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Dark Mysteries & Chilling True Crime Cases from America’s National Parks
369 Plays4 months ago
In this episode of States of Discovery, Sara and Marisa explore the chilling true crime cases and unexplained mysteries within America’s national parks. They discuss infamous cases like the unsolved murders in Shenandoah, mysterious disappearances in Death Valley, and eerie findings in Yellowstone. Joined by experts from National Park After Dark and Crime Off the Grid, they examine the challenges of investigating crimes in vast, remote landscapes, the lack of centralized missing persons data, and the complexities of jurisdiction. They also provide crucial safety tips for park visitors and discuss the growing impact of tourism on these protected lands. The episode concludes with a reflection on how these stories influence public perception, inspiring curiosity and conservation rather than deterring visitors.
In This Episode, We Cover:
- The most infamous true crime cases in national parks, including unsolved disappearances and shocking murders.
- How investigators navigate the difficulties of solving crimes in remote wilderness areas.
- The challenges of jurisdictional overlap and missing persons databases within the National Park System.
- Practical safety tips for hikers, campers, and adventurers who want to explore national parks responsibly.
- How national parks are dealing with modern challenges, from overcrowding to budget cuts.
Featured Guests:
🎙️ National Park After Dark – A podcast exploring the dark history, strange happenings, and true crime stories of national parks.
🎙️ Crime Off the Grid – A podcast dedicated to criminal cases that occur in remote and off-the-grid locations.
Resources & Cases Mentioned:
🔎 Cold cases in national parks: NPS Cold Cases
🔎 Yosemite’s severed hand mystery: Outside Online
🔎 The mysterious disappearance of Grand Canyon newlyweds: History HowStuffWorks
🔎 Missing 411 theories & unexplained vanishings: Reddit Discussion
🔎 The tragic case of Gabby Petito: A modern national park crime that shook the world.
Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review States of Discovery on your favorite podcast platform. We love hearing from our listeners, so share your own fair memories and suggestions for future episodes with us!
Connect With Us:
- Phone Number: 805-298-1420 - Leave us a message! We’d love to hear from you.
- Email: podcast@onlyinyourstate.com
Thanks for listening to States of Discovery. Until next time, stay safe!
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Transcript
Fear in Nature: Wildlife and Crime
00:00:03
Speaker
But yeah, but I mean, that's a great point, too, because imagine, you know, as women, we're already so worried about things like bears and snakes and breaking an ankle and falling in a crevasse.
00:00:16
Speaker
And now we have to add serial killing into the mix. but but You know, as women, we're worried about bears. yeah Number one on our list.
Exploring 'States of Discovery'
00:00:33
Speaker
Hey everyone, and welcome back to States of Discovery, the podcast where we explore the hidden, mysterious, and sometimes chilling stories about behind America's landscapes. I'm Sarah, and I am with my co-host.
00:00:45
Speaker
Hello.
Eerie Events in National Parks
00:00:46
Speaker
Today we're taking you into the darker side of the great outdoors, where the beauty of America's national parks meets the eerie, unexplained, and sometimes downright terrifying Indeed we are. And just a little fun fact, if you missed the Easter egg, we flip-flopped on you.
00:01:03
Speaker
I started. i was I'm excited about it. and It's... It's a new chapter. Surprise! Oh yeah, are you were you ready? um But not only that, not only the incredible intro, ah but national parks, what we're talking about today.
00:01:17
Speaker
They're places of adventure, wonder, and occasionally, or maybe more often than we think, some very unsettling mysteries. So from unsolved disappearances to shocking crimes, these untamed landscapes hold secrets that even time can't always unravel.
00:01:35
Speaker
And today we're not just telling these true crime stories. We're not just rehashing what's happened within our national park system that often goes under the radar.
Insights from True Crime Experts
00:01:46
Speaker
But we also are including some experts from two very notable podcasts, National Park After Dark and Crime Off the Grid. And we spoke to both of these teams to help us understand why so many of these cases within the national park system remain unsolved.
00:02:05
Speaker
and Before we get into these conversations, let's set the scene a little bit by looking into some of the most chilling true crime cases in our America's national park system.
Unsolved Mysteries in National Parks
00:02:14
Speaker
Because i have to admit, I didn't know that NPS had a cold case website.
00:02:21
Speaker
They do. And it goes back, like, when you see how old some of these cool cases are, it is honestly shocking. and one of the most infamous cases is the 1996 murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Williams in Shenandoah National Park.
00:02:36
Speaker
These two experienced hikers were brutally murdered in their tent. No sign of a struggle, no clear motive. And to this day, that case, along with so many others, remains unsolved. Yeah, and there's also the mysterious deaths in Death Valley, which happened in 1996. A German family that was visiting went to Death Valley, and they just disappeared.
00:02:59
Speaker
That was it For 13 years, roughly, they their remains were found in 2009 in a very remote part of the desert. So... Stories like this, it asks questions. What happened? Was the family lost?
00:03:15
Speaker
Did they run out of water and food? Or did someone or something lead them very, very deep into this area of Death Valley? Yeah, and it's, I mean, all of those questions are valid too. If you think about the size and scope of the national parks, who's in, who's out, it is jarring sometimes when you actually visit these parks and you realize, oh, there's not a path here.
00:03:38
Speaker
There's not a camera. There's not ah a door with a person welcoming you to every single trail.
