Transcript
Speaker: This week is the final surrogacy related episode of the season.
Speaker: Seolz will be sharing his story on becoming a father via surrogacy and it's a little bit of a rollercoaster.
Speaker: While recording his little boy was feeling under the weather so you may hear him coughing every now and then in the background.
Speaker: Now, before we start, just in case you're new to the show, this week's episode does contain references to reproduction.
Speaker: So, if you're in the vicinity of little ones, you may want to put some headphones on.
Speaker: There is also some discussion of miscarriage.
Speaker: If you're sensitive to the subject, you may wish to skip this episode entirely.
Speaker: You can find links to support organisations on our website, thedaddyissue.org.
Speaker: My name is Connor James, and you're listening to The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: you
Speaker: I'm not entirely sure how I came into contact with Sjoz, which usually means that it was via Sarah Costa, a guest from earlier episodes.
Speaker: Sjoz is a child wish coach, someone who helps guide people who are looking to or in the process of creating their own rainbow family.
Speaker: He and his partner Ard's pathway to parenthood was a little more complicated than most.
Speaker: They both found their calling to be fathers in very different ways.
Speaker: And their wish for a child took them down several pathways, each with different results.
Speaker: And today, Seos will be guiding us through each of them.
Speaker: Sjoors, thanks again for being on the show.
Speaker: And perhaps you'd like to tell us a little bit about yourself and what it is you do for a living.
Speaker: Yeah, great for having me.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: My name is Sjoors.
Speaker: I live in Utrecht in the Netherlands.
Speaker: I'm 30-something.
Speaker: I always forget what my real age is.
Speaker: After 30 and having a child, you kind of forget something on your grocery shopping or your age.
Speaker: So sorry about that.
Speaker: I am a kindermens coach.
Speaker: I coach people who have a wish for a child.
Speaker: specifically for surrogacy.
Speaker: So I coach and counsel intended parents, surrogates, and also people who want to donate their eggs to help with their difficult questions, both practical and socially or emotionally, to start this beautiful and complicated journey.
Speaker: So that's my job.
Speaker: I'm a board member of Stichting Meer Dan Gewenst.
Speaker: You can translate it to More Than I Wished For.
Speaker: We are a foundation for LGBT families, intended mothers and fathers, and we're committed to help lesbian, gay, men, bisexual, transgender, people who have a wish for a child, and we're a non-profit.
Speaker: So I'm a board member and responsible for all the activities we organize.
Speaker: Then I'm a volunteer for Zwanger for an Ander, Pregnant for Another, is the translation.
Speaker: the foundation for surrogacy.
Speaker: I'm together with my partner, Aart, and we have a son, Tom.
Speaker: He's two and a half and he's very beautiful.
Speaker: He likes buses and ice cream and food in general.
Speaker: He's very cute and he was born through surrogacy with a known befriended Dutch surrogate.
Speaker: So we just launched a little book for children.
Speaker: to tell them about surrogacy in a funny, loving way with bears who have a wish for a child.
Speaker: We are hoping to launch our book with our story, How We Got Tom in Our Lives.
Speaker: So yeah, that's me.
Speaker: Is this book really specific to your experience or is this something which other fathers in similar situations to you who have a child through surrogacy will be able to use to help explain to their children when they're pretty young, all about this like a complicated procedure that is having a child via a surrogate?
Speaker: Yeah, it's more like a diary.
Speaker: What we used to write off our thoughts and all the things that happened during our journey actually.
Speaker: So it's very personal, but I think intended parents and surrogate can learn lessons from it.
Speaker: What to do, what not to do, what should you do in this situation and everything that comes with it because surrogacy is not just something you do every day and it can be very complicated, both practical and social emotionally.
Speaker: So yeah, people can learn from it, but it is not manual, this book, how you should or do it, but it's more...
Speaker: for inspiration, how you can do it and how you can make your own choices based on our experiences.
Speaker: I was thinking that I guess this is a good time to step into your story.
Speaker: I was kind of curious about your decision to become a parent because when I think about my own journey right now as like a young guy, I'm in the space of like, hey, I think one day I would like to be a dad.
Speaker: I think.
Speaker: I think that's what I want.
Speaker: Not 100% sure.
Speaker: But was this something which you had previously considered?
Speaker: from quite a young age, is this something that came around spontaneously?
Speaker: Like when did the idea of becoming a father really enter your mind?
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That's an interesting question because my story is, I think not the most common story because, uh, at young age, I got cancer, uh, twice.
Speaker: So I was operated and, uh, yeah, it was very heavy.
Speaker: And actually the question if I survived it.
Speaker: So that was kind of, um,
Speaker: Yeah, kind of the reason that I thought it was difficult to plan my life further than one year because I wasn't certain if I would live.
Speaker: So my wish for a child was... I didn't know if it was there because I didn't have a perspective for the future.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: That was kind of difficult, but my boyfriend, he, from the day he could talk, wanted to have a tea party with his children.
Speaker: So he was, yeah, from young age, seeing himself as a parent, but yeah,
Speaker: When he turned out to be gay, he thought it would be difficult to have a family.
Speaker: But he always said, I would like to have a family.
Speaker: And during our relationship, yeah, that was kind of difficult because he wanted it really bad.
Speaker: And I just said, let's talk about it in a year or when we buy our first house or when I have a good job or when...
Speaker: Like one day when you hit that milestone, then there's always a new milestone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I find it very hard to actually find a milestone to have faith in my body to say, yes, I'm ready for a family and I can provide a certain kind of security for the family that there are two parents and not one and one who may not live long.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I searched for psychological help and medical help to define how realistic that chance was that I would live long.
Speaker: And all the doctors and social therapists, they helped me very good.
Speaker: And then I decided, yeah, I'm ready for it.
Speaker: And I have a lot of faith back in my body and in my mind.
Speaker: And let's go for it.
Speaker: When I was certain for my health and my body, I couldn't imagine a life without children, actually.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm sorry to hear about you being sick.
Speaker: I'm really happy to hear that you have got that faith kind of back.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Trust in your body to have a child.
Speaker: And I think that sounds kind of reasonable that you for people to think, hey, well, I'm healthy and I want to have a child because I know I'm going to be around.
Speaker: I'm saying that because we've talked with my boyfriend.
Speaker: And one thing that we worry about a lot is getting too old to have children.
Speaker: I know of course, when you're two guys, you haven't got ovaries.
Speaker: So you fell for a long time, but with this whole milestone thing, you know, we say, oh, let's think about maybe five years.
Speaker: Our current milestone is five years.
