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#2 - Erwin de Boer - How sound is used for design and branding
12 Plays5 years ago
Sounds are all around us but how are they used to affect us? Even if we don’t think about it but sound logos are all around us. In this episode we talk to Erwin de Boer (@boer1993). He’s working as a marketing expert and has plenty of experience as a sound brand designer. He gives us a deeper look into different levels of sound branding and how these are approached and implemented.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, what's up, everyone? This is Hajmal Savare and welcome to another podcast episode. Our guest today is Erwin Du Boer. He's a good friend of mine and in this conversation, we talk about the use of sound for sound design and branding. We often don't even realize how sounds are used and how profoundly they impact us. Enjoy.
Ajmal and Erwin's Background
00:00:33
Speaker
Hey everyone, and welcome to another podcast episode. If you're new here, my name's Ajmal. I'm a neuroscientist and entrepreneur. On this podcast, we explore the links between science, technology, business, and the impact they have on all of us.
00:00:48
Speaker
Our guest today is Erwin Du Boer. Erwin is currently working as a marketing expert and has ample experience as a sound brand designer.
Sound Branding Experiences
00:00:55
Speaker
He also expanded his hands-on experience to video and photography. He created sounds for many clients, among which are Einhoven Airport, Wave Kitchen Products, to 3D audio for virtual reality applications for the company Zoll.
00:01:09
Speaker
He kindly shares his industry experience and how different levels of sound branding are approached and implemented. We also discuss opportunities to incorporate sound or music in different locations and scenarios to improve the experience itself. At the end, he also reveals questions he has for science.
00:01:27
Speaker
You can find Erwin at asuwar.nl or boor and moose.nl on Instagram is at asuwar.nl. His personal handle is at boor1993. You can find all this information in the show notes as well. Enough background. Let's get into it, shall we?
00:01:47
Speaker
How are you doing today, Aaron? Yeah, awesome. Awesome. No, thanks for taking the time. Let me just say that already because it's a beautiful Saturday and we're sitting inside to have good sound. Yeah, I actually proposed to sit outside. You did, you did, but well...
00:02:02
Speaker
No, inside's better. You know how it goes with these motorcyclists also enjoying this weather. They can be quite annoying. Me being a motorcyclist myself. I know, I know. Even I think that. Now, so today what I wanted is to talk to you about the user experience of sound design and its branding impact.
Impact of Sound Design
00:02:20
Speaker
And what I generally like to do is to
00:02:24
Speaker
with every guest that comes on to just have a little bit of their, their, yeah, how can I say funny anecdotes to tell about themselves. So as with everybody else, I did my research, talked to plenty of people and a little bit scared now. Oh, you don't have to be scared. Well, who knows? I don't know. Um, so I heard you sleepwalk.
00:02:50
Speaker
And this is, we know each other for quite some time now. And I have not known this about you. I actually don't, I don't think I literally sleepwalk.
00:03:00
Speaker
But I am very active in my sleep and I at least talk a lot in my sleep. Well, you defended yourself once against dinosaurs in your sleep. Yeah, that's true, but it's not really walking. It was more like standing up on the bed. That's like sleep fighting. You know, protecting ours from the roof coming down on our head. So I actually kicked my girlfriend out of bed to save her from the dinosaurs breaking in from the roof.
00:03:29
Speaker
Did you buy it? It was actually really sweet because, you know, I tried to save her. No, I believe you. But did she believe you? She got out of bed. Yeah. So.
Sound Logos Game
00:03:39
Speaker
Maybe for a second. Is she still your girlfriend? Yeah. Then she believed you. That's good. She can laugh about it. Just not always at that moment. I mean, if it's in the middle of the night and you were to kick me out of bed, I would have a hard time to look past that because I love my sleep.
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, she does too and she's already quite a light sleeper. So she wakes up from every little bit of noise or sound or whatever happens around. Needle dropping on the floor. Oh really, that light? So I wake her pretty often and pretty easily. So I don't think she's too happy about it. But you know... She must be... She's looking passive. I'm very lovable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:04:27
Speaker
Oh, okay. That's interesting. She told me that story a little differently. Maybe we will have a follow up on this on this with her. But yeah, so when we start, so what I want to do
00:04:43
Speaker
is to just give the audience a little bit more of a, you know, just to sound design and sound branding sounds to most people a little abstract. Just because it's, you know, it's, how can I say it's something that happens every day, but it is so subtle that people don't even notice it. So for that, I wanted to start playing a little game with you. And I call this,
00:05:09
Speaker
Guess the sound logo game. OK, cool. So I'm going to just play some. This also goes for the audience listening. I'm just going to play some sounds. And you have to guess what, well, where that comes from. All right? OK.
00:05:25
Speaker
Okay, so let's see how that goes. And where did all this go now? Here it is. All right. So no, no, no, don't look at it because then you can see the names of it. All right. So let's start with...
00:05:40
Speaker
this one. Oh, yeah. Oh, people. I think everyone will know all of these. At least afterwards. Don't put out the pressure, please. Definitely after it's revealed what it is, then everybody will be like, Oh, yeah, that's it. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's start with this one.
00:06:10
Speaker
Disney. Pixar. Disney. Pixar. Disney. Yes. Very good. Very good. OK. Took a little while. 15 seconds, though. I mean, the sound logo itself is 31 seconds long. OK. That's quite long for his sound logo. All right. I think it's more their anthem or something. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, you're right. Their anthem. You have to correct me, OK? Because I don't know anything about this stuff. I don't think there's an officially difference between both of them or something. OK. Let's do this one.
00:06:42
Speaker
21st century... What is it? 21st century Fox? 20th century Fox. 20th century. Yeah, the film producer company. Exactly. All right. Man, that's pretty good. Two for two. Okay. Let me play the next one. So let's do it like this. Let me just play the whole thing and then we do the guess. Cool. All right. Okay. So the Intel. Oh, fuck.
00:07:06
Speaker
Seriously? You're making this a little easier. Yeah, sorry. No, this was not on purpose. Damn it. OK, how about this? Want to play it again?
00:07:23
Speaker
Now I know the sound, but I just not sure to which company it belongs. I think it's from your phone. Yeah. But I think it's the Apple camera. Yes. Exactly. It's the Apple camera. I have a Samsung and I know my camera. My phone doesn't sound like that. Yeah, exactly. Okay. What about, okay. This is a bit of a more difficult one. Um,
00:07:52
Speaker
Well, maybe not that difficult. T-Mobile. Yes. Skype. Skype. Very good. Nokia.
00:08:09
Speaker
Nokia, man, you're good. You kind of prepared me for saying that there was something like this coming up. That's true. That's true. I did all sound logos available. Check on YouTube before... No, you didn't. Okay, next one. Windows. Which one? But you're already right. It is Windows. I think it's...
00:08:39
Speaker
XP. Yes, it's Windows XP. Now in contrast to that. Maybe it's Apple. It's definitely not Linux. Okay, I wouldn't even know what Linux would sound like.
00:08:56
Speaker
Nothing, actually. There's nothing? There's nothing. That might be a good client. Yeah, you could put something in there, but they're not very... Oh, you can put something in there like for yourself. Yeah, you could, but it's not... That's awesome. It doesn't come with something predefined like this. I want to tell my MacBook too that I can just put in some strange startup sound. Actually, they got rid of it. It's not in the new MacBooks anymore. No, I noticed because I updated my MacBook and it's gone.
00:09:20
Speaker
Yeah. It's actually, I find that very sad. I thought it was quite nice to have that. It was like something greeting you. At least you know that it's starting up. That's also true. Yeah. Aside from the visuals. That's true. Okay. Let's do two more. This one's a little harder. Okay. Let me just play it and then let's see if you get it afterwards.
00:09:54
Speaker
So I have to admit, this is not completely fair, because it's not that the sequence was a type of sound logo from someone. No, but it's a typing sound from, I think, iPhone. Yeah, damn. OK, wow. I would have never guessed that. I would have never. You would definitely have guessed it. Well, because all my sounds are turned off, because this really, I personally get very annoyed by these sounds.