Strange Deaths and Theories
00:03:44
Speaker
So, and let's not forget Yellowstone, where bodies have been found in thermal pools, some ruled as accidents and others raising far more questions, which if you think about,
00:03:55
Speaker
the temperature of these thermal pools. That is just, yeah, that's not a good way to go. Right. And watching some of these TikToks of people trying to get as close as possible. to No, no, no, no, no. I'm like, come on.
00:04:10
Speaker
but first on The first time I went to the Grand Canyon, I remember going down one of those little like switchback trails. I said, everyone's just kind of wandering around.
00:04:21
Speaker
And so many people were crossing over barriers. I say, do not cross, do not cross. Standing on boulders, turning around, taking Instagram photos. So not only are is their center of gravity all thrown off, but they're just doing it for the gram. And Like people fall all the all of the time, quite literally.
00:04:40
Speaker
Yes, it drives me nuts because to me, look, that photo is not worth it. It's never going to be worth it. I'm never going to be that person that is, first of all, I don't like, has as a rule follower just in life, that's nerdy little to me.
00:04:55
Speaker
I'm going to stay on the path that that's designated. Also because like, I don't know, don't want to be clomping around in this grass and and like and like ruining a bunny's habitat or, you know, like, I don't know what I'm doing with my hiking boots, what I'm destroying. Like, besides that, then it's also, yeah, I'm not going to fall down a cliff to my death. Just like that photo is never going to get published anyway. So I'm going to be at the bottom of the ravine. So it's never worth it.
00:05:24
Speaker
Well, and also another thing that people aren't considering, I think you alluded to, is that you can be tracking um invasive or foreign flora and fauna into these national park areas. And if you actually read like what you the do's and don'ts in the national parks, like don't take rocks, don't move rocks, don't climb over things, like scrape off your boots. Like it's actually quite serious.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, it is. Yeah. and we'll talk about a little bit more about that later. ah you know, do's and don'ts for the national park, ways to keep preservation alive. um But let's dive some of these true crimes, these National Park crime stories that have made headlines. They're the ones that stand out the most.
00:06:05
Speaker
A lot of these are terrifying. And ah kind of, it makes you realize just how difficult it can be to investigate crimes in such expansive remote locations.
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah. And let's just go back to the fact that the NPS has that list of cold cases going all the way back to the 50s. People who had mysterious disappearances, murders, just like it's so hard to nail down what has happened over the course of these decades.
00:06:35
Speaker
And one that stuck out to me as I was going back through some of these cases was the Yosemite Meadow severed hand. Have you heard of this one? Mm-mm. No. So essentially, in the middle of Yozomite, someone found essentially a severed hand in the middle of one of the meadows that you can walk through. And there was a lot of um you know theories like, is it was it connected to a cult, a serial killer? it wasn't clear like who was responsible it.
00:07:05
Speaker
and eventually it got to the point where someone was pointing to uh i believe um henry lee lucas the notorious serial killer but there hasn't been like a lot of confirmation on that it's just like the best case theory as far as i can tell is that they think it's related to that or a cult so i mean but look severed hand what are you do with that like that's um just showing up in your path yeah wow Interesting.
00:07:35
Speaker
um Yeah, I think what's also so interesting about these stories, too, is that there is this element of nature that, it you know, integrates itself in the true crime, creepy serial killer, could be murder.
00:07:49
Speaker
And then it's also you have animals maybe that are, you know, destroying evidence just because they're hungry, yeah making it darn near impossible to solve these crimes.
00:08:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of what I find interesting is all of the logic behind um the remains whenever animals have, you know, eaten and cleaned the bones and moved and like how that typically happens. Like if you see certain body parts that are dragged certain amount of distance away, they can surmise that maybe it like wolves or coyotes, something like that.
00:08:20
Speaker
um And also, i think what I find very fascinating um is so many people, myself maybe included, also want to connect these crimes to the paranormal, which I find fascinating. Yeah.
00:08:37
Speaker
If you've ever ah watched Missing 411, especially their coverage of National Park disappearances, ah there's a lot of allusions to like, is it a Bigfoot, a Wendigo, Skinwalker, like there are recordings of these people deep in the forest and you hear like mimics shouting back at that. It's just, I'm not saying that that's what it is, but sometimes these faces are big enough. i I can't prove that it's not.
00:09:03
Speaker
It's true. And also, we love a good conspiracy theory. i You know, because, i mean, if you think about it why are all these areas protected?
00:09:13
Speaker
What are they protecting us from? Or, i mean, got some skunk apes out there. i know. Yeah. I mean, I love that theory. And I would definitely support that.
00:09:26
Speaker
ah Yeah, so moving on, we have another really interesting true crime story in a national park in the Grand
Notable Disappearances and Murders
00:09:34
Speaker
Canyon. I do think there are so many...
00:09:37
Speaker
problems with Grand Canyon people visiting not respecting uh the boundaries like we talk about but this one was a little bit different this happened in 1928 Glenn and Bessie Hyde ah they were married they wanted to take a honeymoon that was not at an all-inclusive resort instead Glenn who was an experienced boater they want he wanted to boat the entire length of the Grand Canyon And at that point, only 45 people had managed to do it.
00:10:08
Speaker
A woman had never done it before. So Bessie wanted to be the first and Glenn wanted to be the fastest. And so on October 20th, 1928, they started their journey without life jackets, might be worth mentioning. right.
00:10:24
Speaker
um And they met up with some people along the way, a famous photographer, seasoned boatman. And eventually, the newlyweds never made it to their destination of Needles, California.
00:10:37
Speaker
They expected to arrive by December. A huge search ensued. Aerial surveillance by the military, indigenous trackers were employed. And the search party eventually reached the abandoned boat on Christmas Eve.
