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Humans are the GOAT - Ep 124
580 Plays3 years ago
In this episode, Connor and David take the reins while Carlton settles into his new position at in Bloomington.
After establishing Connor hasn’t seen Amazon’s “The Rings of Power” yet, they decide to delve into the topic of “how to not be offended by bad science.”
The two spend the 3 segments discussing how the media inaccurately advertises scientific research, and how that affects scientists
Transcripts
For rough transcripts of this episode go to www.archpodnet.com/ruins/124
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Transcript
Introduction to Life in Ruins Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Host Updates and Weather Satire
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome to episode 124 of a life in ruins podcast where we sometimes discuss the careers of those living a life in ruins. I think I'm Connor. You are. Okay. Okay. Okay. I think this is David here. Carlton is currently still in the throes of academia and trying to figure out where his office is, how to access stuff.
00:00:39
Speaker
Yeah, that. I'm in a house in Laramie, Wyoming. I am not in the bus right now currently. Connor, where are you? I am finally back in the greatest state in the union, Washington. Oh, come up. Was it wet there?
Manifest Destiny and Cultural Commentary
00:00:57
Speaker
Wet, mild, mild temperatures. Here's the thing, everyone out west is like, my ancestors trekked all the way out here and like, they're so brave and we're so strong, we're individualistic. Fuck you. We're out here. Wait, this isn't my podcast. This is ruins. All right, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
00:01:18
Speaker
Still though, everyone out here is like so headstrong and individualistic, and they think their way is the best, because, ooh, my grandpa went here on the Oregon Trail. But yeah, you know what you did? You also caused some manifest destiny on the way, maybe some smallpox, maybe some dysentery. People in New York have it better. We got pizza and bagels, what up? Yeah, and you didn't commit any manifest destiny or anything
Rings of Power and Tolkien Lore
00:01:41
Speaker
over there? We stayed in the tri-state area, ate some diet coke, and that's it for 200 years.
00:01:48
Speaker
That's where they developed that code for sure. The DC. The DC. Keep it classy.
00:01:54
Speaker
Have you watched, um, the, the rings of power yet, Connor? No, no, I haven't David. So, uh, I don't know why you're asking me. I really, I really don't. I'm genuinely upset. I'm looking at right now at the Lord of the rings, the book of lost tales, the children of here in the Baron and Luthien and also the fall of gondolin. So those are books. Do they, do they just like trash all that? Is that why you're looking at them? Are you don't have the rights to the Silmarillion, but they have the rights to everything else.
00:02:23
Speaker
Okay. So it's the book of lost tales as well. Yeah. Has it been accurate to lore so far? The only thing weird I have noticed is we don't see Galadriel's husband and she was married in the first stage. Uh, maybe he just hasn't shown up yet, but there's ship guy. That's Celebrimbor. Um, okay.
00:02:43
Speaker
He's the ship guy. He also has one of the rings. I think he has the water ring. Gandalf has the fire. Um, no, she has the water ring. Can't remember her care. I can't remember his name, but yes, that's the husband. You can probably Google that up. Celebrant boards, the ferryman. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. It's, it's Siridan. Siridan. No, wait. Celebrant boards are husband. Siridan is the boatman. Right. Okay. That's what it was. Okay. Yeah. I couldn't remember.
00:03:11
Speaker
Because Celebrimbor sounds like... No, because Kiridan sounds like Chiron, the guy for the Greek one. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. That checks out. Okay, so in the episode that we just recorded, I said that Galadriel is married to Celebrimbor. That is not correct. Celebrimbor is the Elven Smith. She is married to Celebrorn. Celebrorn is her husband. He's the lord of the La Vloré and one of the wisest of the old elves.
00:03:36
Speaker
However, Cirdan is the boatman. He did also have the Ring of Fire. He got that from Gil-galad, the King of the High Elves. Gil-galad died, gave it to Cirdan. Cirdan then gave it to Gandalf, and Gandalf has the Ring of Fire, and that's why he's really fun with fireworks, and he can light his staff on fire and stuff. That kind of stuff. So anyway, Cirdan is the boatman. Celeborn is Galadriel's husband. Celebrimbor is the elven smith, who Sauron tricks into making the Rings of Power.
00:04:12
Speaker
I'll start you off here. So it began with the forging of the great wings. Wings? No wings. Down with the forging of the great wings. Three were given to the elves, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Seven to the dwarf wards. Great Grouse and the reminders of the Malcolm Hoss. Listen, I'm trying to reduce from memory.
00:04:32
Speaker
Ah, words like dwarves. And nine. Nine rings were gifted to the race of men who above all else desire power. For within these rings was bound the strength and will to govern each race. So, but they were all of them deceived for another ring was made. In the land of Mordor, the fires of Mount Djinn, Dark Sauron... No! I messed it up!
00:05:06
Speaker
I've watched that movie far too many times, but we should talk about let's talk about the archaeology of Lord of the Rings. There's none. Continue. Well, I guess there is. There's like this statue, like the the the Aragon. Like, yeah, there's some there's some historical stuff there. Yeah.
00:05:23
Speaker
There's people squatting, mainly the dark armies are squatting in the fallen cities of Arnor and Gondor. Aren't the hobbits squatting too technically? Well, here we can get into some phrenology. So there's in the new series...
