Transcript
Speaker: Open space, it's the worst you can do. But then, you truly feel good in a loft? Does that bring you that sense of coziness, of being at home and feeling safe? You know, all those windows, a whole wall of windows.
Speaker: Your brain doesn't perceive that as safety, right? Hello and welcome to the Regenerative Design Podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker: Are you person that cares about your environment and our planet, that wants to leave the planet to our children to be something that we can be truly proud of? to enjoy for many generations to come.
Speaker: But are you also a person that believes we can do all of this and do good in business? I have really good news for you. You're here listening to the podcast that is all about making our planet a better place and making your business more successful.
Speaker: Enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Regenerative Design Podcast with your host Mathieu. And today we have another amazing guest. Her name is Nadia Rilly.
Speaker: And Nadia has a very interesting story or she's focused on something very interesting. She's focusing on mural architecture and more specifically, she's working with animals. She's actually an architect for animal facilities.
Speaker: ah such as zoos but also beyond zoos and so I'm super excited to talk. We already connected a few days ago and I found very fascinating because I looked at some of her designs for the animals and I'm saying thinking like I want to live there. I want to live in such buildings because in a way we're animals too.
Speaker: So I'm curious to understand more of that and dive right in. But yeah, first of all Nadia, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? Thank you, Matthew. It's a pleasure to be here with you and share whatever I can with you and your audience.
Speaker: Yeah, that's exciting. So let's dive right in. I want to understand, like how did you end up in this kind of work? like Were you born as a child, always playing with animals and building houses for animals? Or what's what's the story? What's the backstory?
Speaker: Well, actually, it's it's quite interesting because I would say no, it wasn't coming from a beginner's devotion or one of these you know childhood loves that you do know that you want to work with animals or you want to build stuff. It wasn't like that.
Speaker: And to be honest for me, and I always said it since the beginning of my career that I actually felt like strings pulling my life. I would receive things nearly basically on a tray. Which doesn't mean I didn't have to do a lot of effort to be where I am but if I didn't listen once, I would be slapped to listen twice.
Speaker: So there was always this feeling of something giving me that direction. and I listen, have that intuition and I knew how to listen. So everything started at university where obviously we were given design projects to design which were animals which were human-centered and that didn't work for me. i just like it. I didn't have that flow of design. Anyway, it's a long story.
Speaker: But I discovered i could center my architecture around animals. And that's how I would go to the professors and to the teachers and ask if I could do this type of project. And usually they would say yes. So I graduated with you know from architecture doing a project about quarantine centered for smuggled animals, plus veterinary hospital for big hoofed animals, meaning giraffes and horses and you know like big stuff. well So once that was finished, I knew i would have to go and look for work, right? And most of the design studios, they were busy doing zoo design because this is what, whenever we speak about animal-centered architecture,
Speaker: Most of the focus goes to zoo design, right? Because there's aquarics, there's infrastructure, there is a lot of them, there is a lot happening. There's money to invest because there's visitors, there's a business model. yeah business It's a business, let's face it. unfortunately, most of those design companies, they're based in states and that's not the direction which I wanted to take in my life.
Speaker: And so, you know, just just one thing after another one, as I say, those strings were pulling and I went to a conference and after the conference, I received my first inquiry to make a quotation for a possible collaboration.
Speaker: And, you know, that that clicked. It's like, okay, I have to be an entrepreneur. I didn't ask questions. I didn't know. You know, it'ss I just ended up jumping because before I knew how to fly. And a decade later, ah here I am, um being an animal architect, as I call myself, because I don't close the spectrum of my work to zoo design.
Speaker: There is much more to do. There are many animals which need proper environments, even our house animals. Right. so um So this is this is the story. And I've been quite lucky because amazing projects, great clients all over the world. i've traveled, I've seen, I've been, interacted with the animals. So So yeah, pretty satisfied with the strings that were pulling my life. i think that's amazing. Yeah. And if we can go a little bit even more in your personal story, i think that could be interesting for the listeners too, that you were a couple years ago, you were...
Speaker: or Can you talk a little bit more about like where you hit a little bit of a crisis and you have to reinvent or rebuild yourself? If that's okay, I think that would be very valuable too for the show.
Speaker: it it It is because when you open a business, like no one unless you finish your economic studies and you know what business is about, if If you're coming from a different background, it's we don't know these things, right? So I just set up my business with the best intention in the world, but maybe not the correct fundament.
Speaker: So... although It did go very well at the beginning. i would say that it was the beginner's luck. As we spoke previously, it was all also different times. 10 years ago, business was different. it was pre-COVID. LinkedIn worked in a different way. The way you make contact with your clients, it was also very different.
Speaker: tell it more Tell a little bit more about that, like how you actually started your business and how you got clients. and and It was easy. i would make one post on LinkedIn and I would get a request from a client. and that's I don't remember what I posted before.
Speaker: that time but i remember i've posted something on linkedin and then a lady from a sanctuary in south africa which was currently the vet which was running the sanctuary for rhinos i remember the message she said oh i just saw one of your projects i love them we want you to design our facility and that's how it worked you know and It's a life story. And then obviously as well assisting conferences, you know like physically. It was more much more of a physical world then.
