Transcript
Speaker: I know that as a teacher, if someone asks me to clarify feedback, it makes me feel so heard. And sometimes teachers need to be heard too. And sometimes we need to be recognized. And so when a ah student comes up and says, could you help me with this? Could you explain what you told me earlier? I'm like, yay, this is so cool.
Speaker: I'm Kaitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
Speaker: I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina Podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and today's topic is something we are all very familiar with as dancers, feedback.
Speaker: Feedback or corrections are a huge part of dance training, but it can shape so much more than just how you dance. It can influence how you see yourself, what you believe you're capable of, and even how you make decisions about your dance career. So today I'm joined by Kristin Dice and Michelle Lekadu, the co-founders of Danceend, to talk about how dancers can learn to take in feedback that helps them grow, let go of what doesn't serve them, and separate their dancing from their worth as a human being.
Speaker: So the first question I have for you two is what is it about the dance environment specifically that makes dancers so particularly vulnerable to internalizing what teachers say to them?
Speaker: Hi. Well, first of all, thank you, Caitlin, for having us on. We're so excited to be here. And I love talking about feedback. Before i even answer that question, I just want to say I love using the word feedback because I know in ballet, a lot of us use the words corrections, but feedback is more than just being corrected. It's also...
Speaker: finding out what you're doing well and how you've improved. So it makes me think of that Janet Jackson song. I think there are two factors here. In the dance studio, in rehearsals, in auditions, we kind of set up this hierarchy where we put the director or the choreographer on this pedestal, like everything that they say is important and we have to take it all to heart. And that's not necessarily the truth of the matter. Yes, they are leading the room, but everything they say does not have to be taken to heart. So I think there's that power imbalance that happens in the studio and rehearsal, but also the subjective nature of dance can be hard too. Like if you're a sprinter and you run a distance in five seconds and then another person runs it in four and a half seconds, then the other person's faster. In dance, that's not necessarily quantifiable.
Speaker: like that. you know Someone is not necessarily a better dancer than another person because there's so many factors that are involved. And it's like, I like this dancer better than this person. So that can also kind of make dancers go, this feedback is so important because I don't necessarily know where I land amongst my peers, where I am, how quote unquote good I am. So that puts even more pressure on the words that our directors and choreographers and teachers say.
Speaker: so I think there are a lot of factors involved, but it's also a really important part of class. We do need to hear it. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think because of the power dynamics in the room, right, the teachers are traditionally speaking, the keepers of the knowledge, the keepers of the opportunity. Dancers kind of see them as the ones that can lead the dancer to success. Everything that they say just
Speaker: goes in and kind of stays there, whether you want it to or not. And so, and I know we'll get into this later, but it's a natural process that happens. And in fact, there's been research that shows that when dancers experience what could be considered trauma in a training environment.
Speaker: So, and this goes for all athletes, pre-professional athletes. so trauma in a training environment, including things like constant criticism, feedback that is not balanced by positive feedback, where it's just constantly negative and it can create this culture of fear and dancers are then afraid of messing up and all of this. When they experience that, it can come out in the adult performer much the same way that when people experience trauma as children in their home, it comes out in them as adults.
Speaker: So this idea that feedback is internalized, yes and because the good and the bad finds its way within us. And if we're not sure to combat some of the negative things that we are absorbing, it doesn't just go away on its own.
Speaker: It will manifest in ways that aren't helpful to us as dancers or humans. How are we defining negative feedback? What does that include? That's a great question. I think everybody sort of sees it different.
Speaker: Theoretically speaking, right? No feedback should be negative because all feedback is good. All feedback is supposed to help you, whether the feedback you're receiving is one of praise or the feedback you're receiving is something that's coaching you to do something better. or the feedback that you are receiving that may be a blunt reflection of something that you're doing wrong. Like it's OK to be told, hey, you know, you're supposed to step on the five and you're stepping on the four.
Speaker: I think that feedback can become what we are. I'll just speak for myself in this conversation I'm referring to as negative is when it's belittling.
Speaker: When you are now comparing someone to some, why don't you look like them You should be able to do this and you're not working hard enough. And when it starts to bring in like this emotional component and you're putting the person down and you're creating fear, right? Where you're giving maybe a hard piece of feedback to somebody without also giving them the support to do better.
Speaker: then I think i refer to that as negative feedback. And I think it's important for dancers to understand. so there was a study published in the Journal of Applied Psychology almost 20 years ago that talked about something called the idiosyncratic rater effect.
Speaker: And it basically says that when we give a piece of feedback to someone else, that feedback is more about the person giving the feedback than the person that is getting the feedback. So about 60 to 70% of what we say to others is clouded by our own judgment, our own inherent biases, our own traumas, our own beliefs of what good is, all of these things. So when a dancer is hearing that and they're like, oh no, i feel terrible about this, but it's just a reflection of the person that's telling them what to do. And we tend to think of it as truth. It is some truth, but it is clouded and filtered through whoever is giving it to you.
Speaker: So would you say there are certain types of feedback that are particularly likely to become more personal for dancers? Like, does that negative feedback manifest as something more personal as opposed to when they're getting a correction that is given with support?
Speaker: I don't necessarily. i mean, maybe. But I also think it's so personal to each person. For instance, one of the things that is forever like burned into my brain, even to this day, even this morning when I was working out and we're doing like curtsy lunges, they're called, and I feel my thighs like really getting at it. I'm thinking, oh God, they're gonna get bigger than they already are.