00:10:52
Speaker
And ah they found the boat. It was perfectly intact. There was no wreck, boat wreck, nothing. All the supplies were still accounted for. And so they made it 600 miles.
00:11:05
Speaker
And the boat was found just 46 miles in the mouth of the Grand Canyon. Neither of their bodies have ever been found. and But a river guide in 1992 found a marriage certificate for Bessie and Glenn Hyde one of the wars. Wow.
00:11:21
Speaker
um and uh and a birth certificate listing her name as Bessie DeRoss weird right I okay so not to make light of tragedy but I I like the one speculation the theory that Bessie Hyde maybe decided she didn't want to be in this marriage no more and And maybe use this journey as a way to start a new life.
00:11:50
Speaker
Did you see that theory? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I mean, go girl. Do you need? Just kidding. Joke. Joke.
00:12:05
Speaker
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00:12:21
Speaker
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00:12:29
Speaker
And then I think, you know, we have to mention in this episode, Gabby Petito case because yeah it's huge and it's coming back around too with the documentary that was just put out on Netflix which I saw another one I think on um there's another one on Max or maybe Hulu like I'm assuming some of these things were just released and people were building these you know in the meantime but that's a case um I think you know we were speaking earlier about this that kind of hit close to home for you right
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for the van life community, for sure. i think um when everything started coming out about the case, and that they were living in this tiny, tiny van, you know, they were in a Ford Transit Connect, which is, it' it's the smallest that you can have, I feel like when you're building out some sort of van, it's tiny.
00:13:25
Speaker
And you have two people, two grown adults that are trying to live full time in this van. i i knew what it was like to live in my van, which was a Dodge Sprinter by myself with Ghost, my dog, who take who's like pretty much human sized.
00:13:41
Speaker
And we were constantly, he was getting underfoot and you know, the room, you don't have a lot of space. So it's like, you're living in a box, you're living with your partner Of course, it's going to be tensions are going to be high.
00:13:53
Speaker
I mean, yeah, but just the fact it resulted in murder, I think is that is like a whole slew of other problems outside of just van living. Yeah. And the fact that there was, so they were, this occurred in Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming, correct?
00:14:09
Speaker
Yes. And, or at least where the disappearance, you know, they were traveling across the country. That was their goal originating in, wasn't she like a New Jersey native, moved down to Florida. And then that's where they took off from, I think.
00:14:21
Speaker
yeah um So yeah, Gabby Petito and Brian Laundrie traveled across the country. That was their goal. And they had an incident where they were picked up by the police.
00:14:33
Speaker
There was rumors of domestic violence and people were, um people called it in. And essentially we, you see like how something as you would think would be open and shut as the police pulled them over, these two van lifers, there was reports, but then this giant national park, there's so much, you know, remote landscape that how this, you know, kind of,
00:14:56
Speaker
evolved into this missing persons case that took so long to figure out. Yeah. And I think it's worth mentioning too that she, Gabby Petito was found, she was found near a dispersed camping site, which for people that aren't familiar You can go to a national park and you have reservations at a campsite.
00:15:21
Speaker
Then there's dispersed camping, which is first come, first serve. ah It's extremely remote. You have no water. There's no plug-ins. you're you know Most of the time, too, you have to abide by the fire regulations because you're you're really in the middle of nowhere.
00:15:36
Speaker
There are some national parks I've been to where dispersed camping, you have to hike four five miles into you know, the middle of nowhere just to get to your campsite. So it's not like she were she was there surrounded by a ton of people and a ton of campers.
00:15:51
Speaker
Disperse camping, you're basically on your own. Nobody's around you. You have no neighbors. You're just there in the wilderness. Yeah, and quite literally, the search and rescue teams that were looking for her were on horseback.
00:16:04
Speaker
So just to give you an idea of how they're actually able to go through these sites to, you know, to look for these folks. It's massive in a scale that I don't think a lot of people realize. I didn't realize until I was driving across the country just to see, I know we've referenced it before, but even just the distance between towns or gas stations, and that is the same within national parks, especially the bigger ones.
00:16:28
Speaker
Yeah. And also you have BLM land too, which is that all that land is you can camp on it. It's you, nine times out of 10, you don't have to pay anything. If you do, the fee is minimal, like, you know, 10, 20 bucks for a week. um But again, you're in the middle of nowhere.
00:16:46
Speaker
You have, there's no water supply. There's no, you know, so there's a lot of, i feel like there's a lot of problems with having this much remote space and giving people access to it.
00:17:01
Speaker
Obviously, the Gabby Petito case was a domestic violence issue. So, you know, that is in and of itself its own thing. But then you have these you know, I mean, why weren't there more serial killers in national parks? If they're just, if there's, you know, sometimes you're on a trail and nobody's, you don't see anybody except for one person for the entire day. That's like, you know, hunting grounds for.
00:17:28
Speaker
Not to go on a tangent here, short one, but we don't know there isn't like, look at all the long haul. here Like if there's enough distance and you can change your location, there's no cameras.
00:17:39
Speaker
um To your point, this is an eerie place to where a lot of, you know, really haunting and creepy things can happen. Not saying paranormal, but I may just have the hands of humans.
00:17:50
Speaker
um Yeah, it's really disturbing. Yeah, it is. And in that vein, we asked National Park After Dark.
Serial Killers in National Parks
00:18:02
Speaker
can they share a specific case or story that stood out to them as particularly haunting, perplexing, creepy? And they did share a story of a so serial killer, which I found very fascinating.
