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#14 - Hannah Scheiffele - Hacking HR: Conquering New Work Challenges
80 Plays4 months ago
Ever wondered how modern work frameworks can transform team dynamics and alignment?
In this enlightening conversation, I chat with Hannah Scheiffele, an expert in organizational development and HR strategy, about the challenges and triumphs of implementing “New Work” concepts such as flexible work environments, both remotely and on-site. We delve into the effective use of frameworks like OKRs to align team efforts, discussing the need for personalization and strategic adaptation to ensure everyone moves in harmony towards common goals.
Curious about making your team more cohesive, no matter where they work from? Check out the episode on your favorite platform.
Enjoy!
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everyone, this is Ajmal Zavari and welcome back to the podcast. Today we're diving into something that every company is talking about, how to thrive in the age of new work. My guest, Hannah Scheifelle is an organizational development powerhouse and she's here to share the secrets behind building resilient teams, boosting collaboration and growing companies in today's fast paced hybrid world. Whether you're leading a team or just navigating these changes yourself, there is something in here for you. Enjoy.
Ajmal's Background and Podcast Theme
00:00:42
Speaker
Hey everyone, and welcome to another podcast episode. If you're new here, my name's Ajmal. I'm a neuroscientist and entrepreneur. On this podcast, we explore the links between science, technology, business, and the impact they have on all of us.
00:00:58
Speaker
Today we talk to Hannah Scheifele. Hannah is currently the Manager of Organizational Development at Loikage, where she plays a key role in advising the board on strategic growth and organizational improvements.
Introducing Hannah Scheifele and OKRs
00:01:09
Speaker
Her expertise spans goal-setting, KPI implementation and organizational development, supported by her rich background as a management consultant.
00:01:18
Speaker
With a proven track record and optimizing processes and fostering company culture, she brings invaluable insights into sustainable business practices. The list goes on and on. All right, enough background. Let's get into it, shall we?
00:01:33
Speaker
All right. Well, welcome to another podcast episode. This time I have the honor to talk to Hannah. Hi. um Well, we met quite some time ago when you came into the company I worked for back then to introduce the OKR approach to us. Well, just for the listeners to understand, can you quickly explain what it is about and what the goal of it is?
00:01:56
Speaker
Yeah, sure. OKRs is a goal setting method. um It is ah predominantly used in the tech world and the startup world. And um first of all, it helps with how you define goals, how you format them, um how you formulate them.
00:02:12
Speaker
ah makes it easier to ensure that you have clear numbers in your goals. And it also is a very flexible goal setting method because you don't necessarily do it just for one team or I'll i'll reverse it. Otherwise, ah explain it differently. ah You might have goals for the company um and the company might have multiple objectives. OK, ours is objectives and key results and various teams will work on that.
00:02:42
Speaker
objective or the the the key results below it. And it helps to set goals that are cross-functional, but are still clear yeah with a clear number-based, data-based um
00:03:01
Speaker
formatting formulation. now Yeah. No, thanks for that. And we will get a little more in depth into it later. But um the reason I wanted to mention this first was that's that's how we
HR's Dual Role: Business vs. Employee Support
00:03:16
Speaker
met, right? you were I mean, at least that's how we met. yeah You gave that presentation about OKRs and um well, what I really enjoyed about your perspective is Well, that you're very open to discussion about this approach and other approaches in general. and So in startup world, you often heard, you know, KPI driven metrics and all of this stuff. And then when you came in and talked about OKRs, I thought, oh, no, no, not again. Not again. Three letter abbreviation that's going to ruin my time. um Well, but that was actually not the case at all.
00:03:52
Speaker
And well, that's why we also talked a lot afterwards about various things that our age are HR related and why I think your perspective is very valuable to others. Thank you. Okay, but to let me start with a short preamble when it comes to HR that I came across when talking to people. Now, there are mostly two opinions about HR departments in companies.
