Transcript
Jennifer Gulizia: Welcome back to the Backyard Bouquet podcast. I'm really excited about today's guest. Matt Powers has written more than 20 books about soil and regenerative growing. His textbooks are sitting in classrooms around the country right now, and he teaches soil science to growers all over the world.
Jennifer Gulizia: Perhaps you've even seen one of his YouTube videos. But Matt didn't come up through agriculture at all. Matt was actually a touring bass player in New York. And then he spent years teaching high school English in the Sierra foothills of California.
Jennifer Gulizia: He met his wife Adriana in New York when she was managing a flower shop. which I love given that this is a flower podcast. I wanted this conversation with Matt today because most of us are in fall prep mode.
Jennifer Gulizia: Perhaps you're taking out your summer garden beds. You're treating fall as cleanup time. and you Many of us don't spend enough time thinking about our soil health until spring comes around.
Jennifer Gulizia: I feel like this is a huge missed opportunity for our growing seasons, and I'm excited for Matt to help us understand what we should be doing this time of year. So without further ado, Matt, welcome to the Backyard Bouquet podcast.
Matt Powers: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to dig in with you.
Jennifer Gulizia: I am too. um So this is a fun fact. Matt and I are in a mastermind together. And. ah I found out, I think, after an event last year about this time.
Jennifer Gulizia: And I was like, I can't believe I missed my chance to meet you in person.
Matt Powers: yes
Jennifer Gulizia: And I think today is our first time actually getting to have a conversation. So I'm super excited for this. You are so knowledgeable. about soil health. But before we talk about soil today, can you tell my listeners who you are in your own words?
Matt Powers: I originally was ah a skier. in New England, and... That's all I wanted to do is go fast on skis and then I had knee surgery as a team.
Jennifer Gulizia: m
Matt Powers: and lost that whole dream. and became a musician. And very quickly, I just kept, applying I went away to school to train to ski. And so I applied the same work rigor. and focus.
Matt Powers: to music and very quickly i was touring with you know Saturday Night Live's drummer. And, you know, hanging out with U2's producer and he was giving us advice on our record. and And it was a lot of fun.
Matt Powers: but my wife got cancer in the midst of all that and I... Went from like partying to not partying in the middle of that. and we went from you know being young and you know single at the beginning of that journey to being married having a child and So things like changed really rapidly for me and I became a substitute teacher Under duress essentially I moved I moved out. I left, New York City
Matt Powers: because she wanted to recover with her her mom. And then we were in the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas. and And I was teaching the sixth most violent county in America. and it I was stuck there.
Matt Powers: And so I started subbing. because we needed healthcare care and it turned something on within me. and It's who I am.
Matt Powers: And... It's funny because my mom was a teacher and my mom's mom was a teacher. And I didn't like school and I didn't like teachers. But I became a teacher. like like the the the process of subbing and seeing how neglected our kids were educationally like triggered something like deep within me and made me Made me realize that like I was so lucky to have the education that I had had.
Matt Powers: and I wanted to do more and like that's like where like I feel like might like really integrated. and whole self really came together was in the context of me being.
Matt Powers: A husband. a father. And it... part of the community. where I'm giving back and really trying to help people. and like have the like comprehension skills, having writing skills, having reading skills.
Matt Powers: Because that's like the linchpin for all. all their success all their comprehension all their you know analysis and and even like what we're talking about metacognition Like that's where it begins, right?
Matt Powers: And so, and I mean, because they' essentially Brendan is teaching metacognition. He's teaching us how to think about thinking. and that's what you know teachers actually do is we focus on that and so i became like deeply embedded in trying to figure out how to help. and In doing that, I realized Most of these kids aren't going to college.
Matt Powers: And the few ones that are trying to get the free ride, it was like I figured out it was like 20 ,000 kids in all of America were getting free rides. So like the free ride promise was like a pipe dream.
Matt Powers: And so I was like, we have to figure out how to get these kids. information that would actually turn into a business. And and and that that's why I applied permaculture and I started writing curriculum. And then I started teaching teachers. I got my master's degree.
Matt Powers: And I just started teaching online and creating curriculum for everyone and it all... took off and I did Kickstarters and I'm still just a teacher though. And a lot of the way I think, a lot of the way I... what I think is fair.
Matt Powers: comes from that place. of being a teacher comes from that place of being. you know, a person that Uh... was like, well, how is this person?
Matt Powers: that's not going to go to college going to get by. And have a good life. And so... And not only that, I realized you know there's only two modalities we teach.
Matt Powers: and test four in school and there's nine different intelligences and so i was like oh this kid's at that intelligence and like that's just well in life you know and so i just became this facilitator and that's What a lot of what I do with with with permaculture and soil science and microscopy is I'm just an educator and a facilitator and so That's why I'm creating a database so that the microscopy folks can actually
Matt Powers: have people see their work for the first time, see the results for the first time. and and really support and... and and uplift and provide a pathway. for the business and the industry itself.
Matt Powers: just like we would as educators for you know, getting kids into college or getting kids into a certain trade. So so that's that's really who I am. And it's wild because... you know, it turned into me writing books and rewriting.
Matt Powers: how to do soil science and how to test. and finding all these. crazy simple things that I like I explained to my dad why soil science math is all wrong in like a minute.
Matt Powers: And he was like. Yeah. You're saying that's how they do it. And I'm like, that's how they do it, dad. He's like. Well, I'm glad you're there, son.
Jennifer Gulizia: though
Matt Powers: Yeah. Because it is that kind of ludicrous when ah you apply common sense, when you bring eyes onto a lot of this science, you're like, well, that's not. Alright. you know. We can't do that forever.
Matt Powers: And so, so. it's it's been an absolute privilege but I really fell into it because I was trying to find a way to grow clean food for my wife
Matt Powers: And we knew that food was the one thing. the soaps and the shampoos, EWG, right? Those things that we can control that we put on our inner bodies was all I could control.
Matt Powers: I went through years being really upset and so the only thing I could do is grow a garden but I'm in The Sierra Nevada is in 140 degree soils, and so I had to figure it out.
Matt Powers: but i figured it out so well that it became it like launched me into this whole world. And it's just, ah it's been pretty amazing. But...
Matt Powers: But it's all much more knowable than folks realize. i think I think... um that's like the biggest takeaway is like a bass player becomes you know And I had a really good education.
Matt Powers: Like I went to really good schools and yes, I was a ski racer and everything and a ski bum. but i was really lucky it got me it got me into some some good schools because of it And so...
Matt Powers: I was able to have a really good education and and I was able to. really transmit that to these kids. that had no education. and see that if you just hit their modality rate.
Matt Powers: They're geniuses. And so I was like we have to create things that ignite people and liberate people and and and And so... i'm i'm I'm a student advocate.
Matt Powers: and and it I teach would would teach kids about seed saving and soil. As an English class.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh my gosh. They didn't know they were signing up for permaculture.
Matt Powers: So this is what I was going to show you. Yeah, that's right. that's what i did and some people thought it was inappropriate and crazy and some people loved it
Jennifer Gulizia: Well, thank you for that introduction. I'm sorry to hear that all of this started from your wife's diagnosis with cancer.
Matt Powers: Yes.
Jennifer Gulizia: And that was what year?
Matt Powers: Oh, it was so long ago It was 19 years ago.
Jennifer Gulizia: So she's in remission now.
Matt Powers: Right about now. She hasn't had cancer in years, but she's had cancer over seven times.
Matt Powers: she is from the medical world she was a phlebotomist she does blood draw on everyone.
Matt Powers: And in New York. you know, New York Methodist in Brooklyn. Everyone's everyone. you know even little babies even mean you know hiv positive like dangerous, you know, things you get stabbed, you know,
Matt Powers: She knew a worker who got... The person was struggling and then they got stabbed with their HIV positive blood. And so they had to go completely into a different thing. And so she's very medical. She trusts everything medical at this point in life.
Matt Powers: And so me disagreeing with them not being a doctor was... It was hard, you know, We we became all organic. We started doing regenerative permaculture type things.
