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Ep. 23 - Minotauring
25 Plays6 months ago
We have a special double episode week and it's not because the editor forgot to hit the publish button. Get it together editor! Also magic talk, deck construction, and more!
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Transcript
Holiday Traditions and Public Transport Nostalgia
00:00:12
Zachary Jeblonski
hello Hello, welcome to another episode of Midlife's Crisis. I'm Zach, I'm joined again by Charles.
00:00:17
ciderspence
How's it going, Zach?
00:00:19
Zachary Jeblonski
I'm doing good. you guys have any sweet holiday plans or doing anything this week of of note? Oh.
00:00:27
ciderspence
Yeah, we are going to Grandma's house in Connecticut. And in preparation for that, I've spent the last two or three nights wrapping presents furiously to try to maintain the illusion of Santa Claus.
00:00:30
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh.
00:00:41
Zachary Jeblonski
that's That's sweet. That's nice. my My parents did a really good job growing up of maintaining that illusion and then you know letting it fade when it was time. But I'm sure there was many somewhat late nights for my parents too, and yeah trying to keep up that illusion.
00:00:55
ciderspence
Yeah, I feel like it was almost time at 4.45 this morning when I was tired of it. But I guess we'll we'll let it keep going.
00:01:01
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh, man. Maybe did you get up early or did you stay up?
00:01:06
ciderspence
No, I got up early, thankfully.
00:01:07
Zachary Jeblonski
Okay. I was like, oh, boy. Yeah.
00:01:10
ciderspence
No, then it would have for sure been time. Sorry, I do love my kids, but not in that particular way.
00:01:14
Zachary Jeblonski
Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, cool. Yeah, we're in Connecticut, roughly. and i don't need be precise, but.
00:01:21
ciderspence
Danbury, Connecticut.
00:01:23
Zachary Jeblonski
i think if I think the only place i've been in Connecticut so far is Hartford for like a brief work trip.
00:01:24
ciderspence
Yep.
00:01:29
Zachary Jeblonski
But I've only been in this area for you know three years now. so yeah i don't I'm not planning on going anywhere. The wife and I did a day trip to New York City and we did all the touristy stuff, which I had a lot of fun. I really appreciated.
00:01:44
ciderspence
Nice.
00:01:46
Zachary Jeblonski
I'm a public transportation guy. i love public transportation just because I grew up in a small town. And the concept that you can just like walk out of your house and get on a train and like go places. It's just like
New York City Adventure
00:01:59
Zachary Jeblonski
somewhat magical to me.
00:02:00
Zachary Jeblonski
And
00:02:01
ciderspence
Yeah, it's pretty incredible. I also grew up in the South.
00:02:02
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:02:03
ciderspence
So yeah, that was just not part of my lived experience for so long. I think I first, you know, I went to school in the Boston area. So that was probably my first
00:02:11
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah
00:02:14
ciderspence
prolonged exposure to just being able to walk from place to place or you know take a train or a bus from place to place. It's pretty great.
00:02:21
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was it was very much like until you hit 16 and you got a car, you are trapped at home, buddy, or unless you can convince your parents to take you somewhere.
00:02:30
ciderspence
Yep.
00:02:31
Zachary Jeblonski
So, yeah, no, it was cool. It was cold, I should say.
00:02:35
ciderspence
Also true.
00:02:36
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah it was like, it was a, we we we went to see the tree, but I wanted to see it in the morning inside of the evening because otherwise it'd be packed. So we got to the tree at like,
00:02:49
Zachary Jeblonski
640 the morning. And it was, it felt like 17, according to the phone. So it was good time.
00:02:56
ciderspence
Wow, yeah.
00:02:57
Zachary Jeblonski
but we're not here
Magic: The Gathering - Gameplay and Strategies
00:02:59
Zachary Jeblonski
talk about holiday stuff or are we surprised it's an hour where we talk about hot. No, I'm just kidding. let's talk about some magic. and I think, uh, I forgot to ask you, did you get, or maybe you said, and my brain's already mush.
00:03:12
Zachary Jeblonski
Uh, did you get games in past the kitchen table ones on Saturday?
00:03:16
ciderspence
No, I wanted to get some Spell Table games in, but just was not able to fit it in this week.
00:03:21
Zachary Jeblonski
No problem, because we got we got some doozies. So why don't we why don't we start with one of the first of the kitchen table games. And i was playing Unesh, Mono Blue Sphinxes. It was something I wanted to show you guys for a little while.
00:03:35
Zachary Jeblonski
And we had one of our friends playing Felwithar. And another friend playing... Man, I really like doing this. like stressing my brain muscles, trying to remember.
00:03:46
ciderspence
Yeah, i we both should just do a better job of writing down what all the decks were my game.
00:03:49
Zachary Jeblonski
We should, but I think it's really great for the listening experience.
00:03:51
ciderspence
Yeah, you're right. I'm sure this is the highlight of everybody's experience.
00:03:57
Zachary Jeblonski
you play Kyoshi. Okay, the mono green one.
00:03:58
ciderspence
I know, what yeah I remember I played Kyoshi. What did our other pod mate play?
00:04:03
Zachary Jeblonski
and love this. It wasn't Deadpool, right? That was like a week ago.
00:04:07
ciderspence
Yeah, I know. I was about to say, I know what was. It wasn't Deadpool.
00:04:12
Zachary Jeblonski
It wasn't Aluro. That was the second one.
00:04:13
ciderspence
Oh, it, right.
00:04:16
Zachary Jeblonski
was oh temnet was it temnet the zombies yeah yeah okay we got there we got there listeners <unk> we're so glad you can join us for this ride so all right so that was a cool game uh and and uh
00:04:21
ciderspence
Maybe. Yes, it was zombies, yes.
00:04:35
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, so we had yeah so I got off to a pretty pretty good start with the Door of Destinies, which, hot take, I don't think Door of Destinies is all that good. I think it's actually somewhat of a bad card in a lot of decks, including the one I have it in, because it worked out really well for me in this game, and I should probably read what it is, because I really don't see it anymore. It used to show up a lot more, but I think it's just it's it's too slow for now for modern days. Yeah.
00:05:01
Zachary Jeblonski
It's a four mana artifact. and when it When it enters, you choose a creature type, in my case, Sphinxes. And whenever you cast a spell, the chosen type put a charge counter and creatures I control get plus one plus one for each charge counter on the door of destinies.
00:05:15
Zachary Jeblonski
i actually I got it up to five, I believe, in that game before it was destroyed. But it's very much like a card that if you don't get down early, it it's it's it's rough. like Drawing this card like late game when you already have like six Sphinxes on the board,
00:05:30
Zachary Jeblonski
it's it's hard It's hard to justify the format and do nothing kind of thing, but the reason why it's in there...
00:05:34
ciderspence
And it doesn't pair really well with tokens, which I think is a lot, you know, makes up a large part of the archetype where people play a lot of the same type of creatures, so.
00:05:40
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. Yeah, it only works on cat on cast, so like, yeah. But I mean, but the reason why it's in there is because this is a mono blue typal deck that focuses on damage, making the creatures big. And there's only so many ways to do that mono blue. So and that's why it's there.
Advanced Magic Strategies: Avatar Kyoshi and Ink Moth Nexus
00:05:59
Zachary Jeblonski
But you had a really, you had a really, really interesting, solid game with Kyoshi. Yeah. Tell me, tell me about your perspective there.
00:06:05
ciderspence
Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:10
ciderspence
It was one of those games, like many Commander games, where the threat kind of passes hands a lot. And I was definitely helping the table deal with you,
00:06:22
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah As is the usual.
00:06:24
ciderspence
as is the usual.
00:06:25
Zachary Jeblonski
yes
00:06:26
ciderspence
And then we got to a spot where once you were kind of under control, it seemed like our two opponents seemed to be the biggest threats. And I think there was a moment in that game where after the player after me, so the player after me in turn order had a big turn, they had a big board.
00:06:47
ciderspence
And I was concerned about them and I was concerned about, so it was me, that player, you, next player. And I was concerned about both of those players, both of the not us players.
00:06:57
ciderspence
So I tried to make a deal with you, hey, if you deal with one of them, I can deal with the other one. And of course I said this out loud and it was a funny moment where, you know, the one, those two players like, what are what are you talking about? What's what's happening here?
00:07:13
Zachary Jeblonski
what's what's What's that about?
00:07:14
ciderspence
So, but I did have, so I was playing Avatar Kyoshi, let me just read her. She basically does earth bendy stuff. And I'm sure there's a better way to utilize this ability, but I was just trying to, oh,
00:07:28
Zachary Jeblonski
No, i think I think you really hit on something that I did not see coming. And I'll let you you reveal that when it gets to that point.
