Transcript
Speaker: This week's episode of The Daddy Issue is all about raising a child as they transition.
Speaker: No content warnings this week, but we do discuss genitalia.
Speaker: So, again, if there's kids in the area, maybe you're glad you need to put headphones on.
Speaker: My name is Conor James, and you're listening to The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: The Daddy Issue
Speaker: When I started this podcast, I was particularly keen to share the stories of trans parents.
Speaker: Unfortunately, I was unable to complete an interview with one in time for season one.
Speaker: But while I was searching for stories for the show, I did get to meet Kirsten Fisser.
Speaker: Kirsten is a cis heterosexual woman.
Speaker: Cis, or cisgendered, means that Kirsten identifies with the gender she was assigned at birth.
Speaker: Kirsten's son, however, is trans, and I wanted to find out what it was like for Kirsten having to raise her son while helping him through his transition.
Speaker: Nowadays, Kirsten is a trans rights advocate, and through her platform, TransParents, she helps advise people, particularly fellow parents and their children, in how they can navigate transitioning together.
Speaker: Kirsten's son began his transition at a young age, and unfortunately, not every trans person has parents as supportive as Kirsten, which is exactly why I was excited to talk to her about her journey with her son and share their story with you.
Speaker: Kirsten is incredibly knowledgeable, honest, and passionate about trans issues.
Speaker: It was a pleasure interviewing her, so I know you're going to enjoy listening to our conversation and learning from her unique parenting perspective.
Speaker: Kirsten, thank you so much for your time today and being on the show.
Speaker: It's really great to have you here.
Speaker: I was wondering if you can tell me a little bit more about yourself and what it is you do for your work.
Speaker: Yeah, well, thank you, Conor, for inviting me.
Speaker: It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker: My name is Kirsten Visser, and I'm many things.
Speaker: I'm a woman.
Speaker: I identify as a woman.
Speaker: And I'm a mother of two boys.
Speaker: Well, boys.
Speaker: They're both taller than I am.
Speaker: They're 16 and 19 years of age.
Speaker: And I have my own business in which I give talks about
Speaker: about transgender children and being a parent of transgender children and everything that deals with those issues.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm really excited to get to talk about this with you today because it's an area which even in the LGBTQIA plus community isn't spoken about very much and it needs to be.
Speaker: I'm really excited to speak to you about this and gain from your expertise.
Speaker: I was wondering if we could start off maybe by asking you, how old was your son when he came out to you as trans?
Speaker: Well, it's, um, there were a few steps.
Speaker: It started when my child, then being my daughter, was three years.
Speaker: And we were outside and she was playing and suddenly she came over and she said, mom, when will I have my penis?
Speaker: And I just thought, well, you hear about these phases that children go through.
Speaker: So I just thought it was a phase.
Speaker: And I told her that she's a girl and that girls do not have any penises.
Speaker: Over the next few months, she asked the same question a few times.
Speaker: And I decided, well, it doesn't matter how you look.
Speaker: If you want to look as a boy, that's fine.
Speaker: And we really believed that...
Speaker: When our daughter would have puberty, the hormones would make her really change.
Speaker: And one day she would walk down the stairs in this really, really short skirt.
Speaker: But when she was nine, things changed.
Speaker: And it was about the fall when she would really change into this...
Speaker: big angry dragon of a child constantly fighting, fighting with us, fighting at school, fighting with her brother.
Speaker: And I knew something was bothering her, but whatever I tried, she just wouldn't tell until one morning, Tuesday morning, five minutes before we went out of school,
Speaker: She was having this huge fight again with her brother.
Speaker: I snapped and I did something which was really not good parenting, but I did it.
Speaker: And I just shouted in her face that I just wanted to know what was going on.
Speaker: And in the same way, she shouted in my face and she said, I'm a boy.
Speaker: And that moment I realized, okay, this girl won't be walking down the stairs in a really short skirt.
Speaker: There's something more going on.
Speaker: And that's the moment I realized this child might in fact be a boy.
Speaker: So it wasn't one big coming out.
Speaker: It went in stages.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And how did things go forward from then?
Speaker: Was that the beginning of things?
Speaker: Or was it also sort of a journey also for the family?
Speaker: Because I can imagine that everybody responds to this in a different way.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: Well, looking back, it was the beginning of what I call a journey.
Speaker: Of course, we went to our GP because you need referral from the GP.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And we went there.
Speaker: And at that time, there was a waiting list of one year.
Speaker: So that's the weird thing.
Speaker: You go there, you get this referral, and then you have to wait for one year.
Speaker: So technically, nothing really happens.
Speaker: Our child already looked like a boy, and nothing more happened.
Speaker: After a year, you get your first diagnostic talks.
Speaker: For us, that was in the Center for Gender Dysphoria in Amsterdam.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's the first step in what for us was an eight-year-long walk.
Speaker: And it's something you do as a family, I think.
Speaker: It's not only the transgender child.
Speaker: It's the whole family.
Speaker: I, as a mother, had my feelings.
Speaker: Her father had his feelings.
Speaker: And she had, still has, a little brother.
Speaker: So it's about a child, but it's about the whole family, I think.
Speaker: Did you often find yourself having to mediate between your children and your partner and other family members and friends?
Speaker: I have been the base of everything.
Speaker: I was the mediator.
Speaker: I was the counsellor.
Speaker: I was the one constantly checking in with everyone.
Speaker: Are you okay?
Speaker: Do you need something?
Speaker: Do we need to talk about anything?
Speaker: I think that's something most mums do.
Speaker: When we first met, you said that you kept it all about the child.
Speaker: I was wondering what exactly you mean by that when you say all about the child.
Speaker: I'm guessing you mean making sure that the child's needs are coming first in this case and that also making sure everything is falling around that as well and not getting in the way.
Speaker: Yes, there are two things about it.
Speaker: First, it's of course, as a mother, you look at your child and ask yourself, what does my child need?
Speaker: What can I do for my child?
Speaker: But it's also the world around us.
Speaker: Many people still look at transgenders in general, but especially transgender children, as some special object.
Speaker: And everyone looks at that person and forgets that there are people surrounding these persons who also have to deal with it.
Speaker: But everyone looks at just the transgender person.
Speaker: That's the outside.
Speaker: And as a mom, of course, but I had that on both children.
Speaker: You look at your children asking yourself, what do you need?
Speaker: What can I do for you?
Speaker: How can I be the best parent for you?
Speaker: Yeah, and you also mentioned suffering ambiguous loss.
Speaker: I was wondering if you could kind of define what ambiguous loss means for people listening.
Speaker: Yes, well, ambiguous loss is the sense of a loss when there's no death involved, really.
Speaker: If someone dies, there clearly is a loss, and that explains the mourning.
Speaker: But when there is no death, it's more difficult.
Speaker: A common used example is when someone develops dementia.
Speaker: That person that used to be there disappears during time, but the physical body is still there.
Speaker: And it's a bit the same with having a transgender child.
Speaker: Not every parent feels this sense of loss, but I did.
