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The Art of Baseball: Verbal Long Toss with Lee Lowenfish
97 Plays9 months ago
On this episode of Crawling Around My Brain, Graeme sits down with baseball historian Lee Lowenfish to discuss all things baseball, including the 2024 playoffs, whether he likes some of the new MLB rules, and why pitchers need to run more.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:36
Speaker
And welcome to the Crawling Around My Brain podcast. I'm your host, Graham Brown. It's a true pleasure to be with you here today. Before we get into the bio for our upcoming guest on the podcast, I wanted to take you back to when I was 10 years old, growing up in Avon, Connecticut, really enjoying the game of baseball, playing the game of baseball, and trying to find a way to improve my own skills.
00:01:03
Speaker
Back in those days, there was no YouTube, so there weren't videos they could watch, and there were no internet forums that told you all the secrets to becoming the best player that you could be. That job was left up to the hardworking volunteers who coached your teams, and I think it's fair to say that most of them were not necessarily experts.
The Art of Pitching's Influence
00:01:25
Speaker
Well, one fortuitous Christmas, I was given a book called The Art of Pitching with Tom Seaver,
00:01:31
Speaker
which became my Bible, my reference point of things that I could do to become the best possible pitcher at that time. And it remained on my bookshelf throughout most of my young adult life.
00:01:47
Speaker
Well, in one of those only in New York moments, when I moved back to the city, living one floor above me in my apartment building was Lee Loewenfisch, the author of that book and of four other books about America's pastime. Lee is a cultural historian and a baseball historian who has an encyclopedic knowledge of the game that we both love.
00:02:15
Speaker
I have relished many times speaking casually with Lee about his beloved Baltimore Orioles and my beloved New York Mets as we've passed each other either in the apartment ah doorway or on the sidewalk. But I really enjoyed the opportunity to sit down formally with him and ask him a bunch of questions about the game of baseball.
Interview with Lee Loewenfish
00:02:39
Speaker
In fairness, I could do this 25 times over and never touch on the same subject twice with Lee, but he was gracious enough to answer all my questions and I really enjoyed the opportunity to speak with him and I hope you enjoy hearing it. Ladies and gentlemen, Lee Loewenfish.
00:03:07
Speaker
And welcome to the podcast, Mr. Lee Lowenfish. Lee, how are you? Fine. I am an Oreo fan. I'm still wounded. I'm trying to give up the anger.
00:03:19
Speaker
I saw the collapse coming. Unfortunately, they couldn't do anything about it. But I'm a baseball fan as much as an Orioles fan and great time of year. I mean, the playoffs, boy, oh, boy, I mean, the talk about blood rivals, the Phillies and the Mets and the Padres and the Dodgers. And it's not too shabby with the with the rust belt.
00:03:42
Speaker
series with Detroit and Cleveland and the Yankees and Royals. So this is a special time of year. And and and we're talking in New York here. And but it's it's Indian summer. I mean, it's it's it's been great, you know. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I'm wearing my Mets hat, which folks won't be able to see because we'll just have the audio here. But ah that was not to rub it in. I was kind of hoping for a rematch of the what was the 69 World Series um Mets. Oh, but, um you know, I just wanted you.
00:04:11
Speaker
There was 20 teams back then, you know, or no, that it had gone up to 24. That's right. That was the first year of the of the split. the on ah Each team, each league was in had six teams. So that that was a special kind of year. And of course, it was also the year that the the next one and the Jets. So New York, New York must have been on fire.
00:04:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, well, it's it's felt great. and And I want to get into your thoughts on this postseason. But first, I want to tee it up for folks.
Books and Baseball History
00:04:46
Speaker
So Lee ah has quite a history um with baseball, and he's the author of five books about baseball. His latest book is baseball's endangered species, which is inside the draft of scouting, ah the craft of scouting, excuse me, for those who lived it.
00:05:03
Speaker
um Before that, I'm doing this in reverse chronological order. Lee wrote about Branch Rickey, baseball's ferocious gentleman, which was an award-winning book. ah It won the Choice Award from the American Library Association and the coveted Seymour Medal from Sabre, which for those that don't know is the Society for American Baseball Research.
00:05:23
Speaker
He's also ah written a book called The Imperfect Diamond, which is a history of baseball's labor wars, as well as a book that I'm very familiar with, ah with Tom Siever, which is The Art of Pitching. And his, I believe, I don't know if it was your first book, Lee, but The Professional Baseball Athletic Trainer's Fitness Book, which he wrote with the trainers of MLB. And for those- That was in the middle. That was in the middle, after the Siever book and before the the big book on Branch Rickey.
00:05:53
Speaker
So Lee, not that you need additional credentials, but i did it did catch my eye this morning um as I was pulling out your books. I have them with me here. um But you have some amazing reviews on the back here. You've got a review from Dusty Baker. This is on your most recent book, ah The Endangered Species book. You've got a great quote from Dusty Baker here.
00:06:15
Speaker
Scouts are like the blues musicians of baseball whose stories reveal the heart of the game. Lilo and Fish has dug deeply to bring these tales back to life. You also have another quote from Joe Madden, a former Major League Baseball manager. um And I know on you've got great quotes from Bud Zilig as well on your other works. So again, pretty pretty solid ah feedback. But how do you know these people? How do you come into contact with these folks?
00:06:43
Speaker
Well, i I was almost born into the game. My my father was a doctor, a dermatologist, and and among his patients were Bill Stewart, a National League umpire, ah ah like a hockey legend.
00:06:59
Speaker
ah and Baye Pinelli, who I actually got to know. And so I remember ah whenever the National League teams were in town, Baye Pinelli would come to the house and bring a ball, an autographed ball. And my sister, rest in peace, was a big Robin Roberts fan. And I got to know Robin Roberts later on. And um and I asked, she asked for a Robin Roberts ball.
