um that kind that hat is basically locked down, and there's no oxygen available to it. So that's the best way. And then we light a fire underneath this vessel.

Speaker: and as this wood starts to And as the wood starts to heat up, it starts to off -gas, is the best way. And as it's off -gassing, It has no place to go so except down this tube, um down this exhaust port. And this exhaust port has a cold water jacket around it and it condenses. So we're keeping the temperatures under 450 degrees Celsius. So we're keeping the temperature very, very low. And as the but as these products off gas,

Speaker: um We're collecting them and as it goes through this this, it's going from a very hot environment to a very cold environment. So that causes condensation. That condensation runs down the pipe and we collect it in a pail at the end. And what we realized there is a couple things, is temperature is very important. um But what we find is that wood vinegar has about 200 220 different compounds in it. what And basic it's basically um it's basically the the building blocks of plants. well And so then what we did is say, hey, you know what?

Speaker: let's And they're showing this, you know, let's reapply that to, to our vegetables. and We do do corns, we start doing the corn, we do do, ah especially grains, flowers and so forth. And that's basically we do, it's there's a bit more process to it. um And, and we only collect the temperature, we only collect the the wood vinegar, or it's called polyligneous acid is really the term. um And we only collect it between about 125 degrees, I guess is the is the low end to up to about 175 degrees. So there's just there's a very small window that we're actually collecting the liquid.

Speaker: because there are tars and everything else that comes out, but we found a home for tars. We found every part of the wood vinegar where we now collect, we we we've been able to use it very successfully on our farm. And then we what we did with that is then we started mixing it in ah with our liquid compost and and we just saw um results that we've never seen before. We found the magic potion.

Speaker: Yeah, it yeah i would I don't want to say it's the end all to be all. There's a lot more to it. You still have to maintain water. You still have to you know conserve water. You still need ground covers. But what that those compounds seem to do is be able to accelerate ah the plant's development. When we were doing seed treatments on our seeds, because we're direct seeding, remember, so we treated every seed that we had.

Speaker: Instead, we used to soak our seeds in the liquid compost, but now we just mix the liquid compost in conjunction with the wood vinegar. um Very small amounts of wood vinegar goes into the compost so or into the liquid compost. um and And now what we do is we we spray the seeds at germination. So for us, uh, like we can get carrots to sprout in under four days. And usually that took seven to 10 days. We can get corn to come up in two days. I mean, I could share like, like we can get beans to come up but with, an under way. Yeah. It's just, it just changed everything. Tomato seeds. It didn't matter what seed we applied it to the germination of that seed dramatically increased.

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Speaker: Yeah. And I remember when when I was on your farm, it was incredible to see your test fields. It was just mind -blowing. It didn't look real. The the difference it has in in in growth, like you showed me some output. I made a video on TikTok and I'll put it in the show notes so people that are interested can watch it because the the difference of not using it and using it is so huge. Like your plans develop at least like 10, maybe 20 times, ah they were 10 to 20 times bigger.

Speaker: ah which is like it's a revolution because if we can apply that the the weed management becomes also way easier because you're your new plants will grow so much or the plants that you want to grow will grow so much quicker. So you'll have less disturbance of weeds because it will the field will be closed way quicker. So I see so much potential in applying this in in and a broad field of of agriculture. Yeah, and this is something interesting you mentioned that you think it's or you say that it is the the the the building blocks for plants. Do you know why it is?

Speaker: um Well, ah think about it this way, is that what the roots are doing is they're making compounds. They're making, oh gosh, I've got a brain thing here, but all those compounds that it need to build and make those cells, we're just extracting that material back out. So we're basically i I don't want to call it essential oils, but you're basically taking all those those acidic acids, those, oh my gosh, there's 200 things of it, but there is one compound in in the smoke called the caricin compound, it's K.

Speaker: um Actually, I got a great book here somewhere. um K -A -R -R -I -K -I -N. And these caracrine compounds are found in smoke. And they have been researched just in the last 10 years as ah as a compound that actually generate is been connected to seed germination.

Speaker: And this comes out of the fires of Australia. They noticed that after the major fires 10 years ago, that there was so there was a huge ah growth um occurred outside of the burn zone. And they couldn't figure out why that was happening. And they realized that during the fires, the smoke was going up into the into the atmosphere. When it rained, it brought these kind compounds back down.

Speaker: and stimulated tremendous growth and tremendous seed germination. And that's where what we're seeing with the wood smoke that we're using. And the reason we're using these compound, the reason we're using these feedstocks that are local is because we're growing corn. you know Corn has a kind of a different compound.

Speaker: It uses different ratios to build the building blocks of corn. That's the seed, that's the stocks, that's the leaves. We're using all those, we're taking all those parts and making biochar out of it, but at the same time collecting the off gases of that product and reapplying it to the crop. So there's a lot of things I don't... Do you reapply it to corn again then, specifically? Yes, that's what we're doing now. Okay, that makes sense.