Speaker: I'm 40 years old And i am hearing my teachers from when I was 10, 13, 16,
Speaker: At the time, talk about don't do any other exercise because we don't want your legs to get bigger. Try to slim down your muscle, like the words that they use. Now, I was a recipient of, I think, feedback that I would consider negative. That was just sort of cutting and mean and didn't offer any support.
Speaker: I was also the recipient of feedback with a lot of support where people were kind in their delivery. I trusted them. They really tried to help me. But because I was already self-conscious about it, it hit something within me. So I think that the feedback that dancers receive will be internalized given their own unique set of circumstances, the things that they already feel a certain way about. And that's sort of the work of the dancer then.
Speaker: Because the work of feedback isn't just the teacher giving it. Right, like the teacher could do all the work on their end and make sure they give lovely feedback and it's with all the support, but the dancer also has to meet them halfway and have self-awareness and ask hard questions like, what does hurt my feelings and why?
Speaker: and try to work on that a little bit because the other thing is that if you do as a dancer receive a piece of feedback that hits at a wound or it it touches that thing that you are self-conscious about,
Speaker: Nine times out of ten, your reaction is just going to be to run away from that feedback because you don't want to think about It it hurts. You just kind of ignore it And that's not going to help you either. And you really want to be able to hear what people are telling you, because at the end of the day, we all want to get better. That's why we're there. That's why teachers are giving us feedback. That's why we're asking them to give us feedback. So the work of the dancer is to really self-reflect, ask questions and kind of work on the way you see yourself, understand where you may have weaknesses, where you may be self-conscious and be compassionate and say, it's okay that I feel that way.
Speaker: i might feel a little bruised when I get a piece of feedback and that's all right. And if I feel in that moment, like I can look at that feedback and be brave and try to implement it.
Speaker: Great. And if I can't, I'll just tuck it back here and maybe I'll write it down after class and revisit it when I feel a little stronger. So to answer your question, i don't know that it's a simple yes or no. I think it's a little bit different for everybody. Good, quote unquote, good feedback doesn't have to necessarily be just good and quote unquote bad feedback isn't necessarily bad. When I was 12, my mom took me to a very well-known ballet teacher to audition for his advanced class. And I went in and I took the class and he sat my mom and I down afterward. And he told us that I should find another hobby. i would never be a professional ballet dancer. i didn't have the ballet body and we should just go home.
Speaker: And stop dancing. And it should have been something that would like crush me. but I was like, I'm going to show him. and for me, that seemingly negative piece of feedback was fuel. i was like, let's go. and then he was like this little inspiration as I worked. So I think it's part of the dancer's work is to look at feedback and decide, does this fuel me? Does this make me feel not as great about myself? And then really, really chuck it or keep it. Yeah. I'm thinking of an example personally of when I was a professional dancer. So, I mean, I had been a professional at this point for probably six or seven years. And We had a guest artist come in, stage a piece, and it was like we just didn't click.
Speaker: Nothing I did, she liked. The whole time I was very frustrated with the whole process. And there was one thing she told me that I did well the entire week of this rehearsal. Like one moment that was like, oh, good, Caitlin. That was good. Watch Caitlin do this thing. Whereas everything else was like, you're doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong. And then like two weeks later in a regular rehearsal process with my director, I got a correction on that step and I just – started bawling. like I was like, no, that's the only thing I'm doing right.
Speaker: Very much refusing to take the correction. I was like, you don't understand. like This is the one thing that I had to hold on to in this 12-minute piece. And looking back, I mean, it was just such an innocent, oh, Caitlin, make sure you do this on this thing. like There was nothing negative about the correction that she was giving me, but I personally took it so hard because i was like, please, I have to have something that I'm good at in this piece. And so like it's such a true point that you don't know what a dancer has internalized from some other experience and what's going to like sort of trigger that moment to be a lot harder for them than it maybe should be.
Speaker: As an educator or a director or a choreographer, you can only do so much, right? Like there is work that you should and absolutely should be doing, but you can't unfortunately guarantee that everything you say will land the way that you intended.
Speaker: And that's just life in general, like speaking to someone, you know, when we make jokes with people in our lives or we're just trying to communicate how we feel, not everything lands the way we intend. So that is an important note to know as an educator, like sometimes you will unintentionally upset someone.
Speaker: And that's just the way of it, right? But as long as you have developed a culture of trust, of safety, eventually, and maybe you felt the same way, eventually you were able to come out of it because you trusted your director, you felt good at where you were. like That will happen. And then same goes for dancers. Like they have to understand that game of telephone too, where not everything that they think they hear is actually what that person is saying. It's a hard thing to do because we're working very quickly in a time cooker.
Speaker: Sometimes you only have a certain amount of time to learn choreography or to rehearse and the stakes can feel really high. And then you add on top of that, oh, wait, I just heard something. Let me take a moment. Where did that land? How does it make me feel like we don't always have the ability to stop and pause and go through all of that? So one of the things that you can do, at least as a dancer, is like,
Speaker: Write stuff down. Get it out. Like if you have five minutes after you're done, just write it out. It doesn't matter if it felt good. It didn't feel good. I wish I had a better reaction at the time. diddadada Write it down because eventually you will see patterns. You will start to realize there are moments that you feel really activated by.
