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Starmer's 100-day report card, with Lord David Frost
1.7k Plays5 days ago
The start of a new government sets a tone that is often difficult to change. And the tone of Keir Starmer’s first 100 days has been dire, reinforcing a feeling of malaise across the United Kingdom.
To help with his first report card, Will is joined by David Frost, a Conservative member of the House of Lords and previously the Europe adviser to Boris Johnson and his Chief Negotiator for Exiting the EU in 2019 and 2020.
Follow Will Kingston and Fire at Will on social media here.
Read The Spectator Australia here.
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Transcript
00:00:19
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will, a safe space for dangerous conversations. I'm Will Kingston. If for some reason you are not already following the show on a streaming service, you can find us everywhere from Spotify to Apple Podcasts to YouTube. If you like what you hear here, please consider giving us a glowing 5 star review. If you don't like what you hear here, please forget I said anything.
00:00:46
Speaker
The idea of measuring a leader by the accomplishments of his or her first 100 days goes back to 1933 and FDR, when a compliant and fearful Congress quickly passed huge chunks of legislation designed to drag the country out of the Great Depression. More or less, every Western leader since has received a 100 day report card. Donald Trump said it was a ridiculous way to judge a new leader, and he's probably right.
00:01:14
Speaker
At the same time, the start of a new government sets a tone that is often difficult to change. And the tone of Keir Starmer's first 100 days has been dire, reinforcing a feeling of malaise across the United Kingdom. To help me with his early report card, I am joined by David Frost, a conservative member of the House of Lords and previously the Europe advisor to Boris Johnson and his chief negotiator for exiting the EU in 2019 and 2020.
00:01:43
Speaker
David welcome to far it will great thanks for having me. To start is this a fair test what can we glean from the early days of a got a new government and perhaps what can't we.
00:01:57
Speaker
So, well, I suppose you referred to FDR, but actually the first 100 days, I suppose it was Napoleon and the run up to Waterloo. I don't think it's been quite as bad as that for Keir Starmer, but it's obviously not been great. And I think it is a fair test. You know, obviously you can't expect a lot to be delivered in the 100 days, but you learn very quickly.
00:02:20
Speaker
you know, has the government prepared? Does he know what he wants to do? What's the style? What can we expect? You get an early view of ministers. So I think the judgment is a reasonable one, even if you can't necessarily take everything from it. It's telling you something important about the government. And actually, I think we have learned something important about this government in these first hundred days. And what is that? It's that they didn't prepare.
00:02:48
Speaker
They don't have a very clear philosophy for what they want to do. And they have not, how to put it, they have not really, you know, they haven't got a grip on the administrative machine. And I think, you know, we've learned a certain amount about Keir Starmer and, you know, it's not obvious he's landed well with the British people so far. Perhaps one could say that.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, we will get to what we've learned about Starmer in a moment, but i I want to touch on that administrative machine that you mentioned and how you get to grips with it. Help me help me understand the the mechanics of moving from opposition to government. Why is it difficult? And then what are some of the practical challenges that normal people may not fully appreciate?
00:03:34
Speaker
So I think the big difference between opposition and government is that opposition is all politics. It's principally words rather than making things happen. And so it's much easier to agree positions, work out what you're going to say.
00:03:53
Speaker
make an impact. When you're in government, it's different. You've got a huge administrative machine beneath you. You are committed. you know Your words matter, and some ministers have discovered that, I guess, in the last few weeks. you know Words count. They're not just things for the media.
00:04:13
Speaker
And so it requires a complete sort of shift of mentality. And you know historically, British governments you know often have difficulties in this this early period. The shift from opposition to government is not accomplished well. There is a mechanism where opposition teams can go and talk to the cabinet secretary and the cabinet office, which is the kind of <unk> coordinating body in the British government.
00:04:43
Speaker
you know to get them ready, to give them some idea what to expect for the administrative machine to say, this is what we can do for you. But see often, you know, unless you've experienced government is very difficult to use those sessions effectively. And I think one of the interesting things about this government is, you know, it's been 14 years since labor will last in power. Many of them have not been in government, don't know what it's like.