Speaker: So we're some of the big operations that we're working on right now are is the idea is to reapply it back to the crops. So we're growing, at this this week we'll be doing soybeans. We're running soybeans through our processor or our kilns and then we're collecting that material. Now what happens is also is that if you keep the temperature even lower,

Speaker: in around the 350 degrees, you um you can actually keep the nitrogen compounds in in the liquid. So you're also getting a nitrogen. If you burn it at higher than 350, the nitrogen compounds in those cells um burns up so there's all kinds of things that we're still trying to learn it's still a relatively new product i do know that there's a massive movement by the bio egg biotechs to separate and this and to um which is a real shame ah to synthesize this compound oh my god but way we yeah it's going to be sad uh it's going to be a sad day for alcohol and that's the problem i mean

Speaker: We, you do not. So we have conventional farmers right now that are using just wood vinegar as an additive to their liquid fertilizer programs. And they're seeing massive improvements in their crops and they're using 30 % less, uh, fertility in their, in their fields. So they're being able to cut back and there's, there's guys out there right now, uh, that are claiming even more than 30%. I always say 10%.

Speaker: But these guys that were using it, they're seeing they're yeah they're getting hooked on this stuff because if they can save... ah ah money on the fertility, ah it's worth every every bit. yeah we because With the the war in Ukraine, the the the prices of of nitrogen like skyrocketed and it just makes farmers so dependent, just like drug addicts, dependent on external inputs, right? like If they can take take back control of their own nutrient cycle,

Speaker: they they are not dependent on prize movements on the global market. So that's a huge, huge one as well. And wood vinegar, like when we are doing this, um wood vinegar is, did you hear me there? Yeah. yeah Okay. um Wood vinegar is very expensive. So we're like on foliar for corn, for example, we're using one part um wood vinegar to 650 parts water. So imagine this. So one liter of wood vinegar can make 650 liters of mix. So and and you think one liter of wood vinegar, you'd spray it at the same rate that you're spraying right now for any herbicide or any insecticide, fungicide. So whatever rate you have, and that wood vinegar probably is probably 20 bucks, 25, 30 bucks.

Speaker: so seed germination, it's it's one part wood vinegar to 250 parts liquid compost. So that's incredible um so and so that's one liter of mix to 250 liters or 200 liters, doesn't matter, take your choice. well oh ah ah so And liters of seed treatment is um is is a lot. That's a lot.

Speaker: but where we use ah where we where we find so you know when you go back and say eight hours of maintenance so how do you get eight eight hours of maintenance well you know what before we see the field or a row we'll go down and we'll add maybe some compost it works amazing with vinegar works amazing with with compost either a liquid form or or the solid form so we may put a small layer of of compost onto our gardens and we don't care if we don't keep our compost to the point where we're not worried about weed seeds. Let's put it this way. And because we use our composting system, I call it the RFF Riverdale Farm and Forest 130. So we keep our compost under 130 degrees. We add biochar in there. There's a whole bunch of things. Fahrenheit, Fahrenheit, yep. Sorry. It just sounded better than RFF 35 or what. I should change it to Celsius. no, no. the idea there is we'll put our layer of compost in. ah Because we're not putting it to high temperatures, we're still having, there's even, and we're going to have weed seeds. So the idea here is we'll just go down, we'll spread our our ah half inch or one inch of compost on the fields if that.

Speaker: um And then once it sits out there, we cover it, we spray it with one part wood vinegar, 250 parts liquid compost and spray that compost immediately after to keep it wet. And then we water it like it's a crop and every eat seed. And this is the beauty about this stuff is I didn't realize that seeds have different stages of germination. Some seeds be able to stay for 25, 30 years in the soil.

Speaker: Well, i'm telling you right now they all they're all going to um, they're all going to germinate a germination Then in our zero our zero till we haven't figured this out. Well, I do know how to do it But i'm not going to tell you how to do it right today um if on the on the all the other beds is then once that uh bed germinates with all the weeds and that's going to happen in two to three days maybe four depending on the weather then we'll come in and we'll scuffle it very lightly. And when we scuffle it very lightly, then we'll seed right into it. And then when we seed in the seeds that we're seeding, we'll be treated. And that eliminates almost 80 % of the weeding that we have to do in that bit.

Speaker: That's incredible. That's such a smart way of farming. like Instead of like being scared of weeds or pushing them away or treating them with chemicals to get rid of them, is you're actually actively growing your weeds so that you can maintain them or actively manage them and then take the the advantage for the crops that you want to grow. that' That's a huge ah innovation, I would say.

Speaker: So that yeah, so the idea is you don't pick the weeds out. You just leave them in there because that's going to be a ground cover, right? Going to keep that. So you just scuffle them down, take them out. And if you think your germination rate, if you think, you know, well there's a lot here, then do it again. And there's there's some fields I've done twice and you still ah just by the the diversity and the density. So once a seed is spent, once it's grown, it doesn't grow back. And this only works for annual seeds. If you have a perennial weed, then you may have to do something else.