Speaker: pre-COVID, it also made a difference. And I would say if anyone is listening and wants to get inspired, I would say you have to expose yourself. You have to be out there. You have to speak to people. You have to reach to people. Look for opportunities that are everywhere.
Speaker: And I would engage in, you know, maybe the smallest and the tiniest thing, which I would think, oh, how come that can have an input on my career? And it did. and The place where I met this lady ah from the Rhino sanctuary, she was holding an event in London in a club just to present what she's doing with the rhinos. And it was a little bit more promotion of the sanctuary in the British society. ah
Speaker: And I saw that somewhere online it was paid, I think, 20 pounds to assist with. Well, you just pay 20 pounds and you go and you do it. Luckily, I was in the UK then. And that's how I met. So when I made the post on LinkedIn, she knew who I was. yeah And that was just the small collection connection. Just go to a meeting, go to an event. If someone is found raising, I don't know, money in a dog shelter, go.
Speaker: You don't know who you're going to meet. right It's your world. It's your people. So I would say... As I said before, it was the streams that were pooling with my very strong intuition. I live and die for my intuition. and That would say, just go, you know.
Speaker: And that that would be like a physical kind of, I felt it and I would do it. And then something would come and something would come. yeah. That was the the process. But to go back to the topic, yes, things went very well at the beginning. And obviously, as I say, the market was different. So we're talking about some kind of retro business. And then um I worked a lot in the Emirates, which also kind of gave momentum to my career and projects and financially and so on. um And once that stopped,
Speaker: had to stop it for you know health reasons and mental reasons and just to have a little break. um i entered automatically in a different phase of my life my age and who i was professionally well and yes the crisis started and obviously at the beginning one wants to find the reason like what did i do wrong because obviously we always look for the blame and we did something wrong you know and they do it right and you do it wrong, right? yeah
Speaker: So I start looking and what was wrong, what was wrong and actually now at this stage I can tell you I did nothing wrong. Actually I did everything perfect because any business can go through a crisis. Even if you have a business plan and everything gets set up and you protect it and you do this and you do that, you're gonna go through a crisis. yeah so hearing that from someone who has economic background saying hey Nadia even the biggest companies they go through crisis no took that edge of you you know I was like okay so it wasn't just a huge mistake that I did no so you know first of all yes
Speaker: You just go through a crisis because that's the that's the way businesses live and die in lifespan. And then I think it's important to consider our personal development, what age we are, where are we in life at that moment, who are we becoming, what have we done, and maybe what we want to do. And when you get that all things merged, you go through a deep journey.
Speaker: dark forest right because many things it's your business it's your personality it's who you want to represent as a professional out right and what are your values and then Was it what I was representing 10 years ago exactly what I want to represent now?
Speaker: No, because 10 years ago, I didn't know about your architecture. 10 years ago, we didn't know about this, about that. So I must say that, and probably everyone who's listening to this and went through crisis will confirm it that...
Speaker: I'm lucky to have had this crisis. yeah If not, I would have not stopped. I would have carried on with the Emirates. I would have carried on pushing, ah going maybe in a slightly wrong direction.
Speaker: And with this time, which I had really time to think, to cry, to shout, to throw myself on the floor, to go through panic attacks, to stand up again, to look for solutions, to work on myself.
Speaker: And not only professionally, but personally, physically, mentally. um I came being someone else, you know, and and that's a huge value for for my life, for my work, for for the planet, because now it's like, I think with much more clarity than than before.
Speaker: so Yeah, that's amazing. there's There's a lot of things that we can unpack to dive in deeper, but I think it's very valuable to see that you started something, the right intention, going for it, having success.
Speaker: And then it sounds like I'm maybe wrong, but that you kind of started to drift a little bit of your true purpose. yeah And that's and like when you talk about a crisis, usually you you you drift off of what you're supposed to be doing for because maybe money or other reasons or whatever.
Speaker: And there's no one to blame for that. It's just a normal process. And then you go so far that all of a sudden God will give you a major challenge. And I think the whole world had it, which which was COVID.
Speaker: where everyone was like, oh, what is this? And then, oh, what am I supposed to do? Or you have time to think. And then you can do two things. You can go back to your normal life and probably still be struggling and and and have a lot of pain. Or you can go like you did, just ask deeper questions. what What can I do better? where what What's the next step? How can I reinvent myself?
Speaker: Not so much as like doing something completely different, but where can I add more value? Because the market's always changing. People are getting more professional, like in in the regeneration space.
Speaker: 10 years ago, it was nowhere where it is today. And there's so much more knowledge. And now with AI, we can just get everything. um So we have to kind of juggle all that that that and then rebalance and find yourself again.
Speaker: and then go full force forward and then a new amazing things happen. So I can totally relate to to what we said about the crisis that can... That crisis has an amazing purpose to to bring you back to where you should be.