00:07:37
ciderspence
Right, so Avatar Kyoshi Earthbender. Five green, green, green, legendary creature, human avatar. During your turn, Avatar Kyoshi has Hexproof. A line of text which i I'm pretty sure I read when I played her, but probably could stand to be reiterated for the table because it definitely came into play.
00:07:49
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh, yeah, that came up.
00:07:55
ciderspence
At the beginning of combat on your turn, earthbend eight, then untap that land. So she's my earthbending commander. Earthbend eight, obviously really good. So you put one-one counters on a land and it becomes creature, it stays a creature, and then when it's exiled or leaves battlefield, return to the battlefield.
00:08:15
ciderspence
Oh, sorry, when it dies or is exiled, return to battlefield tapped. So I had an Urza's cave on the battlefield. and it was
00:08:27
ciderspence
earthbend. So i had earthbended it. I also had... so I had Kyoshi as a way to earthbend lands, and I also had Sing Se out, which would also let me earthbend lands.
00:08:36
Zachary Jeblonski
Okay. Yep. Yep. ye Yep.
00:08:37
ciderspence
So I had, on a previous turn, made Urza's Cave into a creature, and Urza's Cave basically lets you tutor a land from your
00:08:47
ciderspence
So it wasn't on board, but I knew that I had in the deck Ink Moth Nexus.
00:08:51
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, that was the card I was alluding to.
00:08:53
ciderspence
Yeah, and it's it's a card that I don't play that often, and I don't...
00:08:58
Zachary Jeblonski
No, you got now no no commit to it. It's good. it would i mean, it was really good in that game.
00:09:00
ciderspence
don't know. I think it did in this game what I think it's in the deck to do, which is be available to solve an otherwise unsolvable problem.
00:09:13
ciderspence
Like, I wasn't sure how we were going to deal with either of these opponents' boards, and this was a way.
00:09:20
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, the so, yeah, i mean, the Felthar deck, which is like a toughness matters, you know, slash defender deck, was pretty well positioned against both of us.
00:09:33
Zachary Jeblonski
And i think, yeah, the issue, like, and unless you got Trample on board, it was just like and really difficult to get through. So
Counterspell Philosophy in Magic
00:09:41
Zachary Jeblonski
I think that's, I think, yeah, i think that's where the Ink Moth came in for sure.
00:09:45
ciderspence
Yeah, and I also, that also mattering, I also had a Rogue's Passage on board. So I had the flying, i had Unblockable, and i think this wasn't...
00:09:50
Zachary Jeblonski
Yes.
00:09:56
ciderspence
So the Earthbend, or Avatar Kyoshi is pretty telegraphed, you know she you know, she gives a creature plus eight, plus eight, so that's obvious. But then I think it maybe wasn't as apparent to the rest of the table as it was to me between Avatar Kyoshi, which can give plus eight plus eight, and Ba Sing Se, which could Earthbend too.
00:10:15
ciderspence
I had the 10 poison for Ink Moth.
00:10:18
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep. Yeah.
00:10:19
ciderspence
So...
00:10:20
Zachary Jeblonski
i when That, when I, when that all came together, just like, wow, lead you wow. So when you put that deck together, you foresaw this circumstance of having Bong Sing Se and Ink Moth out.
00:10:30
ciderspence
No, I don't think so. I mean, that wasn't... my intention, and in fact, if I did if i did think of Ink Moth as a one-shot, get-out-of-jail-free card, I think I would have a few more Earthbending avenues in the deck.
00:10:34
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh, okay.
00:10:45
ciderspence
I think those might be the only two Earthbending cards.
00:10:49
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh, really? Okay, I guess that makes sense.
00:10:50
ciderspence
Yeah.
00:10:51
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, I mean because your commander does a big one.
00:10:51
ciderspence
But yeah, on a prior turn, I had tutored up Ba Sing Se with Urza's Cave. so
00:10:56
Zachary Jeblonski
Right.
00:10:57
ciderspence
i did I did know that Earthbending was going to be useful. I think I just wanted to have more creatures and I wanted to be able to I think the theme of the deck is i just want to be able to sacrifice lands for double value.
00:11:08
ciderspence
So you know I get whatever value I get out of sacrificing the land and then it comes back.
00:11:12
Zachary Jeblonski
Gotcha. Gotcha.
00:11:14
ciderspence
But yeah, i I don't think I explicitly foresaw that precise circumstance. But in this in this game, I did see that line, yeah.
00:11:21
Zachary Jeblonski
Okay. Yeah, I guess I wonder if like, i think I think, I wonder I was just thinking about Bong Sing Se, and if your deck has is enough of a proportion of fetchable land or like lands that fetch, you know, your normal fetches, your evolving wilds whatever, i wonder if there's a, there's a like and an inflection point where Bong Sing Se becomes a really good card because you can earth bend the fetch card, fetch land kind of get double value.
00:11:51
Zachary Jeblonski
that's something to think about. I'm going to like that idea.
00:11:52
ciderspence
I think so. I mean, i think Earthbending is broken in a few ways, and that's certainly one.
00:11:53
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:11:56
ciderspence
Like, the ability to just...
00:11:57
Zachary Jeblonski
is.
00:11:59
ciderspence
Yeah, just a basic Evolving Wilds Terramorphic Expanse or something. Just get the land and get that back. If you can Earthbend on each of your turns, that's kind of an engine unto itself.
00:12:10
ciderspence
And I think the other thing that happened in this game was I was able to ramp a lot early.
00:12:10
Zachary Jeblonski
it is Yeah. Oh yeah.
00:12:15
ciderspence
And so by the time this turn came around, I think I had access to 19 mana or something.
00:12:16
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah
00:12:20
ciderspence
So I was able to you know spend some mana to do things and also spend the mana to give my creature unblockable with Rogue's Passage. And I was later later able to recast my commander on a turn for like 12 mana and also play Glacier Godmoth. So like that game, that mana really came in handy.
00:12:36
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. Yeah. No, it was you. Yeah. You got off to a fantastic start and it was just, it was just difficult because and that'll be the next game we talk about. But anyway, but it but it was difficult to, you know, I, I didn't, I don't. So for
Group Strategy Against Powerful Decks
00:12:53
Zachary Jeblonski
my mono blue, for my Unesh deck, one of the, like the principles of when I made that deck and I still kind of hold to it, which is that there's no, there's no counters in that deck.
00:13:02
Zachary Jeblonski
You know, cause everyone kind of does the groan when a mono blue deck comes out. Cause you just, andt you just anticipate this, the endless counters and whatever.
00:13:05
ciderspence
Yeah.
00:13:09
Zachary Jeblonski
i mean, there's, you know, there's plenty of interaction with that, but I made it kind of made it a point that I was like, I'm no counters in the deck. Like, so I couldn't necessarily stop your land ramp. I was just kind of like watching it be like, well, hopefully I can go as fast as I need to go.
00:13:23
Zachary Jeblonski
i But even if I did have the counters, it's so hard to counter. It's so hard to counter ramp in magic because you're just like, I've got three of these at max in my deck and I'm going to burn it on a, you know, on a, on a horizon explorer or something like that, you know?
00:13:38
Zachary Jeblonski
And it's, it might even be the right move. it It probably is in most games to do that, but it's just really hard to justify when you know that like down the line, there's a, you know, Azores predation coming up or something like that.
00:13:51
ciderspence
Yeah, it's it's one of those weird corner cases of threat assessment where even if you see, it's kind of the, I would say you you'd make the other side of this argument with Rhystic Study, right? Like I could see people saying, well, I'm not going to waste a targeted removal spell on a Rhystic Study.
00:14:06
ciderspence
But I think you would say, no, no, you have to because it's going to change the game.
00:14:06
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:14:09
ciderspence
That's going to draw that player so many cards and they're going to access to so many things later in the game as well as answers that if we don't get it off the board now, there's no way that it doesn't snowball in value that's going to ultimately help them win the game.
00:14:22
ciderspence
And I think the same can be said, especially for repeatable ramps.
00:14:22
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, no, it, yeah.
00:14:25
ciderspence
So I had a couple of creatures that let me tutor a land when something happened as opposed to just getting the land once. And I was able to get those lands three or four times, which kind of, yeah.
00:14:35
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, I've thought about this a couple couple ways because I definitely have come to appreciate card advantage as threat assessment. Like when somebody draws a bunch of cards, i my threat assessment does change.
00:14:45
Zachary Jeblonski
I do pay attention to cards in hand now more much more than I used to when I first started playing Commander. It was very much like a what's on the board kind of threat assessment, but now I pay attention to like you know what's cards in hand.
00:14:56
Zachary Jeblonski
But I think I need to get there with land ramp too or even even like mana rock ramp.