Speaker: But for the annual weeds, yeah, I just do that weed right into it and then and then seed it and then you're off to the races and that that ah Saves us a ton of time especially in lettuces um Because I can't stand row covers and I can't stand plastic mulches and that that has been a Huge huge time saving and cost saving um Process here on the farm and we do that pretty well for every cop so and in our zero bed um Ideas is that We use the tar and just so you understand we distill the wood vinner the raw wood vinner that comes out of the chamber and

Speaker: We let it sit for up to a year. you can Three months is probably the minimum the maximum probably a year, but in that year, the the the the wood vinegar separates and what happens is you get a very light oil at the top of the of the barrel and you get the much heavier tires and solids down to the bottom. And we just used the part in between. Well, the bottom stuff, we realized it kills everything within two days. And we started using that in our zero bit um ah as a weed control because we

Speaker: grow a crop in there and the weeds would come up and well and you can cut them but we actually let them grow up a little bit and then we apply that directly onto our beds and within two days it kills every weed in there. The top of it is dead and it sets it back. they We found out that we could reseed very comfortably right back into there within three to four days after ah after that.

Speaker: that initial um application of the tar and we get a bumper crop. and yeah Like I'm talking, like we we have oats and we have ah Rapini and and we also do a lot of cover cropping.

Speaker: tillage radish, ah and it's just absolutely incredible ah the crop that comes in after that. And again, we're treating the seeds, but yeah, there's there's there's all kinds of stuff. We're treating now two things that we realized in our farm. As we increase the nutritional value and of our vegetables, the store like the shelf life increases.

Speaker: well So they're like, if you want, we, we're still eating cabbage from last year. So we realized carrots, the same thing. So ah the higher the sugar level in the, in the crop and the fall, the longer it stores yeah in cold frames. We're now experimenting using with vinegar.

Speaker: and this is something that I ah ah experiments that were done in in Australia i believe ah of soaking the taking the cabbage and dipping it for 10 seconds in a in a solution of wood vinegar and water and then storing and that's what we're eating right now and and that seems to preserve the outside of the of the um of the yeah of the cabbage ah from getting any bacterial and fungal. And you can use ah you can use wood vinegar for pretty well everything. well So we don't we don't have diseases like because because we believe that ah if you can increase the the the health of the plant, you're

Speaker: basically should be able to reduce the amount of diseases. so But we have we use it on our apple trees. We haven't had a lot of the pests that we had in the past on our apples and pears. ah yeah like i'm i'm not saying you could use it on its own, but where I still think the biggest advantage to it is using it with with liquid compost. And that is, I mean, for seed germination and and general spray. Yeah. Oh, no question seed germination. yeah know And this year we're working with a couple other bigger farmers um to to use the wood vinegar and liquid compost in their organic operations because they

Speaker: they've seen the benefit. One of the mistakes, remember that, I don't know if you remember when you came to the farm, I showed you, maybe I did show you the trays, but I stuck some trays after I did this. I had a tour coming in yeah and I stuck this thing and then I stuck the, excuse me, um the trays in the greenhouse.

Speaker: um for 30 days, literally for 30 days with no water. The untreated ones all died. The treated ones, when I pulled out the roots, were still green and had a massive root system. And those were just small aluminum trays, maybe with an inch and a half, two inches of soil, but they were able to survive. So there's lots of research showing that that using wood vinegar in the seed germination process or start or protocol not only benefits is in the speed of germination but also in the ability for the roots

Speaker: to withstand more drought conditions. And I totally saw that and ah in our in that greenhouse experiment or that sort of threw it in the greenhouse. And the greenhouse got up to 80 degrees, 90 degrees. And the other plants were just, you couldn't even tell that they were bean plants because they the untreated ones just kind of fizzled away. But every one of the treated seed ones lived. And even though they looked like crap, um and i should the the the thing I'm kicking about myself is I should have seen if I could have re -brought those back to life by adding water. But it was late in the season. And to be honest with you, I was ready to call it quits.

Speaker: But yeah, that's always when the good experiments come when like most of massive breakthroughs came from like most of the big inventions came from like a mistake or something that the researcher forgot and then you observe some new amazing tool or a new amazing technology innovation here. So I think this is mind boggling to see what the potential of it is because we're only starting to to to see it how powerful it is now. And to me, it also totally makes sense because oftentimes what I try to do is like what you said as well as like observe how nature works, and then use that knowledge and apply it in your farm, in your garden, wherever. And

Speaker: The fires that we are seeing nowadays, that its it's going out of control. It's way too much. But in a natural ecosystem where everything is at balance, fires also did a cure. And in that sense, it makes complete sense that it's kind of like a when nature has to go through a ah disaster or a setback, that it's so robust with this, in this particular case, the wood vinegar to bam restore itself in in in a faster way. Now you as an observer