00:05:41
Speaker
We have Harfoots, which are a type of halfling. And then there's the stools. Stuars? Harfeet. Harp heads. The Harfoots. And I think the stuars are the stools. I can't remember. The stuars are what Gollum is, like they're fishermen. They live like along the Anduin. And then I forget what the other ones are that live up in the north in the kingdom of Arnor. And that's what the main hobbits of the Shire are mixed with Harfoots.
Personal Updates and Upcoming Content
00:06:10
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah. So not phrenology, more just biological anthropology, but... I like how you prefaced it with phrenology, though. I mean, that's the good good.
00:06:22
Speaker
We should preface this and let everyone know that we are still recording this podcast. We've had like a crazy couple months. David has been in the field. Carlton has been moving across country. And I was in Hawaii for a little bit. And we actually all got to see each other this weekend at Alexander Craig's wedding, which was awesome. Episode something. He's on two of them. Don't listen to him. Yeah, they're annoying.
00:06:50
Speaker
Just kidding. We love you, Crave. So you're in his house right now. Yeah, I know. I may have eaten a bag of onions or two. The little lunchbox bags of them, you know, I bought some more. Oh, is there a bottle of beer in there? A bottle in Crave's house? There's probably several. Like a big old bottle. Oh, I don't know. I haven't seen one.
00:07:16
Speaker
But we're going to have more content coming out here soon. Lots more research, more guests, more fun, more terrible jokes. We just need a little bit of a reset. Sorry for all the reruns. It's a lot of work to do this.
00:07:32
Speaker
That's the main work being planning and like finding out when we're all going to be in the same spot together to do it. And then do we have wifi? Do we have a guest? It's a lot. So we're really sorry, but do shoot us some messages with like what episodes you guys would like to hear or shoot us an email, but we have some good ones planned are going to have Shane and Jesse back on
Handling Archaeological Discoveries and Sensationalism
00:07:52
Speaker
here soon. And Dr. Pelton.
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's my a geologist of Wyoming. Yeah. Uh, so my big question was, because everyone just listened to settlers through of sorority, uh, the last one we just released or they didn't and ignored it, whatever. My big question, my only thought that I've had in the last like two weeks is how do we deal with new discoveries without being a bunch of dicks? But I'm in a shoe box barium.
00:08:24
Speaker
Is that what you do with your GI Joes? I don't... I did that. I wrapped them in toilet paper, then buried them in a shoebox like a mummy. Except my parents didn't get me GI Joes. I got max steels. It's like a long brand one. Yeah. The true value. Great value. Great value. True value is the hardware story. Yes. In spirit, you got it right. Okay. Yes. So I do notice... I want to have Todd on the talk about this, but
00:08:54
Speaker
That's time for another, that's just for another day. However, I talked with him and Bob this summer sitting in the field when that new paper came out. My first instinct, as soon as I see a headline that's like, archaeologists are wrong or like push the date back or farther than we ever thought. It's just clickbait and that clickbait agitates me because when you actually read the paper, I should just talk to Stefan about this yesterday.
00:09:17
Speaker
like they're like Bob for it okay so Bob pointed out some things top one out some things I'll go with the Todd one I was like this there's no lithics in this paper
00:09:26
Speaker
And Todd was like, let me look at that. And he like zooms in and I call my phone looking at it. And he's like, okay, these are lithics, but they're not lithics. And then he was like explaining, if you look at all of the, the graphs and the charts they use, they have all these fancy like algorithms and charts and graphs and like visuals for you to look at it, all for you to say, like, if you kneel down and squint and bend over, you can kind of see a platform on this flake. Whereas like.
00:09:51
Speaker
any Clovis paper, you don't need that because there's like actual tool industry everywhere and there's actual stratigraphy and there's actual everything. And I talked about this with Bob, I don't remember if it was me or him that said it, but we came to the same conclusion either way, just with different words. Homo erectus gets all the way to Australia using bifacial tool technology, right?
00:10:12
Speaker
We've been using tools for about three million years. Good tools for about a million. Homeworkers gets all the way there. We get to China, we get to Siberia with them. We get all the way there. There's even paleolithic points and things and baharpoons and stuff up in Siberia about the time of the Americas being populated. Now, do you mean to tell me
00:10:32
Speaker
that from a million years ago, homo erectus using bifacial tool technology, people walking to the Americas in the height of the Pleistocene freezing cold, where you need bone needles, you need stone tools, you need wood tools, you need everything to exist. You need a microclimate on your body. You need to have protein. You need to have vegetation. You have to get all these things. Did people just forget how to make stone tools until Clovis? I don't understand.
00:11:00
Speaker
And like the serruti site, it's like, okay, they bash some elephants with a, like with a rock. That's it. Okay. You need a lot more than that to butcher a mammoth unless you're just biting it yourself and walking away, which is a lot of calorie expenditure to just take a fucking. Sorry, Chris. No, leave it in. I'm on a, I'm on a.
00:11:18
Speaker
but just take a bite off of a mammoth. Like, it's bullshit. None of these things, and like, Stefan and I were just talking yesterday, we should have him on too, but he was like, there's never a smoking gun. And this is me and Stefan talking, whereas a few months ago, he was very convinced of White Sands. He was like, yeah, people have been here. And now he's like, you know what? Again, I don't know, because none of these papers make sense. I'm off my soapbox. How do I not get mad at it? I don't know, Xanax.