Speaker: And I know many others do.
Speaker: And it's the sense that I had a daughter and I had to let my daughter go because my child said, well, mom, I never really was your daughter.
Speaker: And I struggled with that.
Speaker: I felt a sense of loss and I felt I needed to rationally explain why I felt this loss.
Speaker: And I just couldn't until I realized it's not really the child you're losing, but somehow unconsciously
Speaker: I had this expectation in my head or expectation, just this idea of how my child would be growing up.
Speaker: And that just wasn't going to become reality.
Speaker: Not that that made my child any less.
Speaker: But somehow this idea unconsciously got into my head and that was what I lost.
Speaker: That was what I was mourning.
Speaker: Does that answer your question?
Speaker: Yeah, that answers it perfectly.
Speaker: This isn't something that only mothers experience, right?
Speaker: I can imagine that friends and family can also experience this sense of ambiguous loss when somebody they love is about to start or is going through a transition.
Speaker: Definitely, definitely.
Speaker: Not only mothers experience this feeling.
Speaker: And again, not every parent has these feelings and some have them
Speaker: more intense than others.
Speaker: And it's all fine.
Speaker: But mothers have these feelings.
Speaker: Fathers certainly have these feelings.
Speaker: But they are even less inclined to talk about it.
Speaker: But I also know that even, for instance, my mum had it for a brief period of time.
Speaker: It's also quite known that when someone is in a relationship, partners can really struggle with having, for instance, a wife who says, I am male.
Speaker: That can be a struggle.
Speaker: And often people on the outside confuse these feelings with not loving someone enough.
Speaker: And that is understandable, but it's wrong.
Speaker: Because you can't have these feelings if you don't love someone.
Speaker: It's all about love.
Speaker: And how do you then explain these feelings to the person who you have them for?
Speaker: How do you explain this to your son?
Speaker: Well, I did.
Speaker: In the period I was really, really struggling.
Speaker: I told him I was struggling.
Speaker: I told him that I felt this heartbreaking pain of losing my daughter.
Speaker: But that I had these feelings because I loved my child.
Speaker: And that I knew in my heart that he was a boy.
Speaker: And that I would support him any way I could.
Speaker: To me, it's like walking on two separate paths at the same time.
Speaker: And I always visualize them next to each other.
Speaker: The left path is...
Speaker: the well-being of my child and I'll do anything I can for him.
Speaker: path next to it are my emotions and they're just as valid so i explained to him that i had these feelings because i loved him and that i would support him despite having these feelings and we had some wonderful conversations about it and i also said to him i cannot ask you to understand my feelings
Speaker: It's just not possible.
Speaker: You are not a parent.
Speaker: You just can't understand.
Speaker: And that's okay.
Speaker: I am not a transgender.
Speaker: I cannot understand.
Speaker: I can try to, but I cannot fully understand how it is for you.
Speaker: And that's also fine.
Speaker: So we did talk about it.
Speaker: I thought it was really important that he understood...
Speaker: how I felt and that I loved him and we had some great conversations about it.
Speaker: So I do encourage parents I talk to about this issue, be open to a child.
Speaker: They can fully handle it.
Speaker: Express that you feel this way because you love your child.
Speaker: Yeah, it sounds actually, obviously it's very different, but when I came out to my mother, she also kind of was not upset because I was gay, but she was very upset because the idea of the son who was going to have a wife and this idea of what my future would be, that suddenly went away.
Speaker: And I know that that got her a little bit.
Speaker: And we did talk about it a little bit.
Speaker: And I think the original conversation, this was just me kind of being like a moody late teen.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And as we talked more and we learned more from each other, it kind of got better.
Speaker: But I'm wondering, obviously, my experience is with me coming out as gay and it's very different.
Speaker: I can't compare it to the experience of a trans person.
Speaker: But how did you cope with this?
Speaker: Was there any support out there for you and for your son and for your family?
Speaker: You know, the thing with grief is it's something you really have to go through.
Speaker: by yourself you can have people listening to your story but you really have to deal with it yourself and sometimes it might really feel totally overwhelming and we tend to run away when it feels overwhelming because somehow we're afraid we'll drown in our hurt yeah
Speaker: In my experience, you won't drown.
Speaker: So I just, I let the feelings be there whenever they came to the surface.
Speaker: So I cried a lot.
Speaker: I talked to people about it.
Speaker: And then I...
Speaker: started to think about how losing my daughter is such a big deal for me.
Speaker: What can I do to keep her in some form in my life?
Speaker: So for instance, I've talked about it with my son because I thought if he goes into ignoring his childhood years as a girl, that's not good for him and it's painful for me.
Speaker: So we both found a way so that he is not proud of all of it, but he can talk about his life in the years of being a girl.
Speaker: What he also did when he was 16, he got to change his name and to become man by law.
Speaker: I had this thing about losing his first name and I can't explain it, but somehow it was important to me.
Speaker: So I asked him if he would keep that first name we gave him as his second name.
Speaker: His girl name was Emma.
Speaker: And now as a boy, his name is Sietze.
Speaker: And his full name is now Sietze, Emma.
Speaker: And it was a tiny thing, but to me it made all the difference in the world.
Speaker: So it was letting the grief just flush over me and then look for ways how I can hold on to the girl I once had.
Speaker: But her father, he did it all alone.
Speaker: He grieved alone.
Speaker: And at some point he just, I don't know, just turned the switch somewhere and it was okay.
Speaker: It was done.
Speaker: Everyone deals with it differently.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess grief is so personal.
Speaker: It's so personal.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The only thing that's common, I think, is the need to talk about it and the need for someone to listen and to show compassion.
Speaker: I think that's the only common thing.
Speaker: Is there any advice you have for people who are maybe going through ambiguous loss?
Speaker: Anything which they should or could do to help them during that period?
Speaker: And also...
Speaker: help the person they're grieving for as well to understand it and to also not hurt that person because I can also imagine if somebody comes to you and says hey I'm grieving for your past identity that could also be seen as quite upsetting for the person who's trying to kind of move on.
Speaker: Well I can see what you say when it could be upsetting but I think it's wrong if it's upsetting.
Speaker: Because first of all, as a parent, you have these feelings out of love.
Speaker: Because if you didn't care about your child, you wouldn't have these feelings.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: I think as a parent, you should allow yourself to have these feelings.
Speaker: I think it's wrong as a child not to respect your parent having these feelings.
Speaker: It works both ways.
Speaker: As a parent, you fully respect your child...
Speaker: when he says, mom, dad, having these feelings, I'm dealing with this, everyone thinks it's normal that a parent shows respect to the other person having these feelings.
Speaker: But it can't be a one-way traffic thing.
Speaker: We're not living in those person's shoes.
Speaker: You may say, I cannot understand why you're having these feelings.
Speaker: Of course, I can understand that.
Speaker: You just have to respect, I think, some... I'm struggling a bit because I'm not sure if I'm saying it right in English.
Speaker: It's okay.
Speaker: But at first, as my child, he didn't like the fact that I was grieving.
