Transcript
Speaker: This week we have our second interview with a Dutch surrogate mother.
Speaker: But before we begin, we do talk about miscarriages in this week's episode.
Speaker: If you're sensitive to the subject, you may wish not to listen.
Speaker: My name is Connor James, and you're listening to The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: The Daddy Issue
Speaker: This week we're talking to Sana.
Speaker: As well as being a surrogate, Sana is an educator and has a child from a previous relationship.
Speaker: I came into contact with Sana via svanger phone ander, which means pregnant for somebody else.
Speaker: The same group who linked me to Esfer from episode 6.
Speaker: I'm going to be honest with you, my head was not in the best of places when recording this interview.
Speaker: As Sana and I spoke, my boyfriend was in hospital, incredibly sick with the coronavirus.
Speaker: I'd spent the evening before standing outside in the cold for several hours, just in case he was discharged, after what began as back pain a week earlier turned into breathing problems.
Speaker: I decided to go on with the show, to keep my mind focused and stop it from scaring me.
Speaker: Kevin has since made a full recovery, but it took a long time and months of hard work just for him to get to this point.
Speaker: Okay, so you may be thinking, Conor, what has this got to do with parenting?
Speaker: Well, not a lot and also quite a lot.
Speaker: You see, when I came home that night, I wasn't sure when or to be more honest with you if I'd be welcoming Kevin home again.
Speaker: It was a terrifying and sobering experience.
Speaker: While we're both still the same people you heard at the very beginning of the series, this incident has shifted our priorities even more than the pandemic had already managed to.
Speaker: A lot of stuff simply didn't matter anymore.
Speaker: and still doesn't to this very day.
Speaker: The question of family however, well that remained important to us.
Speaker: We'll have to reflect on this later on down the road, but interviewing Sana, even if I was a little bit out of place in my own home, was an inspiring and grounding experience.
Speaker: Now I wish I could share everything that was discussed on and off mic, but if I did that for all of my guests, well, each episode would be 5 hours long and I don't think you'd enjoy that so much.
Speaker: So anyway,
Speaker: Enough about me, let's listen to Sana's story.
Speaker: Sana, thanks again for being on the show, and perhaps you'd like to tell us a little bit about yourself and what it is you do for a living.
Speaker: Yes, hi.
Speaker: My name is Sanne.
Speaker: I am from Arnhem, a city in the eastern side of the Netherlands.
Speaker: I work as a school leader in a special needs school, so children with severe disabilities.
Speaker: And I've been living in... I am originally from the Netherlands, but I've been back here for about four years now.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Where did you live before the Netherlands?
Speaker: I lived in England for four years and I lived in India for almost eight years.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: That's a really long time.
Speaker: I didn't know you lived in India.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: I'm kind of jealous now.
Speaker: Okay, so I was wondering how you become a surrogate.
Speaker: Is it something which you always wanted to do?
Speaker: No, actually, my first experience with surrogacy was in India because I used to see advertisements for egg donors and surrogates.
Speaker: And to me, that meant that this is something that women do who are in need of money because that's why women in India do it.
Speaker: And a few years later, when I lived in England, I
Speaker: I met someone online, a woman from the Netherlands, who was a surrogate for two men.
Speaker: And it was the first time that I realized, okay, you can actually do this because you want to become a surrogate.
Speaker: Yeah, so I guess in India, it's completely commercial.
Speaker: Here in the Netherlands, obviously, it's very different.
Speaker: I was wondering when you did decide to do this in the Netherlands, was it always your intention to do it for a gay couple, for example, or was it more something which you wanted to do for anybody who couldn't achieve natural childbirth, like regardless of sexuality or gender?
Speaker: Yeah, I started to get serious about being a surrogate back in England because one of my friends, a straight couple, she couldn't conceive.
Speaker: And that was the first time that I actually thought, well, I could maybe do it for her.
Speaker: At the end, she was able to conceive with a lot of treatments.
Speaker: And I subscribed with an organization in England called Surrogacy UK.
Speaker: And that was still, at that time, mostly for straight couples.
Speaker: And post-surrogacy was, well, the norm.
Speaker: So I signed up, I got a lot of information.
Speaker: And then Brexit happened because I knew I was going to go back to Netherlands.
Speaker: They told me, well, we can't help you then because we...
Speaker: Well, really want you to be in England.
Speaker: So that's when I subscribed at this Dutch forum called Zwanger for an Under, introduced myself and I got a message from a really nice guy.
Speaker: And when you spoke to them first, was it just to figure out how it worked in the Netherlands or did you already have an idea of how it worked?
Speaker: No, I had no idea at all.
Speaker: I subscribed because I wanted to find out more information.
Speaker: I quickly found out that the process in England is very different from the Netherlands because it's way better organized over there.
Speaker: So I was expecting almost somebody to send me a welcome package and to tell me exactly exactly
Speaker: where to go to and what to do.
Speaker: And none of that happened, though there was a lot of information shared online.
Speaker: And I was still living in England at the time.
Speaker: So when I introduced myself, I also said, well, I'm living in London now.
Speaker: I'm going to be moving to Netherlands, well, maybe in the next six to 12 months.
Speaker: So I'm not looking for
Speaker: anyone right now I'm just here for the information so the first message I got was exactly that like saying well hey welcome here and it's nice of you to even consider this and what is London like and absolutely nothing about surrogacy and that gave me a chance to take my own time to find out what I actually wanted
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And how did you go about finding out what you actually wanted?
Speaker: Did you attend some workshops here in Netherlands?
Speaker: For example, there is Mere dan Gewenst, so more than wished for.
Speaker: I know they're one of the biggest organizations over here.