00:10:17
Speaker
So the hard thing with this kind of sound, does it belong to the manufacturer of the phone or to WhatsApp? Right. No, in this case, it belongs to Apple, really. All these sounds because it's the keyboard typing. So if you use it in WhatsApp or Skype or whichever it is, it belongs to Apple. OK, then let's take the last one.
00:10:48
Speaker
Is it the iPhone standard? Very good. Ringtone. Ringtone? Yes. Yes. All right. Man, you were good. I didn't prepare you. I mentioned I wanted to do something like this maybe. But interesting. Did a bit of research there. Yeah, I was about to say. This sounds like you did, actually. But from all of this, I mean, I think now it's becoming pretty clear.
00:11:16
Speaker
that the topic of sound branding is basically this. All these sounds are around us all the time. We don't even, we use them, you get them as feedback or as notifications or things you interact with and you know immediately what's going on and when you hear those. At least when I'm in a cafe and somebody's sitting there with their Mac and they're opening and starting it, I know immediately. Even if I don't see that, I just hear like boop and I know immediately, okay, someone's sitting there with their Mac.
00:11:46
Speaker
Same goes in the movie theater. When you hear these start things, these starting studios with their trailers, that even there, I wouldn't even have to look and I know exactly who it is. I don't think it's always that you know who it is or what brand it is. It's also just to
00:12:08
Speaker
the vibe you get from it. Like if I would hear a ringtone that's the same as my phone, you would just immediately look up. It's also a very functional thing. Exactly. Because you know what's going to come after it or you know what the intention of the sound is. Yeah. For example, when you start up your Mac, you look around because you think, oh, shit, where's my Macbook or something. Yeah, exactly. Or when you hear the sound of your ringtone, you want to check for a message. Definitely. So it's not just the linking to a brand. I think it's also the
00:12:38
Speaker
simply a function that it has. Yeah, but it's that they are so distinct. That's I mean, that's why I would my first quote, this actually brings directly to the question of why do you think sound branding is so important in the first place?
Significance of Sound Branding
00:12:53
Speaker
I think that sound branding is just one part of using sound for branding or for marketing or for communication. Sound branding is simply just using sound to create a distinct brand, make your brand recognizable. In it, just the medium of sound then. Yeah, just by the medium of sound.
00:13:16
Speaker
Because of course you can mix it with visuals. It goes perfectly with video, it goes perfectly with environment for example. So if you're in a store and you hear a commercial over the speakers.
00:13:31
Speaker
a lot of times there's a sound logo involved. And I think that sound branding, like creating a distinctive brand that's recognizable and also consistent and supports the brand communications. Another part of sound or how you can use sound for communications is very functional. And that's what I was just saying about ringtones, for example, they're not they're not a way of branding.
00:14:00
Speaker
or they're not made just for branding, they're actually very functional use of sound. And that goes for a lot of applications. For example, you actually would call it an aircon, like you have an icon, some visual thing. What's an example of an icon? Oh, I don't know. A parking sign or something, whatever. Yeah, whatever. A Facebook logo. It's also you can use an icon, of course. It's a visual link to something
00:14:30
Speaker
functional, actually, like if I would click on there, you would go somewhere or if I see a parking sign, the Facebook thumbs up, the like, that's the icon, everybody knows what it is. Aircons, which is a sound that has the exact same function.
00:14:46
Speaker
actually a function itself. Yeah. So that's, for example, the typing on the keyboard of your of your iPhone is actually very functional sound because you know that you're actually hitting a letter or you're typing something. Yeah. So and that's I think that's a different application of sound. Right. I think third, there's the kind of behavioral application of sound.
00:15:13
Speaker
Yeah. What do you mean by that? So I think sound or music can really influence the way you feel or the way you behave. And you can actually put that to use, of course. And that happens in everyday life.
00:15:32
Speaker
For example, in stores where background music is being played. And you can use that music of course to be consistent with your brand. But you can also use it to make people feel at ease or to make people feel comfortable to stay longer in store.
00:15:54
Speaker
Or to definitely annoy them if you were to play rock, let's say like heavy metal in a supermarket. But that could be annoying. But for some stores or for some place that could actually really work out very well. Yeah. Because people would feel if that's a place that's really focusing on the metalheads. I don't know. Maybe a specific type of clothing store. Yeah. Or music store or something. If it's really like
00:16:24
Speaker
aimed at metalheads. It could really work out well if you just play metal in there, of course. And that might actually make people stay longer or make them feel better at home.
00:16:34
Speaker
So, but it's also kind of a brand image thing. Right. But it's, it's kind of, so if I got it correctly is the first, the first part that you mean is basically to support an audio identity for the brand. The second part is to have it functional and more of a.
00:16:55
Speaker
user interaction type of feedback. And the third one is more mood inducing related so that you can, because in movies do this all the time. They're the masters of doing this. You would watch a movie without sound?
00:17:11
Speaker
99% of the time it's really strange. You totally don't get what the whole scene is about. And if you put the music under there, you feel the tension or you feel the happiness or you feel whatever emotion the director intended you to have.
00:17:27
Speaker
This is what I actually, so I like to watch lots of movies and today I saw a movie review where the reviewer has actually pointed out specifically the sound, how do you call that?
00:17:45
Speaker
Not the sound chord, the musical score. That was it. That he said that in certain scenes, they were so corny that though it would have been fine if they were kept in that tone. But the music or the sound, the acoustic support for that was very contrasting. So the music and the sound and that moment actually tried to make the scene very
00:18:14
Speaker
you know serious and dramatic but how the scene was shot was very comedic so that actually led to so much confusion for the for the viewers to it was in complete contrast to each other well if that's what you intend it worked out really well
00:18:31
Speaker
But that's not what they intended. That's not what they intended. They went something awfully wrong. They wanted. They wanted it to be a serious moment, which was not supported by how it was filmed, but was made like this with the music.
Aligning Brand Identity
00:18:44
Speaker
And then after two, of course, don't match. Yeah, I mean, you actually.
00:18:49
Speaker
you don't get a supporting increase in the, I guess, in the emotional intensity of that scene, you actually create complete confusion because the two just don't match. And often, so I've noticed this often in movies where, when that happens, is that the viewers, they walk out of the movie
00:19:11
Speaker
just saying I didn't like it but they are not able to put their finger on why not and often I notice it's exactly this this incongruency of two different mediums that are supposed to complement each other
00:19:28
Speaker
But where something went a little off. Yeah, I think that's with movies, but that's also just branding, you know? Right. And if you if you ask what's a name, a random brand that you think is like recognizable and inconsistent in what they do.
00:19:47
Speaker
Every brand that people name is a brand that always uses the same logo, always uses the same visuals, always uses the same colors. Everything is correct, you know, and consistent with each other, with all the elements. And for example, if you look at bands, it would be really strange if you see a couple of heavy metal guys playing this classical theme or something. Yeah, yeah, that would be out of there. That would completely be out of...
00:20:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's like out of character type. Although it might be really funny and it might be a really good band. But you see that the bands who have a lot of success are the bands in which the visuals complete the sound. So if you look like a couple of regular guys, everyday dads, and you're making this
00:20:37
Speaker
rebellious kind of rock music or something or hip hop or whatever, it's not matching. And it won't work out. People won't understand it. And I think that's branding. The complete picture should be a match. Yeah, you're right. I just realized now, because we were talking about movies, you have this product placement in movies all the time.
00:21:05
Speaker
But I have never noticed product placement, but all the product placement is visual. I have never really noticed audio product placing. But I honestly don't know, you know, there is of course a lot of branded sound in movies as well. If you're a ringtone or something in a movie, it's also mostly it's actually the ringtone from an actual brand. Right.
00:21:29
Speaker
I honestly don't know if that's sound product placement that there's being paid for that. It might be possible. It should be. Yeah, but I know there might be a market in there. They definitely should. I think so because you have to, you, you, when you put something in a movie, when it comes to visual product placement, you must rely on the recognizability of your brand in the first place or that your logo is going to be seen while at the same time, sometimes, um,
00:21:59
Speaker
In some movies, it is so obviously product placement that it damages the movie. They're really zooming to a product or to a can of Coke or something. Yeah, exactly. But if you had somebody in a scene just drink a Coke, and I don't know, on the radio in the background, you were to hear their sound logo.