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Speaker: Did you go through crisis like that? Well, yeah, I was ah traveling the world for a while. i was i was doing like a freelance job. I was surfing. I was living a good life.
Speaker: But I wasn't truly doing what I was supposed to be doing, which is working with clients all over the world. And and oh that's at least what I think I should be doing now. and regenerating the planet.
Speaker: And so, um yeah, I became very sick. I went to the Amazon rainforest and got a dengue fever. No way. My whole life collapsed after that. Yeah, I had no money. that in your life you can get dengue twice. you don't I think you can have it more, but it becomes more dangerous or more severe. i I met a guy in Indonesia who was a surfer. He had it like five, six times. And he was in like the tick of where there's a lot of tangy fever.
Speaker: He was like, I'm not moving anywhere because he loves the island that he was in. But anyways, yeah, I think crises are not necessary. Like if you can stay in alignment with your truth, you you may not have to go through a crisis. But if you go off track a little bit of what you're supposed to be doing, at some point you' you you'll get a big knockdown um and then you fall back and then you can be smart and find more what you're supposed to be doing like you did or...
Speaker: Or can you go back to what you were doing before and probably have that crisis coming back and back. And again and again. Yeah. So that's very interesting. But let's let's dive a little deeper into like you you started as an animal architect and then you went through the crisis and now you understand neuroarchitecture way deeper. I'm really interested. What is neuroarchitecture?
Speaker: How did you find out about it? So, Neuroarchitecture is pretty young field in the science. It has around 20 years of of research and data. There are some great architects and designers that you know are pioneering this study. And Sussman is one of them. i don't want to make more mentions of names because I don't want to get them twisted. That's okay.
Speaker: but it's something that it's easy to to find. There is another lady which is called Andrea de Pavia. I think she's originally from Brazil, making also great work, great discoveries. She's running an educational platform. So i would invite any designer or architect just to to type in your architecture and see what's there. There are some podcasts and and videos on YouTube, so the information is there and some books.
Speaker: But the the point is these architects, they started to write down and kind of bring a certain consistency into the knowledge of how the built environment affects the human and most of all, how to build the environment, it's perceived through our brain, right? because What we're not really understanding or we don't want to see it that way is that our brain is something pretty primitive.
Speaker: It obviously has evolved a lot since the ah you know cave times, but still the way it functions, it's pretty primitive and pretty intuitive. And the fact that we're living, how are we living in that environment with that technology, with internet and so on, it's very new for our brain.
Speaker: We have not evolved in this. So we're talking about several decades, maybe a couple of hundred of years in different, you know, adjustments to our brain. but the basic stays the basic, you know, it's it's just that way. So what does neuroarchitecture, studies ah how the brain reacts to that design of that environment where you are in.
Speaker: And unfortunately, humans, we went in in the design field into designing ah you know things because aesthetically we thought they were different or because there was a trend, you know like those lofts, open spaces, open office. I mean, i don't know what was the beginning, the origin of that idea and who had it and for what. But neurologically, if you study our brain, it's wrong. It's not done for us. It's not done for our efficiency. It's not done for our productivity, it's not done for our sense of comfort and safety. net
Speaker: Open space, it's the worst you can do. So then when we went in in the design, you know, a couple of decades ago, those industrial lofts, like in in Chicago, you know, that was very famous, you know, after the factories and everything.
Speaker: Yes, visually, as a trend, if they tell you this is beautiful, this is modern, rich people buy it and so on, You kind of get alert and it's kind of, oh yeah, I like lofts.
Speaker: But then do you truly feel good in a loft? Does that bring you that sense of coziness, of being at home, feeling safe? You know, all those windows, a whole wall of windows. Your brain doesn't perceive that as safety, right?
Speaker: So are you there?
Speaker: Oh, sorry, we lost you for a few seconds. So we can um we can pick up pick in again about the loft, why people think it's good or not.
Speaker: Exactly. So in the in the loft, you know we we kind of thought that we're very attractive. And then when you have a whole wall of glass, your brain doesn't like it. Your brain doesn't perceive that as safety.
Speaker: So we have to discern what is what we think we like because there is a trend and what is really healthy and what our brain and that biology of ours really likes and it's safe for it.
Speaker: and try to combine it, right? There is a beautiful example and I think this many people can relate and understand. It's when you design a bathroom, okay? A bathroom for a human being, for any brain, yours, mine, all of your listeners.
Speaker: Our brains know that a bathroom is a kind of danger zone, okay? Because it's slippery, it has water, it has a bathtub. Where do accidents happen?
Speaker: In the bathroom, right? So our brain is programmed to go into a bathroom in a more kind of alert you know, emotion. It's not something you feel, it's not something you think. It's it's absolutely not conscious. But your body, it's more, you know, stable. And now, if you do the bathroom finished with tiles of high gloss, reflecting a lot, again, that is for our brain more danger because glossy, slippery.
Speaker: That's how we we associate these two things. So, If you enter to a bathroom which is high gloss, your your body doesn't feel safe.