00:11:44
Speaker
So, I think the Clovis stuff is different because, you know, that I think is something that we've beaten to a dip. So, if we like talk about something different. So, my friend was just talking to me yesterday and he said that there's this new paper that came out on a new DNA analysis of someone found in Indonesia and it kind of
00:12:05
Speaker
So I just wanted that whole tirade about, we don't need to talk about that. I'm so sorry. No, no, no, no. That's a great question. I'm just trying to approach it with a different example because we've beaten that one to dead horse, like pre Clovis. You know our thoughts. We were very clear on that. But my reaction yesterday, so I was at, I was at a bar drinking as, as one does. And my buddy's like, Hey, there's this new paper that came out that says like the,
00:12:30
Speaker
There's a previously unfound species of human in Australia. Have you heard about it? And my first reaction is always something like that, being like, it's bullshit. It's bullshit. But that's not a good scientific reaction to have every single time something comes out.
00:12:50
Speaker
that is contrary to what we know currently. So how do we have that conversation and how do we accept new data and how do we learn about new things without immediately just having that first, like, oh man, here we go again sort of reaction. Yeah.
00:13:09
Speaker
I'm just not sure how to approach that. That's BS. We talked about this with Shane and Jesse, I think, with White Sands. I've even played devil's advocate saying, what if it is?
00:13:23
Speaker
Like, my first instinct is when I read those headlines, I get agitated. I don't get agitated at the possibility of something being different. I get agitated that the media puts these things on there that make us look like idiots. And it's like, we're wrong about prehistory. There's one little paper that has shitty flakes in it, make every archaeologist who's worked their whole life wrong? No.
00:13:43
Speaker
Absolutely not. And it's honestly like kind of a travesty that like the media just does that and like people just disregard science because of that because of one clickbait headline. So the headline upsets me. When I open up the paper and I read it, I'm actually pretty calm because I'm like, let me read this. And like with the new one we were reading the other day,
00:14:04
Speaker
in the New Mexico one it was like this is this is shit it's nothing in here like where's where's the stone tools you know I don't know and with the a DNA stuff that shit changes so much it's like I can't even keep up with it there's a new dog one every day and it's like well
00:14:20
Speaker
Like I trust Angela, obviously, because we're like in the same kind of network. We're like, I, I know her work. She does, she does like top tier genetic stuff. She says 20,000 years ago in Siberia, but other papers come out like every week that are like dogs and wolves have common ancestors of a hundred thousand years ago. We were wrong about dog. Most occasion a new one comes out every day. Like it's fricking popcorn. Which one do you buy? And what is the definition of dog and wolf in those papers? And that's a whole other.
00:14:49
Speaker
thing we can get into, but I guess I'm getting hot. Yeah, you're not. I can figure it out. So it's the media's depiction of it that is really what sets us off, and then it really puts me in that sour mood. Yeah, and then you read the comments on Reddit, and you're like, what the hell? These people believe this? Yeah, just for everyone out there, the archaeology subreddit on Reddit is... It's leukemia.
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah. It's actual, it's actual cancer. Don't. Uh, there's, although someone did recommend us in one of those posts, they're like, what is a good archeology podcast? And they're like, Oh, a life in ruins. Those guys really suck. And they never know what they're talking about. Yes, but it's not, it's not that cancerous. There are good people on there, but it's like the general public will comment things. And I literally saw a paper that said the Clovis window was like 700 years max.
00:15:46
Speaker
And somebody commented, like, middle finger emoji saying, fuck you, Clovis. And it's like, I had to comment, and I was like, like, I too, belittle ancient civilizations that didn't, that had nothing to do with me, you know? I can't remember what it was, and it like, got super upvoted, because like, the guy was just out of line. And it's like, people get so passionate, like I am right now, against Clovis, that it's also a cult. And like, those people, they can read stuff online, and like, they're like, told Clovis is stupid, because archaeologists think it's real.
00:16:16
Speaker
And like, I don't know. And it's like the thing that they assume on like those things is that pre-clovis is accepted and basically there. That's like all I hear is like, well, we've known for 50 years that pre-clovis was a thing. And you're like, no, no, we're still not fully convinced. Yeah. And then there's the whole right now, too, like,
00:16:41
Speaker
This is a tough one and Carlton and you and I talked about this the other day. A lot of people will comment on my posts when I do pre-club stuff saying like, well, yeah, indigenous Americans have been saying this for centuries like.
00:16:52
Speaker
and you guys disregarded it. And it's like, okay, well, when you say indigenous Americans, do you mean every single nation on the continent or just the one that you're specifically cherry picking that says they were here forever? Cause like you're lumping them in as a monolith when you say that. And like, do I need to go through every single indigenous myth to find out which one aligns with white sands? No.
Indigenous Narratives in Archaeology
00:17:14
Speaker
It's like, yes, we should believe indigenous mythologies, but also like there is some science that like,
00:17:21
Speaker
kind of backs some stuff up and some that kind of doesn't and like not every mythology says they've been here forever and like there's even one i think carlton was in the pony like maybe this pony can't remember one of them says it began with ice which is cool like you know but it's those comments sorry that like
00:17:40
Speaker
get me like grind my gears because like people want to be like you know support indigenous like mythology and belief and like they feel like they're getting points for that when they say that on the internet but they also have no idea what the scientific repercussions of that are and like that kind of I don't know puts me in a spot
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And we're always trying to rectify and work with communities of knowledge and the archaeological record. But we try to do that in a way that's not just one way traffic. We want to take evidence from both sides and work with it together. So please don't comment that on David's stuff. We'll be right back. This is episode 124 of a Life in Ruins podcast.