00:05:11
Speaker
And I think that's one of the reasons they they've struggled. Last thing maybe, governments always have And particularly around the leader, they always have personal rivalries. They always have people who want to position themselves. They always have people jockeying for position and influence. And the only people who can get a grip on that is the leader. And if you empower them, they're chief of staff. And clearly that's not works in this case. We've seen all these rivalries. We've seen jockeying for position. And I suspect there's a bit more to play out on that yet, to be honest.
00:05:48
Speaker
What have we learned about Stama the man in his early days as Prime Minister? I think we've learned that he yeah know he's a bit wooden. I think maybe we knew that before, I guess. He doesn't think on his feet very effectively. And I think there is a degree of ah what's the right word here, a degree of vindictiveness almost in some of the positions he's taken. Doesn't like being challenged, that's clear. Finds it uncomfortable defending himself. Seems to regard challenges almost illegitimate in some way.
00:06:31
Speaker
And you know I think these are qualities that tend not to land very well wait with British voters. They like a personality. Boris Johnson was obviously the exemplar of that. They like somebody who they feel they could get on with. And I don't know that anybody is feeling that about Keir Starmer at the moment. So you know the personality is one thing. I think what i you know if I was a Labour politician, I'd be worrying that you know Stama didn't show the sort of necessary flexibility, the ability to to think on his feet, the ability to adjust positions, the ability to explain what he was trying to do in a way that really lands with people. That's that's what would worry me after this 10 good days. But it's not obvious he has the ability to change that.
00:07:24
Speaker
Yes, I agree. And you said he is wooden and I think that's an understatement. Let me pull the lens back. And this is obviously not just a UK phenomenon. If you look at the US, we've got someone like Kamala Harris who may very well be the next president who is not a good communicator. In Australia, you've got someone like Anthony Albanese, who's another wooden, unimpressive communicator. It doesn't feel across the Western world, or at least across the Anglosphere, that we have the same calibre of communicator, that we have the same types of charismatic personalities that we've had in the past.
00:08:02
Speaker
Are we just going through an unfortunate bad trot in Western politics, or are there systemic reasons that are bringing more of these, dare I say, mediocre people to the top of of politics? I think there probably are some systemic reasons. I think politics, you know at least on the left,
00:08:22
Speaker
does, you know, has selected, I guess, for people who, how to put this, you know, people who value conventional opinions, who are not really willing to sort of move off them, who have perhaps very conventional views about issues like the rule of law, how to interpret that in modern politics. And of course, the general feeling that, you know, people should you know have personal lives if not kind of completely beyond reproach, at least capable of receiving a degree of exposure. And I think all this has produced conventional people to some extent. I do think also there that there's something bigger which is that people
00:09:10
Speaker
you know we're We're losing conviction politicians. We're losing politicians who know what they want to do from their heart and can explain it. and you know It's interesting in British politics at the moment, the only real conviction politician in the last election, I guess, was Nigel Farage, who knows very clearly what he thinks and can talk fluently and convincingly about this. And I do think some of this has come from the but kind of bureaucratization of politics, the sense that politics is just managerial, it's about
00:09:46
Speaker
you know, keeping managing a system without really trying to change it. And it produces managerial politicians. It doesn't produce people with strong beliefs who want to get things done, know what they think, and can explain it. And I think that's what we're seeing to a very large extent.
00:10:06
Speaker
I agree with that, but is it is it a supply problem or is it a demand problem? Is it that this system is now have it has a culture of producing these types of people, or are we less as a populace forgiving of people who may have some some very forthright opinions, but they genuinely know what they believe in and then they fight for those beliefs? Where where where does the fault lie, if that makes sense?
00:10:31
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, Boris is a good example, I think, of this, where, you know, he was, or at least came across to people as completely authentic. You know, he had he had a persona, he didn't try and hide it. He just was who he was. And some people liked that, quite a lot of people didn't like it, but enough liked it to win elections. And I do think that we we are, you know, we're coming out of a period actually of I hope, anyway, we're coming out of a period where politics was about purely about management and we're moving into a period where people want authenticity. you know They want people who know what they think.
00:11:13
Speaker
have convictions and and want to sell them and explain them. And I do think we can see some of that, some of the shift to so-called populism in this country and elsewhere is actually a shift towards people who just have convictions about things and want to explain them and and tell them. So I hope, I'm not sure whether it's demand or supply, I think it's a bit of both, but I'm hoping that the period is beginning to come to an end and you know honest authenticity of any kind is is gradually becoming more important again.