Speaker: Your brain doesn't feel safe. You do not regulate in that bathroom. So if you want to go and have a nice bath and feel relaxed, you will not achieve it on the deeper level because your brain will always be conscious.
Speaker: So, for instance, interior designers which design bathroom for elder people don't do gloss, do matte, do something that you know that it's not slippery, your brain loves it, and there are less problems.
Speaker: So, this is what neuroarchitecture does in terms of our spaces. and ah Like, unfortunately, i hope this is changing in our world, but when we go back to architecture as a study, as a field, it's basically human-centered. okay At university, you will never ever hear anyone talking about a design which is not around a human. right It's all about it.
Speaker: When I was at university and I and i was you know already diverting to that side, my professors, they didn't know what I was talking about. No. You know, like, you what are you doing? Quarantine center for animals? It's like, what? They had no idea. One of the anecdotes, this is this is a great story. So when I invented the title of my thesis, I went to my professor.
Speaker: And he said, I've got a good news and a bad news for you. I'm like, okay, so what is the bad news? And he said, well, the bad news, I know nothing about quarantine centers for animals or veterinary architecture. So the bad news, it's on your own. You have to do your own research. like Don't count academically on us.
Speaker: which was fine with me because like to do my research. is like, okay, I can do that. And I said, okay, so now what is the good news? And he said, the day you're going to be presenting your theses, and you know usually there is like five professors, you know there is like this jury ah judging what you're saying and what you have designed. He said, none of them are going to make your questions.
Speaker: because none of them will understand what you say.
Speaker: exactly it was like that. i went there with my boards, with you know my center, all designed, I presented and there was silence. you know And I was like, okay, can someone break the silence and just make at least one question? oh That's interesting.
Speaker: I think it's very cool to see what, but then well, you're coming from the angle of understanding animals, right? And you did your study, your thesis, and then a lot of work from that.
Speaker: And then... you got into neuro architecture. I just I find it very fascinating to see because that's what it one of my friends who ah who helps companies to redesign their offices and even their company structures and all that.
Speaker: And he made his statement, which I found his name is Bert. We should get him on the show, too. But he says, like, he starts every presentation like we are able to recreate artificially environments for animals such as zoos. We're really reasonably good at at doing that for animals because animals have certain needs.
Speaker: If they don't have the yeah the certain environment, they will die or they will be not reproducing. So we became quite good at at designing those spaces. But then when it comes to our own life, why are we...
Speaker: Why are we not doing that? like Why are we kind of putting ourselves in squares and boxes? Whereas couple of hundreds of years ago, we were mostly living in nature, in probably in caves, and in primitive structures.
Speaker: And we were always in in connection with with nature. So I'm curious to understand from you. of Because we want things...
Speaker: easy and simple and it's just for our own let's say convenience but it's for the it's for the convenience of that brain it's for the convenience like the brain you know the mind it's because i want something you know and that convenience of that ego because we want to do, I don't want to do silly things, I don't want to do cleaning, I don't want to do cooking. I put it in the microwave because cooking it's losing time because you know it's not convenient.
Speaker: But then if you go back, what is cooking and what cooking meant in our culture and how cooking developed and who did it and with what energy and why do we say that we remember the taste of something that our grandmother would cook?
Speaker: Because she cooked it. She cooked it, she chopped it, she was there doing you know that batter. And now what we do, we go to the supermarket. It doesn't taste the same.
Speaker: So I think we went a lot into that direction of making our life as efficient as we can because we want to do more things.
Speaker: But yeah these the more things which we want to do, it's not something which is actually nourishing us. Because what do we do more? Work. well Work brings more screen. yeah Yeah. So, you know, and but were we're going off tangent. Neuroarchitecture, it's just to to to place that correctly on the board.
Speaker: I find in neuroarchitecture, because as I say, it's focused on people still and not on animals. And what I'm trying to do is to find solutions for that animal architecture.
Speaker: Because yes, we have established welfare, we have established practices, we have established rules and regulations on spaces, on square meters, you know on different, on humidity, on light.
Speaker: but still that's again that's our convenience so many times so I'm trying to see how much of that neuroarchitecture can be applied to the animals directly. And then obviously it's the keepers and the human visitors that benefit from a correct design, especially in a park.
Speaker: are yeah feel like That's interesting. So what type of projects are you focusing on now and what are you doing differently, let's say, than 10 years ago?
Speaker: Oh, yeah, I love that question. It's great to look into your designs from, you know, like previous years. And i think the older one gets, the more pleasure you get from that.
Speaker: And beginning when I was just working a couple of years, I didn't want to go back to those projects, you know, because I knew that they weren't as good as I would do them now because ah obviously we learn and evolve.
Speaker: And I would be like, oh, I could have done that better. But yeah, but after 10 years, when I look at a project that I done a decade decade ago, and I've got that empathy and that compassion to myself and saying, where have you been? What have you done? You know, what have you designed, constructed? And, and you know, build that thing around you with my own hands and my own financial resources.
Speaker: Actually, when I look at the design, it's like, that's not very good, but I'm still so proud of it. I'm like, look at the evolution. That's that's the value.
