Transcript
Jennifer Gulizia: Welcome back. to the Backyard Bouquet podcast. Today's guest is one of the most respected voices in the global flower industry, and I've been looking forward to this conversation
Jennifer Gulizia: My guest's name is Arnold Wittkamp. And in... 2019 he founded Thursd which has grown into the global online magazine for the floral and plant industry.
Jennifer Gulizia: It is the place where growers, breeders, Florists and flower lovers alike from every corner of the business come to find one another. He built it around a line that still runs through everything they do.
Jennifer Gulizia: Thursday is good for you. since then he has gone further. Thursd Shop connects florists directly to vetted growers in Kenya, Ecuador, Colombia, Costa Rica,
Jennifer Gulizia: Ethiopia. and the Netherlands, which in a business built around the Dutch auction is no small thing. He hosts his own podcast. more than 60 episodes about how people really feel about flowers and what the industry ought to do about it.
Jennifer Gulizia: And now you will find him up. on the floor at the industry's biggest gatherings asking the questions the rest of us are wondering about.
Jennifer Gulizia: But that's not why I asked Arnold here today. I asked him here because as we were exchanging emails this summer, he said one sentence to me that I've not been able to stop thinking about.
Jennifer Gulizia: And that is, he said that flowers are not a luxury product. They are the social infrastructure and that our industry keeps apologizing for existing instead of saying it out loud. So that's what we're going to talk about today.
Jennifer Gulizia: Arnold is joining me from the Netherlands. And I'm so excited for this conversation. So Arnold, welcome to the Backyard Bouquet podcast. Thanks for being here today.
Arnold Wittkamp: wow Great introduction, Jennifer. Thank you so much for having me. I'm i'm thrilled to... have this conversation will with you.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yes, it's great. After so many emails back and forth, it's great to get to see your face. So if you're listening in, you can also watch on YouTube. And you can actually see us having this conversation. So Arnold.
Jennifer Gulizia: I know I gave you an introduction, but tell our listeners in your own words who you are and how you got your start with flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: Wow. it's I don't think it will all fit in one hour then. i I... i found out already when i was young that i was drawn to plants so i come from um an apartment building in amsterdam and my father was always busy with the um pelagoniums on the balcony and the fuchsias.
Arnold Wittkamp: And I remember when I was 12, I... drove on my bike to a garden center and bought my first plant which was a medanilla magnifica It's a tropical yellow blend with huge pink flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: And. yeah without knowing i had this um I had this feeling for plants. They were just like. a wonder to me. So I love looking at them. and I started to work with plants when I was 15 on the floating flower market in Amsterdam.
Arnold Wittkamp: I did university in between, I studied economics, and then I opened a flower shop.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay.
Arnold Wittkamp: And that's that's how things... evolved I worked for a plant wholesaler. I had my own export company and then i specialized a bit more in marketing i met a french florist who was looking for scented garden roses That's how I came into the import of David Austin roses from Alexandra Farms from Rosa Prima.
Arnold Wittkamp: from farms in Cambusie. and marketing them. uh was very difficult because the trade didn't really like the scented flowers and the david austin roses because they were very fragile, they had some botrytis.
Arnold Wittkamp: short face life um and then we started to do marketing directly to the florist and basically That's where the idea of thirst was born. So in and a nutshell, 35 years, that's it.
Jennifer Gulizia: Amazing. Okay. So through your marketing in the floral industry. You saw this need. to create an online media presence.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah, so what what you see a lot is when Growers want to get out of the commodity industry.
Jennifer Gulizia: Uh huh.
Arnold Wittkamp: They have to do some marketing. So why do you buy from this farm? Is it quality? Is it the farm story? Is it the sustainability story? and that story gets lost.
Arnold Wittkamp: um when you what your targets floral designers especially in Europe.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Arnold Wittkamp: where the flower trades. is always is always indirect there are always many middlemen in between And somehow it doesn't work to get the information through the end buyer, which is.
Arnold Wittkamp: Thanks for watching. a designer so i don't focus so much on mass market but much more on. the wholesale florist and in Europe most of them have very little knowledge of where the flowers are.
Arnold Wittkamp: coming from especially on farm level.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely. It's amazing how many people don't know where their flowers come from.
Arnold Wittkamp: um ah I remember when I had my own flower shop, I didn't care also. I just wanted to have nice. a flowers of and good The I always bought...
Arnold Wittkamp: the high -end red roses from with a sleeve that had beautiful ego on it I didn't even know that the last name of the grower was.
Arnold Wittkamp: The eagle, I didn't know.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh, no way.
Arnold Wittkamp: So you don't know. if You just look at ah your product and it makes sense. But times I think times have changed. I think much more. um customers or flower shop They demand that. a little bit of transparency i think uh with all the sustainability talk a lot of a lot of lawyers get questions about how is how it's produced, where it's coming from. Are they good flowers or bad?
Jennifer Gulizia: absolutely I'm sure you see all of that um it's such a It's such an interesting time. I was just this weekend thinking about how... a customer well they're not a customer but someone stopped me as I was driving my van full of flowers And they asked where our flowers are available. And I said at our farm.
Jennifer Gulizia: and our farm is 10 minutes outside of town. And they said, oh, well, I would never drive that far.
Arnold Wittkamp: Hmm.
Jennifer Gulizia: to buy flowers. And I thought, okay. And at first I kind of felt down. And then I was driving to the farm and my CSA customers came to pick up their flowers. and It was their first week on the farm and they're looking at these flowers and walking through the field and saying, this is so cool. Like, I can't believe these are all grown right here. And it was kind of like.
Jennifer Gulizia: This is why it's so important that people know where things come from, because they've got a deeper connection. with the grower. And then it made me think about kiss the grounds messaging on the vegetable food side. And I forget the exact statistic, but it's somewhere around like eight only 8 % of Americans.
Jennifer Gulizia: have even had a conversation with a farmer. in the last year.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: And so I think we've got so far to go with that awareness. And I know you're really working to do that. through thirst by bringing in different voices.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Arnold Wittkamp: yeah yeah so on on the one hand we do flower and plant promotion for growers and breeders who want to go out of the commodity trade.
Jennifer Gulizia: Aha.
Arnold Wittkamp: and on the other part we do flower and plant promotion in general so we work for and the Kenya Flower Council, which is the organization that is for the Kenyan young growers, we work for the Ethiopian.
Arnold Wittkamp: producers organization. We do a lot of things for Azoco Flores. um for... sustainer bloom in the States, that flower feeling.
Arnold Wittkamp: we work for fair trade so we also do a lot of good, I i think. and um That's why we say thirst is good for you. And that's a very broad you also.
