The man who co-founded Cognizant and scaled it from a startup to 280,000 people, $16B in revenue, and ~$40B in market cap has a blunt message for the IT services industry: the scarcity-era playbook is finished. 

In this episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, HFS Research CEO and Chief Analyst Phil Fersht sits down with Frank D’Souza, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Recognize and author of the new white paper The Great Decoupling, for a candid debate on how AI is rewriting the economics of services.

They unpack “the great paradox”: code has never been more valuable, yet the cost of producing it is collapsing toward zero. Frank explains why the industry’s habit of pricing the input (billable hours, utilization, headcount) instead of the output is the real threat — and why the firms that survive will sell certainty and outcomes, not tires and spark plugs. 

This is a no-nonsense conversation about the AI reckoning facing IT services, consulting, and digital transformation — and a roadmap for the leaders willing to drop revenue before they grow it.  

Chapters 

00:00 – Meet Frank D’Souza: from Cognizant to Recognize
01:43 – The 3 things that built Cognizant into a $16B giant
03:27 – The innovator’s dilemma: why incumbents get disrupted
04:41 – The great paradox: code priceless AND worthless
07:45 – Selling the experience, not the inputs
09:46 – Why talent — not tech — is the real bottleneck
12:13 – The J-Curve danger: how to spot a firm on the wrong side
14:19 – Wall Street, Jevons’ paradox & people-heavy businesses
17:08 – The “first mile and last mile” services opportunity
20:15 – OpenAI & Anthropic services deals: threat or gift?
22:46 – Mass retraining, young talent & “artificial wisdom”
25:21 – From the pyramid to the diamond: the new talent geometry
30:26 – A NASSCOM-style industry-wide apprenticeship?
32:10 – Building culture from the bottom up
34:49 – Do we need better leaders in services?
36:03 – Big vs. small: who wins the AI transition?
39:46 – The Syclum story: managing through war and the J-Curve
43:24 – “Outcome density”: what we’ll talk about in 2 years
45:10 – The coming wave of chaotic consolidation & M&A  

Explore More 

 * HFS Research: https://www.hfsresearch.com/  [https://www.hfsresearch.com/]
 * The Podcast: https://horsesmouthpodcast.com/  [https://horsesmouthpodcast.com/]
 * Phil Fersht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/ 
 * Frank’s white paper, The Great Decoupling: https://recognize.com/the-great-decoupling/
 * Frank D’Souza on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franciscodsouza 

About From the Horse’s Mouth: Intrepid Conversations with Phil Fersht brings together founders, executives, and contrarian thinkers for unfiltered debate on the forces reshaping business and technology. Hosted by HFS Research CEO and Chief Analyst Phil Fersht.  

#AI #ITServices #GenerativeAI #FutureOfWork #DigitalTransformation #Consulting #leadershiptips

Phil pods with Cognizant Co-Founder Frank D'Souza: Why AI is breaking the IT services industry 

Phil Fersht asked Accenture's Manish Sharma a blunt question: is enterprise reinvention genuinely a different operating model, or is it just transformation 2.0 with a bigger budget 

Manish's answer is one of the most candid conversations on the subject we've recorded this year. 

In this episode of From the Horse's Mouth, HFS Research CEO and Chief Analyst Phil Fersht and Accenture's Chief Strategy and Services Officer Manish Sharma cut through the noise on what enterprise reinvention actually requires. 

They debate the line between transformation programs that end and reinvention capabilities that compound. They name the five things every enterprise has to unblock for AI to deliver any measurable value: process, data, digital core, operating model, and talent. They walk through what the human-and-AI workforce actually looks like inside a services firm at Accenture's scale, including a concrete before-and-after example of how a mid-career Delivery Lead's day has shifted in the last 12 months. And they pressure-test the dominant narrative that AI is a productivity story, arguing the real prize is revenue and growth, but only for the enterprises willing to redeploy the capacity AI frees up. 

If you're running an AI program, sitting on a board reviewing one, or trying to figure out why your last five pilots stalled, this is the conversation to listen to. 

Connect with Phil on LinkedIn: Phil Fersht | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/]
Learn more about HFS Research: About us - HFS Research [https://www.hfsresearch.com/about/]

Phil pods with Accenture’s Chief Strategy and Services Officer Manish Sharma: Same movie, bigger budget? Pressure-testing Accenture's reinvention bet

In this episode, Phil Fersht is joined by members of the HFS Global Advisory Board to explore why AI has reached a critical inflection point for enterprises. The panel features Malcolm Frank, Steven Hill, Mark Hodges, Cliff Justice, Mary Lacity, and Jesus Mantas, bringing together decades of leadership experience across consulting, academia, and global enterprises.

