Transcript
Jennifer Gulizia: Welcome back to the Backyard Bouquet podcast. My guest today is Ryan Levesque. He's a number one.
Jennifer Gulizia: National bestselling author, he wrote the book Ask, built and sold two companies and writes a weekly newsletter called The Digital Contrarian. Ryan and his family moved to a 200 -year -old farm in Vermont, where they now raise about 80 % of the food they eat. Ryan's new book is called Return to Real, The Last Human Advantage in the Age of Artificial Everything. I just finished reading it for the second time. And I've been recommending it to pretty much everyone I talk to. So having Ryan here on the podcast is a really exciting moment for me because I believe this is a really important topic in today's digital world. And as a gardener and a farmer, I think you're going to really relate to this conversation. So without further ado, Ryan, welcome to the podcast.
Ryan: Jennifer, it's awesome to be here and I'm really grateful for this conversation.
Jennifer Gulizia: I'm so excited. I read your book and my listeners know, well, when I say I read. i now This is one of the few books that I've bought a physical copy of. Because I've listened to the audio two times over and I'm like, I have to go back through and highlight it.
Jennifer Gulizia: Because I think that. we are in a digital world and My listeners in particular are very concerned. about what's happening. ah In the digital world, what's going to happen?
Jennifer Gulizia: And I think that we actually are in a really special spot. Whereas people want to return to what's real. that being a farmer, being a gardener is going to matter more than ever before.
Ryan: I agree 100%. um i uprooted my family, moved across the country. and change the course of all of our lives. uh deeply believing.
Ryan: exactly what you just described.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes. Well, that was why I listened to it and I'm like. He is preaching everything that I so wholeheartedly believe in this time and industry. and where we are in the world So...
Jennifer Gulizia: I'm curious, you wrote the book Ask in the early 2000s.
Ryan: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: You've built and sold multiple companies. You've had a successful career. In business, can you tell my listeners what was the wake -up call? that brought you to farming.
Ryan: Yeah, it's a great question. And in some ways, it's It was a series of things that happened in my life. It wasn't like I woke up one day.
Ryan: And this one thing changed everything. It's like you start seeing the signs almost everywhere. And for me, it happened in a few ways. There's a story, of course, that I open up with in the book. where we were living in the state of Texas and we lived through the Texas winter storm.
Ryan: um of of 2021 that um uh the entire state of texas uh power grid went down and i don't want to spoil the story that the the book opens up with but it was a it was a moment that definitely was a a keystone event in my life that really shook our family to uh the court and caused me to kind of reconsider.
Ryan: what it is that we were doing as ah as a family. um But there are a million of million small things along the way. You know, I think um um I grew up. you know, a boy who played in the woods. And I grew my first vegetable garden when I was 12 years old. And ah and I think. you know So I've always had this desire.
Ryan: to get back to the land, get back to what's real in my life personally. um Another accelerant was ah during the pandemic, during COVID, when restaurants were closing down, I kind of fell back in love.
Ryan: with cooking. for my family, preparing food for my family. And I just kind of went down this path of um you know, you're shopping at the grocery store and you're kind of like the ingredients, especially for fresh foods like produce and meats, it's okay. you know it wasn't great and so that led me to go down the path of shopping at whole foods and Whole Foods is very expensive. And in some cases, the the quality isn't. that much more amazing or it's being sourced from some far corner of the world that just doesn't feel sustainable.
Ryan: um so that led me down the path of shopping at farmers markets and we visited some of the local farms that we were purchasing from and i saw some of the practices that they were engaged in and and it really wasn't amazing like it was closer to home but like for example the quality of eggs that we were getting from uh farms in our area was was not any better in fact it was probably not as good as the eggs that we could get at at the grocery store so it kind of took me to this place where the only logical conclusion i came to is that if we want to up level the quality of food that we're eating as a family that we've got to grow it ourselves.
Ryan: And that was just a threat I could not. let go of and it took me on a path that led me when one one summer when our Our two kids were away at summer camp.
Ryan: I ah stepped away from our business. I stepped away from my daily work and I traveled to a farm.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Ryan: in the mad river valley of vermont and learned how to raise and grow food with my own two hands living in a tent bathing in a pond being deeply connected to to the earth And it was in that moment that I had.
Ryan: what I describe in the book as my big awakening. it was when the light bulb came off like all of these small things that were kind of coming up in in domesticated suburban life where I just felt like this is where we're meant to be as a family. This is what we're meant to do next. um And that was the moment that. that led us on what we call in our family the grand adventure.
Jennifer Gulizia: I love your grand adventure. I think that so many people. especially of my listeners listening to this podcast who are flower farmers or gardeners. It wasn't their first career and they've. they feel like they're on this grand adventure too.
Jennifer Gulizia: ah One of the things that really pulled me in on your book. is that you shared that you watched Kiss the Ground. and biggest little farm, and those change things for you.
Ryan: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Um, I was growing on a small scale and we lost our growing space. and I started this podcast to stay connected to the flower industry.
Jennifer Gulizia: And several of my listeners reached out and said, you have to watch Kiss the Ground and Biggest Little Farm. And those two documentaries literally changed my life. And I'm curious, what happened when you watched those? Did you watch them before you bought your farm?
Ryan: Oh, gosh, yeah, we were. So we don't. Watch a ton of. television as a family.
Jennifer Gulizia: uh -huh
Ryan: But when the kids were that age, we basically um would do two family movie nights a week uh friday nights and saturday nights we have two kids in our family and we basically are on a four -person rotation where ah
Ryan: member of the family gets to choose what it is that we're going to watch and one of those two nights each week has to be a documentary so we kind of cycle like one fun movie one documentary um and we kind of were on this path where every documentary that we were watching as a family was related to farming and food and regenerative agriculture and permaculture in some way shape or form so um yeah biggest little farm huge impact in our thinking super inspiring kiss kiss the ground i mean i could i could go on i mean i have a i have a spreadsheet where i've kept track this is a few years ago now so i don't have it like loaded up into my short term uh ram but um
Jennifer Gulizia: ah
Jennifer Gulizia: Love it.