Speaker: But he knew, he fully felt...
Speaker: that I loved him and I did everything to help him.
Speaker: So he never felt rejected.
Speaker: I think it only becomes a problem when the child feels rejected.
Speaker: I was about to ask you that I can imagine this is, as a parent, quite a delicate dance because I know that when I was a teenager that I was very quick to jump straight to conclusions over everything.
Speaker: And I know from experience with my younger sisters, when they were having a bad day, it was very difficult to get them to see my point of view.
Speaker: And that's because as a teenager, you know, you
Speaker: you're trying to figure yourself out and you don't have time for every else's opinion.
Speaker: But I can imagine it's really important that you speak to each other in a way which is respectful of one another.
Speaker: But I can also imagine as a parent, you have to also be a little bit careful and make sure that you have your pedal on the gas, but you kind of reading how your child responds, I suppose, to make sure that they are interpreting this in the way which you want them to, if that makes sense.
Speaker: Yes, definitely.
Speaker: Well, we live in this society where it's not normal for parents to show their emotions and feelings and discuss them with their children.
Speaker: There is this idea that we shouldn't burden our children with it.
Speaker: I disagree with that because I think by sharing, we also show our children that everyone has emotions, has feelings, even adults and parents have them.
Speaker: And we also show them how you can talk about them, how they can exist without any blaming on anyone.
Speaker: how they just can be there and how you can talk about them.
Speaker: And sometimes it's hard to talk about things.
Speaker: We also had a period when my son and I just couldn't talk about things.
Speaker: But communication is key.
Speaker: So I started writing notes to him.
Speaker: and lay them on his bed and then he would write the note back to me laying on my bed.
Speaker: And with writing notes, you can carefully choose your words.
Speaker: And as a reader, you get the time to process what's being said or written.
Speaker: I'm very open to my children.
Speaker: I'm also open to them when I am not sure about things, when I'm thinking things through and just don't know what to do.
Speaker: And I think that's also...
Speaker: absolutely key.
Speaker: We shouldn't handle our children as always keeping them quite little and protecting them from things.
Speaker: Be open to them.
Speaker: Tell them, show them you're also human.
Speaker: You're also struggling in life.
Speaker: You love them, but you do not always have all the answers.
Speaker: And still, some things can come out wrong.
Speaker: And nowadays, I see a lot of transgender people
Speaker: people saying my parents isn't accepting but when asking what are they saying what are they showing to you i often see parents struggling with their feelings and not finding the right words to express they love their child and they're struggling
Speaker: I think that's quite interesting you say that because as a child, and it wasn't until recently, I actually come to terms with the fact that parents are not some kind of dogma.
Speaker: Like God, which never makes a mistake or has a struggle.
Speaker: Because when you're younger, you think, oh, you know, when I'm older, then I will have life figured out.
Speaker: I won't have any more doubts.
Speaker: Everything will be very clear.
Speaker: Now I'm 28 now.
Speaker: And yeah, that's every year just gets a little more complicated for me.
Speaker: So it's kind of strange that when you're a child, you think, hey, my like my mom, she knows she knows everything about everything.
Speaker: And she has no doubts.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: And then as you get older, you go, hang on a minute.
Speaker: actually parents are humans and they have emotions and feelings.
Speaker: It becomes even more apparent when your friends become parents and you're speaking to them with a glass of wine and they're telling you about their stresses and problems.
Speaker: You suddenly think, whoa, this is not how it works.
Speaker: But yeah, I think it's really important to at least share some of that with your children so your children don't have the opinion that you are some kind of superhero that has no kind of vulnerability.
Speaker: Well, there's this children's program in the Netherlands and in Belgium, and it's called Mega Mindy.
Speaker: And this intro song is like, is it a bird?
Speaker: Is it a plane?
Speaker: No, it's Mega Mindy.
Speaker: I used to change that into Mega Mummy.
Speaker: I sometimes tried to make myself a superhero, but I always showed my emotions to my children.
Speaker: I wasn't always open about...
Speaker: what I felt because sometimes for things they're too little.
Speaker: So I remember one time coming home, crying.
Speaker: I showed my children I was crying.
Speaker: I didn't tell them why.
Speaker: I just said I had a headache, but there was something else.
Speaker: But I really am very compassionate about showing our children that we are also human.
Speaker: We do not always have all the answers and that's fine.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's pretty important as well.
Speaker: I really feel very compassionate about it.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's an important thing to be compassionate about because we learn so much of how we communicate our emotions from our parents because we spend so much time watching our parents communicate with us and with each other and with other people.
Speaker: And that really forms...
Speaker: our kind of core idea of how we represent our own feelings and emotions to other people.
Speaker: So I think it is really important as a parent to be open about that.
Speaker: It's something which if I ever am a parent, I'd like to also try and be more open.
Speaker: Being British, you know, maybe already the stereotypes of British society, we're quite tight-lipped.
Speaker: We don't like to show emotion very much at all.
Speaker: It's quite taboo, to be honest, to express your emotions.
Speaker: You have to kind of always keep a face for everybody else, which is just crazy.
Speaker: But it's also funny you mentioned about the notes.
Speaker: That's actually how I know a lot of my friends came out to their parents.
Speaker: And that's how I came out to my mother as well.
Speaker: I wrote a note because when you talk to people, it's easy to get scared as well.
Speaker: That's one thing.
Speaker: It's easy to change the subject and decide not to talk about it.
Speaker: But it's also difficult sometimes, like you said, to figure out how to form your sentences in the way the other person responds.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's funny when you said that about the writing notes, I think that's probably any LGBTQ listeners probably can resonate with that.
Speaker: It's one of the ways in which I think a lot of us first confirm our identities, even if it's just ourself, just by writing it down.
Speaker: It's really important because also when talking to someone, you have this receiving part that can respond anytime this person likes.
Speaker: Which can be problematic when you have this story in your head you just want to tell.
Speaker: And by writing it down, you can uninterruptedly tell what you want to say.
Speaker: You can think about the words you want to use.
Speaker: So writing is really, really important.
Speaker: Especially when it's difficult.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Especially then.
Speaker: Definitely, and especially now, I think it was in Corona time when our communication was already cut a little bit short.
Speaker: It's nice to just write stuff down.
Speaker: It's much more easier to communicate that way sometimes.
Speaker: And also, like you said, you can control your story a little bit more as well because you're able to...
Speaker: express yourself how you want to be expressed without the other person being able to cut in and there's nothing wrong with people cutting in it just when you're trying to express something and you're very you feel like this is a really important thing then i think maybe that's why a lot of people come out writing things down because they know they can control that narrative even if it's just that little sentence they know they have control of that and that the other person will read that in the way in which they hopefully intended i
Speaker: Well, I think especially with these emotional big topics, it actually is quite important that you can tell your whole story before you're getting interrupted.
Speaker: It's essential.
Speaker: Yeah, because that forms a huge part of your identity.
Speaker: And it's something that you really attach to.
Speaker: You don't want somebody to take it away or dismiss it, even if it's unintentional.