00:18:27
Speaker
Whatever you want, but just don't tag Connor. Welcome back to a life in ruins podcast episode 124. It's me. It's your boy, David. We chatting. We got some DC. We're living the life.
00:18:42
Speaker
We also want to put a little asterisk and say that when David was referring to something as myths and mythologies, he's really talking about belief systems and the way that people think about this world. We're not lumping it into lore or whatnot, but these are actual beliefs that people have and whatnot. There's a lot of things that are used interchangeably for me throughout doing history and anthropology work, and a lot of that is changing now.
00:19:10
Speaker
And it's hard to keep up with what words to use sometimes. And I think belief system is probably just the best to use because like, there are myths within mythologies and belief systems. But like, let's just go with belief systems because you can say Christianity is belief and mythologies. Yeah. And there's different worldviews and whatnot. We were just saying that there's different
00:19:35
Speaker
What's up? I really do struggle with this representation in the media of archaeology and then I have to defend myself to everyone. My parents will be like, did you hear about this new thing over here? And I'm like, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. Let's bring it back. The context is something that is the nuanced stuff that we always really miss is that
00:20:04
Speaker
Context what they're talking about and what? The history of it and whatnot is and that's what the cool one of the cool things about being an archaeologist I've learned is that you learn about the history of what we how we've learned about things You can really understand the past more if you understand how we created it or how we analyzed it and how we got to this point There's a weird sound that came out of me. I was trying to
00:20:30
Speaker
I had a thought, but then you had a really good thought. And then I was like, man, that thought's really good. What did you say? Welcome to the inner working of David's brain. Yeah. So like I could, this is the point at which I would normally be like, I would just refer to the script and then ask a question that's already been asked. Do you mind repeating what you just said for me? It's like, for example, we learn about, or I did, learned about the Clovis mafia, allegedly.
00:20:56
Speaker
Allegedly. Waste management, allegedly. Allegedly.
Media Miscommunication in Science
00:21:01
Speaker
And how Clovis and pre-Clovis sites, there's a history to them and how the scientific community treated different sites and different people. So if you understand that, you kind of understand the pre-Clovis and Clovis debate now, because you understand that there's personalities, there's
00:21:21
Speaker
There's been people who have been fighting for one side specifically and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you, if you know the history of people, archeologists studying stuff to get to a point, you really understand the archeology of an area. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. That didn't, that didn't, no light bulb didn't, didn't trigger anything. No, like it's a good statement that I like honestly can't follow up without changing.
00:21:48
Speaker
to it.
00:22:06
Speaker
forever, then you understand Cerruti. And then you're like, okay, that kind of makes sense. That puts it into that context. Or if you understand Todd's work, you know he doesn't like Preclovis and he'll make mathematical models to say that Preclovis doesn't exist.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yes. Or if you look at Bob's work, he's like pre-glows doesn't exist because yeah. And like, then when you read a paper from them, of course they're not going to mention pre-glow, you know, so. Yeah. Or if you, if you like, why does no one accept Monteverde? Well, there's a history. Like Dilla. Hey, it was like laughed out of a lot of that stuff and people were crapping on him. I mean, it's probably the same thing with like the ancient DNA for dogs. Like you have like strong personalities who fight each other.
00:22:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And I've been dominating one part or actually shady stealing of research, which is something that I hope one day we can talk about. Yeah, that's an issue.
00:23:02
Speaker
you know, not being put on papers or anything like that when you're talking about all the time. So there's like that. And then also, let's see, a point I wanted to make before too is like, there's, COVID was a very good example of this. There is consistent science that is out there on, okay, washing your hands kills germs. Okay. Hand sanitizer killed. We know that.
00:23:24
Speaker
That's the basis of things, right? And then you get someone saying, maybe put bleach in your lungs or UV light in your lungs. Then you get someone saying use horse tranquilizer that, you know, that doesn't cure COVID. It just makes the symptoms worse or less or whatever. Like you should all that stuff out. So people inflate that then with, oh, it cures COVID or people that believe that think it cures COVID.
00:23:47
Speaker
It prevents COVID and it gets, it just, it all gets like, like, you know, discombobulated in like the telephone line. But like to go back to what I'm saying, there are things we know. We know coronaviruses exist. We know hand sanitizer kills them on your hands. Got science that we know. And then with a lot of people here in the pandemic, it's like scientists are idiots. They don't know anything because, oh my God, what do we have to do? We test things and then we find out different things and then new information comes and we're like, okay, we were wrong about that.
00:24:16
Speaker
Let's continue. So that happens a lot with an archaeology, too. And I'm sure in zoology and I'm sure I'm sure in astronomy, because you see so many headlines are like asteroid coming to Earth, like all that kind of stuff. It's going for us, brother. How much of that is like in the same camp that we are? That is just the media says this, but astronomers are like, oh, my God. So there's a there's a consensus of things that we can all agree upon. Let's say like the hand sanitizer of
00:24:46
Speaker
Paleolithic archaeology is stone tools. We know they had stone tools and we know they use them very well. And humans have been using composite tools for almost 100,000, 200,000 years. Why? They're not supposed to ingest them. No, you're not supposed to ingest composite tools. Well, I mean, I guess. Wait, hang on. We're forgetting into the weeds of it. Tylenol, if it's in a capsule with the little extended release powders in it, that is a composite tool and you ingest it. Ooh.