Matt Powers: But you know the best thing we did I think probably was we got. Oh. like really, really good regenerative Milk. You know local milk and then local meat I think that was one of the most important things for us.
Matt Powers: And so I did everything I could, but but man, it was it was very difficult. But... that's that's the That's why I'm here.
Jennifer Gulizia: and Well, you are quite the expert in soil health and soil biology and chemistry these days. How did you go from... Having your little garden to kind of grieve. and deal with processing your wife's diagnosis.
Jennifer Gulizia: to realizing this is something that I could teach as a teacher? Was it your science background? What was it that all of a sudden? What was that light bulb moment that you realized? I understand this and I can teach permaculture.
Matt Powers: So I was at a school that had no books and it was all. MacBooks. And it was ah Apple certified and Google certified. charter school.
Matt Powers: So it was one of these experimental schools. And so I had to create all the curriculum myself. Which was the best possible thing? because they disagreed with all the curriculum because I was...
Matt Powers: Spoiled. Just that's how it is. I was spoiled and I got into a boarding school that was like 44 or 45 in the country. And i I was I was I was literally.
Matt Powers: with the underclassmen in the study hall because I always had such bad grades. So they got me into this really really good school with my skiing and then my knee went out and a knee surgery and he never could take a turn at 60 miles per hour again the same way And it was so devastating, embarrassing, just awful. Awful embarrassing.
Matt Powers: You know, it's like, this is what I've known for since I was a kid, like like little, little kid. My brothers are junior Olympians. Like all this stuff, just like. super hard. Um, But I was stuck in that. And i so I felt like it didn't belong there.
Matt Powers: I felt dumb. And then something like snapped in me. And I started getting good grades and I started doing the work and being able to perform. um And so like I applied all that. you know, that's that's that's really where where I got that that idea from. And then...
Matt Powers: And then I... That's why I see that in other kids. I'm like, you just gotta find the thing. Find that kid's thing. Boom. And so I felt that way about myself. um and What was the question again?
Jennifer Gulizia: How did you start teaching permaculture? How did you realize you could teach it to these students?
Matt Powers: Right. Right. And so like, I was a hard student. to begin with. And I had this explosion. I had this changeover. And so then I was like working with all these kids.
Matt Powers: writing all this curriculum And I was learning permaculture at the same time as I was doing my master's degree. My master's degree is on developmental psychology. educational psychology, and best practices that have proven research -based in the classroom.
Matt Powers: So it's all really pragmatic stuff. And I just applied that and then realized like we're doing the opposite in public education. and so i was like okay i need to like figure out how to like couch this and then permaculture is principle based.
Matt Powers: the actual structure of the way you design the curriculum called permaculture. is principle -based, like first principles. Everyone talks about like, well, we've got to design this from first principles, right?
Matt Powers: You just find what's universally true in a system and find the guiding things that connect those things together. essentially. And so... it nature. It's the...
Matt Powers: universal cyclical principles that are universally true about soil about the cycles of soil about the microbes and the minerals And with minerals, it's chemistry.
Matt Powers: they're saying you know you're with nitrate you're going to need four times as much H2O to process that in a plant. than if you had ammonium. so or or amino acids, right? Those will give you energy as you uptake those.
Matt Powers: but but ah but But like it's immutable. It's an actual immutable like. chemistry law. And so it's like, we were. we have to deal with these things as they are.
Matt Powers: And so... I recognize that there's these systems that allow people to create frameworks of understanding. that are self -verifying. And so what does that mean?
Matt Powers: Will you have the ability to prove this thing to be true or not? Regardless of me. and and And as gardeners, we're all doing that. we we're like we're We're really citizen scientists partnering with nature in a feedback loop between nature and ourselves.
Matt Powers: But if you have a framework of understanding that's strong... it gets stronger every truth you encounter that agrees with it.
Matt Powers: And so and so and then you might find like like ah you might find something that creates a. uh contradiction And then that means that there's a caveat to that rule, an exception or range, right? And so developing this framework of understanding. using permaculture. this way of proving it to yourself. this way of self -empowerment ah it was It was invigorating.
Matt Powers: And so I combined all these things. And I was in Jeff Lawton's class and I was like, there's no K through 12 permaculture curriculum, Jeff. I do this in my sleep.
Matt Powers: I teach teachers how to do this so they don't do homework anymore, so they can get higher grades. on standardized tests. And Jeff goes, I'll make a deal with you, Matt. And he was and he was like you got to give me ten years print and like print rights.
Matt Powers: on the Arabic. And I'm like. The Arabic? It's like, let me translate it to Arabic and print it. As many as I want. And I'm like. Okay.
Matt Powers: It was hilarious. At a certain point, Like his wife is like, Matt, you got to take out the pig. And I'm like, what? it's like pig uses like how do you like thank you It was so funny.
Jennifer Gulizia: This is for a book deal you got with them.
Matt Powers: hilarious.
Jennifer Gulizia: um Not quite following there.
Matt Powers: No, no, no. Jeff Lawton allowed me to turn his permaculture design course, which is the world famous online permaculture course. that most people who have taken permaculture courses know about.
Matt Powers: um It's kind of like a standard.
Jennifer Gulizia: Gotcha.
Matt Powers: he was He's a protege of Bill Mollison, just like Darren Doherty of Regrarians is. And so anyway. I took his course.
Matt Powers: I turned it into curriculum for kids and combined some messages.
Jennifer Gulizia: Gotcha.
Matt Powers: milk for quokka some sepholts or some other disciplines in. but primarily It's the permaculture thing. And so I asked permission and and and he said, do it. And so, but but he said. let me turn it into an Arabic thing. He printed 3 ,000 copies.
Matt Powers: of my first book in arabic there were more copies of my first book in Arabic than there were printed for years in English. So. So... Yeah, yeah. Super interesting guy, Jeff Lawton. he He's Australian, but he married someone up in the Middle East.
Matt Powers: um And so he's got he's got his foot in both worlds. ah and And so that's really the reason I created it was because it was something that was easy and it was a vacuum.
Matt Powers: And I just, I've always applied, this goes back to Brennan Burchard. You taught me early on about the blue ocean strategy And the thing is...
Matt Powers: Even like my teachers No, no, I didn't get good grades. I was like a B minus student for like ever And like... They all said Matt is a quirky kind of intelligence like you want if everyone goes outside Like into the gym and everyone's clapping and stuff. I can't do it So I zag when everyone zigs.
Matt Powers: So this is a natural thing within me? to do like everyone's going there i'm like something's wrong i'm not going there And so it's just an actual thing for me. um And so when I learned about the blue ocean strategy, which is to go out where there's no other sharks. There's no competition.
Matt Powers: Red Ocean Strategy is like... we're coke and pepsi we're going neck to neck and neck and then it's driving our prices down and it's all pennies and Awful. Blood bath. Red Ocean. I don't want that. so i do blue ocean strategy i look for where there's a real great empty space of need.
Matt Powers: and And... It's easy because... everyone can recognize the need immediately. And then... And this can work with flowers. you find the niche. unoccupied niche or niche or whatever word you want to use if you're british or not um that you find this space where no one's touch it and i i always think about from skiing i think about it as this the trail where no one's gotten to yet
Matt Powers: So it's just pure... Just snow. It's beautiful. And and it it's yours. You get to do whatever you want on it. It's yours to put your line on it. clean piece of paper too when you're writing a book. There's just something about that.
Matt Powers: So... so yeah no i just started writing curriculum and then the curriculum thing got crazy because adults took my kids course. And I was like...
Matt Powers: What? And they're like, you make it understandable, Matt. And I'm like. Oh. Because I'm calibrated to teach kids. And then I realized I'm calibrated to 8th, 9th, 10th grade.
Matt Powers: That's what I'm actually trained for. And so when I write and communicate, it hits us right in the newspaper level. And so people, it's like easy for people to get. It's like eighth, ninth grade reading. It's New York Times level. like difficulty.