00:18:17
Speaker
Serial killer, serial rapist, David Carpenter, aka the trailside killer. That was what they chose as particularly haunting. And They said Carpenter, known for stalking and murdering individuals, primarily women, on hiking trails in state parks near San Francisco in the 1970s and 1980s.
00:18:36
Speaker
He was eventually convicted of seven murders, but suspected to be responsible for at least 10 them. And this one stuck out to them for a myriad of reasons, but mostly because they, two females, see themselves as ah victims because they, National Park After Dark, two young women exploring the national parks, the state parks, nature, just trying to enjoy the beauty of the world.
00:19:06
Speaker
And these victims of David Carpenter, their lives were senselessly and brutally cut short just when they were trying to enjoy, you know, the beauty that America has to offer.
00:19:19
Speaker
Wow. I don't think I've ever heard of this one before listening to National Park After Dark. I don't know if it's just because the area of the country or have you, did you know about this one?
00:19:29
Speaker
I did not know. And why didn't it get as much coverage as something like the Zodiac Killer, similar location, quite a few victims. Was it because they were women? Was it because, you know, the location?
00:19:42
Speaker
um i was recently speaking with an old friend who lives out west, and he was talking about going on trails. And I made the comment of like, well, we know what protection do you have? And his response back to me was like, what do you mean? Their trails are safe. You don't need protection. I'm like, oh, buddy. What would it be to not have to worry about that?
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah. wow I mean, no the thing is, though, even big strapping lads need to think about safety as well, because it's not just, you know, um women who are are are victims of these things, like even wildlife, get that bear spray.
00:20:16
Speaker
you Right. Snake ven snake ah and antidote venom. That's important too. yeah But yeah, but I mean, that's a great point too, because imagine, you know, as women, we're already so worried about things like bears and snakes and breaking an ankle and falling in a crevasse.
00:20:36
Speaker
And now we have to add serial killing into the mix. like lets You know, as women, we're worried about bears. Yeah. number one on our list i just feel like you know we have to run through every possible worst case scenario yeah you're absolutely right no it's crazy and just that story alone too like ah you know we think he's suspected for at least 10 but who really knows Because like we were saying, a lot of, ah you know, the evidence might be destroyed in terms of bodies or in terms of people are missing, but, you know, if they're unaccounted for. It's not.
00:21:17
Speaker
and That's a great point. And I think that is one of the biggest questions we should focus in on is really why are so many of these cases still mysteries? Why is it that evidence goes missing? What what is really happening here?
00:21:31
Speaker
Right. Because if someone is going to disappear in a city, there now especially, there will be cameras, there will be witnesses, entire police departments on standby. But when you're out in the wild, it's a completely different story.
00:21:45
Speaker
Exactly. So let's think about the sheer size of these parks. Yellowstone alone is over, what, 2.2 million acres. So that's larger than the states of Rhode Island and Delaware combined.
00:21:56
Speaker
Now imagine trying to search every inch of that for a missing person. Yeah. Not even feasible. I was just thinking about that too, watching this Gabby Petito documentary, because they the police, besides the fact it was the, long I think, Long Island, New York Police Department, Sheriff's Department, also the Florida Sheriff's Department in Northport, they didn't know where to start because basically Brian Laundrie came back with the van.
00:22:20
Speaker
They had, think it was ah it was Grand... Grand Teton National Park, and then there was another area of wilderness too. if it weren't for those phone records that were like pinging, they wouldn't have had they would have would have had to search all of that, which yeah is crazy to me.
00:22:39
Speaker
So it's like beyond the sheer size of these parks, you have treacherous terrain, you have unpredictable weather, wildlife, like we said, that scatters evidence.
00:22:50
Speaker
And that I think that just makes these cases so much harder. Yeah, and and I think you alluded to this, but the jurisdiction issues as well. So national parks are technically under federal law. So when a crime happens, local law enforcement isn't always the first to respond. It often involves the National Park Service, the FBI,
00:23:10
Speaker
a mix of different agencies, and some of these national parks too are very close to reservations. And that can further complicate things. And these investigations just, it's almost like a diffusion of responsibility and the complication of red tape that just makes it so difficult.
00:23:27
Speaker
It's true. And another really wild fact is there's no central database for missing persons in national parks. So if someone's disappearing in a national park,
00:23:38
Speaker
It doesn't automatically get logged into a national system, which just adds to the difficulty of solving these crimes. And that really makes you wonder how many people have vanished without even making the official record.
Crime Prevention and Safety Tips
00:23:57
Speaker
Hey, my name is Tara. And I'm Nancy. And we're the co-hosts of the Crime Off the Grid podcast. I was a National Park Ranger, law enforcement for over 30 years, retired now.
00:24:08
Speaker
And I spent pretty much all of those years in Yellowstone National Park. And park rangers wear a lot of hats. I was also park medic, wildland and structural firefighter. I ran the victim assistance program for the entire National Park Service the last five years of my career.
00:24:25
Speaker
Over the years, I saw park rangers do amazing things, like risking their lives in a lot of situations and in many criminal cases, a criminal who had been committing their crimes all across the country.
00:24:37
Speaker
And then they go into a national park and a ranger or a National Park Service special agent catches them and brings the offender to justice. And where a victim of a crime may be someone who's been abused, assaulted, has finally helped because they went into a national park and I wanted to tell these stories once I retired in 2023.