Speaker: so So what I i would say is that... Previously, i was very much concerned about designing those habitats according, as I say, to the world welfare rules. So we do have Zoo and Aquarium Association, which they made huge effort and lot of work to as I say, gather the data, say what are the measurements referred to them.
Speaker: i on or rhino or elephant habitat but as I say they are correct but they're missing that you know energy that that I don't know how to call it you know that other layer of what we know and and working in in creating homostasis you know basically with that environment it's We don't understand the electromagnetic field. We don't understand the energy. you know People, they still don't want to talk about this. They don't want to talk about the fact that my thoughts are influencing your thoughts and that the other way around.
Speaker: and even though we're sharing a screen, there is a huge connection between us right now. And people, they don't want to understand this. They want to understand they've got a message on their phone just like that.
Speaker: That's energy, yes, but what's happening here, it's not. yeah You know, it's crazy. So when you go and you interact with an animal, obviously, if you tune in you you can receive things. You can receive some type of information. It's just we don't understand it again because it's our logical brain.
Speaker: you know, about the prefrontal cortex that has grown over, that's why we can speak and use language, that it's actually blocking us. Yeah. You know, so... um now it's more i know perfectly what are the welfare rules and as i say the the measurements and the sizes and now it's that deeper layer to say what is the land telling me where is what are the plants telling me where is that like why that animal in that country you know basically and this is this is something which i have been going lately through i've got a potential client ah
Speaker: with an African species in a completely different part of our globe. And I had only one to question him in my mind. Why these animals in this country?
Speaker: Why? don't want to know why. Why not any other? Like, what is the reason? And the more the questions you ask, you might receive answers. And you get them, you know, and maybe those answers you think, I'm crazy, how this doesn't relate, this isn't true, this is my imagination, you know, I'm inventing things.
Speaker: But when you understand how energy works and what is consciousness, with learning and with practice, you can actually different what is your thought, what is your brain inventing, what is actually getting into your brain from the outside.
Speaker: no So having that ability ah tune in I think this is something which is a game changer for me. And if you're asking, what am I doing differently? i'm tuning in What I'm discovering each time it's a new thing.
Speaker: So maybe in a decade when we have this conversation again, you'll be i will be able to tell you, yes, this, this and that. For now, it's just it's just listening and it's fascinating. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, think... ah Asking the right questions is very, very important when you work with clients rather than people pleasing and being like, oh, yeah, you want this? OK, I'll do it. But you ask them, why? Why are you why do you care?
Speaker: Are you going to pursue this really? like why yeah I think finding out the the why the the purpose, the reason the deeper reasons behind one why someone wants to do something is is very important to understand.
Speaker: But on that note, would say... It's part of the success of the project. yeah Yes, it's very true. but then I think it's important to mention that we also need to differentiate. It's always about you know making questions. You have to question everything and you have to question yourself.
Speaker: And yes, doing the things for the right reason, but then you must understand, least in my field, it's like that, that I cannot force a client or an investor to have the same point of view and do the things for the same good reason that I'm doing it.
Speaker: Because our perception is different. And I did mention it to you before that, you know, being, let's call it a zoo designer in a way, I do question get questions like, oh, how do you feel about designing prison for animals? So, you know, those animals are not free or, you know, why are you doing this?
Speaker: And my response always is that it's not my place to be the judge of that institution. I'm not the one which invented zoological garden.
Speaker: And I'm not here to say, oh, you shouldn't be existing, therefore, because i don't agree with zoological gardens, I will not produce a good design for your animal. It doesn't work like that. it's I compare it to vet.
Speaker: A vet will not say no to a neglected animal just because the owner neglected that animal. The vet will treat it. So I'm like a vet, I'm coming to treat that architecture, I'm coming to treat that habitat and make it livable for that animal.
Speaker: I don't care about the institution, you know, it's good enough to try to do something in that habitat for that species. So sometimes you might get clients which They want to change things but because the pressure is there or because they have money or because they have to do this investment or they want to do the investment to gain more money because they want to attract clients or visitors.
Speaker: and How do you stand in front of that person, usually from a different background, from a different cultural background, with a different mentality, and you start explaining, this is wrong, you're not doing this correct, you have to connect, you have to understand planet Earth, you know, there is energy.
Speaker: They're going to look at you like crazy. You're not going to get the job. Someone else who doesn't know about this profession will do it because they have to do it anyway.
Speaker: And everything went wrong. So having the right reasons, yes, but not always. You have to flag them out.