Speaker: And it's also about not interrupting makes you a listener.
Speaker: And it's important with everyone, but especially with children struggling with these issues, I think it's so important as a parent or anyone else that you listen.
Speaker: You let them talk until they tell you they're through talking.
Speaker: But you let them talk and you listen.
Speaker: fully listen.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that is one of the things which, especially in British society, we really lack.
Speaker: We have a saying in the UK, which maybe you've heard, which is that children are to be seen and not heard, which is basically saying, you know, you're a child, you shouldn't have opinions, just go and play and keep out of my way.
Speaker: But no, I think what you said is so important that if a child
Speaker: wants to express something to you and they have the ability to do that and they're willing to do it, then let them express it.
Speaker: It's important that they feel that they're heard and I think letting children feel heard from a young age is really empowering for them and will help them hopefully in the future be able to express themselves more to more people and make that ability even stronger.
Speaker: So moving on now to gender identity, I was wondering if you can explain what it is.
Speaker: Well, I think it's quite easy.
Speaker: When a child is born, that is the one moment when without any embarrassment, people are looking to see what is between your legs.
Speaker: And based on what we see, we decide whether you're male or female.
Speaker: Gender identity is about how we feel.
Speaker: Now, when I was born, I was identified female and I do feel female.
Speaker: So my gender identity is also female.
Speaker: My son, when he was born, he was also identified as female, but he feels male.
Speaker: So gender identity is the inside.
Speaker: It's how you feel.
Speaker: In the past, I've done some lessons at schools
Speaker: And then I would show them this old Bible and ask them, what is this?
Speaker: And they would, of course, say, it's a Bible.
Speaker: And then I would open it.
Speaker: And some people might object, but I'd taken all the inside out and filled it up with old comics.
Speaker: And I opened it up and I said, is it still a Bible?
Speaker: No, no, no, it's full of comics.
Speaker: So your gender identity is what you feel on the inside.
Speaker: And that can be, well, gender, we say binary, it's male or female, but your gender identity can be so much more.
Speaker: I was wondering if gender identity was something which you were familiar with before your son came out, or is this something that you learned, I guess, as a consequence of your child?
Speaker: I've learned so much having a transgender child.
Speaker: It's almost 10 years ago when we had this big Tuesday morning moment.
Speaker: And at that time, I really didn't know anything.
Speaker: I remember that day being the kids at school and me sitting behind the computer all day doing research.
Speaker: I didn't know anything.
Speaker: It's what I've learned over the years.
Speaker: And that's also why I'm quite passionate about telling about it, because I see that loads of people have no idea what it's really about.
Speaker: And I do believe that telling what it's about and telling our story helps people.
Speaker: people who have no idea accepting and embracing gender identity.
Speaker: If you're a straight person and you identify with your gender from birth, you feel I'm a cis man or a cis woman and your family are all straight, then maybe this is something which you never have to come across because you live in this world that we have, which is built on these kind of binary constructs.
Speaker: But that's not how things really work behind the scenes.
Speaker: And
Speaker: What you said about the child kind of being labeled based on its genitalia from birth.
Speaker: I was wondering how you feel also about kind of the increasing trends now of gender reveal parties.
Speaker: Like so much focus is now put on gender before the child's even born.
Speaker: I've been invited to gender reveal parties.
Speaker: I feel very uncomfortable with them because as a gay person, I feel that it's wrong to...
Speaker: put so much emphasis on the gender before the child is even born.
Speaker: Like I'd want to give that child the breathing space and let it decide for itself what it is.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: I'm not a real big fan of the gender reveal parties.
Speaker: I just, I think it's a high.
Speaker: But all in all, it also makes me laugh.
Speaker: A few days, the boss of my youngest had a daughter.
Speaker: And the minute I hear about someone having a boy or a girl, the minute I hear it, I just start laughing and think, well...
Speaker: We'll see about that.
Speaker: I once thought I had a daughter.
Speaker: It changed.
Speaker: We'll see about that.
Speaker: There's this weird thing going on.
Speaker: Yes, we more and more have gender reveal parties, but there are also more and more people, also young people, identifying as transgender or gender fluid, non-binary.
Speaker: So I guess in the
Speaker: upcoming years more and more parents will be dealing with a child that is not exactly how they once celebrated it to be yeah i'm most curious if um like doing this podcast
Speaker: I feel like I'm kind of speaking to one of the first generations of queer people who have been able to have children because we're at a point now where we can societally have children.
Speaker: So I kind of feel like the people I'm speaking to, queer parents are kind of part of this new generation.
Speaker: And it makes me wonder, especially when I speak to my younger sister, who's very open about gender and sexuality.
Speaker: She doesn't even bat an eyelid.
Speaker: And when I look at the children of this new generation,
Speaker: I wonder if they will celebrate gender in a very different way to how we celebrate it now, because hopefully they're going to grow up in a society which is a little bit more open and a little bit more flexible and a lot more fluid than the one which I, for example, grew up in.
Speaker: So I do wonder sometimes if this kind of gender reveal hype will hopefully kind of die down and will end up in a society where
Speaker: Of course, gender will always exist, but how we speak about it, I think, is what needs to change and how we deal with it.
Speaker: And people need to become more comfortable with the fact it's open.
Speaker: The importance, it's way too important right now.
Speaker: It's way too important.
Speaker: Today, it's International Women's Day.
Speaker: And earlier on, I had taken a walk with a dog and I've been thinking about it because many, many transgender women aren't accepted as women.
Speaker: And it got me thinking, who is anyone to decide for another person, whether this person is female or male or whatever?
Speaker: It's insane, really.
Speaker: There's only one person to identify what label you have, and that's you and nobody else.
Speaker: If you say that you're a woman or that you're a man or that you identify as neither, then it's none of my business to tell you what I think about that because only you have to live your life in your body.
Speaker: It's your experience.
Speaker: It's your life.
Speaker: And I don't think anybody ever has the right to tell somebody how to live.
Speaker: It's the same when I've told people that I'm gay and they say, oh, it's a waste, you know, and they mean, oh, because you're not going to.
Speaker: potentially have children and you think well that's yeah i don't think you realize how accidentally homophobic you just were then but it's i've heard some people like jk rowling the author of harry potter she's wrote some very um scary things about trans people refusing to accept that trans women are women which they are they are a woman fact and it's just baffles me that people still feel like they have the authority to tell people who they are
Speaker: We should embrace the person as the person who they are.
Speaker: And how to identify or who they love is of no business to anyone.
Speaker: It just isn't.
Speaker: And regarding to gender identity, there's one other thing.
Speaker: There's this idea that it's something that's fixed and won't change during your life.
Speaker: And that's true for many people, but not for all.
Speaker: And that's something that's a bit of an issue in treating transgender people, because there's this thing, well, what if you get any regrets?
Speaker: Well, people do change.
Speaker: It might happen that someday, I don't think so, but it might happen that someday in 10, 20, 30 years from now, my child decides he's not real fully man, but perhaps he's non-binary or he's gender fluid.