Speaker: and And as an experimenter, as a farmer, you're taking that knowledge, which is it's been around for millions and billions of years. You're taking that knowledge and applying it in it in your farm to your advantage and you're getting the most potential out of it. So that that's just incredible. Yeah. Yeah. And you and you and you look at um wood vinegar and and you realize it's been around since the days of Romans. It's not new, oh oh it's just old technology. and and Now, this is where I do think there might be a little bit of a conspiracy, but traditional egg companies don't want you to use this and don't want you to make it. They want you to get

Speaker: Like you said that be it be addicted to their their ways of farming and um And you know if you look at where wood vinner comes you look at Indonesia has their their whole farming um for is supported through wood vinegar and the government supports them. Australia is starting to come online with wood vinegar. or turkey Turkey is huge in wood vinegar. India is starting to get into it. China has been on on this kick now for almost ah five or six years. so So when you look at the history of wood vinegar, and ah it's nothing that is

Speaker: earth -shattering, like, oh, did you make it? No, I did not make it. It's been around for a long time. The the the reality for us is that we've been, and I think we've been sold, ah that, you know, you need to use this or use that in order to grow crops. And I'm saying, you know what, I think we need a change. And the reality is, is is You know, we are by far the most advanced chemical factory on the planet us, humans. And and you know, I drink, I think I've ate 33 ,000 pounds of food to be to reach the age of 66. Who I am physically is is the food that I eat and the food that we're eating today

Speaker: is is nowhere near the quality that it could be. And and if we're going to survive and cut down on health care and and do good for the climate and all the things that they want us to do, those are all secondary acts based on growing good food. Yeah. And that something that stood out for me is that what what you said about the farmers that are dependent on the chemistry. or And this is something very common in in most conventional farms that the farmers take advice from the chemistry companies. like This is there this is the the support that they're getting is coming from the people that sell the the ah chemical compounds. So guess what their biggest interest is? It's not going to be to reduce the amount of chemicals. it's like

Speaker: How can we put sell as much chemicals to these farmers? and then they are being misused in that way that they think they need so much chemicals. And year after year, it's increasing and it's increasing, which brings the costs for the farmers up. And now many farmers across Europe and other countries are or having enough of it because it's just like it's in it's a dead end street. it just There is no like doing more chemistry and doing lesser yields and destroying the soil more. it's just

Speaker: it It has an end. And I see it like it's either the politics that are going to change it, which is happening in Europe, or it's climate change that will make it unable for any farmer to grow any kind of food in a conventional way. So in that way, I'm very optimistic about the the approach that you're taking, because it's kind of inevitable, in my opinion. but Well, you know what, it's it's going to happen.

Speaker: um as my wife would say, you have to have a breakdown before you have a breakthrough. I think the the reality is, I think the biggest problem with with agriculture right now is the amount of farm debt. And when you have farm debt, it's very, very difficult two um to pivot.

Speaker: yeah and and And you have to follow what your grandfather did and your dad did because it paid the bills. And that's what I would say. we're not or Agriculture um is right now is about surviving. It's not about thriving. and and And I would say that's where we are a little different.

Speaker: is that we worked in reverse in our farm. So we, we came up with a number that we need to, that I would like to maintain as an income. And, and what, instead of getting ideas of grandeur and bigger, uh, I said, okay, we're going to hit this number X. And when we hit this number X, I know I can live very comfortably and go away six weeks of the year. I can go skiing.

Speaker: like I got, you know, there's trucks, there's cars, there's motorcycles, there's all the things I can go fishing. So now when I hit level X, how do I get more time? Because time is something that we can't get back. It's a commodity that only goes one way when we can never get anything back. So when I hit X, now it's about how do I get my farming to give me more X, more time? Because it's the quality of life that that is going to make me the happiest. I mean, do I love farming? Absolutely. Do I want to do it 12 hours a day, seven days a week? No, because that doesn't leave me much time to do anything else. So our philosophy here really is when we hit X, how do we shrink our operation to make the same amount of X and less use less time? And the way that we've been able to do that is through

Speaker: is through really is taking this bold step, looking at nature, figuring out how it's been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years and grow. And and people say, well, you got to feed the world. Oh, do I? Yeah. If I, if I, you know, what I heard somewhere when I was the last convention, I was an orange in 1950.

Speaker: You had to eat one orange. One orange was all the nutrition you need. Now you need to eat seven. So imagine if our corn, our soybeans were the same way. Instead of you know having to grow 20 heads of lettuce, we could just grow five or five heads of lettuce to feed the world. Like if our nutritional value would go up in our food, we could have no problem ah feeding the world. But as our nutritional value goes down, you know, everything goes down. The largest, the largest, ah the pharmaceuticals sell more mineral supplements now.

Speaker: as an industry, then they do medicine. It used to be medicine was their big thing, but if you look at their their bottom lines, they sell more multivitamins, more healthcare care products to boost your your your mineral availability, then they do aspirin and all the rest of the junk they push. so That's incredible because it's no longer available and in the food that we eat. So we need to take all the supplements just to be like to survive basically. even

Speaker: ah So I want to still talk about that in a little little bit, the the nutrient density of what you're growing and and the people that you heart you you help. we started it you You explained it a little bit in the start, but there's people that are really sick with diabetes cancer and everything that come out to your farm and can start to heal just by eating your food. Just explain to me a bit more about that.