Speaker: Or did you just talk to other surrogates to figure out how it all worked for them?
Speaker: How did you go about figuring out, this is something I definitely want to do, and this is how I want to do it?
Speaker: Mostly talking to other surrogates.
Speaker: I don't think I knew Mere dan Gewenst.
Speaker: And I had this picture in my head that as a surrogate, you should do a host surrogacy.
Speaker: That was the thing to do.
Speaker: And it was only because I started reading about other surrogates experiences that I actually questioned myself, like, why?
Speaker: Why shouldn't I go for straight surrogacy?
Speaker: Because it's way more easier.
Speaker: So it was very slowly.
Speaker: So I really started from, okay, I want to find a straight couple, a whole surrogacy.
Speaker: I have to go to a hospital.
Speaker: Slowly, slowly over the months, I started to realize, well, that's actually not what I want.
Speaker: I want to use my own eggs and do it at home in a much more natural environment.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So you chose in the end to do surrogacy by a home insemination.
Speaker: Correct.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So once you'd kind of decided then that I want to do, I want to be a surrogate and I know how I want to do it.
Speaker: I want to do it with home insemination.
Speaker: Did you then open up a conversation with friends and family or had you already done that?
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: Because that same guy who sent me a message that first day, we kept in touch.
Speaker: So I work in education, he works in education.
Speaker: So we were...
Speaker: chatting about that.
Speaker: He was just a very nice guy.
Speaker: And he and his husband were talking to another surrogate from Belgium.
Speaker: So he was telling me all about the process and I was very interested.
Speaker: And at some point I had moved to Netherlands and we agreed to meet up because we've been chatting for about six months at that time.
Speaker: And I went over to their house and well, it almost felt like I fell in love with them.
Speaker: I really liked them.
Speaker: They were such nice men.
Speaker: And I remember coming home at night and talking to a friend and telling her, you know, I feel really bad, but they actually hope they kind of break up with their Belgium circuit and choose me because I really, really like these guys.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: um so it was yeah like a friendship that we developed and they felt the same about me luckily so it wasn't pre-planned or anything and that's why i think it went so well because we we started from a friendship would you say that's maybe the most important component of this is having that you mentioned it's like falling in love but it
Speaker: I think it is, I've spoken to some other surrogates and they all say the same thing that when they found the person or the couple they were going to surrogate for, they kind of felt like they were dating again in this weird non-romantic way.
Speaker: So do you think that is like the most important part is having that relationship and that trust between both sides?
Speaker: Yeah, to me it is, definitely.
Speaker: And not something that I expected when I started this journey because definitely in India, but maybe even in England, the whole point is that you kind of like become pregnant, you give up the baby and that's it.
Speaker: And the experiences in Netherlands taught me that you actually develop a friendship for life and you actually are in a relationship for life.
Speaker: So once you'd decided together that you're going to have a baby, that you're going to be their surrogate, how did you then go on to develop this relationship further with the intended parents?
Speaker: And did it change once you'd kind of successfully got pregnant?
Speaker: Well, it actually took some time before we really started to try.
Speaker: I think the first time I met them was in August 2017.
Speaker: And then in December that year, we came together like
Speaker: officially we had had one date in between but in december we we had discussed our preferences and we had a really long talk about so what do you want what do they want and then we figured okay we really like the same things let's give this a shot we would meet up at least every month more often than not twice a month we would go on walks we would go
Speaker: do things together, have dinners together.
Speaker: I met their parents, they met my friends, and this easily took another eight months.
Speaker: We went camping together as well, just to make sure that we really enjoyed each other's company.
Speaker: Wow, that's really like dating then.
Speaker: So you spent almost a year, maybe more than a year, getting to know each other, meeting their parents and stuff.
Speaker: I guess really become kind of an extended part of their family as well, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: When did you finally decide, okay, let's do this?
Speaker: What was it that made that decision finally kind of happen?
Speaker: What...
Speaker: Prompted it was actually that I was still legally married to my, well now, ex-husband in India.
Speaker: And I had heard from my lawyer that the divorce papers would go through somewhere in 2018.
Speaker: So then we figured from June, maybe we could start trying for a baby because then for sure the divorce was going to be through.
Speaker: And in August, we went to see a lawyer because until that time, we hadn't even considered that, which was very naive looking back.
Speaker: But well, we were just...
Speaker: Well, it almost felt like we're still so in love and we figured like it's all going to be fine and who needs a lawyer anyway?
Speaker: And big mistake.
Speaker: I now know.
Speaker: So I think in August we went to see the lawyer in Amsterdam.
Speaker: And I think two weeks after that, I found out that I was actually pregnant because we had already started trying.
Speaker: So yeah, that was almost one and a half years after the first contact that got pregnant.
Speaker: Yeah, that's quite a long time.
Speaker: But I guess really important to know that relationship is a good one because you're going to be carrying a child for nine months and you want that to be strong.
Speaker: And of course, the divorce as well was probably very important because of how it works in the Netherlands.
Speaker: If you had been the surrogate and pregnant while still married, then your ex-husband would have also been legally the father of the child, right?
Speaker: Correct.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's something we definitely didn't want.
Speaker: Neither did he, by the way.
Speaker: But then you can't change the law.
Speaker: So he, well, he would have been the father and the child would have had his name as well as a last name.
Speaker: And we really didn't want that.
Speaker: No, and it's a lot of paperwork, especially if your ex-husband is in India.
Speaker: From what I understand, the husband of the surrogate has to then also formally declare that they did not recognize the child as their own.
Speaker: So the adoption process can go ahead.
Speaker: I'm supposing the lawyer already let you guys know about this.