Speaker: That's fine.
Speaker: We cannot, people change.
Speaker: during their life.
Speaker: And we all accept it, except when it comes to gender identity.
Speaker: People change and it's okay if your gender identity changes.
Speaker: It's fine.
Speaker: I think that's really well said.
Speaker: No, this isn't an advertisement break.
Speaker: I'm not going to try and sell you a mattress.
Speaker: Yet.
Speaker: But I am going to ask you to rate and review this podcast on your podcasting app, as well as subscribe to the show if you haven't already.
Speaker: Not only will you get a little notification when a new episode drops, but you'll help increase our visibility too.
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Speaker: All of these links are available on our website too, which is thedaddyissue.org.
Speaker: Thank you so much for your support.
Speaker: Now, back to this week's episode.
Speaker: Speaking of identity and changes, I was wondering how you approached that transition with your child.
Speaker: Well, I'm kind of a one step at a time person.
Speaker: So it was just one step at a time.
Speaker: Just get the referral, get on a waiting list, one step at a time.
Speaker: And there are many steps.
Speaker: Between getting the referral and getting his mastectomy, so his breasts were taken away, there was an eight year span between those two moments.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So it is one step at a time.
Speaker: And is eight years kind of normal for that?
Speaker: Is there like a rule that they have to be a certain age before they can have any of these kind of surgeries?
Speaker: Yes, for surgeries, there's this age limit.
Speaker: Until recently, for oral surgery, the age limit was 18.
Speaker: But recently, provided some conditions, you can have a mastectomy when you're 16.
Speaker: That's just recently.
Speaker: All other surgeries are from 18 years and no surgery.
Speaker: And how long does it take to get hormone therapy?
Speaker: Well, I think for all children, it's a long phase.
Speaker: So eight years is, I think, quite normal for many young children.
Speaker: Mainly, in the Netherlands, you really first have to get a diagnosis before you can get any treatment at all.
Speaker: You can get puberty blockers if your puberty is identified in stages, tenor stages.
Speaker: If you're in tenor stage two,
Speaker: or more, you can have puberty blockers.
Speaker: From around 15 to 16, you can get hormone treatment.
Speaker: And for my son, that meant he got his testosterone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: When it comes to then the more permanent kinds of changes which can happen during the transition, is it quite difficult to get those in the Dutch health system, for example?
Speaker: The diagnostic phase is, I think, quite extensive.
Speaker: It can be from six to nine months.
Speaker: And it's what we call a gatekeeper.
Speaker: If you do not get through that phase, you cannot get any other hormone treatment.
Speaker: I also believe, based on our own story, but also on stories from other people, that they somehow seem to wait until the gender dysphoria is really big.
Speaker: For instance, we only got the puberty blockers.
Speaker: When my child really, really struggled with having breasts and menstruating.
Speaker: It was a real mental problem.
Speaker: And I really had to sort of get angry before he got puberty blockers.
Speaker: Before he got the hormones, testosterone, it was even worse.
Speaker: One day I was in the shower and he came to me.
Speaker: He said, mom, it was in January.
Speaker: Mom, do you think I get my testosterone this year?
Speaker: And I said, well, considering how things are going, I don't think so.
Speaker: And he said, well, if that's true, then I do not want to live anymore because I cannot handle waiting that long.
Speaker: Well, of course, that freaked me out.
Speaker: Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker: At that moment, again, I had to get angry before they decided for him to get these hormones.
Speaker: And that is something I hear from many other parents.
Speaker: I know treating transgender youth started 20 years ago in the Netherlands.
Speaker: I am proud it started in the Netherlands.
Speaker: But looking how things are at the moment, I'm quite concerned really about transgender care for children in the Netherlands.
Speaker: It sounds very reactive.
Speaker: Yes, it is.
Speaker: The treatment is a response to the individual instead of an assist for the individual, instead of helping them achieve these steps.
Speaker: It's waiting until that person is in a situation of,
Speaker: severe gender dysmorphia and then the system is stepping in to help them with a hormone or perhaps access to surgery or puberty blockers and that's quite that's that sounds very dangerous I think it's it's dangerous I think treatment is is there are things keeping it tight and one big thing is the fear of children having regrets and
Speaker: which is a bit silly.
Speaker: I can understand it, but it's also silly because we act like regret is something we can avoid and it's something that's wrong.
Speaker: But actually regret is simply something quite normal in life.
Speaker: And the other thing is, can someone oversee the consequences of their decision?
Speaker: Again, it sounds realistic, but there are many decisions we make in life when we cannot oversee the consequences.
Speaker: For instance, having children, you just simply cannot oversee the consequences.
Speaker: People talk about this in the media.
Speaker: The word regret, I think, comes up a lot.
Speaker: I've seen interviews where interviewees have been very disrespectful and asked a trans individual if they had any regret.
Speaker: And that word regret to me just kind of highlights that it's a phase thing again.
Speaker: Like, maybe this is really a phase.
Speaker: Maybe your feelings are just a phase.
Speaker: And that sounds...
Speaker: so wrong and so disheartening and so also just dangerous to tell that to somebody who really feels like they're a man or a woman and because that is what they are and then you tell them well maybe you regret it yes and um it's harmful because we act as if regret is something bad and it makes it even more difficult for the very very few
Speaker: who do have regrets on some parts for whatever reason, it makes it extremely difficult for them to talk about it, to acknowledge, I feel regret.
Speaker: Life is this big journey in which we develop through experiences.
Speaker: We all have regrets about one thing or another.
Speaker: It's part of life.
Speaker: We learn through regret.
Speaker: It's one of the core tools of learning.
Speaker: We do something and it backfires and we go, next time I won't do that.
Speaker: We're asking people for something impossible.
Speaker: And in the Netherlands, there are psychologists who diagnose and they say, well, we just want to be sure because it's really, really big in your life.
Speaker: And I can understand that when you're a care professional and
Speaker: some person you're treating has regrets, it's difficult.
Speaker: I can relate to that.
Speaker: I can understand.
Speaker: But it must not lead to a really cramped way of dealing with the issue.
Speaker: Yeah, and it sounds sometimes... I know these healthcare professionals have to have the health of the patient in mind, but sometimes it feels like their fear of regret...
Speaker: is kind of them putting their own feelings before their patient's feelings because they don't want to have to deal with any potentially negative consequences.
Speaker: So their way of avoiding that is just by not letting the thing happen in the first place or trying to stop it from happening as quickly as it could or slowing it down.
Speaker: And that to me just doesn't seem like a helpful thing in this situation.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: And there's one other thing about regret.
Speaker: When you look at regret in transgender care,
Speaker: I'm not exactly sure about the number, but I know it's below one percentage.
Speaker: When you look at other types of healthcare, for instance, the sterilization of a female, the percentage of regret, depending on age, lies between 6% and 20%.
Speaker: way above any number in transgender care.
Speaker: And we just accept it.
Speaker: It's fine.
Speaker: Okay, that can occur.