00:07:26
Speaker
And i asked for an alvin dark ball because i was in new york giant fan and i can tell you exactly where i was on october third nineteen fifty one and my parents living room when bobby thompson hit the home run and i was so i was. but yeah I wasn't listening to Russ Hodgers, but I was listening to, I think, Red Barber on this big cross leaf table floor model. So that's like that's how far back I go. ah But I also ah ah have always been a reader and ah and a scholar. And so I went to a grad school in Wisconsin and was there in the 60s, but it was always going to games when I could. And I went to
00:08:10
Speaker
the I saw the but the last year of the Milwaukee Braves ah in County Stadium. I saw Don Kessinger as a rookie hitting only 171, but I said that's a major league shortstop. And you see, this is the thing, baseball and history just, they're made for each other. Because, I mean, I like the other sports, but there's nothing like baseball for the joy or the agony and the ecstasy.
00:08:37
Speaker
and And so ah the other day, the Houston won a game because Kessinger's grandson made a game-saving last-out play
Baseball's Cultural Impact
00:08:53
Speaker
when he was subbing for Jose Altuve, who had been kicked out of the game because he took a sock off to show the ump.
00:09:01
Speaker
yeah i saw that we had really been hit with. And that was called, a I guess, violation of the quorum or something like that. So I love these connections. And so I i taught in Baltimore for a while.
00:09:18
Speaker
And that's where I became an Oreo fan, although i I was at game two in 69, and I was, like most people in the country, except maybe Yankee fans, the Mets were a really um ah great story. And it was a very tumultuous ah year. I mean, Nixon had been had been elected. There were demonstrations all over the place, but baseball really pulled a lot of people together.
00:09:43
Speaker
And I moved back to New York when my after my father passed. And my father was a very good athlete, by the way. Unfortunately, the DNA chain got somewhere screwed up. And so I became Walter Mitty early. But I then, after my academic career,
00:10:07
Speaker
became but basically a bunch of ah ah adjunct jobs. I started to write and I met at the Sabre meeting. I've been in Sabre since 1976. I saw that. I met Tony Lupien and he was the Dartmouth coach. He had just retired and ah he had been the first baseman after Jimmy Fox in Boston. And we were both interested in the labor history of baseball because Tony,
00:10:35
Speaker
fought them on the Veterans Act after World War II. And ah the Veterans Act said every business in America had to give the person who had been in the war but a chance to get his job back. and a tall Tony was sent to the miners without that chance, and he didn't have the means to sue, but other people did sue, like Al Nemec, and that became a big part of the first book that we did together, The Imperfect Diamond. That that book is out ah in three editions now, and ah and the battles between labor and
00:11:15
Speaker
management continue. um and ah ah fact But ah I then started to do radio ah on here in New York, and that's, I think, one of the big breaks I had because that got me ah credentials and occasional. I mean, I knew that WBAI was not exactly NBC, so i wasn't at i but I tried to go every week or two.
00:11:44
Speaker
and I started to meet people i love to talk and ball players and coaches especially um the game is so hard. It's it's really a commitment ah be ah beyond your family especially during the city during the season and that's when and so i had some really memorable.
00:12:04
Speaker
ah and encounters. ah Bill White, I'll never forget no meeting Bill White for the first time, he was a Yankee announcer and ah he was in the Yankee clubhouse and I see Bill White doing the stiff arm because he had been a great all-around athlete. He never finished Hiram College in Ohio but I think he played both football and baseball there but then the New York Giants my team at the in the fifties signed them and then then he had the great career with the Giants and then the Cardinals on a good broadcaster and go height was saying you don't see that the that the straight arm anymore. And so ah whenever I saw him I found. um
00:12:51
Speaker
um I got something out of him and and so ah a little bit before that when I was doing radio. My friend, rest in peace, who used to live actually in your building,
00:13:05
Speaker
wow Fred Hershkowitz said that ah John Montelillon, a yeah ah packager of books, who was looking for somebody to do a pitching book with Tom Siever.
00:13:19
Speaker
ah Charlie Lau's book on the art of hitting had just come out. And so there was now an obvious interest in the art of pitching. We'll not forget this either. We met for coffee at the Algonquin, the famous Algonquin of ah Alexander Wolkard and Benchley and even Horbo Marx. And we met and we got along and I went to spring training with him.
00:13:44
Speaker
uh in in 83 and he and he had just come back to the Mets so we looked like you know that you know this could be really a a best seller unfortunately Frank Cashin didn't protect him after the 83 season he wound up with the White Sox so the book came out when it was already with the White Sox but uh i i made a couple of trips to spring training he urged me to come before the exhibition games which is a great idea because it's more relaxed and he had more time than we would occasionally meet in the in the clubhouse before ah met games this was eighty three and so um ah the art of pitching came out and ah we met we talked to steve carlton and ah i was a little bit
00:14:33
Speaker
the had some trepidation about Steve Carlton but he was very cordial um and Mario Soto and Steve Rogers who became who I had known a little bit before because ah he had been a player rep during the tumultuous years of the Players Association.
00:14:54
Speaker
And then the last one was Juan Soto, Mario Soto, ah the great changeup pitcher for the Reds. So um that came out and I
Writing with Tom Seaver
00:15:04
Speaker
continued to do my radio show. I i met with the trainers in 87. That was a memorable experience. Spring training, Arizona. And we're talking and talking and talking and the lights go out in the ballpark. And that we're the only ones left there.
00:15:23
Speaker
me and a couple of trainers and they had to bring a ladder to get us out of the ballpark. ah how I got through it. I'm here to tell you the story. so right right You survived. yeah and then ah we were ah the big Then I did the the book on Ricky, and ah which is, ah I guess, my ah the one that people know the best about. and ah It's a 600-page book and my soundbite on that book was that it's a big book about a big man. I was glad I met a lot of the family which gave me
00:16:01
Speaker
A an insight on on that and so I continue my love of baseball I'll be being been an Oreo fan was calling them the warriors for a long period until they were reborn. And, you know, ah I think you don't experience the the full experience ah full pleasure and pain of baseball until you root for a team. And so i I wish the Mets well because i' i've I've never internalized the Mets' painful history. But you've had your great moments and you still may have some more ahead, you know.
00:16:39
Speaker
Well, it's I mean, youen you covered a lot of ground there and there's a lot we could dive into and I want to. And I want to i want to tee this up because i um I'll have said something in the introduction ah when we when I published the podcast. But this is kind of a crazy coincidence. So I relocate from California to New York City and I move into my mother-in-law's apartment temporarily while we find our own place. And prior to that, when I was in California, she said, you know, there's this gentleman who lives above me and he's a baseball writer.