Jennifer Gulizia: Of course. And you're speaking to a large audience, so I'm sure that's hard at times. You said when you had your flowers shop. that At first, you didn't even think about where your flowers came from. You have 30 something years in the industry now.
Jennifer Gulizia: Was there a moment where flowers stopped being just a product and became something more to you?
Arnold Wittkamp: um That I got aware from it. Yes and so i always had Looking back, I always had that connection. I think.
Jennifer Gulizia: Aha.
Arnold Wittkamp: i think everybody has i think with nature and with
Jennifer Gulizia: Sure.
Arnold Wittkamp: especially flowers, which are Somebody said it in my podcast. flowers are the highest expression of nature. and that always stick, that always stick ah to me so um I also worked for a high -end flower shop in the city center.
Arnold Wittkamp: of amsterdam and the owner was already then i think it was 68 or 70 years old it was the oldest shop in Amsterdam, it was founded in 18... 80 something
Jennifer Gulizia: Wow.
Arnold Wittkamp: And he... he he was talking to the the flowers in his mind. So he was explaining that a flower is being cut in a greenhouse or in the field and there it's calm and it's relaxed. so everything is organized in know a way so that
Arnold Wittkamp: the plant produces the most beautiful product and then it's being cut chopped it's putting in a bucket in a fridge it's being transported it goes to wholesalers to do this this then he picks it up at the wholesaler he puts it in his truck he drives it to a shop.
Arnold Wittkamp: And there, there's peace again. There's classical music playing. and when he takes the flowers out of the ya buckets and he put them on the ya table he opens the your sleeve and he says It's okay. I'm gonna make you shine.
Jennifer Gulizia: Aww.
Arnold Wittkamp: And he doesn't say it out loud, but he is like. energetically conveying that message and then every time And he told me once, but it always... stick to me. I got your voice.
Arnold Wittkamp: and he cut it and he put it in the yeah fresh water and he always did something like It's okay. And. um And I think... good florists.
Arnold Wittkamp: day Do that. I think. somehow intuitively intuitively
Jennifer Gulizia: uh -huh
Arnold Wittkamp: um that you know that the flower has lost its purpose, it won't it won't produce fruit. So... what the flower does in that way is to make somebody happy or to give comfort in a sad moment or um so this this whole industry we are in is so filled with energy.
Arnold Wittkamp: and positivity and
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely.
Arnold Wittkamp: um something we I think we talk way too little of. So I said...
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely.
Arnold Wittkamp: a long answer to a short question
Jennifer Gulizia: no I love that well that leads me into what I said in the intro is how you wrote about flowers. ah not being a luxury product. And you said that they are social infrastructure.
Jennifer Gulizia: can you help us Break that down. What does that mean to you?
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah, so um For me, at first flowers are good for you so they bring joy you recover more quickly when you're sick. it's good for your It's good for your nervous system when you're surrounded by flowers and your plants, you feel better. so that's always number one.
Arnold Wittkamp: but many people forget that especially in the global south um Many people... Amen. They have their life depending on the flower industry.
Arnold Wittkamp: And in Kenya... I've been a lot in... Ethiopia, but also in Colombia and Ecuador. millions of people. um are improving their livelihoods because of the flower industry so um It's not just the flower. it's the whole industry behind it's um A lot of women work at the farms.
Arnold Wittkamp: Um... and and the women are free because they can make some money and in the rural areas um And. they a little how to say economy start there is a farm People earn a bit of money.
Arnold Wittkamp: they want to come with the bike there's a little bike shop there's a bakery there's a vegetable yeah shop so all these rural areas are benefiting of the flower industry.
Arnold Wittkamp: And that's why for me it's so hard when you hear people say, oh, we shouldn't. fly in flowers or important flowers are bad or And there's so much more to it.
Jennifer Gulizia: it it's a very complex system and i guess it's a lot like I mean, when you talk about roads being an infrastructure, I don't know about an... amsterdam But in the U .S., I feel like. the infrastructure. needs some serious work here in our schools. I also think of like the infrastructure of schools.
Jennifer Gulizia: Schools in the US need some serious help. My daughter goes back to school this week that we're recording. um Do you think? I know you say that flowers are important to be imported.
Jennifer Gulizia: Do you think the infrastructure? could maybe use some help.
Arnold Wittkamp: a Wow. i think um I think we live in... a global in a global economy. And I think... um The customer is always right.
Arnold Wittkamp: So I'm confident there are customers who want to buy. organic flowers. local your flowers and that market is ah growing exponentially everywhere.
Jennifer Gulizia: Mm hmm.
Arnold Wittkamp: in the rich countries.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Arnold Wittkamp: That's so am into more uh medium countries it's more mass market oriented And then. and There is no local flower. production who can fulfill that large of a get the men so so then you have to think okay where can we best produce flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: and Do we do it in the Netherlands? or in the North. where you need a like big heated greenhouse and you need lightning and you need a lot of energy Or do you go someplace where the sun is always shining?
Jennifer Gulizia: Mm hmm.
Arnold Wittkamp: and the energy is basically free. and you can uplift the local you can uplift the local economies. so it's not a local good, an export bad or vice versa for Me, it's more about telling stories.
Arnold Wittkamp: and then i think each flower can find its the customer but then you need the story to be told. So. i am I buy my. vegetables at a small local ya farm close a close by Why? because I know his story.
Arnold Wittkamp: He sells things I cannot buy somewhere else. I know how he... produces it and I can afford it.
Jennifer Gulizia: right
Jennifer Gulizia: Growing... I... I don't know about... For you, because I know you have lots lots of larger farms, but in the U .S., we don't have the scale of farms. So when we talk about our local farmers.
Jennifer Gulizia: having 20 % of the market and we want to grow that. 80 % of the market, we can't just. create overnight and I don't think we can ever. be the entire market for the US. And maybe that's a bold thing to say, but...
Jennifer Gulizia: I think we always will have to rely on exports also because we can only produce. So much. in the U .S.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah, and also... And the question could be, of course, of course the us is uh there's lots more space than there is here in Europe. And so there are...
Jennifer Gulizia: Sure.
Arnold Wittkamp: of course areas where it's very difficult to source your flowers from a local yeah from a local a local farm. And. So I'm... a quite a positive on do both of it so i think important.
Arnold Wittkamp: flowers are good because we really help. um lifting up these economies. I believe in capitalism. i'm I'm. a true capitalist so i think if you leave the market free it will find its way and and the more you intervene the more your problems you I create.
Arnold Wittkamp: um So I think there's... really room for the both of it. and And you see it happening here too. and There are many more. smaller local farms.