00:14:57
ciderspence
Yeah,
00:15:02
Zachary Jeblonski
But like I need to and need to be willing to be... okay, you know, this person has ramped a couple of times. they might not have anything on board and they might have a semi full grip there. They might be threat number one, like, you know, you sort of thing, even if they don't, even if the board doesn't look scary yet or whatever.
00:15:19
ciderspence
yeah I think that the full context matters there.
00:15:19
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah.
00:15:20
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. yeah
00:15:22
ciderspence
I think you said something important, which is like, the board plus the grip plus the mana is kind of a thing, right?
00:15:27
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah
00:15:29
ciderspence
And I think what helped me in that game is I had a few inefficient, but ultimately valuable because I had so much mana, sources to draw cards. Like I had War Room out and I had, I may have also had Bondur's Enclave out, but I used each of those, I think I drew two or three or four cards during the game with those.
00:15:48
ciderspence
I think absent that, I would have not had enough cards for the mana to make a lot of advantage, although My main thought with the ramp was my commander costs eight. She's probably going to get removed. I just need to be able to recast her and still do something in that same turn.
00:16:03
Zachary Jeblonski
Right.
00:16:04
ciderspence
So mainly the ramp is just there so I can recast my very expensive commander. But I was able to also get some cards and then also do some stuff with it.
00:16:12
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, no, no, I think you're right. Like, you know, I've seen this happen a couple times. I mean, I've had it happen to me, especially in like modern green decks where you ramp like really hard, but your higher, your entire grip was the ramp cards. Now you've like, oh I've got 12 lands on turn six or seven, but one card in hand. And it's like, oh, in that case, like my threat assessment is like, all unless that one card is an absolute doozy, you're probably not the threat right now.
00:16:38
ciderspence
Right.
Strategic Plays and Game Highlights
00:16:39
Zachary Jeblonski
but I think the other part of that too is, is, and this is kind of like a meta thing is that, uh, I don't know if the magic community in general is with like counter spelling or interacting with ramp. Like it's what, what I mean by that is like the salt factor I think goes up really high. Once you do counter spell ramp spell, I've noticed, even if it is like from a game perspective, probably a adjusting to do, especially.
00:17:05
Zachary Jeblonski
If you're in a deck that can't land, if you're an Izzet, for instance, You, you know, you can't land ramp really, you can't really land ramp efficiently. so you know, the way the magic designers thought of it is like, well, we're going to give you the tools to slow down the person who can, right.
00:17:19
Zachary Jeblonski
Because you can't keep up with that. So, but i know at least in the circles that I've been in, I haven't tried it recently.
00:17:21
ciderspence
I've seen
00:17:27
Zachary Jeblonski
I mean, I can't remember the last time I tried to counter spell or stop a ranch spell. It must've been years probably at this point, but I'm, you know, the circles I ran in the past, I mean, I was just like, you know, tantamount to land destruction, you know, I'm being a little,
00:17:39
Zachary Jeblonski
you know, hyperbolic, but like, I don't know, something, it's an idea I should probably, you know, go back to. But once again, I mean, at the most, three counterspells on a deck, you know, for me.
00:17:46
ciderspence
see it
00:17:50
ciderspence
Yeah, i've seen I've seen interacting with ramp are kind of considered differently in a couple of cases. I think cases where you're ramping more than one land, I've seen it be interacted with more often and without incident more often, right?
00:18:01
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:18:05
ciderspence
Like open the way. I've seen that get countered.
00:18:06
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:18:07
ciderspence
But you don't you know you seldom see the like,
00:18:08
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep.
00:18:10
ciderspence
the two mana ramp one land get get interacted with.
00:18:14
Zachary Jeblonski
Right.
00:18:16
ciderspence
And I do think that you know there's a question of like how much value are you getting out of this? If the value you get is just a single land, then I think maybe it's harder to justify or maybe more salty.
00:18:27
ciderspence
But I would think of it as like a mana rock, like a two mana mana rock versus a soul ring. I've seen soul rings get countered. I've seen soul rings get removed because there's some notion that you know that Getting two mana for one mana, not acceptable. But getting one mana later for two mana, yeah, it's fine.
00:18:43
ciderspence
So yeah, I think you know how good the ramp is or like how much value it's going to add. Likewise, for like red players, you know spells that get you a lot of tres treasures.
00:18:52
ciderspence
like I've seen Room Treasures or Professional Face Breakers get countered or dealt with early before they could generate all the treasures.
00:18:53
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:18:59
ciderspence
People really don't like Smothering Tide because it generates all the treasures. But something that makes you
00:19:02
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh, I don't like Smothering Fire for another reason.
00:19:05
ciderspence
Oh, because it yeah because of the repeated asking. But yeah, something that's going to get you a lot of value now or a lot of value throughout the game I've seen get dealt with pretty regularly.
00:19:18
ciderspence
But something that's going to give you a moderate amount of value once, I think most of the tables I've been at, people tend to leave alone.
00:19:24
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. Yeah, I've seen, i i this is kind of came in my head we were talking about, and I talk about it i talked about this on three or four episodes ago, but when there was an Atali player at the table at a pod, at a store i hadn't been to before.
00:19:40
Zachary Jeblonski
And in that case, like we had this like consensus as a pod of like, okay, this game, we can never allow tallli Atali to resolve the red green one.
00:19:50
Zachary Jeblonski
Because when he enters, basically everybody flips through their deck until they hit a non-land card, and then the Atali player can cast all four of them for free. And usually the Atali player has ways to either double up that trigger, make more clones of Atali while on the battlefield.
00:20:06
Zachary Jeblonski
like Basically, once it hits, it's usually that's game over.
00:20:10
ciderspence
Right.
00:20:10
Zachary Jeblonski
and And like us as a pod, we literally took care of every ramp piece he tried to put down. like Every rock got destroyed. I think a ramp spell got counterspelled. And it was like one of those things where like everybody was in agreement, we all did the thing and it worked.
Challenges of Playing Mono-Red in Magic
00:20:26
Zachary Jeblonski
he never He never resolved a Tali once in a single game.
00:20:29
Zachary Jeblonski
and I think that was necessary. but I think it's totally such an edge case because totally is that, you know, I hate to use this term because I think people use it too much for a lot of commanders. It's like that Omega level threat.
00:20:40
Zachary Jeblonski
but I guess, I guess where, where it gets mushy is when you get those commanders in those decks where we're not, it's not a Tali level, but it's strong, like, you know, you know, a Tiamat or something like I'm trying to pull out a random other commander, you know?
00:20:54
Zachary Jeblonski
so yeah, it's something that I, I still consider as, as when a ramp spell is worth, worth dealing with, you know?
00:21:01
ciderspence
Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, I think by the, after you had been dealt with, and certainly once I, you know, once I got the Ink Moth and was able to one-shot one of the players, I was obviously the threat and the problem.
00:21:16
ciderspence
But until that point, I do think that it wasn't clear that my deck was a problem. It certainly didn't need to be dealt with in the way that one would need to deal with like an Atali deck.
00:21:28
ciderspence
And so, you know, it's like,
00:21:28
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. No, Kyoshi is not a Tali-level threat like that.
00:21:31
ciderspence
There's a question. Yeah.
00:21:34
Zachary Jeblonski
No, no. Yeah.
00:21:35
ciderspence
i I think, it it if anything, like I did have a pathway to generating consistent value by just getting lands on the battlefield. But you know I think it's a reasonable question, like how much how much is that even worth in a commander game? like it It ultimately worked out for me in this game, but it's not it's not clear that...
00:21:55
ciderspence
you know when I cast Earth King or when I cast, what was a Horizon Explorer, when I cast those things and had access to repeatable ramp, that that was a real problem for the table.
00:22:00
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah,
00:22:05
ciderspence
And ultimately, like that game went many, many turns. I think that game probably went well over 10 turns.
00:22:10
Zachary Jeblonski
it did.
00:22:10
ciderspence
And I think it was after turn 10 that i I popped off. So it's like, you know most games don't even go that long. So to deal with it or not to deal with it, I'm not sure.
00:22:19
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah,
Deck Building Preferences and Strategies
00:22:20
Zachary Jeblonski
no, I mean, it was an interesting game that posed some interesting challenges and I basically had one card in my entire deck that was going to get me out of that situation near the end. Once the rogues passage and the Aix Moths was going, which is, uh, raise the Palisade.
00:22:35
Zachary Jeblonski
which you choose a creature type and return all creatures that aren't those type to their own hand. And that would like, god it that would have gotten around all the earthbending.
00:22:41
ciderspence
Yeah, that would have been pretty good.