00:11:46
Speaker
Yes, well, the conservative leadership contest and the final two that it has brought about, I think is a positive step in that direction and we will get to that. Before we do, let's zone in on a few specific areas that have been a focus for the government over the first hundred days. The first is something which they would rather not have had to deal with, but they have. And that has been an ongoing freebies scandal that just doesn't seem to go away.
00:12:14
Speaker
Some people would say that all politicians are as bad as each other in this regard. This is another cultural problem in Westminster. We shouldn't just be blaming Labour about it. Should we care is the is the question.
00:12:28
Speaker
Well, I think we should care because in most other walks of life, you know certainly professional walks of life, you can't just accept gifts. you know that There are rules against it, it can't happen. Politics is is quite unusual in that. So that's the first thing. you know We should care in this case because it's telling you something about the self-righteousness of the Labour Party.
00:12:52
Speaker
yeah They have spent the last two years, and certainly while Boris Johnson was Prime Minister, they spent a lot of time accusing him of all sorts of improprieties, you know all sorts of misbehaviors, all sorts of pushing against the conventions. What's been revealing about this affair is not so much that the the gifts, but the fact that they simply can't see that you know they've done anything wrong.
00:13:20
Speaker
you know they They keep saying the rule you know the rules have been, we you know we've not broken any rules, rules have been abided by and so on and so forth, but that really isn't the point. The point is that they are doing what they accused the Conservative Party of doing. I find it incredible that they can't see this. Many of them can't see it.
00:13:42
Speaker
And I do think that it's going to kind of play back on them quite badly. But what it's revealing is the sense of, you know, we are the moral party. What we do is fine because we're labor. It's it you know what we do is OK. And I think that's the message that people have taken from this.
00:14:01
Speaker
that, you know, it's just baffling. They can't see that. um I'm also a bit, I mean, I would mind a bit less if they'd all been competing for tickets for, um, ah you know, Mark Elder's final concert with the Halley and the proms or something like that. But we know the, the this competition for, you know, for Taylor Swift at the loss, the appeal is sort of slightly lost on me. I must admit that then I'm getting on a bit now.
00:14:24
Speaker
Yes, if they were going to be dodgy, they could have at least been dodgy in a more patriotic way. did the It's interesting i because they've relied on this, or at least Starmer has relied on this unique selling point of sort of pearl clutching moralism in absence of charisma and in absence of of any form of real clear conviction to your point.
00:14:50
Speaker
so He has created the noose to some extent that he that he now finds himself stuck in. I'm sure you've been offered in many numbers of different gifts and opportunities you know in your public life. Is it always obvious or is there is it is it easy to tell if there is an unsaid quid pro quo or an unsaid expectation that could put you in a compromising position?
00:15:16
Speaker
Well, ah I mean, I haven't been offered very much, I must say, but but but but that's good. That is good. It shows the system is is working. I mean, you ask suppose whether you're a minister or civil servant, you're supposed to avoid you know even the appearance of impropriety, not simply the facts of it.
00:15:34
Speaker
you gotta avoid things that look like conflict of interest and you know most gifts beyond the most trivial like somebody taking you out lunch or something like that that there's a deminimise level but anything substantive. You know there's there's always a bit of a quid pro quo you know nobody does these things but for nothing and you know it doesn't have to be spoken it doesn't have to be said.
00:16:01
Speaker
but a relationship is being established by gift giving and it can be used in the future and ah that's why you know financial services, firms, lawyers you know have strong compliance for you rules for exactly this reason. You need a rule to protect everybody and it is surprising it doesn't exist in politics, I must say.
00:16:26
Speaker
How do you solve for this problem? Because it it has been something which has been has occurred on both sides of politics for a long period of time. Is it a matter of paying politicians more so they have less of an incentive to take free stuff? Is it is it something else? Is this a solvable problem?
00:16:43
Speaker
i mean I think politicians probably should be paid a bit more, though you know the Prime Minister is paid quite a lot. Most people would think that was a pretty good salary and you should be able to buy your own clothes and glasses and things out of it. Most people in the country do, on much less.
00:17:00
Speaker
i think what I mean, this is my kind of personal theory rather than anything objective. but ah But I think you know what does happen is that politicians you get donations from firms, from individuals to run their office. And that's kind of understood and accepted. And I think reasonable out out alcohol policy political parties do run on donations.