Speaker: and then you can start making different decisions when they come because you'll have more knowledge about it. You'll feel more prepared. I mean, there's never going to be any change if we don't try to change it. And I know that that sounds so elemental, but I have to say that to myself.
Speaker: All the time. Avoiding things is not a way. Nothing will change. So we've got to look at what little steps can we do so that we can be a little bit better each time. we can hear feedback a little bit better each time. And one of the things is to just write stuff down after class or rehearsal.
Speaker: The good and the not so good. i know that when I wrote down my feedback, I would just write down the things that I needed to fix. And then I never remembered all of the things that I was doing right. and And I think it's important also to really think about the words that are said.
Speaker: rather than what we think were said, because we all filter that feedback through our own insecurities and our own worries and things like that. And sometimes a teacher will just say, hey, would love for you to lengthen your lower back. And then I filter it through my brain and i'm like, they called me a big butt. You know, paying attention to the words that the educator or the choreographer uses and just writing them down just as you hear them rather than trying to translate yourself can be really important.
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Speaker: To learn more and register, head to the link in the show notes and start planning for an inspiring weekend this October. And to that, i just want to add something to that too, because our memory is completely unreliable.
Speaker: Like I know for myself, if someone were to ask me, okay, write exactly what that person said, all i that I would write is just what I thought they said.
Speaker: So sometimes it's helpful to ask a trusted friend, someone else who was in the room. And I have done this before where I'm like, can you believe what they said? Right. And then the other person looks at me and they're like, yeah, they just said blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: And I'm like, that's what they said. ah Like, yeah, that's what they said. Oh, so like sometimes it can be helpful if you're really struggling with something. To ask another person that was in the room with you, somebody that you trust, somebody that will, you know, give it to you straight. Community also really plays a big part in this. Like ask other people for support because I know a ton of places in my life, not just the dance studio where I have reacted a certain way because I am me and I come with all of the things that are in my past, all my experiences, all of the stuff. And then someone else witnesses the same moment and they're like, oh, that's fine.
Speaker: And it can be helpful to hear another perspective. So when you feel like you're too in it or you do want to simply remember the words that were said and not just what you think they were, asking somebody can go a long way.
Speaker: Kristen and I do that for each other all the time. I'm like, Kristen, that was, do did you hear what that person said? And she was like, yeah, it was fine. You need that person. yeah And I feel like I was always a dancer who really tied right with to being a good person. If I got told that I was wrong, I was like, oh, I must be a bad person. I don't think that I thought those things in my head exactly, but that's what happened. It was like, oh, I did that count, Ron? I must be terrible. And it would be like such a hard thing to hear instead of like you said, oh, a simple note and it can hit so much harder.
Speaker: What do you think dancers can do if they also experience something like that where it's like every note feels like an attack almost on your character? Sometimes this feedback becomes part of our self-talk.
Speaker: We take it on and then we become it. Like this teacher said that I'm not working hard enough. And then it turns into, i don't work hard enough. I'm not good enough in our brains. There is research that shows that when we separate ourselves from our self-talk, it can help us not identify with it as much. So rather than just thinking, i don't work hard enough, just separating it, making it third person.
Speaker: Michelle doesn't work hard enough. What should Michelle do? That can feel less personal and it can help us kind of get some distance from it and be able to decide whether it's something that a piece of feedback that we need to take action on or a piece of feedback that we want to let go. And sometimes even writing that out after class, like stream of consciousness journaling, if you want to take a moment and take yourself out of it,
Speaker: and say, Michelle messed up the combination today for the second time after she already got, because that was my thing. If I got a piece of feedback and I messed it up again, i was like, what is wrong with me? I can't fix it on the first try. But separating myself from being me and looking at it as I would look at someone else really does, for me, make a difference.
Speaker: It's helpful to... ask yourself why the feedback that feels like an attack on your character feels like an attack on your character. So like, for instance, Caitlin, in your situation, somewhere along the way, you learned that one of your strengths was being right.
Speaker: That that's what made you a valuable person in the room. That's why people liked you. That's what you could offer to the space. In much the same way that you had that story about that one moment, that was the thing that I had. And then when that's attacked, because it feels like an attack, then your self-esteem confidence just completely shatters because now you have nothing to give. And so part of the work too is figuring out how you see yourself.
Speaker: How do you see your character? And it's not always a bad thing. Like it's not a bad thing to think, hey, you know, I'm really good at memorizing choreography and I'm really good at remembering things. And that's my strength. That's amazing. If that's what it is, that's amazing. But just know that that's not everything you bring.
Speaker: That's not your only value. That's a lifelong endeavor to like truly understand your worth as more than the strength that you bring to the room.
Speaker: And especially in a art form like dance, because that may be why you were hired, right? Like we're all there for, and as a professional, you're there for a reason.
Speaker: But as you're training, you really have to try and find and develop your worth outside of just what you consider a strength in your dancing is Because everything is subject to critique and criticism.
Speaker: And even when you're really good at something, eventually someone is going to give you a piece of feedback on that thing that makes you feel like, oh, I guess I'm not good at that either. And by the way, all of this is normal.
Speaker: It happens to all of us. I don't think anyone has ever gone, and maybe I'm wrong and that would be amazing, but I don't know that anyone has ever gone their whole career and not ever had these feelings.
Speaker: So part of it too, is like really asking yourself, what else do I bring to the room other than this thing that I feel like is my strength? One of the ways you can do that is to, as Michelle mentioned, you kind of Think of yourself as someone else. You can also, we talked about this recently in one of our workshops, you can write yourself a letter as if you were a friend.