00:22:43
Zachary Jeblonski
But I just, I didn't find it in time and I just got, I got the, I got a poo pooed. it is But no, that was a really good game. That was a good game. I think everybody more or less got to do what they wanted to do.
00:22:57
Zachary Jeblonski
But then we get to the next one and that was also a really good game. With a surprise twist at the end.
00:23:04
ciderspence
Yes.
00:23:04
Zachary Jeblonski
So that's a, yeah, so that's, I was playing probably my number two or number three favorite deck that I have. i haven't played it that much. I think with you guys is a, it's Amalia life gain and Amalia is from mom Lost Caverns of Ixalan. She's a 2-2 for just a white and a black, which is another, one of the reasons I like her is I like, I kind of like cheap commanders. I'm kind of digging them.
00:23:27
Zachary Jeblonski
ward pay three life, which I think never once have I ever remembered to tell somebody that like I've had her removed so many times that i didn't even bother telling people that i was like, I forget most of the time.
00:23:38
Zachary Jeblonski
but whenever you gain life, Amalia explores, which is one of my favorite mechanics of magic and then destroy all other creatures. If it's power is exactly 20. and my whole mentality with this was,
00:23:50
Zachary Jeblonski
For a long time, i used to i used to kind of groan a little bit when people would play life game decks, not because they were good or whatever, but a lot of times I would see them really spinning their wheels. Like i would play against so many life game decks where like, oh, they made a crap ton of life, but then what?
00:24:06
Zachary Jeblonski
And now we have to spend an hour trying to chunk you down or whatever, right? Amalia came out and I was like, huh. Okay. So this is a life gain deck, which, but it produces a very clear path to victory, which is make Amalia huge.
00:24:19
Zachary Jeblonski
She detonates, blows up all the other creatures. And then I just start one shotting people with commander damage and it does the thing. And I really enjoy it.
00:24:28
ciderspence
Yeah, and it's worth setting the pod for this one.
00:24:30
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. Yeah. This is, yeah. So that's my side. And then, yeah, Charles, do you want set up?
00:24:34
ciderspence
So I was playing a burn deck. I played as a commander a card that was my card of the week last week. Longshot, Rebel Bowman.
00:24:42
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep.
00:24:42
ciderspence
Three and a red. Okay.
00:24:47
ciderspence
Three and a red, legendary creature, human, rebel, ally with reach. Non-creature spells you cast cost one less to cast, and whenever you cast a non-creature spell, longshot deals two damage to each opponent. He's a three, three.
00:24:58
ciderspence
So this is just a burn deck. And so Zac was on life gain. One of our other pawn knights was playing Aloro, the one who Eminence gains life.
00:25:09
ciderspence
And I told him at the start of this game, I don't think I can beat you. Because you're gaining the life every turn that I'm trying to take away. And I don't think I can. Especially if you have other life gain effects in your deck, I don't think there's a way that I can outrace you.
00:25:21
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:25:24
ciderspence
But he kind of presciently said, no, I use the life as a resource in this deck. And I do think that came into play. later on. i think if he had just been content to let the rest of the table deal with threats and stockpile life, he would have outlasted me for sure.
00:25:41
ciderspence
And then our other pod mate was playing Dehada, Binder of Wills, which doesn't seem like a life game deck, except that
00:25:44
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:25:49
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep. Yep.
00:25:52
ciderspence
one of her abilities is up to one target legendary creature, gains Vigilance, Lifelink, and Indestructible until your next turn. So it does have a reliable source of life gain once she's on the battlefield.
00:26:03
ciderspence
And at one point, I think each of you had over 50 life.
00:26:07
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, it was definitely like, uh, I, I imagine like, if you looked at all of our life totals is like bars, that game looks like an equalizer from like a song, but each bar going up and down, up and you know, we definitely crab bucketed for sure.
00:26:16
ciderspence
Yes, that's right.
00:26:24
ciderspence
Yeah, it was pretty funny.
00:26:25
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah no, that was a, that was that was a really insane game. I basically that game had like, I would say three phases to it. The first phase was our friend playing to Hada. Just got off to a great start and it just turn after turn was putting out you know, big problems on the board basically.
00:26:44
Zachary Jeblonski
And I spent the first phase, which was probably about 60 to 70% of the game, just spending all my resources on dealing with that but with that friend.
00:26:53
Zachary Jeblonski
To the point where like Amalia got destroyed or removed somewhat early. And I didn't play Amalia for a long time after that because every one of my turns after that was just me playing removal spell and such.
00:27:03
Zachary Jeblonski
For an instance, you know, one of the problems that we had to deal with was Uh, he played original shield the whispering one, which require requires us to sacrifice a creature on our upkeep. And then he gets to reanimate on his upkeep.
00:27:16
Zachary Jeblonski
and then he made it indestructible with the hottest plus one. so I was like, okay. Uh, so there's just a lot of that, right? Where she's like, okay, how do we deal with this? How do we deal with that? And then he would reanimate something else. And then it's like, okay, how do we deal with that?
00:27:29
Zachary Jeblonski
And eventually I think we got to the point where, and this is one of those neat things. I know it's not neat. It doesn't feel good when you're the player getting it done to, but it's neat when like, I'm trying to figure out how the best way to put this, when somebody is off to a really good start and they have engines going, they're drawing cards and all this stuff.
00:27:46
Zachary Jeblonski
And you're just, and this is going to come off so mean. So I'm sorry, friend, if you're listening to this, but it's just kind of satisfying to grind somebody down to the point where their engine doesn't work as much anymore. And you just finally kind of like suppress their threat.
00:28:00
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:28:00
ciderspence
Well, you've talked about this a lot, about how you consider, you know, there are some, and I'm going to use the word toxic, it doesn't apply to this game, but there are some toxic archetypes or gameplay patterns that I've talked about, you know, I don't really like playing against.
00:28:02
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:28:08
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:28:14
ciderspence
But i think you fairly consistently said, i don't mind playing against them because it it presents a puzzle of like, how do i how do i enact my game plan, you know, within this context, within this set of circumstances?
00:28:19
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah
00:28:27
ciderspence
And I think having somebody be a clear threat is another one of those puzzles, right? And so I do i get what you're saying from the perspective of having someone have such an overwhelming, seemingly impenetrable presence on board or like with you know with cards in hand or with mana, how do you, as a table, deal with that?
00:28:33
Zachary Jeblonski
Yes.
00:28:48
ciderspence
And I think a lot of commander games kind of break down that way. Like somebody becomes a threat and it kind of becomes a 3v1, at least for a while, until that person is you know more level with the rest of the table.
00:28:54
Zachary Jeblonski
yes
00:28:58
Zachary Jeblonski
But i think I think in this case, this friend was what what I found was such a good game. And I hopefully he feels the same way, which is that he was, you know, to his credit, he was able to just keep bouncing back and bouncing back. So it wasn't like oh we just did this board wipe and we removed a piece or two. And then in one turn he was suppressed or whatever.
00:29:16
Zachary Jeblonski
And I was like, no, that in this game, he it was it was it was a grind him out, slug him out thing. So I think that's i think it's certainly to his credit and to his deck building and to the deck itself and all that. But I do enjoy that.
00:29:31
Zachary Jeblonski
because I think it it is like navigating that puzzle of like, you know, for instance, the shielded being like, okay, well, shielded is going be invulnerable on his turn. Well, it's invulnerable all the way until his next turn, but the one slice of time it's not invulnerable is on his upkeep.
00:29:44
Zachary Jeblonski
So I got to hold this removal for that. And I got to, you know, it's like that, all those like calculations and such.
00:29:49
ciderspence
Yeah.
00:29:51
Zachary Jeblonski
But that was really good. Then phase two was me going crazy because like once things calmed down on on that friend's board, I was like, all right, let's let's go for it.
00:30:01
Zachary Jeblonski
So I played Malia. I got some life game pieces out like Souls Attendant and such other. But I'll talk about my card of the week, which has been in deck for a while, but i hadn't I don't think I've ever had the chance to play it. like It's just like of those cards I hadn't drawn or whatever.
00:30:16
Zachary Jeblonski
It's Starscape Cleric from Bloomberg, one in a black. It's got Offspring, two in a black. It's a flyer. It can't block. It's a But the key is whenever you gain life, each opponent loses one life.
00:30:29
Zachary Jeblonski
So I was able to, I had a turn with the black crystal out. So I was able to offspring this for four total mana and it did work. I don't know exactly how much damage it did, but since I was doing basically two life for every life gain I i got, and my Amalia deck is in entirely based on incidental life gain. There's like, there's very little like gain a bunch of life all at once. It's already much like onesie here, twosie here, whatever.
00:30:57
Zachary Jeblonski
Uh, this, this card really went crazy and I did a tremendous amount of damage with it. yeah.