Speaker: We don't want to be like too old.
Speaker: We want to be like old dads because then, you know,
Speaker: Back pain.
Speaker: I don't want to be chasing a kid around at 45 around the park.
Speaker: I think it's logical that when you've overcome a tough time and an obstacle and when you've come to terms with it, I suppose, in a way like you're saying, hey, this happened, but...
Speaker: I trust myself and I can move on.
Speaker: That would also kind of trigger that, I think, that personal instinct a little bit to say, hey, you know what?
Speaker: It's time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I think what you also said really hits kind of a nail on the head, which I believe a lot of queer families experience, which...
Speaker: is kind of that extra pressure because we can't just get pregnant.
Speaker: We can choose when to have a child.
Speaker: And I feel that adds an extra level of pressure because you can say, oh, let's wait until we have a house or let's wait until we've paid our mortgage for five years.
Speaker: Okay, let's wait until X, Y, and Z. How old would we be?
Speaker: Oh, I don't want to be too old.
Speaker: Maybe my child will have like the oldest parent in the class.
Speaker: You know, all these weird things come to your mind where you start thinking like, oh crap, when is the right time?
Speaker: But when you did decide then, hey, let's do this, and I guess for your partner, that was maybe easier for him since he was already ready for this when he was having tea parties.
Speaker: Where did you begin?
Speaker: Where did you start this journey?
Speaker: Well, in that time, and I think it was eight years ago,
Speaker: surrogacy wasn't in the news, not that common.
Speaker: So only famous stars in Hollywood did that and in Netherlands I think adoption was the only accepted and common way of getting kids for gay people.
Speaker: So that was actually our starting point.
Speaker: So we would like to have a child.
Speaker: Let's go to the adoption agency because that is where you start and there are no other options, we thought.
Speaker: So we started to write a letter to the adoption agency.
Speaker: And yeah, then you are putting on a waiting list.
Speaker: So you have to wait for several months.
Speaker: And we are not that good at waiting.
Speaker: So we Googled a lot and we found a lot of stories of intended parents or surrogates, but also co-parenting and foster care.
Speaker: Then we got in touch with More Than Wished For, the foundation where I talked about.
Speaker: and went to an information meeting and that really opened our eyes.
Speaker: We started Googling further on surrogacy because we were very inspired by that construction because even before conception you can think about how the pregnancy is going to look like, how the role of the surrogate is in the life of your child and your family, everything you can cite before even starting to conceive a child.
Speaker: And that is, I think, beautiful.
Speaker: that you can actually tell your child if he has questions or if you'd like to tell him what are certain choices that you've made to get the child.
Speaker: And that was very valuable.
Speaker: So we found an online forum.
Speaker: It was, I think, the time before Hives and Facebook.
Speaker: So Facebook just popped up.
Speaker: And there were a lot of stories about surrogate who were...
Speaker: carrying a child or wanted to have a child through surrogacy or had carried a child for persons and a lot of intended parents.
Speaker: So sharing stories and learning from each other because there wasn't that much information on the government website.
Speaker: There was only the information that it was not legal to pay money for a surrogate or to advertise for a surrogate or that it is illegal to mediate as a third party with surrogates.
Speaker: So
Speaker: And we met a couple of intended surrogates.
Speaker: And we had a lot of funny conversation and not with the intention to have an agreement to start a surrogacy procedure, but just to learn from each other.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's kind of like, I think I've said this before on the podcast, but a dating experience where you go around and you're dating the ideas, if that makes sense, like the concept of surrogacy and... Sharing thoughts, yeah.
Speaker: I guess this is the only way, really, because you said about the government websites.
Speaker: I can confirm that the website is just as vague today.
Speaker: It doesn't tell you very much.
Speaker: It just kind of tells you what you can't do and then tells you to go to an independent non-profit organization for more information.
Speaker: Exactly, yeah.
Speaker: I was kind of curious actually about the adoption side.
Speaker: When you guys were thinking about adoption, just to take you back to that, I'm assuming at that point you were thinking about adopting a child from abroad or was it back then possible to adopt a Dutch child?
Speaker: Because these days it's more difficult to adopt a child in the Netherlands.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So in that time for gay people, it was only possible to adopt from abroad.
Speaker: So the USA was an option.
Speaker: Portugal was an option.
Speaker: South Africa.
Speaker: So in the USA, there was open adoption.
Speaker: So the carrying woman is picking the intended parents through seeing their profile.
Speaker: In Portugal, you have commonly more older children and multiple.
Speaker: So you have a girl from nine years old and her brother from seven and another brother from three or four.
Speaker: So you have multiple children.
Speaker: or South Africa, where most of the children are HIV positive.
Speaker: So it's pretty serious conditions.
Speaker: And in the Netherlands, there aren't a lot of children to adopt.
Speaker: So yeah, it's kind of difficult.
Speaker: Recently, there was a report.
Speaker: And in that document, they found out there were a lot of faults made in the history in adoption abroad.
Speaker: So adoption right now isn't open.
Speaker: It's closed for everyone.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess right now it is May when we're recording this and we don't have a new government yet.
Speaker: So we don't know if and when that will change, I suppose.
Speaker: But I think that's something that we will definitely look into in a later episode and maybe go into this report a little bit on the Dutch side to explain kind of what happened and how the Dutch situation is in comparison to international situations.
Speaker: Then if you go back to surrogacy then, so you guys are dating the idea of surrogacy.
Speaker: I don't know if that's the right term, but we'll use it.
Speaker: How did you introduce this idea to your family?
Speaker: I can't recall the specific moment.
Speaker: But we introduced our wish for a child on my birthday to our family.
Speaker: And it wasn't a shock for anyone.
Speaker: So they saw and experienced that we love children and children love us because they called me Klimrek.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: I'm kind of a toy for children.
Speaker: They climb on me.
Speaker: And so it wasn't a surprise for anyone.
Speaker: The point that we talked about surrogacy was actually, I think, that we found a surrogate.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: How did you find a surrogate then?
Speaker: Well, first we started chatting on the forum and we had very nice conversations with multiple ladies.
Speaker: And for example, one lady, she said, hi guys, I want to carry your baby.
Speaker: How much are you going to pay?
Speaker: So we responded, we are not paying you for carrying our child because that isn't legal.
Speaker: And another lady, she said, well, I'm 18 and I would like to have a child for my own for over a couple of years, but I don't know if I'd like it.
Speaker: So I want to have to practice with you guys to carry a child.
Speaker: So we thanked her for the idea, but...