Speaker: So showing yourself compassion, there's a ton of research on it. Dr. Kristin Neff has done so much work in this area of self-compassion. it's very difficult, especially if you are cut from the cloth of a dancer who is self-critical in the name of getting better, right? We kind of like tend to look at ourselves and pick out all the bad things. So to look at yourself and just say, Oh, it's okay. You tried your best feels so antithetical to that. It also feels disingenuine. Like I do it. I try it myself, like be compassionate with myself. I'm so annoyed with myself. Like I can't even get, you know, I'm like trying to be compassionate and I'm like, this isn't working. So one of the exercises you can do is to pretend like you are not you.
Speaker: How would your best friend talk to you in this moment? How would your family member talk to you in this moment? And really try to write it down, write a couple sentences. What would they say to you?
Speaker: Just like everything, doing it once. is not going to be the solution. and I think sometimes we do something once and it doesn't work. And we're like, yeah, it it didn't work.
Speaker: We just like move on. Well, the first time you tried to do a Tendu, I don't think it really worked either. And you kept at it. And now look at your Tendus, you know, so like try to make it a monthly practice, a weekly practice. Write yourself a letter, assuage all of your the things that you felt bad about that week. Eventually,
Speaker: It will get you to a place where feedback doesn't feel like such an attack. It may still hurt sometimes, but you will be able to move through that much faster so that you can actually hear the feedback that is given. And then you wind up being a better dancer because you're taking action on feedback as opposed to running away and not wanting to look at it, which is never going to help you be better.
Speaker: I think it's also important to know too that the teacher or choreographer is not the only person in the room that should be giving feedback. You give yourself feedback all the time. And, you know, if you are writing down this feedback after class, if you are just listing things out,
Speaker: Don't forget to give yourself those pieces of information. There is no one that is inside your body. A teacher can look at you from the outside and say, you need to lengthen that leg arabesque or you need to you know you need to spot faster, but maybe that's not what you were working on. So I think dancers discount things themselves and what they want and how they want to improve a lot. And maybe this was a class where beforehand you decided that you're going to try to just breathe all class long. And then a teacher comes up and they're like, why is that why is that not sharp enough? Right? Because you're working on something else. So only you know what you want to work on and only you know
Speaker: if you are doing a good job at that. So I think that's important to give yourself grace with, but also to recognize the things that you are doing that other people don't always see because there's maybe 15, 20, 30 people in class and one person that's teaching and they're not going to see everything. That time you did that quadruple pirouette and you just like live your life on point at the end and no one saw it. They never see it. Give yourself that feedback, you know, like write that down. Michelle, that amazing pirouette. But that brings up a really interesting point because how many of us, and I'll speak for myself, like if no one saw it, did it happen?
Speaker: It's like that adage, but for real, you know, it's like that adage of like, if a tree falls in the wood and it doesn't make a sound, does it? So often for myself, I was dancing for the praise and adoration of somebody else. and that in and of itself is such a problem because i will never be satisfied until i satisfy everyone around me which by the way is impossible and so i'm just setting myself up for failure if you do sail that quadruple pirouette on point and no one saw it and you're like god i don't even care that i did a quad because no one saw it
Speaker: Think about that, too. Like, think about that feeling. Who are you dancing for? Why are you there? If it's only because you feel like you're good and you get praised for it.
Speaker: See if you can shift what you find to be exciting about the journey, because most of the work, to Michelle's point, that you do, only you see.
Speaker: And if you can't be happy with that, then you're not going to enjoy your dancing journey very much because not everyone is always privy to all the stuff that you're going to do well.
Speaker: Yeah, and I'm thinking about all the self-talk kind of things that we've talked about, you know, over our conversations. and And I had to work on that so much. And I was thinking about this scenario recently when I was supposed to teach a private lesson at 10.
Speaker: And I wrote down my planner as noon. I had it in my brain as noon. I had all the things as noon, like just in my brain over and over again. And then I get a text at like 10 something like, the studio is locked. And I'm like, what?
Speaker: Well, why are you there? It's not till noon, you know, completely wrong. My immediate reaction was like, you messed up. How could you do this? You're so unprofessional. And like, I had to go through the whole self-talk of like, you've been teaching dance for 15 years. You've never got the time wrong.
Speaker: of when you had to be there before. How many classes have you taught that you've been there on the right time? You made a mistake. It's annoying. Made me feel rushed. and I had to run out the door and like try to get there as soon as possible. I felt bad for messing up the time. I mean, I had to like separate the like, I can feel bad that I messed that up.
Speaker: And I made a mistake and that's okay. And for me being able to like go through that whole process by time I got to the studio and be like, okay, we're cool. Was a big deal. I'm almost 40 years old. You know what I mean? But just to say like, it takes so much time to work on it. And I at the moment couldn't even be like, wow, good job, Caitlin. Like you problem solved through that and through your emotions, but it is so hard. Like you said, it takes a lot of practice and have to do it a lot of times. You have to do it a lot of times. It takes a lot of practice. Some of us are under the assumption that like, once we get then it will just always be easy. It's never going to be easy. It will just move a little faster. Like you're still going to be upset with yourself. You're still going to feel bad. All of that will still be there, but you're going to be able to move through it more efficiently and a little faster each time. And think that sometimes people have that as a goal is like to avoid the hurt, to avoid the pain.