Speaker: What did the lawyer advise your next steps should be?
Speaker: What she did is that she painted two scenarios.
Speaker: So one where I would still be married and one where I would be divorced.
Speaker: So she wrote down exactly what would happen.
Speaker: And it became very evident that it was so much easier if I were single.
Speaker: So she did kind of advise us to make sure the divorce was true before going on.
Speaker: But then, well, as I said, we were already trying.
Speaker: So it was a bit too late for that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So the advice is for anybody listening is please make sure you get legal advice before you start.
Speaker: Yes, definitely.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: Regardless of which country you're in.
Speaker: And I'm wondering, now that we've just talked about the whole divorce scenario and the extra layer of complication if a surrogate has a partner, does that mean that the majority of surrogates, at least from what you see, are the majority of surrogates in the Netherlands single?
Speaker: No, I would think the opposite, actually.
Speaker: Because if you want to go for a host surrogacy, they actually tell you that you have to be in a relationship.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: Because they think that if you're single, it's going to be too taxing on you.
Speaker: And so they actually want you to have a partner before you become a surrogate.
Speaker: I assume that is because when you're going through a process like IVF, the people providing the IVF have an obligation to make sure that everybody involved is safe and healthy.
Speaker: Because if anything wants to go wrong, then it could bounce back on them as well.
Speaker: And especially because I know in the Netherlands, IVF is even tricky for same-sex couples to access.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, or even worse, I have this hormonal disorder called PCOS.
Speaker: So my cycle is very irregular.
Speaker: And I did go to the hospital, see my gynecologist and asked her for some very simple medication.
Speaker: And when she heard I was going to be a surrogate, she said no.
Speaker: And not because she didn't want to give it, but she's not allowed by the hospital.
Speaker: Because as a surrogate for a gay couple, when you're trying this at home, you don't get any help.
Speaker: Like nothing at all.
Speaker: They won't even offer you simple medication?
Speaker: No, no, no.
Speaker: And I was very surprised because I know that they say there has to be a medical need.
Speaker: And I understand that legally or whatever the word is, two men don't have medical needs.
Speaker: But I was the person with the medical needs.
Speaker: So I figured they will give me the medicines, but no.
Speaker: So they treat it as if it's the intended parents who have the need and not the surrogate.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's really strange.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's funny you said that because the European Union have only recently, I think in the past three months, changed the definition of infertility to include people who can't have children because of their sexuality or gender.
Speaker: That obviously right now doesn't mean anything.
Speaker: That's just a European guideline.
Speaker: It's up to the individual countries like the Netherlands to decide what that means.
Speaker: But yeah.
Speaker: I'm hoping that at least that helps maybe nudge these things in a direction that makes it a little bit easier.
Speaker: But it's still crazy that they wouldn't give you some medication because you're a surrogate.
Speaker: Yeah, I didn't expect that.
Speaker: Me neither.
Speaker: So now that you're pregnant, at this point,
Speaker: Do you close friends and family know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I had told him from the beginning.
Speaker: I have a son who is now 10 years old, but he was six when I first started to really seriously look into surrogacy.
Speaker: So I told him already then and he was okay with it.
Speaker: I quite soon told my friends as well, my parents, my brother, some mixed reactions, especially my father found it quite difficult because he was like, so I'm going to have a grandchild who is not going to be my grandchild.
Speaker: And he found it very difficult to deal with.
Speaker: especially in the beginning but mostly people were very positive and how did you deal with that with your father then was it something which you just let time fix it or did you feel obliged to kind of explain it more to him like what the process was well i understood what his why he was worried and i did talk to him a few times but it was only i think after baby was born that he was okay with it and he was actually very very proud as well so oh it's great time yeah
Speaker: Yeah, so now that you're pregnant, I was wondering how did that immediately affect your relationship with the desired parents?
Speaker: Well, we were all very, very happy.
Speaker: I had called them up when I found out because I did the testing myself on my own.
Speaker: And then when I realized it was positive, I asked if they could come over and meet me at school with some fake excuse.
Speaker: And then I told them, well, there's something that I really want to talk to you about.
Speaker: And in Dutch, we have an expression like there's something bothering me, my tummy.
Speaker: And then I told them, well, it's that or actually I should say it's something nice in my tummy.
Speaker: And well, so they got the hint.
Speaker: They were very happy.
Speaker: They pretty much immediately told their parents.
Speaker: They were really happy.
Speaker: I told my friends, some of my friends, but then I was around six weeks and I miscarried.
Speaker: And that was really, really rough.
Speaker: And also something that we hadn't even thought about because you take such a long time to become pregnant and then finally your fairy tale is there and it goes wrong.
Speaker: It's like this shouldn't happen because, well, this was all planned and meant to be.
Speaker: Yeah, that's terrible.
Speaker: How did you guys then handle that scenario?
Speaker: Did you decide to take a pause and maybe go see a doctor or something before continuing again?
Speaker: Or did that take a while to get back into position where you guys wanted to start again?
Speaker: No, it didn't take a while because what it taught me, taught us, is that our bond was really, really strong.
Speaker: They were there with me for, well, every doctor.
Speaker: So they were there for me the whole time.
Speaker: They went to all the visits and it made us realize even more how much we wanted this.
Speaker: And it made me realize that I really wanted this because if at that point I would have felt even the slightest bit of, oh, thank God it didn't go through, I would have known that this wasn't the path for me, but it was.
Speaker: So quite soon after that, I think immediately after we had the clears from the doctors, we tried again.
Speaker: And then it was December, just before Christmas, when we had our second positive pregnancy test.
Speaker: And this time, did you guys wait a little bit longer before kind of telling people that you were pregnant?