Speaker: And also we had a very nice conversation with a lady and we sent pictures to each other, had nice conversation via telephone and WhatsApp.
Speaker: She should come over to us to have dinner.
Speaker: And we'd made cheese fondue.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a very Dutch thing.
Speaker: Very Dutch, yeah.
Speaker: Melted cheese.
Speaker: It's delightful.
Speaker: But we waited and waited and waited and she never showed up.
Speaker: So that was kind of heartbreaking because, yeah, we had a lot of hopes for this lady to maybe carry her child.
Speaker: And so we chatted with other ladies and we met else online.
Speaker: Else was a lady who had two children and would like to carry a baby for someone.
Speaker: So we got to a date in a sushi bar.
Speaker: It was really very awkward that evening.
Speaker: I can imagine.
Speaker: Yeah, there was a lot of tension and no one really knew what to ask or what to tell each other because we knew it was about surrogacy, but it was a very strange situation to imagine.
Speaker: talk to each other about that elephant in a room, in a sushi bar, and where to start.
Speaker: It's such a big thing.
Speaker: And you only have chopsticks as well.
Speaker: There's not very much to keep in awkward moments.
Speaker: Just chopsticks and some soy sauce.
Speaker: So it really does sound like dating, but people kind of catfished, if that's a thing, in surrogacy.
Speaker: And then you're in a sushi bar.
Speaker: But I'm assuming that you guys eventually managed to figure out
Speaker: how to approach this together?
Speaker: Yeah, so the first date was terrible actually.
Speaker: But on the way back in train, we texted to each other that it was very awkward and we were all very nervous.
Speaker: And I think that broke the ice that we had that in common.
Speaker: We started dating again and talked about surrogacy more, met her children and had very fun times actually.
Speaker: And one day she sent us a letter and in that letter she asked if we would like her to carry our baby.
Speaker: So that was very heartwarming and very emotional, that letter.
Speaker: And we kept it on the bedside for, I think, a year to when we wake up, realize it was real and it wasn't a fairytale dream.
Speaker: So, yeah, very special.
Speaker: And after some time getting to know each other, we decided to start with insemination.
Speaker: But was it not a step before the getting pregnant stage where you had to discuss like ground rules or anything like that?
Speaker: Like, did you guys just go straight into the, okay, let's get pregnant stage?
Speaker: Or was there kind of a period before then where you had to find each other's like red lines and borders and boundaries?
Speaker: Yeah, we got to know each other for a couple of months.
Speaker: And I think that's crucial to get to know each other very good because it's not about just chit-chatting.
Speaker: It's about difficult things.
Speaker: So what if there is something wrong with the baby?
Speaker: What if there's something wrong with a health situation of the surrogate?
Speaker: What if Art and I are separating during or after or before pregnancy?
Speaker: What if someone's going to die?
Speaker: There were a lot of difficult questions that you have to talk through.
Speaker: You can make concessions and you have to make concessions or you have to say what you need or what your fear is or what you want or not want.
Speaker: And that's very
Speaker: important and we found that pretty difficult because it's your deepest wish to have a baby in your in your family and there's just one lady that can give it to you that's it's how we saw it yeah because there are not a lot of surrogates in that in that are willing to carry a child for strangers so that's difficult to define your own boundaries
Speaker: and stick to them.
Speaker: Because if you have a fight, and I heard it from more intended parents, you can feel that if you are fighting with each other, that the alternative is to lose the surrogate.
Speaker: So you lose the...
Speaker: the possibility to getting a child and that is something that is important to take seriously.
Speaker: So we got psychological help from a counselor and that helped us to talk about the difficult stuff and that was for us very important but at the meanwhile we kept finding it hard to discuss the difficult things in our communication.
Speaker: And also we call her a family lawyer to help us in her journey.
Speaker: It's about a child and I think a child has to have legal security.
Speaker: Because I guess what you have, not even in theory, you can't even h ave a polyamorous relationship.
Speaker: Of course, you guys aren't in a romantic relationship altogether.
Speaker: but you are all together for at least the duration of this pregnancy.
Speaker: That's kind of like one, yeah, a fripple, I guess is the word that we use in English.
Speaker: So I suppose it's different to a normal relationship because in a normal relationship, you go through dating like you already did.
Speaker: So in some ways it's very similar, but...
Speaker: there isn't like the same kind of force bringing you together is very different.
Speaker: You're not being brought together for the love you've been brought together because you guys want to have a child and the surrogate she wants to give somebody that kind of gift.
Speaker: So I can imagine that for all sides that's a lot of tension but also difficult because
Speaker: We don't talk about this stuff in Western society.
Speaker: We don't talk about openly anyway, you know, stuff like miscarriages and abortion, for example.
Speaker: That's the first time, I guess, for all of you, you have to talk about this kind of stuff, all these if-else scenarios.
Speaker: Also, there's risks on both sides, right?
Speaker: A risk for the surrogate mother that they have to raise their child if the intended parents decide they don't want the child.
Speaker: What I'm trying to say is I can imagine it takes a long time to find that place where you guys all feel like we're doing it and this is working for us.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: How long did it take for you guys to really find your feet and feel like, okay, you know what, let's go for this then?
Speaker: Well, I think we got to learn each other for half a year, something more than half a year, where we talk almost every day via WhatsApp or WhatsApp.
Speaker: real life or email.
Speaker: In our free time, we jumped in the car and helped with her daughters or with the volunteer work that she did.
Speaker: So we talked a lot, a lot, a lot.
Speaker: And that was very great, actually, to get to know each other because some things aren't going to be the way you thought they're going to be.
Speaker: Some things are more emotional than other things or more heavy or complicated.
Speaker: So you have to go to a lawyer.
Speaker: You have to go to several organizations to
Speaker: let the procedure succeed and that's very difficult and sometimes it's hard.
Speaker: In a very short amount of time you have to get to know each other in a very intimate way I suppose because when you're with somebody for five years you understand when they say that they're okay and they're not okay you understand the body language, the voice and I suppose what you have to do in a surrogacy situation is
Speaker: is learn each other with that level of intimacy, but in a shorter space of time.
Speaker: I guess it depends because everybody has their own time scale.
Speaker: But over the course of maybe a year or two, because you're going to come across potentially some nasty situations where things aren't going to go where you want and you need to know each other well enough to be able to cope together to get through them, right?
Speaker: So you have the letter and you're deciding to get pregnant.
Speaker: I can't think of a nicer way to say that.
Speaker: Which fertility method did you guys choose?
Speaker: Self-assimination, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, so the first time we started to record her ovulations, the moment that she was the most fertile.