00:24:58
Speaker
And with our podcast, we want to give information to listeners on how to stay safe from crime in wild places like parks and forests. I'm Nancy, also co-host for Crime Off the Grid podcast.
00:25:10
Speaker
My friend Tara is a travel agent, and she booked me on a guilt trip. Yes, I did. Tara thought her and I should do a podcast about true crime in wild places.
00:25:22
Speaker
We both had amazing careers in land management law enforcement. I retired after 32 years of service. I worked 19 years in Yellowstone National Park. While there, i was an EMT, a dispatcher, field training officer, wildland firefighter, drug abuse resistance education, DARE ranger,
00:25:44
Speaker
I also worked at Mount Rushmore National Memorial as a supervisory law enforcement ranger. I became a taser instructor. I was also patrol captain with the United States Forest Service in the Black Hills National Forest for 18 years. or I'm sorry, for eight years.
00:26:00
Speaker
Moving back to the park service, I finished my career as the chief ranger of Jewel Cave National Monument. I wasn't sure i wanted to commit to being a co-host.
00:26:10
Speaker
I agreed to be a guest whenever she needed assistance. Because I asked nicely. That's right. After the third time of being a guest, I was really enjoying myself. She still didn't have a co-host, so I agreed to help her out.
00:26:25
Speaker
And here I am. You're doing a great job. Sweet. Any of the paranormal podcasts that we have done are both haunting and perplexing.
00:26:36
Speaker
We did a Halloween podcast this year, and while doing the research, there are so many park sites that have unexplained events that happen that are just spooky. Yeah.
00:26:47
Speaker
When a young bride was killed in the Old Faithful Inn in Yellowstone National Park and people would see her in the hallways or hear someone crying in the woods, but there was nobody there.
00:27:00
Speaker
But you feel a breeze and you could swear someone brushed against you. But again, no one is there. Yeah, I just got chills. Well, I guess for me, it depends on what you mean by haunting. Since Nancy mentioned the cool ghost story, I'll touch on the other meaning of haunting.
00:27:21
Speaker
So any case involving a child is always haunting to me and the hardest to deal with or the hardest to get over. That's so true. Yeah, we had a case in Yellowstone where a married couple and their six adopted children with special needs were camping in the campground.
00:27:36
Speaker
A witness reported to rangers that they thought the children might be abused or neglected. Rangers responded and the family left as soon as the rangers left after her contacting them. I was involved in helping determining where they might have gone. We worked with the other agencies.
00:27:52
Speaker
They were discovered in Arizona, but long story short, seriously, long story, the younger children were forensically interviewed, and it was discovered that these kids had suffered unimaginable abuse and torture. The male and female were arrested and charged with multiple felonies of crimes against children.
00:28:12
Speaker
And that only happened because the Rangers were diligent in their investigation and pursued doggedly this case. And then they got the cavalry on board. But it haunts me because once they left the Parks jurisdiction and the bad guys got arrested,
00:28:29
Speaker
We don't know where those children ended up, even though they were rescued at the time. and we just don't know if they're okay now. we We did an episode on this one. It was called Yellowstone for the Protection of Children. So if anybody's interested, then go check that out.
00:28:44
Speaker
It was a good podcast. It was hard to do, but it was a really good one. Yeah, Nancy and I had to whitewash it a little bit because that it it was pretty horrific. It was. Once an idea or a case is agreed upon by both Tara and I, we talk to people who have firsthand knowledge of the case.
00:29:04
Speaker
We read court documents, news articles, watch documentaries, read books, etc., These cases can be 100 years old or just happened and are just adjudicated.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah, we we do prefer cases that have been adjudicated for a lot of reasons. And I would say that most of the cases we cover, we often have some somewhat of a nexus to it. Since we spent years in National Park Service and Nancy in the Forest Service, we sometimes know people involved or people who know firsthand about a case. So if we know the rangers involved, we get some of the details, as Nancy was saying, that you might not get from a media source or even court documents.
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's for sure. Some cases take a quite a bit of effort to try and find that documentation. They do. and And I think one of the reasons we really like to get adjudicated cases, those are cases that have already gone through the court system, is because a lot of the the rangers that we know who are involved, we don't we do not want to jeopardize any cases. So it if it hasn't come to completion, we don't want jeopardize interfere in any way and somehow make their good work be not you so successful because of us you know talking about it on a podcast.
00:30:23
Speaker
It is our goal to highlight the great work that park rangers do to let people know that park rangers produce some great work to catch criminals. We also give out safety tips to those that spend time in our national park sites.
00:30:38
Speaker
People are going to visit their national park sites. Some will be safer after listening to our podcast. We will often have people comment on what they have done to be safer.
00:30:50
Speaker
Tara and i have commented that where there are people, there will be crime. People need to just be safe in a big city as much as in a national park.
00:31:02
Speaker
Yeah, and I do think that people listening to our podcast who go on to visit Parks and Forest tend to exercise exercise more caution, and they are more aware. Like Nancy said, we've gotten feedback on our email and social media saying sometimes some funny things like,
00:31:18
Speaker
They check to see if that's where a body was buried need or someone gave them the creeps and they got off the trail because of that. And I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect tourism because everyone knows there's crime like in New York City or Daytona Beach, Florida during spring break, for example.
00:31:34
Speaker
And that doesn't stop people from traveling to those tourist areas. And i I think people should know that national parks are not zoos and they're not automatically safer just because they cross into the boundary of a park.
00:31:47
Speaker
For sure. Well, we don't want anyone to not visit or explore wild places after listening to our podcast, but we want people to know that parks and forests are not any safer than any city or town.
