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#19 - Markus Poschenrieder - From Law to GovTech: Digitalizing Social Services
31 Plays15 days ago
Why do 90% of social benefit applications in Germany contain errors? And how can digitalization, user-centric design, and smart automation transform this cumbersome, costly system?
In this episode, I talk with Markus Poschenrieder from LeistungsLotse about their mission to guide citizens through the "jungle" of social benefits and reduce administrative overload. We explore how fragmented legislation and decentralized data create a maze of bureaucracy where people apply incorrectly or don’t apply at all, leaving many eligible benefits unclaimed and municipalities overwhelmed.
Key insights include:
- The real-life impact of administrative “ping pong” and incomplete applications costing municipalities €260+ per case.
- How LeistungsLotse's rule-based online platform centralizes information, validates applications for inconsistencies, and pre-fills required documents to streamline the process.
- The delicate legal boundary between providing information and giving personalized legal advice, and why automation in this space must stay strictly rule-based.
- The challenges of legacy software and contracting in public administrations, plus the growing openness now emerging towards innovative startups.
- Accessibility and language as crucial factors for inclusive digital services, to ensure that the system serves everyone fairly.
- The ideal future vision: no need to apply, just data-driven automatic benefit allocation with clear, user-friendly communication.
If you want to understand the governance, tech, and legal complexities behind social benefit digitalization, and why this desperately needed change is both an enormous challenge and opportunity, this conversation is for you.
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Transcript
Introduction to Bureaucratic Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, what's up everyone? This is Ajmal Savary and welcome to another podcast episode. How complicated can it really be to apply for social benefits and why does the system still feel like a maze that few can navigate?
00:00:12
Speaker
In this episode, I sit down with Markus Poschenrieder from Leistungslotse to explore the deeply bureaucratic challenges surrounding social aid in Germany. We dive into why so many applications are rejected or mishandled, what digital tools can realistically do to ease the burden for both citizens and administrations, and the delicate balance between providing information and legal consulting in an age of AI.
00:00:36
Speaker
If you've ever been frustrated by red tape or wondered how technology and government can better serve their people, this conversation offers insights into why it's such a complex issue and where change might finally come from.
00:00:50
Speaker
Enjoy.
The Mission of Leistungslotse
00:01:06
Speaker
Hey everyone and welcome to another podcast episode. If you're new here, my name is Ajmal. I'm a neuroscientist and entrepreneur. On this podcast, we explore the links between science, technology, business and the impact they have on all of us.
00:01:21
Speaker
Today we talk to Markus Poschenrieder. Markus is the founder of Leistungslotse, a startup focused on making social benefits more accessible through digital solutions. With a unique blend of legal, business and technical expertise, he brings an entrepreneurial mindset to tackling social challenges, especially in creating sustainable business models that have real social impact.
00:01:43
Speaker
His background spans from working in major law firms to driving business development and international legal practices, giving him a well-rounded perspective on combining structure and agility to solve complex problems.
00:01:56
Speaker
All right, enough background. Let's get into it, shall we? Markus, it's great to have you. Thanks. I must say first a big thanks to Rethinking Places and to the Bitkom because we are guests at the, I always say smart city convention, but it's a smart country convention.
00:02:14
Speaker
Trying to think a bit bigger in Berlin for a change. And they were kind enough to host us in a Well, soundproof podcast booth right at the conference center.
00:02:27
Speaker
It's quite new experience to me. Absolutely. I mean, that's apparently where it should go with Germany, a bit more high professional, very sovereign. And ah it's very great also that it's being hosted by a new ministry for digitalization. So this is a very new experience to all of them.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah. um So, I mean, let's get started. it's so we We have one and a half hours, so let's make the most out of it. Now, you're here at the Bitkom because you guys from Leistungslotsä were invited to pitch, to present, to showcase what you have.
00:03:02
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about Leistungslotsä. Yes, thanks. Let's probably start best with the with the problem and the structure that is underlying it. ah in Particularly in Germany, we have dozens of social benefits and application procedures which are very bureaucratic and mostly completely overwhelming for the people.
00:03:20
Speaker
So um on the other side, we have administrations that receive those applications and ah which are mostly wrong. So ah on the one side, we make it easier with Leistungsloser as an online service for the users or for the citizens to apply for social benefits and find the right benefit. But the actual added value for the public is ah that they apply directly in a correct way for the correct application. So that's the business case. um We actually lower the amount of um working time for the municipalities particularly and add value to the so the citizens, of course.
Complexity of Social Benefits in Germany
00:03:57
Speaker
So these these social benefits that you're talking about, can you can you give us a few examples? I mean, it's worldwide known. Germany is the bureaucratic country number one. It's a pain in the ass for the people that live here. And it's a pain in the ass for the people that come and try to live here. And I even think it's a pain in the ass for the people in the administration.
00:04:17
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely correct. I mean, mostly when you go into the to the municipalities who are actually administrating all those applications, they feel the pain every day. And um the citizens, I think, I don't need to to tell anybody in Germany, we're talking about citizens allowance, living allowance, social aid, ah parental allowance. So there are so many types of them.
00:04:38
Speaker
There are really just the state funded social benefits. We have around 30 to 40 different types of benefits. and um they are completely decentralized. So when I don't already know what I'm supposed to apply for, I have no idea. I'm somewhere but lost in this jungle.
00:04:55
Speaker
And to found my way through this jungle, we created Leisens Luts, which translates basically to social guide or to to to benefits guide. We guide through this complete jungle to help people understand what is the correct application for what ah living situation that I'm in. and the bureaucratic barriers, we can make it easier for the people to understand what ah the state needs from them um by UX, for instance, on the one side, but also centralizing those benefits.
00:05:28
Speaker
But we cannot make the applications themselves easier because they are regulated. So that's there there we go a bit into thedministr to the legislative part But can you can you walk us a little bit through it? So there there are all these social benefits um that I potentially have access to or i can I can request. um Is there, i mean, if I'm a tourist and I go somewhere else, there's an info point where I can go and ask a question. Is there something like that in Germany in a sense of um what can I actually apply for? What is out there to apply for? Or is something like that just not existent in the first place?
00:06:09
Speaker
There are places like that. Mostly ah there are social counsellings run by, ah for instance, non-profit organizations like Caritas, Red Cross and so on. So mostly people are really in need, they go to those social counsellings that consult them, what could you get, and then help them filling out the form.
00:06:26
Speaker
literally written forms. And when it comes to state, they don't, they rarely so support in this way. So there are social administrations and to which I can go and which I have actually also the obligation to consult you and help you and advise you.
00:06:43
Speaker
but This kind of advisory is often very restricted. So it's often bound to the ah social benefits they are and they are in charge of. So they say, ah this is none of the applications or none of the benefits that we are in charge of.
00:06:58
Speaker
Maybe it's them. Maybe it's the living allowance authority. So you need to go to them. And which is also obviously not very satisfying for the people. And in in the end, due to due frustration, it's that they simply applied for any type of benefit.
00:07:13
Speaker
And in the end, they get denied and are very frustrated. even... even
00:07:21
Speaker
Even if I try to get something, there is a fair chance that I'll be just handed over from one department. And I'm saying department for simplicity's sake. Basically from from one room to the next, like, hey, you first have to do that.
00:07:34
Speaker
And then I go there and then they send me somewhere else. And those people also send me somewhere else. And then at some point I was like, fuck this. We even have a term for this. It's called administrative ping pong. And that's ah pretty much what it is.
00:07:46
Speaker
So ah ah you should go to them. You should go to them. And ah ah of course, in the end, you basically you um basically keep all those administrations busy with that.
00:07:57
Speaker
So instead of that they can take care of the people who are actually entitled to their to their benefits, they're busy with um denying the people that are actually not entitled with it. because let's give a but Let's give an example. um There was one person, let's call him Dieter. He applied for living allowance. You heard of it? um he um He cannot work. he is um He has some sort of disability and he applies for living allowances. The administration starts with, I need all of the recipes and all income recipes, your whole living situation. I need to know everything around this.
00:08:33
Speaker
And he's collecting all the documentation and gives it to them. And then they say, ah ah Wait, you have no income at the moment, so ah you you are not entitled to living allowance, maybe to citizen's allowance. So you go to them, citizen's allowance, then the same procedure from the beginning.
00:08:48
Speaker
I make my application, he makes this application, he brings in all those certificates. And in the end, they say after a long consultation and checking all those in ah all those income or all those documents, they say, no, you're actually not able to work. So you should go and apply for social aid.
00:09:05
Speaker
And those are real cases. And in the end, he keeps three administrations busy for hours and is completely frustrated and doesn't get his actual benefit. And those people then really come to the point of complete poverty. So any they rely on getting some sort of money either from the state or simply they're really going to friends, families and friends and say, you do you need to support me until I get any money from the state.
00:09:31
Speaker
Yes, that is insanely frustrating. And I mean to sound cynical, Some people might say that is by design, so you don't get the aid because that's at some point how it actually feels like.
00:09:44
Speaker
And I know people that try to apply for these things. I remember myself trying to apply for student aid and it felt like it took more effort to go through the process of getting it and the the ah time and cost that was involved to get it approved.
00:10:05
Speaker
than the money that I actually got it afterwards, which was like insane. and Absolutely. absolutely to To throw in some numbers, I mean, we have 35 to 60% of people who are actually entitled to benefits like living living allowance, citizens allowance, social aid that are not claiming them.
Non-Take-Up Rates and International Comparisons
00:10:22
Speaker
So people are simply saying, I don't know that I get any of those like ah any of those benefits um that also are very ashamed of applying for those benefits simply because it always comes along with those stigmatization of ah you're not unemployed, you receive a social aid, is something low level, so um which ah which is simply something supposed to help people who are in need.