Speaker: And actually, that was in the middle of our holiday.
Speaker: So we went on holiday with our camper van to Rome.
Speaker: And we realized when we're in Milano, she is the most fertile.
Speaker: So we stored our camper van in Milan.
Speaker: And we flew back to the Netherlands.
Speaker: Oh my god, wow.
Speaker: and we did our first insemination.
Speaker: And after, I think, three days, we flew back to Milan to get our camper van and ride to Rome with it.
Speaker: When we got back, we did another insemination because she wasn't pregnant, and another and another.
Speaker: And actually, I think with the fifth insemination, she got a new partner.
Speaker: And her partner wasn't that enthusiastic about the surrogacy.
Speaker: So our conversation took a turn to kind of more heavy conversations and more
Speaker: difficult conversations.
Speaker: So that was difficult and we decided to go to social worker again to talk about it and we had a great conversation with the four of us about how to continue to see what the needs are, what we would like to have, what she would like to have and her partner.
Speaker: It was a great conversation which led to continuing
Speaker: It got even more complicated than you got from being three people to four people.
Speaker: Yeah, an extra dimension.
Speaker: So how long did it take then to eventually get pregnant, if you don't mind me asking?
Speaker: Yeah, of course you can ask.
Speaker: So we did one more try, one more insemination.
Speaker: We did that three times in one week to optimize the chances.
Speaker: But after the first insemination of that month, the next morning she texted us,
Speaker: I can't do it anymore.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I'm going to stop.
Speaker: Oh, damn.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it was that because with obviously having a partner, I guess it's more complicated, right?
Speaker: Yeah, we don't know.
Speaker: And we were actually blown away and devastated by that text message because we had that great conversation.
Speaker: We had faith and, of course, an enormous wish, the love that we would like to give to our child.
Speaker: And the chance wasn't there anymore.
Speaker: So we were actually devastated by that news.
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Speaker: Now, back to this week's episode.
Speaker: Your surrogate has decided, hey, I don't want to go through this anymore.
Speaker: Where do you go next then?
Speaker: Do you start all over again?
Speaker: Yeah, of course, we talked about it on a forum.
Speaker: And one of the other persons in that forum, Nadia,
Speaker: She carried a child before and she said to us, well, actually, I'm having the wish for carrying another time.
Speaker: So would you like to have a cup of coffee to talk about it?
Speaker: No sushi.
Speaker: No sushi.
Speaker: No, not sushi.
Speaker: And that was great.
Speaker: She lived in Belgium.
Speaker: So we went there and combined it with a nice weekend in Maastricht.
Speaker: And yeah, it was love at first sight, actually.
Speaker: It was a very heartwarming lady with a big smile.
Speaker: And she was very funny and
Speaker: enthusiastic about everything.
Speaker: So she was an experience as a surrogate.
Speaker: So that helped too.
Speaker: And we were also more experienced.
Speaker: So we talked about more on what we felt, what we needed, what we didn't want because that's difficult.
Speaker: We were more self-secure to ask those questions and to answer difficult questions from her in an honest way because that's very important to keep it honest and talk about the things you don't like and are afraid of.
Speaker: So Kofi went to lunch.
Speaker: Lunch went to her husband calling her where she was if we didn't abduct her or something.
Speaker: And he joined us too in the bar.
Speaker: And he was also great.
Speaker: And the first thing he said was, hey, you don't look like gays.
Speaker: Oh, no.
Speaker: The age old gay adult thing we all hear.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, we look all the same.
Speaker: So no, it was very funny.
Speaker: And actually, it was kind of love at first sight.
Speaker: But the only thing was that he wanted so the partner of Nadia, he didn't want her to carry a child with her own ex.
Speaker: So it has to be via IVF.
Speaker: But then we needed an egg donor.
Speaker: So now it becomes even more complicated.
Speaker: Yeah, we thought, oh my God, where do you find an egg donor?
Speaker: So in the meanwhile, we got to know each other very well and to start searching for an egg donor.
Speaker: So yeah, we thought that's going to be very complicated.
Speaker: But actually, we asked two ladies in our surroundings if they wanted to think about it.
Speaker: But they both didn't complete their family yet.
Speaker: So they thought it was difficult to donate their eggs, what is actually...
Speaker: Very logical.
Speaker: But one of those ladies talked to a friend of hers.
Speaker: And yeah, that friend, Sandra, she said, I would do that instantly.
Speaker: Without a doubt, I will do that for them.
Speaker: So that was great.
Speaker: And yeah, we got to know each other.
Speaker: And after a few conversations and dinners and wine, lots of wine, she said, I would like to donate my embryos or my eggs.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So that was beautiful.
Speaker: But then we needed a doctor to help us.
Speaker: You have a surrogate?
Speaker: Check.
Speaker: You have you have semen?
Speaker: Check.
Speaker: Egg cells?
Speaker: Check.
Speaker: Now we need a doctor.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: How did you find a doctor?
Speaker: Well, Nadia, she did it before via IVF in a private clinic in Brussels.
Speaker: So we went to Brussels to the doctor who helped us.
Speaker: And it was a very tense day.
Speaker: And it was a native French doctor.
Speaker: So he just mumbled something and didn't talk much and drew something on a paper.
Speaker: And actually, after, I think, 10 minutes of silence, he said, it went well.
Speaker: We're going to do this.
Speaker: So I'm curious then, because I don't know anything yet about IVF.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I know how IVF works in general.
Speaker: How long then does it take to have a successful pregnancy through IVF?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So you have to align both cycles of the woman.
Speaker: So both a surrogate as a
Speaker: the egg donor.
Speaker: One of the ladies should start taking the pill, the contraception pill, to stop the period and start when the other lady is getting their period.
Speaker: So the cycles are aligned.
Speaker: So in this case, you're not taking the eggs and storing them?
Speaker: you're taking the eggs at the right time?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then you have a lot of medication and hormones for the egg donor to stimulate her ovaries to create a lot of eggs at the same time.
Speaker: So not one per month, but...
Speaker: 10 in one month or maybe more or maybe less.
Speaker: So we actually got I think 13 or 18 eggs and we have to go to Brussels every three days I think for a period of two and a half weeks.
Speaker: So it was a period of sitting in the car, listening to the radio, chatting a lot, get to know each other in the car so you're driving a lot and working full time.
Speaker: It was very complicated.
Speaker: So most of the time I was sitting in the car with my laptop on my lap and just working my way to Brussels and back.
Speaker: So with hormones, she generates actually her eggs and they are getting surgically removed, the eggs, and they're placed in little cups.