00:22:20
Speaker
that would be much less intrusive and yet still recognizable. And I don't think it would very much damage. I mean, if you, of course, put the gain of that sound logo up all the way, which you definitely shouldn't, then it would damage it again. But I think this could be something where not much attention has been paid to.
00:22:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's actually hard because, you know, a brand sounds specifically made for a brand. So it should also match or have a good have a fitting place within a movie. Yeah, of course, of course, of course. I think that's the hard part. Yeah. And I think that's also hard to commercialize and to create some kind of business out of that. Right. Because there are probably not so many
00:23:02
Speaker
movies or scenes in which you can actually fit that. But on the other hand, for example, there is a very big business in syncs, placing music in movies, in commercials, for example.
Music Placement in Ads
00:23:16
Speaker
So if I were to have a band and I've recorded an album and I've got a song that's
00:23:25
Speaker
working out for the public and it's getting attention. A lot of bands also have a publisher which focuses on syncs, so on promoting that song or maybe an whole album to movie produced for example.
00:23:43
Speaker
to advertising agencies. Oh, I did not know that. To place that song actually in ads or in movies. Yeah. And there's a very big business around that, of course, because if your song gets used in a commercial or in a movie, right, it will probably help you. Sure. A long way. Yeah. For example, if you do you remember the Nikon commercial? I think it's Nikon.
00:24:05
Speaker
No, which one? I think it's with Robbie Williams. You see Robbie Williams on stage with, you know, making a selfie with the crowd. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know that one. There's a there's a song in that commercial and also a couple of other commercials from Nikon. It's from Radical Face. OK. I don't recall what the song's called.
00:24:28
Speaker
But if you would look up that song, I guarantee you, you think of that commercial, even though you don't. You don't know it. Or not consciously. Yeah, exactly. If I would hear a song, I would immediately think of Naikam. Yeah. And the same goes for IKEA had this song from... Oh man, I suck at names. I can look it up. I can look it up. But this is definitely something that I didn't know. It's with the whistle in it.
00:25:00
Speaker
Ah. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know how well my whistle comes out on sound. I will make it work. But I think you know which song, I mean, if I hear that song, I immediately think of IKEA. Yeah. And that's actually kind of branding for the artist of the song, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, in the end, it's all about creating these associations that you want, which at the beginning, of course, you
00:25:27
Speaker
They don't exist yet, but that I think is the nice thing about sound because it does come with inherent harmonies, which are already automatically associated with certain types of mood. But before we go into that detail.
00:25:43
Speaker
And please keep in mind, I have no idea about this, okay? So if you go in too much detail, I will stop you. But how is then, so if you are a company and you just start out and you are thinking of, okay, we need a brand, then you, of course, most of the time only think about the visuals.
Creating a Sonic Identity
00:26:02
Speaker
how is actually a sonic identity created in the first place? Because it's not just a sound logo, it's an entire, I guess, right? Because you have with visuals, you have this house style approach and it must, is it similar in sound? It's actually exactly the same. Oh, it's exactly the same. I would say if you would do a project for a client
00:26:26
Speaker
for visual identity. If you have all the information you need for the visual identity and your composer, you can create the audio identity for the company because the
00:26:41
Speaker
Actually, the input for audio is just the same. It's the brand identity. And if you know what the characteristics are of the brand, what's actually the feel of the brand? What's the brand voice? What do you want to communicate? Then a designer would make a logo out of it and a composer would make a sound out of it. Can you walk me through an example?
00:27:09
Speaker
So for example, if we were making an audio identity for a company, we would start out with a session just to, well, it's actually kind of an interview, but we try to make it more like a conversation. Okay. Hold on. Let's just, I mean, you made the Sonic identity for us. Yeah. So because I.
00:27:32
Speaker
I have to be honest with you, I don't recall what you actually asked me. I don't think we did the exact structure as we regularly would, but it's also because, you know.
00:27:45
Speaker
We share an office. Yeah, you see me every day. So we see each other every day. We talk about it. Yeah. Just in between. Right. But if that had not been the case. If that would not have been the case, we would have sat down and talked about your brand to start with. And now keep in mind, I don't think a lot of people even understand the concept of a brand.
00:28:08
Speaker
Now there's actually the term, a brand is actually pretty vague and what is a brand that can be the physical thing, of course, the product. It can also be the association, the name or the visuals or whatever comes with it. So, okay. We talk about your company and mostly about what do you want to communicate and how do you want to communicate it. And of course, before that, why is it that what you,
00:28:34
Speaker
What you want to do and what you want to say to your customers or to your audience or whatever and I think you can compare it to Just to a person How would your brand? Look like what what does it look like when it would be when it will be a person? What would his?
00:29:00
Speaker
What would you look like? What would you wear? So you're trying to kind of psychoanalyze a personality profile almost. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. And I think most agencies also do that when they create visual identity. At least they should, right? At least they should. And the second part is not the identity of the brand,
00:29:27
Speaker
to who are you actually talking to the audience or your customers or whatever kind of company you have. And that's the second important part, because if you're this really rebellious company and you're trying to break all the rules, but your customers are actually the type, your product is focused on people who
00:29:55
Speaker
are looking for security, say bankers, bankers, whatever. Yeah. Then there might be quite a mismatch and I actually don't think your business is going to work out. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But so you also need to know the customer's end of the chain. Yeah. What's how is he going to receive communications? How does he want to receive communications and try to understand a bit more of the customer on the other end? So.
00:30:24
Speaker
If you have this information, we always actually try to characterize a brand.
00:30:35
Speaker
We use, um, archetypes for this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we actually try to say, okay, this brand is this type of a personality. Right. And based on that, uh, you look at, okay, so if that would be sound.
00:30:58
Speaker
If this is the product, if this is his personality, if this is the way he communicates over these channels, you can think about, okay, what would that sound like? And what kind of sounds do you actually need for it? And then you start deciding like, okay, which sounds do I actually need? How long of a sound for which purposes? How should they be used? And then you start actually creating those sounds.
00:31:29
Speaker
So that you basically get the sonic identity first and then depending on what we talked about before, right? The three, let's just call it three levels. Is it your, is it a sound that's supposed to support your brand logo? Is it a sound that's supposed to...
00:31:48
Speaker
If you make a product, let's say a phone, some sounds specific for interaction and then some sounds for inducing some. You actually start with the identity, audio identity. So, OK, if your brand would have would have a voice or a sound, what would it sound like? And we just we don't make it yet. We just put it on paper like, OK, it should be like happy, fast,
00:32:17
Speaker
And there are a lot of musical parameters you can actually attach to it of course. Yeah. Yeah. Like tonality and the tempo. Pitch. Pitch. So much. Also the.
00:32:29
Speaker
uh, cultural associations. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Which types of instruments. Yeah. For example, that kind of stuff. And the second step is exactly what you say. It's actually the strategy. Like what are you going to do with music? How is it going to be put to use? Where can we put it to use? Right. So you actually know the, um,
00:32:50
Speaker
The boundaries. Yeah. The boundaries of what you're going to do. Yeah. Because you, I mean, you can create a 10 minute track out of that brand identity. Yeah. That never gets used. That never gets used because there's no place you couldn't use a 10 minute score. Yeah, that's true. For that company, for example. At the beginning of a movie, maybe. Yeah. But then, so when you do this type of sound, sorry, sonic identity or a sound branding project,
Sound Branding Project Stages
00:33:21
Speaker
So from the structure, it sounds then to me that you basically first try to figure out, okay, what is it that our client actually wants? What's the target? Then ask a bunch of profiling questions to see
00:33:38
Speaker
What is the client actually trying to represent? And then also what's the target group, their target group actually like? I think it's just the other way around. Oh, the other way around. Yeah, clients don't, clients always think they know what they want and not just clients, just people. People in general. People in general. But when you ask them a couple of questions, most of the times they don't really know what they want. So, okay, then walk me through a general project structure. How would that look like?
00:34:09
Speaker
Just, just a random project. Just a random project. Just a random project. Okay. So we start out with, of course, the first talk with people. Yeah. Like.