Matt Powers: so so it's that's really why i stuck with it i did a kickstarter while i was still a teacher Made $26 ,000 in 30 days on book sales?
Jennifer Gulizia: wow
Matt Powers: And yeah. Yeah, it changed things a little bit. hu
Jennifer Gulizia: Awesome, well let's talk about some soil health today. What is it? that drew you to soil health and understanding the soil more as you were teaching.
Matt Powers: Yeah, so when I got into permaculture, I realized that soil... was the linchpin to every single project method everything relied upon the soil And it's like, okay, this is your filtration system. It's like, yeah, well, if you don't have the life in that. filtration system and then the soil to accept it properly.
Matt Powers: it's it's not going to be able to cycle properly. It's it's not going to be remediated. If you don't have the right soil for... For your trees that are calibrated properly, you're not going to get fruit, let alone that tree to grow very well.
Matt Powers: may die. yeah everything came down to the soil again and and again and again, and then everything returns to the soil. And so it became the nexus for me and everything I taught.
Matt Powers: And I realized, and this goes back to Jeff, Jeff talked about in in my original permaculture course with them. that some people just fall in love with the science of soil. And it was so funny because I was like, not me, weirdo.
Matt Powers: Cause I was like, it's just, you know all you do is just make the compost, throw it together and it's good. Compost is compost. And then I got more educated and realized compost is not compost.
Matt Powers: there are tailored compost. You know, and I had put bull manure. Down and I had essentially killed my garden with hot compost. that was still high in nitrates.
Matt Powers: And so I was very aware, painfully aware. that good soil was the key to everything. And I also so was doing things...
Matt Powers: I started doing Elaine Ingham stuff. And and i that was that was also part of my first book. Dr. Lane Ingham worked with me one -on -one. She taught me one -on -one starting then.
Matt Powers: I mean... If you want to like get into my science education, it really starts with her. you know i definitely did other things in science i had science classes and everything But...
Matt Powers: But it was the one -on -one teaching with her her encouraging me telling me Like literally just. telling me that I was good at this. that actually gave me more confidence to do more And she always, like, taught and...
Matt Powers: she had this She used to have this business partner that would always be so mad at me. She'd watch my videos and be like, Matt, you're giving everything away. Elaine should have never told you that. And I'm like. Elaine's telling me secrets.
Matt Powers: like like Like, you know, I felt very special. you know? And so like, I felt very special. I felt like I was being told these secrets. And then I was being told I was good at science. and Growing up, I was not very good at chemistry. At least I liked Nature Channel.
Matt Powers: I love being outside. I loved animals, but it's New England. It's like there's not much going on. You know what I mean? in terms of Compared to like the West Coast, like there weren't very many animals, comparatively.
Matt Powers: You know, and so, so I, I. I saw it as the linchpin. It was the thing I had to conquer. to fix my site and so what happened was I was doing the compost teas.
Matt Powers: and doing a compost. pit. And so I watched grandma do this. my my my wife's grandmother, so my kid's great grandmother, we lived with them.
Matt Powers: for nine years. in their garage. And so I just copied her.
Jennifer Gulizia: Wow.
Matt Powers: but I was drinking Water Keefer for my Crohn's. So I'm doing waterkeeper for my crones and if you make waterkeeper you end up having a lot of excess Waterkeeper Grains. The same microbes are in the Pro -EM1.
Matt Powers: And if you know EM1... You know that.
Jennifer Gulizia: What is EM1?
Matt Powers: Oh. So EM1, I'll tell you the main...
Jennifer Gulizia: I think we're way. basic compared to maybe your your science level here.
Matt Powers: This will be perfect to start with, though.
Jennifer Gulizia: We're...
Matt Powers: because folks
Jennifer Gulizia: Perfect.
Matt Powers: You know these. You've eaten these. This is... Lactobacillus. This is lab. People call it lab. Lactobacillus is the long rod bacteria that's safe.
Matt Powers: that's in all our ferments. It's one of the things that makes the lactic acid that makes it so that the ferment stays. ah but under biocontrol and stay safe.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: There's yeast.
Jennifer Gulizia: We see it on our yogurt, right? Like yogurt sometimes says it and contains it.
Matt Powers: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: And then. and then it has yeast saccharomyces cerevisia so beer cerveza So, it's beer yeast, bread yeast. And then it's purple non -sulfur bacteria, rhodocytoma and asplostris. I know it's a mouthful.
Matt Powers: but that is also in all the probiotics. But these guys. are actually End of fights. that are also saprophytes that are edible.
Matt Powers: So these are in
Jennifer Gulizia: You might have to explain what both of those are too.
Matt Powers: s Saprophytes, saprophytic means they break down. uh dead organic matter so they so so The thing that turns... you know the compost you know down down into soil that that those things are s saprophytes And then endophytes.
Matt Powers: our endo inside. So endophytes are things that live inside. So we have gut microbiome. right Plants have it too. And their gut microbiome is...
Matt Powers: these endophytes. And so. What's crazy is... Their gut microbiome. is a probiotic? Yeah. So. There is a loop.
Matt Powers: of probiotic microbes that are in healthy plants, that are in healthy soil, that are in healthy compost and healthy guts. So there's actually... Like... like these are guiding and they're you universal so if you go out in nature and you're just going to plant sap these guys are going to be in it And these are a concentration of it. So when you apply it to plants, they pick them up and they pick up anything they carry.
Matt Powers: So if you're like, I want to deliver a chelated form, a biologically chelated form. of a mineral to my plants at a specific time. you do a foliar spray.
Matt Powers: You have the microbes that go inside the plant. Deliver it.
Matt Powers: So when people are doing microbial foliar sprays, Almost. Always. It's this. And they'll call it different names. EM is the effective microbes. Dr. Higa came up with this in Japan.
Matt Powers: This is something that... that that Everyone has like a right to do DIY. If we talk about what was being done in Ireland.
Matt Powers: They were doing need. and porridge. and food and blood and bone. and so there would be lab in there there would be problems over bacteria in there there would be definitely you know yeast in there And so these are microbes we've used all over the world.
Matt Powers: They're food safe. They're the way we do. preservation and a lot of the microbes we use are food preservation microbes, which is really important to recognize. People get so worried. They're like, Microbes? You mean germs? You're putting germs on food?
Matt Powers: And it's like, no. no There's these fungi called mycorrhizal fungi that partner with roots and they ah they all started together. like as we go as far as we go back to plants And all the records, all the archaeology, all the fossils.
Matt Powers: Mycorrhizal fungi has always been in their roots. So we know that they belong together. And when we bring them back together. We inoculate the roots of our plants, inoculate the seeds, have it in the soil.
Matt Powers: They... get like 30%, 40 % more growth. They have all these immunological advantages. They have selenium advantages, all this wonderful stuff. It's similar to this. This is through the plant sap.
Matt Powers: this is on the leaves this is in the soil this is actually being taken in and put it out taken in and put out And so this is going into us and coming out too. And it's carrying information about our environment. When people say like eat local.
Matt Powers: These microbes are carrying they're specific DNA calibration in relation to your soil and your climate. your area. and then the the gut biome. is recalibrated by that information.
Matt Powers: And so this is why where we eat local. were in actual concerted discussion and feedback. with the microbes that make everything safe.
Matt Powers: So these microbes, that they literally are biocontrol. They're the things that people talk used to talk about. laine and Dr. Elaine Ingham, she would talk about how it enforces and protects the plant.
Matt Powers: Problems over bacteria. For you? Jennifer? And anyone doing flowers? Propyl non -silver bacteria If you feed it certain foods, you increase its ability to create essentially like a like a biofilm bioplastic Waxy layer on the leaf it enhances the waxy layer on the leaf. So what does that mean? that's a longer lasting flower.
Matt Powers: that inhibits
Jennifer Gulizia: oh
Matt Powers: uh blight these so So these are the things that they talk about, you know, colloquially being like, oh, they they're a standing guard. they actually create a like a physical. uh like biological barrier and And you enhance that that that that waxy.