Speaker: um I fully agree with that. Thank you for calling that out because ah I've been going through that same... Well, understanding this year where in the past I may have like tried to convince people to do regenerative gardening because it's good for the planet and we have to do it for the environment, this and that. but it's, it's good to have that intention, but it doesn't necessarily need to be, uh, communicated because they're like, i don't care. I just want my garden to be low maintenance and, and function well. Yeah. and at And at the beginning I was kind of more frustrated about it or I, but I'm, I'm now at the point where I'm actually leveraging this, what we just explained. And I, I, there's actually some research about it. It's called spiral, um,
Speaker: I forgot the name. oh I'll add it to the... I'll i'll come up with it later. Spiral Dynamic is the is the name. There's a whole book about it that people wear different hats at different times in their lives. And yeah if they are at work, let's say someone is a real estate investor,
Speaker: he has to wear the hat of like, um ah I have to make sure that financially this thing works because if we don't, we're going to go bankrupt or we'll lose money, whatever. So he's wearing that hat. Maybe when he comes home, he wears the I'm a bird watcher and I love biodiversity hat.
Speaker: But when he's in his job, he's wearing that hat. So me communicating like, oh, your project is going to be good for the environment and for the birds and the biodiversity. It's gonna go in and out and be like, we need someone else. this is We're gonna lose money with this. Exactly. And now the cool thing is like, you can still achieve your own personal ah purpose, which for me, it's about biodiversity, restoring ecosystems, making sure that we have a planet for next generations.
Speaker: But I can turn that around. And like I spoke at ah the real estate conference and and I explained why regenerative design is super important for them as real estate investors because it's going lower maintenance, it's going to increase property value and and I'm giving them all the financial benefits and barely talked about ecosystems and regeneration or like the the other parts of it.
Speaker: And that's really empowering because I think when you're doing something that's that is part of your purpose, it will also be part of other people's purposes or intentions.
Speaker: and That's what I've found in the past. I thought like, oh, it has to be good for biodiversity. So now it has to be like very expensive. But it's not true. You can actually bring all the perspectives together at some point.
Speaker: And not everyone has to agree that, oh, we're only doing this for the money or we're only doing it for biodiversity. Everyone can have their own perspective on the project. And that's actually what makes it very powerful. and And that will be the real success of the project when, um let's say, the the government sees that, oh, this is adding to general public appeal, and the investors see it's going to help make us money. The ecologists say, well, this is it going to be good for the environment.
Speaker: Like you bring in all the different angles and and now you have an amazing project that is carried by different people. So yeah, I'm going a little off topic there, but thank you for going in that direction.
Speaker: But I want to understand from your perspective, now that you're back in business, well, it's been you probably never went out of business, but what what do you how do you use these
Speaker: ideas I want to say techniques, but it's not really a technique. Tools. I don't know tools. What is that? Tools. They're tools. Yeah, tools. How do you use this type of tool um to grow your business?
Speaker: Well, it's it's just there is a saying that a lie which is repeated a hundred times convert converts it to truth. Wow. So my approach was, ah well, i'm the I'm the first architect in the world talking about neuroarchitecture in animal context. And I was like, okay, how do you approach that? You know, it's it's pretty difficult just to stand there and just say, hey, you have to believe me. So ah I'm just... i'm just
Speaker: sinking those little stones bit by bit. And that's through social media. Through social media, our conversation, YouTube, just talking more. And each person I speak with, they're like, oh, neuroarchitecture, what is this? And that's a great gain for me because that's one more person which heard that definition. And now maybe you're gonna say it somewhere and somewhere and somewhere. And you know and then we create that c yeah So basically now what I'm doing with my my network, my field, it's just explaining them how neuroarchitecture can be applied, how do the animals benefit, how do the keepers benefit, you know, the the people which are behind those animals, because that's something which we don't see and we don't speak. It's either the animal, because that's why we go to a park, And then it's the visitor because it's me. It's my experience. I paid the entrance. I took my family. i want, I want, I this, I that.
Speaker: Who's taking care of that animal? Who fed that animal? Who knows this animal? Who knows that this animal today, it's having a rough day. You know, there is a human. And these people, unfortunately, they're very underestimated.
Speaker: They're not valued theyre work it's not valued. Their work Their work, very often it's physical because you know you have to do the maintenance around the animals. Those are big animals many times.
Speaker: um it's It's you working with a live being. Animals are sentient beings. So imagine if you have a companion animal, like here you can see my little cat or something, you get attached. You you stop loving your animals. It's just how we work. It's our biology. It's our oxytocin.
Speaker: And these people working in the settings, they also develop emotions towards that animal, right? If you're working in a zoo for 10 years with a group of chimps, trust me, that chimp, it's your best friend.
Speaker: You know everything about him. So, you know, these people, I have many friends which are keepers. they're facing a lot of work-life balance problems because they're very loaded. they're They have the emotional load because if your animal is sick, you're going to be thinking about that animal at your home.
Speaker: you know If your colleague from your desk in front of you gets sick, you don't think about him when you go home. You close the office, there you go. So, you know, it's it's very emotional. It has a big strain on these humans. And unfortunately, it has to be said very often, depending obviously on the country, on the zoological institution, but they're not very well paid.
Speaker: And they're the base. They're behind the scenes doing this work. So I think that, i well not only think, I feel and I know that neuroarchitecture is bringing many answers to their problems, to their work routine, to the amount of movements in and out they have to do because something was designed wrongly. It's hookkeepers and when you're looking after wild the animals, it's the visibility of those animals.