00:10:46
Speaker
And when you are not entitled, you are not in need. So generally when you are entitled, you are also in need of something like this. So that's that that makes it very frustrating. And this type of type of non-take-up problem is called, is very large, and particularly in Germany.
00:11:02
Speaker
Really? how how um If you compare to other countries in the European Union, are they doing a better job? Yes. um So there have been studies... Oh, they came fast. We're quite into that. So ah particularly in Estonia, for instance, nearly zero, or Denmark. And...
00:11:23
Speaker
It's a very quick correction. Afterwards, we realized the lowest non-take-up rate is actually in the Netherlands and the UK. Back to the episode. Then you have France who had very successful projects. They they they really, and it was surprising, they really um did projects on what is helping people to apply for social benefits because they had a similar problem.
00:11:46
Speaker
And ah there, for instance, this this type of study was a bit also... part of the constipation of Leisungslots, because on the one side, it was an information campaign to so to tell people, ah look, we we try to inform you more what is what is actually out there in terms of benefits in the in the language that you understand.
00:12:06
Speaker
And on the other side, um creating more easier to access applications that are centralized. So like one stop shops for all types of social benefits. And that was basically what we did. So we created a very so a very yeah tremendous block for with with several articles for every type of um question that I can have. so ah meanwhile, we have thousands of visitors every day on our websites who are simply informing themselves on what what could I get if i'm if I'm in need or if I'm entitled to something.
00:12:38
Speaker
What could I apply for? And then from this um information procedure, they come into the to the benefit checks. So they calculate, I could be entitled to living allowance. There they have a living allowance calculator. So let's type in my numbers and see if I could get something.
00:12:55
Speaker
And then they apply. And ah that's that's basically kind of the user journey that we're having at the moment. And that's working very well so also because we see it from not just from the user journey that is monitored, but also from the users we hear it. So they're giving us feedback and say like, that's exactly actually what I what i would have liked to have from the beginning. Okay. So if I understand you correctly, right, this...
00:13:20
Speaker
One critical aspect is the centralization of the information. So so to to provide, ah um you call it a one-stop shop, but call it like a hub. You go there yeah or an info point, and you ask your questions and you know, okay, I have to turn left, i have to turn right, i have to go straight.
00:13:37
Speaker
That's what I have access to, to have all these routes. But I wonder, are you allowed to just do that and make recommendations to, because I mean, we're in Germany after all, i don't you need accreditation to do something like that? No, as long as we are not consulting officially.
00:13:56
Speaker
So it's, we are informing, we are not consulting then we need to draw the line as well. And that's that's ah actually a very critical question that we need to figure out where to draw the line because we have the so-called Legal Service Act in Germany. So basically, whenever you're doing some sort of legal consultation, you need to be ah an attorney, you need to do it with an attorney or or also with administrations, they are entitled as well.
00:14:19
Speaker
But um as either um private provider, but also if even if you ask an AI or something, they should not be able to consult. So ah they should just be able to, or they should just give you information.
00:14:32
Speaker
and give you directions. And that is already existing stuff like that. So even though the state has those calculators on their platforms and they're very not not user friendly generally, and they're also very decentralized. So nobody finds them. Mostly people don't know them. They don't they don't even know them no they exist. exactly Exactly. And so ah we we simply brought all of that ah most most of ah we We didn't invent much new stuff. We just brought it together and made it more user-friendly and centric.
00:15:01
Speaker
And I think the more secret sauce is actually in um getting all those types of benefits as something that is not existing so far. That was the first time we created something like that.
00:15:12
Speaker
um those interactions between all those benefits. So when I'm already in the application process for one benefit and I come to a showstopper where I enter data that says, okay, you are actually not entitled to this benefit, we show you an information. You can go on with the application process, but we say you're probably not entitled to this because of XY.
00:15:35
Speaker
And then you can change to to the other application process simply and say, okay, then I can continue with citizens allowance and we transfer your data into the new application form and I just continue.
00:15:47
Speaker
Just to go back a little bit, because I'm You know law definitely much better than I do. um What's the difference? where Where is the line between informing and consulting?
00:15:59
Speaker
where Where is exactly the line? Yeah, that that there I can give you a very abstract legal ah definition um but as soon as it comes to single case um single case consultation. So...
00:16:13
Speaker
Actually, our our applications are not even able to do that. So it's really like, I'm really analyzing your individual ah situation and then I give you an advice that is based on this analyzation.
00:16:28
Speaker
And then you simply and then you make any kind of yeah ah you apply for a benefit because of that, for instance. But for us, it's just like it's basically like an information office. So it's it's basically the same as we would say in an article, ah if you um fulfill these and these requirements, you would be entitled more to this. If we fulfill these and these, more to this.
00:16:48
Speaker
But simply in a very user-friendly way. So only if you were to say... So, okay. I'm just trying to find the boundary, right? So yeah don't get me wrong. There is also no clear legal boundary. That's something we want to say. that it's also For instance, we we have two functions. so One is ah the calculation. Calculations are not a big deal. So basically they're simply the law. it's Because it's not particularly to the case. So it's simply um a logic that is based on the law and very abstract. So it's um what makes it kind of tailored is simply to the data that the
00:17:26
Speaker
user is typing in. But there is anyway no room for um for improvisation in any case. So um whatever comes out, comes out. There's no room that you could say, ah in that case, you could be more in this way. you In that case, you can form more in this sarah you could go more in this direction.
00:17:43
Speaker
And I would interpret it, you go more in this direction. So that's not existing. And on the other side, we have the guide. It's all fixed on rules, on very unclear rules, on if-else logics, basically.
00:17:55
Speaker
And there is no room for interpretation. When there is no room for interpretation, then you can basically not consult. okay, I see. So if you... If you only provide access to these tools and you say, so let's say there are five calculators and 80% of them ask for the same information and you pre-fill all that 80% already while one person is filling out one of those,
00:18:23
Speaker
You're not consulting, you're just basically having all pre-filled and they can then see what could come out. Yeah. And also, I mean, in the end, we don't say ah that is where you where you go. We say we recommend. So you have still the choice to do whatever you like.
00:18:41
Speaker
But um we say this is probably more the direction you should apply for. It's simply an and it's simply an information tool. So recommend does not count as consulting? Not really.
00:18:52
Speaker
Not necessarily. When it's, as I said, um based on certain rules. So when it's really based on clear rules, on if-else conditions, basically, and that's ah that's also written in administrative code, for instance, you are not entitled to make any type of um automated procedures in the public administration, except there is no room for interpretation.
Guiding Applicants: Rule-Based Systems
00:19:15
Speaker
When there's room for interpretation, you're actually able to completely automate it to automate processes within the public administration. So you can say when it's really rule-based, so if it's if A is fulfilled, then you go to b then you're even able to make, for instance, public judgments.
00:19:33
Speaker
and for this social And for these social benefits, it's like what you just said. It's completely rule-based. It shouldn't be based on interpretation, I would assume. and a Whether you get the benefit in the end or not, depending on your individual situation that you fill in in the ah in the information of the of the application, yeah based on that, yes.
00:19:53
Speaker
But ah as long as you are just filling in ah as long as you're just trying to inform yourself, it's basically like I write in Google, um I am... I don't know, a tenant and I'm looking for a social benefit. Google, what what can I do?
00:20:08
Speaker
And then Google is providing you with information. This is basically the same we do, but simply but even actually more certain simply because it's we are just making judgments on very clear-based rules.
00:20:20
Speaker
Every type of um room where there's room for interpretation, There we don't provide anything. There we say, okay, you follow the process. You can simply follow the process you're at the moment in and it's up to the authority to decide it.
00:20:34
Speaker
And that's the thing. Like in the end, it must be always up to the user to do whatever he likes. He must be able to apply for a citizen's allowance, for living allowance or whatever he wants to. We can just provide the information on exactly the spots where they become relevant and say, ah, you then look you don't have income, so you're probably not entitled to living allowance because you never get living allowance when you don't have any income.
00:20:59
Speaker
Okay. And that's, for instance, there you can make a clear rule because it's really like there is no case. So it's not possible in this case, in this scenario. Or when you are a student and and end entitled according to the criteria of student support for student support,
00:21:15
Speaker
then you should first apply for student support and not living allowance. This is something I can inform about, but I cannot say, to make a clear example maybe, i cannot say, ah you ah should apply because of the situation you're in, you should apply for student support.
00:21:31
Speaker
It's more, it's a matter of semantic probably, it's more if you are entitled to student support, which is up to you, we cannot judge, or the authority can judge just in the end, then you should first apply for student support.
00:21:45
Speaker
Because otherwise, if you get denied for this, because you're entitled to student support, you make need to make another application. Okay, I think I understand. It's... What can I say? it It sounds convoluted like everything. I know, it's ah yeah it's it's a bit crazy. But in the end, as at the moment, there are no such type of of of information offers that are really strictly rule-based, that are really guiding the people. because And that's leading to the point that and authorities are completely overwhelmed and ah people don't know what just what to do
00:22:19
Speaker
But then is it is it the legislation or the, I mean, the when I say legislation, I mean the process of this entire administration pipeline that is just bad?
00:22:31
Speaker
Because you as far as I understand, I mean, hey, again, I'm not a lawyer, right? It should be pretty, based on the legislation, if you fulfill criteria A, B, C, D, E, based on whichever thresholds are set, you should get...
00:22:48
Speaker
whichever social benefit there is. yeah So I don't understand how that cannot be, if that is formulated in this way, what's the difficulty?