Speaker: So in other areas of healthcare, where there are higher levels of regret, we do not like it, but we accept it.
Speaker: But somehow in transgender care it's a problem.
Speaker: While in transgender care the levels are the lowest.
Speaker: It's weird.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it feels like the focus in transgender care should be the happiness of the individual, not regret, but getting that person to a place of hopefully comfort and a sense of being who they are in every sense that they need to feel that in order to feel like they are who they are, not being
Speaker: schooling them on what they could regret because i i'm obviously not a trans person but if you're going through things like medication or surgery then i'm pretty sure that these people have had a very long time to think about the consequences and for them there is no regret because they are compelled to do this and they're realizing themselves so it's it's not something which they haven't considered
Speaker: they have considered, I can imagine, most scenarios.
Speaker: And like you said, the percentage of people having any kind of treatment and regretting it is very low.
Speaker: It does seem just crazy that we obsess over it, especially when the people are obsessing over this, our healthcare providers, the media, and people who just aren't trans, who are dictating this for people.
Speaker: It just seems really, really... I can understand you have to be careful.
Speaker: I understand there has to be precautions.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: I see a danger of letting people who aren't a part of this community, the community of trans people, getting to dictate how that process works.
Speaker: Is there a system in the Netherlands where you've got like step one is hormone therapy, step two is puberty blockers?
Speaker: Is there any kind of roadmap for this or is it just a case by case basis?
Speaker: It's somewhere in between.
Speaker: It used to be really, really a roadmap thing.
Speaker: Go from step A to step B to step C. It is now in the process of getting more and more person to person.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So it's somewhere in the middle right now.
Speaker: I would like very much like it to be a person to person situation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because, for example, when you're gender fluid or non binary, you have other needs than when you really want to transition, like my son.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So it's starting to get more to person to person, but it's not quite there yet.
Speaker: Because I can imagine for your son, that would have been incredibly important if he had had some kind of personal relationship with a healthcare professional who could have told him what to expect and what the steps could be for him and how long those steps could take.
Speaker: Because then...
Speaker: he would have some transparency and clarity, I suppose, of how that process is going to be and not be asking you on a January morning feeling really low that like, when is he going to get his testosterone?
Speaker: Like I can imagine if we had these processes, which need to be tailored to every individual because every individual has very different needs.
Speaker: And that would help people at least have the, manage the expectations of when things can happen for them.
Speaker: They were there, the guidelines were there, but they were really rough guidelines.
Speaker: At that time, that January morning, he was 15, he would turn 16 the end of the year.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So I thought he wouldn't get any hormones based on, well, you're not getting 16 till the end of the year and only then they'll start talking about it.
Speaker: So no, I don't think it will be this year.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So there are guidelines, but they're really, really rough.
Speaker: And I do believe they should be looking at the child.
Speaker: What do you need right now?
Speaker: What are you struggling with?
Speaker: Instead of, well, you're not 16 yet, so you can't have it.
Speaker: They should be more like, okay.
Speaker: Because with my son, he was struggling because not only his classmates were developing, even his youngest brother was developing.
Speaker: And he stood still.
Speaker: Because that's what puberty blockers do.
Speaker: They just, they're this pause button.
Speaker: And they pause puberty.
Speaker: That's all they do.
Speaker: So he was in pause position.
Speaker: While the rest was developing and he was so jealous of them developing.
Speaker: It was too hard for him to see them develop while he just had to wait and didn't exactly know when to get them.
Speaker: Roughly, he knew because he knew when 16, he would be able to get them.
Speaker: But that's roughly, it needs to be more accurate.
Speaker: So then when he did finally get his testosterone, what was that like?
Speaker: for him and also for you watching your child kind of finally go through this transition which they've been waiting for for such a long time?
Speaker: When we started the transition, I was sort of afraid of that moment when the hormones would start because
Speaker: then his body would change and these changes couldn't be undone.
Speaker: But that's the funny thing about transition.
Speaker: As a parent, you also transition.
Speaker: So by the time that he got his hormones, I was just glad for him because I thought...
Speaker: time I had grown into the situation I saw that it made him so happy it's a date we even celebrate each year just between the two of us yeah nothing big just between the two of us but we celebrate it because it was such a wonderful day when that first shot went in and I remember him being really impatient because he
Speaker: Literally the same day, a few hours later, he was shining his legs with the light on his cell phone.
Speaker: Mum, mum, can you see any new hairs yet?
Speaker: No, it took me 28 years to grow a beard.
Speaker: I can relate to that frustration.
Speaker: And it's also unreal sitting there with this receipt, knowing that it's finally starting.
Speaker: I remember his operation, the mastectomy.
Speaker: I remember it was in this little operations center next to a shopping mall.
Speaker: Operating theater was upstairs, so he had been taken away.
Speaker: And I was standing there downstairs, looking outside, and I just couldn't comprehend that at that time something was about to happen, what we've been waiting for, for eight years.
Speaker: So these moments are amazing.
Speaker: They're so, so special.
Speaker: At least that's how we look at it.
Speaker: Really amazing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I guess you were there for every one of these major things from what you're saying.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: I've been everywhere.
Speaker: And I'm still with him on this journey.
Speaker: Right now, we have conversations over dinner about, well, mostly about the different surgical techniques on how to make a penis.
Speaker: And the pros and cons.
Speaker: And so over having dinner, we're talking about surgical options and how long with what surgical option the penis will be.
Speaker: And so that's the discussions we have now.
Speaker: And because we've done every step together, he also looks at me as his partner in thinking about what his next step will be.
Speaker: Yeah, I think partner is a very good word to describe a lot of parents, maybe especially mothers.
Speaker: And that's not to say anything negative to fathers.
Speaker: I'm just talking about in kind of typical heteronormative families, because I know, for example, my mother...
Speaker: had to become an expert in whatever it was that I decided at that moment was very important to me.
Speaker: Like she had to suddenly figure out if it was dinosaurs, she had to start reading them about dinosaurs.
Speaker: If it was coming out as gay, then she wants to know all about how all of that worked.
Speaker: And I think that's so important for making sure that, um,
Speaker: queer people feel accepted as well as when their parents take their wishes seriously and I can imagine obviously I can't talk from experience because I'm not trans but I can imagine for your son that was pretty incredible for him to have a mother who will talk about this with him because
Speaker: That's what I can imagine he needs is to have these conversations with somebody who doesn't just love him, but who understands him as well and understands what it is that has to happen.
Speaker: Well, I think it's my view on parenting.
Speaker: I am not a big monster, the big boss who tells them what to do or what not to do.
Speaker: I think it's my job to give them lots of love and help them grow up and become good adults.
Speaker: It's my job to help them, to be beside them, to catch them if they fall, to allow them to make mistakes and be there when they fall and to pick them up.
Speaker: That's how I look at myself as being a parent, as my job.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I have two sons, one's trans, one's cisgender.
Speaker: There's no difference between the two boys.
Speaker: I...
Speaker: handled both the same way.
Speaker: I listened, I helped.
Speaker: Sometimes you have to let them make mistakes to let them learn.