Speaker: So how how much do you see and you can control that whole habitat from the outside? Do you have vision like windows, revision windows? or you know like Can you look into that?
Speaker: That's super important. It's like if there is a problem in a habitat, you cannot be running the whole you know building to see what is the noise. You need to be able to react now.
Speaker: And that is something which was not taken into consideration. you know it It all comes from that historical you know background of how Zulus evolved you know and fifty sixty years ago and and and what we saw there, it's just tragic, right?
Speaker: so So we made a lot of progress, but zoological gardens, if they don't go through a massive transformation when it comes not only to animal keeping, but as to the business model, and I'm pretty sure for you, it's quite interesting because you're into these things.
Speaker: it's ah how they can be hubs in the because what we have to remember it's let's say the majority of zoos they're placed within a big city right or within a city so and when when you talk about the old zoos they've got the vegetation in place, great mature trees and shrubs and you know like great vegetation. They've got the infrastructure, they've got all the resources, water, electricity, gas and so on. They've got great real estate placements.
Speaker: Like Warsaw Zoo, it's in one of the most expensive now areas. Nice, hey? So we've got everything there. And still, I'm sorry for saying that, and there is probably a huge society from my zoological world that's gonna hate me for saying this, but I don't understand why you have to pay to enter those parks.
Speaker: It's a park. It's in the middle of the city. It's our infrastructure. We, the humans, which are living here. Are you paying to go to play on a playground with your children?
Speaker: No. Why would you pay to go to a zoo? Ah, because it costs money to maintain the air animals. Yes, it does. Well, that's the government part to look for solutions.
Speaker: We're running in times when we have to change paradigms, and we see that in medical care, we see that in education, we see that in many things. so And this is one of the tools, as I say, to make these changes. And parks and...
Speaker: city infrastructure and governments, they should be more interested in making our lives better in terms of well-being, because the healthier we are, the less we're gonna cause them with our health issues. so This isn't about... I don't know how to you know kind of unwrap this. I suppose you have maybe better language for it. But the whole model, it's just wrong.
Speaker: Where to get the money from? i don't know, I'm not interested in that. But those places, they should be open, available for everyone because they're in they're the part of the infrastructure of the town.
Speaker: And we have to be able to connect with nature. And what's more, as long as we will be paying for something, we're paying for a service, we're paying for entertainment.
Speaker: If we're paying, there is a product on the other side. If there is a product, we have expectations because we paid for it. right If it's for free, are you moaning that you went to the forest and you didn't see squirrels?
Speaker: No, because you didn't pay for it. You're in a forest. You might see one or you might not see one. But you paid the entrance to a zoo. You have to see that gorilla, right?
Speaker: So, you know, if the zoos would be unpaid, we could use them as actually wellness centers, as regenerative centers, as psychological centers.
Speaker: We could do their sports, we could do their picnics, we could do community stuff and still enjoy the animals and connect the animals as to an animal and not a commodity which I paid for.
Speaker: Wow, that's a very interesting perspective. Yeah, think that's great. um So we're almost nearing the end of the interview. I still had one question for you that I'm excited but ah that i yeah I'd love to hear. Like, what are you most excited about for the next 10 years in in your design work business? And yeah, what exciting project are you currently working on?
Speaker: Okay, so I can give you a little hint. ah Let's do some promotion. I'm making baby steps to create an academy, so an online educational platform.
Speaker: There are many, right, which are teaching us things we can enroll in these courses that are different, you know, variety we can choose, and and it's absolutely great. ah But I haven't seen anything related to animal architecture.
Speaker: Yes, we can learn about biophilic design, about this design, about you know many academies, right? But I haven't seen anything about animal design.
Speaker: So because I do receive... a lot of emails and messages from young students or just qualified architects or landscapers reaching out and saying that they love what I do, they would like to enroll in this profession, they're curious of how it happened and so on.
Speaker: I just see that there is a need for it. It's not only business, but there is like genuine interest in people and, and, and, you know, like the young generation, they're so different. I love them. I'm fascinated about who's coming after us. You know, yeah I think we are.
Speaker: Well, not think, we are like, you know, the sandwich generation and we always have been, you know you know, things were coming out and we were the first generation to try it.
Speaker: and And the first generation to see what were the problems caused by that new thing. So cell phones, Internet, Facebook, book you know, we were the first one.
Speaker: who's 15 years old using Facebook? They don't. It's not for them anymore. It's finished, right? So I think that you know the young generation, it's coming with such a different understanding of our world.
Speaker: They're much more sensitive. they They see more, they listen more, they feel more. They've got different values. They've got different approach to things. They have different approach to money. Try to bribe Gen Z. Like, try to bribe them with money. They're like, what?
Speaker: No, I'm not interested in money. you know We were trying to bribe 30 years ago. Yes, please. you know I'll be the first one. So, of course, it was like that. It was the 80s, the 90s. That's how it worked.