Matt Powers: you know epidermis layer too so so This is a really good thing, but you can DIY it. You can start with a culture from them and grow it up.
Matt Powers: You could also get... pure cultures of purple non -server bacteria. And he's working on different formulations, Ken, the guy who does this. He's working on different formulations for us.
Matt Powers: um I'm actually probably going to tell him about the bioplastic one. because then he would create that. He's a total genius. So... So these microbes are essential. um And when I figured that out, it really opened my eye. eyes to the cycles.
Matt Powers: And that's how I teach everything. I go, how is soil created? what was created regeneratively. Naturally. through the natural cycles. It's the way plants do it and these microbes work in nature.
Matt Powers: And so it's like, well, all the degenerative bad. farming examples. The only reason they could misbehave was the soil was there to begin with. So... These are tried and true pathways.
Matt Powers: And if we understand the science... and the pathways you naturally and my students are like this all the time they're like mom well this means this I can just do this. And it's true. You'll find shortcuts.
Matt Powers: You go, oh, I could use that waste product for that? You go, oh, wait. You're saying that's a fertilizer and not a waste product? And so it like revolutionizes everything. And like for you guys.
Matt Powers: you know, something that you were just alluding to about soil i'll throw something out there and we could go back and forth on it i'd be really interesting to see how you feel about the season ending crimping Because...
Matt Powers: This works really well.
Jennifer Gulizia: You're talking about with a cover crop when you're terminating a cover crop?
Matt Powers: for a certain problem You're terminating a cover crop with a roller crimper with blades. so it it decorticates it as it goes and it kills the plant, but it makes it so that there's a slow release back.
Matt Powers: I was talking to a farmer this week. about how They would. trim all these different plants back and then their roots would release water and he has a reservoir beneath this this farm where he can see the water release from the plants He's removed the caps of them.
Jennifer Gulizia: Wow.
Matt Powers: It's just the roots. And the roots release. All is water. And so, so Knowing that. That water is not water. it's exudation with these microbes.
Matt Powers: Right? And more microbes, of course, more microbes. But... When we realize that it's exudates and we want it to be a slow release because it's not just exudates, it's nitrogen. So when people are doing flail mowing,
Matt Powers: They're releasing tons of nitrogen, yet it's breaking down fast, but you're losing your carbon. you have You'd have to.
Jennifer Gulizia: o
Matt Powers: Like how else would it? break down that fast. if you're not using carbon in the carbon and nitrogen ratio composting cycle right so what they're doing. with this crimping stuff. Ray Archuleta is a good friend of mine.
Matt Powers: they They do the hollow stem rye. That's what Rick Clark is another very good friend of mine. They do hollow stem. and they crimp it. And then... uh they The - The cereal rye is dead.
Matt Powers: and they plant the soy right into it. It is organic soy, no spray. and and There's no weeds. all summer.
Jennifer Gulizia: Amazing.
Matt Powers: it's It's a real...
Jennifer Gulizia: So explain that. And like the eighth grade textbook level so that my listeners can understand what you're. saying here.
Matt Powers: so so I'm really curious how you guys would feel about using a crimper because for some people crimping works really well. and for some flowers i bet it will and for some flowers it might not because they're like oh i like being chopped down let me do it again you know and you might want to shift things.
Matt Powers: But if you can leave roots in the ground and terminate a plant in place, it'll slow release the nitrogen and the exudates back into the soil. And what they've figured out is it's hundreds of dollars.
Matt Powers: of of money. That's being gassed off. And so if you leave it connected to the soil, you leave it like instead of flail mowing and gassing it off you leave it connected to the roots but kill it it drains the value back down into the ground.
Matt Powers: and those roots break down in place. is there mycorrhizal? inoculated roots They are the inoculant for next season. So you never have to buy inoculant again.
Matt Powers: So we want to do crimping. What you would do... is after you harvest your flowers you're gonna go and you're gonna take a roller crimper and i don't know how you might be doing it market garden style, right? Then you have maybe probably add some extra weight if you're doing like the the BTS thing, like ah Jean -Marc Fortier.
Matt Powers: another good friend of mine. Um, But if you're doing a bigger roller crimper, it's way easy. You can cover a lot of ground. you basically are terminating the crop. You know taking those bases of those plants what's left of those plants turning it into the mulch. that will be the barrier and this makes it so that people don't use glyphosate they don't They don't spray.
Matt Powers: So... There's some caveats here though. So Rick Clark he He hasn't used glyphosate in over a decade. His problem now is he... didn't do tillage.
Matt Powers: So it's super fungal, it's super reduced redox, right? That whole part of the soil science. So in other words, it's it's highly energetic. It's great. But he's growing trees as his weeds now.
Matt Powers: He's gone up the secession ladder. to create forest with that soiled so good. But that's not what you want. He wants a crop. So he needs to do... the the the the tillage That's aeration, so you're ripping.
Matt Powers: Right? your straight shank rip. or that thing where that goes down and wings out. so like lifts the soil and aerates the soil but doesn't destroy destroy the structure the structure there's all these new things
Jennifer Gulizia: Is that where a power harrow that kind of mixes it like a blender?
Matt Powers: That's different.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: So this one is simply it's going underneath and lifting it slightly and dropping it. So it's going six to eight inches down. Cutting. So it's cutting the roots. So if you have a plant or like uh yeah if you've got something that's going to need termination At that root level.
Matt Powers: that's what you're going to do is is get one of those tillers that is actually just a blade. that you're drawing. across and it's lifting things slightly and putting it back down as as you're going so
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay, I've got a whole bunch of questions right here for you um to make sure that my audience is also following because we have some backyard growers that listen to this and then we also have flower farmers.
Matt Powers: Nope. Yes.
Jennifer Gulizia: that are listening
Matt Powers: I cannot believe it. with ah the hung gardener too.
Jennifer Gulizia: Awesome. So... A couple things that I want to make sure I'm understanding. You're talking about. not just a cover crop, but like... For example, if you have a row of zinnias.
Matt Powers: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: At the end of the season. You're saying you could crimp them down.
Matt Powers: You might be able to.
Jennifer Gulizia: If you. You might be able to. Something like Dahlia's would not work.
Matt Powers: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: For example, in my field, I have 4 ,000 dahlias, but we have to hand dig them. And then we remove all of the plant material. Because. 86 % of Dahlia is on it. approximately carry a virus, potentially.
Jennifer Gulizia: And so you don't want to leave that in the ground.
Matt Powers: Figuring that out, I think, is the key. so so These things specifically control virus. pathogens and diseases.
Matt Powers: And so, and then, and okay, so. the only reason you'll get a virus or pathogen or disease is microbial deficiency. or mineral deficiency and a lack of coherence. Because you can add all these things all at once, have a big soup.
Matt Powers: And like not have it be soil yet, right? And not be have it be functional yet. right And your numbers will look great, but it's just a pile of stuff. Right. but but But yeah, no, i would I would look into trying to figure out.
Matt Powers: Out hot approve. that you're
Matt Powers: inhibiting that. because what will happen is that won't go away if it's in your soil it's in your soil What will happen is it will inhibit it. And so your plant will... it may be even been infected with it, but it won't manifest.
Matt Powers: That's what's going on right now with American Chestnut. they have american chestnut growing that has the virus in it and it doesn't care. and they're trying to promote that one even as people are doing GMO versions. of Anyway.
Matt Powers: But um, but the yeah, that's what I would say to that
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay, but so what I'm trying to picture is... So dahlias would not work to crimp because you've got to cut them down and dig them out. Something like zinnias, where... The roots will degrade in the soil.
Jennifer Gulizia: So right now for me, let's take my farm as an example.
Matt Powers: Amen.
Jennifer Gulizia: At the end of the season. After Frost Comes. My dahlias. Everything turns to mush, mostly like my zinnias will start to turn brown. Right now, I don't do anything. I leave them standing, let the birds feast on the leftover plants. And then in the spring.