00:22:59
Speaker
I just don't get it. the complexity. Yeah. what What do you mean the complexity? For instance, when it comes to income, there are, I think just for living allowance, like 35 different categories of income. And then you need to define a lot of different ways of what income,
00:23:15
Speaker
can be income in which category know and what counts then in the end as income in terms of learning allowance and what not. And in the end, for instance, we can say, ah this is probably this this category of income, but in the end, it's up to the authority to judge. Because in the end, you need to prove it anyway. So ah you can type in, for instance,
00:23:32
Speaker
This is my salary, but in the end, if it's a salary based on um an employment, but in the end, if it's based on freelance, for instance, then they see it from your recipes and the proofs that you need to provide.
00:23:46
Speaker
This is actually freelance activity. So, it counts different category. This would be treated the same in that way, but um they they ah always anyway check not just what are you typing in, but they also check what proofs are you. actually providing me and then they need to judge in which type of category is it is it in and it is not just for for for income basically then um it's for for all those living situations that are people in okay how many kids do you have are they your own kids or is it uh are they adopted kids are you still uh together with uh with a parent of the other kid or um are you together with a new person? So there are so many different types of constellations and they need to interpret, are are they belonging all to the household? Are they, ah which incomes are calculated? Are they just living there partly maybe or not?
00:24:41
Speaker
So the living situations are very complex and particularly the income categories are very complex. But then I'm wondering, you mentioned that about 90% submitted wrong. Yeah.
00:24:56
Speaker
This sounds like, I mean, even if I read everything, then i have to submit. I'm doing my best to do it. um But it almost sounds like a fight I can't win. Yeah. Even if I try.
00:25:12
Speaker
so how do I go about it? there is not And not how do I go, only about it. How are you trying to, well, basically fix it? Yeah, ah like ah exactly. Why why are 90% wrong? it's ah Most of that is simply because they are not with all the necessary proofs that you need to provide. So generally you need to provide a lot of proofs for for income certificates, living situations.
00:25:37
Speaker
um Are you retired? Are you having any additional insurances or whatnot that can be deducted or whatsoever? um But also um then there 90% of the applications are simply not ah complete and then also contain, i would say 50, 60% also mistakes.
00:25:56
Speaker
And there we have several approaches to that. On one side, is um we check for consistencies within the application. So for instance, if you say on one page you are um hired your um your worker working for some firm, and next page you say ah you don't have any salary as an income, then I say this doesn't make sense. So how are you really sure that this is the case for you?
00:26:20
Speaker
This is the one side. So all the validations that we have within yeah within the application. And in the end, we give them a very comprehensive list of all the necessary proofs that they need to fill in, in particularly their situation. So it's tailored and also rule-based completely on what they typed in, in the form.
00:26:39
Speaker
And those... um lists that we actually provide them with um with with proofs that need to be provided to the authorities are so much more comprehensive and much more detailed than what the authorities provide. Because they say very generally, ah we need proofs of income, proofs of living situation.
00:26:55
Speaker
And what does that mean? But nobody knows what that actually means. So we say, okay, for you from you, we need your certificate that you're retired. We need your salaries and ah your income certificate for the last six or 12 months, depending on the benefit.
00:27:09
Speaker
We need um exactly the proof of this and this insurance that you actually said that you have. We need the proof that you are disabled or whatever. And um by that they understand better what do I actually need to provide. So there's lists, simply the the online applications that are existing mostly are the problem.
00:27:26
Speaker
And ah additionally, we also make it easier to provide the information. So, most online services, they just have a drag and drop field. I drag and drop my my my income certificate, but I have my income certificate. 90% of those those people are applying. They have income certificate, a lease agreement and whatnot.
00:27:45
Speaker
They have that in written and not on their computer mostly. And so, what do they do? They make a but they they did make a photo with the phone and then they upload it. And then you have the case.
00:27:56
Speaker
I mean, even if they do that, mostly simply say, I send it out, I don't care. And even if they make the photo, it's mostly not readable and whatnot. So we have a ScanBot SDK, for instance. You come with a code directly to your phone. It's scanned in a way that the authority can actually read it and yeah enhances user experience and actually also the administrative part. So it's...
00:28:21
Speaker
Now, this shocks me a little bit because I would have ah thought that at least the process of applying is at least streamlined, but that doesn't seem to be a case. It's more like, um well, fill this out, tell us what you have, throw it all in this digital bucket and we will try to figure it out.
00:28:39
Speaker
And then afterwards, it turns out, well, whatever you threw into the bucket is, well, we can't read it instead of, checking first while you throw it in, is this actually usable?
00:28:50
Speaker
and How much time and effort does that actually cause on the administrative side? Yeah, that's tough to say how much, but what we can say, for instance, ah ah application for living allowance costs.
00:29:05
Speaker
Costs internally for um for for administration are um when we come go from the The obvious average numbers from Berlin is around 260 euros. So 260 euros just checking a living allowance application. So for what what the um the officer costs, what the overhead costs and whatnot.
00:29:28
Speaker
So, this is ah much more than actually the the legislation calculated with. The legislation actually makes calculations for how much effort will this law be to be executed. And they said for one living allowance application, 90 minutes.
00:29:45
Speaker
In real, it's around three hours. Okay, whoa. So wait, wait, wait. This means, do do you also know how many people roughly on average apply for a living allowance?
00:29:58
Speaker
We have 1.2 million receivers in Germany at the moment, approximately 1.2 million and around 2 million people that are actually entitled. But do you know how many applied and then you don't know?
00:30:13
Speaker
That's, I guess that's difficult to say. No, I mean, one yeah, one point, you need to apply every year for it, and 1.2 million apply at the moment approximately per year for living allowance. And from those 1.2 million, 90% handed in wrong?
00:30:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Mostly, as I said, ah not complete applications.
00:30:36
Speaker
Jesus. So 90% of 1.2 million times two hundred sixty euros it's just Wasted. ah No, no, no. no you know i see I see the calculation that you're opening up there. must correct it a bit because ah two hundred even if you make them perfectly correct from the beginning until the end, if you even if you've handed a completely correct and full application, it's still around probably 150, 160 euros or something because they still need to put it into their system. They need to calculate it. They need to prove ah they need to check the application, obviously.
00:31:10
Speaker
And then ah they need to write the certificate. Are you entitled? Send it out. So they're still... But that would be in what would be super interesting is what is the ideal cost for an application? So in an ideal world, let's say, how much would it cost actually? How much would product cost be if the living allowance application comes in directly complete?
00:31:34
Speaker
Or... is already checked beforehand. For instance, there is meanwhile an AI tool that can do that. So we're working together with them and therefore, for instance, checking the complete living allowance application, ai also as ah partly rule-based, um mostly aii Is it correct and is it complete?
00:31:52
Speaker
And just when it's complete, and then they they automatically provide a list what is missing, send it out directly to the user. And so basically the administrative part part starts as soon as the user handed in the REST documents. Right. it makes that That I think makes sense. Obviously. um I don't want to focus only on the cost of what it takes to to check something, right? To check um your application. I'm just...
00:32:19
Speaker
I mean, I feel for the people working in the administrative part as well. It's just a huge waste of their time. Absolutely. And yet they have to go through those endless lists of applications.
00:32:32
Speaker
And it still costs time. and And not only time, costs money. And I mean, mentally... at the end of the day doing that eight hours a day you're exhausted it seems like a waste of human potential let's say like that first of all that and they have a facing a completely new problem meanwhile um simply um that a lot of people are of course retiring particularly in public service so um we have at a moment already a demand of 600 000 people in the public service in the public sector um are missing and up until 2030, there is a study by McKinsey, it rises to 1.3 million.
Digitalization and Public Service Challenges
00:33:13
Speaker
So we it's digitalization and make streamlining processes in public administrations is not optional anymore. It's actually the only opportunity we still have.
00:33:26
Speaker
yeah Shit. That's why they meanwhile say, we need you startups. that's That's actually very interesting. They come to us and they say, show me what you got, because we we have problems in the in the municipalities. that the The federal government cannot solve them. The old software providers, they don't really provide any solutions that are somehow helpful to us, not tailored on our problems.
00:33:51
Speaker
And you are the ones who are actually sitting down with us and checking what are your pain points and how can we solve them? Well, that's a good segue. Let's talk about those, let's call them legacy software providers.
00:34:02
Speaker
um Not because they're non-existent anymore, just because legacy in terms of they have these long, long contracts that...
00:34:15
Speaker
They don't force them to innovate. They don't force them to change anything. Rather, they're locking you in. They're gatekeepers. They're gatekeepers. Yeah. And I understand you want to keep your business model running. I get it.
00:34:28
Speaker
But the cost, I mean, just the few numbers we talked about now is huge. is It's just massive. Yeah. But that brings me now to the question, if the municipalities and the the individual states come to you, want to talk to you, how much of that is actually fruitful?
00:34:49
Speaker
Because how can they get out of those contracts? Can they get out of those contracts? They can. They can. ah The municipalities can. ah but I mean, the higher you step up the ladder, so in terms of um are we go to country state level or even federal level,
00:35:05
Speaker
There you have much more stronger contracts um and also for different durations often. But when it comes to municipality base, it's generally not more than a year or something. It's more often the problem that they're extremely afraid of what what happens when we set down this type of software and introduce a new one.
00:35:27
Speaker
Because we have but we don't know how many bodies we have in departments here. We don't know what is happening. So they're a bit, yeah. scary of what happens if we introduce a completely new system because it's a bad system, but it's it's it's this type of, ah, it's somehow working and we are fear we are fearing that everything breaks down when we now change.