00:25:13
Speaker
Technically. The capital is a tool and the antibiotic is, er, the, and the pain relievers is a tool. Uh, cheese, I guess is considered a tool.
00:25:21
Speaker
depends on what you're doing with the cheese. It's like, is that cause you eat it with sadness? No, I guess like you can use tool to bait mice, use cheese to debate mice. Okay. Yeah. I mean, we're good in the weeds. But anyway, when someone says like, and you have to defend yourself to your friends or to your family. And my dad sent me a Tik TOK yesterday about some gold Beckley techie thing they found. And then the next thing was like, and the Sphinx, did you know the Sphinx?
00:25:47
Speaker
It's probably 10,000 years old with water erosion, blah, blah, blah. And my dad was like, any merit to this? I was like, well, the Sphinx thing goes on. Everyone talks about that. I personally think it was Anubis first before it was a cat face because if you look at the head versus the body, it is weird. Something fell off and they recarved it, just hit undo. But is it 10,000 years old with water erosion? No, that's a whole other podcast topic. But the first video that was in that TikTok video my dad sent
00:26:12
Speaker
was just somebody taking like videos of like a pillar that had sand that it was just saying, this is a 12,000 year old civilization that everything we know about prehistory is wrong. And like, you can just say anything. You can literally say, put bleach in your lungs by taking a picture of a pillar and saying that archeologists are idiots. And like, that's, that's the issue to me. And like, you have to kind of base it. Like we know so much stuff about prehistory. Like we know like a general gist of what went on on this earth.
00:26:42
Speaker
Because there's only so far down you can dig. And it's pretty consistent, right? So randomly, I'm going to keep bringing it back to Clovis. We can talk about genetics or any other papers too. But there's a consensus. And when something comes out of that consensus, that's let's say 98% of the iceberg. And the tip top of the iceberg is the weird few pre-Clovis sites. It's important to be scrutiny of them. Because yes, the iceberg does stick out of the water and it exists.
00:27:13
Speaker
That's not the best metaphor, because I can't think about what the end of that would be. But I guess I'm saying both of it exists. But you need to be scrutinized of the top one, because it's not the whole thing.
00:27:23
Speaker
It's statistics, right? You're looking at outliers on either end of your bell curve, right? So there are outliers in the world. There are things that are going to be different. They're beyond the normal range of variation. And that's okay. That's okay to happen because humans are weird and we do weird shit and we sometimes just go off and do whatever.
00:27:48
Speaker
we have to acknowledge those as either anomalies or like really far outside of the normal range variation.
Social Media's Role in Science Communication
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's like. Right. Like I guess pre-clovis being the tip of the iceberg, the rest of the massive iceberg isn't there. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's what I meant. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting being friends with you and talking with you about this stuff because the only way to really like combat this or to
00:28:16
Speaker
stop disinformation is to do it on the platforms like TikTok, like Instagram, because that's how people consume their information these days. I mean, maybe podcasts. I don't think anyone listens to this one, but whatever. But that's the easy, quick way for people to get information. So it's crazy for me to think about, and being friends with you, watching you distill all information down into those little bits.
00:28:44
Speaker
also disproving what people are thinking are like what is wrong, but also informing them at the same time. So like you, Zeke Darwin, who's the, the science Isaac. Yeah. Who's the other cat lady who almost got eaten by the Lindsay, Lindsay, Nicole, like all those people, it is, it's, it's fascinating me to watch you guys do it. Like how, how do you do that? How do you like distill information down into something like that?
00:29:14
Speaker
Isaac does really well because he gets people commenting about evolution is wrong, Jesus is the way, and he indulges that and will comment and respond.
00:29:24
Speaker
That drives up his engagement. He also makes wonderful videos. Lindsay does like quick little things and she also gets comments like that. And like she was saying, she gets some controversial ones as well. And that drives it up mine. I sometimes get some controversial ones, but like today I condensed, I had an Atari artwork, which is like usually my best posts. And I did a little 60 second reel, which is the amount of time you're supposed to do.
00:29:48
Speaker
And I talked about the earliest dogs and like Neolithic dog breeders. It has 2000 views. So to answer your question, I don't know because I'm really pissed at Instagram right now because like none of the mammoth videos have done well. Like actual science videos haven't done well at all. And it's.
00:30:04
Speaker
really bumming me out because now what do I do? Do I just need to make clickbaity shit? That's the landscape that we live in. That's the media landscape is the, or either bash people or you clickbait or, but if you try to like tell a good story or tell about good archeology or science, you're like, eh.
00:30:24
Speaker
Yeah that or somebody's like reporting my account cuz that happens to like it'll just knock you down so you don't send stupid shit up all the internet but I don't know maybe it's just like the time of the like people going back to school that's getting slow I don't know but to answer your question to condense it all down it took me like an hour to make that real.
00:30:43
Speaker
Cause I had to make sure what I was saying was right. And like, you've seen me do it in person. Like I do it like five or six times, usually all in one take. And I'll take the one that's like not the funniest, but also not the most serious. And I'll like find one in the middle that like works. And then like, that's like my style. And then I'll post it. Sometimes it gets 2 million views. Sometimes it gets four. And like recently it's been getting 2000 on average. Whereas my usual is like a hundred to 200,000. This is like, you have like what? 40,000 followers at this point or?