Speaker: And again, like that's not doable because we're human. Those things are going to come. But if you have a good coping process, mechanism, that should be the goal, not to avoid all this stuff, but to cope better with it. And I just want to say, Caitlin, that that's amazing that you were able to do that. because i feel I feel that so much. And like, you're never too old to learn these skills. you're not it's never too late to start like it's so valuable and i'm still working on it every day i feel bad about something and i've got to talk to myself in the same way and it's exciting to hear when someone is able to do it so yay yeah and it's like also it's just a continual process one of the exercises we do in workshops sometimes is we have
Speaker: People get a piece of paper, an actual piece of paper, and on one side of the paper write down their mistakes, and the other side of the paper they write down the wisdom they got from their mistakes, and then we have them rip it down the middle once they have written a number of those. and then we ask them, here are your mistakes, and here are your pieces of wisdom.
Speaker: Which one do you keep? And then, of course, we're all like, I want to keep the wisdom. But it made me realize, dang, I keep the mistakes. And I keep reliving those mistakes over and over. Because I think if I keep reminding myself of the mistakes that I will never make them again, but then I lose the wisdom that I've gotten from the mistakes.
Speaker: I think it's it's important to self-reflect when you said that, by the way. I went back to a moment where Kristen was on maternity leave and I was supposed to speak to this huge group of dance studio owners, not kidding, like hundreds. And they were on a Zoom and it was they were East Coast and it was like 7 a.m. m on a Saturday. And they're like, where are you? And I went out to the garage and my like pajamas and like showed up and there's 200 people on a Zoom. And I'm like, ah!
Speaker: And then I like presented all on the wrong topics and I was like, No! And I'm realizing as you're talking about this and as I'm talking about this exercise that I kept that mistake and I didn't keep the wisdom.
Speaker: So it's a practice. It's not one and done. We don't just learn how to do a Soda Shah and they're always perfect for the rest of our lives. You know, we keep doing it and getting better at it. It's so true that it's so easy. Like I think back on the corrections I remember over my course of my dancing from when I was little and it's mainly the mistakes. I don't have a lot of memories of times that I was told I was doing good and I know that I was told that a lot. I didn't have an environment where I wasn't told that.
Speaker: I just don't remember those because they don't stick in your brain as much for program to remember the negatives. And I think it's hard to, I know for me it's hard to give myself positive feedback and It feels a little disingenuous sometimes like, oh, Michelle, you're so great. Right. So one of the good gateways to learning that for me has been giving random people compliments. Like in dance class, I'll just go up to I take a, you know, an adult ballet class at like West Side Ballet. And I'll just go up to a random stranger and I'll be like, that was really beautiful. And so it's starting to kind of rewire my brain to not just think of the negative feedback. And if I'm giving the positive, I'm hoping that eventually I'll start to give myself the positive as well.
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Speaker: Head to the link in the show notes and use code BRAINYBALLERINA for 10% off your order of Orza Ballet slippers today. One question I have that I think a lot of dancers experience is what happens when dancers are receiving conflicting feedback from different teachers.
Speaker: How do they know who to listen to, what to take in how to decide what works for them? You don't. that's the That's the simple answer. You don't. This is something that I still talk to my students who are 20, 21, 22 years old. i'm always like look,
Speaker: I'm going to give you feedback that may align with what you hear from other people and it may not. So do with it what you will. And of course, it's easier. it should be anyway, when you're that age, you know, you have a little bit more maturity and you can sort of understand when children are younger, it can be really tough because you don't know. You just are trying to please everyone. And when those two things are at odds, like, well, this person wants me to do this. This person wants me to do this. How do I do it?
Speaker: It can feel impossible. And I have been there 100 million times. i was trained mostly in balancing technique. And I had like one Russian teacher every now and then who would like completely be like what are you doing? Why does your hand look like that? Like all this stuff. And i'm like, because that's what they, and like you, Caitlin, I'm like, I was appalled that I wasn't right because I thought that I was doing it right.
Speaker: And then here comes somebody telling me. So a few things, if you're hearing this and you're a dancer, you're never going to be right because to Michelle's earlier point, dance is subjective.
Speaker: So just try to make peace with that as much as you can, that everyone's gonna have an opinion of what you're doing. And the only person's opinion that really matters is your own first and foremost. However,
Speaker: When you get feedback from teachers who are experts in their field, it is good information to have. So the first thing I would say is try to hold on to all of it, even if it's conflicting, because some of it may help you in certain contexts, in certain situations. The other thing I would say is that if it's really eating at you and you're really not sure, ask a teacher that you have a good relationship with, that you trust, that you know will take this question and help you you know after class, if you can grab them for a few minutes and just say, i just have a quick question for you. i got this piece of feedback from you. I've also heard this and I'm not really sure how to go about it. i don't know if they'll have a great answer for you. I know sometimes i don't have a great answer for my students, but just talking about it will make you feel less conflicted. Like, cause sometimes you think, well, the problem must be me.
Speaker: Because this can't be right. They shouldn't be giving me two pieces of feedback that can flick, but it happens all the time. So I would say try to hold on to them as much as you can, apply them when necessary, and then talk to a trusted teacher about it because they might be able to give you some more insight about why they said what they said. Because if all educators had 30 minutes to explain every five word phrase that we said to our dancers, how lovely would that be? But then nobody would be dancing and we'd just be talking the whole time and we got to move on. So there's a lot that is unsaid. and in those moments, I would ask. And then as an educator, if you're listening to this, just know that that happens. The feedback that you might be giving your students might be at complete odds with what someone else hears. And every now and then, it's really good to acknowledge that.