00:35:49
Speaker
I would say everything is breaking down. Yeah, exactly. Because we're not changing. Yeah, that its that's what we say. I mean, okay, in all fairness, right? I i was bashing a little bit the legacy ah companies, right? The legacy software companies with the the long-term contracts.
00:36:06
Speaker
To be fair, I mean, of course, a startup would say that. because they won the contracts too oh it's it's also right kidding really to be fair right to be to be honest i feel and meanwhile uh they they it's changing a bit because i think they're realizing that their initial i don't want to say arrogance but but but um yeah restrictions or that their initial approach to startups and to new innovation ah is now changing because they see we cannot go on like that. Because if our our customers go down, we do as well.
00:36:42
Speaker
we can It's not sustainable anymore and and not just sustainable for the next 20, 30 years, but not even for the next two or three years anymore. And startups are coming more aggressively and more strong than I think they are expecting.
00:36:57
Speaker
So this whole GovTech scene just started in the last, I would say, six to 10 years. And meanwhile, they grew into the field. I mean, we are very, very early phase, but there are some that are extremely strong meanwhile, and that can really um claim that they are literally competition to them.
00:37:15
Speaker
And so they look around and see, we need to obviously change something. i mean this was the first time that they actually came to us and say, it's interesting. like can we Can we make an appointment that we would be very interesting in comparison?
00:37:27
Speaker
um That wouldn't have happened one year ago. Never. Yeah. yeah Now this makes me wonder, and I understand that I come across as very cynical now. think I've been living in this country for a long time.
00:37:40
Speaker
<unk> It's just a bureaucratic system that does it you. It just does it to you. um We were at this conference. It wasn't a conference. It was like a workshop or a presentation of at at a business school.
00:37:52
Speaker
And I thought what quite interesting was there was one person who was describing different types of digitalization. you know Digitalization is this big word in this country. Apparently, something that's been going on for 30 years. And to me, nothing's really changing. It's just let's talk about it. And that's it.
00:38:09
Speaker
which also isn't really fair, it's just that's just how it feels. um And this person was talking about digitalization in terms of point of no return, which I thought was was scary, because I never looked at it this way.
00:38:25
Speaker
Because he was describing, um unfortunately forgot his name, but he was describing these aspects that basically you are saying now with these numbers, right? This is what is missing.
00:38:35
Speaker
This is what needs to be done. This is the backlog of we're not even scratching the surface of what needs to be ah finished. That's already 10 years old.
00:38:46
Speaker
And yet there is no plan in place to fix the current system, let alone improve it. And he was saying also something in the terms of if we don't get our shit together in the next two years, it's going to look very bleak.
00:39:02
Speaker
And not in terms of, hey, let's catch the catch a train of AI. He wasn't even talking about that. He was just talking about... The simplest bureaucratic processes, which, yeah, I thought that was pretty scary.
00:39:17
Speaker
that That's a very interesting point, because my take on that is it's an organizational problem. Because when we see in the startups, at day day they do what everybody says. Why is that not happening? Why don't we have something like that? And they simply go and say, there you have it.
00:39:31
Speaker
ah So and in general, also, ah you have a lot of people there that say, ah, this is not possible. You cannot do that. It's not it's not compliant. We show them that it's compliant, actually. Most, 90% of the job we're doing is consulting because we did our homework first. That's actually, I think, what what makes GavTech startups a bit different from other startups that we say, first, we check what we are allowed to do. And because we need, we have a very, very scared customer base, let's say. So we need to have answers for all the questions. And then we tell them, we we also prove, look, we can do that, actually. There's no, there's nothing restricting us. I don't know. you have this idea of this is restricting. It's not existing.
00:40:13
Speaker
And that's basically, that's what everybody here does. in the startups. And then we come out with the solutions and ah get slowly established. And we always say here, it's a matter of the critical point of critical mass. So when you have couple of communes connected, then it's easily spreading because then they see, ah, it's working. Okay, then we can actually do that apparently. It's the adoption curve, right? Yeah. And i I assume the status quo bias, especially in administrative tasks, is...
00:40:42
Speaker
Huge. Yeah. It's just huge. But we have a very, very interesting, and that's um always one thing we need to argue in front of investors because they never believe that GovTech is an interesting spot to invest in actually.
00:40:55
Speaker
But we have also some ah very now unique um market points in that and in that area because for instance, we have zero, chur there's a zero churn rate in this area. So once a municipality signs you, they never leave basically.
00:41:09
Speaker
as so as long as you're not messing up massively. But if that is the case, why would you keep innovating? Exactly. And that's that's actually the problem that we have. That's exactly the point what we have. I mean, that's why i think most of the people that are innovators in that space do it more out of an inner drive, less out of I need to do it because I know my customers will stay.
00:41:35
Speaker
Right. And when you say customers, you mean the municipalities. You don't mean the that the people that not the users. But is that then an attractive business case? You know, I'm wondering. I've been going back and forth on this in my mind a lot.
00:41:52
Speaker
Because if you have a municipality signed from a business perspective, you have, I guess, a licensing agreement. yeah of This is the software. This is what you license. This is how much you can use it.
00:42:05
Speaker
Rather than... a success level type of um business model where you could say, okay, we saved you this much time compared to whatever that was before.
00:42:17
Speaker
Oh, we do. You do? Yeah, of course. I mean, in the end, we need to create business cases for them just as well as for every other customer. um So what what but that that was something every start I think every Gavtech startup needs to learn the very beginning is you need to create an added value for the municipalities.
00:42:33
Speaker
And you need the the only specification, you need to also understand this customer base a bit more because it's very political. But ah in the end, we are saving time for the municipalities. For instance, so for us, the business case is very simple when it comes to the communes. We show that to them and say, look, already with the validations that we have within here, we save you at least 50% of applications of people that are actually not entitled to the benefit that are directly applying for the correct benefit.
00:43:01
Speaker
And that times the product costs that you on average have, That is amount X and we demand amount Y, which is much lower. So we actually save you costs and time and provide a better service for the citizens.
00:43:15
Speaker
And they're happy with that. Yeah, because ah in the end, mostly I don't even need to go that far because they say, i have these and these problems.
00:43:26
Speaker
Is that somehow fixing them? And we show them how it is and then they say, okay. So the reason why I'm pushing so much on this is i I do believe you, I fully believe you, and these are all very rational arguments.
00:43:39
Speaker
It's just that often the rational arguments are not the things that get municipalities or the government change. No, no. oh So i didn't get the municipalities, it does, the government not much, I would say, because the municipalities are very pragmatic people. they have They are really, they're executors. they are ah I mean also the execution force and they they they are executors. They got their living alliance applications and they they they administrate them simply. And I say, I have a lot of stuff to do. i have very, very manual and arduous procedures behind it. So do you have something that makes this somehow easier?
00:44:16
Speaker
this is ah These are the main points why people are applying incorrectly. How do you solve that? And we show them and they say, okay, good, that makes sense. But um they also have a bit of a pain point in terms of digitalization. And most important is, I think what most they don't understand or where most startups in the sector that are now failing is, ah for instance, when you make a spot in the municipality um not necessary anymore. So, for instance,
00:44:45
Speaker
I invent something that makes the complete municipal but that makes one complete department unnecessary. And this is also the department that would need to buy it. Of course, they would not buy it.
00:44:56
Speaker
They would not buy something that makes them unnecessary. you know I understand. But then based on what you said is... We need, what was it? We're lacking 600,000 people. in that case, exactly. I mean, it's not like there isn't there isn't it's not like there isn't any work left to do.
00:45:15
Speaker
ah just and in some departments, that's still the case, but particularly in social administration, they're they're really lacking people. So there there's does the this point, the biggest, when it comes, for instance, more to procurement or so,
00:45:29
Speaker
there you don't have so many people that are, uh, that are there. And then you have mostly people that are sitting in this department for 20 years or something. And they simply say, I want to sit down here for the next, I mean, of course now very, very dark pattern, but, um, with day they, they maybe say, I just want to stay until I'm retired. Oh, here's something that actually could make me must retire earlier.
00:45:52
Speaker
So now let's not do that. Let's do it the way we did. Right. Right.
00:45:58
Speaker
And you get you also get the emotional of course part, actually. i mean, yeah well honestly, more when I sit together with the people of the department of the social departments, when I showed it to them and explained, are these the the mistakes that they do? Are these the pains that you're having? And they say, yes, that's that's it. Exactly. That's what the people need. that's what they That's what they are lacking.
00:46:20
Speaker
I would say, in particularly in the social departments, you have also a lot of people who are really more emotional types and they feel the pains of the citizens and of their colleagues and they also, them, you also get more on the emotional basis. Right.
00:46:36
Speaker
It's difficult for sure. i mean, it sounds very difficult as in being stuck between various incentives, the social one, the, I mean, of course you also have to have your own livelihood as well.
00:46:49
Speaker
And at the same time you have this mountain of paperwork you have to get through without going insane. at the same time. um Let's go back to the user experience.
00:47:01
Speaker
You described something where you said at the beginning, um when it comes to these calculators, for example, right? You have these calculators, you put in these numbers and those numbers, and they're very, let's just say, very clinical, very, very cold. As you said, ah hey, what's the, what salary, what's your income? And as you already described, it can be freelance. It can be, maybe you have an apartment and you rent it out.
00:47:28
Speaker
It's most likely that you don't get social benefits, but that It is possible, right? As an income, ah you have a regular salary and so on and so on. um You know, there's this concept about decision science, you know, you have very simple decision trees and instead of making it very complicated as in giving you, and you can see it in good you user experience design as well, instead of making it very complicated, we ask one question that covers many of these answers already.