00:31:13
Speaker
Uh, let's just say 50,000 Instagram and 150 on TikTok. That's wild. Yeah. Well, Lindsay's got like 2.3 mil. Her, uh, her series about the history of life was fascinating. She nailed that. Another thing she does. Well, she does. She really nails it as her videos are like, just like Donnie's are consistent. You know, it's her cause she has a look at her heads on an angle and she's like, what's up when she's like talking, she wears the beanie. It's consistent.
00:31:41
Speaker
Donnie's got all the furs in the background. Mine are all over the place. I don't want to do consistent because my life isn't consistent. But maybe I need to do that to get more more views. I don't know. But the point is if I'm not having fun with it, there's no point in doing it. So.
00:31:58
Speaker
Yeah, random thing. Did you see Donny's latest TikTok where he made like a arrow maka waddle? No. It is fascinating. So yeah, he just has like an arrow and then he takes little bits of flakes and then puts them on either side of it. Oh, like an Inuit one. Yeah. Yeah. Aztecs used those too. Yeah. I was like, that's brilliant. I thought you meant like a maka waddle with arrowhead sticking out of it.
00:32:23
Speaker
That would also be very difficult. Polynesians use like bats like that too, but with shark teeth sticking out of them and shells and stuff. When you don't have metal, you find some ways to kill people. And when you have like, don't have a lot of material, you find ways to use the material that is leftover. Yeah, very true. When I was, I hung out with, I don't know if we talked about this, I hung out with Donny a couple of days ago, went down to his place and
00:32:48
Speaker
the Denver area is what I'm supposed to say and saw his house like and he's it's just like an archaeologist house dude there's like lithics everywhere ones that he's made one that like people have given him and like he has the big like he's got furs everywhere and arrows that he's made and then he has the stories and stone poster that's what I'm talking about
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's the big one with all the points and the eccentrics and whatnot. And he told me all he has to do this year is finish his book. Like he's being paid to do that. So he just kind of chills all day and full of naps and makes his videos. And he was like, what I really want to finish this year is to nap the entire story in stone poster to the flake scars, like to the size and like just make the actual. And I was like, damn, dude. And he showed me something he made and I was like, whoa.
00:33:34
Speaker
Like, yeah, like those big, like crescent ones, like in the top corner, don't they have like the big crescent ones with like the aft? There's two versions of the poster, but yeah, that's not, I really want to buy that. I need that poster. Me too. It's, if you don't know what we're talking about, it's called segments of the story in stone. I think it is the best from story in stone and it's a big, like almost black and white looking poster, but it's all blue instead of black.
00:34:03
Speaker
Blue and white was cool. Yeah, I should have used I should get that tattooed on my back all of it All of it heavy metal dude, or it'd be lithic. All right, we'll be right back and then Welcome back to episode 124 podcast David's mumbling in the background like a blithering idiot. It was in this moment when all hope had faded
00:34:30
Speaker
that Isildur, son of the king, took up his father's sword, and the enemies of the free peoples of Middle-earth was defeated. The ring passed to Isildur. All right. The Sauron was defeated. Did he? No, not at all. I know. So on the same sort of topic, I was thinking as... Pulsa-Trid of the Fire!
Teaching Controversial Archaeological Topics
00:35:00
Speaker
on the same sort of topic. So if you are a professor, or if you're a teacher, or if you're a person who does archaeology and you have to teach other people about it, how do you deal with controversies like this in the classroom, in the field setting? So if an undergrad came up to you when you were at LaPrel as part of the field school and was like,
00:35:26
Speaker
You know, I heard this, uh, this thing about this Saruti Mastone site, you know, it's pretty cool that like Homo erectus was like popping into the US and, uh, smashing up mammoths. Like, how do you, how do you teach that in that moment? I have a real life example with Kennewick, man.
00:35:45
Speaker
I guess, but that's a little different. I was talking about Kennewick Mann and NAGPRA given a presentation for the previous program I worked for. And I had mentioned like the whole thing with him being like he had caucasoid features is what they listed or Caucasian features. I remember the word they used. And a guy in like the like the audit or the lab asked me like in the middle of the presentation, like, does that mean he I can't remember exactly what he asked, but like,
00:36:14
Speaker
I was like, I think, and obviously in the lecture, I said, it doesn't mean he was white or Caucasian. It just meant he had those features. And the guy was like, well, doesn't that mean he's like from east of the caucus mountains? And I was like, I mean, North America is technically east of the caucus mountains. Yes. But like, I don't know. I'll get back to you. And like, I kind of just like because I think it was just they said that he had caucasoid features was like what it was. But anyway, in that moment, I didn't have an answer. I didn't want to like
00:36:42
Speaker
stop the lecture to think about it or look it up. I was just like, I will get back to you. And like after class or after the lecture, like I sat down and I was like, so what was your question? And then we went over it. That's how I've always done it. And I had an anatomy teacher in high school who if you asked him, like somebody was like, what's a pancreas? And he was like, you know what? I think I know what it does. That was an example, but it was something, something pretty specific. And he was like, I don't know the answer, but I will get back to you with it. And I always thought that was like a good,
00:37:10
Speaker
thing to do because some people will just give you an answer and like make it up on a fly. Yeah. Or combat you. So you take like a moment back to process your thoughts and then tell that. Yeah. And especially with like a question like that, like a pre Clovis or like a genetics one or like, you know, some human evolution one where someone asks that to the whole class, especially if you're teaching a lecture hall, like,
00:37:35
Speaker
It would be awkward to make it into a whole like open forum discussion while you still have to go over the lesson or like the lecture. So like I think it's just best to be like I mean in the moment like let's talk after class. But then because people don't like confrontation and then the confrontation would start with the person asking the question and that's on them.