Together, they discuss the growing gap between AI experimentation and real execution, and why trust, leadership conviction, and organizational design are now the biggest barriers to scaling AI. While individuals are rapidly adopting AI in their daily work, enterprises remain slowed by process debt, siloed structures, and fear-driven decision-making.

The discussion also examines how AI is reshaping services, workforce models, and business outcomes, and why success will depend less on technology and more on culture, accountability, and the willingness to redesign how work gets done.

To watch the full webinar, visit here: https://www.hfsresearch.com/webinar/ai-at-a-crossroads-the-state-of-the-industry-on-trust-leadership-and-execution/

What you’ll hear
• Why enterprises are struggling to move from AI experimentation to execution
• The AI velocity gap between individuals and organizations
• How trust, fear, and leadership behavior are slowing adoption
• Why process debt is a bigger barrier than data or technology
• The shift from effort-based services to outcome-driven models
• How AI is reshaping workforce structures and middle management

Key takeaways
• AI challenges are more about people, culture, and leadership than technology
• Trust in AI remains a major barrier, especially at senior leadership levels
• Process ownership and accountability are critical to unlocking value
• Enterprises must redesign workflows, not just layer AI onto existing systems
• Services firms must move toward outcome-based models to remain relevant
• Organizations that act with speed and conviction will outpace competitors

Chapters
00:00 Introduction and panel overview
00:20 Meet the HFS Global Advisory Board
02:20 The AI velocity gap in enterprises
04:17 Why adoption is slowing inside organizations
05:02 Trust vs capability in AI adoption
06:41 Lack of strategy and enterprise readiness
07:59 Building trust and securing AI systems
09:07 Process debt as the biggest barrier
10:40 Leadership, culture, and change management
12:46 Overcoming fear and driving adoption
14:42 The shift to services as software
16:48 Industry disruption and business model change
18:28 The future of services and global impact
21:09 Key takeaways from the panel
24:50 Closing remarks

AI at a crossroads: The state of the industry on trust, leadership, and execution

In the latest episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, Phil Fersht is joined by Cathy Hackl, the tech futurist widely known as the “Godmother of the Metaverse”. Together, they explore the failings of the metaverse, the wider emerging tech space, and what comes next for AI.

Cathy makes clear that the future of AI isn’t defined by language alone. Looking beyond LLMs, it will have a much bigger impact in the physical world. That’s why Phil and Cathy discussed world models, spatial intelligence, and even why Claude can’t come to your house and change your lightbulb… Yet!

They delve into the shifts we’re seeing as a result of AI, including the reality of AI-driven layoffs and how societies will have to shift when AI is embedded in everything we do.

What you’ll hear in 30 minutes:

 * What really happened to the metaverse, and which parts survived
 * Why the future of AI extends beyond language models into the physical world
 * How world models and spatial intelligence are reshaping the next wave of innovation
 * Why enterprises are struggling to scale AI despite widespread adoption
 * The growing tension between AI-driven efficiency and workforce stability

Guest Snapshot

Cathy Hackl is a tech futurist, investor, and gaming executive, and a leading voice on spatial computing and the future of the internet. She has worked with global brands including Nike, Ralph Lauren, and Louis Vuitton, currently holding a role with Nokia, and is an active member of the World Economic Forum.

Explore More

Phil Fersht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/
HFS Research Website: https://www.hfsresearch.com/
Cathy Hackl on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cathyhackl/

Beyond LLMs into the physical world: Phil Fersht with Cathy Hackl

In the latest episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, Phil Fersht is joined by Julie Sweet, Chair and CEO of Accenture, to discuss what leadership looks like when macro volatility collides with technology advancement. In particular, they explored why cost cutting alone won’t drive enterprise growth.

As organizations race to scale AI, Julie made one thing very clear: ‘You do not cut your way to growth”. The conversation pushes beyond experimentation into accountability, how enterprises scale adoption across the enterprise, and the importance of nurturing the next generation of talent.

This episode tackles the real questions facing enterprise leaders: How do you drive growth, protect talent pipelines, and reinvent yourself at scale? And how do they do it all at once?