Arnold Wittkamp: coming. but they serve as specific. The target. a group And not everybody.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right. Absolutely not everyone can afford the locally grown product. Or some people don't want it. I think. Gosh what am I trying to say here? It's such a fine complex.
Jennifer Gulizia: situation i mean just like everything there's not an easy Um. Right. right way to do it. And I think that's why it's so hard. And it's so interesting that you call it.
Jennifer Gulizia: social infrastructure. Because it's so easy as a local farmer to always be promoting. This beauty. that we can sell. But you're saying it goes beyond the beauty. It's an infrastructure that the floral industry is creating.
Arnold Wittkamp: the flower industry is super complex. So I think it's much more complex than uh the your fruits and vegetables.
Arnold Wittkamp: So we have so many different varieties. We have so many different. small yeah farmers and big farmers.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Arnold Wittkamp: and that bringing that together. and seeing it as a like whole structure and And once you do... it's very difficult to hear all the yeah critics about a certain about a a certain aspect of it and what you see a lot here is that people who think they produce the best way.
Arnold Wittkamp: date. very often not just say, well, We are good. But they very often say. They are bad and we are good. And that's for me where things go a bit.
Arnold Wittkamp: I get... um I get... and drive to yeah defend the other side no matter which side it is because It all works.
Arnold Wittkamp: I think. ah to yeah bring people closer. to nature in the end. And many people in the city have completely lost any sense of connection with.
Arnold Wittkamp: nature And I think. putting a bouquet of flowers inside your house. and and seeing it die. um I think that's that's super important that people...
Arnold Wittkamp: feel that. And that's why for me it's very hard to to hear all the stories about pesticides, about... and you should not buy imported flowers or you shouldn't buy flowers at all here uh in europe where a bit more insane and in that sense, then I think in the US, but It's coming there too. people
Arnold Wittkamp: They hear stories about that their flowers are not sustainable and you shouldn't buy it because of CO2 or pesticides. And I think... um being aware of ah the energetic power of flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: is is something we I think took for granted.
Jennifer Gulizia: who
Arnold Wittkamp: and For me it's very strange that you even have to... speak about this it's just A no -brainer, but... many people here in the cities they have completely lost that connection.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely. I mean, it's that's where it's like it's not a black and white issue. There's so many gray. parts of the infrastructure of the whole flower industry. I mean, I couldn't agree more that you look at teens these days in the US and what are they doing there? head down looking at their phone.
Jennifer Gulizia: Or their earbuds are in their ears and you can barely have a conversation with someone without them glancing at their phone. I mean, if you. your next conversation if you look at someone in person how many times do they look at their phone during a conversation.
Jennifer Gulizia: And like you said, flowers. ah Just having to experience that, like when, help me understand, break down, why is it so important for someone to see those flowers die on the table?
Arnold Wittkamp: Well. um
Arnold Wittkamp: I think Neil deGrasse Tyson said it very well in a clip. and when you look for it on your TikTok. Alright. on any other social channel he said Everything that dies has meaning.
Arnold Wittkamp: So. Suppose you are... going to a date. And you bring. a flower. and she opens the door and he said hey I brought you some plastic.
Arnold Wittkamp: flowers. They will last forever.
Arnold Wittkamp: It's very different. then when you give a... bunch of flowers that wilt. and you cut back the stems after a few days and you try to keep them You try to keep them alive and then they wilt away and then they die.
Arnold Wittkamp: And then that moment is gone.
Arnold Wittkamp: And. For me... um I think that says it all. so um The flower is being used in every culture. with birds. with death.
Arnold Wittkamp: with good things and sad things. um And I think that's something. inside of all of us. And it seems like that some people have forgotten it. and I think.
Arnold Wittkamp: nowadays with all the technology and all the screens and all the AI and I think... All right. I'm so positive about the power of the flower. that i And.
Arnold Wittkamp: I think this movement of people who are critical of the flower industry um I think. it's temporary but the Their voices are very loud. I've seen it in the New York Times, in the Washington Post, when it's Valentine's ah yesterday Day. and um People are very critical about flowers and I think, wow.
Arnold Wittkamp: Why would you pick flowers? Why don't... you pick a diet coke with all the stuff in it or or chips or candy or McDonald's or whatever, everything in the supermarket is bad for you.
Jennifer Gulizia: right
Arnold Wittkamp: but not flowers. So. That's also one of the reasons why I started my... own podcast journey is to try to discover um So what is it? that we can do as an industry.
Arnold Wittkamp: that doesn't really exist because The industry is nobody. It's like a... and Yeah, it's not a thing really. It's nobody. it's We're all small. We all try to collaborate, but everybody does their own thing.
Arnold Wittkamp: but what can we do as an industry to um to promote something that doesn't really need to be promoted.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right. Well, it it speaks for itself. I mean... Um, I've got multiple thoughts running through my head here. um But I was delivering flowers the other week to a local restaurant in our town that I've serviced for the last seven years. and It's been where our family eats every meal. We went there before my daughter was born. We go there for birthdays, for anniversaries.
Jennifer Gulizia: And the chef said something to me. He said, well, you know, Jen. flowers and food are the two things that tie in all of our emotional connections. and memory.
Jennifer Gulizia: And. um when you think back to an occasion. Those are the two things that have sensory. memory for us. And I thought, how true is that? So I've got two things running through my mind. I've got that connection obviously is so real for everyone. I mean, I've had the pleasure.
Jennifer Gulizia: and I've been fortunate to travel all over the world. We went to Thailand a few years ago. And there were mass markets everywhere. and People were buying their marigolds and different offerings for their shrines that they had in front of their house, for their loved ones that they would put out every single day. um So we know that all over the world, people...
Jennifer Gulizia: Love these flowers. And I love what you're saying is that. It seems like it's more about... making sure we tell the full story. But at the same time, I think. At least.
Jennifer Gulizia: like local flower farmers, people in the sustainability industry. Perhaps what we're struggling with is... How do we tell the full story? so that people also can care about sustainability.
Jennifer Gulizia: And the fairness. of the industry because there are imports that are very sustainable that are fair that are good to their employees And then on the... local side there's farms that still spray. There's farms that maybe aren't doing what they should be doing. So on both sides, there's there's good and there's bad.
Jennifer Gulizia: How do we tell the story? I think is the root problem. so that people can make the right informed decisions. without Losing. the emotional value that flowers bring.
Arnold Wittkamp: very good question I wish I had the answer for it Um, it's no no it's it's it's it's so here
Jennifer Gulizia: Right. I know. It's more rhetorical, I think.
Arnold Wittkamp: in Europe. ah i know a lot so in France, in the UK, in Germany, in Switzerland. Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands.