00:17:23
Speaker
But people get donations to run their offices, to fund staff, to help research, and so on. And and I think that's where the kind of culture starts, of people giving you something, first of all, to help you do your job, and then just kind of giving you something to build the relationship. And I suspect that's that's where it started. you know Probably,
00:17:49
Speaker
MPs ought to be able to get a bit more to run their offices, to do research, to you know to run a proper political operation without going to the excess of US congressmen and senators that have whole kind of government departments effectively working for them.
00:18:05
Speaker
I think we probably it' still quite most MPs officers are still quite shoestring, you know a little bit amateurish, unless you're lucky enough to get you know the right people who are really experts. So I think we could do a bit better that and on that and squeeze out some of the external financing. properly Let's turn to the economy. Kista Stama has said that his top priority is growth, but at the same time, he's pushing ahead with several big government initiatives that a classical liberal would see as being anathema to growth, re-regulating the labor market, GB energy, nationalizing the railways, all this sort of interventionist stuff. Is that a circle which can be squared? How do you see this playing out?
00:18:55
Speaker
Well, I don't think they have any real idea how to generate growth at all. I mean, I'm sure there are people in the labour class who have an economic philosophy, but it doesn't seem that clear from the people who are at the top of it at the moment. I think growth is just a word.
00:19:10
Speaker
i dont I don't think they really kind of understand or you know if they do understand, they just believe a bit more investment, public investment is going to to make all the difference. And I just don't think they have any real idea of the power of incentives, you know the power of low taxation to to get people to you kind of build and do things.
00:19:36
Speaker
I just don't think they have any idea. So they see no contradiction between talking about growth and then you know spending vast sums on green energy or re-regulating the employment markets and so on because they have no underlying philosophy in the first place. So they don't really see that the contradiction between any of these things.
00:19:54
Speaker
it's obvious the growth isn't going to come from what that they're doing so they're going to be found out about this on this for too long but you know this whole country much of the west has got used to like living in a low-growth society over the last 15, 10, 15 years so You know, ah we've all forgotten what it's like to live in a high growth society. So, you know, if they don't deliver, I'm not sure it's going to feel any different. It's just going to carry on feeling kind of gloomy and a bit depressing into the indefinite future. It is a depressing thought. A critic would, of course, say that the conservatives also forgot about growth, particularly towards the second half of that 14 years in power. Are they any better?
00:20:45
Speaker
Well, I mean, I've been pretty critical of my own party on this that, you know, we have ourselves forgotten to a very large extent, not entirely. We have ourselves forgotten that you've got to keep you know the economy in good shape if you're going to get growth. You can't keep raising taxes and regulating and so on indefinitely. you know We are to blame on many of those things too. you know Our net zero policy was barely any better than and Labour's. yeah We have presided over regulation of the employment market. We brought in yeah virtually one of the last bills that we've passed in the last parliament. was a bill about pet abduction, making it an offence to lure a cat on the street. I mean, you know, really. So, you know, we have not been good on any of this, but I still think it's it's more in the past is DNA. It's easier to get back to. There is something a bit core about conservatives and conservatives being about small state, low taxation, low spending, sort of standing on your own two feet. That that sort of thing is still
00:21:52
Speaker
is still there in the DNA. So I think it's easier for us to get back to it than um for Labor, who don't believe in any of those things. And we will get back to labour bashing in just a moment, but why do you think that the Conservatives, and again, I actually think as well that this is a Western phenomenon, that there are right of centre parties that have forgotten about the inheritance of the Thatcher, Reagan, Howard Hawke years, Harper years. why has Let's start with the UK to be a bit more precise. Why do you think there was
00:22:27
Speaker
Why do you think the centre-right perhaps has lost its way a bit when it comes to strong economic management and the pursuit of growth in the last decade? Well, I think we you have to go back to the Blair Brown government, I think. The Blair Brown government basically lived off the inheritance of the Thatcher major government in the eighties and nineties, all the reforms, all the changes that were made, all the sort of dynamism that was created.
00:22:52
Speaker
Blair and Brown lived off that. They began the process of raising taxes and re-regulating, but they couldn't do enough damage, given the starting point for people to to really notice it. And then what we did was get mesmerized by the Blair Brown era and say, you know we we don't need to think hard about growth any longer. It just happens, obviously. you know All the hard stuff's being done.