00:17:09
Speaker
you know You should check it out. He writes a blog and you've been writing a blog since it's tracked until from 2009, I believe. After the Ricky paperback came out, I can't believe it's 15 years now. That's incredible. so First of all, it's a great blog. and I think it's is it it's once a week or twice a week. How do you do it? yeah Whatever moves you. If I continue it and I try to to deal with the arts in New York too and it's ah pretty much ah ah of a battle for one person, but certainly it's twice a month, but lately um' I'm trying to do it you know once a week because that's where you get the most attention.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great read. And so I'd started getting your blog and I was reading it and I was like, oh, this is really cool. But I hadn't really, and then I also, Trudy Grace, ah who is my wife's mother, brought out the Branch Rickey book for me. So I had one of your books, but it wasn't until I moved to New York that I realized that you had written The Art of Pitching with Tom Seaver. And what was crazy about that is growing up,
00:18:18
Speaker
I had about three baseball books back in Connecticut. I didn't come from like a big baseball family or anything. My brother and I played, but you know, there there wasn't like I had private coaches and they were recommending different books and things like that back in the day. But one of the books that I had that taught me how to pitch was that book. And I looked at it. I was like, I cannot believe this.
00:18:38
Speaker
that that the person that wrote this book is one floor above me ah in the building I'm living in in New York. So i as I mentioned to you, I have two yearbooks in front of me. That other one is still in the apartment. I need to get your signature on it. But I i just want to let you know that There wasn't a lot of information back then, right? We didn't have the internet. I couldn't watch YouTube. There was no one besides who was in your town to teach you how to do things. And so having, I had that book and I had the Nolan Ryan ah book. And I'm not sure, you know, if you remember that one that.
00:19:11
Speaker
And we had Noah, yeah, i'm um i was ah ah I was remiss, we got Noah and Ryan in here too. yeah on the fastball yeah yeah Yeah, incredible. So that was super helpful. So um I just think that's so cool that that I don't know how the world's collided, but um that book was really important to me.
00:19:29
Speaker
and In terms of going back to your point about baseball, and it's just clear, I think it's very interesting that you have managed to turn two of your passions, history and baseball, into a career, and then have taken deep dives into areas that can help further the understanding of baseball's history, which I think is is really not known by many people. I know for me, i you um dwarf my knowledge around the history of baseball.
00:19:57
Speaker
But it's really cool to have you taking a look at the labor movement within baseball, which is still very important, right, and still impacts the way that baseball is operated as compared to other sports ah in our national dialogue. And then Branch Rickey as well, who I'm kind of curious as to what your rationale was at the time to write about Branch Rickey. But, you know,
00:20:22
Speaker
Baseball is different, I think, than most sports just because of this rich history that we have. And it's really exciting to be a Met fan, just to bring it back to present day, in a moment where i when I was growing up, the Mets won the World Series in 86 and I thought I'd have a lifetime.
00:20:39
Speaker
of this winning and besides 2000, well, if we had the subway series, we were close. And then in 2015, we were back in the series, but it's been a long time, nearly 40 years, right before we might have another crack at this. And, um, I don't know, there's just something about the ups and downs. Like you said, that really make it, make it special. If I was winning all the time, I don't think I'd love the sport as much.
00:21:03
Speaker
Well, that that's why i i I have to admit, I say it grudgingly, but some of my best friends are Yankee fans. But it's it's it's not because of that, it's in spite of that. And one of the greatest lines, and I mean, I'm such an Upper West Side chauvinist, you know, we're a block apart here.
Baseball Fandom Dynamics
00:21:26
Speaker
There used to be ah ah a great tavern restaurant, 107 West, which is now a ramen place.
00:21:32
Speaker
and um where I met my girlfriend 12 years ago. l And I i only had one visit with this fellow, Jim Carrey, who, rest in peace, he was the founder of of What do they call it? Culture studies at the um at Columbia. But he had been a journalist. He should have been the chairman of the journalism department, but he wasn't, hadn't been an academic journalist. So just a member of the department. And I had an amazing conversation with him one night at the bar at 107 West. And his story, he was both a Red Sox and a Cubs fan before they won.
00:22:14
Speaker
oh wow And he he was homeschooled at a time when it wasn't common because he he had a lot of illnesses. and And about Yankee fans, he just sort of scoffed and he said, they have an outrageous sense of entitlement.
00:22:32
Speaker
and right you know And so actually, so when they suffer a little bit here, I don't know if Kansas City can really give them a full series, but ah they haven't won anything really. They haven't won the big one since 2009. So, you know, they that if they're a little nervous now, they probably shouldn't be, but that's fine. You know, welcome to the human race, guys. and yeah And I saw this line, it was, there's a book out called No Crying in Baseball by Aaron Carlson. It's about the making of ah and the, a league of their own about the women's baseball league. And Tom Hanks is quoted in that book as saying that football is war. Basketball is struggle.
00:23:23
Speaker
And baseball is life. And that is absolutely true. Because not only do you play, I mean, they play an unaing insane, insane amount. So many games. Of regular season games. And they're gonna, one day, while you're still here, and I'm gone, they're gonna have to cut the regular season down. ah But it ain't happening, so I'm not gonna tilt that windmill. But the fact is, and that's where my love of pitching comes.
00:23:53
Speaker
The pitcher, Roger Angel said at the first, it's the only sport where the defense has the ball. You can't have a baseball game until, and that's why pitching is so important. That's why more than half the people's drafted are pitchers.
00:24:16
Speaker
because yeah as There's always someone going to get hurt, and now it's an an epidemic, and before we're done, we might want to talk about that. because i mean that lovelys Let's talk about it. yeah yeah so You mentioned a couple things, and I know you have. and that's you know ah I guess the unfortunate part is that you could talk about so many different aspects of baseball, so we'll have to get you back on and we can fix certain topics. but There's a lot to cover, but that's a really interesting one. so Two things you said.
00:24:41
Speaker
One was around how the game has changed, which is obviously something that you have an interesting perspective on.