Speaker: So, you know, that's, and that's a hard thing to quantify, right? So, but we do notice is that the people that have come out, um you know, like we had somebody with a brain tumor and they were terminal and they had like three or four months to live. Now,

Speaker: Did our food give them an extra year and a half? I have no idea. Was it the idea of the whole and community coming out and getting the field, like coming to the farm, walking to the farm, getting the getting the the vegetables, petting the petting the animals? Was it the quality of life that increased it in conjunction with the quality of the food?

Speaker: maybe, you know but we have people we have people that you know have diabetes. i if If they follow the right formula set out by somebody else and they buy the beets and they buy the lettuce and they change their diet, as their diabetes goes away. And as soon as they get off off that Um, pro, uh, procedure, this has happened more than once. Oh, I started feeling good. Then all of a sudden you go back and all of a sudden diabetes. We have kids that are hyper hypervent, you know, HD HD. I don't know what the hell, I think I got that wrong. but you you know how Autism. These are all ah modern diseases that are linked to the chemical use in agriculture, such as Roundup. And they are more and more recent research is now showing that the use of

Speaker: Roundup and and it's called glyphosate is actually causing all these modern diseases such as cancer, diabetes, ah autism. like ah just had and my Just in the last couple of months, I had so many people in my surrounding that were like like a child of three years old with ah with with cancer, like another friend of my age, very helpful he looked very healthy, he has all of a sudden diabetes. like These are all things that are popping up left and right. it It's really something big. Yeah, and it and I'm not saying the environment doesn't have ah and have a ah has a place in this, but, you know,

Speaker: I see those kids that are hyper -activated, the parents come down. you know it's it like I could tell you so many examples. I got letters here. you know oh I feed my kids carrots now. They take carrots to school and they're and they're giving the carrots to their friends right because the carrots are sweet. So I'm going, okay, so what do we do there? So some of our food has been is so badly produced.

Speaker: Kids don't want to eat it because everybody's hooked on sugar. But if a carrot is sweet, it usually has a lot of nutrition in it. And and so we have these these cases. Now the kids that are hyperactive, you know, you start feeding them ah good quality food. You let them run down the driveway, ah let them get outside, start eating the the the dirt.

Speaker: um and then and see what happens. And that's our next stage right now. So what we did is we basically are closing down. um We're still doing a lot of research in growing vegetables, but what we did is though those 44 people that were in part of our healthcare care program, 24 of them, ah some of them moved away, but the 24 core group that was right into it. We said, you know what, let's show you how to grow food. So now we have 24 allotments on our farm, where these 24 individuals that have all kinds of different um problems, ah stress problems now are in the garden on this is year four for them and growing their own food. And, and it's so, it's so interesting watching, watching these 24 people

Speaker: um Look at the food that they're growing and eating the food that they're growing and taking it home and you know the It's it's it's oh gosh, there's a whole thing just watching them and observing them ah Trying to grow to grow the food and it's the men who are the most excited. When they see a tomato plant, when they plant a tomato and a tomato plant comes out where they planted it, they just about die. like oh my god And then they go then they chuck then they eat the fruit and go, oh my God, I can't believe it. This is nothing like we get in the store. I said, yeah, you know, tomatoes in the store are a lot different than the tomatoes in the field.

Speaker: and field ripe versus tomato store ripe is is completely different and so we're trying to make them here and make this connection with them is that um is to help them supply some of the food that they need um In season here at the farm and it's been a it's just been an absolute ah blast Interacting with these people and you know, we you know, it's and it's not just growing food. It's the social Yeah part of it and that's that's

Speaker: the the problem The biggest problem I see in North America, particularly, I can't speak about Europe, but our farms are too big. Our farms are way too big. And um and this this whole idea and this bring And because our farms are so big and we're so disconnected from our consumer, that's why we that's why we need these tags. I'm certified organic or i'm because there's a disconnect.

Speaker: i mean i think what and So we have to prove to the consumer that we're doing it right way rather than come to the farm or come to the street vendor and meet me.

Speaker: and learn me and see what are see who I am and see if i'm ah see what I can grow and and make that connection. And this is where I see a tremendous opportunity um is is is to reconnect with your food, whether you're growing it or just coming to the local farm. like We have a fruit stand at the end of our driveway. we We put all our extra food out there. We have people come from all over the world and they stop.

Speaker: And I think they get a kick out of it because because there's just a cash box and it's open. can you think and And it's just on the author's system. And I have no idea if somebody's taking 20 bucks. I couldn't care less.

Speaker: it's just the gives them It's amazing how many people we have, especially from people new new new new people that come to Canada, and they go, I can't believe you you leave your your cash box there. Aren't you afraid somebody's going to steal it? I said, listen, if somebody needs it that bad, they can have it.