Speaker: It's really nice to say like, and I know that you might be getting something from someone else and da, da, da, da. But for right now, right here, let's just try this. Let's just give this a go and see how it feels. And then you get to decide what works best for you. That can be really empowering because now you're giving the choice to the dancer as opposed to leaving them with what feels like an impossible choice. Like you're empowering them to make the right one for them. Yeah, and I feel like with ballet, especially when you get to the more advanced level, some the corrections you get, it's just like, what works for you?
Speaker: does this help you or not? Because there's all different styles. Everyone has their opinion on how it's supposed to be, but it's like, everyone is right in their own style. Like, just try this and see if it works for you. And then if it doesn't, like, just forget it.
Speaker: yeah I'm not offended. And I think that's helpful to hear as a student. You're not hurting my feelings if this didn't work for you and you just want to forget that. But like, please just try it. Keep it open mind and see what happens because you might be surprised. You can get so stuck in your ways. You have to just try.
Speaker: Yes. And sometimes I know that I often have felt like when a teacher gives me a piece of feedback and I try it in class, it has to work straight away or I've failed them. Usually if you're trying something new, it'll throw off a lot of other things, right? If you're trying to lead with your right scapula on your pirouette and you're used to thinking about like leading with your outside of your knee, then it's going to throw other things off and you might fall down. And then we have to be able to have the grace with ourselves when we're trying something new that it's not always going to be perfect when we first try it out. And it's not letting the teacher down if we don't do what they said immediately and it isn't perfect.
Speaker: And what would you say to dancers to help kind of filter that? How can they filter what's useful, what to let go of and be okay with that? The first thing like we talked about is separating yourself from the feedback, writing it down and looking at it, really looking at it. And it's a gut check. Does this help me?
Speaker: Is this something that I want to try to put into practice? Or is this something that... maybe is not helping me at all. Maybe it's just hurting my feelings and maybe it might be a great piece of feedback, but it might be something that was told to me in a way that isn't helpful. And I have my dancers pretend like they're holding the piece of feedback in their hand and I'll have them like physically put it in their hand and I'll ask them like, do you feel like this feedback helps you?
Speaker: And if they do, then I have them like mime putting it into their body and like having it become part of what they're working on. And if not, I have them just like the Bluey episode, like crumple it up into a ball and throw it into the ocean. So it it seems so silly, like, you know, little kid stuff. But because we're such physical individuals, sometimes like physically attaching people a movement to an emotional release or an emotional acceptance can help us move forward with that.
Speaker: Yeah. And if the dancer is at a certain emotional and mature level where they can kind of see a bit of nuance to what is happening within them, I think sometimes we can...
Speaker: Be misled by our feelings when our feelings aren't always to be trusted. And this is kind of like the next level of working on self-awareness and acknowledgement because I could, as a dancer, get a piece of feedback that makes me feel bad and say, yeah, it makes me feel bad. i don't like it. I'm not going to listen to it. And I think that that absolutely is valid at any stage in the game. And I also think that
Speaker: When we're sort of leveling up and working through our self-reflection and our awareness, the next question is like, does it make me feel bad because I am accepting this in a way that is not helping me?
Speaker: Or does it make me feel bad because i just don't see this working for me at all? This is sort of complicated, but I hope you're following what I'm trying to say. This can't happen in a millisecond.
Speaker: So i used to write down all of my feedback and then go back and read it like years later. Because at the moment, maybe what that person said to me really hit something that I wasn't ready to hear, but I needed to hear it.
Speaker: And then like months later, years later, i can read it and understand from the maturity level I have now, i look back at that and I say, yeah, that is exactly what I needed.
Speaker: And I know what to do with that now. And I think that that's part of this feedback equation that none of us can really even get right is the timing Right? Like some people aren't ready to hear the feedback that they need to hear. and how do you how do you even work with that?
Speaker: We're all just trying our best, you know, like I'm a teacher. I'm just like, I see something. I care about the student. I want them to get better. i have no idea if they're ready to hear this or not, but like, I'm going to do my best and I'm going to deliver it in the best way I can. And then a dancer is like,
Speaker: live in their life, they can't always control where they are on this, you know, they're growing, they're maturing, you don't know what to do with it yet. But that doesn't mean that it won't come in handy at at some point. And sometimes if you don't write it down, you'll never give yourself the opportunity to go back and reflect and take all of that wisdom that that person was sharing with you, but that you just weren't ready for yet.
Speaker: And that's okay too to say like, this isn't serving me right now because I'm not sure what to do with it right now, but maybe that will change in the future. And let me just write this down so that I can come back to it later.
Speaker: Yeah, it's like don't throw the feedback away just because it makes you uncomfortable. Yeah. Be really honest with yourself. Do I not want to take this because I know it's going to be hard to like change this thing and I don't want to go through the discomfort of my pyramids were working okay.
Speaker: If I like change this thing, they're probably going to worse before they get better. I know eventually if I can fix this, they're going to be a lot better. But do I want to go through that uncomfortable period to get there? And that's the thing that's hard a lot. I say this in class sometimes when I'm teaching company class.