00:31:00
ciderspence
Yeah, at the point that you passed Starscape Cleric, you also had Meat Hook Massacre on the board.
00:31:04
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep.
00:31:05
ciderspence
So you had, you know, kind of an engine for life gain. So yeah, that was a that was a big problem.
00:31:11
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. So it looked like I was going nuts. I think I had drained out one person at least, And then, you know, all seem lost and then we get to phase three.
00:31:23
Zachary Jeblonski
So what happened in phase three, Charles?
00:31:24
ciderspence
Well... just Just to shout out the rest of the pod, all was almost literally lost because you you had a turn where you basically were about to pop Amalia and Dahada player stopped you.
00:31:28
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:31:33
Zachary Jeblonski
Yes.
00:31:36
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep.
00:31:36
ciderspence
and a similar that You were talking about the timing of interacting with the shield during a very narrow window.
00:31:42
ciderspence
That player stopped you from popping the Amalia and destroying all other creatures before you were able to take turns one-shotting us. And also in another very narrow window.
00:31:51
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep. yep
00:31:53
ciderspence
that was you know there yeah that This game was like almost over several times, and that was that was another one of them.
00:32:01
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, for sure. Now that was a, that was an excellent play. it was definitely one of those plays where, you know, this deck is not what I would always call a late night deck. It, it does get, I think the phrase I use is titled wave, title wave of triggers, which is like, there's a couple of mastery animation spells in that deck.
00:32:18
Zachary Jeblonski
And if any of one of them go off, it's, it's a lot of math usually,
00:32:22
ciderspence
yeah
00:32:23
Zachary Jeblonski
so I think I was in a little bit of a rush and I just kind of went and then once he, once that friend responded to a Molly and what was Molly is about the trigger, you know, I was like, oh yeah, there's probably about like 90 mistakes I made all along the way, but I'm fine with this.
00:32:36
Zachary Jeblonski
All right, cool. as You know,
00:32:38
ciderspence
this was this was a This was one of the nights where it was really fun. to play in a pod of friends. Because I think these decks were decks that we don't always play, that each of us doesn't always play, and that the pod doesn't see every week.
00:32:45
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah.
00:32:54
ciderspence
So there were lots of, there were many missed triggers or many missed opportunities to respond, but we were very casual about, oh okay, if you wanted to respond to this, you would have had to have done it in this turn.
00:32:57
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:33:03
ciderspence
or let's roll this back to make sure that you don't miss the window for doing this. i I regret that I was not more in that mindset during our first game because I would have remind, like, you know, i I brought up, I should have reminded the table that Kyoshi is hexproof during my turn, at least a time after I read it, just to make sure that people were thinking that because on the turn that I took out one of the one of the other players,
00:33:27
ciderspence
They had interaction up. They just didn't have, you know, the creature attacking was a land, so the interaction was non-land specific. And then they wanted to interact with my commander before I could make it big enough to be lethal. But then my commander was hexproofed during my turn. And I think, you know, had that been more obvious or more apparent throughout the game, that game could have ended very differently.
00:33:48
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, no, I understand that. and I, I knew that was like a, a, a minor point of contention, but I, you know, we, we, I think we've talked about this on a previous episode of just like, what is the duty to remind, you know, like past the point of the initial like, uh,
00:34:04
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah, and I'm sure everybody feels differently about it. Like, you know, you know, yeah, I, I don't know. I, I, yeah.
00:34:10
ciderspence
I would just say this wasn't a case of duty. i just feel like it like it wasn't a tournament. It wasn't even a store where you're playing against strangers.
00:34:19
Zachary Jeblonski
No, no, no, no.
00:34:19
ciderspence
This was just our home pod.
00:34:20
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:20
ciderspence
I just wish I had said it again, just because i like you know i don't want, i had a lot of fun playing.
00:34:20
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, for sure.
00:34:26
ciderspence
I think everybody had a lot of fun playing, but I would hate for someone to have had less fun playing because you know they du weren't able to
00:34:28
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, I think so i hopefully everyone did, yeah.
00:34:35
ciderspence
play their deck the way they wanted to or they expected to because of... yeah We're all playing so many cards and so many... Like, Aftar Kiyoshi came out like a month ago. Not everybody's seen all these cards. So there's kind of a lot of trust system about what people are playing and what's what's happening. So I feel like, especially in a casual setting, reminders, material reminders are just, you know,
00:34:56
ciderspence
They're not necessary, but to the extent that you think they will be helpful to have everybody just pay attention and keep up with what's going on, because there's a lot flying at everybody all the time, I think they can be useful.
00:35:08
Zachary Jeblonski
No, for sure.
00:35:08
ciderspence
I just wish I had done my job.
00:35:08
Zachary Jeblonski
and i Yeah, I agree with that. And I think that's up to the player's choice. And I would respect i would respect both decisions or or even decisions in the middle that were like, hey, I'm only going to say my card once. Or, hey, I do want to remind you guys frequently because I do want you guys to make the right you know make the right decisions based on information, knowledge, not necessarily based on
00:35:25
ciderspence
Yeah.
00:35:28
Zachary Jeblonski
you know, strategy or whatever. So, yeah, I see it from all different angles and I think very few approaches to that are the wrong approach. I think the the wrong approach is And this had no bearing on our games.
00:35:39
Zachary Jeblonski
This is not anything that happened in our games. But like what what I've seen at stores sometimes is people rush through some explanations on cards because they're trying to hide some information. That's always my favorite when somebody's like, oh, yeah, my my creature is a two two.
00:35:51
Zachary Jeblonski
It can't block and blah, blah, blah. And then anyway, yeah she's like, what was that? Well, well I'm sorry. What was that part? you know And I'm like, come on, guys.
00:35:57
ciderspence
Yeah, I've seen that too. That's not great.
00:36:00
Zachary Jeblonski
what we Come on. What are we doing there? What what what are we doing? This is a children's cards game. What are we doing? That's But no, no, that was, yeah, so walk me through the finale of this game because I want to hear you say it.
00:36:13
ciderspence
OK, yeah. All right, well, phase three was
00:36:17
Zachary Jeblonski
It was your turn.
00:36:18
ciderspence
there a Revenge of Burn. So I earlier in the game cast O'Hair Ashenil, the mono-red god from Ixalan that...
00:36:33
ciderspence
Trample four four If a red source you control would deal an amount of non-combat damage less than its power to an opponent, that source deals damage equal to its power instead. When it dies, return it to the battlefield tapped and transformed under its owner's control.
00:36:46
ciderspence
So it had died earlier, so it was on my board as a land. And I had foolish grip, I had four or five cards or something. And I had a turn where you you basically presented lethal, I think, with with the pingers.
00:37:02
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. For sure.
00:37:04
ciderspence
Like, I think it was pretty clear that if it got back to your turn, you were going to wipe the table.
00:37:09
Zachary Jeblonski
for sure
00:37:12
ciderspence
So I knew I had to just, you know, this was my moment. So I played some one-mana spell that would trigger my commander.
00:37:23
ciderspence
So I dealt damage to the table. So on the back of Ohir Ashno, you can flip it if you can pay you can pay two and a red and tap it to transform it, but you can activate only if a red source you control dealt four or more non-combat damage this turn, and only as a sorcery.
00:37:36
ciderspence
So because my commander pings each opponent for two, anytime he triggers, he's going to deal that four damage. So I i played a cheap spell, triggered that damage, spent the three to flip O'Hara Ash Noback on the back. So now, instead of dealing two damage to each opponent, my commander would deal four damage to each opponent. We also had an important ruling here.
00:37:54
ciderspence
Then I cast Fiery Confluence.
00:37:56
Zachary Jeblonski
Okay.
00:37:57
ciderspence
And I think I played this at a store, and the table had decided.
00:38:01
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:38:02
ciderspence
So yeah, if you if you know the answer to this, let us know.
00:38:04
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. So if you pull a Firely Confluence, I'm not sure if you're where you're looking at it on, but if you if you go to the rulings on it, well, I'll let you start, but if you go to the rulings on there, they seem to clear it up pretty easily, pretty clearly.
00:38:18
ciderspence
Okay, yeah, well, so it's a sorcery, two red red, choose three. You may choose the same mode more than once. It deals one damage to each creature, it deals two damage to each opponent, or destroy target artifact. So the question here was, if I choose the mode to deal two damage to each opponent three times, does that deal four damage?
00:38:37
ciderspence
Because it's a single spell that would deal a total of, oh, sorry, not what does it deal six damage? Because it's a single spell that would deal six damage, so it wouldn't,
00:38:43
Zachary Jeblonski
Thanks.