00:31:58
Speaker
They aren't more dangerous either, but crime exists because you have people, like we've said, and we say it all the time. So we want people to know what to look for, like learn those red flags and what to do in a sketchy situation and to report something they feel is not right or it seems unsafe and what to do if they find themselves being a victim of a crime in these very remote places, which exacerbates any time you're a victim of a crime in some place like that.
00:32:27
Speaker
And by the way, most victims of crime travel to the park with their offender, and that's actually more common than being assaulted by a stranger. You know, we try to have people to be prepared. Plan your trip.
00:32:40
Speaker
Prepare. Use common sense. Have situational awareness. When you are prepared, you can enjoy any adventure. Oh, yeah. People should remember, if something doesn't look right, trust your gut.
00:32:53
Speaker
That's right. Nancy and I have a little bit of fun when we get together at at Parker Forest, which is not often because we we don't record in the same place. She lives far away from me.
00:33:03
Speaker
And we sometimes do videos on the lighter side on our social media, providing safety tips in wild places. And we have a blog on our website that gives tips on staying safe.
00:33:14
Speaker
So you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Off The Grid Podcast. You can find our Facebook page, which is just Crime Off The Grid. And our website CrimeOffTheGrid.com.
00:33:25
Speaker
Thanks for having us.
00:33:31
Speaker
And while we do love a good mystery, we also want to ensure that our listeners are safe when exploring the national parks. I know we've framed this as, oh, Lord, they're dangerous, but they are.
00:33:41
Speaker
It's a national park. It's nature. But you can keep yourself safe. So let's discuss some of those safety tips, especially for bears. I mean, we're worried about the bears. Yeah. Bears top the list.
00:33:53
Speaker
um No, I think the most important safety tip is always let someone know where you're going. and when you expect to be back. Even if you're just letting a parent, a friend, a spouse, a sibling, leaving a note at your house, leaving a message on your voicemail for your cell phone, this is where I'll be.
00:34:17
Speaker
ah People often are disappearing when they're hiking alone and not telling anybody their plans. And, um you know, the I mean, the instance of, you saw that movie 127 Hours.
00:34:30
Speaker
Yep, that's what was thinking of. Yeah, and yeah and so it's it's things like that that people should know where you are just in case. And you can also carry a personal locator beacon or a satellite communication device, but I keep ah just wanna say it now with the advance of technology, sure we know about like sat phones and sat devices, but if you have sharing location on your phone,
00:34:54
Speaker
or an air tag or something that's using cell networks to ping, don't rely too heavily on that because you can share your location. But if you're in the middle of Death Valley, the way those things work is that they're pinging off other cell phones or cell phone towers. And if you're too far out there, it's not going to see where you are.
00:35:09
Speaker
So thinking about a way to have a consistent and reliable SOS device is going to be a lifesaver for you. Yeah. Agreed. And another big one is to stay on your designated trail.
00:35:25
Speaker
It's so easy to get lost. You know, your're just the the Yellowstone example, 2.2 million acres You know, not not all of that is going to be marked.
00:35:37
Speaker
So, you know, if you're venturing off of a trail that is marked, you're putting yourself in a dangerous situation, could be an unexpected drop off, you could be running into a bear.
00:35:49
Speaker
ah you can And then you're just even like you're encountering people who maybe don't have the best intentions, maybe people that are living off the grid. I mean, you really have no idea. So it's better to be safe than sorry. sit Stay on the trails. The trails are designated for a reason. you'll You'll see the same natural beauty by just staying on these trails.
00:36:08
Speaker
I, it stresses me out, Marissa. I, um, so I take my dog on, on walkies and some of the parks where it's, you know, appropriate to, and you can have them. But honestly, whenever, especially during times of the year, whenever there isn't a lot of foliage, so during the winter or the fall, I can get lost on those trails so easily because you have wildlife paths, deer paths, rabbit paths, and it looks sometimes very similar to the path you're on.
00:36:34
Speaker
So being very self-aware and cognizant of where you should be going, honestly get a paper map. There's no, i mean, you can also download, um, like, uh, like saved maps for, from things like all trails or other, any other map services. And that can be very helpful.
00:36:51
Speaker
Absolutely. But I always rely on my trusty old paper map, like the, end yeah like the nerd I am, but also let's talk about self self-defense. My one friend maybe thought I didn't need,
00:37:04
Speaker
So some parks allow bear spray, which can be useful not just for wildlife, but also an emergency situation with another person. One thing I want to highlight with bear spray compared to mace, the range is so much longer and it's designed that way because bear.
00:37:18
Speaker
um Also, air horns. Whenever I went out to the national parks with my nephews the last couple of years, I gave them air horns because if you get separated, if there's something coming at you, even if it's like a cougar or mountain lion, same thing.
00:37:32
Speaker
Anyway, If you blow an air horn, you might just scare it off. Those things are loud. um Yeah. And also anything that, you know, is a cutting device. So that way if you get tangled or trip or like your coat gets caught on something, there's just so many things that you should have in a safety pack whenever you go out on your own.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah. Agreed. Also probably in that safety pack too, one of those, um like, foldable heat blankets. yeah know that you could I find that to be so important, especially if you're hiking in areas where at night there's a crazy temperature drop.
00:38:06
Speaker
yes um Obviously, we're you know prepare for that. ah But having just something like that, something so small as just this little disposable heat blanket,
00:38:19
Speaker
And water, I mean, throw a protein bar in there just in case, you know. Or a life straw. Those are so important because think about the rule of three. It's like, what, three minutes without oxygen, three days without water, three weeks without food.