00:48:05
Speaker
And then simply based on a decision tree, you are going through different steps. You will never even see others because you already said no, and those are not necessary for you to answer.
00:48:16
Speaker
Basically, you already answered them. Exactly. Instead, what I often see is in these forms, I see 50 questions. And at the third question, I'm already like, holy shit.
00:48:28
Speaker
And at the third question, it says, if you had answered this like that, continue with question 59.
00:48:35
Speaker
So four pages, i have to find question 59. Where... where
00:48:42
Speaker
where it makes sense to do this, but then I do not understand why the overwhelm in the first place. Because people can say whatever they want, well, it's like a decision tree. But you are visually impacted massively if I see 100 questions in front of me.
00:49:00
Speaker
I don't know beforehand if I only have to fill in eight. Exactly. i don't. We don't even show them. so that's ah We show the user whatever they need ah to fill in.
00:49:10
Speaker
And so for instance, just to give an example, when you say um when when we come to the income part and we list, ah by the way, income it means this and this and this and this, give many examples.
00:49:23
Speaker
and like Do you have income? Do you have any of these? And if you say no, next. If you say yes, then we start, ah okay, what type of income do you have? what How often do you get it? Is monthly? Is it yearly?
00:49:36
Speaker
um Do you pay taxes on it? Do you pay um health insurance on that? Mostly mostly it's the case. So um this is basically this is basically how we design it. Or for instance, also, and one question is always also very cynical that it comes mostly mostly in living allowance in the living allowance application is, ah did a household member die within the last 12 months? Because they have this weird regulation, if a household member died within the last 12 months, it's still counting in for the next.
00:50:05
Speaker
So, I mean, the legislator thought it's something nice to have because due to that you have generally higher amount, you're entitled to a higher amount, ah particularly for people who lost a household member. It's and and a nice thing, but the the question itself is obviously very cynical.
00:50:26
Speaker
And in the end, you're you're faced with this question, all those follow-up questions over half a page. and Like, no, we... Can we not simply make one simple question? Did anybody in your household die when 12 months automatically already crossed?
00:50:41
Speaker
No. If so, then switch to yes. And then you're confronted with those questions. Otherwise, you go further and out of your mind. Right, exactly.
00:50:53
Speaker
and So that's already streamlining the process a lot. We also, I mean, not not yet, but outside of this podcast booth, we have talked already about the integration of AI.
00:51:06
Speaker
Now, I am wondering, especially of what you said at the beginning, when it comes to you can only be a source of information, not a consultant. Yeah.
00:51:17
Speaker
and If you, I mean, yes, I'm sure ChatGPT is being asked about what social benefits i might can I get. Sure, OpenAI can't do anything about that, just as Google cannot do anything about that.
00:51:30
Speaker
But if you as a company say, hey, we are trying to streamline this process and we are offering a chatbot. Mm-hmm. How careful do you have to be how this thing behaves, what it says, what it doesn't say, what information it has access to, what information it should not have access to?
00:51:52
Speaker
and Does that have to be on a municipality basis? Can there be ah one bot you make and be integrated in all municipalities? mean, these are lots of questions. Yeah, I know.
00:52:03
Speaker
We need to differentiate it. But in general, yes, we can make one bot but using but using one bot for all administrations because we're talking about a federal law. So basically, it's everywhere the same.
00:52:14
Speaker
It's just that they sometimes execute it very differently. But in the end, you always need to interpret interpret it in the right in ah in the same way because it doesn't matter...
AI in Social Benefits Information
00:52:22
Speaker
In the end, when, um for instance, municipality in Bavaria judges me differently than in Cologne and I go to the court, the court judges just the same way because it is federal level regulated.
00:52:33
Speaker
And that's basically, I think that the toughest part is exactly that that thing or that not just I think, this is the toughest part. to create a chatbot that gets the sweet spot of, I'm a source of information, I can inform about everything in the field of, let's say, living allowance or in general leading you to the right benefit, roughly, but or informing you about social benefits.
00:52:59
Speaker
But I do not consult. And ah for instance, we we we already tried, we already started with prompting and already giving him a definition of what is the what is the differentiation between information and consulting.
00:53:13
Speaker
And actually, we tried it with test questions and it was very impressive. So it was really when when I gave it even... but like um like a test case to say like, ah what would I get? This would be a clear consultation.
00:53:28
Speaker
I'm a household with this ah with ah these and these kids. This is my living um situation. What would I get? Then it's saying basically, I cannot tell you what to get because I am not a lawyer. You would need a consultation you can get from your authority.
00:53:45
Speaker
But generally, you are entitled when you don't have income and you can work, you can work then you are generally entitled to citizens allowance. When you have an income, for instance, when an income also reaches a certain grade, then you are more entitled probably to living allowance, which is more support for the living costs itself.
00:54:07
Speaker
So it gives them this gene generic information, but not you get this and this. And that's that's that's really the sweet spot that we need to find because the differentiation, date there is no strong clear line. So for instance, we check really according to the legislation that is behind it.
00:54:24
Speaker
we check We checked every side on Leistungslotser. Is it really on the information side or is it consulting? And ah it's basically probably most of the work that we are doing.
00:54:37
Speaker
reaching any of this any of the spots. But actually the differentiation is not that, I mean, probably it's more a lawyer thing, but it's not that tough. It isn't. No, it isn't. I think it sounds it sounds rougher than it is because um we we know exactly, and no, you actually need to go in really directly on the specific case, need to know all the specifications of that case.
00:54:59
Speaker
And the person needs to have really the impression, I got a personal consultation here and not a generic information. That's mostly how does the that the user or the yeah client, you would say in general, how do they perceive it? Do they need to perceive it actually as a way of I received a personal consultation as I would have gone to a lawyer or social counseling or did I get more generic information?
00:55:25
Speaker
Right. And from user perspective, would say I'd feel better if it'd be a personal consultation. But I understand this. and If I don't give all information, then I cannot really get a consultation either.
00:55:43
Speaker
So being directed makes sense, just as a consultant would do as well. Just that the consultant would ask you all those questions instead of directing you to which questions to answer or figure out in the first place. And finally, we even we even challenged that a bit by really asking the people, like ah what what you how would you have felt about this? Do you feel this was a personal consultation or an information?
00:56:06
Speaker
i said, this was information for me. So everybody so far that we we make phone interviews and they say so far, they always said, no, this was obviously informing because in the end we can do whatever we we can do whatever we want.
00:56:21
Speaker
We can go as close and clear to according to the legislation there as we want. But in the end, if there would be, I mean, you always need to calculate, of course, in the worst case scenario, if there would be a case, what would ah what would a court do say? And the court would basically say, I would,
00:56:38
Speaker
how um how a normal person, how this person needs to receive it. how does What is their impression? And we we can say as on an abstract basis, actually, it's not the impression that you get a personal consultation.
00:56:51
Speaker
But how can you evaluate this? Ask the people. So again, you have to cover your ass Yeah, no, it's from a legal perspective. Honestly, honestly covering your ass from a legal perspective. Honestly, the legal perspective, nobody has doubted so far at all. at all The only thing was really ah one municipality was saying, ah but don't they think ah I have a claim of amount XY from the living allowance calculator um when that comes out? um And then i receive um then I receive the money and it's a different amount.
00:57:25
Speaker
um And I would say... Yes, but then also the state would not be allowed basically to do any of those calculators that are actually already existing out there. So then then also all of that stuff would be illegal um or would be need to go under legal consultation. um So obviously not the case. And we so we we also say this is probably the amount that you get according to information that you filled in here.
00:57:53
Speaker
Completely rule based. Right. You know, I would have expected that if you were to integrate a chatbot um regarding these aspects and you were feeding it with, um um of course, the the the law, ah the paragraphs, the everything that's required, I would have expected it to be more, well, not so good in performance, let's say.
00:58:20
Speaker
To be more on an interpretation level because they' the lawyer... The language of the law is just very different than what a normal person in everyday life would ask when they interact with a chatbot.
00:58:34
Speaker
Yes. They would not say, hey, what does paragraph six, ah section B, part one, tell me about... they they They have no idea. Yes, they don't ask, am I entitled to living allowance? They say, what do I get?
00:58:47
Speaker
So that's in very clear terms. yeah that's That's it. And ah that that's the biggest challenge. But ah in the end, um most of the work that is to be done in that way is not legal work. It's really just ah simple research. So um creating, figuring out what are the people actually asking, what are the...
00:59:05
Speaker
and how are they asking it, and then ah coming up with answers, researching for answers, creating the answers, and then validating, are they understanding it? Is that this is it the answer that, I mean, I can validate whether it's a correct answer, but whether it's written in a way or formulated in a way that you understand it, I need to test it with the user.
00:59:27
Speaker
Makes sense. Makes sense. Then we're again at the user experience level. Yeah. Now I have a talking about law that is your background. And now we talked also a little bit about ai How come lawyers don't like AI so much?
00:59:43
Speaker
At least the ones I talk to. really is like I like it. I like it So, um no, it's... ah but let mean and that that That's of course, I'm exaggerating, right? I'm just saying, and maybe that's just...
00:59:58
Speaker
it's I'm not, a again, I can only say it again, I'm not a lawyer. i don't know how that sphere of the profession is. um So maybe they're just in general a bit more critical or reserved.
01:00:11
Speaker
um But I see from friends of mine that are lawyers an incredible amount of resistance, which I shouldn't say isn't granted,
01:00:23
Speaker
but it sometimes feels cherry-picked. Yes. i Honestly, I think it's often because they don't really understand how to use it. or I think it's more of a yeah ah usability problem because they ask a legal question to AI and expect an answer, the answer that they have in their mind.