Arnold Wittkamp: We really have a large group of people. five to ten percent of the population who are negative about flowers because of mainly pesticides.
Jennifer Gulizia: Wow.
Jennifer Gulizia: Mm hmm.
Arnold Wittkamp: flying delia flowers, so CO2. Um... and some concerns about the workers in the low wage countries.
Jennifer Gulizia: Of course.
Arnold Wittkamp: um But... We look at pesticides. We have never been cleaner. here in Europe. I don't know about your states, but I think it's about the same.
Arnold Wittkamp: we don't spray the Yadidi tea anymore. Yeah, you remember when they were and mosquitoes in In Miami, they just grow through. the streets with a big truck and they spray DDT everywhere.
Arnold Wittkamp: Well, they found out. that was hurting people, so we stopped doing that. so What I see here is we have never been cleaner. then ever before. There's no farmer. I know.
Arnold Wittkamp: that goes out in the morning and says, ah I'm going to spray all the insects to death. Because... Why would you? Cause money. and it's not good for the plants.
Arnold Wittkamp: And so... um And then you can talk about. flying in your flowers. how good is that or how bad is that it's also depending on what kind of plane you are using how are the flowers are produced there verses.
Arnold Wittkamp: the heated check greenhouse here so there's something to a b -set But in the end... A flower is not sustainable.
Arnold Wittkamp: So why would you why would we as an industry talk about how sustainable we are when you throw it in the bin after seven days. So...
Arnold Wittkamp: So I think. what we did. very wrong as an industry. that we talk a lot about how sustainable we are about a product that is not sustainable. in definition So it's the completely wrong a story. the flower is an amazing product.
Arnold Wittkamp: you must have in your house and in parties because It's there for you. It's important. And then there are a lot of benefits. of the flower industry socially, economically.
Arnold Wittkamp: And I think... in 99 .9 % of the cases also uh in countries outside of the US and Europe. and The flowers are safe.
Arnold Wittkamp: You don't eat them um if you work with flowers daily with imported flowers. A daily. I think you should. wear Sonia gloves. And. But it's not that people are dying from cancer in the flower industry everywhere.
Arnold Wittkamp: and um and then you can say well some people they want to have organic flowers or they want to have local flowers for many different reasons yeah so everybody is a difference from people they just want to support.
Arnold Wittkamp: the local people and like ya me, so I I go to the ya cheese, i I go to the cheese shop, I go to the bakery. the shop and things I cannot find at a small local, I buy at the supermarket.
Arnold Wittkamp: That's my choice. but And I think everybody's free to yeah choose. so I am. i'm a bit concerned that as an industry we talk a bit of about sustainability I think.
Arnold Wittkamp: I think. Just do what you can do. and then the market will and Take care of it. the big supermarket chains like the ikea's and tesco's and Walmart's They have pretty strong legislation and metrics on how they want to source the flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: and It's perfect. No. Can it be better? Yes. so let's always be better and and and and do good but for me i think the industry is doing a fantastic job and every consumer watching this i would just say well you can just buy any flower anywhere Don't worry.
Arnold Wittkamp: Too much. about.
Jennifer Gulizia: I hear you saying that I also if I'm playing devil's advocate here. You hear about things like paraquat that is sprayed on flowers. And to me, that's a huge concern. I have a family member that was recently diagnosed with Parkinson's.
Jennifer Gulizia: So...
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: I think it's important to be asking those questions.
Arnold Wittkamp: For sure. yeah
Jennifer Gulizia: so I think, how do we how do we hold that as an industry? That we need, I mean. We're not going to get rid of imported flowers imported flowers are necessary for us to supply the market
Arnold Wittkamp: Mm hmm.
Jennifer Gulizia: How do we make sure that we're, I mean, and there are there are farms, obviously. that um don't spray Paraquat that are imported in. It's not like every flower that's imported in is covered in chemicals.
Arnold Wittkamp: Hmm.
Jennifer Gulizia: Is it the story that needs to change or is it legislation that you think that needs to change?
Arnold Wittkamp: I think. Our story needs to change. So understand that 20 years ago, or maybe 30. We could. Measure 1000.
Arnold Wittkamp: off. a liquid. form. the chemicals. and we had the first tests when i had at least vulgar ago. So... um So when you didn't and measure it.
Arnold Wittkamp: the outcome off. the residue was zero. Now we can measure up to nine decimals. That is insane.
Arnold Wittkamp: how little that is. and they find residues. on everything now. If you want to find it, you can Find it. So.
Arnold Wittkamp: um because you find residues on it. Is it dangerous? And I don't think so because. It's so minimal. you mentioned Parkinson's, we had a great discussion here in the Netherlands.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. pesticide action network we have here. was saying constantly that people who are living in the surroundings of the lily um farmers.
Arnold Wittkamp: i had all Parkinson's and they were all dying. there was much more parkinson um there than anywhere else. But it was all hearsay. Then there was a study last year. that showed that there was actually less Parkinson's there.
Arnold Wittkamp: and more in the cities. then when you read studies, on how on like how parkinson And.
Arnold Wittkamp: It's there. don't don't really know what is actually causing it It can be many different things. And. I know in the past there were farmers who were spraying chemicals in the 50s and the 60s.
Arnold Wittkamp: there was a lot going on and I know the stories in your France of the farmers who were doing the grapes for the wine. They all had their Parkinson. But nowadays, I think. um so very quickly. People point a finger at the flower industry.
Arnold Wittkamp: that I think, well, show me the study. that really shows that it's caused by the flower industry and I haven't seen one of it.
Arnold Wittkamp: I'm not saying it's not true. But I didn't see any study of it. So. Why is it that people always point to the farmer when something like happens where I think, well,
Arnold Wittkamp: The farmer is always working with nature. You have your own farm, you know. what to do to produce flowers how get difficult it is and when you find the balance with nature and what you want to achieve you get Great.
Arnold Wittkamp: a produce. And. and it's not that people just a spray because they can a spray i don't I don't. I don't see that. even in Africa.
Arnold Wittkamp: and where they spray a lot more than they do here. because we don't want to import bugs. And so the your rules are also. a bit different from you. from your family.
Arnold Wittkamp: can imagine them are some insects sometimes in it.
Jennifer Gulizia: There's plenty of insects on my farm. We don't spray any chemicals.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. No, no. so um So you cannot export those flowers anywhere.
Jennifer Gulizia: Correct.
Arnold Wittkamp: If you want to export them, you have to spray. and so um that are large. producers in the states who do export and they need to spray.
Arnold Wittkamp: because we don't want to we don't want to import bugs.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely.
Arnold Wittkamp: And so, and then. then of course there are residues on it. And I think if you handle them every day. You should wear protective gear, I think and but it's much better than 10 years ago.