Speaker: You can choose if you want to do on flat or releve, right? Because I know the company has rehearsal all day. I know what they need to do, what they need to do. But sometimes I will say, like, do what you need to do, not what you want to do. Like, do you need to do this on ra a releve? There's a difference between what you really kind of want to do because you're just tired or whatever. And and that's valid. Some days, like, you really do need to save your legs. And it's like, yeah, I actually need to do this on flat today. And that would be better for me. And some days you're like, I really do need to do this on a releve. I need to get this strength back. I need to build this. I need to have this ready. Like,
Speaker: So kind of asking yourself, what do I need to do? What do I want to do? Has been a helpful reframe for me. and that is a hard question. That requires a level of really knowing yourself that when you're young,
Speaker: who You're just like guessing. i mean, I'll talk, for I'll speak for myself when people were like, yeah, like, do you know yourself? I thought I did, but I was just guessing. You're just trying stuff on. You don't have that many years behind you. You know, you're like, I think this is who I am. And yeah, like our feelings are always valid, but they are transient.
Speaker: And they change and they come and go and they're not the like solid thing that we should base all of our choices on. But when you're young, you don't really have, you know, that foundation is still growing. And so i think to your point, Caitlin, it's like really understanding that difference between need and want and realizing like maybe you're on this spectrum of like, where am i today? Am i sort of feeling more over here? Am I sort of feeling more over here? And
Speaker: the whole thing, even just talking about it, it's a lot of work. I'm tired just like talking about that, you know, and and plus we actually have to dance like it's it's a lot. And the other thing I just want to throw out is like none of us can do this perfectly. None of us are doing all of this at every moment. It's like take one little tool and try it and see it how it works for you and give it a go like a real honest go, not just like I did it once and it didn't work. And you've got all of these different tools that you can use. They're like crayons in a box. You don't, my three-year-old does, but generally speaking, you don't try to pick up every crayon that's in there and draw with every color at the same time all the time, right? Like you choose one. What should the sun be? What should the trees be? Like you choose one at a time. Put all that stuff in your toolbox and don't pressure yourself into having to use every single tool every single day.
Speaker: But you have options. You can try things on and you can experiment. And the most important thing is that you are trying to do this work. That's what's important. think it's also important to note what assumptions you might be making of yourself that might be in conflict with feedback that you're getting.
Speaker: if you're feeling like a piece of feedback is just kind of hitting a wall with you, maybe you have some assumptions like, I'm just not a turner, or I have bad turnout, or I don't have good extension. And then someone's giving you you feedback to help you with your extension.
Speaker: But then that's in conflict with something that you've created as your identity. And nobody is just quote, unquote, not a good turner. No one has just bad extension. Everyone is along a spectrum and everyone is moving along that spectrum as they go. So that's an important part of the reflection, but also realizing, I wish I knew this earlier, teachers are human. Like they get tired, they get hungry, they have to pee. They sometimes say things and it comes out of their mouth and they don't even remember what they said, like me. So being able to recognize that everything that people say in the front of the room isn't always perfect either. And they might say something that they don't mean.
Speaker: Kristen was talking about asking a teacher afterward if you had feedback that was conflicting with another teacher. I know that some of my teachers, especially when I was younger, I was like too scared to even talk to Write an email, write a letter. I know that as a teacher, if someone asks me to clarify something, feedback, it makes me feel so heard.
Speaker: And sometimes teachers need to be heard too. And sometimes we need to be recognized. And so when a ah student comes up and says, could you help me with this? Could you explain what you told me earlier? I'm like, yay, this is so cool. So don't discount the teacher's part of it as well.
Speaker: And it helps you get better as a teacher because a lot of times you just know what you're talking about so well that you'd think everyone else knows. And then when they ask, I'm like, okay, now I'm forced to really think about how can I explain this differently or better. That really does help me And my adult students do that a lot. They ask really good questions like that, you know, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a really good point that I didn't really explain that because I just, it's like two plus two equals four to us. We've been doing it for so long. And so That is so helpful. And I think it's also helpful for teachers to remember that human brains can only absorb so many corrections at once. I used to feel like as a teacher, if I wasn't saying every correction that I saw, that I wasn't being a good teacher. I'm like, well, if I let this go, then I'm not helping them. you know And coming to realize over time, like you have to pick and choose your battles for the day. like What's the thing that you're going to work on?
Speaker: If you try to work on all of it, it's just going go right over head. Yeah. Something that you said I think is so important and valuable for teachers, teaching beginner adults.
Speaker: I did it for a few years and it was so joyful. Like I didn't know what it was gonna be like. And I had the time of my life and it taught me so many things about how to teach.
Speaker: It made me, forced me to clarify things that I thought were very easy to understand. And turns out they're not, they're just phrases that I've heard since I was three. And that's why they feel familiar to me, but do I even really know what they mean?
Speaker: Because when someone challenges you, like you were talking about Caitlin and out you're like, huh? Yeah. What is that about? You know, so like any teacher wanting to look to get better at what you do, challenge yourself by teaching beginner adults because it is so amazingly refreshing and challenging. And when they get something that you talk like, it's it's a it's a whole other level that I think everyone should experience at least once in their life.
Speaker: And then the other thing that I think is really important is as an educator, don't pressure when you do give feedback. I know this came up a little bit, but when you do give feedback, don't pressure your student into implementing that feedback right away.