01:00:43
Speaker
Because even when two... Honestly, ah working in law firms, even when two lawyers ah the debate on on one question, even they are arguing about it. Even they are not even they say, are stupid, that's not what what it should say or whatever.
01:00:58
Speaker
So even they have different opinions. And then of course, when an AI comes in the game with with a known, maybe very generic opinion, or probably not an opinion, more an interpretation of the sources that it found, um they simply say, ah of course, on the one side, bullshit as well. Because it's not my opinion, maybe, or not going into the direction that I would interpret it.
01:01:18
Speaker
And um then on the other side, they also, of course, prompting, I think, not correctly. They have different expectations of what would come back. um So so when whenever I saw really more this typical um old settled lawyers using AI, I thought, okay, you cannot ask.
01:01:39
Speaker
that model in that way, that question, because it would never provide you the answer that would be satisfying for you. So that was mostly a usability problem. And I think, yes, also a lot of people use AI, of course, for legal interpretation. So if I have question regarding a lease agreement, I ask AI as a normal person, and then it gives me an answer.
01:02:02
Speaker
it's Not bad, but of course, I think as every expert in their field, I would also say, it's not 100%. It's not, you could also, it could be also this in this case.
01:02:15
Speaker
So you always think in all the 5,000 cases that could go around. Right, right. You know, what I started to do actually is I wasn't asking AI for legal advice or anything, but whenever I saw some contracts come my way,
01:02:31
Speaker
I just threw it in and said, hey, what about the text you see here seems off? ah What are inconsistencies? And things like this. Not in a sense of, hey, what should I write in here? No, no, no, no, no. Just based on this document, what you have here, this is what it's supposed to be.
01:02:48
Speaker
Are there any inconsistencies similar to what you explained with the ah filling in those forms? If you have answered A in one direction and then you answer question 10 in another, it makes no sense.
01:03:00
Speaker
and if yeah by that you're doing it wrong so i've been ah using it for that as like a sophisticated text processing machine basically and that has been working pretty well yeah yeah yeah that's been working pretty well uh double checking with my lawyer friends as well and i'm not i haven't been asking it to generate any contracts for me but more cross-checking or when it comes to applications in a sense of hey this is what i've filled in Did I maybe miss something? And it's very, it's very good at that. Yeah.
01:03:34
Speaker
I must say. But you, so your background being law, now you're in GovTech and basically business and tech. What, what do you think is a bit difficult to ah juggle those three areas? Yeah.
01:03:53
Speaker
I think they go... ah but Juggling is a very good term, I would say, because ah that's exactly what I like about it. At the moment, it exactly all those areas that I love, really, on the one side, I do legal work, literally, when I work on the product. On the other side, or when I do need to do research also for new products, when it comes more to the regulative side, for instance.
01:04:17
Speaker
On the other side, you have this business side really talking with the communes and um negotiating prices, you need to do business plans, you need to argue, of course, also you need to justify your business plan with your investors.
01:04:28
Speaker
ah That's something that is very, very much fun as well. And um on the other side, I mean, <unk> government and regulatory, I mean, it goes hand in hand, basically. It's more really understanding this as in every sector is about and understanding the sector, which I always liked and that was actually part of the business development work that I did in law firms was I must say that that the most and it interesting part was really digging into new sectors and trying to understand them and how they work.
01:04:58
Speaker
um But I wouldn't say I struggle with juggling all those sectors. I would say it's actually that's I think that what's making it interesting probably for every founder to um to have more than one specialized area, but ah three areas or two or three areas that you're good at and that you can combine somehow.
01:05:21
Speaker
Right. mean, in the end, as a founder or just running a company in general, you can't afford just to be a one trick pony. There's no way you can't afford doing that. Exactly. You can try, but it sooner or later you're confronted with reality that you have to all of a sudden, the type of work you shift you do shifts so much away um that you have to expand.
01:05:44
Speaker
i mean, of course, you cannot be specialist in all of them. Yeah. But...
01:05:52
Speaker
How can I say your one size fits all training? It just doesn't work. No, that doesn't work. So you really need to focus on two tops, three areas maybe that I think that that you can maybe still handle with a good rate and good accuracy.
01:06:10
Speaker
But then it's, um yeah, you're diversifying too much and you're basically, um yeah youre you you can't be a master of all classes. You just need to find ah Some sort of specialization. And I must say, this is the legal work that we do here. This is legally very relatively low level. So this is not any high. It's a regulate very regulated area, but the regulation is not. So as a lawyer, you read over it and say, OK, I understand It's not something I i need to read 500 times to understand that there are areas where i would need to do that. But in this area, not to kind of probably
01:06:50
Speaker
probably highly specialized lawyers in this area would completely argue that way and would say something different. but But for the use cases and for what we need, it's not ah it's not hard it's not too complicated.
01:07:04
Speaker
Which I find it quite interesting because my background and I've been working a lot in med tech as well. And there, of course, the regulations are just painful.
01:07:15
Speaker
ah They exist and you have to get things... Double check, triple check, quadruple checked. I understand why. I mean, of course, because the the the repercussions of um the negativities can be can be really bad.
01:07:31
Speaker
I get that. ah so I'm wondering, when you say regulations in your case, do you also have to get specific certificates? Do you have to check certain boxes?
01:07:42
Speaker
um I assume it's not like the MDR, like the medical device regulation of the European Union where you have different classes, but we talked a little bit about AI. What happens if you integrate a chatbot into all of this, all of a sudden,
01:07:58
Speaker
What does the European Union AI Act say about this? Are you then in a certain high risk class or not? um lots Lots of questions. Exactly. so for instance, when it comes to the AI Act, it's ah they differentiate their Actually, more and this and exactly on the spot that we have also in in our legal service acts, that as long as it's just for, I think, I'm not very sure about the wording it it's using, but when it's just more for information reasons, doesn't take any time. decisions, then it's even if it's in a high risk category, yeah but it doesn't fulfill this high risk, you don't need to fulfill those high risk regulators. So basically, that's why we are not in a high risk area, but we're still in a very sensitive area because it's also about social benefits, sometimes even concerning health data, for instance, when it comes to disabilities or for for stuff like this.
01:08:54
Speaker
So, we need to make very, very sure with, for instance, benchmarking and clear set of test questions to say, this AI is to 99.9% just informing.
01:09:07
Speaker
nine point nine percent ah just informing you In the end, you can never say 100%. 100% is never existing. But to a very high standard, is safe, it bulletproof, and then we're fine. You always have a human in the loop. I mean, in the end, as long as you have the human in the loop and the impression, it's always like the impression of what is the impression of the customer,
01:09:32
Speaker
As long as they know, if they have the impression, okay, I'm not individually consulted. They know there is an AI in the background. It's not a person that I'm talking to. And it even provides me the sources.
01:09:44
Speaker
Perfect.
01:09:47
Speaker
You know, there's another aspect. I mean, I have the tendency to go on when it comes to technology to go all in on the latest, newest thing, or at least to be up to date with it. I'm also a little critical, especially when kind the blockchain came around.
01:10:01
Speaker
What the fuck is this? When it comes to making all of this digital, the digital bringing back the digitalization aspect, When it comes to accessibility, there are some, that the the the government and the municipalities and their systems, they have, or at least are supposed to adhere to certain accessibility standards ah when it comes to the ah digital literacy, for example, or being barrier free. Are these also some some of these regulations that you mean?
01:10:33
Speaker
and You have to um adhere to those. How do you go about that? Yes, I mean, is this is highly relevant, for instance, for our online service. I think for accessibility, it's the WICG. That is this standard standard regulation about it for web accessibility. And so, for instance, I mean, the tech stack that we're using is fulfilling the technical criteria for accessibility.
01:11:00
Speaker
But um we we even dig in a bit deeper. So we even try to really say, okay, we we try to and use even better contrast standards that people can read it better. We we adopt, for instance, or we're working together with partners with an AI tool that basically translates to um a standardized um easy language and really accessible easy language. And there is a standard for that and that needs to be adopted.
01:11:26
Speaker
Meanwhile, also accessibility is is regulated and it's a must have. So it's not um it's not optional anymore, particularly for um government sites.
01:11:37
Speaker
And this is something, for instance, that we integrate now. So easier, barrier-free language and the whole application is anywhere barrier-free. And can you explain to me quickly what barrier-free means? exist i'm sure that's not not that I mean, I know what it means. It's just that for people outside of Germany... yeah it's ah Yes. ah so So it's basically for people have any um who are somehow impeded ah in terms of sight or hearing that they can actually use the application via the web browser or even via the phone um without facing any technical barriers.
Web Accessibility and Digital Services
01:12:13
Speaker
And one other step is then going a bit further. So people who um are simply having having some sort of um yeah struggles with handling it because they cannot read so well small letters on phone. So can we offer some to them something like like like bigger letters or making um the the ah boldness a bit better that we're integrating as well? so But that comes, this is for instance also nothing that is necessary now So there are those areas that are nice to have and that are the ones that are necessary.
01:12:49
Speaker
And the nice to have, of course, we we will integrate, but they're already on the on the agenda. Now we did the ones that are absolutely necessary. And honestly, the other regulations were very, i would say, they they are very good and they're very strong. So with that, we already have, I would say, comply with much higher standards than most public agencies.
01:13:10
Speaker
services that are already out there now. There's just a few very modern services that are really meeting those criteria perfectly. Wow. i'm Let's take a step back.
01:13:22
Speaker
When did you start with Leistungslotser? What was the year? im Actually 2023, end of 2023.