00:37:54
Speaker
But yeah, I don't know, man. I guess, were you asking the public in general? Well, I was just thinking, so like, as part of your syllabus, your outline, would you teach pre-clovis versus clovis sites? Would you have that information presented to them in a way that's like, hey, this is the information. This is the site. This is the things they say happened. This is the criticism. I feel like you have to like,
00:38:19
Speaker
Or if I was teaching, I would try to build it in so you at least give a platform for discussion about those things. But I could also see taking the tact of not teaching it because it's not accepted science and that's what they're here for. They're like a 100 level course and they expect you to just teach you what the facts are.
00:38:39
Speaker
So like I feel like it's both ways. You could either be like completely ignore these like outlying science, like outlier stuff, or you could use it as a teachable moment and be like, this is what people are saying. This is the context. This is the criticisms, et cetera. I think it would be a very difficult like decision to make. Yeah, I think you're out of the money. The closest thing I've done, I guess, to that is like I did a post on horses and I said that like,
00:39:08
Speaker
You know, horses went extinct in the places seen here, heard the Holocene transition, and then they weren't brought back until the Spanish reintroduced them on accident. Well, I mean, I guess they brought the horses on purpose, but... Yeah, how does how does horse get on here? It's like a rat, just a lot of shit. It's Bill. It's Bill the Pony. Bill, what the fuck are you doing here?
00:39:37
Speaker
We have a horse on the ship for the non-Espanol Blantes. So what I said was horses went extinct, yada, yada. And then I posted in a comment, edit, there is, however, research of Native American oral traditions that does state that horses existed.
00:39:55
Speaker
prior after the Pleistocene up until today and I said however there is not enough data for me to say this is true or not or something like that and I I said that was the case but I said my opinion at the end of it but I also said there's just no data to there's no physical evidence to prove it.
00:40:12
Speaker
at this current moment. I think that's what I said. Yeah, it exists, but there's no physical evidence to prove otherwise. So what I did was, you know, add the indigenous belief system or the indigenous research to it. Do I agree with that? I don't necessarily know because I haven't
00:40:31
Speaker
talked with the people she studied in that study or her book that she's writing, or their book. However, I don't see any physical evidence for it, so therefore, I'm gonna have the right to my opinion. But the post wasn't about that. The post was about something else. And I got someone that messaged me and said, you know, writing that only gives more credence to it. And I was like, yeah, I know, but I still need to write it because it's a counter argument to it. And it's one of those moments where I'm like,
00:40:59
Speaker
I could just leave it out, but then I'm also being a colonist by not adding in the indigenous part, you know? So yeah. Yeah. I mean, this weird rope, you got to walk. Yeah. And if you, you know, those comments you'll get on that thing will be like, where's the counter argument? What's so, what about Paulette Steve's? What about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? So it's like, as a good scientist, you present the information on both sides and do the best you can.
00:41:29
Speaker
It's the nuance of it. I think the tact of presenting both sides is good, but there's also a combative nature to it. You want to give both sides, but you also want to be sure that people understand what is accepted and what is not.
00:41:46
Speaker
So yes, it's hard. No, it's just, yeah, it's like, it's walking the fine line of like, do you get, do you, do you even let people know about what's his face? Triangle guy? The, what's, what's. Triangle guy? I can't even think of his name. That's how dumb I think he is. Small cock, small cock.
00:42:15
Speaker
Graham Hancock. Yeah. Yeah. So like, do you, do you, do you, do you put that into the world? I feel like I'm less privy, I'm less likely to put that in because it's not. Oh yeah. It's solid example with that, with that right there. I sent it to the group chat. We have a group chat called the settlers of sorority. This one, David FFS, which means for fuck's sake, because I never remember which, which group text it is. That's what Dr. Tune and Dr. Miller and Dr. Gover and Connor and I, the plebes.
00:42:43
Speaker
And it was a scientific American paper that was talking about the existence or the possible theoretical existence of a pre-homosapien civilization that existed on Earth that was reptilian or something. And I was like, this is the scientific American. And the headline, of course, said scientists are researching if, or something to that extent, a pre-human industrial civilization existed on Earth.
00:43:10
Speaker
And like scientists believe or whatever it said was like, I don't, and I'm a scientist. I'm a registered scientist. I don't believe that. And like, it's infuriating.
00:43:27
Speaker
Yeah, but that's a published scientific journal that people can cite. Someone could cite that and say, according to this. I think it's a magazine. Oh, Scientific America. Oh, okay. Maybe it's not a publication. Yeah, but still, I mean, like, yeah, it's bullshit, dude. I just picture like a cyberpunk
00:43:50
Speaker
like civilization in like America, but like they're like, like flippy back hair and like they're, they're metal, metal boots. That's what I think of when they say pre pre. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an industrial complex. They're just like, yeah, on that one. And I read the comments, there was a lot of geologists in there and people saying like, yeah, that's just not like they also said there's only so much earth you can dig through.