Jennifer Gulizia: I usually take them out. And at that point. The roots have gone away. basically been eaten by the underground microbial life. Is that what I should be doing or should I be doing something else in the fall to clean up my plants?
Jennifer Gulizia: I don't have a crimper, so I'm guessing most of my listeners don't have a crimper either.
Matt Powers: Yeah, so... So the idea is that you want to cover the soil as much as possible. Obviously, we want to the cycles right like i'm always like i want to feed the birds i want to feed the pollinators
Jennifer Gulizia: So do we.
Matt Powers: But, if you I mean... If I was running a flower thing, I would be doing rose. of of cover crops. that are like the path. Right. and then And then doing like...
Matt Powers: a combination of crimping that and then um Maybe mowing it. so that So you've seen Jean Martin Fortier, right?
Jennifer Gulizia: I have his book. I've not watched any of his videos or anything.
Matt Powers: Okay, so he takes his like BTS mower, right? And he would mow the cover crop. and then blow it on top of where you just pulled all the things out. at the end of the season. to be mowing that that that that cover crop.
Matt Powers: Hi. So you're not removing all of it. and having it go across that to cover it because you want to cover it
Jennifer Gulizia: Mm hmm.
Matt Powers: and and then he would uh be like covering that so i'm often going to be covering that with a tarp to like kill it and have it go even further and faster um but you could then grow that out a little bit further and crimp that down.
Matt Powers: Um...
Matt Powers: Are you doing tarps? Are you doing tarp termination or just letting it go?
Jennifer Gulizia: For me, at my farm, we've got different things going in different places. So, for example, like my zinnias and marigolds and strawflower. status all of the like cut and come again type flowers.
Matt Powers: Hmm.
Jennifer Gulizia: Once we have frost, I just kind of ignore it and I leave it all. Until. spring and I let the birds eat the love.
Matt Powers: you dress it like cover it with leaves or something
Jennifer Gulizia: I don't do anything. I haven't.
Matt Powers: Okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: So I'm curious, what would you recommend for us?
Matt Powers: ah Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: At this point.
Matt Powers: yaa Covering it. Yeah, covering it. And the crazy thing about leaves. Everyone's like wood chips, wood chips, eating garden. No, no. leaves.
Matt Powers: in my microscopy work. Leaves. Leaves have like such high lignin. It's like when we clean the gutters. We all have this experience I think you clean the gutters you find like leaves from like Forever or ago, you know like skeletons but they're still there.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Matt Powers: like That's real. they last forever and for food in a compost they last years and So what I figured out was that leaves have this really long slow breakdown Wood is fast.
Matt Powers: white rot brown rot finds that wood and it's gone it turns into mush but leaves take so long and they fractionalize and so you're finding sections of leaves and stuff that's four years old So... So I, and someone might be like, oh, that's not complete. When you get down to the microscopic level, these things are fractionalizing down smaller and smaller. So yeah, you can see these things.
Matt Powers: And so. It even recomposted. Like you can take that compost and put it into another Johnson's soup for another year and another year and you'll still find leaves. So so it is and it's also going to be the highest fungal numbers So I would dress that. in leaves if you can.
Matt Powers: um I would I would. knock things down and get things to cover the ground as much as possible. And then I would treat it with something like this. so that you have biocontrol especially if you have pathogens
Jennifer Gulizia: What is this for those that aren't watching on YouTube?
Matt Powers: Right, so I would use propyl non -sulfur bacteria. This is also used in remediation. This will eat oil spills.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh wow.
Matt Powers: Right. And then this is lactic acid bacteria in it. And that eats. glyphosate. So, so like.
Jennifer Gulizia: No way. So if you have a fallow field that used to be covered in glyphosate.
Matt Powers: And then you can make lab yourself. Like I have all the recipes for all these things to DIY it. The musician DIY thing never went away. and so like that's what i do is i really help people who want to scale up, do a DIY or they could buy it. I know the people who sell it. Those people who are great. They're great, great people.
Matt Powers: But I also have it so that. you can verify it. Because it's really important that that people don't just be like, oh, this is the thing and then do it. It's like, well...
Matt Powers: your soil might already have mycorrhizal fungi. you know. and and And for some of you, you already know all about mycorrhizal fungi because maybe they're doing something like orchids and those don't grow without mycorrhizal fungi, right?
Jennifer Gulizia: Interesting. Okay, so So what I've been doing with leaving all the plant material for the birds is maybe not the best thing for my soil. I should be. cutting them down but leaving the roots in the soil. Is that what you're saying? And then covering it?
Matt Powers: so So two things. number one if you're having birds come in the every time they eat they go to the bathroom So you're definitely getting free fertilizer there. so So I would make sure the soil is covered, but if you can leave some stands of things that are going to attract birds and have...
Matt Powers: that amendment in there. um Where are you you situated?
Jennifer Gulizia: We are in Hood River, Oregon, in the Columbia River Gorge.
Matt Powers: Okay. So they're going to be bringing in sea minerals. You're gonna get things from those birds that are gonna have minerals from the ocean, minerals from the the the riparian areas.
Matt Powers: So I think that's really good to do. but But I also think you just got to keep it covered. And then... um
Matt Powers: Biocontrol is like a huge part of it. I really think that biocontrol is really important ah Have you... Have you ever hooked up with any mushroom growing? facilities.
Matt Powers: because they're figuring out that the mushroom blocks...
Jennifer Gulizia: No.
Matt Powers: Those mushroom blocks have special properties. like for us medicinally they certainly do but but for plants and soils they're incredible
Jennifer Gulizia: Aha.
Matt Powers: And I know. Some people get worried because... It will kill the nematodes for a little bit. But then it's beneficial nematodes that eats it.
Matt Powers: in a few days to a few weeks. so So it's all cycling fine. You know what I mean? It's ah it's actually a successional reset when you're adding mushroom blocks, spent mushroom block. ah you know, substrate.
Matt Powers: And so that's really good for composting, but also people are putting it directly in into the fields, into the soil and working it in. So that's something that might be so of interest, especially because if people are dealing with root. root not nematodes uh root feeding nematodes This knocks that. out.
Jennifer Gulizia: And that's spent mushroom blocks.
Matt Powers: Yeah, and it's a waste product for mushroom companies. So people are growing oyster mushrooms. People are growing polypore mushrooms. These things... Kill. Nemetodes.
Jennifer Gulizia: No way.
Matt Powers: and it's Yes! And when I first told people about this... ah there were certain people that were like i guess selling the blocks or something And most people would just give them away. but But they were like super upset because they're like, you're ruining my business.
Matt Powers: And it's like, just. tell them it's two weeks from now, then it'll be good. But but yeah yeah, it's just all cycles. And that's the thing is is a lot of people are focused on...
Matt Powers: On. soil in a way that doesn't respect the cycles. You gotta to give room. Just like with Brendon Burchard and giving ourselves that that space to grow. and like prepare ourselves and we have to do the same thing for soil to be successful.
Jennifer Gulizia: Awesome. Okay, can I ask you a few more questions about soil?
Matt Powers: Let's go! Let's do it! Let's do it!
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay, so I'm thinking... We're in the fall right now.
Matt Powers: Mm.
Jennifer Gulizia: These farmers and gardeners like myself are needing to prep for winter one thing you I hear a lot about cover crops and we do cover crop on our farm. I can cut.
Jennifer Gulizia: we have 20 acres so we're fortunate we can do some crop rotation and i can cover crop and then let it rest most
Matt Powers: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: People don't have that luxury to be able to cover crop one area and grow in another area and rotate because they're limited on space especially as flower farmers Most of us grow flowers until a frost happens.
Jennifer Gulizia: It's really hard to then cover the soil with a cover crop after frost has taken place. Is there a cover crop that we can still put down or do we just need to cover it with leaves at the end of the season? What is the best advice there?
Matt Powers: So... So if you're going like into the into the fall hard You can be... campaign and growing. something that uh that that grows enough that it doesn't like hurt your harvest.
Matt Powers: but it's also there. so that when you terminate it, um It's a benefit. So one of the things I would do is check out green cover seed.