00:38:46
ciderspence
interact with O'Hare Ashnil's damage amplifier, or does it deal 12 damage because each damage dealing event to each opponent would then be modified by O'Hare Ashnil?
00:38:57
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, and and the very first ruling when I i pulled this up, because i thought I was pretty sure it worked this way, but I was confirmed. and And to me, I was like, I read this, I'm like, well, this perfectly applies to our situation. It says, if the first or second modes, which is one damage to each creature or two damage to each opponent,
00:39:14
Zachary Jeblonski
are chosen multiple times. Each of those modes represents a separate damage dealing event. For example, if an opponent casts Fiery Confluence, choosing a second mode three times, which is two damage each opponent three times, and you control Guardian Seraph with the ability, if a source of an an opponent controls the deal damage, you prevent one of that damage, you'll be dealt a total of three damage because each of the two damage trigger you know will be reduced by one.
00:39:36
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. So now that absolutely, if you have, will hear axon all out and you choose the second option, you're doing four damage three times.
00:39:46
ciderspence
Yep. So yeah all yeah, I guess I had not read that, but yeah, that does seem to make it pretty clear.
00:39:49
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, out and the take me back to that store. i want to go talk to those people. They were wrong.
00:39:54
ciderspence
Yeah, you I'm going to go back with the receipts next time.
00:39:55
Zachary Jeblonski
it's Yeah.
00:39:59
ciderspence
Yeah, so I cast Fire Confluence. That deals 16 to the table. So four for each instance of Fire Confluence and then four for my commander.
00:40:06
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep.
00:40:06
ciderspence
So that knocked out one player. Still 30-plus life to go on Zac and on our other pod mate. But then I found...
00:40:17
ciderspence
Past in Flames. And with the Past in Flames, I was able to recast Fiery Confluence. Past in Flames also dealt four to the table, so now now we're getting going.
00:40:27
Zachary Jeblonski
Yep.
00:40:28
ciderspence
Now I'm thinking there might be might be a pathway. And in my graveyard was my card of the week. So Past in Flames lets you flash back instants and sorceries from your graveyard. Their flashback cost is their mana cost.
00:40:40
ciderspence
But in my graveyard also was my card of the week. Ignite the future. Three and a red. Sorcery. Exile the top three cards of your library. Until the end of your next turn, you may play those cards. If the spell was cast from a graveyard, you may play cards this way without paying their mana cost.
00:40:55
ciderspence
Flashback, seven and a red. But... Notably, Past and Flames gives spells in your graveyard flashback for their mana cost. So I did not happen to have seven and a red to pay its own flashback cost, but I did have three and a red reduced by the commander to play Ignite the Future for its adjusted flashback cost.
00:41:04
Zachary Jeblonski
yep
00:41:14
ciderspence
And because it was still cast from my graveyard, even though I didn't pay seven and a red, I was able to exile the top three cards in my library and play them for free. And they were two non-creature spells and another damage dealer.
00:41:28
ciderspence
So I was able to deal just enough damage to take out the rest of the table.
00:41:28
Zachary Jeblonski
yep
00:41:33
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, what what what a climactic finish to that game. you like you That was definitely like a... That's a once every 20 games like play. And I was like, yeah. that was I was like, nicely done.
00:41:48
ciderspence
Yeah, it worked out. and it's It's funny. i was I was happy to see Ignite the Future work in exactly the right way because I had tried to do this in another game and failed pretty spectacularly with it.
00:41:58
Zachary Jeblonski
I mean, yeah, you got, you got, and I mean, lucky, maybe not the right word, but like you got very fortunate with the cards that came off of midnight the future.
00:42:06
ciderspence
yeah it was Yeah, it worked out just right. which Which, in fairness, I think is what Red does in Commander, right?
00:42:11
ciderspence
like we' either It either fails spectacularly or succeeds spectacularly. So, yeah.
00:42:11
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, that's what does.
00:42:16
Zachary Jeblonski
And red is one of those red is the color right now because I mean, I'm of the opinion that red is the worst color in magic, at least for commander right now. So when I do lose to them on a mono red deck or I lose to a predominantly red deck, I'm always like nicely done, you know, because like it's hard. It's hard in a lot of cases to win now with red.
00:42:36
Zachary Jeblonski
and especially in the environment that you are in with two life gain decks and, third player that had a significant life gain engine going, even if that wasn't the primary purpose of the deck.
00:42:47
Zachary Jeblonski
So x it's like, it's like, it's the, to me, that felt the equivalent of winning a Voltron game in a five pod. like he I was like, wow, nicely done.
00:42:58
Zachary Jeblonski
So that was, that was a really cool finish.
00:43:01
ciderspence
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, that was a fun one.
00:43:02
Zachary Jeblonski
it, Yeah, those are the, so that, yeah, those are our kitchen table games, two bangers. Uh, they both went on for a good time, but I, you know, I, I kind of like, I like a game that goes back and forth and, uh, arch enemies change and threats change all that. So that was really good.
00:43:16
ciderspence
Yeah, this was, I think these were the kind of long games that are more fun than the, I think that the long games that I don't like are when a player accumulates
00:43:17
Zachary Jeblonski
Uh,
00:43:26
ciderspence
enough value that the outcome never really seems in doubt, but the ending also never really seems in sight. Those are tough because then it feels like we're just, it's not that we're wasting time, but like the game that we're playing is kind of watching a player figure out how to win versus taking turns trying to, for each player, trying to figure out how to win.
00:43:33
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, dad.
00:43:47
ciderspence
It's like, we're all kind of watching one player and that didn't feel, the that didn't seem to be the case for that these games, I hope.
00:43:48
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh, yeah. i
00:43:53
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, no, I agree. And you just kind of, you just kind of ignited a memory in me. So, when you were talking about that, because, you know, that, that is my like number one thing, which is like,
00:44:03
ciderspence
The chess box, yeah.
00:44:03
Zachary Jeblonski
i don't i don't I don't mind archetypes. What I mind is turn time. And so if I'm just going to talk about a game briefly because I don't remember all the details but because now it's been a week ago.
00:44:13
Zachary Jeblonski
But i played against a Muldratha deck and the primary win kind of the Muldratha deck was Lab Man or Laboratory Maniac. Hey, already know where this is going.
00:44:23
ciderspence
Yeah.
00:44:24
Zachary Jeblonski
you So anybody doesn't know, and i'm glad and I'm so grateful for you that you don't know, by the way, because this is one of my least favorite cards magic. And I don't know how spell laboratory, so I'm just going to remember it from memory. But it's two and a blue. It's a human creature.
00:44:39
Zachary Jeblonski
and basically what it says is, if you would draw a card, except you can't, or you would draw a card and your library has no cards in it, you win the game. and decks that are built around this card are pretty much like, okay, we just, it's slammed with all the card and card, draw engines, all these different engines, just to power through the deck and then win by
00:44:59
Zachary Jeblonski
but without going into these gory details, it was the exact opposite of like the games that we had, where we had long games back and forth. People got to do their things. There was engines going, there was clear pass to victory for everybody. This one was very much like, okay, I'm going to take nice 10 to 15 minute turn and then not get any closer or get closer in a way that doesn't really matter and pass. and it's like, Oh God. Yeah.
00:45:27
ciderspence
Yeah, that's i mean that sounds excruciating.
00:45:28
Zachary Jeblonski
that, that is, I think what you're referring to.
00:45:30
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:45:30
ciderspence
Yes, that is exactly what I'm referring to. Yeah. Those are not fun.
00:45:34
Zachary Jeblonski
So they're not, and I, I, I intentionally avoid mechanics like that or win cons like that, or I avoid stuff like that basically. and, and any of my decks, just because I just, just, I don't know, not the vibe I'm going for. if it is your vibe while you're wrong, but,
00:45:56
Zachary Jeblonski
All right. Any other games you wanted to talk about before we get a little bit on maybe what we're working on?
00:46:00
ciderspence
No, those were the only games I got in. Did you have any store games that you wanted to shout out?
00:46:04
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, i was yeah and I was thinking about that. I don't think there's anything too crazy shout out. I think I already shouted out like, hey like, and this will probably be a topic at some point, but like, I know like not just alternate win cons, but like methods of winning that I don't like or that we don't like, you know, like Labman is one of them, you know, where I just,
00:46:24
Zachary Jeblonski
I don't know. like i'll give Here, I'm going contrast that with the other game I played at that at the store that night where somebody played the Council 4. And I've played against this deck a couple times, and I've never won against that it. is It is brutal to deal with.
00:46:39
Zachary Jeblonski
But I'll pull it up because it's not <unk>s not really a it's not a It's not a commander that's very popular, but it's it came out in a Commander Legends Baldur's Gate, but it's three white blue, the council four, human noble creature. Whenever a player draws their second card during the turn, you draw a card. Whenever a player casts their second spell during your their turn, you create a 2-2 white knight creature token.