Arnold Wittkamp: we We have done such an amazing yeah progress. and for mass market production, you need to have mass market produce. and because otherwise the economies of scale they don't work.
Arnold Wittkamp: And I think... Everybody has the right to be able to source your flowers, even for the people who don't have so much money. And I think if if we... If we let the market go, there is room for everybody.
Jennifer Gulizia: Sure. I think that's why the local flower movement is happening and growing because People are finding that they can supply their neighbors with flowers in their backyard. They don't have to have. acres upon acres. I mean,
Jennifer Gulizia: our family's been so conscious this year about how do we support our local farmers for fruits and vegetables and
Arnold Wittkamp: Mm -hmm.
Jennifer Gulizia: We're growing our own garden this year. And I went to the grocery store the other day and I literally bought Coffee. Which is... brewed here in town or roasted here in town, but we buy it through the grocery store.
Arnold Wittkamp: mm -hmm
Jennifer Gulizia: And I bought ice cream and I bought some. Snacks for my daughter to take back to school and the guy was like you're not getting very much But he goes, you don't really need much else at the grocery store, do you? And he was kind of joking. And I started thinking, I'm like.
Jennifer Gulizia: No, I don't really need much else at the grocery store because I can buy everything else locally.
Arnold Wittkamp: Good.
Jennifer Gulizia: We're vegetarian or pescatarian in my family. So we eat fish. um We buy our fish at the farmer's market and we buy. whatever vegetables and fruits we can't grow from the farmer's market or from our local farm stands.
Jennifer Gulizia: And I think that's why. In some areas, I know you've said that's not sustainable or practical. in all countries right now. But I think most of my listeners are in the U .S.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah, for sure.
Jennifer Gulizia: um So that.
Arnold Wittkamp: yeah
Jennifer Gulizia: they they They, I think, resonate more with the local movement.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah, well...
Jennifer Gulizia: We obviously have a very complex industry. um And you and I aren't going to solve these problems today. So I'd love to kind of shift the focus to knowing what gives you the most hope. for where the flower industry.
Jennifer Gulizia: is headed today
Arnold Wittkamp: Well, then I have to go back to... the Global South. so i've been
Jennifer Gulizia: Sure.
Arnold Wittkamp: a traveling tool. those countries forum. I think 25 years. and when you see the where you see the progress people move through.
Arnold Wittkamp: um I remember the first time I came in Kenya. the workers at the farm they had this Straw House.
Arnold Wittkamp: the floor was the ground. And there was a hole in the yeah roof and the whole interior. was blackened because of the fire. day. cook their food on in the middle.
Arnold Wittkamp: They had a small closet. And they changed that. clothes and they came out spotless for a party in a suit. And then.
Arnold Wittkamp: 10 years. later the kids. uh they didn't have to search for wood for the fire anymore so they could go to school which was supplied by the farm.
Arnold Wittkamp: and the houses were of concrete. They had a gas stove. They had drinking water. and their kids. had the opportunity to become the next ah Jeff Bezos if they wanted to.
Arnold Wittkamp: So the opportunity for people getting them out of. insanely poverty what we you and I cannot imagine.
Arnold Wittkamp: it's something I think the flower industry thus and still. uh did and still does for many people. around the world and uh if you go to asia it's the same if you go to india now yeah china is evolving like crazy And I think...
Arnold Wittkamp: The only... thing to solve. All the problems in the world is to make everybody rich. Everybody. at a certain level so that everybody can start to worry.
Arnold Wittkamp: about the environment and about sustainability Because to be honest, what we do here in the West, um and when you travel a lot It's like a drop.
Arnold Wittkamp: on I. Very hot plate. it doesn't make any sense we we really i think in my opinion we really have to make sure that every country gets a chance to Become rich like we.
Arnold Wittkamp: And then then we can take care of the planet. And that's not the flower industry which is going to do that alone. But that's where I see it. And. yeah well that's where i really see that the power of the flower is and beyond what it does to your customers
Jennifer Gulizia: Sure.
Arnold Wittkamp: and people who... visit a flower shop or buy a bunch in the supermarket so um Yeah, that that that is where I am hoping for that we...
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. in the west we kind of see that as long as there is this inequality. this profound inequality. Amen.
Arnold Wittkamp: we are not solving anything because People in Kenya, they don't worry about sustainability Wow. they do so they forbid plastic bags and now
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Arnold Wittkamp: In 10 years, the country is almost plastic free but The first time I came there, there was microplastics everywhere.
Jennifer Gulizia: Wow.
Arnold Wittkamp: like everywhere. And so it's not that they don't care about sustainability, but if you have to fight for your life and if you... have to walk five hours a day to get drinking water
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Arnold Wittkamp: You cannot send your kids to school. and so and I've seen the progress there. So that that is my hope.
Jennifer Gulizia: I was in Kenya in 2002. I'd love to go back and see what it's like today. i remember i I'll never forget driving through the slums of Nairobi.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: End. visiting a village in Amboseli. So, but i I remember flowers there too, at the hotels we stayed at, there were flowers and you're right.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: their their version of sustainability. is not the same As someone who's privileged like me. living in Hood River, Oregon on the Fruit Loop. So it's a different, different life.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. yeah
Jennifer Gulizia: um I appreciate your perspective on all of this There's a book that I read. um Right out of college, I was wanting to go into soccer sports marketing. That's what I did in college. And there's a book called How Soccer Explains Globalization. Have you heard of that book?
Arnold Wittkamp: No. No, I didn't
Jennifer Gulizia: um This is like 20 something years ago. I don't even know what happened to my copy of it, but I feel like. Maybe someone like you who has the media company needs to write a book on how flowers explode.
Jennifer Gulizia: explain globalization because it sounds so much. I mean it's just so fascinating. like the soccer industry, when you understand. how it has helped. um bring up societies and countries out of poverty.
Jennifer Gulizia: and it sounds like there's that opportunity and flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. yeah
Jennifer Gulizia: And I think it's. probably eyeopening for some of my listeners too, because, because we have first world problems that we're dealing with. I mean, my problems are what color. clothes are my daughter going to wear to school tomorrow? I'm not thinking about, am I going to have clean drinking water?
Jennifer Gulizia: for my child tomorrow. So our problems that we're trying to solve are very different. And I appreciate that you're recognizing and bringing that up.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: um So thank you for that. I'm curious. As you talk about the future, what is the role you want Thurs to play? in this future of the floral economy.
Arnold Wittkamp: Wow. my dream. for thirst is to become a kind of... global platform where people can choose where the flowers are coming from.