Evolving Baseball Practices
00:24:46
Speaker
And your most recent book, um which is around scouting and the way that scouting has changed in Major League Baseball, that's that's certainly a part of this this change, right? As people have moved toward more of the statistical and video-based scouting versus the people that were in person for the history of baseball, basically. Um, but also just about people that have said, well, maybe the game's not as popular anymore. Maybe they need to shorten the regular season. Maybe they need to do so. I guess, how do you feel you can take that in any direction you'd like, but like, how do you feel in general around the health of the game? Now they've obviously made some changes, you know, with the pitch clock. Like, how do you feel about the pitch clock? Are you pro pitch clock or again? Well,
00:25:30
Speaker
I'm proud because the both the pitchers and especially the hitters were dawdling. I agree. They were milking it. Yeah. yeah and And so ah the only caveat with the pitch clock is that if there is a database, as I hope there is, about where the pitching injuries is coming from, I think that some of the players and the pitchers and their agents have said, when the game's on the line, the ah you might need a little bit more than 15 seconds to prepare your next pitch. But but the except for that, I don't mind the pitch clock. And yeah and and and even I don't particularly like
00:26:26
Speaker
the Manford Man, which was a tribute. I don't know if if the rock musician has made a comment on that, but ah if the fact is, though, that I'm pretty sure the outgoing commissioner, and he says he's leaving after 2029. Since I'm trying to be a constructive but person, I'm not going to bash him for everything. The question is, how can we make the game better,
00:26:56
Speaker
they made it faster which is i have no problem with ah but how can it be more injury free and and i do think some of these driveline clinics where a lot of the pitchers are going, and some of them are successful. A lot of them, I think, are getting injuries as a result. I mean, we got to we got to look about this. we got to And are they are they throwing too much? I mean, I do think that is really an issue. I think so, to be honest with you. And you can speak from your experience from 20 years ago, because you pitched
00:27:36
Speaker
Um, a lot, but you didn't pitch 12 months a year, right? No. Well, that's, I mean, and that's the thing. And you've written two books about this. I'm kind of curious to know if like, if you got into any of that with Siever, like what his throwing regiment was, but I think, you know, I can just speak for myself, but obviously I'm grew up in Connecticut. And so when I was pitching, um,
00:27:57
Speaker
We just didn't have the opportunity to play all year and and people weren't thinking of sports for kids as year round them. It was like you played baseball in the spring and summer, then you played something else in the fall, you know, then you played something in the winter. So I would only pitch probably.
00:28:11
Speaker
I don't know, maybe 30 games or something like that for the whole, for the whole year. Um, when I got to college, the Braves pitching staff had just been mowing people down for years. And, and one of the the things about the brave staff was they would talk about how they through simulated games, I think like every two days. So after they would start, they'd have one rest day where they do long toss, and then they would do like a simulated game.
00:28:36
Speaker
And so that kind of just got into the minds, I think, of a lot of coaches and they said, well, this is the way that we should do this. And so I remember feeling like my arm was tired and I would just get dead arm um more frequently because I was throwing so much. And that continued when i when I played in the Mets organization because it was kind of a similar model where we'd pitch live action, we would run and do long toss the day after, and then we would do another bullpen two days later. I was used to pitching, not doing anything for three days, maybe four days, and then pitching again. And I always felt like I was a little stronger. So when I look at today's game,
00:29:15
Speaker
That's my thought process. I of course have no statistical evidence to back that up. I'm not a doctor. I have no, I have no real idea, but to me, it just seems to make sense. If you're throwing so frequently, I've always felt like pitchers arms were like, had like bullets in a gun. It's like you had a certain amount and then it was just gone. Now I don't know how that explains Nolan Ryan, but I mean, I think for the most part, that's my belief. And I think if you use them all up, then you're going to, you're going to get hurt.
00:29:42
Speaker
Well, did did ah ah did you run every day? Because this is another serious christian criticism of what what's going on today. They don't they don't run. and you know The Arm and Siever made a big point about it. and and you know Unlike ro ah Nolan Ryan, who was a freak of nature. i mean You can't really judge.
00:30:05
Speaker
Siever was kind of a runt before he went into the Marines when he put on 30 pounds. And then the Dado saw him and um the and got him to USC. But but he he ran and and and and he used the lower body in the arm because the arm is so much fratile so much more fragile. and And so this, I mean, why they're breaking down is really a important question. And I think ah A lot of it goes back to to that so now these, ah
00:30:44
Speaker
but these like the name is a- The drive line? Yeah, and also what the ah where the kids are, the only way they'll be drafted, and they've cut the draft to 20 rounds,
00:30:56
Speaker
Only way you're going to be drafted is that if you throw 90 to 95 miles an hour or or project to do that, you know? Yeah, it's it's so funny and and we could do a deep dive on this. But what's interesting about you mentioning the legs and running is that, um, you know, I played against this guy, Carl Pavano, who wound up playing in the major leagues for awhile. And at the time I'd heard that a scout said to him, Hey, you throw like,
00:31:23
Speaker
mid 80s, if you want to take it up, you know, to try to get to 90, you should start running three miles a day. And he started doing that. And then the next year he was throwing like 93 to 95 miles an hour or whatever it was, he got drafted and he wound up making his way all the way to the big leagues. I know he's not everyone's favorite player, nor was he mine necessarily. But ah the point is also, I don't know, you know, if you look at baseball back in the day, look at Tom Seaver, he was like a drop and drive pitcher, like the leg of his pants.