00:34:19
Speaker
let's get to know each other. The client wants to do something with music or maybe has a very specific question. And we just come over and talk about what that is. Then we, of course, do a proposal based on that conversation. But it's in the proposal that nothing is composed yet. Nothing is composed yet, no. If we're going to do this, we would take this project on like this.
00:34:49
Speaker
And the outcome would probably be something like it. But also the outcome is not always clear, because that depends, of course, on the first part. Yeah, exactly. And then when you're good to go, you start the project with a conversation or interview about the brand identity. And not about the goal, because, you know,
00:35:13
Speaker
A client might say, yeah, I want a brand score. And then at some point when you ask a bit more about that, it might become clear that he actually has no use for a brand score because there are actually no channels in which you can put brand square to use. He might be, there might be a, he might be way better help with a playlist thing for his store or something. Okay. I see. I see.
00:35:36
Speaker
So it's not always that the question is really the solution, that there's a solution to the question directly. Yeah. So and the second part is talking about the goal. What would you like to achieve with music? Which channels can we put to use?
00:36:00
Speaker
And you see that a lot of times people ask for one specific thing like, okay, I need a sound for an advertising campaign or for, I need a brand score for social media videos or whatever. And when you talk a bit more about it, it becomes clear that there are actually way much more channels involved in which music can be put to use. And I think.
00:36:25
Speaker
That's interesting exploiting because if you would only, um, use one channel to put, to actively put music to use, you can create a consistent brand sound. Makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So why not do it right where we're at it and spread it all out. Overall your channels. Yeah. So that's the second sound logically, like, okay, where can we put it to use and how can we get most out of it? Basically, right.
00:36:55
Speaker
And so when we have the brand identity clear and we know how we can put music to use, we start composing based on the brand identity. Yeah.
00:37:11
Speaker
And of course, then you also know what you're composing for. Yeah, exactly. So you, that might be, we need a brand score. We need a sound logo. We need a, we do a lot of, uh, uh, yeah, we called like mood packs. So what is that? The brand score is one basic version of, uh,
00:37:30
Speaker
of your brand sound. So it might be a three minute track. That's like the center of your audio identity, actually. Right. So everything should basically be based on that. But for one video, you might need a more sad kind of sound or you might need a bit more uplifting sound.
00:37:51
Speaker
Whatever. But then the same core is used, but slightly adjusted. We can create a new track based on the brand score that maybe has the same instrument, maybe has the same melody, but
00:38:07
Speaker
actually build differently so that it sounds different. Just for me to make now the parallel with visuals, because in visuals, of course you have certain features that you don't have an audio and vice versa.
00:38:23
Speaker
But when you have a house style of a certain brand, you have a font type, you have certain types of icons, let's say how how these icons are shaped as round edges, hard edges, colors, size, and all of those things. And of course, if you then make something else, let's say you make a new icon, you with what that icon represents, you need to adjust these things slightly, but still need to make sure you don't
00:38:54
Speaker
You stay consistent. Yeah, exactly. As you said before, there needs to be some type of reoccurring theme to be associated with that brand. And I guess that's then the parallel in audio as well. It's just that you have different features now that you can play with being at rhythm, the speed basically, being at pitch, being tone, being at instruments.
00:39:20
Speaker
Um, yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. So actually a part one delivery, uh, is actually always kind of a style guide for music. So that's, that's besides the actual music itself, the output is also, okay, how do you put it to use? Right. Uh, so there are, for example, uh, 20 audio files in, in which we.
Using a Style Guide
00:39:47
Speaker
20 different compositions, for example, the audio logo, the brand score, a mood pack with six different kinds of sounds, air counts for application, opening sound for Apple, for whatever. And there might be a playlist for... for...
00:40:03
Speaker
stores or for whatever kind of physical environment. But when you don't know how to use it, it's going to bring you nowhere, of course. It's definitely going to bring you nowhere. It might even actually work against you, just like in the movies. If you use one type of sound in a wrong situation, you actually shoot yourself in the foot.
00:40:22
Speaker
So we also create this kind of style guide for music, like which of these sounds should be used where and how, but also if you're going to use other sounds, because a lot of times, you know, you have this sound pack with some sounds and that's a nice start. But when you're going to do a
00:40:45
Speaker
very specific brand movie or something, or you're going to do a campaign with, uh, uh, well, maybe with an artist or maybe with in collaboration with, with another party, you might need sound that's exactly fitting to that situation. Yeah. And you might not have that yet. So how do you choose music in that case? That's also part of the sell guide.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so do you often get asked by clients because I mean, of course you you're saying, look, we're making this type of of sound logo for you because your your brand is I don't know, let's say fresh dynamic new and the target group is 25 year olds. Yeah.
00:41:30
Speaker
Do you often get asked how can you prove that this is actually what the sound is evoking as an emotion? Yeah, sometimes, but people also understand that music actually just with visuals is
00:41:53
Speaker
for the bigger part, feeling and emotion. And I think a lot of people can actually already kind of feel based on their guts if it fits or not. So that already takes away a lot of those of these doubts. But yeah, people ask this and I think we always try to prove what we make. For example, there's a lot of research
00:42:20
Speaker
has been done to what different kind of tempos or a different kind of instrument due to your heartbeat or how they make people behave, for example, in store or in whatever kind of environment. So there is some research that you can use to actually, well, not prove, but would you say that
00:42:51
Speaker
to, well, back up, basically, to back up your choices. Yeah. I mean, it's not like, you know, the other end is, it's also just a test. Yeah. Yeah. You know, use it in campaigns and whatever, and it might not always be a hundred percent accurate yet. Right. Right. I mean, it needs to change something. And that's also with visuals. I mean, with visuals, see how logos or brands change over the years. Yeah. Definitely. It's also very much a sense of time.
00:43:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. The music you make now might not be the reflection of your brand in 10 years. Yeah. I mean, you can just look at the Windows logo, how that has changed over the years until now. The sound actually also has changed. I mean, Windows... What is it now? 10? I've got no idea. I don't use Windows. Well, Windows... I think something like that. I think it's 10. I'm not certain. I think the last one I used was 7. But let's just say 7 then. From Windows 95 until Windows 7,
00:43:45
Speaker
and potentially 10 if it's out yet. The sound has consistently changed, but the core, I would say, did stay consistent. They actually adapted it to time and overtime. Yeah, definitely.
00:44:04
Speaker
And I think that's especially the case with brands who have a very... And the visuals too. The visuals as well. Yeah, of course. But I think that's mostly the case for brands who have a very distinct identity. Right. For example, Red Bull is one of those companies who's really like... Yeah.
00:44:20
Speaker
They have a really clear way of communicating. Everything should be tough, rebellious, get out there and do things, you know? A little bit like GoPro. So the music that's actually consistent with that really changes over time because in five years there might be another kind of music that has that vibe and that feeling. And in the 90s that might have been, whatever, run DMC, whatever.
00:44:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And now it might be some kind of metal or hip hop or... Maybe some trap music. Maybe some trap music. So it's not just your identity changes over time, but also the world in which your brand is currently active changes really fast.
Adapting Music to Cultural Shifts
00:45:09
Speaker
And you should also adapt to that, of course. Right. I mean the culture of your target group.
00:45:14
Speaker
constantly changing. So that's obviously you need to adapt to that then. Just based on what you said before, I mean, the personality of the brand might have not changed, but the cultural influence of your target customers might have. And that you need to watch. I mean, it makes sense. I mean, it makes total sense. Okay. But so if we leave sound branding for a moment, how is sound design normally used? And how is that different from sound branding?
00:45:46
Speaker
That's a good question. Well, I think that should more be the question is more what's the difference between music and sound design. And I think you could say that music is more a thing on its own and sound design is supporting something else.
00:46:05
Speaker
Like the functionality you mentioned before, for example. Yeah, for example, functionality, but it can also be sound design in movies. If there's music, for example, music, you can listen to music without any visuals and it will be a thing on its own. Sound design, not really. Not really.
00:46:27
Speaker
subject to something. What could that like door open in a scene? That's what they call foley. Oh, okay. So that's actually the sounds they record to be consistent with the visuals. Like if you hear a door cracking. Oh, I thought they recorded separately. That's foley. Oops.