Speaker: Or was that not really needed at that point?
Speaker: I think we did indeed.
Speaker: I think you get your first ultrasound when you're about eight weeks pregnant.
Speaker: It was Christmas holidays and I went to India.
Speaker: for my son to see his father.
Speaker: And in India, very luckily, you can just walk into any hospital, ask for the gynecologist and get some blood tests done.
Speaker: So you can see your HCG levels that show that you're pregnant.
Speaker: So I went into the hospital three or four times during those 10 days and I saw it rising really nicely.
Speaker: But then it was going up really fast.
Speaker: So the gynecologist said, well, maybe you should get it checked as soon as you get back from holidays because it might be twins.
Speaker: I was like, oh no, I'm the one of twins.
Speaker: So when I came back, the fathers had called the midwife and we went for the scan.
Speaker: It was just one and it was very healthy and everything was fine.
Speaker: And because we saw that with six weeks, we started telling people.
Speaker: Well, it's great that in the end it worked out.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And in India as well.
Speaker: So at least you had a nice, a warm, hot, a warm Christmas.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes.
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Speaker: Now, back to this week's episode.
Speaker: I guess this is when the relationship becomes maybe a little bit more intense, right?
Speaker: Because now, of course, you already have this really strong bond and it's only been stronger with time and challenge.
Speaker: Yeah, at one hand we became much closer because we were already seeing each other once or twice a month, but it only became more.
Speaker: Also because the first trimester I was quite sick, very tired, I had to get medication.
Speaker: So they came over a lot to even just do my groceries, do some cooking.
Speaker: stuff like that.
Speaker: We went to a lot of events together around pregnancy, which is really nice.
Speaker: We went on some course together so they could be there for me when I was giving birth.
Speaker: So that really intensified.
Speaker: But at the same time, there were very clearly two paths as well, because
Speaker: I was pregnant and I was looking forward to giving birth, but they were already much more ahead because they were planning the nursery.
Speaker: They were planning who's going to take care of the baby on which stage.
Speaker: They were thinking about the name and that's kind of like felt separate.
Speaker: I guess when you're pregnant for a child that is your own, then...
Speaker: you kind of go into nesting mode, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Whereas in this case, the intended parents, like, they go into nesting mode because they have the benefit.
Speaker: They're not carrying the baby, so they can start painting the walls and stuff already.
Speaker: If you woke up and you felt really sick, could you call them to come and help you out around the house?
Speaker: Yes, definitely.
Speaker: So very much a team.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: A small family unit, essentially.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, they lived about an hour and 20 minutes away.
Speaker: So it's not like we were next door neighbors, but they would all the time.
Speaker: Whenever I called them, they would come over even just for like 15 minutes, half an hour if needed.
Speaker: They've also taken Noah, my eldest, to stay with them for the weekend.
Speaker: So I could just relax.
Speaker: They've done all my gardening because obviously when you're pregnant, you can't do any gardening because of...
Speaker: possible cat shit that might be there and dangerous.
Speaker: So it really helped.
Speaker: And by that time, we were also a lot closer.
Speaker: So when one of the intended parents, his parents were, I think it was their 40th wedding anniversary, I was also invited.
Speaker: You become part of the family.
Speaker: You do feel like a daughter-in-law, but for a gay son, it's very strange.
Speaker: But their parents also said at some point, like, you do feel like our daughter-in-law.
Speaker: That's really nice.
Speaker: I guess also good to have that bond with the parents because they're going to be the grandparents and part of your world.
Speaker: So it's really nice to hear that for you, it becomes like a real sort of family-in-law, I suppose, just about the marriage.
Speaker: And speaking of then being pregnant, did you have to explain quite a lot to people when you were visibly pregnant that you were actually a surrogate?
Speaker: Yeah, very often.
Speaker: I mean, people around me knew, obviously.
Speaker: But whenever I met strangers, in the beginning I would explain it all the time because I was very, very proud.
Speaker: But later on I noticed that I stopped doing it because people react very positively.
Speaker: I've never had any negative comments.
Speaker: But at some point I got a bit tired of always hearing like, oh...
Speaker: That's so great.
Speaker: You're such an angel.
Speaker: You're amazing.
Speaker: And I was like, no, I'm just bloated.
Speaker: I'm fat.
Speaker: I'm pregnant.
Speaker: I'm, you know, I'm also just another human being.
Speaker: And I just want to get my hair done.
Speaker: And I don't want to talk about how amazing I am.
Speaker: So it might have been the hormones as well.
Speaker: So at some point I stopped explaining to everyone and anyone.
Speaker: that it was surrogate.
Speaker: I can imagine wanting to do that.
Speaker: It's obviously very different, but when you're gay as well and you explain to people when they say, oh, what's your girlfriend called?
Speaker: You go, well, I have a boyfriend and he's called Kevin.
Speaker: Then you always get the whole, oh, you're gay.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: I know somebody who's gay.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it just all becomes about that when actually, you know, you're just, you're the dentist or whatever, you know, you just want, you don't want to have this conversation.
Speaker: You don't want to have to explain to somebody what LGBTQ means when you're getting your hair cut, you know, like, I can totally understand.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So if we skip ahead then to the birth, I'm really curious to hear your labor story.
Speaker: You don't have to go into detail, but I'm wondering like, where were you when it happened and where were the intended parents?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I was supposed to give birth in the hospital because there were some small complications with my eldest.
Speaker: The hospital is about, I think, 20 minutes drive from my house and we were all prepared to go there.
Speaker: So the idea was that both the fathers would be there.
Speaker: My best friend would be there because I had asked her, I think even before I got pregnant, if she would please be there for the birth.
Speaker: And then we had a photographer.