Speaker: I'm always amazed no one steals the coolers because that's where the food is in but we have very Very very few that I'm aware of people taking the the the cash from the box They they trust you and they think I think honestly, I think farmers are losing that right now They're losing that trust that they they can do good for you and and what we're trying to build it here in the farm and it's so it's so great to see um that happening, ah but that kind of connection is is desperately needed and in the cities and the farms. that we Yeah, I agree totally that with farming it's underutilizing its huge potential to reconnect communities and be a community space to do activities to and to also monetize on that because when you're a farmer you're oftentimes struggling to make ends meet. Now here's a ah way that you can actually

Speaker: get a new sort of income by having people come over, enjoy your farm, because once you get into that direction of farming, which is more in harmony with nature, you don't have to shy away that you're using chemicals, that you're doing things that are not actually good, because most farmers know that they are destroying their soil and that they're not doing the right thing. So they don't want to have any visitors because they are actually ashamed about it. what But when you get into the right direction,

Speaker: you're more than happy to open your doors and to show how amazing it is. And also the aspect you shared about teaching people how to grow food and the amazement around it. like For me as a kid, this was one of my greatest memories that I had to start growing my own food. So there's so many aspects that are underutilized that have huge potential for for farmers to take back charge of their life and and become a successful business.

Speaker: yeah i think yeah yeah there's but Yeah, there's so much we could talk about. But yeah but for me, it was is is getting to the X. And I think everybody needs to find the X. What's their income that they want to make, their net income? And when I when i go to that, there's ah there's a local egg place here. We go for breakfast one time. And there's all these farmers. And these farmers are 2 ,000 acres, 1 ,500 acres, 3 ,000. And they've got big trucks, new equipment, and everything.

Speaker: And I come in there and they go, and I say, can I sit with you? Cause I'm a farmer. And they go at first they wouldn't let me sit, even though I went to school and then, and then we sit there and we chat and they open up and it's amazing how many of those guys are coming to the farm on their own. They'll never ask a question, never ask a question in the presence of another farmer or with with their peers, but they'll come individually and they start seeing it and they go, Oh gosh. Yeah. I said, yeah, I don't have a,

Speaker: I got a 1984 tractor. It still works. you know I don't have a million dollar combine. Yet, at the end of the day, what really counts is is your net income.

Speaker: and and What do you want to take home? And if you want to take $250 ,000 home, then that's the number you want to shoot. If you want to shoot $100 ,000, then you need $100 ,000. And that's your net income. That's paying the equipment, everything. I think i think that's that's where I would tell a lot of young farmers to go is figure out what you want to make and then Go out and make it and then either yeah if you have to expand it or find a way that you can make that number and that's what i'm trying to do with these bigger farmers around here but they're terrified they're terrified of giving up an acre of land. and I'm saying why are we try why are you traveling forty five minutes to a field an hour to a field.

Speaker: When you got 300 acres in your own backyard, let's make the best out of this 300 acres in your farm rather than driving through the through all the country roads, the combines, the plows, whatever, all that equipment, the sprayers. Drive 45 minutes there, 45 minutes, that's an hour and a half out of your day.

Speaker: and you've got everything you need in your own backyard and that's what I realized about nutrition. Pretty well, I haven't been to too many farms unless you're out in the middle of nowhere that you don't have some opportunity for nutrition on your own farm. Your fence lines, you know, there's just like we plant row our row covers, our our fence lines, we don't rip them out, we plant them and that becomes a potential income revenue for us because that's landscape material and it may only be, it may never be a material, it may never be that specimen that that landscaper needs, but a tremendous amount of people around here are always looking for B material, material that, you know, I might have whacked it with a lawnmower or or something yeah or a broken branch on the bottom and and we'll sell that to them. They'll come in with their tree spades, they'll dig it out,

Speaker: take it home you know that's an extra year two three hundred dollars for me in my pocket ah just for caring for a tree along the fence line which is keeping the biology and is keeping the soil ah winds down or wind erosion it's keeping those the ah soil moisture up it's making these micro climates in our smaller fields for our hay or our our sunflowers or whatever we're growing in those so it just it there's There's so many opportunities in agriculture yeah to to do something outside of just growing that one crop for for a certain period of time. And that's where we diversify our income yeah and make it stronger.

Speaker: Yeah, that's really important to like, you're starting to diversify your farm, but you're also starting to diversify your income, which then makes your farm way more resilient if one or the other goes wrong. So that's a very important aspect. And far too often with most farmers, there's some a paradigm that doesn't make sense at all that farmers would rather have a higher yield and not make any money than make a lower yield and make more money. That is something that I came across that blew my mind. I was like, why would you want to grow 15 tons of grain and not make any money because you have to put so much input in it and and work the line too much if you you

Speaker: You'd be happy with 10 tons per hectare of a way higher quality that you can sell at a higher price and that require way less inputs. This is something super important that farmers have to focus on more on like what do you want to earn net. Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, and i mean like i said and the way that we got there for us was was finding as much of the resources as we can within our own farm. Even the field stones that we picked you know when I first started feeling farming, those are incredible mineral reserves that just need to be basically grinded, and we did grind them.