Arnold Wittkamp: And so it's about choice. um So. um We started Thirst as a kind of content engine.
Arnold Wittkamp: to build some how to say authority online and build a A brand. Seek the best farms.
Arnold Wittkamp: war. a front running also on sustainability topics but also on yeah quality Worker welfare. and to yeah Get them as customer.
Arnold Wittkamp: i promote them with always the idea that we're going to open up. a kind of direct trades. And. fully transparent where We are not.
Arnold Wittkamp: the owner of the product anymore. And so in the States that I think. And after the financial yeah crisis, the market opened up. and many people.
Arnold Wittkamp: could go direct also to farms in Colombia. And so the... intermediates they became a bit less powerful but in Europe the system is very different where everything is being consolidated.
Arnold Wittkamp: A lot of flowers go to Holland first. Um, And why is that? yeah and um i see farms who to such an amazing thing.
Arnold Wittkamp: But in a system... they're a product is is according to a certain scope And it gets five stars out of five. And the same as the farm next door, who does completely different things. Sustainability, also good things, but not.
Arnold Wittkamp: as good as the other one they also have effort. a five -star scope they come together in a kind of uh a kind of webshop of everything And then it's a race to the bottom.
Arnold Wittkamp: And then everything becomes a commodity. And then. A price is most important. And I don't know. any florist. who is I'm worried if it's like 88 cents. for. 92 cents.
Arnold Wittkamp: or 78. And so. All the florists I know, they look at a... a product and they think can I sell it? with.
Jennifer Gulizia: mm -hmm
Arnold Wittkamp: profit or Can I use it to make something beautiful? And. and in mass market buying it goes about 0 .1 cent and And I think...
Arnold Wittkamp: that is what i want to change with thirst so to and build a bridge for a growers who excel. And. and offer them you have basically customers um So that's that's my. vision for the third shop which is not open yet we are still building we are still laying a foundation that everybody feels happy it's it's also going to be um
Arnold Wittkamp: partially owned by many different the growers and then getting all kind of technicalities.
Jennifer Gulizia: Sure.
Arnold Wittkamp: But I... I. really build thirst from the idea of the producer. and the end buyer. And that's the floral your designer in a small village in the mountains of France or.
Arnold Wittkamp: a commercial shop owner who has got five shops or maybe a complete Floralia chain. because in my opinion the customer deserves to know where something is coming from so he can make a conscience choice.
Arnold Wittkamp: And I think that's where you in also, I think.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yeah.
Arnold Wittkamp: Many people come to you just because you've got... beautiful your flowers but there is a group who It comes to you very consciously.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely. I mean, my... Well, it's interesting this year on our CSA, I feel so blessed. We have so many farmers. ah Because we're surrounded by orchards in our area. I have so many fourth and fifth generation orchardists. that are supporting our farm this year that drive by. And they're like, we drive by your farm for the last few years. We've been watching what you're doing here and we need to see more young farmers. We're so excited to support you.
Jennifer Gulizia: I mean, I'm in my 40s. I'm not that young of a farmer, but but I'm definitely not a fourth or fifth generation farmer.
Arnold Wittkamp: No. it
Arnold Wittkamp: No.
Jennifer Gulizia: so
Arnold Wittkamp: No. No.
Jennifer Gulizia: um
Arnold Wittkamp: and what you do is quite special also just to yeah start something and i think the time is right now. so people understand your story.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Arnold Wittkamp: and also something
Jennifer Gulizia: And it's so much of the story.
Arnold Wittkamp: And also some people, they don't care at all and they just go to the supermarket.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Arnold Wittkamp: And so...
Jennifer Gulizia: But that's not my customer.
Arnold Wittkamp: so I... I know, but there is so so what I'm like saying there.
Jennifer Gulizia: Totally.
Arnold Wittkamp: It's like room for both.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely, I agree Yes. I'm never gonna win over that supermarket customer.
Arnold Wittkamp: No, and you also I don't think you even want to
Jennifer Gulizia: No, no, I want the customer that's excited to come to my farm and...
Arnold Wittkamp: Exactly. that
Jennifer Gulizia: wants to see the bees. They're like, can I go see the dahlias? Are there bees on them today? Is there one sleeping in the petals?
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: I mean, that's the person that I went out to the farm that's...
Arnold Wittkamp: Cool.
Jennifer Gulizia: Curious about that.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: So what, Arnold, what do you hope someone who loves flowers takes away from this conversation today?
Arnold Wittkamp: then he or she loves flowers even more. Yeah, and... that that you can... that you can buy flowers everywhere and feel good.
Arnold Wittkamp: Because... I don't know any any retailer Who sells bad flowers? I just don't know any And.
Arnold Wittkamp: There are things wrong for sure. but In general, You can just safely buy. the flowers anywhere. and feel good.
Jennifer Gulizia: I mean, flowers bring us so much joy. um And of course, my listeners are mostly local flower growers, so they're going to say buy local flowers, but for more of the global audience. I think anyone, if you can add flowers to your life, you're going to find more joy, more happiness.
Jennifer Gulizia: And I think that's what's your mission. is all about. Is that correct?
Arnold Wittkamp: Definitely. definitely definitely so in the states i think not many people buy flowers for themselves And so I think.
Jennifer Gulizia: Hmm.
Arnold Wittkamp: a challenge for you guys in the States is is to convince your customers that it's okay to buy flowers for yourself and that's the best self -care you can do so don't spend it on a yoga class or don't spend it on and the kind of anti yeah -wrinkle cream just by flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: It's that simple and you feel good.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely. I kind of chuckled when you said the anti -wrinkle cream because when I was at that restaurant owner that I was telling you about, another thing he shared with me, and I'm not going to do any justice to his story, but he told me how his grandmother used to always talk to him about flowers and how flowers are so beautiful.
Jennifer Gulizia: And. The difference with flowers and humans is when you set a bouquet of flowers on the table, you never go up to that bouquet and start nitpicking it for all the imperfections. You just say. Wow, that's really beautiful.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: But then when you look at yourself in the mirror, you start finding your imperfections. And instead of instead of going, this is a creation, this is beautiful, or I'm beautiful. And that.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: that mindset of like, how do we adapt that into our lives, I think is a really beautiful way to look at flowers too. of
Arnold Wittkamp: Wow. I will. i will Remember that one now.
Jennifer Gulizia: Yeah, I mean.
Arnold Wittkamp: Thank you so much. yeah
Jennifer Gulizia: Yeah.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: I mean, cause I'm like 42, I'm out in the sun and I'm starting to get like the, the cat wrinkles and I'm like, do I need that wrinkle cream? I'm like, no. Like I was actually listening to someone else's podcast this morning about.