Speaker: As well.
Speaker: So in the middle of the night, my water broke, and I called everyone up.
Speaker: And I think they were here around eight in the morning, but nothing had happened yet.
Speaker: So my midwife came to check on me and she was like, well, yeah, your water broke, but that's it.
Speaker: So it can take another 24 hours.
Speaker: So yeah, just sit around and wait.
Speaker: And we were like, okay.
Speaker: So because somewhere in my head, my first delivery went quite fast.
Speaker: So I had expected for this to go super fast as well.
Speaker: And we had this whole scenario that we would like run to the car and throw suitcases in and drive like that.
Speaker: To the hospital.
Speaker: And then we're just sitting there on a couch thinking, okay, so yeah, let's just wait.
Speaker: So we dropped my son to school and we went for a walk, went for another walk.
Speaker: Nothing happened, watched some telly.
Speaker: And then it was around 12 in the afternoon, so noon.
Speaker: And my son was supposed to come back from school again.
Speaker: So we were like, well, let's get some lunch.
Speaker: So I went to the supermarket.
Speaker: And suddenly I felt a bit like, okay, this might be the first contractions.
Speaker: So then I came home at around 12.30.
Speaker: I called the midwife.
Speaker: She came over immediately.
Speaker: She checked me and she was like, oh, you're like almost fully dilated.
Speaker: So no one's going to go to any hospital.
Speaker: You are going to stay here.
Speaker: We're going to do this here and now.
Speaker: So I was like, okay.
Speaker: I was nine centimeters.
Speaker: I actually ran down the stairs where everyone was waiting.
Speaker: I told them,
Speaker: we're staying home!
Speaker: And they were like, no, we've just packed the cars!
Speaker: I was like, unpack the cars!
Speaker: So they all came.
Speaker: Everyone came back inside the house and our son was born at 1.46, so
Speaker: About an hour later, he was out.
Speaker: So I'm always kind of joking that I'm still waiting for the bad contractions because it was super easy, super fast.
Speaker: Fathers were there.
Speaker: The midwife was there.
Speaker: A photographer, my friend, exactly how we had planned.
Speaker: Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker: And how does it feel if you compare it to when you give birth to your eldest son?
Speaker: How does it feel when you give birth to a child as a surrogate?
Speaker: Does it feel any different?
Speaker: It was a completely different birth, but that was mostly because my eldest was in India and the hospital, there was no way you could deliver at home there.
Speaker: So we were
Speaker: in the hospital quite early it felt like like a medical thing that you had to do because there's doctors all around and nurses all around and they put me like this protective cloth and everything and right after birth they took Noah away because they wanted to do some checkups and I think it took one and a half hours before I got him back so it was very different
Speaker: And with Jeppe, who is a surrogate child, he was put with me immediately.
Speaker: So I held him.
Speaker: I actually breastfed him immediately.
Speaker: It was all very calm and natural.
Speaker: And I think the first thing I noticed was that he looked a lot like my son.
Speaker: And even my best friend was like, oh, it's exactly Noah when he was small.
Speaker: And he was just the most gorgeous boy on earth.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The fathers went downstairs, they started to call everyone and anyone because they have to stitch you up and all gross details that I will not go into detail about.
Speaker: So once that was done and I had calmed down and he had had his milk, that was the moment that I actually handed him over to his fathers and that was the most beautiful moment.
Speaker: of that day and probably top of the most beautiful moments of my life.
Speaker: So I can imagine it's a really humbling and incredible experience to, I mean, I say I can imagine I can't get pregnant.
Speaker: So I can't, I guess I can't imagine, but I suspect it's probably really humbling and just so many emotions when on all sides, when you're giving the gift of literally giving the gift of life to somebody.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm very happy the photographer was there because she captured that moment beautifully because you can see the happiness at one hand but also the emotions because I was overwhelmed with happiness but also crying my eyes out because...
Speaker: suddenly hit me like I'm giving my child away it's my child it's it was very very emotional and it it's at the same time it was almost like formality is not the right word but like within five minutes I had him back because he was hungry and again and he wanted to drink so I came before others and then w hen he got hungry I had him back again so it wasn't like a definite thing
Speaker: Kind of like in the movies when a moment happens and then the music makes that cut noise.
Speaker: And it goes back to normal.
Speaker: I think that's actually a really interesting point to now go into.
Speaker: I was wondering kind of how your relationship then changed because you were quite involved, right?
Speaker: If I'm right, you were very involved in the first months.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: So we had agreed to do like the maternity week at the parents' house.
Speaker: So my son, my eldest son,
Speaker: got Lee from school as well so we could all go there so the maternity nurse was there so she did my checkups the baby's checkups helped the dads with everything and yeah I was taking care really well as well which was really nice so I wanted to pump milk for him so I did exclusive pumping it's called
Speaker: which takes a lot of time and effort especially in the beginning so I was mostly like upstairs resting pumping trying to get back to normal and the fathers were really busy with the baby so they were taught everything from how to give the bottle how to give bath how to dress how to make sure I don't know the bath temperature is right and everything that one needs to know and I
Speaker: tried really hard to stay out of that because obviously when you're a mom or when you're parents you want to give advice which I didn't want to do at all because they they did things different than I would have done but it's fine because they did things their way and they were doing a really great job
Speaker: I've heard that a lot.
Speaker: My mother taught me that if you do ever decide to have a child, and it doesn't matter how you have this child, if it's through adoption or surrogacy, that everybody is going to give you advice.
Speaker: And she said that the grandparents of the child will tell you that everything could be wrong because everybody has their own opinion.