00:31:51
Speaker
was dirty. And that's actually how I pitch because I read your book. So that's how I pitch all the way through high school. And then I worked with a kind of new age ah thinker, a man named Bill Thurston, who I have a lot of respect for. He coached at Amherst for many years. But he um really was one of the first people that I saw that was using like video cameras to um Record pictures and then he would make adjustments based on what he saw and his big thing was like reducing movement, you know, so so trying to try not to throw your body off of offline because You know when you have a lot going on with your hands going over your head or you're dropping down
00:32:29
Speaker
you know, it's ah harder to throw strikes, which is true. As soon as I worked with him, I started throwing more strikes. But what I realized is I was no longer using my body like I used to. When I would pitch before, I felt like everything was in kind of in concert, right, as I was throwing it to the plate. And I became just throwing with my arm. And I think that's how they teach a lot of people, and it just puts so much pressure on your shoulder and elbow. And I think it's so funny, because when you watch some of the pitchers throughout history, they have very unique windups, right? And very unique deliveries. And I feel like
00:33:02
Speaker
This is something where, I don't know, this might go to your thoughts around just using statistics as like the be all end all. But to me, there's like something that's artistic about playing sports, especially around pitching. And not everyone has to do it the same way to be effective. Just watch one playoff game right now and you'll see four or five different pitchers all doing it in a unique way. So I kind of think they've, they've lost that like these drive lines. I don't know. I've never worked in drive line. but No, I know I think and it's not just drive like I mean that there are ah imitators All over the place, you know, and and you know, i've I've often wondered, you know if branch Ricky were alive, you know a He would be talking
00:33:48
Speaker
about it. You talk about 24-7-B65. I don't think he can sleep. I mean, because he'd be in so demand. you know But but i mean I have a section in the book that really, um and also in the scouting book, where yeah it is a simple game.
00:34:09
Speaker
and and you don't want to overcomplicate it. it you know i mean He would love the new information. i mean He did that story when he was not having success with the Pirates that Alan Ross helped him make about ah a computer a computerized way of figuring out ah what's important in baseball and you know the old line about county mac said that seventy five percent of baseball is pitching and he came up with this computerized version that was twenty five percent you know and a lot of them and i don't i haven't used the word nerd here it's thrown around to casually now but
00:34:49
Speaker
But I understand because I'm i'm more old school, the new school. I mean, they are overcomplicating a game that it's it's see the ball, hit the ball and and ah and also ah know when the big moments of the game are happening and don't hide from them. Don't hide from it. And so um ah It's such an important subject, and the point that you just made about it is a game of individuals.
Individuality in Pitching
00:35:18
Speaker
And you're so right. I mean, Burns came up big and huge for the Orioles, but he pitches the whole game from a stretch. And you see that a lot now.
00:35:29
Speaker
And I understand why because they're trying to take out excess movements. Right. But on the other hand, when you work from a full mind, a full wind up, it's not only aesthetically pleasing to the fan, but you're getting you're getting your body in sync, you know, and right I mean, talk about encounters.
00:35:52
Speaker
I met Paul Bird on a plane. You remember Paul Bird? I do, yeah. YRD. He was a journeyman pitcher, but he pitched for a lot of teams and he couldn't he couldn't believe I wrote the art of pitching because he had used it. you know and Oh, really? Nice. and He was really the last to use a full wind-up. I think Lugo, who will pitch tonight, yeah he or no, it's Reagans tonight.
00:36:18
Speaker
ah logo is almost I mean, it's not a full wind up, but he has more parts to it, you know, and so I The thing is that You have to and that's why pitching is so hard Graham because you really have to know yourself, you know, and yeah well, do you think I mean you one thing about What you just talked about I think is interesting in that, you know baseball, it bothers me when the media talk about how baseball is like a dying sport or that it's, you know, that the younger generations aren't into it or whatever. And I try to be unbiased because like you, the pitch kind of thing is a great thing. I think for a few, but maybe a decade,
00:37:07
Speaker
It was getting to the point where the internal rules that used to um help a game along, meaning if someone stepped out multiple times, you know Pedro Martinez would drill you. So there was an incentive to stay in the box. um you know Some of the game used to police itself, but when that went away, people were taking advantage of it and the games were dragging on. and But frankly, I think the issue is more around people to your point over complicating the game, which took away its beauty. When I see these games and there's like guy on first and second and no one's even thinking about bunting and it's not even a threat to do it. And I'm like.
00:37:43
Speaker
As a someone who pitched that drove me crazy when someone would find cuz you gotta know who's covering what the third baseline is covering the first baseline is the short stop gonna rotate the third what's gonna happen. You know are we gonna do a pick off play the second base there's all this stuff within the game that makes baseball interesting if you distill it down to just.
00:38:00
Speaker
let's throw as hard as we can and then let's try to hit home runs. Yes, it's less interesting. But if you just play the game with all of the different you know ways that you can accomplish the same goal and have your team fine-tuned for that, that makes it interesting. And I also just think in general that that idea that baseball is less popular or something feels overblown because having gone to a bunch of Mets games this year, and you know, certainly it's expensive to do and the stadium wasn't full every time, but there were a lot of people there from all different age groups. And it seems to me like at some point the national media stopped talking about baseball and that has kind of made their
00:38:42
Speaker
um like prognosis, if you will, come true. Because if they're not talking about it and we don't have people like, I listen to Bill Simmons and you all he talks about is NFL and NBA all the time, then yes, you're not going to reach as many fans. But I feel like the product is really good. And I feel like, yes, it's supported more regionally, but I just have a hard time believing that people don't enjoy it as much as I do. and So I'm a little biased.
00:39:08
Speaker
attendance is up, especially in cities where there is a good team. you know One other thing, I don't know what kind of hitter you were, but you hit. Not very good. and and the the thing then and This has had a big effect on pitching. when The DH now is universal. and The biggest ah negative to that is when pitchers don't hit, they forget how hard it is to hit.
00:39:37
Speaker
even when you're good. And so that might be another factor you know where are the injuries. because you know And and you it's so easy to say you know that when you're in a jam, you should try easier and not harder. But but but i'm I'm sure, or but my my educated guess is, and I'm certainly willing to accept data that that disagrees with this, but When you're throwing too hard, that is where they end the injuries occur. and ah it the And it's such a precious talent pitching. ah ah it it It disturbs me. and and
00:40:17
Speaker
the but But look at some of the best pitches, right? Growing growing up, I threw fastballs. And this is to your point, like the game has become like radar guns as opposed to pitching, right? It's just how hard can you throw? And yet the best pitches for most of these guys are their changeups, right? Because hitters still have a hard time. it's You're deceiving the hitter. There's more to pitching than just throwing fastballs. And I remember coming up and people saying you should learn to change up. It'll be helpful. And when you're striking people out with fastballs, it doesn't You know, you, it's just hard to throw a pitch that could be slower and someone could hit it. But then when you get to a certain level, even in rookie ball, uh, if you had a good change up, you would dominate because it's really hard for a hitter to pick up on. And I think people lose that element. There are some guys that still do it. Like I know on the Mets, Jose Cantana throws like 90 and he's very effective because he places the ball and he throw it mixes speeds. But for the most part, you don't see that.