Ryan: We have a spreadsheet that just tracks everything that we watch. and it's probably three or four dozen. um some like random, like low budget. you know not not big mainstream documentaries about like you know growing food in the backyard to all sorts of you know building in community and and sort of everything in that in that genre and so for us as a family it was hugely inspiring
Ryan: And it was interesting because it was actually in one of those documentaries that I saw just a ah speaker. who is among like a a cadre of speakers, but just you know these documentaries.
Ryan: they bring in experts and they come in they speak for 30 seconds and you know the next expert comes in and speaks and and one of those experts turned into someone who's become a dear friend and a mentor of mine, who's actually the the creator of that farm that I found myself on.
Ryan: where where i earned my permaculture design certification. uh author of the resilient farm and homestead ben falk and ben is a leading voice in the world of permaculture and regenerative agriculture and i remember
Jennifer Gulizia: oh
Ryan: It was sort of like this kind of twist of fate sort of thing where I had this opportunity to to learn from him on his farm. And then sort of retrospectively, you're saying, oh, this guy's face is familiar. I've seen this guy somewhere before. And then I went back to kind of our list of documentaries and I saw his name. I'm like, oh my gosh, like he's been in like four of these documentaries that we've seen. And it was just like this really cool full circle moment. So yeah, but well before we bought our farm, we were kind of living vicariously. in some ways. through all these documentaries they were watching as a family and they were transformative. on our journey
Jennifer Gulizia: It seems like there were like little seeds being sown. In your life.
Ryan: Oh yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: For your family.
Ryan: Oh.
Jennifer Gulizia: like this is going to happen. And it just took some time for them to grow and germinate.
Ryan: And I think most people... Like... yeah I think what was unique in our case is like so many people watch documentaries like this, they do the reading, they, you know, and it's like, okay, this is inspiring.
Ryan: for a moment and then you let life take over. and you just kind of go back to the way things were and i think
Jennifer Gulizia: Totally.
Ryan: What we decided is we weren't we didn't allow that to happen. we said like we just kept feeling this pulling out our hearts we we're going to do something about this. And and for me, um you know, and I write about this in the book, I think for those of us, if you're listening to this right now and you're you're like dreaming about your grand adventure, taking your family on this experience or even just yourself.
Ryan: um There is never. Ever. Ever. A good time. Like there's always. um some reason you can convince yourself why now is not the time to be doing this.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Ryan: And especially if you've got a family, you've got kids, you've got schools, you've got doctors, you've got work, you've got the million things that are going on in your life that will that'll convince you like.
Ryan: that it's that now is not the right time. And I think for me, And I write about this in the book. um what what what brought me to a ah place of action. um is these two photos I have of my kids.
Ryan: and um in one of these photos my two boys are i think three and five years old they've got big oversized bright rain boots that are just way too big for their feet and they're walking on this path ahead of me and they're holding hands and it's like just this really cute thing and i just remember taking my phone out from like behind them and being like I gotta take a picture of this.
Ryan: I just gotta... to Remember this moment. I got to bottle it up. and then um I have another photo. It's the same thing. they're On a path. ahead of me they're definitely not holding hands they're much bigger they're much taller and they're much further ahead of me on the path
Jennifer Gulizia: oh
Ryan: and um i think it's seven years that took place between those two photos and It was like a heartbeat. I mean, it was like it just. a blink of an eye and and that was this reminder for me that Windows open.
Ryan: Windows close. Windows do not last forever. And so I think we have this tendency to think like this energy that we have around pursuing this thing in front of us, whether it's. building of a flower.
Ryan: garden or farm or or farming produce or livestock or any combination thereof.
Jennifer Gulizia: Farm, yeah.
Ryan: that it'll always be there. And yes, it may. but maybe not. Like we're not promised tomorrow. um the creative energy that we have around uh an endeavor and pursuing something like that creative energy waxes and wanes it doesn't it doesn't forever persist. It's there.
Ryan: And then and then it and then it it it disappears. You have the go -go years, and then you have the go -slow years, and then eventually in life you have the no -go years. Where all those things that you wanted to do, you just lost desire or even physical ability to do those things. And so I kind of recognized this this storm of everything that was happening. And it just something in my soul said, if you're going to do this thing.
Ryan: It's now. And it made no sense on paper. It was just totally irrational. and um And we decided to. Uh, become the crazy family from Texas, sell our house, road trip across America, spend a year bouncing from Airbnb to Airbnb, and eventually landing on this 200 -year -old hill farm in the Green Mountains of Vermont where, yeah, we raise and grow 80 % of the food that we eat as a family. And some days I i think I'm absolutely insane. And then other days, um I think this is...
Ryan: you know everybody should have some version. of of this and find a way to make it work.
Jennifer Gulizia: I 100 % agree. And I think that was why I read your book. And I'm like, He just so perfectly says everything that I i want to share because... Because I have this platform with this podcast. We share publicly about rebuilding our farm from the ground up.
Jennifer Gulizia: Every week I have someone reach out to me, whether it's a large creator or just... an everyday family that is In the nine to five hustle and wants to.
Jennifer Gulizia: put their hands in the dirt and grow something real. People are reaching out and I... It was about six months ago I was driving up to our farm. And I heard a larger podcast.
Jennifer Gulizia: And the gentleman was interviewing someone and they were talking about the American homestead and saying, well, it's not really possible. You have to have $5 million dollars to start. And I'm like, no, I actually reached out and I said, no, that's not true. I'm like, we literally sold our house. We sold everything. to buy this. bare piece of land that had knapweed that was five feet tall. So I love that you show and that you just mentioned.
Jennifer Gulizia: Anyone can do this. i
Ryan: You have to, I mean, look, it's... ah I say so it's not easy. um and But there's a passage in the book, and it's words that I say to my boys often, and I write about this in Return to Real.
Ryan: Choose your hard. Otherwise, your heart will choose you. It's all hard. Being in a nine to five.
Ryan: in gridlock traffic and stuck in front of a computer all day. is is a form of hard. ah living life knowing that there is part of you being left unlived.
Ryan: this craving, this desire that you have that you're not. allowing yourself to pursue, that's hard. um ah taking your kids out of school and homeschooling them is hard. Letting your kids be on a screen all day is its own form of hard. It's all hard.