00:04:16
Speaker
One, HR is there to make sure the people serve the business interest, so the business first. Two, HR is there to help and support the n npr employees, employees first. yes Now, I think it's important to understand that the HR department's perspective is important here as well, as normally nobody asks them. no And well, from from your perspective,
00:04:43
Speaker
What is the HR department for? And and what I mean, what are they supposed to accomplish? and And you can go as wide or as narrow as you want. yeah We can go in tensions, whatever you want, because I honestly don't know the answer myself. yeah I'm genuinely curious. yeah Well, I really think that ah the answer isn't straightforward. And I'm sure, um first of all, it completely depends on the type of company and also what function if you're talking HR as a whole, but also the different functions within HR will have a different focus.
00:05:23
Speaker
And then I'm sure you will, if you ask a hundred different people in HR, you'll get very different answers. And also if you ask, like you said earlier, yeah if you ask a hundred different CEOs, you will get very different answers. I think, um your question actually holds one of the most difficult aspects of being working in HR, of having a job in HR, because ah I would say the way I do HR, it depends on the day.
00:05:58
Speaker
Depends on the hour, you know, almost where you have to flip back and forth between precisely that sometimes what your focus is or should be or has to be is doing something for the business and ensuring that the business has what it needs to reach its goals. And on other days, you're absolutely in the position of going, I need to support these employees. I need to ensure that they have everything they need. I mean, and we're talking everything from soft needs in terms of i like soft needs as in soft skills, you know, everything from the desk to, but really also looking at employment law and do they have everything is the bit. Now this, again, this is a good example. This goes in both directions. Employment law, of course you need to check is, does the employee have everything they have the right to, but also you need to make sure is the business doing everything it's supposed to be doing or are they liable?
00:06:53
Speaker
So um you know, that can be very difficult and you might find yourself in situations where you know that in that moment you have to have the focus of the business in your mind, but you're not very happy about it. You know, you might have to do something, let people go or change something about their jobs. Um, and you know, it's the better thing for the business and you know, the employee is not going to be very happy about it. And then sometimes you have to make a decision. And sometimes my opinion absolutely also is that if you are
00:07:30
Speaker
in HR, it's a requirement for you to also sometimes question C-level, for instance, and say, well, of course, in in terms of employment law, you absolutely have to inform C-level what's right or wrong. But even if you're talking about something that's more um subjective to really second guess, that's not the right word at all, to question.
00:07:58
Speaker
Is this really the only way or can we find another way where all sides are happy?
Strategic vs. Administrative HR
00:08:03
Speaker
um But then it's also the right sometimes as you said when it comes to the law ah questioning or challenging the CEO oh absolutely it also also serves the business then right? It's because you don't want to be liable. Yeah, that's and that that's again two sides of that one coin is yeah ah Of course, you want to make sure that the um the employee has everything that they need, but you absolutely, it's also your responsibility. And I have to add straight up employment law is not at all my area, um not my strength. But um it's a very good example of where you you you always have the the two the two parties, so to speak, in your in your focus.
00:08:47
Speaker
Um, so I think it's a bit of a complex question. I think HR is absolutely there for both. If somebody says they're only there in the interest of the company, that's absolutely fine for them. It's not how I do HR. And the way I see, I mean, again, in in HR, you have a wide spectrum of roles. Um,
00:09:15
Speaker
I'm definitely placed more in the strategic part of HR rather than rather than the admin based, um, part, but, um, I actually absolutely see HR as a strategic partner to the business and a support system for the employees.
00:09:33
Speaker
Now then let me ask you from a strategic perspective, what is then your strategic perspective on HR as in what you just described? I mean, that's a tough spot to be in. yeah For anyone, you basically have to serve, well, what they normally say, and two bosses for two bosses basically or different stakeholders. yeah ah Both are your colleagues, ah conflicting interests, but you have to make both happy, kind of.
HR's Influence on Company Culture
00:10:04
Speaker
um
00:10:06
Speaker
And if you're just a single person in a company and you have to fulfill all these these obligations, do you think then maybe this leads to to people being annoyed by HR? Because they if they see one person doing one day one thing, the next day the other thing, the third day maybe the first thing again, they feel like Who do I have in front of me? Like yeah well what's what what what's going on? yeah And do you then maybe think HR departments should be, should, wow, can I say like small teams that, okay, you focus more on doing that. You focus more on doing this to have a consistent interaction or does it maybe not even possible?