Speaker: you bring a grinder in it makes it uh puts it into a smaller and then we put it through another grinder to make it super small like micronize it and then reapply that to our field that's a free thing and now that costs us probably 3000 bucks and we got almost 25 tons of of of rock dust out of that and and that's the mint that's the rock that those rocks that we picked up were the base minerals that nature has been trying to break down through the reaction in the soil for hundreds of thousands of years. So yeah, there's a lot of things and we could talk you know ah about root structures. you know This is something that like ah you're actually helping nature hand. That's what you do as a farmer. You're speeding up certain processes that are going to happen anyway.

Speaker: you You just help nature and at this stage ah with our climate climate being so extreme as well, nature can definitely use a hand to perform better and also for farmers, yeah the the extremities in the in the weather patterns are so important to make that shift because if you don't make the shift and the rain is going to be out for a longer time or you will have like flash floods, flash floods onto your farmland, your topsoil will erode or it dries out way to click quickly. where Whereas if you farm in the way that you're doing Owen, it kind of stays resilient even if the climate is changing.

Speaker: Well, yeah, so we took our fields that had, because our farm, it was in the family, my wife's family um for quite a few years. It's been in the family, in and out of the family since 1840. So it's got a long we had a long history on this property.

Speaker: And it was beat up. The farmer, we my father -in -law, rented it out and it was plowed to death and they plowed up all these stones and too deep of plowing. And it had a crop rotation of corn and soybeans, corn and soybeans, corn and soybeans. So it had a pretty hard use. We took that organic matter over the last five or six years.

Speaker: and we've increased it from about two and a half, three percent and some fields are up in the six and eight percent organic matter in our hay field. yeah That is insane because I'm just going to jump in there for the general listeners. This is something that most farmers are struggling with so much. they are Year after year, their organic matter is going down because because of the use of of synthetic nitrogen that drains the the the carbon content, but getting to a carbon content of six to eight, that's like, it's it's the it's it's the dream, the biggest dream for any farmer to get that because they know that if you have that carbon content, your soil will perform so much better. So yeah, that's amazing. yeah

Speaker: So, and we've done that over 10 years, right? so that's and we could have and And now I know how to do it even faster, now but that's been a slow process. So for us to put, ah and this is where biochar ah can be a real benefit. Biochar isn't going to save, I wouldn't put biochar in a field that has higher than 5 % organic matter. But if you're in a sandy soil and your organic matter is 2%,

Speaker: or under, that biochar really acts like organic matter. And until you get your system going, maybe you need to put um biochar, a fine ground biochar in um in that, say, you know two tons per acre, or two tons per hectare. So here's the thing about biochar. When we grind our biochar up, and one cubic foot of biochar that we grind up, so one cubic foot, one by one,

Speaker: 12 inches by 12 inch. I know that's not metric, but that has equivalent of 300 acres of surface soil or surface area. So I don't know how that would convert into hectares, but that's 300 acres.

Speaker: in that one foot by one foot of biochar, which means you're providing a home for biology. You're providing a water absorption capacity for your soils. You're providing a nutrient grabber, so it's going to pick up all those nutrients that arere either applying or within the soil are going to start are not going to be leached away.

Speaker: i mean And if you're in a sandy or low organic matter soil, you'd be very foolish, in my opinion, not to pay the expense of having that put onto your fields to at least retain, even if you're in conventional farmers, just to retain some of the nutrients that you're applying to your crop annually, because that biochar If it's charged, right, has ah has a high has a super high cation exchange capacity, um instead of those elements being leached out into the into your groundwater and it out into the lakes, it can be maintained into your fields for next year's crop. And we add that biochar into our compost for the simple fact that is that as that biochar is going through the process of heat and and and

Speaker: and breaking down, it's also releasing a lot of those elements into the atmosphere or releasing them down into the soil. So adding biochar as a component of your compost locks up those minerals. So there's just there's just so many so many little things you can work on. yeah And biochar, you can make it yourself or you can buy it. It's an expense.

Speaker: It's very inexpensive, and it's ah probably a raw material that you have on your own farm. It can even be made from, I mean, the scrap wood, as long as it's not chemically treated wood, or plywood, you wouldn't use plywood. But I mean, every two by four, or every there's just so much wood around.

Speaker: um and branches and storms and neighbors and tree services that are cutting and trimming stuff. I mean, that's a free resource. And and it's not like you're gonna apply that biochar on a regular basis. If you put ah enough of it out on your fields, then, you know, two, three, four tons. I mean, they're spreading out here. They're spreading nine tons of of organic matter or compost per acre to make it beneficial. And that's a lot.