Speaker: But it's also very interesting to hear that you kind of deliberately took that step, even though you're in the same space, to let the intended parents figure it out, kind of...
Speaker: But I think it was also because they gave me all the space that I needed.
Speaker: So if I said I really want to hold him now and I need to cuddle with him for an hour, it was fine.
Speaker: If I said like, you know, we first agreed that I would only like live breastfeed him for one or two times.
Speaker: At the end, I did it for the first 36 hours and they were fine with it.
Speaker: They were not...
Speaker: at all scared that I would get to attach or anything of that sort.
Speaker: So they really gave me the space and time to do everything at my own pace.
Speaker: And that has really helped me because I got that trust.
Speaker: I was able to trust them.
Speaker: That's it's fine.
Speaker: I think that's actually an important subject to touch upon because I,
Speaker: I was going to ask you, what if you decided at the moment of birth that you didn't want to have your child adopted by the intended parents?
Speaker: So I could have stopped the adoption for the second dad.
Speaker: The biological dad was already on the birth.
Speaker: So after I gave birth, I was a legal parent and the biological father was a legal parent at
Speaker: Custody was fully mine.
Speaker: So if I would have wanted, I could have maybe even kept full custody, though he could have thought that at court because he was the biological father.
Speaker: And then both of us would have had the same legal rights, but the second dad would have had none.
Speaker: So nothing at all.
Speaker: For a lot of parents, that's quite a scary aspect of surrogacy, right?
Speaker: What would you say to those people to help them feel more at ease, you know, like to help them feel not so obsessive over that risk?
Speaker: It almost never happens.
Speaker: And at the same time, a surrogate is at risk as well, because most surrogates do this because they don't want to have a baby.
Speaker: And in the same way, if they would have said at that point, well, sorry, second thought, we don't want this baby, I would have been stuck.
Speaker: Because I would have been the legal parent.
Speaker: I would have had custody.
Speaker: And at most, I could have gone to court and make sure that maybe I get some alimony.
Speaker: But that's it.
Speaker: So if they would have said no, I would have been stuck with the baby.
Speaker: So that's probably the easiest way to explain this to anybody who is concerned, is that the stakes are high on...
Speaker: both sides but that's also why you dated for more than one year to kind of build that relationship up and get that trust for you guys that wasn't a concern at all in the room because you knew each other so well and it's also why you need to get proper legal advice
Speaker: So even though we had an amazing friendship, we still have to this date.
Speaker: We did go to the lawyer.
Speaker: We had an extensive agreement.
Speaker: And our agreement also says that I will always have the right to see him at least once a month if ever the parents and I would get into a fight.
Speaker: But also that he would have the right to see me at least once a month.
Speaker: So there's also a clause that says that I can't just say, well, sorry, I gave birth to you and that's it.
Speaker: I mean, go on and live your life.
Speaker: It works both ways.
Speaker: Yeah, so if you're grown, then you agree to have one day a month of access to your child.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay, which is sometimes different because some surrogates choose just to leave that 100% to the intended parents, right?
Speaker: Yeah, but then we didn't think that was doing right by the child because a child, we feel, always has the right to know his biological background.
Speaker: And as I said, he looked like my eldest son.
Speaker: I'm sure that later we would have found out other things that maybe he inherited from my side of the family.
Speaker: And it just feels very wrong to deny the role of the biological mother because I am the biological mother.
Speaker: Nothing changes that.
Speaker: And I don't want to take care of him on a daily basis.
Speaker: But you can't just deny that I'm there because I'm there.
Speaker: I think that's also really important.
Speaker: You hear a lot of stories from kids who are adopted, for example, who really just have this urge to find out who their biological parents are.
Speaker: Maybe not even to meet them, but just to know, even if it's just a DNA test, like where they come from.
Speaker: So I think it's really important.
Speaker: And I guess it's just important that in these situations, the surrogates and the intended parents agree on something which works both ways for them, whatever they're most comfortable with.
Speaker: I have to say that also changed during our pregnancy because if I think back of our first agreement, for example, it says things like when it's Mother's Day, I don't want to get any gifts or attention because, you know, I'm not like a mother that's where you celebrate Mother's Day for and I don't want to be called mama.
Speaker: I'm just sana.
Speaker: and then after he was born that's very quickly changed because I had spent a week with them I went back to my own house and I think two days later I was going back to visit them and one of the dads actually told me that you know I was going to tell the baby Sanna is coming and he was like it felt so wrong it's like like you're some distant friend so I told him well mama is coming and it felt so much better and
Speaker: I was obviously full of hormones as well.
Speaker: So I cried and I cried.
Speaker: I was like, yeah, I want to be mama.
Speaker: So you guys chose to keep that name.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So then I was just like, fine, I'm going to be his mom.
Speaker: He has two dads and a mom.
Speaker: And well, that's what it is.
Speaker: And I also got a really nice card for Christmas.
Speaker: That's his auntie, who's also a childminder.
Speaker: She made it for the whole family.
Speaker: So she also made me a card with his baby feet on it.
Speaker: Very cute.
Speaker: So I was just, I had my place in that family.
Speaker: It felt natural as well, which I guess is the most important.
Speaker: That's really nice to hear.
Speaker: But I guess that's different for every single situation.
Speaker: And it depends just as much on the surrogate.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Correct.
Speaker: Because there's also definitely surrogates who don't want that, who very clearly say, I'm not the mother.
Speaker: I've just done the pregnancy and that's it.
Speaker: And that's fine as well.
Speaker: I think as long as you are honest with your child from the beginning, it's okay.
Speaker: So I guess as somebody who has gone through this process, I was wondering if there's anything maybe legally or societally that you think needs to change to help make these kinds of processes, these kinds of families make easier to happen.