Speaker: and mixed with the semen.
Speaker: So the eggs are fertilized and becoming embryos.
Speaker: They're putting all the embryos in an kind of oven and they look which embryos are growing the best.
Speaker: So the best quality.
Speaker: The best fresh embryo, they are transferring it to the womb of the surrogate.
Speaker: Okay, so only one embryo at a time?
Speaker: Yeah, so the rest of the embryos are putting in a freezer.
Speaker: You need it, you can defrost them
Speaker: And do you want me asking them how many attempts did it take to have a successful pregnancy?
Speaker: Because I know sometimes with IVF, it can take a couple of times until it works.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So we had a lot of embryos and we talked about what to do with all the embryos.
Speaker: Should we donate them or store them or give them to science or destroy them?
Speaker: What to do with all the embryos?
Speaker: And the first attempt of getting pregnant didn't work out.
Speaker: She wasn't pregnant and it didn't work out.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: We were kind of in shock.
Speaker: So why doesn't it work via IVF if you have more chance than naturally getting pregnant?
Speaker: Because there is an embryo and you don't have to let nature do it for you.
Speaker: So we did another shot.
Speaker: But then we did a frozen embryo and it didn't work out either.
Speaker: And yeah, we were also devastated.
Speaker: And now you have to wait a cycle to start again with the hormones and the circuit have to take hormones too.
Speaker: So how long does this take then?
Speaker: So every time this fails, how long do you have to wait until you can start again?
Speaker: You have to wait until she gets her menstruation.
Speaker: Then you can start after.
Speaker: You can start taking medicines again.
Speaker: So a couple of days more than a normal cycle because of the... And the third attempt, then...
Speaker: She didn't feel anything.
Speaker: So she didn't feel her boobs.
Speaker: She didn't feel nauseous.
Speaker: She didn't feel anything.
Speaker: So she said, I don't think I'm pregnant.
Speaker: And she was pregnant.
Speaker: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So yeah, we were so excited and so happy.
Speaker: It was so, so incredibly great.
Speaker: And we were thinking about buying things, the room for the baby or clothes.
Speaker: And we were actually planning our family from that moment.
Speaker: And then we had our first echo.
Speaker: And the woman who started the echo, she was very quiet while doing her thing.
Speaker: And she said, how many embryos were put back in your womb?
Speaker: We said, one.
Speaker: Oh, she said.
Speaker: So there wasn't a heartbeat.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So that third attempt then was also... Yeah, miscarriage.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm really sorry to hear.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that was another smack in our face.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We've had a few now.
Speaker: I think this is your third smack in the face, maybe.
Speaker: At least.
Speaker: So do you mind me asking, what do you do next?
Speaker: Well, we had to wait to the embryo or the fetus to come out.
Speaker: And that took some time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, we actually had some help to get the fetus out.
Speaker: So we have to wait, I think, a month or three or four to start again.
Speaker: And we talked about it.
Speaker: Should we continue?
Speaker: Isn't it too hard for the surrogate or for us?
Speaker: Or we all were determined and full of love to start again.
Speaker: So we started again, but we had to take a straw of two embryos.
Speaker: They're frozen in a straw.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So we had to decide, should she be pregnant of a twin?
Speaker: Can we do it?
Speaker: Because it is complicated for the surrogate.
Speaker: There's a chance that the twins are born too early.
Speaker: And two children are a lot of work, more than one.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a lot of babies to change nappies of.
Speaker: Yeah, but we decided that we should take the risk.
Speaker: So we did it.
Speaker: And the fourth attempt, she was pregnant again.
Speaker: And her hormones were actually double the level of hormones that you usually have when you're pregnant from one baby.
Speaker: We knew we are getting a twin.
Speaker: That was great.
Speaker: But then she started bleeding and heavily and she lost both of the babies.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Again, I'm really sorry that it failed for the second time.
Speaker: What do you do at this point then?
Speaker: Because I can imagine that I can imagine the doctor gets more involved now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: She got more hormones and we talked again.
Speaker: What should we do?
Speaker: Should we continue or not?
Speaker: But at this time we figured out that we did four tries to pregnancy.
Speaker: So there is a success rate, but
Speaker: Yeah, it filled twice.
Speaker: So there is a success rate that she is getting pregnant again.
Speaker: But when we talked more and more, we figured out that she and her husband talked a lot and she was willing to carry a child with her own eggs.
Speaker: So via self-insemination.
Speaker: So we consigned with it and we started to do self-insemination in Belgium three times in a week, every month for six months.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So, okay.
Speaker: So we're ditching the IVF now.
Speaker: We're stopping with that.
Speaker: And now we're going back to plan A, I suppose.
Speaker: And you're traveling to Belgium.
Speaker: How many attempts then did that take?
Speaker: How long did it take for a pregnancy then to occur?
Speaker: It didn't occur.
Speaker: So six months later, and we didn't have a pregnancy.
Speaker: And we had two embryos in the freezer that time, or two attempts.
Speaker: And we discussed it, let's do those attempts to see if that works.
Speaker: And then we have to have to stop actually, because it doesn't work.
Speaker: So we did both of the attempts with the embryos and no pregnancies.
Speaker: Okay, so now you have no embryos left, I guess.
Speaker: They're all used.
Speaker: So, okay.
Speaker: I wasn't expecting your story to take quite so many turns.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: You didn't tell me this.
Speaker: You can write a book about it, so we did.
Speaker: Yeah, now I know why you wrote the book.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Obviously, for you guys, I can imagine this just feels like the biggest punch in the gut.
Speaker: And I can also imagine for your surrogate as well, she's gone through a lot to try and help you guys.
Speaker: So it must be hard for her to go through this as well.
Speaker: But I suppose it's also maybe good for people who are listening to kind of know that pregnancy is actually very difficult.
Speaker: It doesn't always work out the first time.
Speaker: Okay, what do we do now then?
Speaker: Yeah, so it didn't work out with Nadia and it was very sad, both for us as for her, because she wanted us to have a family.
Speaker: She did everything she could and she has done everything she could to help us.
Speaker: But we didn't have a pregnancy or a baby to come.
Speaker: So we decided to start up again our adoption procedure, which we paused because we were busy getting pregnant via surrogate.
Speaker: So we started the adoption procedure again.
Speaker: We started a blog where we wrote about all our adventures, actually.
Speaker: what we're going through and what we are doing to inform everyone around us because it is something to tell to a lot of people every time.
Speaker: So to inform our friends and family and whomever.
Speaker: Also to create acceptance in the Netherlands.