Speaker: And this young generation, it's really understanding, you know, this topic. So I just thought, okay, my boutique studio, it's it's fabulous because I keep it very limited and Limited in a sense, I don't take too many projects at once because I like to manage them on my own, have control on them. So it's not like I'm running 10 things at the same time or delegating things.
Speaker: So I have, you know, that capacity to do as much as I can. There's so much to do and so many people which can do it. I thought we have to just spread it and share it.
Speaker: So the aim is to create this academy and to be able to launch it and just prepare future architects to do animal architecture even better than I'm doing it.
Speaker: Because what I'm trying to do, so my mission before I die, it's to gather as much information as I can, you know, just as a scientist to put everything together and then just kind of leave it behind.
Speaker: That's the legacy which I would like to be. Not zoos, not parks, not enclosures, because I do think that we shouldn't be also designing like for another 20, 30 years, which was something which was in fashion pre-COVID.
Speaker: So pre-COVID, maybe in your industry as well, when we spoke about design and investment in this kind of parks, we were saying, oh, we have to make a plan, you know, for another 20, 30 years.
Speaker: Well, guess what? Now I'm saying don't do it. Don't build infrastructure for 20, 30 years because we don't know what's going to happen in 10 years. And in 30 years, we might not even have zoos because something will change. We don't know.
Speaker: We really don't know, so why would you make such a huge investment and such a huge you know damage to planet Earth you know with all this concrete and with all this building system we have, if it's not going to be you know there in 20 years?
Speaker: We don't know. you know like Do something much lighter. So what I'm trying to do for these people is gather as much as we know from our playground, put it into a place and just give it to them to build on that foundation what they consider the planet Earth's needs at that time. Luckily, i will be dead by that, right? well that's That's basically my mission, not the architecture.
Speaker: The architecture comes and goes, you know, it's it's not relevant. As long as the animal is happy, I'm happy. You know, it's not about design in my case. No. Well, the design is for the animals and not for... her ah That's usually what good design is, not about making it look good. It's about the functionality of...
Speaker: the user in this case the animal more than anything else um yeah but that's awesome i'm i'm super excited to follow your journey along it and see more of what you're going to be doing and yeah so where can people follow you how can they get in touch with you if they're saying i'm building a zoo or i'm just about to do something with animals how can they find you Okay, so there is a webpage which is animalspacedesign.com.
Speaker: So I invite everyone just to dive into that webpage. Everyone says it's beautiful, so that makes me very proud. And the the interesting thing is there is a section which is called free downloadables.
Speaker: So there you can find my articles where I'm sharing my experience, sharing the tools I'm using, explaining how I use them. Those articles, those PDFs are downloadable so anyone can make use of them and just...
Speaker: whatever they need it for and then yes on social media so you you can try to look me out i think the easiest is linkedin because that's our professional platform but of course there is something on instagram over it's going through a tiny crisis which i'm trying to manage so what's that's how you can you can find me nice i love it all right any final pieces of advice for our listeners uh general advice if they want to do something that you're doing?
Speaker: Well, I would say that let's remember that animals, it's not just exotic wildlife, beautiful animals that we see and it's a lion, it's a tiger, it's a gorilla.
Speaker: It's also the cat which you have rescued. You know, it's also that senior dog of your neighbor, which you noticing maybe something. It's also the birds in wintertime, depending on the climate you're living in, that might not have all the resources and food.
Speaker: You know, maybe the foxes in the forest. So animals are everywhere. yeah You just have to see them. And when you wake up, that empathy for any animal, you know even it's a tiger or a rat, you just have to have that empathy. Those are sentient beings, each one of them with a different sense of consciousness, with a different level, let's say, of consciousness.
Speaker: And life is life, and we no one to be judging it. And just because we're more evolved and we have that human brain that processes, we think that we're higher in the hierarchy.
Speaker: We're not. Because here I will add plants and that's something you're good at Trees, they have their consciousness. Forests, they have their own language. They communicate, right? So i think the message is that we are all interconnected. This is something now very trendy to say, try to see that in that way, you know, that humanity, it's just a percentage of that life spectrum and that consciousness of that planet Earth. I saw somewhere this amazing diagram. I don't, shame I didn't save it.
Speaker: And it was, it was a circle with, All the species, live species in the planet we have, like animals and plants and everything, and humans, you know, we were just one tiny line.
Speaker: You know, just see that for your own eyes. And when you you see that way and you bring that empathy to any animal, that's when you make the difference. And it doesn't have to be the lion in the zoo, it can be your own cat. You don't understand cats that are very difficult, right? And try from simple things in your own playground.
Speaker: Yeah, and I love that. The life of your cat interesting in your house, you know, that's your mini-see already. Yeah, that's super cool. I think, ah yeah, it's ah it's a tiger too, in a way. So, ah yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, Nadia, thank you very much for your time and explaining everything around neuroarchitecture and working with animals. It's super cool, very inspiring. So thank you very much and hope to see you again on the podcast.
Speaker: Thank you much. Let's not wait 10 years. Yes, let's not wait 10 years. Yes, thank you for the opportunity and lovely you running this channel. Thank you.