Speaker: Sometimes it's enough to just give someone feedback And then have the whole room work on it. Because when we all stare at this one person, okay, like do it like that. You think that they're really like, that's a high pressure situation. And sometimes it works and it's amazing. And then we feel super amazing as a teacher, like, see, I know what I like, I get it. I've been there and I've done it.
Speaker: And then I'm like, I'm so good at what I do. it felt But it's like, Sometimes that's not the go. And sometimes it's you give feedback, you let the whole room work on it. And sometimes it's you don't give feedback and you just watch.
Speaker: You just watch, which is so hard for me because like you, Caitlin, just I want to say all the things. and just last week, I just was silent.
Speaker: for like four bar exercises in a row. And I challenged myself to just watch. And I saw things that I never noticed before. And I was able to give better feedback because I really watched the little things. I didn't just that it i just, I looked for patterns and then I was like, okay, I think I have a game plan for the rest of the class because I'm seeing this and I got so excited and the kids got so excited and we were all on this journey together. So feedback doesn't need to be high in duration to be effective.
Speaker: Yeah, that's so true. I was, I sprained my ankle in the spring. So I had to like just sit and watch my classes for about a month. And same thing you said, I saw things that I had not seen all year. And I was like, wow, this viewpoint forcing me to slow down and like not walk around and try to like yeah do all of the different, you know, i was like,
Speaker: Huh. Now I can explain exactly like you said. It's so valuable. And I didn't do it until forced to do it. And I'm already forgetting that, you know, so thank you for that reminder to to sit back a little bit more sometimes because it's like you go back to your old habits and we're dancers. We want to move like we're physical. So just slowing down is hard, but your class definitely needs it.
Speaker: Totally. And yeah, it's so hard. Like I want to walk around. I want to count. I want to sing the song. I want to tell, you know, Anna one, Anna two, turn out, knee up. get that Like I can't stop my mouth from moving. And sometimes that's really great because they need that energy and it feels invigorating. I mean, that day that I just watched, I was so physically exhausted. I couldn't, my brain couldn't even like put two plus two together. And I'm like, okay, I'm just going to do the best I can. And it turned out to be the best. I think one of the best classes I've ever taught because i was forced to really settle in And that same goes for dancers too. Like challenge yourself to view yourself that way.
Speaker: When you are dancing, of course, if you're anything like me, it's like every little thing. I mean, I can't even do like a plie without thinking of the 500 things that I'm already doing wrong. The whole thing is going down because I can't even do a plie.
Speaker: Try your best to let allow the self-critical voice to be present, but don't let your attention go with it. See if you can stay steady with your breath and really just watch that voice.
Speaker: What does it do? Like, where does it go? And just be curious about it instead of always identifying with it. Because the same way that you can remove yourself from those thoughts by writing them down, you can actually even do it in real time.
Speaker: It's harder, but you can. And it's a great practice to get into because if you're able to stay centered when you're nervous, when the pressure is high, when you're getting on stage, when you're ready to perform and all those nervous thoughts start coming,
Speaker: The skill of being able to just watch them instead of allowing them to like take over, it's going to like be super handy to have that as a tool in your toolbox. Yeah. This has been very helpful. i always feel when i talk to you guys, like I've gone to therapy because I'm like, wow, I discovered things about myself that I... didn't realize. And this has been like just so eye-opening for so many dancers. I know you both have a brand new app out through DanceSense. I'd love for you just to talk about that a little bit before we wrap up so everyone can learn about the tools you have available. Yeah, we have the DanceSense app that's available on iPhone and Android. We spent years making it, but we're so proud that it is a
Speaker: handy resource for both dancers and dance teachers. So we have a separate section for dancers and a separate section for dance teachers that has all sorts of resources on anything that you might be wanting to learn more about in the mental wellness world. Things like dealing with stress, finding more positive self-talk, creating a healthier body image, resilience, how to deal with injury, how to deal with social media, how to deal with burnout, all sorts of things in bite-sized informational bits. We have meditations for dancers, like pre-class, post-audition, worksheets, videos, and then we do live sessions with mental health professionals that you can hop onto on your phone or on your laptop or on your tablet.
Speaker: And it's all created in partnership with an advisory board of mental health professionals who are former dancers or who work with dancers. So we have worked on taking the science and turning it into actionable things that dancers and dance teachers can do to train their brains the same way they train their bodies.
Speaker: Yeah, and you can sign up for these two libraries of content on our website at danceend.com. and then access them on the app. When you download the app, just an FYI, when you search Danceend, at least on the Apple Store, it'll say, did you mean Transcend instead? And sometimes I'm like, yeah, because I am transcending this, OK? But I need the Danceend app. So you have to like do another little click. We just launched it. So we're hoping that the more people download it, they get the hint. It's like, why are you standing in the way of Dancer Mental Wellness, Apple?
Speaker: That's right. Tell them. I am going to tell them. It's on there. Okay. You just have to go through that one step. yeah And you can try it out for 14 days for free. If you feel like it helps you out, then you can stick around. And if not, then you can just move on with your happy life. Bye.
Speaker: Amazing. Well, everyone check that out. And if you liked this episode, tune into episode 15, where I had Michelle and Kristen on in the very early days of the podcast. That was a great conversation too. So thank you so much for coming on today. It's so great to see both of you.
Speaker: Thank you. Thank you, Caitlin. It's always a joy to chat.
Speaker: Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
Speaker: By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your reigns help others discover the show too.
Speaker: I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.