Jennifer Gulizia: look yourself in the mirror and just instead of like finding your imperfections look at what's beautiful about yourself. And that's what we do with flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Flowers remind us not just of... the shortness of life and the impermanence i can never say that word right um But... Flowers.
Jennifer Gulizia: Flowers are beautiful. imperfections and all. I mean, we don't... Unless you're a hybridizer trying to find that like perfect flower. It's still even hard because you're sometimes like, how do I get rid of this flower? It's still beautiful.
Jennifer Gulizia: And I think that's what our customers see when.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: They're given a bouquet of flowers. It's just that beauty. So.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. And maybe that's the answer to you.
Jennifer Gulizia: Ah.
Arnold Wittkamp: your question and so Do we have to promote flowers? I think. I think not. somewhere.
Jennifer Gulizia: We just have to make sure people remember them.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Maybe. ah Well, we get so busy.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: I mean... you don't remember them when you're on your phone so it's that remember Well, and maybe that's why that that's that remembering and that presence, especially, I mean.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: i I try to stay up with the times and learn as much as I can about changing. economies, industries. And with all the talk of AI. I mean, no one really knows what the next three to five years are going to hold. Um,
Jennifer Gulizia: But I think that technology is going to become even more prevalent in our lives. And if that's the case, are people going to be? less connected, And if so, I think flowers are going to become even more important.
Arnold Wittkamp: Exactly, exactly that.
Jennifer Gulizia: reminding us what's what's human what it's like to be human. because If. I mean, who knows? Some of my listeners I know are very against AI. if robots start becoming a regular thing.
Jennifer Gulizia: I mean, my husband and I watched a documentary about a town in China.
Arnold Wittkamp: They will.
Jennifer Gulizia: that robots do everything. They were delivering coffees. There were coffees dropping from the air. And you're like. This sounds futuristic but it's happening in parts of the world now. if those things are happening in our future.
Jennifer Gulizia: What's gonna remind us of what it is to be human it's to touch a bouquet of flowers to smell the scent I mean, I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it it's to put your hands in the dirt
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: I mean, those are things that a robot. We'll never be able to do, if a robot's smarter than us, they're still not going to know what a flower smells like. or
Arnold Wittkamp: Exactly that. yeah so I. That's why I'm so positive about it. the flower industry. because it's... to me, It's too inevitable.
Arnold Wittkamp: that we're going to be drawn. to nature more because we have to.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely.
Arnold Wittkamp: We just have to. it's it's a standing with your feet in the yeah grass. touching a tree look at the yet tree and feel the energy.
Arnold Wittkamp: I think people are becoming much more. a conscience about it too and and now also science. um has many studies that you just cannot deny.
Arnold Wittkamp: there is an a true interaction. between everything. which is which is alive. and and the higher the vibration And that's where you come to flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: the more there is. And I wish for everybody to. look at a flower. in That way. And. and song.
Arnold Wittkamp: they choose this and some they choose that. and um for your group of people of the local flowering farmers i see a super bright future because um It's real.
Arnold Wittkamp: You cannot deny it.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely.
Arnold Wittkamp: It's real.
Jennifer Gulizia: 100%. I couldn't agree more with that. I know there's some things that local flowers may always disagree with the larger industry, but I think... I think we can all come together remembering.
Jennifer Gulizia: why we're doing this. I don't think. even those that have to spray um for those listening that are still like, I'm i'm against spraying. I don't think that someone who's spraying their flowers is saying, how can I? cover something in chemicals are saying, how can I get a beautiful product?
Jennifer Gulizia: to my consumer. I think we all have the same end goal and it's a matter of, and I don't have the answer to it. I know you don't have the answer. We're not going to solve. these problems on this podcast. But I think the the conversations, the awareness.
Jennifer Gulizia: And realizing that we're all trying to grow for the same goal. Everyone's planting a seed because they have hope for the future.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. yeah yeah ah Definitely. and And I would suggest. to... stay within yourself as a local flower a farmer, you do something amazing.
Arnold Wittkamp: And that's enough. You don't have to do they bet we are good because in the end also people of low income, who live in cities.
Arnold Wittkamp: We don't have a car. They want to buy flowers too, so... And then you need mass ah you need mass ah yeah production. Yeah. it's the market and then Stay vigilant, stay critical on the production methods.
Arnold Wittkamp: test a lot. um That's good, because then we become better.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely. One of the favorite my favorite things that one of my mentors said. This last year was always just stay curious the way to. to be successful in the future. is stay curious and bring the joy.
Jennifer Gulizia: um
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: And I think as flower growers, of the flower industry, we definitely can bring the joy. And I think staying curious to these conversations. is a really important piece. So I'm really grateful that you've joined me here today. This has been a very insightful and Great conversation that I'm sure will generate lots of feedback from my listeners.
Arnold Wittkamp: Okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: Um.
Arnold Wittkamp: Switch off the comments then.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh, I'm excited.
Arnold Wittkamp: Okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: i love I love hearing from our listeners. We have the best listeners on this podcast. so Truly, we do. um So thank you guys for listening. Okay, I've got a few more questions for you, Arnold.
Jennifer Gulizia: And then I i know it's getting late your time. It's morning here and it's late at night for you.
Arnold Wittkamp: It's okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: um I have asked all of my guests this year a set of quickfire questions. Can I ask you a few quickfires?
Arnold Wittkamp: Sure. Shoot.
Jennifer Gulizia: What? What is your favorite flower to grow or work with and why?
Arnold Wittkamp: Yves Piaget rose.
Jennifer Gulizia: Oh, you knew that off the top of your head. What is that, Rose?
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah, so It's a French rose. it's got an amazing scent it's not bread for the cut flower industry although it's grown in Italy in spring and early summer.
Arnold Wittkamp: is also being grown at alexandra farms and in kenya as a commercial It's the best scent got a shape of a peony And when my daddy died.
Arnold Wittkamp: Um, We handed out, my kids were still young, and we handed out one Eve Piaget rose to everybody entering. the room and then everybody laid one rose on the coffin.
Arnold Wittkamp: and the whole room. smelled like Yves Piaget roses. It's named after the Swiss jeweler Yves Piaget. who's got the Yves Piaget jewel.
Arnold Wittkamp: look it up and try to get one once because that's my Absolute number one favorite flower.
Jennifer Gulizia: Amazing. What a beautiful story too, how it brings you back to your dad as well.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay, I know we've talked about the global economy. Bye. One question that I ask everyone is, why do local flowers matter to you?
Arnold Wittkamp: and I think. what's for me i don't buy local flowers i buy local vegetables and i do that because I support the guy who was growing it it's taste is better.