Speaker: I wish the legal side would change, that surrogacy is part of some form of legislation.
Speaker: Because what I found very, very hard was when I had to give up custody, I had to sign a letter stating that I am emotionally, or I don't know what it was, but basically unfit to be a mother and that the child could potentially be in danger.
Speaker: and even though I knew that this was just you know part of the process it had to be done I found it really hard especially because I work in a school and I have seen parents who had to sign this and they well for whatever reasons they were really unfit and I'm not like that I mean I'm perfectly capable of taking care of a child
Speaker: But it's simply because the law states in Netherlands that you can't just give up your child.
Speaker: It's illegal.
Speaker: And I really wish that that would change.
Speaker: We didn't have to go to court.
Speaker: So that has improved already.
Speaker: Because I think a couple of years ago, everyone had to go to court and we didn't have to.
Speaker: So we filed all the paperwork.
Speaker: And again, two years later then, but...
Speaker: Sorry, one year later, just before Christmas, we got the paperwork from the court stating that custody had gone to one of the deaths and that the other one could adopt in three months after.
Speaker: So that has gone better, but the process itself is just not nice.
Speaker: No, and I spoke to another surrogate mother who will also be on the show.
Speaker: And she said the exact same thing about the having to declare yourself as an unfit mother, which feels really painful.
Speaker: And she said, even though she knew it was coming, when it does come, it just hits you in the face.
Speaker: And I think it's also really unfair on the whole family and family.
Speaker: in general, everybody in the future, because with this bit of court paper, it kind of erases what you did as a surrogate mother.
Speaker: It's not on the record.
Speaker: So when you look at this from a purely black and white point of view, it just looks like somebody gave up their child.
Speaker: It doesn't tell the real story.
Speaker: So I really hope that in the Netherlands and in any other country where it's similar, that this can be changed because...
Speaker: You're not an unfit mother.
Speaker: You are a surrogate mother.
Speaker: And I think it's an insult to not give you that recognition, at least on that bit of paper.
Speaker: And it's an insult to the future generations who, if they aren't told that this was a surrogacy, will never know because the papers don't look like that.
Speaker: I was wondering also if you have any advice to somebody who's listening who is maybe considering becoming a surrogate themselves.
Speaker: Just do it.
Speaker: No, that's true.
Speaker: Well, find a lot of information.
Speaker: There is the website, both Zwangervoerenander, as well as Meerdangewenst, are full of information.
Speaker: There's a very active Facebook group as well.
Speaker: There's a closed group just for surrogates, where there's lots of activity and lots of questions are asked and answered as well.
Speaker: And I think...
Speaker: You know, it's the most beautiful thing that you will probably do.
Speaker: That's what I think and what a lot of surrogates tell me as well.
Speaker: But it's also a lot harder than you imagine in the beginning.
Speaker: And it can be physically harder.
Speaker: There are surrogates who have a lot of physical problems during the pregnancy or even maybe during birth or after birth that you just don't think of because you want this beautiful life.
Speaker: fairy tale story but it doesn't always happen and emotionally it is hard and i think even if you want to do a host surrogacy even though it's not your egg there's still a baby inside you it's going inside your tummy it has literally like your blood and and everything um and i i really want to tell people don't underestimate and what about then on the other side people who are listening who are maybe considering
Speaker: fulfilling their wish to be parents with a surrogate.
Speaker: Same, don't underestimate the process.
Speaker: Pregnancy is beautiful, but it's hard on the surrogate.
Speaker: So be there for them every step of the way and take your time.
Speaker: I think when people, intended parents, join the Facebook group, they have already talked about this for months, maybe even years.
Speaker: And it's sometimes feel that they feel that now once we have introduced ourselves, now next thing you will know is that we'll meet a surrogate and then next month we'll be at the lawyer and the month after we'll be pregnant.
Speaker: But it doesn't work that way.
Speaker: Also...
Speaker: well realize that it might not happen sad as it is there are way more intended parents than their surrogates yeah it's awful but it's it's true and you know i understand why you might get almost desperate at some point but it doesn't help you at all because you you do not have to write to become a parent how unfair it is because it is unfair i think that's actually a really good point um that anybody who
Speaker: can and should be a parent if they're fit to do so, but that doesn't give you an automatic right to have a child.
Speaker: That depends on a lot of things.
Speaker: And in terms of surrogacy, it depends on if there's a surrogate out there who wants to carry a child for you, and that could be down to availability.
Speaker: There's a lot more people who want to have a child than people who are able to carry them for them.
Speaker: Or down to other stuff, which may or may not be in your control, but you shouldn't obsess over that.
Speaker: That's also why I ran away doing this podcast.
Speaker: Because we don't know yet if we want to become parents, myself and my partner, but it's very complex for us to become parents.
Speaker: And I think maybe in general, queer people are kind of used to this idea of not getting their hopes up, if that makes sense, because we live in a world which isn't entirely built for us.
Speaker: So we're kind of used to compromise, which is why I want to look at all these different options.
Speaker: But I think that's a really important point which you just said, which I think everybody should kind of take note of and remember is that even if you want to have a child, you don't have that right to have a child.
Speaker: Don't, that's not to say don't get your hopes up, but don't try.
Speaker: But I think it is important to note that when you are trying, just bear in mind that it might not work out, which I think is really important advice.
Speaker: To kind of take this in maybe a less emotionally beautiful path, I was wondering if you have any kind of advice for people who want to do this via surrogacy.
Speaker: what kind of financial obligations they should expect to meet because I think it's a question that a lot of people are scared to ask is the cost of this.
Speaker: Of course, it's different in prices based on if you go for something like IVF versus home insemination.