What you’ll hear in 30 minutes:

 * Why “you do not cut your way to growth” in the AI era
 * What it means to commit AI initiatives to the P&L
 * The core differences between proof-of-concepts and enterprise scale
 * Why volatility is forcing significant reinvention
 * How AI is reshaping entry level jobs, and why preserving them matters

Guest Snapshot

Julie Sweet is the Chair and CEO of Accenture, responsible for 800,000 employees across approximately 120 different countries. After 15 years at the firm, she became the CEO in 2019 and has guided them through a global pandemic and the rapid advancement of AI.

Explore More

Phil Fersht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/
HFS Research Website: https://www.hfsresearch.com/
Julie Sweet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-sweet/

You can’t cut yourself to growth: Phil Fersht with Julie Sweet

In the latest episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, Phil Fersht is joined by Mohamad Ali, Head of IBM Consulting. They delved into what happens when one of the largest services organizations begins operating more like a software firm in the AI era.

The conversation covered everything from how digital workers are reshaping delivery models, to the reimagination of margin structures and how value is defined. As enterprises demand more for less, Phil and Mohamad dig into IBM Consulting’s big bets and what the next phase of technology means for the industry.

What you’ll hear in 30 minutes:

 * Why the consulting and software worlds are colliding
 * How enterprise expectations are changing
 * The growth of human and digital offerings.
 * Whether AI driven efficiency shrinks margins or grows them
 * What “trillions of agents” means for the modern enterprise
 * Why leaders who stutter will fall behind in the AI era.

Guest Snapshot

Mohamad Ali leads IBM Consulting, overseeing the entire global services organization that generates over $20 billion in annual revenue. He spent almost 14 years at IBM between 1996 and 2009, before embarking on an career that saw him serve as the CEO at two different companies, before ultimately returning to help lead IBM’s enterprise AI play in 2023.

Explore More

Phil Fersht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/

HFS Research Website: https://www.hfsresearch.com/

Mohamad Ali on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alimohamad/

Inventing the agentic enterprise playbook at IBM: Phil Fersht with Mohamad Ali  

In the latest episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, Phil Fersht is joined by Richard Seroter, Chief Evangelist at Google Cloud. They discuss the latest developments with enterprise AI and why its impact feels different to every technology wave before it.

The conversation looks deeper than flashy press releases and hype to explore how AI is reshaping behaviours, decision-making and enterprise risk. It covers everything from the shift in how people search and interact with technology to the growing tension between speed, trust, and scale.

Phil and Richard delve into whether advantage comes from moving first with AI, what separates experimentation from transformation, and why AI adoption will be defined by outcomes.

What you’ll hear in 30 minutes

 * Why Google’s move into the enterprise collided with the AI explosion
 * How ChatGPT changed consumer expectations, and what it revealed about how humans want to interact
 * First movers versus fast followers, and why second mover advantage matters more
 * Why Services-as-Software is growing, and what it signals about the industry’s future

Guest Snapshot

Richard Seroter is the Chief Evangelist at Google Cloud, where he works across enterprises, developers, and leaders to drive outcomes with emerging technologies. Richard previously held roles at firms like VMWare, Microsoft, and Accenture.

Explore More

 * Phil Fersht on LinkedIn:   [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbXVOeEVzeWE1Y1VPLTJ4MzRkYmgwbG5YeVhuQXxBQ3Jtc0tsRnFMNjV1Z2hybDFiTUNxSUR2a0NScmIteHFvajJ4bWtpVm5OMTVSMUpnQjdPTHAyQU9DeEFNNzFIaWhsZENUUVFTU2luYUIyODIydUZVOUVYa2ZEOVowSnVNa1lBZVJIT25GVWVHbm5KeG9KNHp3Zw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fphilipfersht&v=d_Q7GhFLnxk]https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/
 * HFS Research Website: https://www.hfsresearch.com/ [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbFRaRlpROUtuM3ZIUHZzT1hPbGdHVHJ4eHVJd3xBQ3Jtc0ttXzBhalJaejlLUVhMeWFaNHRTOS1QZ0dwS01JMFBXSEF6U2RzNi1mUXJTUDZ5cFBrUVRwMWpjSm4wcFBmQUtPdVZuN2x2LVVNMmVGdmtqN1VGOXZDLWpobF9pZ09YT3VsTXNIY2ptaUV1VlZXaFZldw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hfsresearch.com%2F&v=d_Q7GhFLnxk]
 * Richard Seroter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seroter/

The new enterprise stack and Google's AI play: Phil Fersht with Richard Seroter

In the latest episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, Phil Fersht sits down with Gary Hoberman, Founder and CEO of Unqork, to break down what’s really happening below the AI hype, and why the race to scale AI might just be deepening enterprises’ technical debt.