Ryan: Like, it it it just all is. And as soon as... you kind of accept that. that whatever path, you know being getting wealthy is hard. Being poor is hard. Being healthy is hard. Letting yourself, your body wither. and atrophy.
Ryan: is another form of hard. It's all hard. So if you allow yourself to accept that it's all hard. and then have agency around this idea that I'm gonna choose. my form of heart.
Ryan: that is so empowering. to me. And yeah, there are days when I'm out. you know, ah moving cattle or I'm out. you know in a big harvest and i'm exhausted and it just happened yesterday i mean like we have this We have so much land.
Ryan: And I was just trying to. Like. try to get my hands around some of the leaves that need to be. you know taken care of um and when i lived in suburbia like it's like yeah you just rake up the backyard put the leaves in a pile put them in bags and then they're gone and here it's like i know there's no we can't even make a dent
Jennifer Gulizia: aha
Ryan: in the leaves like we just can't make it done But I do need to rake some of the leaves. Otherwise, we're going to have like two to three to four feet of wet leaves up against the foundation of our farmhouse.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh my gosh.
Ryan: like we have 250 year old maple trees that are like right around our our farmstead our home and
Jennifer Gulizia: Wow.
Ryan: And like, if I don't do something about it, like it just, you know, next spring, it's going to be like five feet of snow on top of four feet of leaves. And it's just going to be like forest floor. We're going to have no, you know, there's gonna be no grass um right around the house. So I have to do something about it. And I'm like, I i go through the oscillation of.
Ryan: Ryan, you're an idiot. why Why did you sign up for so much work you know in the middle of it? And then at the same time, I'm thinking to myself, it's a beautiful fall day. It's 60 degrees outside.
Ryan: If I didn't have this to do right now. My time, which is just another four -letter word for your life. My life. would be filled up. with some BS computer work that I would be finding an excuse to have to work on.
Ryan: and and And then I just reframe the whole thing. What a gift. to be able to be outside in nature, doing this, moving my body physically in this beautiful setting that I probably would have filled it with something far less optimal. for my health, for my well -being. to to fuel my soul. And it was just like that reframe.
Ryan: And I think that's like a microcosm. uh times a million We were planting um garlic on Sunday this this past um this past weekend.
Ryan: fall garlic to get into into the ground for next spring. and um And like garlic's been a big thing for us. We really. have been planting a lot we've been doing a lot of experimentation with different varieties and like just really maximizing our seed garlic and trying to get like as the biggest cloves that we possibly can get and and that's been a multi -year journey and um Trust me, the temptation.
Ryan: was there of like, do we just. Skip garlic. Like, do we really want to put it into the ground this year?
Jennifer Gulizia: aha
Ryan: And then I'm thinking it's been a multi -year journey. that we've been just selecting better and better varieties for our tiny little microclimate here. And it's the best garlic that... i've ever cooked with in my life these clothes i mean it it would be sold in the in the in the grocery stores elephant garlic like that's how big these cloves are and it's like great hardneck garlic it lasts all winter but we've got we went crazy like we have like
Ryan: six or 700 head of garlic.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh my gosh.
Ryan: Yeah. we just don't go through all of it like we just we can't we can't make enough we can't use enough of it so we really paired it back this year to i think we did 300 we did 300 cloves which will be you know If we get 100 % yield of the 300 head of garlic, we'll probably get like 275. And I'll probably...
Ryan: go through about 200 of it. And then 75, I'll say the best 75 for seed garlic next year and just kind of propagate like that. But like their moments were. you know yeah it's like do i really want do we really want to do this like it's so much easier to just garlic get garlic at the grocery store um but then i remember how rewarding it is to to cook with it and um you know garlic is just one of 100 things we do on the farm.
Ryan: So anyways, i'll um I'm starting to ramble a bit, but my my point is it's all hard. like planting garlic on a cold.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes.
Ryan: fall. november sunday when you'd rather just stay inside and you know watch football or um you know hang out with the family inside or do whatever you're gonna do otherwise um the temptation is always going to be there but i can tell you having done it i'm so glad We put the time and effort to to do that. um And it's like what makes life worth living.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely. It reminds me what you just said. One of my past guests, her name is Claudia and she has a YouTube channel in the garden with Claudia.
Ryan: Hmm.
Jennifer Gulizia: And I was talking to her about being tired. It was around the holiday season. And she was like, I just remind myself. How lucky am I to be tired from the work I once prayed for?
Ryan: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: And we're digging dahlias right now. And so. if We planted garlic yesterday. And after this recording, I've got to go out and continue digging our 4 ,000 dahlias. And so my mantra this week is, how lucky am I to be tired from the work that I once prayed for?
Ryan: Yeah. You know, the day, like the your worst day. in this life right now. Uh, is a day that your past self only dreamed about.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes. Oh, that gave me goosebumps. I love that.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes. So... I think that was what was so amazing. You had such a successful corporate career and you just You didn't wait though for a perfect moment. You just, you were ready. You just said, why?
Jennifer Gulizia: Let's do this to your wife. Did your wife have any hesitation when you're like, let's do this?
Ryan: We had been talking about it for quite a while. um And so. when i did that trip our boys were at summer camp i went to the mad river valley of vermont living in texas i get up to vermont i'm living in a tent bathing in a pond Like I'd i'd never done anything really like this before. Cause yeah, I was.
Ryan: you know I built a very successful business in the digital space. I built a software company, um of ah marketing automation software, and then built a training and education company, largely delivered virtually. so i'm you know I'm deep in the digital world.
Ryan: definitely a technologist. And so um When we started going down this path. um And we had been talking about it for months. And so I don't think it was a total surprise. In fact, we lined up a real estate agent in case we wanted to sell our house. And in some ways that... trip to Vermont was like the final decision -making thing. Like if, if we're going to do this, like this is your chance to kind of, you know, experience it and and try it out for sure.
Ryan: um And so when I texted her back with one bar of service and I said, hey, honey, I think we should do it. Let's put the house on the market and see what happens. It wasn't a surprise. What was a surprise um was that the first person that.