00:44:20
Speaker
And like so much boring has happened on the planet. So much drilling for everything you would see up in Jetsons car or two that said like lizard Jesus died for a sins on the back of it. If that existed and there's just none of it at like, so did it just all disintegrate? I don't know.
Anthropology and Cultural Understanding
00:44:38
Speaker
And like Amy, what is her net water? Is that, is that Marianne's revenge? Yeah. Yeah. I thought for some reason at water is the
00:44:48
Speaker
Frank Reynolds Shell Company on Sunday. I was like, is that it? She also said, like, I don't even think we were discussing it. She had just suggested that the Anthropocene, she doesn't buy it. We're still in the Holocene because the Anthropocene would suggest that humans have left a geologic signature on the earth. I'm not a geologist. I can't really weigh in on that, but I personally believe we probably have.
00:45:13
Speaker
In many ways, like you'd see some kind of staining at least from us being here. And if not, like big boreholes into the earth and stuff. But again, I'm not a geologist. However, so maybe there was something here a long time ago that is now disintegrated or they built all their stuff out of like shell and shark tooth huts. But like, there's no evidence for it, so to say. So like, therefore we have a consensus that says, okay,
00:45:42
Speaker
Humans are the first anthropoid, intelligent to our degree of intelligence. How do we define intelligence in a PC way? Dude, I'm not walking on eggshells. Humans is the goat. We're good. Intelligence is intelligence, all right? And that's the name of this podcast. Humans are the goat. Yeah, not the lizard goat, not the reptilian goat, just the goat. David, what does anthropology mean to you?
00:46:12
Speaker
Anthropology is kind of, it's a philosophy to me. Like you, like anthropologists fundamentally see the world differently from other people. I think a lot of people like don't go out into the world or like, you know, I just went to Safeway today and like look at everything in terms of like ecological numbers and like,
00:46:34
Speaker
These grapes came from fricking Africa and like things like that. And like, have a small panic attack when you pick up Nutella. Cause you're like, none of this came from this continent. Um, and like, so it just fundamentally changes the way you view the world. And it is like seeing humans to me as like zoological beings more so than like something different is like awesome to me, but also like freaks me out sometimes too. Cause like, I don't know, you see a dude at a bar, like talking to a girl, you're like cables, primate behavior.
00:47:03
Speaker
And then like you're looking out and I'm like, I see a steel structure that is the safe way.
00:47:09
Speaker
And I'm like, cool, it's got bricks on the outside. It has a frame. Okay. We used to do that in the frigging jungle, uh, with wood frames and like lashings and stuff, but doing the same thing. We all need shelter. And like all that goes on in my head, like while I'm pushing the cart and I'm like having a small issue every day. But yes. What did I, what did I come here for? Exactly. And as Bob said too, and which I'll probably tell my kids this, if I ever shoot one of those out, but like,
00:47:34
Speaker
It is far much better of a life to me to be curious about your Somali neighbors down the block than to be hostile to them. Like, why do you wear that on your head? Why is your food this way? Like, why is your language that way? You know, rather than just be like, get them out of here. So it's like, I know it's just, it's a way to like view life. I don't know.
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah, I would, I would say like in the same sort of vein, it makes me, it has made me a lot more tolerant of people's behavior and understanding people's behavior in the context of the larger world that we live in, traditions, et cetera. Like it really is, it gives me a lot of patience with people. Like cause I, cause I understand your lizard brain right now is like pushing you full anxiety through this moment. Like you're not in control of it. I get that.
00:48:29
Speaker
It's because our ancestors in the past, when something bad happened to them, they had to be anxious and on edge to protect themselves. Yeah. And I think it just, yeah, I am very much more curious in other people's belief systems, things like that. And it makes you ask good questions. I think, like, I think fundamentally we are good podcasters or mid-level podcasters because we ask questions because we want to know information and we understand people.
00:48:57
Speaker
I think that's good. Systems too, right? Like we learned that in cultural anthropology. Like I was just thinking at Safeway, there's no posted signs that say like you have to push your cards this direction or like go in this way. Some places do, this place doesn't. So humans just kind of like figure it out. And like, if someone drops something, you're like, all right, I'll help them up. They're like, like that or I don't know, like the systematic culture and implicit culture is just interesting to me.
00:49:23
Speaker
Yeah, we always go on the right-hand side of the aisles, even though it's not defined. Because it's like a traffic lane thing. Huh. All the perishable foods are on the outside aisles, but the junk food and the carbs are on the inside of the aisles.
Podcast Closing and Credits
00:49:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:41
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. Well, I think on that note, we are going to end this lovely episode. This has been life in his podcast. I would not choose to live a life in ruins. David would not choose to live life in ruins. Follow us on the social meds. If you haven't read it and reviewed the podcast.
00:50:12
Speaker
Thanks for listening to a life in ruins podcast. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at a life in ruins podcast. And you can also email us at a life in ruins podcast at gmail.com. And remember, make sure to bring your archaeologists in from the cold and feed them beer. And we are here for the last little bit. Last little joke segment. I wrote this one myself so it is particularly grown full. So, you know, I really enjoy like helping out my friends. They always ask me like,
00:50:41
Speaker
what they can charge me. I just say it's pro-brono. I got one for you. Would you like some, uh, goat or some matter, baby? What's the matter, baby? And with that, we are out.
00:51:19
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Culturo Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.