00:47:04
Zachary Jeblonski
And this tech is just like that Maldratha deck. It is full of card draw engines. It's full of token energies. it It's like, it's just value the deck and it's so hard to deal with. Like it's crazy because all it takes is like one howling mine.
00:47:19
Zachary Jeblonski
And now, now that player is drawing not only two on his turn. Well, so basically this is how the commander gets insidious. He draws for turn draws for the howling mine. That draw creates a trigger for his own commander draw third time.
00:47:33
Zachary Jeblonski
And then every Howling Mine draw for the rest of his opponents is a draw for him. So just between, just for Howling Mine, that represents five cards a turn cycle. And, you know, so that's just give me an idea of kind of like the deck, you know, how how it goes. but but there's no lab man in that deck. He went token synergies of like, he makes the nights big. He does these other things. He doesn't do second son, you know, yada, yada. So it's like, to me, it's like, that's what I look for more. And, uh, and, and, and with the threat of becoming more rambly, the point I was trying to make was just that you can have a heart card draw synergies, but at the same time, I think create a more interesting, uh, play pattern for the pod is kind of what I'm trying to say.
00:48:19
ciderspence
Yeah, yeah i i I get that. I think we talked couple weeks ago about Mill and how people play Mill, and I was putting together my Persism Petitioner's deck.
00:48:33
ciderspence
I think I mentioned the reason that I was okay playing it. you know I played it once at a it you know what and a kind of toxic pod for toxic decks. I thought that was a kind of unique circumstance where I wanted to play it because everybody was playing, you know i think there was a
00:48:42
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:47
ciderspence
a turret in that pot or whatever. Like everybody was playing something not fun. So we all wanted to, I was like, oh, if you guys are playing not fun stuff, i'll play something not fun. But when I re-imagined the Persistent Positioners deck, it was in a self-mill way. And there is a Laboratory Maniac in that deck, but the only reason it would come into play is if I was in a position to mill myself to close to being able to draw out just as a way to additionally have an avenue to win.
00:49:10
ciderspence
yeah, I think the notion of just like non-deterministically seeing if you could get there slowly doesn't sound like fun for a table.
00:49:17
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, that's, that's the key right there. Yeah. but yeah, no, that thing that's for those games, I'm nothing too, too crazy. You stood out for me there. yeah. So why don't we get into what we're working on?
00:49:28
ciderspence
Sure. what are you working on?
00:49:29
Zachary Jeblonski
All right. So, I think I got two things that I'm, I think two things that are my main focus. I've prototyped a couple of things out, but I, you know, it's like, i like to build them out in Moxfield and then sometimes I'll build them out.
00:49:41
Zachary Jeblonski
I'll goldfish a couple of times. and I'm like, Hmm. I think this is going to stay in the electronic realm. We're not going to build this one. Maybe not soon, but I'm still trying to find a pathway for Marin and I don't know why, but I've i've kind of wanted a Marin deck for a while. Now Marin is like an old, oldie but goodie. Marin used to be the bane of a lot of commander pods back in the day. But I think, I think nowadays Marin is,
00:50:05
Zachary Jeblonski
What I would think is a more reasonable commander, Marin is not as strong comparatively and when you put look at the full pool of commanders out there. But if anyone doesn't know, Marin is too black-green. Whenever another creature you control dies, you get an experience counter.
00:50:21
Zachary Jeblonski
At beginning of your end step, you choose a target creature card in your graveyard. If that creature at that card's converted mana cost is less than or equal to the number of experience counters you have, you return to the battlefield. Otherwise, you put it to your hand.
00:50:31
Zachary Jeblonski
So it's a reanimator deck. And I've been trying to a couple different angles. And I think I talked about maybe on a previous episode of of maybe using earthbending as the primary theme. Because it's like kind of cute. Because you can sacrifice those, get the lands back, great get an experience trigger.
00:50:41
ciderspence
yeah
00:50:45
Zachary Jeblonski
like you know There's a like things you can do there. but I just didn't feel like paying the prices for, for most of the earth ending cards, cause they're kind of bananas. so I'm kind of different angles. One of the angles I'm working on now is, uh, just focusing on legendaries and legendary synergies and things like that. and a lot of black green legendaries have, abilities to sack on them, which is kind of useful because you need a lot of ways to like soccer creatures and Marin to keep the experience triggers going.
00:51:10
Zachary Jeblonski
So I'm kind of messing with that. So that that might get built. The one thing I am trying to avoid with her is there are some a couple of really annoying start strategies that you can run. and And not to go through all of them, but one of them is Spore Frog.
00:51:23
Zachary Jeblonski
And that's just the one green creature that you can sacrifice to prevent combat damage. And with Marin sport frog can get very, very annoying. Uh, because basically you, you just always have sport frog out. Somebody tries to attack you, you sack it.
00:51:38
Zachary Jeblonski
And then on your next turn, when marriage trigger happens again, you just put sport frog back out, you know? So you just kind of like make it really difficult for combat decks to deal with you. Uh, so it's just like stuff like that. I'm going to avoid doing, I just kind of want to make, I'm kind kind of, basically I'm timmying up Marin a little bit. It's just like big,
00:51:56
Zachary Jeblonski
Golgari legends, that sort of thing. so yeah, that's one of the things I'm working on.
00:51:58
ciderspence
Nice.
00:52:02
ciderspence
Nice. What else? do you have any any other ones that you're...
00:52:05
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh, yeah. So one of my favorite like mythical creatures is Minotaurs and Minotaurs.
00:52:12
ciderspence
Minotaurs? Interesting.
00:52:13
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. Minotaurs are one of the more malign typos, I will say, in Magic. There are Minotaur Legendary Commanders. It was one of the very first decks I made when I started playing Commander because when I found out there was Minotaurs in Magic, I was like, yeah, I'll do it.
00:52:27
Zachary Jeblonski
But there to be probably frank, there is just no great Minotaur commander. And Minotaurs in general, like if you look at all the Minotaurs in the game, there's there's not that many good ones, especially in like if you're limiting yourself to red-black.
00:52:54
Zachary Jeblonski
and just see, can I get this minotaur deck to the point where, it's functional and good given that minotaurs themselves are pretty bad.
00:53:05
Zachary Jeblonski
so that
00:53:06
ciderspence
what what What fun cards are you talking about? I'm i'm intrigued.
00:53:10
Zachary Jeblonski
so
00:53:10
ciderspence
What are the cards? Yeah, this this could this could make a fun topic for later. But yeah, like what are the cards that you that you don't run because they're too strong or they're not fun or whatever?
00:53:14
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah
00:53:20
ciderspence
But that which of the which of those cards are you thinking about in this deck?
00:53:20
Zachary Jeblonski
so, right, so this, uh, the, this, the, this card is the clear example of what I So, and this is be a whole topic, but just like, I don't like, I don't like fast mana magic and I don't like free spells of magic. I think it, you know, if I had it my way, there's mechanics wouldn't exist in magic because I think there should be a real cost to tapping out and like your opponent should see that and know that you're vulnerable, right? Like, So the card I'm talking about is Deflecting Swat.
00:53:50
Zachary Jeblonski
So this is two red. If you control Commander, you may cast a spell without paying mana cost, and you may choose new targets for target spell or ability. This is one is just one of the best red cards in Commander.
00:54:01
Zachary Jeblonski
it just like you know I have opinions on free spells. i don't like the philosophy, but this is just straight up.
00:54:04
ciderspence
It's very good.
00:54:07
Zachary Jeblonski
like You probably should have it in every red deck if you're really trying to be optimal or whatever. But like that's an example of like the kind of cards I'm thinking about including in this deck just because... you know Let me let me contrast contrast it with one of the better Minotaurs just to give people an idea of how good Minotaurs are.
00:54:25
Zachary Jeblonski
so I'm going to find out where is... okay yeah Here's a Minotaur. One red red Glint Horn Buccaneer haste. Whenever you discard a card, Buccaneer does one damage to each opponent.
00:54:38
Zachary Jeblonski
He's a two power four toughness and he has one red to discard a card, draw card, activate only if it's attacking. This is one of the better Minotaurs, guys. like the And the commander is Sathron, Hurlorn General.
00:54:54
Zachary Jeblonski
He's three red-red. When he or another non-token Minotaur enters the battlefield, you create 2-3 Minotaur. And then you can pay two and Rakdos hybrid mana to give your Minotaurs 1-0 and Menace and Hastel in turn.
00:55:09
Zachary Jeblonski
This is another example of like, It's, you know, he's okay, but like, you know, you compare him to other type of commanders and he's nowhere near as good.