00:10:52
Speaker
I mean, sometimes it's not possible, especially when you're talking startups, um, HR is traditionally not necessarily one of the teams that they're going to stock up on first. Right. That's ah mean where, where I'm working. Now we have one person in HR for 190, 180 employees um across multiple companies. Cause it's a group. Um, and, uh, so, you know,
00:11:13
Speaker
the It sounds taxing. it It is taxing and there you really have the situation where you can't be a strategic partner if you have that it's only admin that you can really do then. um I think that that in itself the issue one day or this one day or that isn't isn't necessarily the issue. The issue is how you could, how you communicated. And, uh, I mean, I think back to a position where I was in HR building up the HR, um, um, not the HR team. I was by myself, actually it's exactly that startup situation, but all the processes in HR from start to finish, I was, um,
00:11:56
Speaker
setting up by myself. I was in that position by myself for two years. That's also a tough spot. That is definitely a tough spot. It was a very interesting, but sure. you you And I regularly had to like flip back but ah back and forth and you might want to ask the employees how they thought about how I did that. But I think if you can manage to communicate quite clearly in certain moments,
00:12:19
Speaker
This is the position I'm coming from at the moment. This is all the factors we have to consider. And I'm really sorry um if you feel let down at the moment. I mean, you know, to a certain extent, you can also show that understanding. You don't have to be you don't have to be a hard ass to be an HR. You can also communicate Quite clearly, I fully understand and empath empathize with that you're feeling upset at this moment, but this is unfortunately having considered all the data, all the factors. This is unfortunately the decision that we're making. um I think you can mitigate that a little bit, that you're one day this, one day that. um And same thing for the business, I think. um
00:13:00
Speaker
It's not easy. I'll start differently. I think it's certainly, it's very important to show your stakeholders. I understand where you're coming from. I hear you and I have your back. I am here to make sure that we as a business have everything we need from an HR perspective to reach our goals. And that is particularly obviously to do with the people, how they work,
00:13:28
Speaker
Um, and I hear you, I hear what you need, but please also hear me and my recommendations of how we get there. Um, and I may in some cases have to ensure that the employees are being represented as well, especially like we said, if you only have one person in the team. Right.
00:13:48
Speaker
That's not always going to work. That's not always going to be enough and you're going to be in tough situations anyway, but that would be my thought on how you can try to manage that the two coin situation.
00:14:01
Speaker
Now that's then from the perspective of someone being in HR, how would you recommend someone like C-level, for example, what what is the more realistic expectation for them to have from HR? I mean, sure, yes, you're you're right. I think it's very important to not see them as your your instrument to execute what you just want yeah on a daily basis.
00:14:28
Speaker
um but how How do you think they need to, I mean, the reason I'm asking is I have seen that over and over again, yeah where the HR department was just like, yeah, we're going to do this, tell HR so they can do it. That's just, it's it's almost like,
00:14:46
Speaker
handing over a task, yeah and and not not asking them for anything, it's just do it. yeah um And then when they can't really do it, then you have lots of conflict. yeah How do you think C-level should should rethink this? So first of all, I think it depends a little on company culture. You're going to have very, very different people. um At C-level you have to different um views generally on how to lead.
00:15:16
Speaker
Um, which for me includes how you see HR, obviously. Um, and you might have that hard-ass culture in which you're going to use HR to execute whatever you think is right. Uh, in an ideal world, I ah would absolutely recommend to see HR as specifically what I said earlier, a strategic strategic partner, let them give you the information that you need, let them give you a different perspective. And there might be, there's always multiple ways to reach a goal. And I think you're going to gain a lot if you listen to the people in in that have the expertise. Now, obviously I would add to that, make sure you hire the right people into HR. That goes without saying, if you don't feel you have someone there,
00:16:13
Speaker
that has the knowledge, if you're not matching whatsoever, I think there's a healthy constructive discussion is actually very necessary in HR. Now you don't you know you don't need or it's maybe not even um constructive to always have the same views on something, but certainly if you feel it's consistently clashing,
00:16:38
Speaker
And you're not really getting that strategic information. Um, from HR, then consider if that you have the right person in place. That's why I said like in an ideal world. Um, I think it would be really, you can get so much out of a really great partnership with ah HR and the C level.
00:17:01
Speaker
I think you can make huge differences if you set up your culture, your work environment. Right.