Ryan: saw the house, the first person that went to a showing made an offer. uh all cash full price and they wanted a 14 -day close which i had never heard of before in a very hot austin texas real estate market at the time um that was the thing that was the surprise that was the like holy crap this is happening moment like i need to get back to texas Thanks.
Jennifer Gulizia: Really doing it.
Ryan: and our kids like literally got back from camp um and it was like guess what boys um We are.
Jennifer Gulizia: I love it.
Ryan: ah Yeah, we're selling the house.
Jennifer Gulizia: And how many years ago was that?
Ryan: This was the 2000. 22. So this is... we moved We made the move in 2022. um here we are in 2026 so we've got 22 23 24 25 26 yeah this is like year five in this um in this journey this grand adventure
Jennifer Gulizia: I love it. I love it how you refer to it as a grand adventure, because what a cool opportunity. for your kids to also grow up. putting their hands in the dirt every day. One of the things you talk about in your book. is instead of grabbing your screen first thing in the morning, which...
Jennifer Gulizia: really has made me reevaluate things for me because I am a farmer. And I'm out in the field all day. I normally grab my phone first thing and I'm like. Okay, Jennifer, don't grab your phone first thing in the morning. What are you doing? You put your hands in the dirt all day. Do you really want to start your day?
Ryan: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: with your phone in your hand.
Ryan: Yeah. um The expression is one that I learned from a ah colleague of mine, Ali Jafarian, and it goes like this. First thing in the morning. um before you you know get sucked into whatever digital vortex you you tend to fall into first um The antidote is this.
Ryan: Touch earth. before touching a screen. So the premise is... Very simple.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Ryan: you know Wake up in the morning, first thing, before you reach for your phone, check your messages, check email, check social media, whatever you would naturally do. um you You resist that temptation and instead you step outside and you find the first patch of bare earth. You take off your shoes, you take off your socks, and you just take a moment to ground yourself.
Ryan: on the bare earth and you take a nice deep breath. And you remind yourself that you are a biophysical being. in a biophysical world. And you are deeply. deeply connected to the natural world.
Ryan: And you just take a moment to just accept that. You look up at the heavens.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Ryan: Oftentimes I'm doing it, it's still dark outside, so the stars are out. And you just kind of... remind yourself. It's like a visceral reminder, a somatic experience that, yeah, it's easy for us on a podcast like this conversation to say, yeah, you're connected to the natural world.
Ryan: in yeah yeaha i know that it's like the dentist telling you to floss your teeth Okay. But feel it, man. like
Jennifer Gulizia: Yeah.
Ryan: Like feel it. Feel. Like the... you know the yourre yourre Your bare feet touching the bare earth is just an extension of who you are. Like we're all.
Ryan: We're all literally. Children of stars. Like. what makes up life on planet earth. is literally, scientifically.
Ryan: is Stardust. Like we are just. Children of stars. and And we have this brief fleeting moment. That we're in the form that we are taking now and get to experience it and so um Yeah, no one wishes.
Ryan: you know at the end of their days. that they had spent more time on their phone. Scrolling. Like. it's It's here. and And I get it. It makes...
Ryan: it means making sacrifices and it yeah sure it's it's a heck of a lot easier to pop in a lean cuisine in the you know in the in the microwave oven than it is what i'm doing today making a spatchcock chicken with roasted root vegetables i've got three types of potatoes that we've got going i've got two types of onions i've got garlic um and then i'll take that spatchcock chicken and whatever you don't eat i'll make that into a stock and then i'll make that into a chicken soup which will then carry us through the rest of the week last night i made two nights ago i made brisket from one of our our our
Jennifer Gulizia: Amazing.
Ryan: beef animals that we that we processed ourselves. um I just processed three pigs on the farm a few a few weeks ago. We did 75 birds, 50 meat chickens and and five turkeys.
Ryan: Thanksgiving turkey is is going to be a 33 -pound bird that I raised myself for our extended family that we're going to be doing. I've got 350 butternut squash in our basement that are curing right now.
Jennifer Gulizia: wow
Ryan: I've got about another 50 or 60 spaghetti squash that are curing. um I mean, you know we've got... 11 freezers, chest freezers, ah where we keep all of our you know frozen produce and and frozen protein.
Ryan: um You know, we do our own honey. We do our own maple syrup. we tap a thousand trees and produce ah yeah so we do 100 of our sweetener on farm 100 of our protein on farm um i've got 500 fruit trees nut trees berry bushes it was small apple harvest this year but i got a ton of apples um i've got a freezer full of black raspberries red raspberries uh strawberries uh seaberry currants um and that you know sustains us as a family.
Ryan: And we supplement it, of course. There are days when we're tired, we just order pizza like everybody, like as you'd expect.
Jennifer Gulizia: hu
Ryan: um and there are days where i do wonder like are we going to do this forever But I can tell you what, I am so grateful. that my kids. I've got to experience this.
Ryan: So great.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely.
Ryan: So grateful. you know um that they've they've had this hands in the dirt experience, whatever they end up doing. you know as adults later in life but to be able to to experience this and the wisdom that they've gained and the responsibility it's taught them and the growth that they've.
Ryan: achieved and just being able to you know, live life in in and experience the beauty of earth and not be just in a concrete jungle. and you know think life is limited to the four walls that they're in i'm so grateful that we have this opportunity to do this and and to your point um yes it makes it means making trade -offs and making sacrifices but it is not impossible and it is far more possible than i think more people um
Ryan: We think it is.
Jennifer Gulizia: I... wholeheartedly agree. And I think right now. People are going to want to know. what it means to be real. what what it what makes us human. In your book, you talk about there's three colliding forces.
Jennifer Gulizia: that we're about to experience, or we already are experiencing.
Ryan: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Can you talk to my listeners a little bit about those three forces? Because I think that ties into the AI and a lot of the fears that my industry has.
Ryan: Yeah. So. I think it's easy to point to. maybe the fear. that many people feel about where the world is headed.
Ryan: as being a singular interpretation and a singular force in AI. The reality is AI is one of what I would describe as three mega trends or macro forces that are reshaping.
Ryan: life as we know it. um on planet Earth. and the human predicament. And the first is what I would describe as an economic reckoning. And for this, if you study the work of. um ah the head fund hedge fund manager Ray Dalio, and he's written several books on this topic, most notably the book Principles of a Changing World Order, that there's something in economics known as the big cycle.