Matt Powers: Green cover sheet as a calculator is a free calculator. and they recommend 8 to 12 way cover crops. because they're focused on. using cover crops to fertilize the soil for next season.
Matt Powers: And so...
Jennifer Gulizia: That's where we get our fur or our cover crops from.
Matt Powers: Oh, really? Keith is a good friend.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yeah.
Matt Powers: That's awesome.
Jennifer Gulizia: Awesome.
Matt Powers: Do you ever go to the Regenerative Nexus events?
Jennifer Gulizia: No.
Matt Powers: Okay. All right, well. Well maybe. Maybe. You could go to the the Sonoma County Napa Valley one. It's going to be sometime this winter.
Matt Powers: regen nexus I'm going to try to go to that one. There's one in Lubbock I'll be at that one. I usually go to the Scottsdale one, but they're shifting it to... to wine country california so i'm gonna probably take my wife to that one Because the ocean and her is a thing.
Matt Powers: So if I just get anywhere near, she's like, boom, and she's gone.
Jennifer Gulizia: Awesome.
Matt Powers: And she's with the water. So with rocks and she's collecting rocks. She's a rock lady. Bird lady, rock lady, that's all, yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Love it.
Matt Powers: And right now she wants Purple Martins. So I'm probably gonna have to put in the whole. hanging thing and...
Jennifer Gulizia: Love it. Awesome. Okay, so people should check out Green Cover Crops Calculator. We'll include show link notes to a lot of these things. Okay, here's another big one because...
Matt Powers: but i would but i would but I would like literally.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh.
Matt Powers: time the crop. Because he'll tell you. It's not very long before you terminate a lot of these things.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: So you got to know your last frost. You got to companion plant it. Maybe you're you're doing it on the sides. Maybe you're... you know, i Yeah, I don't know how you would do it. um I mean, I would just take a Jang Cedar and like run alongside it.
Matt Powers: You know? uh and the in the interface between the path and that when you're thinking like right there and then And then that would be injecting some goodness.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: But. i mean if you're at that because that's the thing is it's like if you're not doing machines and you're doing all hand stuff I would just do like a jaying cedar or something like that along that row.
Matt Powers: and and
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: I like using paths for cover crops. because I can do that thing where you mow and throw. You know it over to you
Jennifer Gulizia: I love that idea. yeah
Matt Powers: And that's an orchard thing, and that's also a Jean -Martin Fortier thing.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: yeah he's got The thing is, he's got such a... dialed in Everything style then. It's those long winters.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay, awesome. Okay, so yesterday... When we're recording this, we're recording this end of September. I had 60 yards of compost, organic compost delivered to my farm.
Matt Powers: All right.
Jennifer Gulizia: is compost something we should be adding in the fall or what are your thoughts on adding compost to our farm?
Matt Powers: That's super interesting. So how much are you going to be adding per acre? like Or inch.
Jennifer Gulizia: ah
Matt Powers: Like how much do you, how do you do?
Jennifer Gulizia: I was planning to put. two inches on top of all my beds when I take the dahlias out this fall because we've got more dahlia space. then we can. Silage tarp.
Matt Powers: What do you up
Jennifer Gulizia: And it's going to be true.
Matt Powers: after you put it down. What happens next?
Jennifer Gulizia: Uh... That's where you come in.
Matt Powers: Okay, so... it So you spent all that money, spent all that energy, and you're putting it out there. The sun. and the air are going to pull nutrients and value.
Matt Powers: Out of that and it's going to make the life have less food so we want to cover it And then. Okay, so where's this compost coming from?
Jennifer Gulizia: It came from an amazing supplier. They're Rexius in Eugene, Oregon.
Matt Powers: Okay. Okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: um And it's an organic. compost I bought before. I've had really great germination success with it.
Matt Powers: Okay, good, good. You know, folks and folks at home definitely know. It is like rolling the dice unless you... Do your homework and vet what they...
Matt Powers: Most of the best composters They're buying their inputs. It's not like, oh, we just got the trash in from the city. Let's make some comp. No. No, they're like, m we have to buy more of this input. to create a balanced compost. so that it's the output.
Matt Powers: of the style and pH and all these different things that match my target. So something I would say is... Know the pH of your soil currently, and if you're putting two inches down, know the pH of what you're adding.
Matt Powers: because Hot compost is invariably pH 7 .5 to 8. Most people don't know this. they think of it as it's but it's but there's fungi and i see the fungi I've got stuff that's pH 8 that is fungi all throughout it.
Matt Powers: So it's not it's not that simple. you got to do a little bit extra work and look so i would look at that compost especially while you have it all together before you spread it right so i would i would I...
Matt Powers: I would make lab. lactic acid bacteria because any of the nitrates in there will turn into amino acids and then they'll stick go into the microbes go into the plants it won't gas off So, so...
Matt Powers: You can make lab yourself. Recipes in my book. Recipes are... are on the internet too. Um... you could scale up em But I would.
Matt Powers: spray that pile down with something that will lock in the nutrients.
Jennifer Gulizia: Ooh, I love that.
Matt Powers: that way.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: Yeah. So what happens is we do the hot compost because it's efficient. We do the hot compost because it was this illusion that like it killed things. It doesn't kill everything negative, actually.
Matt Powers: It can create problems at too high a heat. It can create problems. just if there's problems going in. So like pathogenic E. coli can make it through the heat now. And that's something that's a newer development over the past 20 years.
Matt Powers: but it's real. And so this is why all the professionals are finishing their compost. The people were like, I am biological. And they're like, oh, I don't need to do sterility. Like those guys.
Matt Powers: Watch what they're doing. They're using worms every single time. because two to three weeks of worms running through that compost and there's no pathogenic E. coli. So so this is like a wonderful one of those universal truths That's this' part of the reason why we're alive. is because like... These natural processes clean things and reset things.
Matt Powers: So I would... throw a bunch of worms in there if you've got time. You got enough time, actually. Yeah, so I would... I would make a bunch of this.
Matt Powers: If you've got that, you've got enough time because this will work in one to two weeks.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: So I would make a big batch of this. um You can get totes of this if you wanted to do that route. from you know tarragonics or from em row usa and SZD probiotics, all these sorts of people. but it's just those microbes. is nothing fancy.
Matt Powers: and And then you're going to be able to scale that up with molasses.
Jennifer Gulizia: Love molasses.
Matt Powers: Yeah. And actually, you're talking about end of the season. I'll give you a trick. If you're dealing with end of the season blight. And you're like, where is this coming from? it was in your plan to begin with and you have a systemic pathogen problem.
Jennifer Gulizia: m
Matt Powers: So that means it's in your plants already. and and And so why are they eating your plant now though? Well, because there's less sunlight, meaning there's less sugar now. So if you add molasses in at the later stages of your season, you can stave off those pathogenic, because they're switchers.
Matt Powers: they're endophytes and they're friendly. They're like the mob. They're like, we'll protect you. and then like when you stop giving him sugar they're like now we eat you yeah Maybe not the mob. I don't know.
Matt Powers: it's disturbing i guess but
Jennifer Gulizia: I love that.
Matt Powers: but
Jennifer Gulizia: okay
Matt Powers: But the alternaria... Aspergillus. You know, all these things that everyone knows are the late season blights. They literally were in there to begin with and you'll find all these papers being like oh There's a healthy plant with... Alternaria inside of it!
Matt Powers: and and they And then they... credit that there's the right minerals or there's the right endophyte that's retasking it. So, and and and realistically...
Matt Powers: It's got... A balance of microbes. but it's giving it the sugar and it's not allowing it to take over the whole plant. because there's other microbes there. Obviously, if we if we treated our soil with biocontrol,
Matt Powers: which is what that is we will make it so that that role, that endophytic role... that the aspergillus fumigatus that the alternaria that.
Matt Powers: all these pathogens that everyone's really worried about. We just occupy that role. The plant's not going to let them in. There's no room. And they've got that. and fortress covering the plant itself covering the roots itself So...