Leadership Challenges and Clear Communication
00:17:08
Speaker
And I mean, it's ah so it's complex. But in some ways, for me, it's always been the most simple equation. And I simply don't understand why so many people don't get it.
00:17:19
Speaker
Make your people like give your people what they need to work well, manage them well, be kind to them. Sure. Also give them a very clear direction and then let them work and they'll work for you more than, you know, more you can imagine. And if you're going to come with a whip, be an asshole about it and just, you know, expect things that are unrealistic or expect them, especially in this day and age, expect them to just be happy to even be there and get to work. You're not going to get, and then don't be surprised that people are unmotivated or uninterested in their work.
00:17:52
Speaker
um which then I guess also reinforces again your thinking. Yeah, and it's an endless circle. So it for me, it's just a very ah um simple equation. And I don't mean, um you know just it's not the happy go lucky, everything is perfect, feel good, whatever, um that's part of maybe your strategy. I think what's just as important is clear leadership, which actually includes you know things like good goal setting. Yeah.
00:18:22
Speaker
if your people understand where we're going where they're going what's necessary what's what's expected from them if you can be clear and sure you can be firm about it too, but you don't have to be an asshole about it. that's what and Clear communication, clear direction will already you know solve a certain number of problems. and and On top of that, if you can really create a comfortable, nice environment that people enjoy coming to, you're going to get an incredible amount of of out of your people.
00:18:53
Speaker
Yeah. And to me, it sounds like you're speaking from experience. Yes. Being in different companies with different cultures yeah that this is not, I mean, it doesn't sound like something from a textbook. This is actually how things go. Yeah. And I mean, I have to add, you know, I always sort of say it's the most simple equation. Why isn't it why you know why are so many people not getting this? I have to also add I was raised by a management consultant.
00:19:17
Speaker
My dad is like, uh, was a leadership, um, uh, leadership trainer team, you know, doing team building and a leadership training. And so, um, that was just sort of what I heard, you know, when I grew up, all the information that I got was like, just, you know, be be a good example, be a good leader, treat your people well.
00:19:37
Speaker
And it's not going to work out. And I actually remember i remember I've had a fair amount of I don't know. I wouldn't say issues, and but confrontations. I think I just questioned my bosses yeah from an early age. And let's say not all of them really enjoyed being asked by 17 year old why XYZ wasn't in place. um What I mean with that is I really grew up with that.
00:20:03
Speaker
um with that background too. I'm sure I've definitely worked in different places. I have to say I've been very, very lucky with the places I've worked. I'm going to ignore all the little ah teenage jobs that I mentioned but since after university. um By and large, you know I've worked um with um really interesting people in great environments and sure,
00:20:29
Speaker
um in all those environments, there was ah improvement, sometimes more, sometimes less necessary possible. But by and large, I've been very lucky. um And it's not easy. I have to add that it is not easy. I think what I've seen, especially in the past is ah what's one of the hardest things is what do you do if you're really at a push? You're the CEO, you're you know in management.
00:20:57
Speaker
It's not really working out the way you need it to work out. The numbers are not there. How do you get your team to move forward faster, harder, better? Yeah.
00:21:08
Speaker
How do you, when do you have a harsher tone potentially? When are you more firm? When do you put in positivity or, you know, what it's it's not an easy equation. I really understand that that's not something easy, but I think really people ignore that too much um in the sense, you know, earlier, it it's such an easy equation. The whole topic isn't easy, but ah I oftentimes see that managers aren't really even trying or it appears like that.
00:21:38
Speaker
It feels easier to a lot of people to just slam your fist on the table and go, God damn it, we're doing this now. Yeah, that is easier. That's what maybe sometimes comes natural to us because we feel like we need force to push an object forward.
00:21:52
Speaker
Yeah. But it's also what we've been told. I must say. Yeah, absolutely. That's kind of what, yeah. And I think that's changing quite a lot. If we look at, you know, how a leadership, what leadership looked like 30 years ago in comparison to the last 10, that's already changing a lot. But, um, I think it's very different when you see that leadership is trying and then sometimes they have missteps and they miscalculated how, you know, or they get very stressed themselves. That happens.