00:23:17
Speaker
We should focus on social issues, green issues, how to redistribute the the proceeds of growth as the phrase, all this kind of thing. And you know we've just kind of forgotten about that ourselves. It's been reinforced, though, strongly by things like the 2008 bailouts that encourage people to think that you know the government will always be there, there's a strong government role. I think some of the sort of lifestyle preaching and controls over your own behaviour that have come with
00:23:51
Speaker
with net zero and sustainability that have gone very deep into the Conservative Party, it's been part of it and obviously lockdowns and and COVID. yeah All of this has reinforced ah a collectivist mentality in which the first thing people think of is what can the government do? Why aren't they helping? And you know that's got into the Conservative Party as much as as everybody else. So I think it goes back quite a long way, imitation of Brown and Blair, the kind of mesmerizing hold they have over the conservative modernizers and then just events that have tended to force collectivism because of the way we've responded to them.
00:24:34
Speaker
The immigration question is tied into this economic question because some would argue that the way that growth has effectively been cheated for now quite a long period of time is to bring in low-skilled, cheap labour in absence of productivity improvement.
00:24:53
Speaker
How do you go about if for example there was to be a concerted effort to try and reduce rates of migration which i believe the labor party of said they will do not nearly to the same extent as i say someone like a generic or a bad knock. Whether they actually will is very much an open question how do you go about igniting growth if you don't have that leave it to pull around my great or the same leave up to pull around immigration.
00:25:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, youve you' the country's got to shift over time to a different economic model, I think. you know we got When we were in the EU, we got you know We settled into a comfortable role in the EU, which was a vague you know basically quite low productivity economy, some advanced manufacturing universities and so on, but the large parts that had quite low productivity, quite centred on Southeast England. and yeah That was our sort of designated role within
00:25:51
Speaker
the wider EU framework and we became the recipient of lots and lots of ah migration and the economy adjusted to that, people you know employers and business got used to essentially an unlimited supply of quite cheap labour.
00:26:07
Speaker
That model, you know unfortunately, hasn't been broken quite as strong as it should have been because we've kept immigration going. But it needs to be broken. You know you won't get the investment, you won't get the efforts to increase productivity while labor supply is still extremely high. So we've got to shift, I think, to this this different model. We've got to get expectations into a place where in a business and the economy start adjusting. There's a credible shift and they know that we weren't going to go back to the old ways. And that that that should have happened under the exceptions. It's not going to happen under labor, I don't think. When they talk about reducing migration, I think they are probably quite comfortable with it as it is now at the 300,000, 400,000 level.
00:27:00
Speaker
And all, as you say, all politicians like the sugar rush of immigration in the short run. So we've got to shift to this, this different model. I think if we're going to become an advanced high productivity, high growth, high investment, economy where we need to get to the, you know, there just isn't any future in any other kind of, of set up for an economy like ours. But, you know, so we've got to explain that.
00:27:26
Speaker
And you know part of the problem, I think, is for some of the reasons we're just talking about, nobody has really been explaining how a modern economy works for the last 20 years or so. you know Why productivity is important, why light regulation is important, what and so you know why low tax, low spending is important. People just don't talk about these things, or they're not really explained.
00:27:51
Speaker
so You know, the necessary shift is going to be difficult. It's going to need a lot of work. but But that is the task, I think, for the Conservative opposition and and hopefully government is to accomplish it for the next few years. Do you think that that is as a result of modern pureed politicians being less persuasive and and not as able to take citizens on a journey? Or do you think it's a problem of courage and conviction?
00:28:21
Speaker
I think it's probably both of those things, to be honest. you know I do think conviction around yeah what I regard as important free market policies you know has got a bit weak over time. And you know yeah then as we're saying, you've got more managerial style of politics generally as well. So I think all these things are just just sort of feeding on on each other.
00:28:46
Speaker
and you know There's some wider stuff going on like you know the very short attention span of the media, the tendency of westminster politics Westminster journalism and the media to concentrate on kind of so who's up, who's down politics rather than what are the ideas behind the politics. and I think all these things can feed on each other probably. like just looked at the economic side of immigration. There's obviously a cultural aspect to it as well, a social cohesion aspect that bubbled to the surface during the riots over the summer. There is a feeling amongst many people in the United Kingdom now that
00:29:29
Speaker
There is a loss of something there's a loss of some sort of identity and that is being in part driven by immigration. Equally many on the left would say that that just cries from from racist effectively how do you reflect on the concerns that many have around immigration and the impact that that has on the social fabric of the united kingdom.