Speaker: And we started also investigating a surrogacy in Canada or the United States.
Speaker: But both adoption and surrogacy in Canada or the US is going to have to take a lot of money.
Speaker: We didn't have the money.
Speaker: So we thought if we start a blog and people get to know us and maybe the media, we'll get in touch with the media, we can start crowdfunding to maybe get some money from there to continue our journey.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And with the blog, hopefully someone reads it.
Speaker: who has the intention of becoming a surrogate or help us finding a surrogate.
Speaker: And the last thing actually happened.
Speaker: So someone found us.
Speaker: So you make a blog.
Speaker: And you start documenting kind of your crazy journey that goes from taking an airplane from Italy to a hut in an Everland, to then driving to Belgium, to having like meeting people in cafes in Limburg.
Speaker: And now finally through the blog, third woman comes forward who would like to carry a child for you guys.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Simple.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Pretty simple.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that was Liana.
Speaker: And she had a complete family, so she has two daughters.
Speaker: And she loves to deliver a baby.
Speaker: She finds the moment to carry a baby and deliver the baby to the world very magical and intense and hurtful, but beautiful.
Speaker: And she was actually mourning about the fact that her family was complete and she wouldn't carry a baby anymore because she loves doing that.
Speaker: what is beautiful.
Speaker: So she already met intended parents and she dated with them, but it didn't work out with them.
Speaker: So she was experienced and she knew surrogates from the forum, which became a Facebook group.
Speaker: And she was very serious about that.
Speaker: And in that period, we drank a lot of coffee and wine with different intended surrogates or people who maybe were able to help us.
Speaker: So we figured, well, a cup of coffee can't hurt anyway.
Speaker: And also with Liane, we drank coffee and her husband that night had to work.
Speaker: So we wouldn't met him that evening.
Speaker: So we drove to her and she lives one and a half hour away.
Speaker: And we drank some coffee and we chatted.
Speaker: And it was also a very warm and inspiring and smart and beautiful woman.
Speaker: Yeah, with a great golden heart, actually.
Speaker: And we were very comfortable at the first moment with her.
Speaker: And yeah, also kind of love at first sight.
Speaker: And it just clicked.
Speaker: It fitted.
Speaker: Puzzles came together.
Speaker: And then we heard the door.
Speaker: And then her husband was home from working.
Speaker: So it was very late in the evening or middle of the night, actually, that we figured out, well, we're talking about...
Speaker: five, six hours.
Speaker: Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker: Non-stop.
Speaker: We were thinking alike and our thoughts were aligned.
Speaker: So it was meant to be actually, that feeling that we got.
Speaker: And then we started again getting to know each other and every free spare moment we had, we were texting or FaceTiming or driving to Drenthe and back and meeting each other.
Speaker: And it was a very warm period actually to get to know each other and
Speaker: So after some time, and I think seven months or something, we decided, yeah, our thoughts are really aligned.
Speaker: We think about everything or most of the things alike and the things we couldn't work out.
Speaker: We discussed it more until we had the moment that she asked us, what do you need for me to get to a yes?
Speaker: So it wasn't very romantical, but a little bit of practical.
Speaker: What did you need then?
Speaker: What was it that you needed?
Speaker: Yeah, we were actually shocked from the question.
Speaker: Well, are you asking us to carry your child for us?
Speaker: So we said, we have to think about it at least one night, but we actually knew from the moment she asked us.
Speaker: yeah, this is going to be wonderful.
Speaker: Well, the next morning, the first thing we did, or actually in the car, we said yes to each other and texted her, yes, we would love that.
Speaker: And yeah, the circle started again.
Speaker: So we started talking to a lawyer and got another lawyer informed.
Speaker: and started making the contract with all our agreements on paper to make it serious.
Speaker: And then after a couple of weeks, we started insemination.
Speaker: And which method this time?
Speaker: Self-insemination also.
Speaker: Can I ask again?
Speaker: How many attempts did it take this time to get a pregnancy?
Speaker: Well, the first didn't work out.
Speaker: And the second, we were actually very sick.
Speaker: We had a big, big fever.
Speaker: So we thought all the eggs she has are boiled and the semen is dead.
Speaker: There's no possibility that this insemination round is successful.
Speaker: From all the inseminations we did, this was far out the worst.
Speaker: So then it was Christmas and we were back on our feet again.
Speaker: And yeah, we went there just to test, just formality.
Speaker: So we went to Drenthe for a Christmas Eve dinner and she had a cup of urine on the table.
Speaker: before all the dinner was on table.
Speaker: And I think we need to let listeners know that's not a Dutch tradition.
Speaker: We don't start Christmas in the Netherlands.
Speaker: No, it's not a Dutch tradition.
Speaker: Start Christmas Eve with urine on the table.
Speaker: No, it's not a tradition.
Speaker: So we had a test and you have to dip your test in the urine and wait for three minutes.
Speaker: So you turn the test upside down.
Speaker: And we started the timer.
Speaker: And in the meanwhile, she said, well, we have to wait three minutes and I have a special gift for you.
Speaker: Just killed it sometime.
Speaker: And she got a small box and she gave it to us and we opened it.
Speaker: And it was a test.
Speaker: We thought, ah, this is a test.
Speaker: What's going on?
Speaker: And on the test, there were two markers.
Speaker: Which means pregnant, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: One control and one test.
Speaker: Who cried first then?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It was so overwhelming.
Speaker: And I'm starting to get goosebumps right now again.
Speaker: It was so not expected from all the attempts we did, from all the years of hard work, from all the surrogates and flying back and forth.
Speaker: This was actually the biggest surprise we could get.
Speaker: She was pregnant.
Speaker: She told us afterwards.
Speaker: So we hugged and we kissed and we laughed and we cried and
Speaker: All the emotions passed through the Christmas dinner.
Speaker: It was great.
Speaker: So she told us that she had sensitive boobs and she was nauseous and she had a little bit of headache and everything she had on her first pregnancies.
Speaker: So she knew actually before she tested, yeah, this is her pregnancy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So she tested and she surprised us.
Speaker: And it was great.
Speaker: It was very unexpected.
Speaker: And it was a great, great pregnancy.
Speaker: Yeah, it was a great period, nine months of fun and caring for her and caring for the babies.
Speaker: And we did everything we could to support them, managing their family around the pregnancy.
Speaker: And yeah, it was a magical time where we took her children out to go to the pool while she could rest.
Speaker: So I guess you kind of become one big family for that period.
Speaker: Yeah, two families within one family.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So it was very great.
Speaker: And then we could pick the date of the birth of Tom.