Matt Powers: so so So, yeah, no. Using this end of the season, using molasses strategically, and obviously... you got to do that on the drip you're doing flour so you can't do foliar sprays later in this
Jennifer Gulizia: I do foliar spray.
Matt Powers: on On flowers later in the season with colors?
Jennifer Gulizia: It... Well, i spray I spray lower on the plants so that I'm not getting the blooms.
Matt Powers: Lovely. All right.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yeah.
Matt Powers: You know cannabis folk they have something similar. They have to be done The cannabis folk, that they can't do anything because the flowers have to dry down enough and then or they get old.
Jennifer Gulizia: o
Matt Powers: So they're like. They're like trying not to do anything at a certain point and they they actually want to taper their nitrogen off. that they're all they They do just enough of everything. and they're dealing with a huge problem with Aspergillus.
Matt Powers: And they don't understand, like a lot of them, many of them do. But a lot of them also don't understand that there's this cycle. that the aspergillus is living inside the plant. This is why people are having aflatoxin reactions to grain.
Matt Powers: And people are like, well, glyphosate doesn't cause aflatoxin reaction. It shuts down your digestion. It ruins your digestion, right? It's actually the mycotoxins. So you have aspergillus and all these other mycotoxins inside. the grains.
Matt Powers: And the reason we know this... is because... they'll have these large silos of these grains feeding these animals at these controlled animal feed op operations. And the the the fungi that starts growing inside of it.
Matt Powers: The funja that eats. that grain in the silo. was already in the grain to begin with. Just add a little bit of moisture. It's Aspergillus. It's the thing that's... and it' and And they know because they're testing the calves.
Matt Powers: for what they're eating and they're poisoning calves and stuff and the calves are dying they're testing and finding that that's the thing that killed them it was aspergillosis So... it's in the feed and then it passes through their digestion And then it's in the compost.
Matt Powers: And so it's like, we're, and then. It's an endophyte, but it's also a saprophyte, so it lives through the compost. So it hides in the soil. It floats on the wind. They found...
Matt Powers: that there's there's mold spores from soybean fields. two to three states away.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh my gosh.
Matt Powers: So... Yes, it's such a big problem. And mold, i I don't know if you know about mold mold, but oh my word, mold is like the secret epidemic. That's like... Hey. hurting America.
Matt Powers: So mold is a huge problem. but but it's because we don't have. an understanding of biocontrol. We don't have an understanding of... Everyone's like, probiotic, oh, probiotic. It's like, yeah, you need probiotics on your body.
Matt Powers: You need probiotics in your soil. You need probiotics in your food. It's not like ah ah like a pill. probiotics is like the world should be covered with and teeming with these probiotics actually.
Matt Powers: And so, so That's one of the things I would say is that the end of that season you want to make sure that you're feeding them biocontrol like lactic acid the bacteria. or the whole consortium.
Matt Powers: and that you're giving them some sugar. So if you're if you're extending this or brewing this, You take this and combine it with equal parts. molasses and then 20 parts water to these one part so one part this one part uh molasses 20 parts water You cap it.
Matt Powers: and you ferment it for two weeks and then you have a ton more and it just keeps growing and And that's the... You'll eventually start running out of propanol sulfa bacteria unless you're doing this in sunlight And a lot of people classically would say, you can't grow the prevalence of bacteria because they're doing it inside. I do it outside and turn mine red.
Matt Powers: So. So I basically got into doing this stuff. um And... I... Water kefir, I was drinking it for my stomach.
Matt Powers: You have grains coming out your ears. because they just produce more and more grains so i started putting the grains in the pit compost putting the grains in the compost tea. And then my soil went from decomposed granite.
Matt Powers: which looks like sand. but it's crystals. It's crystals. So I change the pH. and they melted. And I made this unbelievable loan. And so I had generational farmers from the Sierra Nevadas coming over.
Matt Powers: being like Ha. How are you doing this? like What are you doing? like where. Like what are you adding? And you know, and I'm digging down to my shoulder looking for the horizon changeover between the old soil and the new soil.
Matt Powers: And it's gone. right and so so it it
Jennifer Gulizia: wow
Matt Powers: it It became this process and it. And it always started with microbes. I didn't know about these microbes. I was doing water kefir which has the same microbes in it. And I...
Matt Powers: I just... Fell into it just like so much of this stuff in my life I you know my wife prayed about. Leaving New York City and my job where I was getting paid $350 an hour to play bass Like... Ridiculous, ridiculous.
Matt Powers: So I was super spoiled, and then i went to I went and was stuck in a garage for nine years, you know, going to debt. uh like unsustainably. as a school teacher.
Matt Powers: Because I wanted to keep getting the organic food. And in California, they pay the teachers less and less and less every year. so So it just really kind of forced me to figure this out. And I would say... Make sure those microbes are going in. Make sure you're covering the soil.
Matt Powers: and make sure you're monitoring because If there's a viral problem, You can nip this in the bud. You can figure out how to work with that. in such a way that it doesn't manifest and then gets pushed out.
Matt Powers: Because what happens is it's a changeover. you're first going to block it from getting in the plant. It's still in the soil. And then eventually as the soil is cycling, they're not getting food, they're not getting in, they're not being selected for. and they just start senescing and then they're gone.
Matt Powers: Unfortunately, this is why. This is the same exact process that happened to mycorrhizal fungi. We did synthetic nitrogen. that turns the organic matter into something soluble. And so it leeches.
Matt Powers: and gets slurped up by the plant. And then we have phosphate going in, which says... to the plant, hey, hey, we got this free phosphate here. Don't partner. with the mycorrhizal fungi. we'll bring We'll give you the phosphate.
Matt Powers: So just like with cover crops that don't form nodules because there's enough nitrogen, When there's enough phosphate, our bruscular mycorrhizal fungi isn't selected for And so...
Matt Powers: and and And then... it's you're telling right classically right we tilt and so that exposure to uv exposure to air oxidation. killed what was left.
Matt Powers: So we lost mycorrhizal fungi that same exact way. And we lost these microbes that we're talking about. in that same exact way and that's why there's plant disease. play it play it plant viruses, pathogens. rampant through all of our systems.
Matt Powers: And we have to cleanse the systems and then establish a regimen of biocontrol that prevents them from returning.
Jennifer Gulizia: Amazing. Wow. You've given us a master class today. In soil health, and there's so much more that I could ask you. um But I know we are already over an hour here.
Jennifer Gulizia: So we're going to try and wrap this up. I have a few questions, quickfire questions to ask you.
Matt Powers: That's it.
Jennifer Gulizia: um And some of them that I normally ask, since you're not a flower farmer, I'll just ask you a couple of them here. ah The first one is. Do you have a favorite flower?
Matt Powers: Yes, it is the arugula flower, and it's because it has such a complex flavor.
Jennifer Gulizia: oh
Matt Powers: Have you eaten arugula flowers before?
Jennifer Gulizia: No.
Matt Powers: Okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: And I've got arugula growing in my backyard with flowers on it right now, so I might have to try it.
Matt Powers: Okay, so I just walk right up to the plant. And I just bite it off. I don't even like grab it and go like, like I just like. hu It's so much fun. And it has like...
Matt Powers: A combination of a scent. It's very peppery. but then it has like almost like a like a minty or something it's very interesting it's like a combination of two flavors And so I love that flower. And then I think nasturtium.
Matt Powers: I know it's edible flowers. I come from a world. As a heirloom seed grower, seed saver, plant breeder. Carol Depp was what got me started. You know Carol Depp?
Jennifer Gulizia: No.
Matt Powers: The resilient gardener.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh yes.
Matt Powers: Ugh. Oh, Carol Depp is so amazing. I love that woman. so So that's where I come from. And so I'm always like function. pun function but my wife is all about beauty.
Matt Powers: and and and and and having nature be there so like she's looking for the animal she's looking for the birds and then she's looking for beauty And so her garden this year I planted and she's like, never again, Matt.