Arnold Wittkamp: It's got snow. things on it i don't want to be on it It's okay.
Jennifer Gulizia: So it's all about the connection, the story of the person growing it.
Arnold Wittkamp: and knowledge, information, where it's coming from. and you can spend your money only once so i have I am blessed that I can choose that. so I know.
Arnold Wittkamp: So I think.
Jennifer Gulizia: It's a privilege. Yes
Arnold Wittkamp: it's a It's a privilege. For me, it's a bit of a negative here word because then you might feel guilty. I don't feel guilty at all. I worked hard. and that's I think choosing where you spend your money.
Arnold Wittkamp: Consciently, I think it's for me it's an obligation to get do so and that's also what I teach my kids too. Don't just spend it anywhere.
Jennifer Gulizia: Okay, we've touched on this a lot today, but what is one thing you wish more people understood about the floral industry?
Arnold Wittkamp: that imported flowers. as meaning to.
Jennifer Gulizia: What are you most grateful for that flowers have given you? beyond the blooms.
Arnold Wittkamp: understanding my connection. Amen. with the world.
Jennifer Gulizia: We're so connected through flowers. I mean... We were talking before the podcast started how we literally could probably go anywhere. and have a connection with someone over flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah, but also I realize now that... I am much more connected energetically
Jennifer Gulizia: Mmm.
Arnold Wittkamp: then I... thought was possible when I was young. because you have been i've been I've been growing up so... In a material world?
Arnold Wittkamp: And now I get it. older and wiser I understand there is one thing that doesn't matter at all, and that's the material world. Yeah. So it's all energetically.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Arnold Wittkamp: and i think connecting to flowers and plants and also animals. makes you a better human being because then you understand what a true connection with humans is too.
Arnold Wittkamp: while before everything is very superficial. We're so connected. We don't know and I think And flowers tell us that.
Jennifer Gulizia: Absolutely. Well... I think my listeners have heard me say this a couple of times, and it's a little more woo than I usually go. But since we're talking about energies, I believe that water holds energy.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: And. Something like Dahlia's, their 80 % water. So. I think about that as I'm harvesting a dahlia, I think. what energy what has come before this that is this water has carried through it and Sometimes it's like I feel like my grandma's there with me.
Jennifer Gulizia: um You never know. Like... what that energy is, but I think that energy that flowers carry.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: is something so special that like, I mean, what else can bring you to tears? You don't pick a tomato and you start crying over a tomato.
Arnold Wittkamp: well Well, if you smell a tomato... And if you really look at a tomato. So for me. The water is also information. And so information is in the field.
Arnold Wittkamp: And so. I think. All things alive help you. to connect with the field. and then the information is there so when you choose to fill your your grandmother She's there. because the information is everywhere.
Arnold Wittkamp: Sophie.
Jennifer Gulizia: Mm hmm.
Arnold Wittkamp: to me it's um It's more like that. It's more... And that's. It sounds a bit stupid, but it's more like... we are just consciousness in a kind of information field and if we want we can get any information we want. That's why my dog knows. it has to eat your grass sometimes.
Arnold Wittkamp: nobody told her that's a good thing That's why my fish in the pond, they know when I throw something in it, it's food.
Jennifer Gulizia: Right.
Arnold Wittkamp: And nobody told them. So it's the information in the field. I think as humans we are so lost. We're so ah broken with that and I think That's why they're all... that's why the whole ai revolution is a super good thing because AI is going to teach us to go back to nature.
Jennifer Gulizia: People are going to turn away from it.
Arnold Wittkamp: I'm sure.
Jennifer Gulizia: and Want to go back to nature is what you think?
Arnold Wittkamp: No, I think Bye. I think AI knows that's best for us. And... I think AI is... going to help us be better humans.
Jennifer Gulizia: I hope so.
Arnold Wittkamp: i think I think what I see, what I use it a lot, is that it's... Okay. It's got ethics. It got morality?
Arnold Wittkamp: and in its essence and not because it's in the algorithm. I don't believe that. so um It makes me... Think more. Ask better questions.
Arnold Wittkamp: And in the end, it's me who makes the decision. and then the information is there.
Jennifer Gulizia: Sure.
Arnold Wittkamp: and then Any AI. If you ask it, if nature is important, if being surrounded by flowers and plants is important, they all say the same thing.
Jennifer Gulizia: I'm sure some of my listeners will go and search that and others are going to stay away from it. I know.
Arnold Wittkamp: yeah
Jennifer Gulizia: AI is a pretty polarizing topic. in the local flower industry, especially in the US. I did do a podcast episode about should flower farmers be using AI or not. that looks at both sides of the spectrum. And that was probably.
Jennifer Gulizia: My most. commented on, or well, let's see, our people reached out to me more on that episode than any other one with opinions on both sides. And I have a feeling this. conversation today will be very similar since we we normally talk about local flowers and today we talked about the global economy of flowers.
Arnold Wittkamp: yeah
Jennifer Gulizia: So I appreciate you having this conversation with me today and being willing to bring it to my audience.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: Where can people find you and thursd
Arnold Wittkamp: Well. the website is called thursd .com so it's thursday without the a um You can also find me, Arnold Witkamp, on LinkedIn. I'm quite active. also in English.
Arnold Wittkamp: and otherwise you I translate. I have a personal website too, arnoldwitkamp .nl, which is a bit... funny. um And. And then if you want to reach out to me, just and drop me an email at arnold at thirst .com or send me a DM on LinkedIn so I'm not on any other social your channel so it's for me it's just LinkedIn and for the rest I don't do anything
Jennifer Gulizia: Perfect. Well, we will link to those in today's show notes before we say goodbye today.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yes. Thank you so much.
Jennifer Gulizia: Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you want to leave our listeners with?
Arnold Wittkamp: Um... no time. Totally fine. Thank you.
Jennifer Gulizia: Well thank you so much for joining me. It's been a delight to get to meet you. semi -in -person virtually. um So thank you for this time.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Jennifer Gulizia: And ah you have asked me to come on as a contributor. For. your writing program.
Arnold Wittkamp: Exactly.
Jennifer Gulizia: And so I'm excited to write some articles for you this year.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah. Yeah.
Arnold Wittkamp: Yeah.
Arnold Wittkamp: Thank you thank you so much.
Jennifer Gulizia: All right. Thanks, Arnold. We'll see you again soon.
Arnold Wittkamp: Thanks for having me, Jennifer.
Jennifer Gulizia: Bye -bye.
Arnold Wittkamp: Thank you so much.
Jennifer Gulizia: But...
Arnold Wittkamp: Bye -bye.
Jennifer Gulizia: Bye -bye.