Ryan: The big cycle is basically this repeating cycle that shows up. across human history. It's been a cycle that's been true for thousands of years, where what happens is there's a dominant superpower that shows up.
Ryan: in a region or in this case, in our global ah economic system.
Jennifer Gulizia: isn
Ryan: um that um ah rises due to a set of circumstances and falls. predictably because of those same circumstances. And we've seen this play out with the British Empire, with the Dutch Empire, with the Portuguese Empire. And we're now seeing this play out with the American Empire.
Ryan: and And the problem with the big cycle is that it only happens about every 75 to 100 years, which means that we only experience it once at most. in our lifetime. So we tend to dismiss its inevitability.
Ryan: The only people who are alive today that experienced the last sort of global reset uh where the centenarians who are live and old enough to remember the Great Depression into World War II.
Ryan: And so that's a very small subset of of humanity. and And because we've lived through this this period of of peace and prosperity and and growth, we tend to think that the idea of an economic reset is is unfathomable. It's not something that we're going to experience.
Ryan: um But the reality is, if if thousands of years of human history are a guide, there is this economic reckoning that's coming. So that's force number one. That's on the horizon. The second force is an ah ecological crisis that we're in the middle of right now.
Ryan: And I think for this, studying the work of Nate Hagans is probably the... I think the most powerful way to understand what it is that we're going through. um The work of Donella Meadows, um if anybody studied her work, you'll recognize that um We are.
Ryan: in this sort of capitalist system that is predicated on infinite growth in a finite system. and that just doesn't compute. um that everything in capitalism is predicated on continuing to grow continue to expand but at some point there are limits of natural resources there are thermodynamic limits there's just not an infinite amount of stuff on planet earth to draw from and um This shows up most acutely.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Ryan: uh with respect to fossil fuel and and mineral. um inputs into what's required required to to continue growing the way things have been growing um so by most measures we are past the point of peak oil
Ryan: meaning we are dangerously close to the point in time where it takes more energy to extract a unit of oil than it then is required to um to put into it so meaning we're going from a place where we put one unit and of of energy in to get two units out the to put one and unit of energy in and we get less than one unit in return and once we do that um And this is not just like the oil that's running. you know the machine that's doing the drilling, it's the whole system behind it.
Ryan: it's It's building the factories required to build the parts that go into the machinery and everything. that goes into that. And there's a natural sort of you know idea, well, can't we just... outrun this with solar or wind or geothermal or nuclear or some combination thereof but the reality is to if you trace the inputs that go into every single one of those forms of energy it requires a finite system it requires the the 4 .2 billion years of sunlight that we've sequestered on planet earth in the form of fossil fuel that we've extracted that
Ryan: has a ah finite. amount to it and we are dangerously close to running out um we've extended that through fracking we've extended that through offshore drilling we've extended that through um less optimal forms of fossil fuel but we're kind of like at the point of if you had a milkshake when you're a kid growing up and you drink it and drink it and then at some point you're just kind of moving the straw around you're getting like the last little bits at some point the little bits are gone too There's no more foam from the whipped cream that's left in the glass.
Ryan: There's nothing left.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Ryan: um And so we're dangerously close to that point. How far away we are is up for debate, but we're definitely closer to the end than we are to the beginning. um And then you've got this third force layered on top of this, which is the existential crisis that we're experiencing with AI.
Ryan: So we've got now on top of all of this, this feeling that growth can't continue forever, that something is not right with the economy, that we just keep kicking the can down the road and we're just um you know using more and more debt, more and more credit to fund our present way of life. And now we've got AI?
Ryan: that's coming for our jobs and is going to just completely take everything away from us it's like too much to handle. and in periods of ah ah technological dynamic growth.
Ryan: and uncertainty like this, there's a natural human response that shows up. which is to return back to what we know to be true, what feels safe, what feels authentic, and what ultimately...
Ryan: feels real.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes.
Ryan: And so in the back of the Industrial Revolution, we had the Romantic movement in Europe and in the United States, the Transcendentalist movement, which is, for anybody who's who's read Walden, Henry David Thoreau, this is where Walden...
Ryan: emerges. um In response to the mechanization of the early 20th century we had the arts and crafts movement as a counter -revolutionary movement. the The globalization that took place in the middle of the 20th century led to the back to the land.
Ryan: movement as a counter response and so every sort of movement like this has had a corresponding counter movement that's showing up and what's showing up in the world right now is this return to real. This return to what we believe to be true in an age of artificial everything from the food we eat to the content we consume. What's happening right now is the shift in priority.
Ryan: where what the world is not. craving is is not more. we don't want the bigger house with the 10 000 square foot mansion we don't want more stuff like the previous generation wanted to accumulate we don't want more of that
Jennifer Gulizia: see
Ryan: Instead, what we want is what's real. That's the craving that's showing up in the world. It's showing up with young people. It's showing up with old people and everyone in between. And so what it means is... And this is the thesis of the book. is that there's a double craving.
Ryan: That's emerging which is what your heart what your body and what your spirit are starving for right now is the same thing that your customers are starving for.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes.
Ryan: what your market is starving for and so what that means is this isn't just some philosophical pipe dream to live this return to real life. What it means is that you can actually create something that satisfies economic demand, that satisfies what the world is craving, and you can actually deliver that and build a financially viable... business that allows you to live the life that you actually want to lead.
Jennifer Gulizia: Thank you for that explanation.
Ryan: So. That's That's the big, it's a lot I know to take in, but hopefully that gives ah a bit of a summarization of the three colliding forces and how it leads to what I believe is a tremendous opportunity right now at our doorstep.
Jennifer Gulizia: That's exactly how I took it. I read your book and I go, look at this opportunity that exists for farmers right now. how would you suggest that flower farmers.
Jennifer Gulizia: Use this opportunity. for good right now.
Ryan: Well, look, the world is absolutely craving. more of this. The question is, how do we connect to people where they're currently at. And I think that is like the great dilemma. um You know, I am ah a writer and I want to spend all day writing books.
Ryan: um anything that takes me yeah Anything that takes me away from that feels like it is pulling me away from what I was put on this.