Speaker: And it was a very special day because she had pre-contractions during a couple of weeks.
Speaker: And the weekend before Tom was delivered, we would go to Drenze, to her house, to prepare things, to make the room ready, to clean up, to enjoy the last moments with each other without baby and with each other with Surgut and her.
Speaker: husband and her children.
Speaker: Calm before the storm.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: And then we had an appointment on Monday, the 20th of August, 2018.
Speaker: But the night before, she ran into her room.
Speaker: In the middle of the night, she said, it's not going good.
Speaker: I'm feeling terrible.
Speaker: I'm very sick and it's not going good.
Speaker: So we were very scared.
Speaker: She said, I've spoken to the hospital and we are going there, right?
Speaker: So we thought, wait, she has...
Speaker: pregnancy diabetes so the first thing we did was getting her stuff and something to eat and to drink with a lot of sugar in it give it to her and then we raced to the hospital where she felt better and then we had to wait and then it started she gone to labor yeah she was going to labor and it was it was very special because uh
Speaker: Yeah, nature is taking over slowly.
Speaker: So the contraction work chemically started.
Speaker: And at first it was minor, just, yeah, little cramps.
Speaker: But then nature took over slowly.
Speaker: And that was very special to see.
Speaker: And we were there with her.
Speaker: So her husband was at home with her child.
Speaker: So it was really the three musketeers.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it felt like that too, that we did it with the three of us.
Speaker: She started to take a shower to release some pressure, to relax some bit.
Speaker: And the contractions were heavier and heavier.
Speaker: And we decided that she would take a shower again.
Speaker: And I had my swimming shorts.
Speaker: Prepared.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I went to her to take a shower with her.
Speaker: And it was a very loving and intimate moment.
Speaker: Not sexually, of course, but very caring and loving.
Speaker: And I massaged her shoulders and helped her with her contractions.
Speaker: And then it went very fast and she could push.
Speaker: So after five minutes and two pushes, there was a baby.
Speaker: And it was actually as if time was standing still and
Speaker: Planets were aligned and it was flowers opening up.
Speaker: It was spring breeze.
Speaker: It was everything at the same time.
Speaker: It was really a magical moment that I cannot forget whatever happens.
Speaker: That was a little baby boy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: How, I guess, time stands still.
Speaker: I'm getting emotional now just listening to it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Me too.
Speaker: How can you even describe how it feels to finally the three of you all together to be holding your child?
Speaker: You've been on this long journey now.
Speaker: It's took a while.
Speaker: And you have your son.
Speaker: Is there a way to even describe that?
Speaker: No, there is no way.
Speaker: And you cannot explain it to people who haven't had that experience, I think.
Speaker: Yeah, it was so incredibly overwhelming and set everything in perspective.
Speaker: This was the most important thing and moment of our lives until now.
Speaker: So it was very great.
Speaker: And seeing the baby and realizing that baby was part of your life for the rest of your life.
Speaker: Yeah, magical how life is born.
Speaker: And the first thing was that Tom was on the chest of Liana.
Speaker: For the skin contact, it's quite important, I guess.
Speaker: Yeah, for, I don't know, we hadn't had a grip on time.
Speaker: It was totally away.
Speaker: So we thought it was beautiful that she had the first moment with Tom.
Speaker: She carried him for almost nine months.
Speaker: And we'd love the idea of her having the opportunity to say thank you to Tom.
Speaker: That was a very intimate moment where Art and I were overwhelmed by emotions while our baby lie on the chest of this beautiful lady who had done such a great thing.
Speaker: You have pictures of this as well, right?
Speaker: On your blog.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, we have a lot of pictures and it's just a beautiful moment.
Speaker: We'll put some links there as well, if you don't mind, and then people can also... Yeah, of course.
Speaker: Can see the moment.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So we finally got kind of like the happy... I said happy ending.
Speaker: It's not the end.
Speaker: The happy beginning, I suppose.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you have your son, Tom.
Speaker: I'm kind of curious now, how did you guys proceed as new fathers?
Speaker: Did Liana stay around to help breastfeed?
Speaker: Or was it very much kind of like, if you need me, I'm here.
Speaker: But you guys go do it yourselves.
Speaker: How did you guys navigate that?
Speaker: We love the idea of getting...
Speaker: to transfer Tom within the womb to us in our home as smoothly as possible because he is also in the womb he's used to the sound of the the girls of Barcelona he's used to the sound of the dog and maybe the light or maybe
Speaker: you don't know a smell or taste and also Liana and the girls and boss her husband they were used to to the baby and for all of them and all of us we thought it was the most beautiful to to let Tom go in a smooth and and a good way for everyone
Speaker: Yeah, so it doesn't feel like suddenly the baby's gone.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: If that makes sense.
Speaker: So we decided that the first week after the birth, we'd stay in her house with everyone.
Speaker: So it was full house with everyone.
Speaker: And we also gave her the opportunity to let her surrounding, so her friends and family, get to know Tom, that she could show him to the world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We found it very...
Speaker: important that she had the chance to do her story and get to see our happiness during that week and slowly transfer Tom to us.
Speaker: And that was very heartwarming and very special and busy.
Speaker: A lot of children and dogs and people who came.
Speaker: And then after a week, it was okay.
Speaker: So yeah, it felt okay.
Speaker: She was ready.
Speaker: We were ready.
Speaker: The girls were ready to claim their own surroundings again, to sleep in their own bedroom.
Speaker: And we decided to go home.
Speaker: So I'm curious then with Liana, do you guys decide to have her take on the name as mother?
Speaker: Like, did she want that?
Speaker: Or is it...
Speaker: Yeah, how is that relationship going to be as Tom gets older?
Speaker: At the start, we decided that the term mama wasn't the term that we would like to use because it implicates that that is taking care of the baby that is comforting it when it felt or that is having the daily responsibility about the baby.
Speaker: So we were actually kind of afraid that that was the situation.
Speaker: But during the pregnancy and during having all these experiences, we figured out actually mama or mother is just a term that you can fill in, the role you can fill in yourself.
Speaker: So you have, for example, two aunts.
Speaker: One is the loving aunt that gives you candy every time you come, that you have sleepover parties.
Speaker: And the other aunt, she's a total bitch.
Speaker: So they're both aunts.
Speaker: but both in a different way I was expecting you to say you have the aunt who's loving and then you have the cool aunt but yeah in every family I think there's someone you like and you dislike
Speaker: I will not comment on that.
Speaker: My family will listen to this.
Speaker: But they're both aunts, but in a total different way.