00:41:12
Speaker
uh, as much anymore, which is, which is disappointing. Um, let me ask you a question. Uh, I've already been asking you a lot of questions. Let me ask you another question more specific. So in terms of this, and I know you've had other, you've been on other podcasts and you've, you've talked about this, but in terms of your thoughts of like, what's the right blend, you wrote an entire book about the importance of scouting and the history of scouting really. So what's the right blend between scouting, uh, having, you know,
00:41:41
Speaker
I guess ah we'd say in my business, like eyes on glass, but you know, having someone there in person watching, studying someone and statistical data, like what's the right blend in your mind?
00:41:52
Speaker
Well, it's a that's ah that's that's the $64 million dollars question. on right It's it's ah eyes and ears. um I mean, I love the line. and it's it's I heard it, I think, first from ah Brian Lamb, who I've yet to meet, but worked closely with Omar Manaya and Sandy Johnson, who I did get to know a bit is that God gave you two eyes, two ears, and one mouth. and that Listen and and ah all open your eyes and don't and don't talk that much. you know and and the ah The other thing is from the the Scout I quote early on in the book that I that i yeah
00:42:37
Speaker
I talked to on the phone before he passed ah Julian Mock about the four questions. It's the four questions he asked of scouts before he recommended they be hired, but it's about players too.
00:42:51
Speaker
I mean, or or do you love the game? And so if you love the game, that means you accept it's going to eat you up. That's another great quote. I mean, are are you willing to work harder than you've ever worked before? Again, I mean, some scouts I've talked to, many actually, think their greatest achievement is to have a family life because of the the what the the game demands in terms of travel and anxiety.
00:43:19
Speaker
yeah Are you willing to learn and it's not necessarily a book learning but it's. Can you look in the mirror and say I'm doing something wrong I gotta change you know and then maybe in some ways the most important thing I can you laugh every day.
00:43:39
Speaker
I mean, because I mean, I don't know any, as I say, I like the other sports, but I mean, but I mean, baseball at its heart is cruel. I mean, you hit a long drive right at somebody.
00:43:53
Speaker
and it could be a double play, you break your bat and get it to a run single that wins the game. you know right and you know when you watch And when you watch the reactions to people, i mean because um ah although they now have ah helmets from Germany, you know Strauss. yeah Yeah, I was wondering what that was. yeah the ah there're there You see the face and and you know there is a human reaction, pro and con on ah on every hit bat. So when you're scouting, that's where the magic word of makeup is comes in. i mean how How do you handle the v the vagaries of the game that are going to happen?
00:44:38
Speaker
in a long season maybe within a given game. yeah know So stats are fine, you know but but and the um ah ah you can't, i mean the and and the yeah the Yankees have actually developed some players that they've done some pretty good scouting on. I mean, Cabrera has turned out to be an extremely bad but ah valuable guy for them. and So i mean so you the key though is you have to know makeup,
00:45:08
Speaker
and and and in terms of a winning Major major League team. You have to ah have that balance between veterans and and ah super ah budding superstars. I mean, you can't do it with with with one alone, you know. And to me, the saddest thing is that because they don't have the, ah they they think baseball is easy, a lot of the new owners are looking for the quick
Misunderstandings of New Owners
00:45:36
Speaker
fixes. I mean, ah the late Red Foley had this great line that he heard from Bill Beck about,
00:45:42
Speaker
And owner buys the team. Well, example, Steinbrenner in 73. I don't know sports. i'll let the people um I'll let the people run. In six months, they think they know everything, you know. right all right That's happened with Steve Cohen and it's happened with ru with Rubenstein. And, ah you know, they come out, they throw hats.
00:46:02
Speaker
They go with Mr. Splash. They sit with the 7th Avenue group, what I mean, the seven train group. But it's a grind. I mean, and it's hard. It's hard. I mean, especially nowadays when we have and people think money can solve everything. And it's certainly in baseball that it doesn't. So I think I've answered the question. It's got to balance. But since there's so many teams buying into um analytics, I think ah the the more they bring back experienced people who know the game, the better the better things will be.
00:46:46
Speaker
It's interesting because I wish I had known you, uh, going through the draft process, um, both, both in high school, I was drafted by the A's and then and at a college with the Mets, but I would get questionnaires, personality tests in the mail, you know, get them from the Blue Jays, the White Sox. They would just come in the mail. They'd ask me to fill out a bunch of questions and they'd be like, would you take $3 if it was leftover on the cash register, like random questions. And at the time I was like,
00:47:12
Speaker
I mean, I knew what they were trying to do, but in my head, I was also trying to answer the questions the way I thought they wanted them to be answered. And then when you would meet the Scouts in person, they would actually spend a lot of time talking to you, the ones that I was talking to about things other than the game that they just watched. They would ask about like your school, how about your family? And i can I could tell they were trying to get a read on how is this person going to do when they get into an environment where their parents aren't around, they're in the middle of some small town, things aren't going well, you know they really try to get into that, um almost like how resilient are you? because That's a magic word too, absolutely. yeah
00:47:52
Speaker
and i think and then i And as I recall, you know one of the things about um a lot of the Dominican players that I played with was that that was kind of pre-programmed in because they had come from a pretty rough situation. And so they it felt like the little bumps in the road, and I know this isn't universally applicable, but I just remember feeling like You know, they, they knew what this opportunity was and they were going to do everything possible. Whereas I will, you know, just be honest, as I was in the outfield, sometimes shag and fly balls in Kingsport, Tennessee, I was like, well, you know, my friends are all in New York city. That'd be kind of fun to go do that. You know, you really have to be committed to the, committed to the game. Uh, I remember actually my brother's college roommate was Michael Young who played for the Texas Rangers and he's in the Rangers hall of fame. And I remember meeting him before when he was at UC Santa Barbara.