Jennifer Gulizia: That's my daughter.
Ryan: earth to do and if if flower farming as an example is where you find your passion and your love and how you want to pursue life it can feel like anything that's not doing that is sort of pulling you away from the work, so to speak.
Ryan: I think we have to. come to terms with the fact that there's certain work that we need to do in order to introduce our real work to the world um you know so what does that mean does it mean starting a podcast does it mean you know, finding a way to put a portion of your life on social media and a portion of your work on social media to to be discovered um is it is it speaking is it writing a book is it well how are you
Ryan: connecting the work that you're doing on your farm to the world and in return to real the way i describe it as scale the distribution not the source meaning the work that you're doing.
Ryan: Make that the center of your life, the center of your... vocation and maybe even your avocation um and find a way to get that work into more people's hands by scaling the the distribution. um And I think that's going to be different for different businesses, for different people. um you know for me it's i write a weekly email publication that's called the digital contrarian and i write it
Ryan: My head, my heart, not AI, no team of writers. I personally pen every single issue myself. um Some of these issues are 2 ,000 to 4 ,000 words. Some of them are deeply researched. and um uh very revealing about the mistakes that i'm making in business and life but i insist on keeping that something that I create myself.
Ryan: But I scaled the distribution. um by putting in the form of this email newsletter that the world can see the work. So if you're a flower farmer, the challenge that I'd put. you know to anyone listening to this or watching this right now would be how are you sharing your work with.
Ryan: the world. How are you putting it? um uh into the hands of people that will say, I want more of this. I want more of what it is that you're creating in my life. um and and and meeting them where they're at. finding them on the channels that they're spending time on right now even if that means that they're sucked into the digital vortex, that they're um you know in places that you might not want to be spending a ton of time.
Ryan: in your own life which is which is certainly how i feel about many of these digital channels
Jennifer Gulizia: It can be so hard. I know the last thing I want to do is get on social media. But I also know that my voice can't get out there and my message can't get out there if I don't show up on that. I, a while back ago, recorded a podcast episode whether flower farmers should use AI or not. And I... talked about the pros and cons. Do you see... a place where farmers can ethically use AI in their business.
Ryan: Yeah, I think, you know for me, I i don't. want to imply that I am the moral arbiter of what is right and wrong. When I think about AI, what what I do think I can offer something for consideration is around what pragmatically makes sense.
Ryan: And what I can tell you right now is that they're... is A bit of an AI witch hunt. that's going on. and And what I mean by that is there is this sense that because there's so much AI that's being used to produce. content.
Ryan: in the world um that there are some who have come to believe that anything that they see is AI. and there are these witch hunt accusations oh that's not a real picture of ah a uh dahlia that you planted on your farm. That's just an AI image.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Ryan: And then you've got to go to pain stanking. lengths. to prove, no, no, no, this is really our farm. this is is I'm a real human being. This is really me. This is this is really it. and And so we can get ahead of that.
Ryan: by building in public, by thinking in public, by showing our work in public, by by making it a point to take people on the journey. and showing the dirt underneath your finger or fingernails to show planting the garlic cloves on a cold November fall day. So that way in the spring, when the garlic is... is cranking and you're cutting garlic scapes and you're like showing a big basket of garlic scapes ah for the early harvest.
Ryan: they They saw the whole journey. and and and the equivalent of that for you.
Jennifer Gulizia: Totally.
Ryan: in your business and in your life. you know So where can we use AI? I believe that we should be thinking about using AI in the parts of our business that don't touch our customers.
Ryan: So. um you know, the back the back office work in your business, um you know, to to help build the website. that. you know manages the inventory on your um you know the products that you sort that you sell on farm but not Don't AI.
Ryan: The videos... showcasing you. on your farm doing the work. like That's got to stay real. like That's got to be the real thing.
Jennifer Gulizia: Totally.
Ryan: That's the last thing that you ever want to. Uh, use AI to create or produce. So I think that is like a guiding principle that I've used is do not AI -ify.
Ryan: the parts of your business that. Meet your customer. Those are the parts that need to remain human. Those are the places that people can feel the difference between something that's created.
Ryan: with real love. and and and and a real human versus the parts that have just been passed on to a machine to... to to get it out into the world.
Jennifer Gulizia: I love that advice. Thank you for sharing that, Ryan. I'm curious. Personally, do you grow any flowers on your farm?
Ryan: So we do. um We are, I mean, we're on. uh 150 acres and we have a we have meadows filled with wild flowers. um We've done a little bit of cultivated work. We've got some bulbs that we plant. um But like in the early spring, we've got the spring crocuses. We've got a bit that we plant.
Ryan: in our sort of pollinator garden around the periphery of our production garden. um But we've got a lot of perennials. i mean like we have more calendula than I know what to do with.
Ryan: uh right now. I mean, it just, it it it does really, really well in our climate. So we do a bit with flowers. I do some marigolds. I mean, everything that we produce ultimately flowers. I mean, we do lots of green.
Jennifer Gulizia: Sure.
Ryan: So like the arugula flowers. even though it's not. you know flower um on our in in our in our sort of wild pasture i mean we've got everything from black eyed susans to uh joe pie to um the purple aster the yellow goldenrod um
Jennifer Gulizia: Would you talk about those in your book?
Ryan: you know I talk about those in the book, yeah, um which have had a big, you know, sort of impact on on my thing. i won't I won't spoil the story, but let's just say there was a massive... massive business insight that came from just...
Ryan: Observing. the yellow goldenrod and purple aster um on the farm. you know So I could go. you know on and on um We have 48 beehives. And so we are just so blessed to have.
Ryan: the pollination not to mention the bumblebees and you know we have a monarch migration that comes through with uh with all the milkweed in our pastures that we try to keep undisturbed to to support that so we operate in a permaculture paradigm that is very much integrated systems in terms of what it is that that we do um we're not selling flowers on our farm so we don't have a need for like row farming ah flowers but
Ryan: are you know Yeah, we've got flowers pretty much in every corner of what it is that we're. we're doing here, what we're up to.
Jennifer Gulizia: Well, I might have to get you and your wife hooked on some dahlias here next year.