00:46:45
Speaker
So that's all the literal practical sound you see. And that's why you're sitting here and I'm not saying this. That's Foley. And sound design is actually the layer between those two things. So there can be music in a movie and it can be a song, just a song that's also on Spotify, a commercial song. It can also be a score that's
00:47:13
Speaker
specifically written for that movie, but it's still music on its own. And then there's sound design that's actually made to that specific scene to to evoke a certain type of emotion or seriousness or drama or comedic. There's also there's of course there's a there's not really a
00:47:35
Speaker
a line between music and sound design because there can also be sound design that works on into a song and it will be music. It's not really two things, but it can be really two things. It can be two things. A bit hard to explain. For example, of course, what I said earlier, aircons are
00:47:54
Speaker
certainly sound design thing, because there it's sound that's actually designed for specific function to support something to, to let you know that you're actually hitting a button or opening something or yeah, send an email. Yeah, things like it's very functionally related, more like a
00:48:15
Speaker
Yeah, feedback sound, basically. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But then, OK, so you mentioned music slightly. What would you then think is better? Because I'm sure you get this asked a lot. Create new sound or license music?
Original Music vs Licensing
00:48:35
Speaker
Well, both are, of course, I mean, both options. Both might be good options. And I think it depends on, well, first of all, budget. Yeah. Okay. Which one would cost more? Depends on which song you want to license. Okay. If you're going to license and depends on the goal you want, you have for that specific.
00:48:55
Speaker
So let's say standard advertisement. For example, if you have a commercial and you need music to put in there, you can choose to license music or you can create music. I think the choice should be what do you want a commercial to do actually. And if that is like a part of a larger campaign, you might want music that's reoccurring.
00:49:24
Speaker
in 10 advertisers in a row, there's the same music or the same kind of music. So you might actually choose to license a song that you can use for the duration of the whole campaign, or you can create music that's specifically made for your brand. And you can use that and you might use it even after those 10 episodes, because most licensing deals have an expiration date. You can use the song for this amount of commercials in this amount of time.
00:49:54
Speaker
And of course, when you make music for your commercial specifically or for your brand, most of the time you have the right to keep on using it for your brand or for your... Yeah, for eternity. Yeah, exactly. But I assume... I don't think there's a better option. Okay. I think...
00:50:14
Speaker
The decision is based on budget. So if you want your commercial to be very recognizable and you want a very recognizable song or maybe something that's currently very hyped or popular.
00:50:32
Speaker
I would assume most people, if they ask for a song in a commercial, that's normally what they would ask for. And I don't think that's always a good solution because it's going to cost you a shit lot of money. Like how much? Depends on the song. But I've heard of, for example, a dovepink song. I talked to someone recently and he said, yeah, I tried to license a dovepink song. And I said, what did that, what would that have costed you? And he said, yeah, something like 80,000 euros just for an online video.
00:51:02
Speaker
Holy shit. And it's not, we're not talking about a brand advertising here. We're talking about a medium sized company who wanted to do some online video, one advertisement, 80,000 euros for a duff blink.
00:51:20
Speaker
And that means then, so is that because it's an online video and that means it can be taken forever? It's mostly cheaper for licensing than when you do TV commercials as well. So yeah, there's not a fixed fee for licensing.
00:51:38
Speaker
It's what's negotiated, I guess. Yeah, just what's negotiable and depends on how famous the artist is, how popular the song is, but also how big the company is. And what medium it's going to be, I guess. Yeah, exactly. So if it's potentially going to reach 10 million people, licensing that song can be way much more expensive than if you're a small company and you want to license that same song. Yeah. So.
00:52:02
Speaker
But back to your question, I don't think that you can say it's better to license or it's better to create music. It's a matter of, okay, what's the goal? And if the goal is to...
00:52:17
Speaker
to do something like one time advertising the one time video for something that's really going on right now. And there's this song currently in the charts that's really popular fits that video. That might be a good choice to go with.
00:52:42
Speaker
I think a lot of times a more unknown song can also be a really good option because it's cheaper for starters. But you might be able to use it more often and to actually make that song kind of your brand sound. And that's what a lot of companies do. They license a song for a year.
00:53:07
Speaker
for the time of a campaign with several advertising for the ad.
00:53:13
Speaker
Yeah, advertisers, advertisements, advertisements. Yeah. And they use that song a couple of times. And well, for example, example, the Nikon. Yeah. I just told you about it. Yeah. That's an example in which a very pretty unknown song gets famous message exposure associated with that commercial and with Nikon. Yeah.
00:53:39
Speaker
But Nikon didn't have to pay so much because it wasn't so well known first. If you would try to license that song right now, it would most likely cost you more than $80,000, I guess. So you can also, of course, create a song which does the same. It might be cheaper, it might be more expensive.
00:53:57
Speaker
But that's definitely then the balance you need to strike because honestly, I had no idea that licensing can be this expensive. I think artists should get paid fairly. And anyway, I mean, anyways, I get paid fairly. I just didn't know that all these factors play a role. And of course, you are the one who.
00:54:15
Speaker
who is going to be asked to take care of the sound for a company. And I just, I mean, honestly, I hear very often just like, oh, yeah, that song is currently super hip. That's what we want to use because it's the right vibe. And then they hear the money they have to pay, not even to you, the sound designer or the one that creates the sound logo, but just
00:54:40
Speaker
to be able to use the sound in the first place. I think that that's already where companies go wrong. Like, OK, this song is very popular right now. Oh, shit, we need to use that because it's.
00:54:52
Speaker
Yes, basically just because it's so popular, we want to use it. But does it actually fit your brand image and your brand identity? That's the question you should ask. And I think it's mostly two factors coming together. Like, okay, this song is popular right now and it does actually fit our brand profile very well. So we might be able to use that together. Right.
00:55:13
Speaker
But if it doesn't, then just don't use it because you're going to throw away a lot of money with it. Yeah. Could be like having a famous person in your commercial. And if that personality of that famous person just doesn't match your brand, I mean, it doesn't matter if that famous person... That's something that's really going on. Is it the social influencer business? Oh, yeah, right.
00:55:34
Speaker
Yeah, you can compare it, I think. A lot of companies want to do something with influencers. Why? Because these people, they reach so many people and they are all potential clients or customers. Yeah, okay. But is that the way you want to?
00:55:50
Speaker
Well, advertise your brand actually to that person. Does he reflect your values and your identity? Right. Right. And it's just being being a bit more cautious about hype versus goal. Exactly. If they both align, of course, it's perfect. But if they don't, it's just like in a scene in a movie, if the scene is comedic, but the sound is serious.
Music's Impact on Environments
00:56:11
Speaker
I mean, you
00:56:13
Speaker
You spend money on it anyways, but you should get the biggest bang for your buck. You should get it right. I think otherwise it's just going to damage your communication or your brand image. That's interesting. Earlier you also mentioned that, and this was the third part about the sound branding that you talked about, which is the mood setting of a sound.
00:56:40
Speaker
And you gave a few examples about supermarkets. Are there specific tones? No, no, that was the wrong question. Can music set a specific tone?
00:56:56
Speaker
in a certain environment to boost the, well, let's say in a supermarket, I guess, the sales in a restaurant, I guess, the enjoyment of the food or of the experience. Is there something like that? There are certain types of music just work better for certain types of
00:57:18
Speaker
specific environments restaurant because I mean I think you can you can answer that yourself if you just well it I mean well hold on because if you could then everyone would get it right and I have to say the amount of it not being done at all
00:57:36
Speaker
or completely regarded as, oh, we just need some background music and it's turned on the radio. Yeah, but that's the problem because people don't actually think about it this way. Right. And that's, that's where mistakes are being made because I think... But it is possible. Yeah, sure. Okay.