Speaker: But in general, would you advise... I don't expect you to give me a number because, yeah, this is so different.
Speaker: But would you advise that...
Speaker: intended parents at least speak to some experts to get an idea of what their chosen route is going to cost them and also kind of have some kind of uh understand that there are fiscal obligations well i think for host surrogacy if you go the ivf route um especially for gay couples there's only one or two clinics in netherlands who do that and they are very open about it that it will cost you around 25 to 30 000 euros
Speaker: Doing it at home is obviously much cheaper.
Speaker: You will still have to pay for any doctor visits.
Speaker: Most of that is free anyway, Netherlands.
Speaker: But like blood works have to be paid for.
Speaker: You are expected to pay for maternity clothes.
Speaker: Usually, and then parents also pay for some extras like getting a massage or very silly things like your feet grow when you're getting pregnant.
Speaker: When you get pregnant, so you need new shoes.
Speaker: And then there is an advice given to the government that surrogates should get an allowance of 500 euros a month.
Speaker: And that's still under debate.
Speaker: So they haven't accepted it yet as a law, but I think it's a good starting point.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I suppose that's also something which you need to discuss with the surrogate and find out what they want and what they're comfortable with.
Speaker: And then you can work out an arrangement.
Speaker: But I think it's good to know this stuff.
Speaker: I know this is obviously very specific to the Netherlands.
Speaker: People will have to research this a little bit more in their own home country if they're not listening from the Netherlands.
Speaker: I think it's very good to bear in mind.
Speaker: And it's something that I certainly want to explore later on in the series is the financial aspects of this.
Speaker: If you do that, please look into Eastern European countries as well, because they're cheaper, but they treat the surrogates horribly.
Speaker: So we like on the forum, on the Facebook group, always tell people don't go there, just don't do it.
Speaker: Because the agencies will tell you that everything is perfect and the surrogates are treated so well, but it's not reality.
Speaker: And also, legally, there's a lot of problems.
Speaker: So we've had cases that a child was born in, for example, Croatia, and it couldn't get home because the laws are so different.
Speaker: And people kind of forget that because, again, these agencies will promise you everything and anything.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think that's a really good point.
Speaker: And something which we've touched upon earlier in the series is that you don't want to make this journey if you're going to decide to go for surrogacy.
Speaker: If you're listening and you're thinking about surrogacy, it's not to go on a price comparison kind of hunt because this isn't like buying a car.
Speaker: You can't buy a baby.
Speaker: Of course, there's financial costs involved.
Speaker: But I think it's really important that people get the legal advice they need to understand what financial obligations they are and to make sure that when they're doing surrogacy, that they're doing it in an ethical way, that the mother is being looked after and not, for example, going to Eastern European countries where perhaps the rights of the mother and child aren't protected.
Speaker: There's a risk that the child ends up maybe in an adoption house because they're not able to travel home with the parents.
Speaker: So I think that's just something that we have to say on the show.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: So if you're listening, please do take advice and do not take the show as legal advice.
Speaker: Please speak to a lawyer in your own country.
Speaker: So I'm going to move on now to my final question for you, which is, can you explain for me what exactly it is that a surrogate gains from this experience?
Speaker: Wow, so much.
Speaker: For me, it started with just being able to be pregnant one more time, because I loved being pregnant.
Speaker: To be able to give birth one more time.
Speaker: And then it became so much more, because you make two people incredibly happy.
Speaker: And then after that, you realize it's not just those two people, it's their whole family, it's their friends.
Speaker: You make all of them happy.
Speaker: You...
Speaker: are pretty sure that a child is going to be raised by two people who have really thought this through, who want this child, who love it from the beginning, and everyone around him as well.
Speaker: It's a very humbling experience, and it's beautiful.
Speaker: I can't really put it in words.
Speaker: It's like a feeling of...
Speaker: of doing something great for the world almost.
Speaker: But at the same time, it's still only a small thing that you do.
Speaker: Sometimes it feels like just a small thing because you just want to make somebody happy.
Speaker: I think that's a really good explanation of it.
Speaker: Now, Sana, thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker: It's been an absolute pleasure getting to speak to you and getting to learn a little bit more about surrogacy.
Speaker: Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker: So thank you for having me
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: The current system is too vague.
Speaker: It works because people make it work, not because it's designed to.
Speaker: I mean, there isn't any design in the first place.
Speaker: Altruistic, regulated or commercial, surrogates, intended parents and the child all deserve and need a strong framework to keep everyone safe and healthy.
Speaker: The fact things manage to happen despite the lack of clarity in the Netherlands is only further testament to the work that outreach groups like Zwanger, Fornander and Mäden and Hvenst have done in the Netherlands.
Speaker: I really hope the Dutch government and governments across the world begin to move to help clarify the rights of queer parents and those who help them in a way which puts the health and welfare of everybody at the core of any frameworks which are created.
Speaker: Next week is the final exploration of surrogacy in the first series of the daddy issue.
Speaker: We're going to be talking to Sjoz about his experience becoming a father via the help of a surrogate.
Speaker: I'll see you next week and if you follow the show on social media, maybe even sooner than that.
Speaker: My name is Conor James and you've been listening to The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: The Daddy Issue is an independent podcast.
Speaker: Produced and presented by me, Conor James.
Speaker: Music by Willem Dubois.
Speaker: Fact-checking and editorial support from Emma Vogt.
Speaker: Our original artwork is by the incredible K-Toys.
Speaker: And a very special thank you this week for her time goes to Sana.
Speaker: We're available on Instagram at thedaddyissuepod, Twitter at daddyissuepod, and you can find us on Facebook too by searching for The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: So