00:38:31
Speaker
So water's high up there. You need to be able to get a source of water and you can't just drink from the stream or else you're going to get giardia and then you're going to, you know, be sick and then you're go to dehydrate even more. So things can really snowball really quickly. um And we're not just being paranoid. This is something that happens all of the time. Yeah.
00:38:47
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think it's important for people to stay aware, stay prepared, trust your instincts. If something's feeling off to you, don't ignore it. Don't push it.
00:38:58
Speaker
um And I think just, yeah, be as prepared as possible. There's nobody's ever walked away from a situation being like, well, I was too prepared for that. You know, like just...
00:39:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's important. But so we also asked National Park After Dark. What advice would you give someone exploring national parks who wants to stay safe but still embrace that sense of adventure?
00:39:22
Speaker
And their response, I thought, was phenomenal. Do plenty of research prior, but make sure to stop at a visitor center or a ranger station. Rangers aren't just there to make sure you don't litter or hand out park maps.
00:39:34
Speaker
They are a wealth of knowledge and very eager to help you have a memorable but also safe experience. Rangers know the parks better than anyone. They know the trail conditions, plant and animal life, weather patterns, and they can help guide you to what you need to know and how to be a responsible a responsible visitor, all while encouraging that you have a blast.
00:39:56
Speaker
And every time I've spoken to a park ranger, their passion, knowledge, and just excitement for the national parks is contagious. it's It's always been an absolute pleasure. Yeah.
00:40:10
Speaker
I agree with you. I do think that it's a great point that ah they made that rangers aren't just there to ensure people are throwing out their trash and giving park maps. They really are the best people to ask about that specific park that you're at.
00:40:27
Speaker
They usually nine times out of 10 know it better than anybody. um And so that's ah it's a great segue into you know, this next bit for us because we've explored the darker side of national parks with these crimes, but we also want to talk about the state of parks as it stands today.
Challenges Facing National Parks
00:40:51
Speaker
Yeah, um because as much as I'm fascinated by these mysteries and I could talk for days about cold cases and paranormal and all that, we've got a face that the national parks are facing really ah big challenges beyond crime.
00:41:05
Speaker
And I wouldn't want to talk about it or have this episode be recorded without discussing what's been going on. Yeah, and I think you know starting off with one of the biggest concerns outside of the most recent political news National park systems in general have been facing this issue of overall visitor impact.
00:41:29
Speaker
And including like ah just a lot of issues with with people that are not treating the national parks with the respect that I think they deserve.
00:41:40
Speaker
Absolutely. So this over tourism means that more people than ever are heading to the national parks, which we love that they support it and we want people to visit them, but it's causing those issues of like overcrowding, environmental damage, increased risks to both visitors and wildlife.
00:41:56
Speaker
Um, You know, I, whenever I went to Yosemite, I remember my junior ranger nephews were standing with me looking at, um, lower you, like one of the, like one of the falls, like lower falls. And so many visitors were climbing over the guardrails to get in the water.
00:42:15
Speaker
And they asked me like, why are they breaking the rules? They don't, do they not understand? They're not allowed to do that. And i'm like, you, you guys, you, I love that. I love that you're little rule followers too. I appreciate that.
00:42:26
Speaker
But also so hard to to try and and you know keep those rules where they are like you're teaching a new generation of explorers and they're watching people, for probably adults, just completely throw those rules out the window, which is really hard.
00:42:42
Speaker
And you know just also seeing this stuff online where people are bugging the animals just for a photo op. It's like, man, just leave them alone. You're in their house. And the people who approach moose and bison and ah bears like they think it's nothing.
00:42:58
Speaker
um Excuse me. Those are really powerful creatures and you have no idea how they're going to react. Not because you're encroaching, like you said, on their territory. Leave them alone. Yeah.
00:43:09
Speaker
Agreed. Yeah. And then so also we have to talk ah a little bit about the budget cuts that just took place February this month. um You know, the National Park Service have they've been struggling for years with funding.
00:43:23
Speaker
And this leads to making it harder to maintain trails, to protect wildlife, and then also to investigate crimes that take place.
00:43:35
Speaker
And we're not even talking about these cold cases or serial killers. If someone slipped into a river or pushed someone or was seriously hurt, who is going out there to rescue these people? It's people and ah that are employed by the National Park Service.
00:43:51
Speaker
There are even people who camp there seasonally just to be search and rescue or to help with the fires, like especially in areas that, you know, there are controlled fires or maybe lightning strikes, things like that.
00:44:01
Speaker
Yeah. it's not just, as we said earlier, people sitting at the gates handing out maps. It's so much more. It is. It is. And for people that don't know, so this month, the Trump administration implemented severe layoffs within the National Park Service. They ended up terminating around 1,000 employees, which accounts for 5% of the National Park Service workforce.
00:44:29
Speaker
And The issue that a lot of people have with these layoffs, beyond just the fact that this is a huge chunk of our federal workforce in the NPS,
00:44:41
Speaker
um You know, you're talking about concerns that concerns with preservation, maintenance of national parks. um You know, there are many historical parks that we have that rely on skilled staff like rangers and historians and preservation specialists to maintain the historic integrity of these places.
00:45:06
Speaker
And that is like job number one for them. Then yes, they educate the public and, you know, to help take care of the space. But a lot of it is about preservation and a reduction in staff threatens this preservation for some park structures that are centuries old.