00:57:53
Speaker
most people would think about it a little bit more. They would, well, they might get it at least more right. So if I would ask you what would be to your idea, be the kind of music, imagine this, you're sitting in a restaurant, in restaurant type, very
00:58:17
Speaker
elegant. I have my eyes closed. You're eating fish as you're a very good fish. I don't know what kind of fish because you don't eat fish that much. And the whole dinner is going to cost you 120 bucks. Just for myself? Yeah, just for yourself. Oh, okay. Oh, man. They better not play any rock music. People are talking not that loud because it's
00:58:43
Speaker
you know, pricey place, it's elegant, so you behave yourself. Okay, so I would imagine that kind of place. And there's a lot of silver around and a lot of maybe old wood, that kind of place. What kind of music would you hear in this situation? So I would envision, okay, I'm just talking for myself here, right? You have to tell me if I'm off. But now if I imagine myself in that situation,
00:59:09
Speaker
That type of a price category environment assumed social behavior in that environment. Also the word, the type of food, I would assume music in the background that is below the level, like volume wise, below the level of interrupting speaking.
00:59:38
Speaker
And I would think something like classical music would fit well. But I can't tell you now which... I can't just say classical music. It's also very vast what you can get with classical music. I don't think... I think something big, orchestral would not really work. No, no, no, no, no. Something small and something that's supportive to the situation. Exactly. A little bit soft, mellow. Yeah.
01:00:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly something to dynamically know exactly because it's supposed to so this is this is how I would see it if I were to go to such a place I'm there to have a very good time and have a very not only a very good time, but also not only a very good meal, but
01:00:22
Speaker
I don't have to get that experience over with just shoving down my meal and get out of there. It's not McDonald's. So what you're saying now, for example, you can get out of this that you probably need music that's not too high of a place? Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean. But it should also not be elevator music.
01:00:42
Speaker
No, so an elevator music is probably what you think, like a bit corny, cheap-ish. Definitely. Yeah. So it needs to be something with, that's elegant, it's a kind of high class vibe. Yeah. Like a dinner party type of... So classical music might fit. Some kind of mellow jazz music might be a good option. Maybe the classical music, of course, depending on the environment, might be a bit too over the top.
01:01:08
Speaker
That's what you want to communicate. If the whole restaurant is kind of over the top. Well then of course, yeah. The people who were, you know, like very... Pompous. Yeah, exactly. That might actually be a good fit. But if it's more like the way people talk to you, it's more casual, for example.
01:01:27
Speaker
then it might not be a good fit. I think that's the way people interact with each other is a great way of feeling or making sense of what kind of music would actually fit. So if you're in a restaurant and you're being served in a way, there's a distance between you and the guy who's serving you. And it's very,
01:01:58
Speaker
formal. Yeah. Yeah. Which also, of course, then if the interaction is formal, also should determine what type of music that is. Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean. Yeah. So, and if it's a place that's more loose and a bit, it might still be an expensive place because food is just damn good. Right. For what other reason, because the location is just a
01:02:18
Speaker
very high-end or whatever, but that might not fit with the classical high-class type of music. But this is what I mean. I mean, okay, now you have forced me to do this exercise.
01:02:32
Speaker
But I don't know many people that really think about this. And in a lot of restaurants, honest, okay, I have to also admit, you know me, I like good sound. I'm a little, I don't play any instruments, but if the sound is bad, I get annoyed very quickly. So whenever I'm in a restaurant and they play good music,
01:02:55
Speaker
I compliment the restaurant also on their music. And people find that very weird because they think you should have focused on the food. It's like, okay, the food is great. Obviously this is what your chef has made. And obviously you didn't hire a bad chef who would, but your music choice was excellent. And whenever I say that,
01:03:20
Speaker
I, 99% of the times I get the answer. Oh, we just played something on Spotify. That's strange, right? Because if someone, people are complaining, for example, about the way the restaurant looks or the fact that you're sitting in front of a door and it's kind of breezy or the fact that the sunlight is too much or the light is not good enough or everything visual or everything else is. Complainable. Yeah. Or the taste of the food. People just don't really.
01:03:50
Speaker
Thanks so much about the music. And I actually think if I would ask this question or do this exercise with a CEO of a restaurant company.
01:04:03
Speaker
You would understand actually what kind of music it might need. Yes. You might get it clear to that person. Yeah. It's just that people don't think about it too much. So maybe it would be is a big mood setter. And it is also what you say. That's a very good point. Volume. Yeah. Or quality of the music. Yeah.
01:04:21
Speaker
Yeah, okay. Yeah. I mean, you can't put the volume up if the quality of the sound is terrible. I just hate that. I hate that. I just really, okay, you can hear me now really getting angry about this. This is really, I mean, people please stop doing this. Loud doesn't mean better. Well, to music, that's poor quality, as long as the music is good. No, I can't do this. It's an especially in restaurant. I noticed this sometimes in restaurants where
01:04:49
Speaker
where they just have them. The music is right, but the volume is too loud. There are actually a lot of restaurants, but also fashion stores. Yes. Yes. It's not a club, people. They just make me run away. Honestly, I go shopping with my girlfriend, for example, and I'm a very functional shopper. I go out there to get a t-shirt. First best t-shirt I see, I want to go. And actually, when I'm there, I'm like,
01:05:15
Speaker
Oh, is this one nice? This one or not? Yeah, yeah. So if that kind of stores, those kind of stores, I don't get the chance to do that because music is just too loud. Yeah, no, I agree with you. And I mean, if you think about it of your senses, if something visually is unpleasing, you can just close your eyes. You can. Yeah, you can close your ears. To close your ears, you need both hands.
01:05:40
Speaker
Or you won't close your ears. Or you can, of course. Yeah, you can cover them, but it's still not. Yeah. Ah, man. No, really. I really dislike this. But then maybe it would be an idea. So Spotify, if you're listening or whoever else is listening,
01:05:58
Speaker
Maybe it would be an idea to not only set up playlists based on genre or let's say, I don't know, I'm working now or focus or something, but actually for certain types of stores.
01:06:16
Speaker
So whoever's listening, if you think about this... The reason they don't do that is simply because you're not allowed to use Spotify in commercial...
Spotify and Licensing Restrictions
01:06:22
Speaker
Oh, I didn't know that either. Your Spotify license is private. You can only use it for... Well, for personal use. Maybe I should have told that then when the restaurant's... Actually, in the license of Spotify. Because they, of course, license music to put in their library. Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. And they just can't really put in...
01:06:45
Speaker
The contract. Yeah, it's also allowed for commercial use. But there are actually music suppliers. Yeah. Let's call them music suppliers. For example, companies like Spotify, who have libraries in the same way as Spotify does it, that are allowed to use in commercial environments.
01:07:06
Speaker
I think that's a Dutch company. That's kind of Spotify for commercial use. There's not that many music in it as in Spotify, but still millions of songs. And there you have these kind of playlists based on
01:07:24
Speaker
Okay. Your restaurant, your, this kind of place, the high class, the warm, or maybe more. Okay. So whoever, whoever is using Spotify in a commercial setting, don't get caught or don't do it in the first place. Cause you're not allowed to, don't really get caught. Yeah. The only, the only, the only people they get or the only organization they get problems with is in the Netherlands, Bima Stemware, for example. Okay. Cause you need to.
01:07:51
Speaker
pay for the fact that you're playing music in your store. Oh, yeah. Based on how big is the place. Yeah. Also, how big is the front of the place because people in the streets might also hear the music. That's kind of stupid. OK. But if you're very front of your store is 10 meters wide, you pay more than when the front of your store is two meters wide, although the. But then the speaker placement should matter, too. Yeah, but they don't take that in account. Of course not. So when you pay, you pay a yearly
01:08:21
Speaker
Well, what is it? Licensing fee, actually, or? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Or playing music and... I mean, the radio stations do that too, right? Yeah, exactly. They also pay money to be with somewhere for, for the music and be with someone who will share, divides that money to do all the share. Okay. So people, people that are listening, keep that in mind. Okay. Just, uh,
01:08:43
Speaker
Don't use Spotify in your store. Yes, you are officially not allowed to do so. You can probably do it without problems. Yeah. But it's not allowed. But it's officially not allowed. But then, OK, if we then now go away from restaurants, I know a lot of settings where no music is ever played.