01:13:33
Speaker
ah friend of mine actually approached me and had this idea and they were, um there they just got a public grant and said like, don't you, because I was just looking for something new out of the ah out of the field of law firms. And he's like, wouldn't that be interesting for you to work on being with me on that?
01:13:52
Speaker
And um so I started with him working on the idea and um I had a feeling like, oh God, that's actually a large deal. I mean, as soon as honestly, as I heard the numbers and as I saw the studies behind it, I thought, oh my God, that's incredible. That cannot be fair. Most than half of the people that are entitled. They are not claiming public benefit social benefits.
01:14:13
Speaker
um Poverty rights actually have been raising over the last 20 years. And we are talking actually about shortening ah social benefits and making them less accessible than more accessible.
01:14:24
Speaker
So is that is it a cynical joke or something? and the digger we dig deeper And the more we dig into that, the more we found, okay, there's actually it' actually a business case. Because it's not just the people are actually Yeah, um suffering from that is also the municipalities, primarily the municipalities, because they're really, ah yeah, im probably a bit drastical, but at at the edge to of collapsing.
01:14:50
Speaker
I would even go a step further and say society is suffering. Yeah. Because if a large part of society is not doing well or is is at the poverty limit, i mean, research shows that over and over again, scarcity does not make you make good decisions in the first place.
01:15:11
Speaker
And the the repercussions of bad decisions are, if we're just speaking economically, are even more costly than providing these benefits.
01:15:22
Speaker
Just nobody wants to talk about that, cha find which I find a bit short-sighted and sad. Because we do pride, in Germany at least, we do pride ourselves on our social democratic system.
01:15:34
Speaker
No, it starts with social democratic. So I would say let's do that so everybody can win. yeah And I think we can.
01:15:45
Speaker
I really think we can. um This is just from a side note. What I wanted to know is now assume everything goes well. I mean, you have to hope for that anyways. As a startup founder, we expect that. You expect that. That's what you're working towards anyways.
01:16:02
Speaker
What would your ideal service at Leistungsloze look like? you know, i'm asking this question because I heard this this interview from from the Airbnb founder and they went through a simple exercise.
01:16:15
Speaker
They went through this exercise where they thought, okay, what would be ah level one type satisfaction service we could offer? What would be level two? What would be level three? what And so they just exercised it through up to level 10, where I thought level 10 is insane.
01:16:31
Speaker
I mean, if you give me a vacation like that, that's like, I don't know, I'm out of this world. i wouldn't even know what to do with that type of experience.
01:16:43
Speaker
Now, let's say you have you go through this, right? um What would you hope Leistungslots would be like? And you can speak now in terms of KPIs and the way of, well, I would like if a person fills in everything that they're done within five minutes or the success rate of the their application increases to X amount or the municipality time, what, and I'm sure you will say all of this now, but just in the in the perfect world, what would you think, what would you be striving towards?
01:17:15
Speaker
Well, in a perfect world, I would draw a very, very large picture now, um because I would say ah that in an ideal world, you don't need to apply for anything. The state is coming to you and say, look, you're in this and this living situation, so you need, you're entitled to this and this benefit.
01:17:33
Speaker
because we see you're in a certain situation. ah do you Do you want it or not? And then you can claim this. So we're already, and in yeah other countries is existing, for instance, even in Austria, but when you when you get a child, you get directly paid out the child allowance. So you don't need to fill in any kind of application form or whatever.
01:17:50
Speaker
Because you you just got a child. They know. um So what what what all the the stuff around it is anyway something that is completely um fixed base. So it's not like it depends on your salary or so. It's what, 253 years or something. You get it. And ah that I think that would be ideal for any type.
01:18:10
Speaker
But for that... then high level you would need um very perfectly integrated data sets from all ah municipalities that they have. And they, i mean, mostly they have the data. theyre The finance authorities, they know your income side. On the um registration authorities, they know where you live. um They know how many people live in your place and so on. So all the data are generally there.
01:18:34
Speaker
They just need to be integrated and connected in the right way. And as that comes to you, yeah you can get this. um And so so just in terms of how the system would work, and um I would also say it needs to address people in the different language.
01:18:50
Speaker
When I receive any type of letter from the finance authorities, it always looks like I'm going to jail the next day. you know it reads It reads terribly. it was like Even if you get something back, you feel you did something wrong. yeah And I think the the way government needs to interact with people needs to change radically because people people are getting scared of this. People are not opening their their their mails anymore. they have When you go to the social counselling, they tell you those stories of people who are literally in fear of government mails because they they fear of
01:19:25
Speaker
A fine. Exactly. yeah Taxes. and ah All of that. And I think that's the ah ah next part. So how the government is interacting with you, not just language. which Also, you get it not via mail, but maybe in a digital account that you have at the state.
01:19:43
Speaker
um You can register there as easy as you want. Not with this federal ID where ah yeah I need to log in via my ID card and with a PIN of my ID card, which nobody knows, and really there are break upgrades.
01:19:57
Speaker
More than 90% of the people, we had the discussion here already, are basically stopping the process when they ask for the PIN. Because now, do you know the PIN of your of your ID card?
01:20:10
Speaker
i I would have to look it up, but I have it saved in my password manager. But it's a good point. You're organized. but No, but you're right. This is a very good point because um when I went through the process of activating my um digital ID or the the digital option of my normal ID card, it took me 30 minutes.
01:20:31
Speaker
And I do security digital stuff constantly. day in and day out. And if it takes me 30 minutes yeah to do that and being frustrated by it, I just thought a normal person just just just gives up. It's like, what is this?
01:20:48
Speaker
I don't see a benefit to this. um I don't even have access to it in that sense. The barrier is so high. Same goes for the the um what's the, what's the English term?
01:21:03
Speaker
the elect electronicship paten act The digital health record, basically. It's the same. It's nice, it's good, it's necessary, and now it's mandatory, but most people don't know how to access it.
01:21:17
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Because that took me one hour. that's That's a big point, accessibility. Because accessibility is often understood in the way of, I don't have barriers to something when i'm when I'm impeded as a feed person or something. But it it means even user-friendly or user-centricity.
01:21:34
Speaker
And ah that is something that that the state isn't understanding so far away. I was giving of also a workshop here and explaining basically, um look you you don't need to just... um scratch all the technical sides and accessibility. Exactly. You're just checking boxes here.
01:21:50
Speaker
You're never asking yourself, you're asking yourself, what does the user need to ah use this application? But what does the user need to use it in the best way possible? And that's that's the only difference that we make, basically the only difference in ah in the questions we ask towards
Bureaucratic Differences: Germany vs. Netherlands
01:22:06
Speaker
the authority. What do they need to use it in the best way possible?
01:22:10
Speaker
And then you come to very different results often. And I think it's interesting what you said is that this in a perfect world, you don't have to apply for it. It is already set.
01:22:21
Speaker
yeah But that requires, as you said, the centralization of this information. In Germany, it's all very fragmented. And that was basically my experience while I lived in the Netherlands is They had all my information.
01:22:36
Speaker
um I provided it, obviously, but it was all in a usable digital format. So when I applied for, um I mean, my PhD ended, I was basically officially out of a job. I didn't stop working. I mean, you can't, but they I had the right to...
01:22:54
Speaker
unemployment benefits. And from my experience with the German bureaucracy, that's what I thought is waiting for me. So I was really, i really didn't want to do it.
01:23:05
Speaker
And someone told me, oh, you just go online, you log in with your ID and you fill in just that you request it. And that's it. say What?
01:23:15
Speaker
What do you mean that's it? Yeah, that's all information is pre-populated. They know how much money you made. They know how long you work. They know where you live. They know who lives with you. they they They know your education. so they They didn't understand that I was so scared, yeah which to me was like, wait a second, that's this is interesting.
01:23:36
Speaker
And from my experience in the Netherlands, when I was also talking with the financial department, so with the tax authorities, they were so... friendly. And I'm not trying to say that the Germans don't try to be friendly. and I think they're just massively overworked, um hopefully, to give them the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, that's just the...
01:24:01
Speaker
Be nice. A different opinion i would also support. Yes, yes, yes. And that's I think that's that's very interesting that you say that. it's an Bringing us back to the beginning what you said, it's an organizational problem.
01:24:13
Speaker
It's if you have the right, you have the right, and then you just get it.
Economic Impact of Unclaimed Benefits
01:24:19
Speaker
um But in Germany, it's more like... You have the right, but you have to know you have the right, and then you still have to apply for it. So it's it always has this negative connotation of you have to ask for it.
01:24:36
Speaker
But that's not how it should be if it's your right. Exactly. and And we call it, I don't know the English term for that, we say Bitsteller in Germany. So it's basically a bit like I'm a beggar. I'm going to authorities begging for money, although it's my... it's my It's my right. i can ah This is actually supposed to help you in this situation.
01:24:59
Speaker
And now going even a bit high level, um because one thing that most people don't understand because they think like artists are harming the state and artists costing the state so much and whatnot, they should work. But at the moment, first of all, on the one side, we have ah we never had so many employed people in Germany. We have the highest number of employed people actually in Germany that we ever had.
01:25:19
Speaker
um which we never mentioned the public debate. But what we have a massive problem economically is when you read the um the reports every year from the Sachverständigen Ratwirtschaft. So it's ah basically our Council of Economics in Germany. yeah And they give out an annual report.
01:25:38
Speaker
is People consume to less. they have the The demand is going back. People consume to less. And debt from that, the economy is suffering a lot. So it's not the...
01:25:48
Speaker
that the firms need a lot of investments, it's primarily that they don't have the demand at the moment. So the demand is at the end of the every supply chain is the customer or the state.