Enterprises are discovering that speed alone isn’t the advantage they thought it was. Security, reliability, repeatability, and explainability are becoming the real bottlenecks for AI adoption. It’s exposing a divide between what can be built quickly, and what can be trusted at scale.

What you’ll hear in 30 minutes

 * Why AI is accelerating code creation, but enhancing complexity
 * The hidden risks of low-code, AI-assisted development, and code replication
 * Why security, reliability, repeatability, and explainability matter more than speed
 * Why control, not velocity, will define the next phase of enterprise transformation

Guest Snapshot

Gary Hoberman is the Founder and CEO of Unqork, a no-code enterprise application platform used across key industries like financial services, insurance, healthcare, and the public sector. He is a former CIO and technology leader at firms like Citi and MetLife, and has spent more than three decades building and scaling mission-critical systems in highly regulated environments.

Explore More

Gary Hoberman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-hoberman/
Phil Fersht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/
More from HFS: https://www.hfsresearch.com [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbk41SWowbXFBWUNONHU0VlFkbnhrMU5NVDZxQXxBQ3Jtc0ttREVDVW1teC1LQU1LVF9QYWZaZ3ZyS2pTTkNWQ1BnVERlOXpGVlg1OHZTdHdLMlNLRm5OVTNPM1NVLVM1Z0FlNTdVNURsVzVfOURrai1ISXZuSUxJVWVIREtxQzk5XzJUNkhXSkFGWUdKRUUwNmFUaw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hfsresearch.com%2F&v=hGcvMD0i60k]
More from From the Horse's Mouth: https://horsesmouthpodcast.com/ [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbkdDVmk5aUhKN0o3RTEyellNdXFfUm1RTHdSd3xBQ3Jtc0ttTVpyZXRzQjRCWC16TmJVTVBLaEVfYVI2RzA4S2hwVS1xTHZBa3BDNlc4MWZYMjVwbm5WRlVOaHVyZFRFVldLajYxT2IxWE1ldTlvc1lUN192WUdBOUN5NHV5RDRKUTljOGNvZl92SVlDY1I3bkNlOA&q=https%3A%2F%2Fhorsesmouthpodcast.com%2F&v=hGcvMD0i60k]

Fast AI and fragile enterprises: Phil Fersht with Gary Hoberman

In the latest episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, Phil Fersht sits down with Malcolm Frank to unpack why the IT Services model is starting to crack, as well as what comes next once AI reshapes delivery, scale, and value.

They delve into topics from Wall Street’s growing skepticism of traditional services economies to the challenge of scaling extraordinary people. It’s a conversation that cuts through the noise to find where real advantage will be created in the AI era, and the gap between hype and execution is rapidly growing.

This isn’t about chasing a first-mover advantage. We’re not even sure that matters anymore. It’s about understanding which business models can actually scale, and which ones are set to fail.

What you’ll hear in 30 minutes

 * Why Wall Street no longer trusts five-year cash flows in IT Services.
 * Why extraordinary people don’t scale and what replaces that model.
 * First mover versus fast followers, and where the real advantage is created.
 * How hyperscalers are positioning themselves as the new advisors
 * The parade of pretenders, and what it signals about market transitions
 * Where the next generation of service winners will come from

Guest Snapshot

Malcolm Frank is a longtime technology services leader, advisor, and board member with more than three decades of experience helping services firms scale through major market transitions. He has held senior leadership roles at firms like TalentGenius and Cognizant.