00:45:24
Speaker
Yeah, and past administrations even formed, you know, these like the ah civilian Civilian Conservation Corps and so so many other organizations that were built to build up our national parks to protect them.
00:45:37
Speaker
Like it's really, you know, core to our DNA as a country or is supporting these national parks because we are such a massive place just geographically. Yeah. And the thing that really that hits hard is the fact that these folks made it their passion.
00:45:53
Speaker
They keep people safe. They keep animals safe. You know, I don't think that it was something that was done that is actually going to improve the situation or keep people more people safe, especially with the overtour.
00:46:07
Speaker
Like it's just going to snowball, I think. Yeah, I agree. And i think it's worth mentioning, if you're an explorer, an adventurer of these national parks, if you're gearing up for a summer a spring or summer of adventure, to go in there with a little bit of grace.
00:46:25
Speaker
yeah you know Visit these national parks that they might, because of these staff shortages, they might have decreased campground availability. they might There might be longer entrance lines. I remember sitting to get into...
00:46:38
Speaker
Gosh, I don't even remember which park, but it took hours. yeah The line was insane. um And it's also just, yeah, services such as clean facilities, maintained roads, all those things might be affected.
00:46:51
Speaker
So just have a little bit of grace for these national parks. And I also think we should drop a link in the show notes for people who who want to donate to NPS, who want to donate to keeping our national parks a place of...
00:47:08
Speaker
entertainment, enjoyment, wonder, adventure, all while respecting the animals and, and the flora and fauna. I think that is, yeah, I absolutely support that. And also, um, before Warren, because of the shortages, you know, it, like you mentioned with like the availability, some of these things might be frozen, the reservation systems, the lottery systems, um,
00:47:33
Speaker
And just know that it's not the intent to have not not have people visit, but there just aren't people to support those programs right now. And also consider going in the off season. So how you mentioned our long lines, if maybe you go whenever most people don't.
00:47:47
Speaker
And sure, you're not going to see that particular waterfall. Maybe ah the snowpack has dried up, is whatever it is. um it's still worth um still worth going, but just maybe be a little bit more intentional about when you're planning. um And speaking of which, we can all do our part as we visit the national parks. So whether it's following Leave No Trace principles or supporting conservation efforts or being more mindful about how we interact these spaces, there is always something we can do to preserve our beautiful national park system.
Preservation and Inspiration
00:48:21
Speaker
Yeah, for future generations, like your nephews, like my niece and nephew, I want to be able to take them to some of these parks that I've been to before and and show them ah a completely different side of the United States.
00:48:36
Speaker
That's what's always fascinated me about our national parks is that yeah they each are preserving something so special about our country that deserves to be enjoyed, but more importantly, it really deserves to be respected.
00:48:50
Speaker
Yeah. But if you think about it, too, it's not just the parks. It's not just the things you've heard, but also national forests, national historic sites. There's a huge web of these places throughout the United States that are going to be impacted by this, and we want to preserve them for future generations.
00:49:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yes, I do love the fact that we started out this episode talking about true crimes and serial killers, and then we just get to this place. But yeah, they go hand in hand. I mean, the true crimes in national parks, we can't ignore what's been happening in the news which are with our national parks. So...
00:49:29
Speaker
I think it's important to touch on. And even though this episode was fascinating and slightly terrifying, finding a severed hand in the middle of your trail, ah you know, it's been a fun, fun ride today.
00:49:43
Speaker
It has been. I mean, I'm feeling slightly more prepared, but also slightly more paranoid. I'm going to think seriously about all the hikes I've taken i on my own and maybe stick to the ones where I can take Fen.
00:49:55
Speaker
ah my Fen is my dog, by the way. um He's not going to necessarily protect me, but at least he'll be able to tell my tale and in the future.
00:50:06
Speaker
yeah that's always nice. Yeah. I can say that one thing that fascinates me the most about this is that no matter what true crimes we're talking about, what murders are taking place, ah people aren't deterred from visiting their national parks.
00:50:24
Speaker
Even if they know that a serial killer came through decades ago, they still want to go They still want to visit. They still want to explore. yeah, I find this really fascinating, which was something I wanted to ask National Parks after dark, is how these stories, how are they influencing public perception and tourism to these national parks?
00:50:46
Speaker
And their answer, we believe stories that we share positively influence public perception and tourism to national parks. Over the last four years, we have received hundreds, if not thousands of emails and comments from listeners who all say variations of the same sentiment.
00:51:05
Speaker
quote, I would have never known about XYZ and X Park, but now that I do, I can't wait to see for myself. Thank you for sharing. Now I have another place to add to my list, unquote. So I think that that's a really fascinating um element of this because these stories might have some sort of element of death or disaster or mystery or completely cold case unsolved, but people are still being inspired inspired to explore, which is really cool.
00:51:36
Speaker
That really is. um I, you know, it's almost like, um like dark tourism kind of thing. Like there's an, there's an angle of that. Like it inspires you to, to educate and explore these places that you've heard about maybe in a not so positive light, but it still gets people out there and taking those adventures.
00:51:58
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, so huge thanks to both National Park After Dark and Crime Off the Grid for sharing their expertise in this episode.
00:52:09
Speaker
If you want more dark and mysterious National Park stories, go check them out. We're going to link to both of their shows and websites in our notes section of our episode.
00:52:21
Speaker
Yes. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to States of Discovery and leave us a review. We're going to be back next month with another deep dive into the strange, surprising, and fascinating stories that keep us curious.