Speaker: and of why are you guys It doesn't and they're and they're only going for the nutritional value in the in and the organic matter or in the compost Mmm, but I'm just saying so When you really look at what I always tell people is go home walk your fields and while you're walking your fields um Make an audit of everything you see and that you don't see trees birds grasslands. Your fence lines are undisturbed ecosystems of immense value. Those are fence lines are places that you can go grab but ah probably a shovel full of dirt that has microbes that are 100 ,000 years old that have been there since the beginning of time.

Speaker: if it hasn't been undisturbed. Your woodlots that haven't been disturbed, another whole ecosystem, and then you're just going to take those microbes, brew them in your teas, reapply them to your so to your to your crops. what Yes, I have no idea what's in there, but it's about that predator -prey interaction that we talked about, and it's going to do an amazing... You're going to see improvements, and if you don't see improvements, then you need to not to give up on it. You need to to reevaluate where you went wrong, check your water, check your check your sugars, or check your you're you're your what yeah is there actually microbes in there, or or is there something else, and then evaluate it. And the chances are if it has a green leaf, a green stem,

Speaker: and something green growing on it along your fence line, it's it's a healthy ecosystem. It may not be a great healthy ecosystem, but it's a healthy ecosystem. And and yeah, along this, yeah, it's just, I don't know, sometimes I get tired of saying the same thing over, but but um you got you gotta to try.

Speaker: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great message to to start wrapping things up here because I feel that we could talk for hours and hours and hours. and So it's always a pleasure to spend time with you. Owen, you've given us so much great value to to the audience, ah in general, to people that are not necessarily into farming, to look out for farmers that are doing it the right way for your personal health and then for farmers and other people and in in the industry.

Speaker: to to start making a a change on your or farm by by doing tests. That's my main thing that I take away is here. like Just try on a little patch, see what the difference does, see how it improves, and then you can make it a ah more conventional thing because this is what I want to see. We have to make this way that you are doing it. Oh, and this has to become the conventional way.

Speaker: so That would be great, yes. ah yeah And I'm going to tell you right now, I've had more failures than I had successes. and But every failure I had led to a success. And and perseverance is is the um is the name of the game here. um Yeah, if it doesn't work, then re like a biochar, I gave up on it eight years ago, nine years ago, and now it's it's become the backbone. and that's That's just because I've learned to ah learned a little bit more about it, read some more, found farmers that were thinking in my own way and learned from them. um And not everything I i saw at another farm would work on my farm and I questioned a lot of what I saw.

Speaker: But then at the same time, I said, well, let me see if it can work. And some stuff worked and some stuff didn't. And and that's that's part of oh of being a farmer. To become a better farmer, you've got to have failures. so yeah The obstacle is the way. So, Owen, thank you very much for being on the show. How can people best reach out to you or come and visit your farm?

Speaker: ah Well, anytime you're in Ontario, Canada, you're welcome to come. ah we are going to We are doing some improvements on our website, but you can email me. It would be the best. that's and I don't know if you have this, but it's owen o w e n dot .riverdale at gmail dot .com.

Speaker: um i think in uh in the next week or two our website is i believe it's riverdale farm and forest dot ca i think if you read that you should get to that uh we are going to we'll probably hopefully we'll be able to post this uh podcast on there and which is great and then we're going to do uh show some more pictures of what we're doing um And if you're really, really keen, just we can do a Zoom together. yeah the I don't charge a lot for anything I do. ah The reason I don't charge a lot for what I'm doing, my wife says you're missing a revenue, is because nature's free. And I would love to be able to keep doing and giving what I, because everybody could do what I'm doing, to be honest with you. Yeah, but you have an extreme knowledge about it. So I wouldn't say, I wouldn't agree with you on that one, but yeah but

Speaker: so but you know what i um If I can be any help, yeah, sure. Just give me a shout, write me a letter, ah or talk to me. I'm not going to give you my phone number because I never answer my phone. You're best to ah go through that the internet email. But yeah, I want to, it's been a, I will say it's been a great, i great inspiration to meet you um in person. And that people like yourselves inspire me to keep going.

Speaker: um I mean, I've realized ah I don't have as many planting ah years left and i get I get frustrated when I go around with young farmers and they go, I got 45 more planting um seasons and I'm going, oh God, I would love to have 45, but I only have maybe five, six, maybe 10 at the most. I mean, I'm going to go right to the end. but But yeah, I think i think if if people can learn a little bit from people like myself, I'm not saying everything, I will work on your farm, but I think there has there's ah there is a revolution coming, there is a war coming, the war is not with other countries, it's going to be

Speaker: among ourselves and in figuring out how to to survive this. I do think that food has to be our medicine and make medicine your food. And it has to start with people like yourself and myself. um And like I said, we can talk for hours because we really just scratched the surface. So anyways, that's all I'm going to say.

Speaker: Exactly. Well, Owen, thank you very much for being on the show. We'll put all your links in the show notes and people can find that there as well. Owen, thank you very much. See you soon. Thank you. Bye -bye.