00:48:44
Speaker
And we talked about baseball and I said, well, you know, Mike, what are you going to do if baseball doesn't work out? And he was like, what do you mean baseball not work out? He's like, this is it. Like I'm going to be a baseball player. And I think that there's something, you know, you have to have that mentality if you're going to grind it out and make it. And then also you have to have that mentality once you get there, because even the best players, uh, are going through ups and downs constantly, even within the same game. So there's really, you know, people say baseball is 80% mental.
00:49:13
Speaker
And I used to think, Oh, that means you have to think about what you're doing at every moment. And I, I don't think that, I think what what they're saying is that it's, you have to be able to let the bad stuff go, you know, stay in the moment, not beat yourself up. It's a very mental, mentally challenging game. i had But anyway, I had credentials for the 86 world series and I then, and I remember talking and as and earlier in the season also, and I remember talking to Ray Knight.
00:49:43
Speaker
And Ray Knight was one of those, uh, players who that had that confidence and, and, and, had and, and the way he put it and it's very apt, you know, I might, I might strike out five times in a game, but when I'm up there the sixth time, I'm expecting to get a hit, you know, yeah easier stuff than done Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I also, this is maybe apocryphal, but I was, I didn't, I wasn't, I was just sitting.
00:50:11
Speaker
in the tent in the outfield, ah knowing my place in the media. But I was in the clubhouse after Buckner made the error. And I've heard that Mike Torres was was covering the game for Boston or some station. And I've heard he he he murmured, and now they got somebody else to blame. So. Oh, my gosh. And that's where that's where you you know you hope that the ah
00:50:44
Speaker
that that whoever wins these these playoffs, you know, it's a clear win, you know, and maybe even yeah a single up the middle because, I mean, who who the really but blames um Mariano for giving up the hit to Gonzalez that that that trickled through on McCarff, who sort of predicted it on the air. But, I mean, you give up a long home run and, right You're marked in the minds of passionate, over emotional fans forever.
00:51:19
Speaker
Yeah. So hold on Lee, were you in the 86 Mets clubhouse after the Booker game? Uh, I was, no, we were I was, I was, I was in the media room. I wasn't in the data house, but I was in, I was in the clubhouse after, um, they lost to the Yankees. That was the last time in 2000. And Mike Pratt was, um, um,
00:51:46
Speaker
ah talking about spring training is around the corner. It it was, was it Mike, the backup catcher, Todd pra tod tod Pratt, Todd Pratt, who later was part of the ah the of the Mitchell report, you know, for but yeah but he had been a big part of that. So yeah, no, I did that show. I have a lot of ah fond memories of doing that show.
00:52:10
Speaker
I interviewed Hank Aaron because I knew a big ah supporter of of star drill and Aaron. And he said he liked playing in New York because the fans were always fair. And so it was that's incredible. Yeah. I want to ask a question about this. um You mentioned Hank Aaron, so I'm thinking of Hall of Fame. I actually have a couple Hall of Fame brochures from the last couple of years on my table, although I will self-report that I've never been to the Hall of Fame. Recently, we had ah Pete Rose pass away.
00:52:50
Speaker
um And I know that's a topic that gets kicked around a lot. You're a historian of the game. I'm not going to ask you necessarily if you think Peter should be in the hall of fame or not. You can answer that if you'd like to, but more just where does Rose kind of stack up in your, I never really got to watch
Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame
00:53:06
Speaker
him play. He was ah in ah in the end of his career when I was coming into baseball. So help me put Pete Rose and his passing into context. Well, I was at the game when he broke time, Tommy Holmes, his record, a national league of record.
00:53:20
Speaker
And i I got to know Tommy Holmes a little bit, a wonderful man ah who was Darryl Strawberry's ba batting coach ah when Darryl was willing to listen. oh wow so And Tommy Holmes great story because he was considered a successor. ah Well, he he was a Yankee, but Joe DiMaggio came along, and so he wound up in the with the Boston Braves. But I'm i'm at the game when ah Rose breaks the record. And to give you a sense of how the ah the fans that Pete Rose um ah drew,
00:54:01
Speaker
there was somebody holding up a sign at that game, ah after the game, evidently, I saw Pete Rose do it. And the fact of the matter is that, and didn't and I mean, the the the private life that Pete Rose lived is is it's beyond. They said that Leo DeRocher's life was the was the Horatio Alger, as written by Mickey Spillane.
00:54:31
Speaker
well And I don't know if your audience remembers Mickey Spillane as a down and dirty not novel writer, but I mean, Rose was, to call Rose a low life and is is is is not, and I mean, I don't like touching them, but the part the the issue, and the key issue of the Hall of Fame does have the character clause. Now, a lot of people don't, you know, think it belongs there. And I understand the black writers who,
00:55:02
Speaker
push for integration that helped Jackie Robinson break the line, said, I mean, you've got kleptomaniacs in there. I mean, Cobb's been tied as being revisited ah now, but but he he was not exactly a model citizen. So and but Rose flaunted it. i mean and And so ah many people doubt as long as the his the um the membership of the leadership of the Hall of Fame is there. hes You he won't get in. I mean, and I talk about flaunted. I mean, they would have induction weekend and Pete would be um selling things right there in front of the front of the Hall of Fame. As a player, he was the lifeblood. He was the leader, the spiritual leader of a great team. I mean, it also had Morgan, of course, and Bangor.
00:55:59
Speaker
and And they all liked him as a player, but I mean, it's I guess it's you'd call it a tragic story because he he didn't know, he he thought he was ah immune from normal life because he was Pete Rose.
00:56:17
Speaker
Yeah. I ah i always felt, I agree. I think it's it's really tragic because um I think of it, and again, I haven't been to the baseball um Hall of Fame. I understand the character clause. ah By the way, I plan on rectifying that. I need to go to the baseball. fan I think it's great. I was just thinking, remarking how ridiculous as it is that I haven't been. Well, it sure is going in this year, boy. That's going to be a mob, boy. I tell you, I mean, deservedly so. Yeah.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think it's just weird considering that I could bring my children to a place and try to explain the history of this game and have certain people, especially the people that I grew up with, right? Clemens, Bonds, all these guys, and not have them in there. Now, someone is correcting me and said, well, the statistics are in there, like Pete Rose's hits are in there. You can see his- And also, I think he's got a lot of memorabilia in there too. I mean- Okay.