01:26:00
Speaker
And ah this part the demand from both sides was going back. And that has to do with they don't have the money. They are saving the money, particularly, i would say, but the lower income category. So everything in the in the lower 50% area.
01:26:14
Speaker
And when, and it's actually something they said as well two years ago, um when the people don't apply for their social benefits, they don't have the money to spend and then economy suffering. And it's happening such a large scale that an economy is actually realizing that is it ah literally has economic effects.
01:26:32
Speaker
But that's finally an economic debate that we never have in Germany. That's true. Yeah, we mostly talk about, or at least that is being talked about, is that we work too little, which also based on the numbers, I think it is ridiculous to say.
01:26:46
Speaker
um But it's a nice catchphrase, I'd say. Yeah. um But it's not, that's not what I'm experiencing. That's not what and now here at being at the Smart Country Convention, what I'm experiencing. It's crowded here. People want to move the needle.
01:27:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, so I don't see the... We work little. I see people working their ass off. that It's funny. You know what it's based on? There's OECD studies that actually said in in Germany, the average hour time per ah per working per week is in Germany among the lowest in the EU.
01:27:24
Speaker
And when you look at the numbers, why is why is that the case? On the other side, we work the most hours... ever So no Germany worked the most working hours overall, and than more than ever before.
01:27:36
Speaker
And we have most people employed more than ever before. So how does that come actually? It's because to make it to make a very easy picture of it and to get the idea. 20 years ago, there was one person working per family and that person was working full time. So it was like the father was working and providing for the whole family. Now you have um the father and the mother working and the mother is working part time maybe because she's also doing the care work. She's taking care of the kids and whatnot. So overall, the family is working more, but on average, they're working less because she's working 20 hours maybe, he's 40, so on average 30. Before, average 40
01:28:12
Speaker
So, that's a very funny way to fake statistics and that happened there. Yeah, I think what's more crucial about this should be that it is now actually necessary for both to work.
Leistungslotse's Collaboration Challenges
01:28:24
Speaker
I mean, regardless of who will work, right? Exactly. Or who wants to stay home, you can't afford it anymore.
01:28:31
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think that's the more crucial statistic here. um Yeah. This sounds negative. Let's switch this back positive a little bit. On a rather cheerful note now. Yes, please. um Coming back to Leistungslose.
01:28:48
Speaker
What do you think are some pressing questions that still need to be figured out? what is What's on the horizon for you where you think if these hurdles are solved, the ball is going to roll? And not only for the municipalities and for the users, but I mean, license loads is in the middle of that. So then also for you, of course.
01:29:05
Speaker
ah Definitely a lot of small ones. so so stuff like Because a lot of um benefits are, for instance for instance, health insurances are in charge of them or care insurances.
01:29:17
Speaker
So there's a bit of struggle. How can we collaborate with them? At the moment, we talked with them already and everybody's having their own services and don't really want to integrate anything to anything. um so But I think these are this is matter of traction because as soon as you have a certain amount of users, they say, okay, then maybe makes sense. The adoption curve.
01:29:37
Speaker
Exactly. um But what is one of the big barriers, I would say, um the um administration... employment agency in Germany because a lot of um a lot of benefits are handled by them and they are very yeah close systems. So basically working together with them is basically not possible. They're actually one of them the ones that are really advanced in terms of digitalization because they have at least centralized online services for nearly every type of benefit.
01:30:09
Speaker
But yeah Interesting. ah um Yeah, side. I didn't know that. That's pretty good. Yes, ah but on the other side, they are not often um mostly on an individual basis, but overall not really collaborating or integrating with the others. So with the social administrations, with the living allowance administrations, because they say, ah this is a different ministry, this is a different different department, I'm not in charge.
01:30:33
Speaker
um But the people don't think in that way. They don't care whether I apply for citizens allowance a living allowance. They say I have a demand and what do where do I need to apply for what. So I would hope that the ones that are sitting in the municipalities, the other ones, living allowance social benefits, they are more collaborating um also when it comes to student work, for instance, or the student authorities for student support.
01:30:59
Speaker
um But as soon as we come to all the ones of the employment agency, they're on a closed source.
Resources for Public Administration Digitalization
01:31:06
Speaker
So we try, i would say, this is something we still need to figure out. How can we work with them in the very best way?
01:31:13
Speaker
The social regulation is there very much in our favor because in the end, everything is form free, we say. So they are not, they accept some, in some ways, they're written form requirements in the law.
01:31:26
Speaker
But it can be done actually every application process without any written form requirements or whatsoever. so basically you can even call them and should be able to make an application by a phone.
01:31:38
Speaker
Maybe you request an additional certificate or some declarations in the aftermath written, but you can basically do it, should be able to do it like that. So that's good for us. So even if they're not connected to us, we can actually still send them applications and they need to take.
01:31:52
Speaker
but So what I hear out is interoperability, potentially some data centralization or at least access for interoperability. Those things seem to be very crucial and well, not only digital interoperability, but actually between departments where the the closed, well, that's not my responsibility type of, um let's say, organizational system is is a little pulled down.
01:32:24
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. And of course, the legacy software providers, unfortunately. I mean, we still rely a bit on them at the moment. But um in terms of when the municipalities are using their software and say, okay, for for the administrative side inside of the ah of the authority, I work with the software. How do I get an API to that? How? can I connect with the software? um That's often struggles that we have. So sometimes we even try to figure out workarounds maybe with RPA or stuff like that.
01:32:55
Speaker
But it's, yeah, we we see now something is, as I said, at least in this direction, something is moving because they fear, i ah my impression is they also fear business breaking off.
01:33:10
Speaker
from them it will it will for sure and if they don't act now it will be rather abrupt yeah yeah uh and now this this it sounds um this is a very complex topic and very different many different angles now when it comes to i mean for the listener who might want to learn some more about this do you have some good resources to recommend are there any books Except for the law books.
01:33:41
Speaker
I would not even recommend the law books for that, honestly. um but Depends, I mean, ah particularly when it comes to digitalization of public of administrations, you would say.
01:33:53
Speaker
There, for instance, there is the e-government podcast, which is very recommendable. They talk a lot about those topics and also I think in a way that people understand it actually more. um But also, i must say, for instance, ah there are some public um forums and forums yeah buddies that are yeah kind of in the in the center of the digitalization, like the FITCO or the IT Council working more on a federal level or collaboration as collaboration of the country states.
01:34:28
Speaker
And they have also a lot of stuff online where you simply can read through, you get easy through it. And honestly, meanwhile, I figured out JetGPT is also really a good source for this stuff. He's collecting very, very good data on this.
01:34:40
Speaker
Worst case, sometimes we're also posting on on everything that is relevant in our area. We have also a government block, meanwhile, GovTech block and posting stuff there too.
01:34:52
Speaker
particularly for the authorities because uh we according to the questions that they ask us yeah yeah yeah okay makes sense because you have to you have to kind of answer to both sides right the users and the the um customers yeah in that sense Markus, thanks so much for your time. i mean, ah I hope I didn't chew your ear off. I think this is a very interesting topic and I think it's very important to, well, to go through this thoroughly because tearing down, well, I shouldn't say tearing down, changing already stock systems is very, very difficult and challenging, especially if many different things
01:35:32
Speaker
different parts are involved. It's going to make it make it very, very difficult. But I think it's necessary to do. think we all know it's necessary to do and it has to happen sooner or later. I think it's pretty cool.
01:35:44
Speaker
Sometimes even tearing them down if necessary. If necessary, yeah. ah But you have to offer, an note I think it's important, you have to offer an alternative on the fly.
01:35:55
Speaker
Yes. So things can work. It cannot just be, let's tear them down. Let's see how shit hits the fan and then let's do something about it. No, no, no, no, no. Exactly. Too many people would suffer in this regard.
01:36:06
Speaker
That's the point. we we We try to give everybody a hand. So we try even even when we probably roasted a bit the legacy software providers and the system i behind that, the public system houses that are existing.
01:36:19
Speaker
And I would say the startup bubble, yes, we are roasting them a bit because they're strong gatekeepers towards but But um of course, you cannot generalize. There are some of them who are really doing a good job, who are really trying to to shift something and break up this the structures that they're underlying.
01:36:36
Speaker
So I think in the end, um a lot of people trying to go in the right direction. I think this this exhibition that we have here, this My Country Convention, is a very, very good example for that. Also the fact that it's growing year by year And that we have a digital ministry meanwhile.
01:36:53
Speaker
But now um planning and regulating is over. Now it's time to execute. Yes, exactly. um Speaking of execute...
01:37:05
Speaker
If people want to find you and want to reach out, where can they find you? um On LinkedIn, I would say. On LinkedIn, all right. Basically on LinkedIn. Also on our website, I mean, on leisungslose.com, we have a contact page. They can reach out to me and my team.
01:37:21
Speaker
um But basically, um you can say Google me. Yeah, yeah. I'll put all all those links in the show notes as well so people don't have to write it down. Good. Well, yeah.
01:37:32
Speaker
Again, thanks so much for your time and to everyone listening. Thanks for having me. Have a great day. Thanks. Thanks, Achmar.
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:37:40
Speaker
Hey everyone, just one more thing before you go. I hope you enjoyed the show and to stay up to date with future episodes and extra content, you can sign up to the blog and you'll get an email every Friday that provides some fun before you head off for the weekend.
01:37:54
Speaker
Don't worry, it'll be a short email where I share cool things that I have found or what I've been up to. If you want to receive that, just go to ajmal.com, A-D-J-M-A-L.com and you can sign up right there.
01:38:09
Speaker
I hope you enjoy. it