Speaker: And we figured out, let's keep it open.
Speaker: Let's keep it between the relationship of Tom with his mother and his mother with...
Speaker: Tom and also his siblings or half siblings.
Speaker: Let's keep it open.
Speaker: Let's see what's going on.
Speaker: Don't force the term to be picked or to be chosen by us.
Speaker: As we wrap up our interview, I have some questions on the financial side of this because you guys obviously tried surrogacy a couple of times and there are some costs there, but it's not major.
Speaker: But when it comes to IVF, I know that it's quite expensive.
Speaker: Is that something that you guys prepared for beforehand?
Speaker: Yeah, when we decided that we wanted to have a baby, I
Speaker: We knew that is going to take time and effort and money.
Speaker: So we started saving actually way before we started adoption procedure.
Speaker: We thought it is important that you do everything you can to provide the most secure base financially, emotionally, practically.
Speaker: So I love Excel and lists.
Speaker: I put everything in lists in Excel and my boyfriend is more the financial guys.
Speaker: And yeah, it costs a lot of money.
Speaker: IVF and traveling.
Speaker: This is not to make a financial analysis of surrogacy at all.
Speaker: After everything you've been through and where you are now, do you have any words of advice for somebody who's listening to this who is wanting to pursue kind of like a
Speaker: A journey to parenthood.
Speaker: Big question, I know.
Speaker: But what would you say to somebody like me who is kind of on this journey towards, hey, do I want to be a dad or not?
Speaker: Just to start, what you're doing, I think, is great.
Speaker: Just to let yourself inform with stories of experience from other parents, intended parents or parents or surrogates or people who are LGBTQ people.
Speaker: plus and having or wanting a family so that's great talking to people helps to set certain things in perspective I think and helps you to decide your own choices what fits with you so yeah listening to a podcast like this and reading things helps actually
Speaker: The second thing, what's also very important, is to get the information that you need and ask for help from a coach or a professional that can help you socially, psychologically, and practically, because it is a complex and emotional thing you have to go through.
Speaker: So someone who is looking with you
Speaker: over your shoulder to set you in the right direction or get both feet on the ground is important.
Speaker: Then it's important that you fix it legally.
Speaker: So before conception or before starting, go to a specialized family lawyer.
Speaker: That is the most important thing on behalf of the child and the way you're going to choose your route.
Speaker: Think about that the wishes you have or the things you are feeling that you're listening to it.
Speaker: So if you're feeling, whoa, this is not right, that you're going to listen to it.
Speaker: Why isn't it not right?
Speaker: What isn't right?
Speaker: Can I fix it?
Speaker: Listen to the positive, but especially the negative or the heavy thoughts or feelings you have.
Speaker: Discuss it with your spouse or therapist or a coach or people in your surroundings.
Speaker: I won't keep you any longer because I know you need to go and take care of the little one.
Speaker: But I want to just say thank you.
Speaker: It's been a little bit more of a rollercoaster than I think.
Speaker: I anticipated, but I just want to say it's really inspiring to hear your story.
Speaker: And I'm really honored to hear it as well.
Speaker: And I'm really honored that you've been so...
Speaker: open with me and for people listening to the show.
Speaker: I hope that people can learn a lot from this.
Speaker: And I'm glad that we get to talk a little bit about the reality of this as well.
Speaker: We're not just telling fairytale stories.
Speaker: There is a fairytale story.
Speaker: You're living it right now, but sometimes it takes a little bit longer to get there.
Speaker: So I just want to thank you so much for sharing your story with me.
Speaker: and everybody who listens to the show.
Speaker: I hope we can talk again soon about the coaching side in the future, but I just want to say thank you.
Speaker: Yeah, great.
Speaker: Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker: It's been a pleasure to tell you the story and other listeners.
Speaker: And indeed what you say, it's not all fairy tale.
Speaker: Sometimes it's getting raw.
Speaker: And by telling the story, I want to inform people to inform yourself for starting.
Speaker: And that's also why I started working as a kindergarten coach or a child wish coach that I want to do something with my experiences and my background just to help people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It makes a lot of sense.
Speaker: Now I know your story, why you do the job that you do.
Speaker: And I think that probably makes you a very good kinder events coach, so child wish coach.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: It's very nice.
Speaker: I really hope we can talk about that soon again in the future.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, thank you very much.
Speaker: It was an absolute pleasure getting to talk to you.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: Well, have a great day and wish you a lot of success editing and with your dream.
Speaker: Seol's story caught me off guard.
Speaker: Now, I've been caught off guard before in interviews, but I genuinely had no idea his story to fatherhood was as complicated as it was until I interviewed him.
Speaker: After alcohol, I shut my laptop and sat in silence for a little while.
Speaker: When my partner Kevin asked how it went, heavy was the only word I could think of.
Speaker: His story was a reminder of how difficult reproduction can be.
Speaker: How, even if you can afford to conceive a child via IVF, there is no guarantee it'll succeed.
Speaker: Science is incredible.
Speaker: But I'm sure I'm not alone in being naive enough to have forgotten that mother nature always has the upper hand.
Speaker: So your story inspired me, and was a slap across the face at the same time.
Speaker: Could I go through what he, his partner, and their surrogates went through?
Speaker: Could Kevin?
Speaker: To be honest, I don't know if we could.
Speaker: But I guess that doesn't mean anything anyway, because this process of having a child is complicated.
Speaker: It's emotional.
Speaker: It's difficult.
Speaker: And even now, after hearing everything that I've heard, I would be lying if I told you I knew what I wanted or how I'd respond to a hypothetical roadblock, challenge, or complication.
Speaker: I don't think you can ever know.
Speaker: At least, not until you get there yourself.
Speaker: What I have learnt though, is that there are people out there who despite everything life throws at them, are willing and able to dig their heels in and not give up.
Speaker: And if that is not an argument for queer parenting, then I really don't know what is.
Speaker: Next week, we'll be talking to Kristen Fisser about her experiences raising her transgender child and mothering them as they transitioned.
Speaker: My name is Connor James, and you've been listening to The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: The Daddy Issue is an independent podcast, produced and presented by me, Connor James.
Speaker: Music by Willem de Boij.
Speaker: Fact-checking and editorial support from Emma Vogt.
Speaker: Our original artwork is by the incredible K-Toys.
Speaker: And a special thank you this week goes to Sjöss for his time and sharing his story with us.
Speaker: We're available on Instagram at thedaddyissuepod, Twitter at daddyissuepod, and you can find us on Facebook too by searching for The Daddy Issue.
Speaker: Thank you.