Ryan: All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm open to it. Okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: well Ryan this has been such a fun conversation and I think so insightful I think that a lot of people are living in fear right now And. I've chosen instead of the fear to feel excited about the future and very hopeful. especially I feel like what we're doing as farmers.
Jennifer Gulizia: matters more maybe now than it ever has before. And one of the things that I love so much about flowers is. They're such a perfect example of how fleeting life is. You talk about these moments of realizing your boys are growing up quickly.
Jennifer Gulizia: My daughter turns 12 this week. And I'm like, if I don't slow down and be present. I'm going to miss her growing up and I'm also going to miss that flower blooming. And I think that's. One of the really special things for us flower farmers is that we literally get to show people. what real looks like.
Ryan: yeah I agree 100%. um i'm I'm really happy that you're doing the work that you're doing. And yeah, I'm tearing up because I've got to. a 12 year old boy. and uh you know he was uh I wrote a newsletter issue.
Ryan: Um, where he was in my arm. at a live event that I hosted years back. And i just I remember that like it was yesterday. I remember putting him on stage. And it's so fateful, like how some of these moments, like you don't expect them in the moment to mean anything where he was, I put a microphone in his hand.
Ryan: I said, you know, what's your name? He said, Bradley.
Jennifer Gulizia: off
Ryan: And it was, what's your favorite food? and He was like, hmm. Beans. And it just like everyone burst out laughing.
Jennifer Gulizia: I love it.
Ryan: It was like beans. I've never heard you talk about beans ever. um And here we are fast forward. ah almost 10 years later. And he's harvesting beans on our farm.
Ryan: you know we've got dried beans we've got green beans we've got wax beans we've got You know, it's just like I never would have thought at that moment that that would have happened.
Jennifer Gulizia: amazing
Ryan: But it is a reminder that. um Gosh it goes by fast. It goes.
Jennifer Gulizia: So fast.
Ryan: So fast and everyone says it and you have these moments like where you kind of realize it and then Your kids do stuff that annoy you and that frustrate you and that tire you and that exhaust you. And you're like, come on, come on, come on. And then it's like.
Ryan: You just got to take that moment and be like, there's a time in my life. That I would give everything.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes. Oh, now you're going to make me cry thinking about that.
Ryan: Just to have. Yeah. Like. Five minutes.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes.
Ryan: of that. And I think farming. um is the ultimate reminder of that. that um It all goes by so fast. you know you get more tomatoes than you can handle in like a two -week stretch but then it's gone And. um Gosh, it goes by fast. And so I'm really grateful.
Ryan: yeah, you know, for this season of life, I'm grateful for this conversation, which is like, you know, also a great reminder because when you're in it. you know there's If you're listening to this right now and you're not in it, you're you're maybe thinking, gosh, I want more of this in my life. if you're in this business right now and you're a flower farmer yourself and you're thinking, gosh, but it is hard.
Ryan: It is, you know, and and I think I just try to remind myself that I'm just really, really grateful. for All of it.
Jennifer Gulizia: And we got to choose this hard. like you said earlier.
Ryan: Yeah. Totally.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay, Ryan, if I may, I have been asking my listeners a series of quickfire questions to wrap this up.
Ryan: Indeed.
Ryan: Sure. Yep.
Jennifer Gulizia: Um, A few of these are, they're they're pretty flower specific, but since you do grow a few flowers on your farm, you could probably answer them still.
Ryan: I'll do my best
Jennifer Gulizia: Do you have a favorite flower to grow?
Ryan: I would say. I mean, I mentioned calendula. That's what comes to mind. yeah i love ah you know it's funny enough i'll say this it's actually the dandelions The dandelions in our pasture, that's the first.
Jennifer Gulizia: oh
Ryan: there's so much nutrition in a dandelion and like when our pigs get out of their pens It's funny.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Ryan: Yep. all of this land. and they have ah and they have And they could go after anything. You know what the pigs go after? They root the dandelions. They know that there's so much nutrition.
Jennifer Gulizia: Interesting.
Ryan: And a dandelion you know is is such a beautiful plant. So for me, I think it's so underappreciated, the fact that most of the world considers a dandelion a weed. We make dandelion tea.
Ryan: Dandelion greens are the first fresh greens that we have on the farm in the spring. um And our pigs. Love the Danny line. So I'll go with the Danny line.
Jennifer Gulizia: I love that. I don't think any of my guests have ever chosen that one. So you're the first.
Ryan: Good.
Jennifer Gulizia: Why do local flowers matter to you?
Ryan: oh For me. local flowers. it's it's it's pollination and it's supporting local pollinators and if we lose our pollinators like we lose our food we lose We lose life.
Ryan: is is what it comes down to. so local flowers. matter a ton and i think if you're cultivating and not just relying on um what's what's in the wild, you have this opportunity to shape.
Ryan: local pollination and and thus local food security and food sovereignty and and even beyond that. um you know um more than just sustenance.
Ryan: more than just food. um we are attracted to flowers because they're Beautiful. and and and in some ways unnecessary. they they you know it's like why why does a beautiful flower matter like why does it matter to life
Jennifer Gulizia: Mhm.
Ryan: on earth like why does it matter why does why does a man want to give uh a woman a beautiful flower and why do we want to give flowers on you know. difficult times and a moment of loss.
Ryan: um you know, and and in honor of of someone who's passed on to the beyond. why is that i feel like it's what life why life is worth living. So for me.
Ryan: um yeah i love we have flowers all the time we've cut flowers in the house from the fields with flowers all around us i mean i'm like in this it's an embarrassment of riches where i can just look outside and there's always something in bloom outside my window.
Jennifer Gulizia: I love that I tell my husband all the time. I'm like, I feel so abundant. might be sometimes worried about the finances but then you look out in the field and you're like look at all of these flowers. Our life is so rich. like I love how you just said that.
Ryan: Indeed.
Jennifer Gulizia: What is one thing you wish more people understood? about the floral industry or the local farm industry.
Ryan: um how much it really costs. to produce something. that is not only sustainable but is of high quality. and And for me, I feel it more acutely with food because that's my domain. I'm not. an expert in flower farming, but I share this story in the book. Thanksgiving every year, the grocery stores sell.