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah, so I would take one step back and I think, you know, the what I think very strongly is that the nation state, the democratic nation state as it evolved in the 1980s, 19th, 20th centuries is the best way that political communities have found to kind of do politics.
00:30:11
Speaker
settle their differences peaceably, work together with common aims in mind. And we haven't found a better way of doing that, so in my opinion. Therefore, anything that weakens the nation state as an idea, as a concept, ah is a problem.
00:30:31
Speaker
And yeah obviously the EU has weakened the nation state to quite a large extent, to the extent that many will will say it's kind of, you know, the nation state's a bad thing, it produces war and confrontation and all this this sort of stuff. And you know there's another form of it, which is that you know it it sort The nation is just the people who happen to be standing on the island at any given moment. you know there is the The history, the culture, the kind of sense of a common destiny and standing with each other, you know or none of that really matters. it's just to kind of
00:31:07
Speaker
you know also It's a utilitarian entity state in in people's minds. And I don't think that's how most people still think of it, to be honest. I think it's a very political class view of the world. And I don't think that is good anyway. So that is why I think large scale immigration is such a problem. Obviously the country can absorb small scale immigration.
00:31:33
Speaker
over time. And you know we've been quite good at doing that until quite recently. But I genuinely believe that you know modern democratic nation states simply can't absorb these these very, very large numbers from culturally very different areas. And what happens is what we're seeing happen, which is kind of parallel communities, different world views, the beginning of kind of ethnic politics in Britain which we've never had before and I regard all this as as really damaging, it's corroding what you need to make a national democracy work. If people don't feel they're part of the same community basically with common aims then you have
00:32:19
Speaker
many of the problems that we now see around us. So that's why I think you know that's the political argument as opposed to the economic argument for getting immigration down. I just think there has been too much in recent years and we need a pause to you know pause for breath, absorb, rebuild, try and rebuild the nation if you like. And you know again, obviously that's not going to happen under labour. We're going to have five years that are essentially wasted under labour from this point of view and things will be even worse at the end of it.
00:32:55
Speaker
but I think, again, it's got to be done. know we we We are on a path that's going downhill. And until we stop going downhill, we're just going to have more and more of these problems. So you know it's it's unfashionable. Controlling the borders is difficult. I think it requires us to make judgments about where we are comfortable seeing immigration from and thinking that some people sort of fit in better in a Western society than others.
00:33:23
Speaker
We've got to start talking about that and doing some events. That's my view. It's an interesting comment that some people fit into a Western society better than others, and it perhaps points to the elephant in the room in these conversations, and that is the migration of large scale or large numbers of people from traditional Islamic countries, and then the adoption of Islamism or Islam and Islamism in the United Kingdom. You mentioned the unfortunate rise of Islamic secular identity politics in the United Kingdom, which unfortunately is is now very much a thing. Is Islamism compatible with Western liberal democracy? Well, I think Islamism in the sense of you know the primacy of
00:34:14
Speaker
Islam, the kind of non-equality of different religious beliefs in the public square, you know the beliefs about equality of men and women and so on. I think some of those you know are very difficult to make compatible with modern British society as it's evolved.
00:34:36
Speaker
Now, you know most Muslims in this country are not Islamists. knowre Probably even some of those who call themselves Islamists would recoil from some of the the kind of purest Islamist beliefs. So I think it's it's very important not to overgeneralize and not you know kind of assume that everybody has the opinions of the the strongest parts of the community. But Nevertheless, I think it is unarguable that Muslim communities in Britain exhibit more of the characteristics of a sort of parallel society have you know probably not integrated as well as others. And that's perfectly compatible with saying most Muslims in Britain still have integrated pretty well. These are questions of degree, not of kind.
00:35:31
Speaker
But I do still think there is there is an issue and the fact that we've imported sort of ethnic ah religious politics into Britain as the Gaza ah war has shown suggests to me this is going to get more of a problem rather than less over time.