Music in Healing and Stressful Spaces
01:09:02
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:03
Speaker
But where I think, and this might be just my gut feeling, where I think it could actually benefit the people that are in those environments, for example, in a hospital setting. Yeah, exactly. And there's actually, the last couple of years, there's
01:09:20
Speaker
been quite some research to that exact point. Oh, OK. Really? The way to the effect music has on people in healing environments. Oh, OK. And that's really interesting. Oh, tell me more. It's not really. I don't think you should read it because you're a scientist. Well, still. I didn't know about that. From what I've read, they're actually doing research to what kind of benefits can people
01:09:46
Speaker
get from music in hospitals or in whatever healing situations. I don't know what kind of tests they did to it. I know they've done some tests with music in CT scans, for example. Okay. Oh, to calm people down, basically. Yeah, to make them feel more at ease, but also for if it accelerates the healing process of people who are on intensive care, for example. Right. Does it?
01:10:16
Speaker
I don't think they really were able to conclude that like officially because they're also
01:10:25
Speaker
Right. I mean, there are also other factors involved in this. And to, I think to, but I should ask you that, I think to, to conclude that you should have quite a lot of tests and it's not the most cheap. Oh, definitely. It's not cheap at all. Tests to do. Cause you need an actual hospital to put up the test and do it for a long period of time because people are not healing in a day. Of course not. Of course not.
01:10:53
Speaker
But this is okay. That's interesting that they're now trying to figure this out because this is— But I think that there are a lot of tends there. And I think there were some research who actually concluded that it has a positive benefit.
01:11:08
Speaker
don't know exactly the numbers or the exact conclusions. So there are actually hospitals who are experimenting with that, with music on intensive care, with music in CT scans, with music in just simply the waiting rooms. Because if you're waiting in a hospital, it's not a nice place. No, it's not a nice place. It's not a place you want to be.
01:11:30
Speaker
It's very functional and you know exactly what's happening there. And you're not there. Most of the time you're there, you're not happy, except for when you're getting a child, maybe. That's true. And even then you're in pain. Hospitals are trying to make a few people more at ease.
01:11:48
Speaker
or accelerate the healing process with it. And I think, yeah, it's at least a nice way to put music to work. So I think the only study that I'm aware of is where they tried to use music before an operation. So they had people exposed, I think, five to 10 minutes before they received the anesthesia.
01:12:11
Speaker
before the operation and they could, and they measured the heart rate. And that when they were in that, so the participants that were in that waiting room, so in the room where they were receiving the anesthesia.
01:12:28
Speaker
waiting for the doctors to arrive, had a lower heart rate compared to the ones that didn't receive the music, which made the anesthesia also work better. And when the people then came back out of the anesthesia that wore off, I think they had a much less strong... So at least the ones that were exposed to music had a much
01:13:01
Speaker
easier time during the anesthesia aware of than the other ones. I mean, all measured with heart rate and I think, but I'm not 100% sure again, which study that was. But still awesome that music can do that, right? Yeah. It's amazing that music can do that. And it's so easy to use it, to use music in those kinds of situations. Yeah. And because it's so, so subliminal actually, people wouldn't even know what's happening. Yeah. But I think.
01:13:27
Speaker
There are a lot of these little things that can be helpful in these kinds of situations. For example, it's like a little kid taking their favorite teddy bear or something with them when they need to go to the hospital for surgery. And that's the same effect. Music can make you feel more comfortable, can make you feel more at ease or whatever.
01:13:46
Speaker
and it's so deeply ingrained into us. Music is so primal that, yeah, it can induce- For some people at least, not for everyone, but I think- That's true. Or at least for some people, music is very primal in a way that you need it. Yeah. And for some people, it's not- No, I mean the response. So primal in a way that you need, yeah. I mean the responses are so, so...
01:14:10
Speaker
I don't really like to use this word, but just for the sake of argument now, hardwired. Yeah, I think this is something where people need to pay more attention to because these details make a huge difference.
01:14:26
Speaker
We actually, it's not just hospitals, for example, so we did a project for an airport on the parking garage. And the parking garage is also not a place you want to be super functional. And it's very stressful, you want to get the plane. You want to get to your plane in time, exactly. You might already be running lake, you don't know where to go, exactly. It's not a very comfy place. And so we tried to put music.
01:14:51
Speaker
work in the parking garage to make people feel more at ease. And I think these are the chances or these are the opportunities for music to make a, well, not always a big difference, but at least to add something to it and to make it a little bit more nice. I think even a small, just to go through some numbers, even if it's just
01:15:14
Speaker
a one percent difference. Let's say one percent that can add up in a positive way to the experience these people perceive at that airport. Yeah, just let's say one percent. How many people go through that airport every day? We're talking about a huge volume. One percent is huge.
01:15:38
Speaker
This is this. This should not be just disregarded. I mean, even point one percent would make a massive difference. But still, the reason for companies to not to to just. Not act on it is mainly just money and prioritizing, right? I also get that I understand, especially for a parker. It's very functional. So the functional part comes in first. Yeah. And I get that. But I think it can be complimented. Just let opportunities down.
01:16:06
Speaker
Because of everyday rush in more prioritizing. Or maybe they just don't know. Or maybe they just really don't know. Or they should just prioritize music a little bit more so they can actually get the benefits of it. Yeah. Yeah. So people, I mean, even.
01:16:22
Speaker
You own an airport, you own a parking garage. Music can make a difference. So keep that in mind. It doesn't just hold if you are a musician or have a radio show. Music has a huge impact. But coming to that then, because I think this is a nice segue, from the experience you had so far with your clients, what are you commonly seeing regarding mistakes
Musical Taste vs Brand Identity
01:16:52
Speaker
that companies make when it comes to sound branding and sound design. And I think you already said quite a lot. But one big mistake that I didn't mention it. Oh, tell me. And that's musical taste. Oh, OK. You need to explain that. Well.
01:17:09
Speaker
You can use me as an example because I think I might have been a bit of a pain there. Oh, actually not at all. No, not at all. But I think a lot of companies and a lot of people in places that actually choose music, so marketing managers or whatever kind of.
01:17:24
Speaker
decisional position you have, make choices based on their personal taste, instead of based on... Of the company outlook or personality. And that's also a problem with visuals, but in some way it's more easy for people to comprehend the visual part compared to the audio. I guess music is just so personal, just feels so close. You know, music is pure gut and emotion.
01:17:54
Speaker
Well, visual, you can actually, I think you can rationalize it a bit more. Yeah, maybe.
01:18:01
Speaker
Well, and I would maybe also say with visuals you can, I mean, if you make a quick change, let's say in a visual graphic, I can immediately see that. I don't play any instruments. So if you say, oh no, we gotta change the pitch here and the tempo needs to go like this, I have no idea what you're talking about. But then you need to, when you make it, then I will be able to understand. But that is then, I mean, it's- Yeah, but it's with graphics the same. You don't change your logo just in,
01:18:30
Speaker
in an instance or in a show. Oh, that's true. Yeah, that's quite a process. Yeah. Okay. That's right. Yeah. Okay. So I think that's the biggest mistake. Personal taste that stands in the way of making decision, a decision that fits the brand, the company company. Okay. Let me now, so we're coming to a close and I don't want to take too much more of this time. So I have, I have just, uh, let me just count three more questions.
01:18:58
Speaker
So the first one of these is are there principles you use in sound design or sound branding that are based on your experience or industry standards that have never really been tested thoroughly?
Need for Music Research
01:19:12
Speaker
I don't think I really get your question. I mean, I mean, as in an effect. So, for example, let's say, oh, a faster tempo makes people more nervous. Yeah. Things like this. Have those because I'm really not aware of any of those things. Yeah. There's there's very little research to what music actually does. There is little. Yeah. Oh, that's not bad. And it's not. I don't think the research there is is actually super great. Oh, wow.
01:19:40
Speaker
But then this brings me directly to the next one. What would you like science then to focus on? What types of questions, or pick one or two, you don't have to come up with 20. What do you think, what would you like them to actually test? Okay, one step back. Okay. Okay, I've read some research that there actually is, and it's already 30, 40 years old, I think. Oh, that is about the
01:20:10
Speaker
the simple things of music. So what does a change in tempo? What effect does it have on your heartbeat and on breeding of people, for example? And what effect does changing of melody has? But it's every one of those
01:20:33
Speaker
conclusions is simply one change in the same music. Right. I mean, it's highly, highly controlled. Yeah. Super controlled. And music is not controlled at all. Like there are so many elements working together to create that specific track or that specific sound or that specific actually that specific feeling. And that feeling might also be.