00:55:22
Zachary Jeblonski
so yeah, that's the idea of like, okay, let me cram this deck with some more cards that I predict, you know, like I'm at the point where I might even put solar in here. Like that's the kind of like deck that I'm making. So.
00:55:31
ciderspence
This sounds amazing, and I am excited to see this. i like
00:55:34
Zachary Jeblonski
Okay. Yeah.
00:55:35
ciderspence
As as a frequent player of Commanders who who very very clearly fall into the it's okay category that you were just describing, i love seeing people play you know decks where the Commander's not overpowered and trying to make it work. It's fun to... Yeah, I'm i'm i'm excited to see your take on it. This sounds like a blast.
00:55:57
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, it's definitely, uh, I got, I'm at 107 cards now, so i'm still trimming. but,
00:56:01
ciderspence
You might even get to keep the 107 if you're running Minotaur Kindred.
00:56:06
Zachary Jeblonski
and like when I first built this deck way back when I started playing magic, I used a different commander. Neheb the worthy. He's one black, red legendary creature, Minotaur warrior, first strike, other Minotaurs, you control first strike.
00:56:14
ciderspence
Hmm.
00:56:18
Zachary Jeblonski
And as long as you have one or fewer cards in hand, Minotaurs can you control deal two Oh, And when Neheb the worthy deals combat damage to a player, each player discards a card.
00:56:29
Zachary Jeblonski
It's it bad.
00:56:30
ciderspence
Nice.
00:56:31
Zachary Jeblonski
It's so bad, but hey, you know, you take what you can get when you, when minotaurs are your type, you know?
00:56:38
ciderspence
yeah
00:56:40
Zachary Jeblonski
So yeah, that's in the process. Hopefully I can get that together maybe next time before the next play session. It does mean I would have to give up my Valgov deck, which I do like as a, this is the end of the night and we need, we need to make sure the game doesn't go run long deck, but that's okay.
00:56:57
Zachary Jeblonski
It might be nice at to see my, my horn to boys get taken a shot at things.
00:56:59
ciderspence
Yeah. this is if This is at least another aggressive replacement.
00:57:05
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, it's aggressive replacement for sure. You know, my my one threes and my two threes are coming for you.
00:57:09
ciderspence
That's right.
00:57:10
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah
00:57:11
ciderspence
Don't let him get plus two plus zero.
00:57:13
Zachary Jeblonski
Oh, God. All right. You working on anything?
00:57:17
ciderspence
Yeah, I'm working on a few more avatar decks. i have I have not even slowed down.
00:57:19
Zachary Jeblonski
Okay.
00:57:21
ciderspence
I just keep seeing more cards that I think will be fun to build around.
00:57:23
Zachary Jeblonski
That's awesome. That's fantastic.
00:57:25
ciderspence
This is a one I'm working on is Appa the Vigilant. Five white white, legendary creature, bison ally, flying vigilance, six six. Whenever alpha or another ally you control enters creatures so you control get plus one plus one and gain flying and vigilance until end turn.
00:57:39
ciderspence
So it's kind of a finisher in the command zone, which I'm excited to give a shot to.
00:57:42
Zachary Jeblonski
Okay.
00:57:46
ciderspence
I think it's going to require as many your opponents can't play turns or act abilities or can't play spells or activate abilities during your turn cards as possible. So I'll definitely need a voice of victory. I think I have a grand abolisher.
00:58:00
ciderspence
Just keep things on board so that I feel confident when I cast Appa that it's going to resolve. And then you know just kind of try to go wide and see if I can have another couple of Anthem effects to see if I can overrun the turn I cast it. So it should be a fun theme try to.
00:58:18
ciderspence
theme to china
00:58:18
Zachary Jeblonski
that Yeah, that's an that's a neat archetype of commander. i think of it off the top of my head, but I think I have a couple of commanders like that where you really don't play the commander for most of the game. You only bring the commander out when you're ready to like seal the deal.
00:58:30
ciderspence
Yeah.
00:58:30
Zachary Jeblonski
So that's kind of cool. you know That also incentivizes, like maybe I shouldn't say out loud, but probably also incentivizes maybe more board wipes than normal because it's like you're not likely going to lose your commander to your own board wipe, so you might as well run some more you know kind of thing.
00:58:45
ciderspence
Yeah, i was thinking about that. In particular, there was another commander I was looking at that also kind of has a board wipey type theme. And that is Aang, a lot to learn, two and a hybrid green-white legendary creature human avatar ally.
00:58:59
ciderspence
Aang has vigilance as long as there's a lesson card in your graveyard. And whenever another creature you control dies, put a 1-1 counter on Aang. So I was thinking, is there a non-toxic way to build this?
00:59:11
ciderspence
Because the the immediate thing I thought of was, why don't i play a lot of white weenies that give you value when they die and then have a few outlets to sacrifice them? But then I also thought, or you could just play stuff and wipe the board a lot and protect Aang.
00:59:29
ciderspence
But yeah, that doesn't sound fun. So I'm still trying to figure out what direction I want to go with that. But that's another one that's kind of in consideration.
00:59:35
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, the fact that, like, you don't have access to black and that is going to be, you know, and that's interesting. Because I think I saw this when it was just debut.
00:59:41
ciderspence
Yeah, but white white has a lot of destroy all creature stuff, so.
00:59:43
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. Yeah, but I was thinking, like, you can't, you know, there's not going to be, yeah unless you have like, a Phyrexian arena or something like that, you're not, it's going hard to find ways to, like, sack only specific creatures.
00:59:53
ciderspence
Sag Outlet's right.
00:59:54
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
00:59:54
ciderspence
Yeah.
00:59:56
Zachary Jeblonski
Green green has green is a fair amount. Yeah, there's there's things we can probably do with that.
00:59:59
ciderspence
There's some pie profile white creatures that sacrifice themselves.
00:59:59
Zachary Jeblonski
So.
01:00:02
ciderspence
Like a lot of sacrifice, this creature destroy, a target artifact, or whatever.
01:00:02
Zachary Jeblonski
That's true.
01:00:06
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, Karmic Guide and stuff like that.
01:00:06
ciderspence
and the ones that sacrifice to give indestructible... Actually, that's probably a good way to protect the Hanging stuff. yeah
01:00:12
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, yeah, for sure. All right, anything else you're working on?
01:00:17
ciderspence
Those are the main two. i I'm thinking about Avatar Roku, which is...
01:00:24
Zachary Jeblonski
Roku.
01:00:26
ciderspence
So it sounds like it wants to go on your Minotaur deck. But basically... It's not Minotaur, you're right. But I feel like it pairs well with your Minotaurs, because it just lets pay three red to pump something plus three plus zero. until out of turn so it's kind it sounds like it wants to go on your me tar deck but it basically
01:00:42
Zachary Jeblonski
But that doesn't look like a minotaur to me.
01:00:44
ciderspence
it's not a minutear you're right but i feel like it paires well with your manized cause it just lets you p three red to pump something plus three plus zero
01:00:53
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah.
01:00:54
ciderspence
And it gives you six red mana at the beginning of each combat. So I think there are lots of fun directions to take that, but I'm still in the the kind of idea generation stage for that one.
01:01:05
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, that, man, that that the triggered ability. Like, this is, it shows where my head is at as a magic player. I'm like, man, we could load that up with a whole bunch of artifact ramp stuff.
01:01:15
Zachary Jeblonski
Like, what if we had, like, a burnished heart? We could, like, ramp with it, you know? Like...
01:01:19
ciderspence
Yep, yep.
01:01:21
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah, that's actually a cool commander. I remember seeing seeing him and I kind of forgot about him, but like there's stuff you could probably do with that, which is like, man, if anybody attacks, you just have stuff on your board, you can sink that man into, you know?
01:01:36
Zachary Jeblonski
yeah, there's probably something you can do with that. Maybe someday.
01:01:38
ciderspence
Yeah, I'll figure something out.
01:01:39
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah. yeah Yeah. There's something out there. Cool. anything else you want to touch on before we wrap it up?
01:01:46
ciderspence
No, that's all I had.
01:01:47
Zachary Jeblonski
this is event yeah This has been a plate-filled, talked-filled episode. and Not a lot of news and stuff going on because, you know, ramp up for the holidays. But yeah, and thanks for joining us again, Charles and listeners.
01:02:01
Zachary Jeblonski
And I hope you guys have a good holiday.
01:02:04
ciderspence
Yeah, happy holidays. Take it easy, everybody.
01:02:06
Zachary Jeblonski
Yeah, take it easy. I'm going to delay while I move over to the outro. Okay, there we go. Oh, I'm not supposed to say what I'm doing? Oh, what my bad.
01:02:17
ciderspence
Don't telegraph your play, Zach.