Speaker: So that's how I see myself as a parent.
Speaker: So for me, that was quite natural to do.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sometimes, you know, when I tell people that I'm interested in being a parent, so it's a little bit off subject, they always tell me about the unexpected and how like, oh, well, you never know what you're getting yourself into and it's going to be hard work and you're going to have to help them and you have to pick them up every time they fall down.
Speaker: You have to watch them fail.
Speaker: And that's the stuff that really attracts me to it because I want to...
Speaker: hopefully do my own mother proud by copying some of her practices and i i want to be there and help that young person develop if i do decide to become a parent that to me is the appeal um of parenting is is watching this young human uh like learn and develop and make mistakes and having to pick them up and dust them down at the same time maybe when the teenager has been the worst person in the world
Speaker: But back to the subject, when it comes to bottom surgery, which I believe is what it's called, is that something which the Dutch health insurance will help pay for if your child was to decide to go for that?
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: Bottom surgery is, as far as I know, covered by insurance.
Speaker: There's this trial now for breast implants for transgender women because that wasn't covered, but there's now a trial to cover it.
Speaker: But yes, bottom surgery is covered by insurance.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And are there any kind of limitations or rules on when such a surgery can occur?
Speaker: Do you have to live as that gender for X years or is it more case by case basis?
Speaker: No, no, no.
Speaker: Of course there are limitations.
Speaker: I believe it's a year you have to be living as that gender for a year or having had treatment for more than a year.
Speaker: I'm not quite exactly up to date on...
Speaker: on those terms because I know it's not an issue in our situation.
Speaker: He has lived as a boy most his life.
Speaker: He officially been a boy now for almost three years.
Speaker: He's had his mastectomy.
Speaker: So there's no doubt in my mind that that will be fine.
Speaker: Of course, his BMI has to be in between things.
Speaker: below 25, I believe.
Speaker: But that's also fine with him.
Speaker: And we're not really at that point yet because we're still debating...
Speaker: the techniques and the various complications which might come along.
Speaker: So we're also having discussions about why do you want this operation?
Speaker: What outcome...
Speaker: do you want from it and is that a realistic outcome so also urged him to get in touch with other trans men to talk about how they have experienced the operation and how has it turned out for them has it brought them what they wanted it to bring yeah or not because it's not just the surgery it only starts with surgery so that's difficult
Speaker: I can imagine there's a huge void when it comes to role models, trans men and trans women, who people like Yosun can look up to and get advice for on this kind of thing.
Speaker: Because I can imagine it's very difficult to find them.
Speaker: I don't think he ever looked for them.
Speaker: I know before he got on his hormones, he followed some transgender men online.
Speaker: None of them were famous.
Speaker: There were just a few people.
Speaker: And he followed them out of curiosity.
Speaker: They were always just two, three years ahead of him.
Speaker: And he just followed out of curiosity to see how do you administer testosterone?
Speaker: What changes in your body?
Speaker: And sometimes he would contact them with a specific question.
Speaker: But other than that, he didn't have any need for role models.
Speaker: Because he was just a boy growing up, periodically.
Speaker: So he was not exactly looking for role models.
Speaker: He was just looking for information.
Speaker: And he found the information he needed with the other trans men.
Speaker: And that's what I asked him to do now.
Speaker: Look for other trans men who've had the surgery.
Speaker: Because they are the best place to ask for experiences.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And he needs that information, above all other things, to come to a good decision.
Speaker: Because it's so important you make a decision such as this, based on as much information as you can get.
Speaker: And also exploring with yourself, why do I want this surgery?
Speaker: What do I want to get out of it?
Speaker: Because although they can create a penis, it will not function like the penis of any cisgender man.
Speaker: It just won't.
Speaker: So you have to be really clear on why you want it for not to be a disappointment.
Speaker: Yeah, and getting information, is that something which I assume the internet is fantastic at getting more information from because the internet has the answers to everything.
Speaker: Is there a kind of essential place where individuals who are trans or who think they might be trans can go to for this kind of information?
Speaker: Well, of course, we have Facebook with groups for people
Speaker: literally anything you can imagine.
Speaker: So also trans men.
Speaker: I haven't discussed this really with him.
Speaker: He found his own way previously without me.
Speaker: He found his own path without me.
Speaker: I'm fully confident he will do the same again.
Speaker: But I think if you want to easily find...
Speaker: a group, I think Facebook is the quickest way to do so.
Speaker: I was kind of wondering if you've considered perhaps what challenges your son might face if they were to decide to become a parent in the future, if that's something they decide they want to do.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Well, as it happens, he really, really desperately wants to be a father.
Speaker: When he was younger, I think he was about 15,
Speaker: We had a compulsory talk with a gynecologist.
Speaker: But at that time, being 15, of course he didn't want to be a dad.
Speaker: And he said, well, mom, I'm a boy, so no, I'm not getting pregnant.
Speaker: Of course not.
Speaker: The other day he came to me and he said, mom, I'm
Speaker: I've heard I can get my eggs harvested and frozen.
Speaker: And we talked about that and how they do it.
Speaker: And basically, he quite quickly told me that is not an option because then he would have to stop his testosterone and take loads of feminine hormones, which is exactly the opposite of what he wants.
Speaker: I know in the past he has asked his brother to be a sperm donor.
Speaker: Right now it's not really an issue, but it's a concern of mine.
Speaker: Yes, of course.
Speaker: It's like your mother had concerns about problems you might run into for being gay.
Speaker: I, as a mother of a transgender child, have worries about the difficulty he has.
Speaker: may face before he becomes a father.
Speaker: But I also believe that sharing my worries won't help him.
Speaker: I believe I have to help him in exploring possibilities, in thinking in possibilities instead of thinking in impossibilities.
Speaker: That's my role.
Speaker: And in that case, yes, I do keep my feelings a bit hidden.
Speaker: But that's because I want to help him and I don't think I'm helping him with sharing my worries with him.
Speaker: But I do have worries.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I know when having a relationship, a new relationship, it's always quite intimidating to be physically naked.
Speaker: I can only imagine how hard it must be for a transgender man having a vagina to be naked the first time with someone you love, to explore having sex.
Speaker: It must be so difficult.
Speaker: Sometimes it's a bit heartbreaking that he has to go through this.
Speaker: But it's not helping him, it's not helping me.
Speaker: No, and I guess one of the things that I think I've learned the most so far, and we're still very early on in the process of making this podcast, but one thing I've kind of learned in all these different scenarios where it comes to love and mainly obviously the subject of children, because that's what this podcast is about, is
Speaker: is that if somebody wants something, I think this maybe applies more to you and your son than maybe to most of us, but if somebody wants something and they're determined, then in the end, of course, there's always worries and there's always concerns.
Speaker: I have worries and concerns about if we do decide to have children, if it's even going to be possible, you know?
Speaker: But then again, at the same time, I think,
Speaker: If you want something and you want it bad enough, then most of the time you can somehow make it happen.
Speaker: And it's not worth worrying about the how right now.