00:35:48
Speaker
What you've got to do is have a strong counter ideology and we've not had that in in Britain for a long time. The you know the na the the British nation state has eroded away over time to quite a large extent. People have you know the the the sense of tradition and culture and history and so on. that you know I remember when I was young being kind of basically non-questioned assumptions about the way the country worked. That's no longer the case, but unless you've got some counter-set of beliefs,
00:36:28
Speaker
then you know people will gravitate to beliefs, other beliefs that gives them identity and cohesion. I think that's what what's happening. It is. It is one of those unfortunate stories of our age, which is a loss of confidence, not just in British national identity, but the Western identity and Western civilization more generally. And the other unfortunate common denominator of this conversation so far is These problems probably won't get better in the next five years. So we've got to look beyond that and the next best hope, which would be a reinvigorated conservative government or potentially some form of right-wing government in the United Kingdom. We'll get to the alternative in a second. We currently have Badenoch v. Jennerik. Who are you supporting and why for that election, for that nomination, which will be in the start of November? Yeah. So, so I'm supporting Rob Jennerik. I supported him from quite an early stage.
00:37:25
Speaker
I think both candidates are good. you know we're We're lucky that I think the best two for the future of the Conservative Party got through the process. ah But I do think that you know the the difference ah differences are, to some extent, differences of style rather than substance. But I do think that what distinguishes Rob Jenrick is that he's got a clear sense of the battle of ideas that is to come. He's got a clear sense of you know just how much needs to be done to fix the Conservative Party and fix reinvigorate ideas on the right in Britain and you know how much effort that that's going to take. and you know Because I see politics as basically a battle of ideas, that's why I i gravitate to Roth. I think we do have two or three years of
00:38:16
Speaker
you know, really fixing the the roof. We've got to get the party in good shape again. And that's that's something I think Rob will do probably better than Kemi. How do you respond to people who say that Rob's hard line stance on immigration and increasingly on many of the culture wars issues is a bit of an act, but this is a relatively late in life come to Jesus moment and he's secretly a wet underneath that underneath that facade.
00:38:46
Speaker
um All I can say is, you know the Rob that I know now is quite different from the one I knew when I was in Cabinet in 2021 and when I was Boris's advisor before that. so I think he has gone on a real intellectual journey, has been radicalized by you know what he saw in the home office. how yeah how difficult it was to control migration, how difficult it was to get the leaders of the state actually able to to do anything. And you know people are allowed to to evolve. And I think sometimes they're more powerful when they they do evolve and repudiate previous beliefs than when they sort of inherit them kind of unthinkingly and just just stick to them. So I don't think he's that it's an act. There's definitely been a change in his worldview and how he sees things and and good, that's what I would say. No matter who the leader is, they will have to address not just the challenge from the left, but now the challenge from the right in the face of a rising reform under Nigel Farage. How does the Conservative Party handle that threat?
00:39:55
Speaker
Well, we must you know we cannot win an election if the right is divided. That's my starting point. And you know any solution has got to deal with that problem. yeah In my view, bringing the reform voters back to the Conservative Party plus, you know the two or three million people who you know simply refuse to come out and and vote for us, getting them back is a necessary condition for winning an election. If you can't do that,
00:40:25
Speaker
you know we're We're not even at the starting gate. Now, it isn't sufficient. You still want to build something of a coalition to your left as well to get you know the numbers of votes you need you need to win. And you know we've historically done that by being you know the most capable party offering the best kind of government and by appealing to people's you know to to some extent, their wish to run their own lives, the wish to keep more of their own money, you know some of the traditional conservative of economic appeal. Again, we lost that in recent years. So for me, the task is we have to become a genuinely conservative party again.
00:41:08
Speaker
That doesn't mean a far-right party it means a mainstream Conservative party around recognizably Conservative propositions. And then we have to show to our left that we've got the best ideas for the country. Conservative ideas are the best ones.
00:41:24
Speaker
They offer the best government, the best prospects. So come to us. And it would be absolutely the wrong thing to do, to say, we've got to win back Libden voters. Therefore, we must become a bit more soft left. I think that's the route to disaster. It's mainstream services and has the best way for the country and rallying people around it. That is what we've got to do, try and do.