Ryan: you know feedlot turkeys for 49 cents a pound and i'm thinking to myself I can't even pay. for the water. that goes into the turkeys at 49 cents a pound.
Jennifer Gulizia: Totally.
Ryan: In the meantime, you know I've got a neighboring farm. like We raise our own turkeys this year, but they're selling turkeys at like $9 .99 a pound. and you do the math you're like 9 .99 a pound a 30 pound turkey that's like 300 dollars But I know what goes into raising our animals from the feed to the time to the pasture to the care to just everything that goes into these animals. If you want to make a living doing that, that's the real cost.
Ryan: And so I think you just have to make a ah choice is like, are you willing to? to tip. to make the sacrifices in your life elsewhere. maybe wearing secondhand clothing. or whatever you need to do.
Ryan: in order to to purchase the quality of food that you want to not only nourish your family and nourish your own body but nourish the planet And I have to imagine the economics of flower farming are similar in that way where it's like, yeah, we can do things with.
Ryan: artificial fertilizers and we can Yeah. prop things up. But if you want to do things sustainably, um this is what it really what it really costs.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely. I was thinking about that just this week. I was planting tulip bulbs And. I was thinking that. I got my invoice that added in the tariffs and the shipping costs.
Jennifer Gulizia: I'm like, you can go to the market, the supermarket and buy tulips cheaper than I can buy a bulb. That doesn't even factor in my team's planting time and the compost and the water.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ryan: Exactly.
Jennifer Gulizia: It's... It's crazy, yes. We've got a long ways to go on educating people. Okay, my last quickfire question for you, Ryan, is what are you most grateful for that flowers have given you in your life?
Ryan: you know, it's. I mean, there's so many things I think about, you know, we'll hand pollinate our squash. flowers to have a huge squash yield and it's like the spending time you know with that we'll pop off flowers on our tomato plants so that way we're not over taxing the plant and actually try to you know over over yield um i'm you know i i spend time in the fields literally just you know i might be moving our cattle
Ryan: and i'm just out in the fields like whatever is in bloom at that moment there's just always every week there's a new uh wildflower that's in bloom and i just see the bees the honeybees and the bumblebees just you know pollinating and i just think for a moment like most of the world
Ryan: probably doesn't even know that this is happening. um But isn't. even in a place where they have a moment to breathe. and appreciate. that this is happening. and the food that lands on their plate at the restaurant that they're eating at or the Uber Eats.
Ryan: meal that they have you know sent to their home um it in many ways All starts with a flower.
Jennifer Gulizia: yes
Ryan: And I think for me, being able to take a moment to appreciate that, recognize that, and and just have that part of my... daily existence in my life is what I'm so incredibly grateful for.
Jennifer Gulizia: That's beautiful. Ryan, is there anything I haven't asked you today that you want to share with my listeners?
Ryan: Oh gosh, I feel like you and I could talk for like 10 hours.
Jennifer Gulizia: Totally. I know. I'm like, oh, I don't really want to wrap this up, but I know that I need to let you go.
Ryan: Yeah. does it A million things, but I would just say I'm really grateful that I'm i'm thankful that you're. ah shining attention and shining a light. on what you're putting attention on i think the world needs it and it's one of the reasons why i was so excited for this conversation and hopefully to play a tiny little role. and and being part of it and hopefully inspire. you know Maybe somebody who's listening to this right now who thinks, oh gosh, I'd love to do that. It's easy for you to say.
Ryan: um you know uh ryan you're doing this and jennifer you're doing this but it's so much harder for me um i would say Um, You know, if not.
Ryan: If not you. then who?
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes.
Ryan: If not now, then when? And I would encourage you to um the crazy ideas that you have. about. doing the thing that you want to do.
Ryan: um Life is so short. a colleague of mine not someone that I was close to personally, but a colleague of mine. um in the tech space. I was on a flight from Texas to...
Ryan: the Bahamas. And. Private jet. This guy's making a lot of money. Um, He, his wife. two kids, their nanny, two friends, copilot, pilot.
Ryan: All. tragically died.
Jennifer Gulizia: oh I'm so sorry.
Ryan: ah a person who had everything
Jennifer Gulizia: It's... Yes.
Ryan: All the money in the world, enough money to buy a private jet flying two children under the age of five. just in a heartbeat
Ryan: it's just gone Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Life is so fragile.
Ryan: it's it's it's Like. it's the petals of the flower right it's the it's it's it's so um
Jennifer Gulizia: Yas.
Ryan: It's so fragile. And so. We're here for just such a... a short precious time and all the things that we're worried about. not having enough money and. being living in a cardboard box and being homeless, you know, it's not going to happen. um You know, what are people going to think in your life? well They're going to kind of think what but they want. Most people are going to ignore it and not even care. um All the things that we fear.
Ryan: Like I saw this great, this great. piece that just reminded me that all of these fears that we have, it's right here. Death. We're all gonna die. bankruptcy.
Ryan: You can make it all back. Shame, everyone will forget you in a week. rejection, it happens to everybody. Failure. It's part of the path. Judgment? They're going to judge anyway.
Ryan: Loving people. Not all are meant to stay. Making mistakes. You'll survive them. taking risks. risks Regret hurts more. Live every day like it's your last.
Ryan: Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
Jennifer Gulizia: o That's beautiful. Wow, Ryan. I'm sad to end this conversation with you. Where can our listeners stay connected with you?
Ryan: I would say the best place would be to... go to returntorealbook .com. that's where the book is. um You can check out chapter one for free. If you'd like, you can grab a copy of the book. And it's also the best place if you'd like to follow along with that weekly newsletter that I mentioned, The Digital Contrarian, where I write about what we're doing on the farm, what we're learning, how it's applying to business and all the lessons learned along the way. um That is returntorealbook .com.
Jennifer Gulizia: amazing ryan will you will include links to that in your social media in today's show notes. You guys, I promise you, if you grab a copy of this book, it's going to change your life. It's going to change your perspective.
Jennifer Gulizia: Ryan. It was such an honor to have you on today. Thank you for being a guest on the podcast.
Ryan: It's been an honor. Thank you so much.
Jennifer Gulizia: I hope to stay in touch thank you.