Speaker: It's worrying about the how when it comes to when you make a decision.
Speaker: Because if you want something, then you can do it.
Speaker: It's just it's not easy.
Speaker: Of course not.
Speaker: But at the same time, yeah, I sometimes think, you know, I wish life was easier, but then there's no fun in an easy life.
Speaker: And easy life would be pretty boring, I think, as well.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sometimes it's the difficult things that make it worthwhile.
Speaker: You don't often tell your friends about how easy your day was.
Speaker: It would be a really boring conversation.
Speaker: But no, I can only imagine the challenges that he would face because I've seen the challenges which I face as a gay man.
Speaker: So I can't put myself in the shoes of a trans person, but I can imagine there's even more barriers and difficulties, like literal barriers and emotional barriers as well and physical barriers to making that happen.
Speaker: But I'm sure that, yeah, if your son does want to be a father, that somewhere or another, he'll figure out how...
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: One way or another, we'll get there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think determination is something which no trans person lacks.
Speaker: What is it that you would like for people listening to us talking right now to take away after this episode?
Speaker: What is it that you'd like them to kind of to keep hold of?
Speaker: Well, when it comes to parenting, first of all, I know you're making this podcast in...
Speaker: preparing yourself for parenthood.
Speaker: Well, I think it's an illusion.
Speaker: I don't think anything in the world could ever prepare you for parenthood, which might also be a good thing because otherwise I think there would be less children.
Speaker: Really, there's nothing which can prepare you for parenthood.
Speaker: But you know what?
Speaker: I don't think that's really necessary to be prepared.
Speaker: All you need is to be loving and accepting.
Speaker: I think that's key in parenting.
Speaker: And like I said, I fully believe in being a guide for your children.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: Listening to them, really talking to them, really listening to them.
Speaker: Be open about your own feelings.
Speaker: Show them that grown-up people also have emotions and feelings and can be as happy as sad.
Speaker: Show them how to deal with them.
Speaker: It's important.
Speaker: Show them how to be human.
Speaker: Treat them how you would like to be treated.
Speaker: So that's not one thing, that's a couple of things.
Speaker: That's fine.
Speaker: There's no such thing as too much advice, I think.
Speaker: And then what is it you would like people to kind of bear in mind or consider or educate themselves on when it comes to trans people and their place within our community as well?
Speaker: You know, sometimes I get the feeling, like I said before, most people have this
Speaker: vision on transgender people being some weird species.
Speaker: Sometimes I get the feeling that people forget that transgender people are people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just like you and me with lives, with feelings, with family, with doubts, everything.
Speaker: So first of all,
Speaker: Let's not forget transgender people are people.
Speaker: Secondly, I fully believe we should let go of any idea of gender, really.
Speaker: I think the impact on gender is way too much on our society.
Speaker: If we could only just look at people for who they are,
Speaker: not for the gender they have, not for who they love, just for who they are.
Speaker: I believe that would make a huge difference, positive difference in society.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't think I could have said that better myself.
Speaker: I think it's just so important that people remember that people are human.
Speaker: And I think a lot of people in the LGBTQIA plus community really need to take a good look at themselves because there's a lot of, there's transphobia everywhere, but it's very prevalent in our own community.
Speaker: And that upsets me a little bit because it shouldn't be that way.
Speaker: I think what you said, just people are human and treat people how you'd like to be trapped.
Speaker: And treat them as a human, as a person, because that is what they are.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: You do not have to like everyone.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: It's impossible to like everyone.
Speaker: But not liking someone, you can still respect them for who they are.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's something which I can relate to quite a lot.
Speaker: But I don't agree with everybody.
Speaker: And I know there's people out there who think that, for example, gay people shouldn't exist.
Speaker: I know there's people out there who have completely different political views to what I have.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: I respect that they exist and I don't preach to them about how they should live their life.
Speaker: And in return, I expect that they don't preach to me.
Speaker: But that doesn't mean that you have to try and derail a person or a group just because you don't agree with something.
Speaker: I think sometimes the most interesting conversations are
Speaker: is when you actually ask somebody, like maybe you meet somebody who's gay or something or trans and you've never met a gay or trans person before then.
Speaker: The best thing to do is just ask them some questions and get to learn about them as a person and not a label because that's what they are.
Speaker: They're not a letter in the alphabet.
Speaker: It's easy to see your differences.
Speaker: It's easy.
Speaker: It's far more interesting in a conversation to find the issues that
Speaker: you actually feel the same about.
Speaker: It's far more interesting, because that's where you connect with someone else.
Speaker: And if you just look at the differences, you're just looking at what's colliding.
Speaker: But it's far more interesting to look for common things.
Speaker: where you can find each other, common ideas, common thoughts, way more interesting.
Speaker: And somewhat side path, but I still like to say it.
Speaker: Many people confuse sexual diversity with gender diversity.
Speaker: Transgender diversity
Speaker: People, gender diversity.
Speaker: For instance, my son, he's a transgender man.
Speaker: This says nothing about his sexual diversity.
Speaker: Because the T is caught up in this line of letters.
Speaker: We think it's all the same.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But those two, sexual diversity and gender diversity, are two very different things.
Speaker: It happened to be heterosexual, but it could have easily been homosexual as a transgender man.
Speaker: I think that's often ignored.
Speaker: People just focus so much on the T for trans and completely ignore the fact that you can be trans and gay, bisexual, asexual, heterosexual.
Speaker: Your gender identity does not dictate your sexual identity and vice versa.
Speaker: So Kirsten, thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker: I've learned a lot.
Speaker: It's been really, really inspiring to get to know you and to get to hear more about your story and your son's story.
Speaker: And I really hope people listening are also just as inspired as I am and learn just as much as I've learned in our short conversation together.
Speaker: So thank you so much for your time.
Speaker: Well, thank you.
Speaker: I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker: Thank you very much.
Speaker: What struck me the most from Kirsten's story is just how much she learned from her son, and how much being a parent has changed her, and her outlook on the world.
Speaker: I feel like we often look at parenthood as an act of giving, when really, it's a two-way street.
Speaker: We can learn as much from our children as they can learn from us, and when we enrich them, we're also enriching ourselves.
Speaker: I will be talking to transgender parents in the future, and I'm really looking forward to getting to sharing their experiences of parenting with you.
Speaker: But you're going to have to wait a little while for that, as the first part of our journey is almost over.
Speaker: There's only two more episodes left.
Speaker: Next week, we're going to be joined by Ben, who is going to introduce us to the world of adoption in the United Kingdom.
Speaker: Thanks for listening.
Speaker: My name is Conor James, and you've been listening to The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: The Daddy Issue is an independent podcast, produced and presented by me, Connor James.
Speaker: Music by Willem de Boij.
Speaker: Fact-checking and editorial support from Emma Vogt.
Speaker: Our original artwork is by The Incredible K-Toys.
Speaker: We're available on Instagram at thedaddyissuepod, Twitter at daddyissuepod, and you can find us on Facebook too by searching for The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: you