01:20:53
Speaker
very different for a lot of people. And that's actually why I think it's super hard to do good research to the effect music has, because music is so changing different and actually a kind of a collection of thousands of little elements. Yeah. And it's very hard to isolate which element has which effect
01:21:21
Speaker
Especially then in the combination. Yeah, exactly. And it's not just the practical parameters of music that might have an effect. It's also the associations or the current culture that's associated with it that might make the effect different than
01:21:44
Speaker
just the structure of the music is. So if specific music is very much associated or a specific band, for example, is very associated with a culture or with a lifestyle or something. Although the practical parameters of the music might be the same as a random other song, it might still have a completely different impact on the audience.
01:22:10
Speaker
Right. Okay. So that's what makes it very hard to do usable research, at least. I see. So then maybe I would say that the scientists, or at least the researchers that are focusing on this, maybe they should try a variety of combinations of these types of elements that you just mentioned.
01:22:36
Speaker
But I would say the second point that you made, having that with a strong association, like you gave an example of a band, just from a scientific perspective, just to leave that out for now, just to see the bare bones. Let me just call it the primal ingrained response. Maybe it would be good to...
01:23:00
Speaker
I mean, I can't blame any scientists. I'm one too. And you need to dissect all these elements to really be sure what is the individual influence. But obviously, you should not stop there because these things are not unrelated, especially in music. And what I mean to say is that they should maybe try
01:23:22
Speaker
to figure out a combinatory matrix, where you have, let's just say, 10 elements. And then 10 elements on one axis, the same 10 elements on the other axis, and what different types of combinations of changes of these elements would evoke. Because that could potentially be more useful. It's basically like a lookup chart than for the composer. Yeah, but I think
01:23:51
Speaker
I think that might be a very good idea. And the only problem that's in there is that the amount of possible combinations. Right. I mean, of course, that's huge. Because it's not just tonality, tempo, melody, rhythm, but it's also which instruments are there, which kind of... I mean, in Western music, we just use the regular 12 tone tonality.
01:24:16
Speaker
system, but there's also Arabic music, which is, uh, what is it? I don't know. I don't know. I know Arabic music, but so many variables that I think it's pretty much impossible to create this kind of a combination chart, which is actually usable for composing. I mean, you don't, you don't have to go down.
01:24:40
Speaker
all the way down the rabbit hole. But even having a rough visualization of which direction you would go on an emotional chart.
01:24:50
Speaker
That would be quite clear. Any kind of research would be very welcome. Cause it's basically every part of research there can be about the effect of music is might be a support to might be able to back up whatever music you make or whatever we do. So for us, it is very usable. Of course, every, every research, if it's well done, if it's well done, of course, of course is useful.
01:25:17
Speaker
But I think that that might be the thing. It's not what kind of research is just, ah, there might be some research. Yeah. Well, but I mean, it's you mentioned some research that goes back so long and I'm sure there must have been new research done. But if it's not even reaching the people working in this field, then something's going wrong. Yeah. So that's and that's why I mean, that's basically the idea of this podcast in the first place.
Bridging Music Research and Industry
01:25:42
Speaker
So I mean, just what you mentioned now, I'm definitely going to be excited about having a
01:25:47
Speaker
a music researcher, music cognition researcher, who I can then ask basically about this. And also give him my example, and I'm sure he will say that's not a good idea. But hey, he can most likely, she can then most likely give us a better one and much, much more insights into the latest things happening there.
01:26:09
Speaker
And also, for example, the mind trace software you're creating to get back to your business. I think that's also a very valuable way of testing the effect music can have. And you might not be able to do a hundred percent.
01:26:29
Speaker
clarified kind of research, but at least it gives a practical image of the certain composition. I mean, it's all about the indication. You just want a little bit more certainty and not just walk in the dark all day long.
01:26:41
Speaker
Um, all right. And my, my, we might, we, we still have to, we still have to do that. Your, your brand score. Right. We have to do that as well. Yeah. Because we haven't, we, we wanted to do that as a project. We just, it just never, we just never did. No, that's also because our, the project we wanted to test it on kind of.
01:26:59
Speaker
died out, but I think we should still test it as a matter of curiosity and then share the results, of course, with everyone else. Yes, please. Now, we should definitely do that. As a final part, are there any books or other resources that you can recommend for our listeners that want to learn more or want to get started on this?
01:27:23
Speaker
Well, I think not specifically on the topic of sound branding so much, but more commonly on the topic of music. If you want to get into sound branding and how you can use music for marketing, communication, branding, whatever, I think the best starting point is to understand music a bit better. Ah, right. I see. That makes sense. So it's like you don't want to
01:27:49
Speaker
start with, okay, how I'm going to implement music in my brand. You actually want to start with, okay, what the hell? How does music actually work? And the next step was what can you do with it?
Recommended Reading
01:28:00
Speaker
And there are a couple of good books. Um, I really like this, uh, uh, what's the name, uh, the singer of the talking hat, Dave David Byron. I have no idea. You wrote a book.
01:28:17
Speaker
But if you don't know it now, that's all right. I'm going to figure it out. We'll look it up after the show, and then I will put it in the show notes anyways. I'm just quickly going to look it up. All right. And the book is basically just about music in common. Not about exactly how it works, not about exactly how it... How to do it. ...specifically about how it evolved, but a bit of everything. Okay. And I think it's just... I mean, that sounds like the perfect book. That sounds like the perfect book to get started.
01:28:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's how music works. How music works. That's literally what I said, like try to understand how music works, the book's called How Music Works. That's perfect. And it's really enjoyable to read because he actually writes it very much from his own perspective. Yeah.
01:29:05
Speaker
Like when he was younger, he went to the clubs in wherever he lived and how that looked like and how music evolved in that specific place. And then he refers to how music evolved worldwide, for example. So it's just also fun to read, but it gives you a really good sense of what music can do and the
01:29:24
Speaker
the cultural value of music, also a bit of how music is actually constructed and how it works, how it practically works, about harmonics, for example, but also about, well, sound in common.
01:29:41
Speaker
what the hell is sound actually and how does sound work. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can see that. It covers a bit of everything. So I think that will be a great place to start. Okay. All right. Now I'm definitely going to put that in the show notes and most likely going to read this myself. I'm curious what he has to say about volumes and restaurants. I think there might actually, there is actually
01:30:03
Speaker
The part literally about volume in restaurants in the book, I think. All right. Nice. Okay. Okay. Now I'm definitely going to have to look this up and I hope he agrees with me. Otherwise I have to double check on him. Well, Erwin, I want to thank you so much for this great conversation and the time you took. Yeah, you too. You're welcome. So if people want to find out more about you, your work, or if they want to work with you, where can they find you online?
01:30:30
Speaker
Well, the company is called Boomermuss, which might be hard for people who speak English. Oh, I'm going to put the link to it in the show notes as well. And well, last year we started collaborating with Azure. So that's actually just one company right now and Boomermuss is part of Azure. And Azure is actually a marketing communications company.
01:30:54
Speaker
I mean, it makes sense that you combine those two things. So we're trying to put both together. That's great. That's the goal at the end of the day. And if they want to find you personally, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, what's best? Whatever you feel.
01:31:12
Speaker
You feel fine with, I guess. All of those is fine. Okay. Now I'm going to put your handles and also in the show notes as well, so people can also find you. Thanks again. And to everyone listening, you have a great day. Thank you very much.
01:31:30
Speaker
Hey everyone, just one more thing before you go. I hope you enjoyed the show and to stay up to date with future episodes and extra content, you can sign up to the blog and you'll get an email every Friday that provides some fun before you head off for the weekend. Don't worry, it'll be a short email where I share cool things that I have found or what I've been up to. If you want to receive that, just go to ajmal.com. A-D-J-M-A-L dot com. And you can sign up right there. I hope you enjoy.