Explore More 

Malcolm Frank on LinkedIn:   [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbjZPQkRGUEoweUxwOVB5a2lPS2ZETXI2NUwwUXxBQ3Jtc0tsdjBqWDNKWm9LTFgyaG5QQnFQdHpnR3JvM1hzWGtpaTR5aldhZjdtTEgxTnlYaElkdDkySXdLaGF5N2pFc19hRkdFRlVybnhnQzZXZUd0SkRia095WkxiWktpbFlYQzhlVlhHT0lySkNRby1tazhTcw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fbriansolis%2F&v=lkBRJtWX-Tg]https://www.linkedin.com/in/malcolm-frank-92028/
Phil Fersht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/
More from HFS: https://www.hfsresearch.com [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbEFxU3pwVGY1dkJoTjJpaFVDZlRwV0JISXp5Z3xBQ3Jtc0trNzExNTRlU2dGMmRMejZ1RlNpVkJMM1BJYWxIbTg3NVBPM2M2V0oxTEMySGZVOEYyam1wSjJJaVZiLTB5TnlXMVJhVUNCRXlpempfTFZqQW9lM0IxTnZrMU5nMkg0bFVvLUFqLXV4aVFQQ0Nmc2k3UQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hfsresearch.com%2F&v=lkBRJtWX-Tg]
More from From the Horse's Mouth: https://horsesmouthpodcast.com/

AI Pretenders, platforms and scaling extraordinary talent: Phil Fersht with Malcom Frank

There will be AI winners and AI losers. There will be no middle ground.

In this candid and wide-ranging episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, Phil Fersht is joined by Tiger Tyagarajan to unpack why 2025 was the beginning of the services industry finally moving beyond AI talk to AI action.

If you’re an AI ‘fast follower’, this is one you don’t want to miss.

What you’ll hear in 30 minutes:

 * Why 2025 was the beginning of a great separation between AI winners and losers
 * Why process debt is one of the top blockers to enterprise success
 * Why the fast-follower approach doesn’t work in the AI world
 * The end of “mess for less” and what replaces it
 * Why culture is the competitive advantage today
 * What leadership looks like once AI slices through layers of management
 * How AI is enabling smaller, faster, founder-led enterprises

Guest Snapshots

Tiger Tyagarajan is a global business leader, best known for his 13-year stint as the CEO of Genpact, where he helped the company evolve from its 2005 GE spinout into one of the top IT and Business services players today. Since stepping down as CEO, Tiger keeps himself busy advising global enterprises, private equity firms, and venture investors on all things AI adoption and transformation. He does this through advisory roles at BCG, Bain Capital, Brighton Park Capital, and many others.

Timestamps

0:00 – Welcome and intro to Tiger Tyagarajan
0:26 – Tiger’s career journey and advisory roles
2:26 – Genpact’s evolution and the problem of process debt
3:31 – 2025 outlook: AI winners vs. losers  
5:39 – Why there’s no “fast follower” strategy in AI
6:44 – What Tiger sees at BCG and global markets
7:08 – Middle East leapfrogging with AI investment  
9:01 – Competing as a smaller, nimbler firm
10:08 – Headcount reduction and the next service disruption
11:21 – Culture as the #1 differentiator in AI
12:14 – Faster, iterative transformation cycles
13:08 – The new operating model: people, agents, and AI budgets    
14:30 – Emerging challengers vs. Wall Street incumbents
15:03 – Why services are becoming a dirty word    
16:07 – Cannibalizing revenue to scale IP and margins    
17:35 – New job roles and changing talent models    
18:32 – The future of work: AI + human skills    
21:01 – How GenAI reshapes management work    
22:28 – Leadership in the AI era: trust and adoption    
24:09 – AI exploits, humans explore    
25:21 – McKinsey layoffs: reality vs. messaging    
28:18 – Big firms shrink, SMBs grow    
28:59 – Capital-light business models at a global scale    
31:45 – 2026 as the “year of how.”    
32:13 – Winning in the last mile    
33:22 – Final thoughts and wrap-up

Explore More

 * Phil Fersht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philipfersht
 * HFS Research Website: https://www.hfsresearch.com/
 * Tiger Tyagarajan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tigertyagarajan/?originalSubdomain=pt

From process debt to AI divide: Phil Fersht in conversation with Tiger Tyagarajan

As technology rapidly evolves, the world has undergone a significant transformation. Society has shifted from being human-centered to a complex web of digital automation, AI, and human workers who support it. This rapid innovation outpaces regulations and threatens social mobility.

The rise of AI presents a critical challenge: how can businesses and policymakers ensure that AI enhances, rather than hinders, human creativity and innovation? Automating routine tasks could free up people for roles requiring creativity, problem-solving, and emotional intelligence, but it demands a focus on continuous learning and digital literacy.

The first season of From the Horse's Mouth: Intrepid Conversations with Phil Fersht explores the intersection of AI, work, and society, aiming to shape the future.

HFS Research

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