00:41:49
Speaker
you know, whether so I think we can bring back a lot of reform voters just by being a credibly conservative party again. We'll be tested on that in the next two or three years, but I think that's the right thing to do first, see how politics evolves in those years. And looking at it from the other camp, what do you think Nigel Farage's end game is? What do you think his his hope would be over the next five years heading into the next election? Well, I think they do.
00:42:18
Speaker
want to you know become the mainstream party of the right. I think that is now their intention. They're pretty clear about it in the the election campaign. I don't think everything's changed. I think they want to to try and replace they the conservative party. I think you know the problem is for them, you know they've got to build an organization and organization really matters in politics.
00:42:44
Speaker
you know We still got 120 seats, albeit a very low number, but it was still 20 times what reform got. And that's because the Conservative Party can get people to turn out. It's got an organization. It can get voters into the polling stations. That kind of organization really matters. And I think reform are going to find it difficult to replicate that over the next few years. they you know They might, but I think that's their real problem.
00:43:14
Speaker
You know, particularly if, you know, we are genuine, exertive agannons and wooing some of their voters. You know, if we tilt it to the left as a party, then obviously the reform task gets a lot easier. yeah But I don't think we're going to do that. Whoever wins and reforms task just got a lot more difficult. You would have had, I imagine, a lot to do with Nigel Farage over the years. What are your reflections on Farage and his project today?
00:43:43
Speaker
Well, I mean, I ah wouldn't say I know him well, you know, obviously we've been in touch from time to time over the years. I think, you know, he, Martin Nigel is a great politician and I don' think anybody would deny that. To me, he's a, you know, absolutely recognizably conservative politician in his ideas, his worldview, you know, what he thinks about the country, what he thinks about the economy and and so on and so forth. and sort of circumstances have driven him into a different place, beginning with the Conservative Party's refusal 15 years ago to take EU membership seriously as an issue. And that's that's what it all stands from.
00:44:26
Speaker
i So i you know there is a ah tendency in the Conservative Party to be, ah some in the Conservative Party anyway, to be a bit sort of resentful about reform and kind of talk as if we're entitled to the votes of everybody who's on the right. And either reform are really to blame for us losing because they should have come out and voted for us, but they dared to go to to somebody else. and I think it's absolutely the wrong tone about the voters, it's the wrong tone about Nigel and the other MPs themselves actually. you know we We need to find a way of rebuilding the family of people who believe in conservative things and you know most of reforms seems to me to fall completely within that camp, including Nigel himself.
00:45:21
Speaker
My final question, David. This conversation at times has felt a bit doom and gloom. How do you feel about the United Kingdom, where it stands today, and how hopeful are you for its future, both over the next five years and then beyond that?
00:45:36
Speaker
It does feel a bit gloom and doom, undoubtedly, at the moment. But I am positive. you know This country has a history of of kind of getting itself into difficulties and then finding strength to to overcome that. And you can see that quite often in in history, not just the Second World War. You get a long way back before that. And I do think that you know we have that ability to summon up you know the sinews and you know come back and do the right thing. and So I'm not negative about the future of the country at all. I think some music you yeah know it's a great country with great traditions and we just need to kind of draw on them once again. i But I do think it's right to be optimistic. and i you know Boris was always extremely optimistic about everything, possibly excessively so, but ah but better to be too optimistic than
00:46:31
Speaker
too pessimistic. I do think sometimes in the way we communicate about conservatism we we we're a bit gloomy and you know sometimes it it feels like you know Labor has all the sort of Santa Claus policies. you know we they're the ones who you know just want we're We're there to make your life easy, money from the government, you know facilitate everything you do. We're the ones who say, you know no, life is tough. You've got to you know get used to that idea. and you know I think we can be a bit more positive about
00:47:04
Speaker
you know Freedom in particular, you know the value of like running your own life, doing what you want to, you know coming up with your own ideas, building family, building a business, living where you want, just kind of getting on with your life as a person. To me, that's really optimistic thing, but quite often we make it sound like a burden and we could, I think, move away from that and just be a bit positive about you know, free ah free people, a free economy, free ideas. Those are things that are good for you, make your life better, make you better as a person. So, you know, keep talking like that. That's what I would say. Yep. Music to my ears and and no doubt many others who want to hear less about pet abduction and banning cigarettes and and more more about freedom. Lord David Frost, thank you for coming on Fire at Will. Great. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
00:48:02
Speaker
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