Matt Powers: And so I was like, fine, next year it's all going to be flowers. It's going to be you. And she's like, excellent. So. But I had to do something to build up our soil and and and and get it functional first.
Jennifer Gulizia: Well,
Matt Powers: So I did tons of things in it.
Jennifer Gulizia: Awesome. Well, next year we'll have to get you some dahlias. And... Dahlias you can eat. um Some people, I just learned that some people have allergies to them. So word of caution.
Matt Powers: Okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: um They're part of the Aster family. So if you have hay fever or other allergies, you might be cautious.
Matt Powers: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: but um They, to me, taste, every dahlia has a little bit of a different taste, but I really think that they taste kind of like arugula.
Matt Powers: Mmm.
Jennifer Gulizia: So you might really like the dahlia petals. We put them on our salads.
Matt Powers: what Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. It sounds amazing. I would love that. And my wife would. Love that.
Jennifer Gulizia: Because then you get the beauty and once they are past their prime. So we usually take the ball dahlias once they're blown out open. And I'll just peel off some of the petals and throw them on our salad or I've eaten them out in the field. I mean, they're they're a little bitter, but I do think they taste kind of like. Some of it tastes like arugula, some a little bit like a radish. It's interesting.
Matt Powers: So that bitterness is is is reduction. so So the most reduced plants, the most energetic plants are the bitter ones. The dark ones.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Matt Powers: and so all the herbs Those are the most reduced. And so when people talk about redox and that's how it's energy based. when it comes to the actual food they're Remember redox reduction oxidation?
Matt Powers: There are antioxidants. Someone's like, I got to get my antioxidants in, right? Everyone already knows Redox, actually. and and And then we were like, wait a second.
Matt Powers: you're making the soil more reduced. Does that mean that the plants are more anti - antioxidant level like does that mean that there are more cancer but yes So it opens a whole health door. And what happens is people take my course sometimes and they stop eating the way they used to.
Matt Powers: Is that what I teach? Not what I teach, not a doctor. but But once you realize how the soil actually works. everything begins to change. So I invite everyone to dig deeper into soil because it will change your life.
Jennifer Gulizia: Amazing. Okay, I've got one more quickfire question for you, and that is, why do local flowers matter? To you.
Matt Powers: So local flowers matter to me, I think, in many ways, because the local economy is so essential. And and when people are... in a community. they're much more likely to do things the right way.
Matt Powers: the flowers that we're getting quite often. that are in stores and whole foods and things like that quite often not always but Uh... They're toxic quite often a lot of these flowers. They've been treated with so many chemicals. It's just smelling them is is the danger And so we really need and.
Matt Powers: and From my own experience, you know seeing the way flowers affect my mom. My mom has like birds of paradise and like avocado trees and uh So Mary, uh... Connecticut blooming.
Matt Powers: Like in the middle, you know.
Jennifer Gulizia: Wow.
Matt Powers: So so that's where I'm from. I'm from like a place where I saw my mom grow everything Like, with nothing. She's like, hmm, here. And she like grows everything like unbelievable.
Matt Powers: And so it's actually a sweet blessing. My mom and my wife are very, very close. and they're both flower people. And so I love flowers because I love them so much. And I see the meaning.
Matt Powers: and connection it has. And it's so funny. I mean, she's ah she's a super, super Scottish. She's descended from ah Robert the Bruce.
Matt Powers: And directly, it's like a grandfather. and and and the pics, right? The women, the Picts of Scotland. They covered themselves with flowers.
Matt Powers: and nature And they embodied that, like actually like the. it's so funny like the the flower pattern on the The China? was like literally what the women were tattooed with.
Jennifer Gulizia: Wow.
Matt Powers: You know, the Spears, the picks, the P -I -C -T -S, they're pretty amazing. So so I feel like it's so cool like core. to like... Like femininity in a way.
Matt Powers: Two. I know there's there's male flower farmers out there. Sorry, guys, but... but It's I see it as very core. to to them. And so...
Matt Powers: i I love when my my wife comes home with flowers and she does not like getting bouquets. She wants the flowers.
Jennifer Gulizia: She wants to grow them.
Matt Powers: Peace. Well, she wants to do arrange the bouquet herself.
Jennifer Gulizia: oh Oh, gotcha.
Matt Powers: She does not want it arranged. because she came from a flower shop and she does she did the arrangements too you know And so she was the manager. And so she like wants just the raw flowers.
Matt Powers: and to have them seasonally. to have them local variety native plants. Next time. All these things. calibrates you not just to your season calibrates you not just to you know this this this this heart side this this female power and and healing and balance.
Matt Powers: It's... you know i mean i grew up watching my mom do this and then seeing my wife get that same sort of peace and congruence from it It's real to me.
Matt Powers: And so, so yeah, no, I think local flowers are incredibly important socially. incredibly important, especially if you're adding in native plants and stuff.
Matt Powers: calibrating because people are smelling that. They're getting that pollen in there. They're calibrating themselves. physically epigenetically. I think it's all really, really important. And I think that beauty in our world, physical beauty that is...
Matt Powers: temporary that that that is there for a sweet moment and then goes is... Is the truth, first of all? these phones where like you know like myspace still has pages up right you know it's like it never dies on the internet That's not real.
Matt Powers: He does that live. When we participate in the seasons, when we're tied into our local community with real people. When we are. getting those fresh those fresh flowers regularly and having them as part of the scenery of your life.
Matt Powers: Um... i think it's really critically important it grounds you it makes you more present It makes you appreciate life in a different way. it's ah It's a sweetness.
Matt Powers: to life. And it makes us more human in a way.
Jennifer Gulizia: I love that
Jennifer Gulizia: Thank you. That's such a great. Great answer. Wow. We have covered a lot today, Matt. My head is just exploding with ideas, and I took a whole bunch of notes. I'm going to have to um go spray my compost this weekend.
Jennifer Gulizia: Before we say goodbye, For my listeners who would like to connect more with you and learn more about your work, where can they find you?
Matt Powers: If you go to www .regenerativesoil .com, or regenerativeoilscience Dot. .com. You can see all my publications there and you can go to.
Matt Powers: thepermaculturestudent .com, and all my books are there. and and and so my soul courses are regenerativesoilscience .com and on the permaculturestudent .com but all the permaculture stuff is only really on the permaculturestudent .com.
Matt Powers: and if that's too much just type in matt powers into google and i'm the whole first page
Jennifer Gulizia: Awesome. Well, we will include links to both of your courses and then you also have a whole bunch of YouTube videos. as well that people can start there.
Matt Powers: Ah, yes. okay
Jennifer Gulizia: Is that correct?
Matt Powers: Yeah, like. hundreds and hundreds.
Jennifer Gulizia: I've had so many people on this podcast send me your videos and say, I want you to bring Matt on. so When I... Found out we were in the same mastermind. And then we started talking.
Matt Powers: You may go.
Jennifer Gulizia: I was like, oh my gosh, this is too serendipitous. I have to have you on the podcast. So I'm so glad we did this. Before we say goodbye, is there anything I haven't asked you today that you want to leave our listeners with?
Matt Powers: Hmm. Well, yeah. and All this stuff when it comes to doing regenerative is easier than you think. It's a lot of upfront work, like getting all the pieces in, getting the minerals coherent.
Matt Powers: But once you have a system that's working, it all becomes easier. You save time. The microbes are doing the work for you. the the the pattern becomes predictable. So the seeds, the plants, all of it behave differently.
Matt Powers: pathogens, they they don't come back. And I've seen people who are absolute beginners. Also working with, you know, difficult plants in difficult situations.
Matt Powers: Yeah. just figure this out in a very short period of time so Everyone can do it. You can do it. Thank you for being here.
Jennifer Gulizia: Thank you so much, Matt. This was so fun. All right, go. Check out Matt's courses and his YouTube videos. and I love that you are helping us create more beauty through our soil health. So thank you and have a great day, Matt.
Jennifer Gulizia: Bye -bye, everyone.
Matt Powers: Thank you so much.