00:57:08
Speaker
so it's still So that's really not an argument then, basically. that like they're They're represented there. They're just not enshrined there, maybe, is the is the difference. ah But it is a little strange because I go back and forth on that. like I don't know how we wipe out an entire decade plus of baseball that I watched with my own two eyes and participated in. ah um You see the the bit the other strong argument against him being in ah because of the betting thing. i mean you know it's right yeah right He so much on the reds to win.
00:57:43
Speaker
but But he didn't like mike ah ah ah Bill Gollickson. He didn't think Bill Gollickson could win. And so he didn't bet that day. So what are you telling the betters? I mean, that's how much he bet. That's pretty funny. Poor Bill Gollickson digging strays.
00:58:01
Speaker
um You don't have a Hall of Fame vote, do you? No, no. What do we have to do to get you a Hall of Fame vote, Lee? Because you should be on that list. Well, it's controlled by the writers. And I think that there are radio and TV people who see as many games as the writers. And to get the full viewpoint, I wouldn't be averse.
00:58:30
Speaker
ah to to to having them allowed, but but the writers would not like that. So, I mean, it ultimately becomes so political. And I've, because of some of the writers, I've really come to respect a lot. They insist the Hall of Fame is not a popularity contest, but certainly if you're friendly with the writers,
00:58:51
Speaker
your chance getting in or better than if you just ignore them. you know Right. That makes sense. um Well, I, you know, we've got a few minutes here before we wrap and I wanted to say, I should have apologized at the beginning. Having you on because of your depth of knowledge around baseball is top i really next time i have to focus my questions because i could ask you just about anything and i know you have a perspective on it so we're gonna have to do this again for sure but i want to ask you where i see in the playoffs right now unfortunately the o's are out.
00:59:26
Speaker
Uh, my Mets suffered a loss last night. Um, that's okay. I feel like we're just playing with house money at this point. What do you think, what's your prediction for the way things are going to shake out for both the AL? Let's start with the AL. Well, it's, I think.
00:59:44
Speaker
It looks like the Yankees and Cleveland. ah And I mean, the Tigers are an amazing story, but I mean, you can start an opener so many times. And and if you're using seven pitchers a game, the odds are one or two is not going to happen. And that's another thing we did.
01:00:02
Speaker
ah The opener, I mean, I respect what the Rays have done, but they have brought into baseball some dubious things, the opener being one of them, and the idea of splitting the franchise with Montreal, which was... Anyway, so it looks like the Yankees and Cleveland, and Cleveland, I i would love it. They haven't won since 1948. They've contended.
01:00:25
Speaker
but um The National League is going to be interesting because and i don't um because the Padres are not afraid of the Dodgers, but they just lost. They're afraid of their fans. Oh, God. ah You know, i I know other people who it's so noisy out there, you know, and and their ah their frustration, Chris, their fan base is just ah we're going to we'll win the division and we'll lose in the playoffs. That's 12. Right.
01:00:53
Speaker
it suck You know, um I mean, yeah you could be in in Pittsburgh, which is a great baseball town. But they they need another owner. But all right, so in the National League, I think that it's very hard, but I'll go out on the limb. And all um it could be the Phillies and the Padres and for this for the season. but Here, let me say this, because Michael K. wants it, and so much of the media want it. I'll say the Yankees and the Dodgers in the World Series, and and maybe I'll watch, maybe I won't.
Playoff Predictions and World Series
01:01:34
Speaker
ah
01:01:36
Speaker
but i it's it but but you know things are going it's It's so tight, it's really good it's really good for for baseball, but it it isn't good that the highest pay payrolls are are here, but you know that's that's a complicated story to say the least.
01:01:55
Speaker
that's the um That's the part where we could dive into the labor, the labor stuff that you had you, that you wrote about, right? We can get into the, ah reason the the unions are so strong and the salaries are so high and all that stuff. Well, I will say, yeah, it's a unique union. Let's put it this way. I mean, and, uh, if Marvin Miller had retired earlier, uh, we, it might've been a better situation, but on the other hand, I mean, in terms of the fan, I mean, a doctor once told me, and I think it's true.
01:02:25
Speaker
You got the owners, the players, and the fans. If two of the three are happy, that's what you can expect. The owners and the players are happy. The fans are going to get it up the Unilever, but they'll come back.
01:02:39
Speaker
you know so And we will come back. um Well, that's what's made the the Tigers ah story so cool. Cause I think their payroll is like $16 million dollars for the entire team. And that's less than um like one of the players on the Dodgers so or many, most of these teams actually.
01:02:57
Speaker
So um I'm going to say it's probably I can't say it won't be the Mets. So I'll say ah we're looking at a subway series again. But um I think it's if it's not the Mets, it'll be the Padres. I think the Padres look pretty good. Well, yeah the fascinating thing is that there's only one lights out closer in this whole thing, at least on the basis of the regular season. And that's clausé for Cleveland. But the end of handles him in the past.
01:03:26
Speaker
and And I don't think the Royals are going to roll over. I mean, I said in the blog that Bobby Witt reminds me of what but Ricky said about Willie Mays, the secret to his success is the frivolity in his bloodstream. I mean, you know, now the Yankees handled him very well, although the first at bat, you know, Judge made a made a great catch on him, you know, but watch him. He's he's laughing, you know, I mean, yeah.
01:03:51
Speaker
And, but not at anybody, he's laughing at the joy of being there, you know, so, but yeah, I saw that great, great quote, by the way, from your most recent v blog post. Um, I did catch that. So, all right. Well, we'll have to check back in and see how our predictions stacked up. Um, but Lee, I am, I promise that I will, uh, Badger you for that autograph, uh, for the Tom Siever pitching Bible. Um, I know where to find you. You're not too far away from me. You might say so.
01:04:21
Speaker
In fact, you know, if I had an arm, I could almost lob you from here. So, hey, it's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure. Great way. Thank you so much for coming on. yeah Absolutely. We'll get you on again another time. Thanks, Lee. Appreciate your time. Likewise. Thank you.