00:22:21
Speaker
But very often, you I don't feel like it looks, it doesn't look like some are trying and they just go the ah hardass road ah down the hard ass road. And that's the part I don't understand. Yeah, and I must admit, you know, sometimes, so I've seen both directions. I've seen this one direction where um they're not being firm at all. Yeah, and right. Yes, that's not that's not good either. Hey, yeah we're like all buddies here.
00:22:49
Speaker
And maybe you are, but the work isn't moving in any meaningful direction. yeah And but what what you're going to do, or maybe not the quality of work delivered was not um not good. yeah What are you going to do?
00:23:07
Speaker
And I've just seen many people just be like, yeah, no, I'm just not going to say anything. Let's see how it's going to develop. Whereas exactly you you just described the the opposite direction of the um ah pendulum. And I've seen so many people just... Picking one or the other rather than understanding, as you said, there is a time and a moment where either is justified. yeah i mean As you said, you don't have to be an ass about it, yeah but you also don't have to um coddle no your your your people
Evolving HR Challenges in New Work Environments
00:23:48
Speaker
to death. No, it is it is' an ah it is a ah contract. right And I think that's um recently I was thinking about that again. It is essentially a 50-50. Both parties have to meet in the middle. um Yes, you're giving the employees money for them to do work and you definitely need them to do a certain level of quality in that work.
00:24:09
Speaker
And you as a company need to provide the right environment for them to do that work. And obviously the view on that has changed massively in the last 20 years, what that means. yes um But ah if the company isn't really delivering, and again, for me, that includes a clear direction, yeah goal setting that everything is clearly communicated, accessible, regular communication.
00:24:34
Speaker
aside from, again, all the desk, dot, dot, dot stuff, a nice office, yeah um and ah also things like remote work. and yeah yeah um But it is a 50-50. And um I don't think yet coddling your employees is not going to get you anywhere. And and and you know the clear And they also won't grow either. No, no. And if, you know, if you're not clear on what you want from them, you also, in my opinion, can't be disappointed when they don't deliver. Exactly. I totally agree. yeah But most people think they are being very clear. Yeah. and that's that's whole I mean, human communication, we could do a whole nother podcast podcast about that it regularly.
00:25:18
Speaker
It just astounds me how difficult communication can be. um But yes, ah you know it's it's very true. A lot of people do think that they're being very clear. Yeah, yeah yeah definitely. And I think that's why the framework you described at the beginning, and we'll come back to it later, can be a great tool to get everybody on the same page.
00:25:38
Speaker
ah At least when it comes to a common language, like, look, this is where we want to go. This is how we break it down. That's what is expected of you. And from HR perspective, this is how we try to help you to get there yeah or support you to get there. yeah Or of course, in a multifaceted way. Yeah.
00:26:00
Speaker
Well, okay.
Remote Work: Evolution and Management
00:26:02
Speaker
So, wow. I think in summary, HR is in a very tough spot. yeah And I don't think, I mean, this to what it sounded to me, I don't think that's going to change anytime soon because, well, I think human interaction is just complicated and HR human resources is just basically in the middle of it. yeah And not only is it going to change anytime soon as it's getting easier, I actually think it's going to get harder. yeah Well, because um we're now in a transition phase when it comes to how we approach work in the first place. yeah And you mentioned this shortly, you talked about remote work. So that's actually what I want to get to, specifically the comparison between on-site and remote work.
00:26:57
Speaker
You know, before COVID, remote work was frowned upon. Then came COVID, there was no other choice. yeah Everybody was freaking out. And for some very miraculous reason to most people's opinion, it worked. Well, more or less, of course, it depends on which type of job. Yeah, let me be clear. definitely You cannot be...
00:27:21
Speaker
If you work in a factory, there is no remote work you can do, at least not yet. um Well, now many employees are forced back into the office. Well, what is going on and what is your perspective on this?
00:27:38
Speaker
This is really one of my pet peeves, this topic, and um I find it very interesting. yeah The approach ah that I see a lot of companies taking drives me crazy.
00:27:50
Speaker
um i think what we're we're it's Again, it's a multifaceted issue because you have just the question of remote work. Does it work? Does it not work? But you also have to really view it in our current situation, um the the economy,
00:28:07
Speaker
Yes. Some of the issues that um businesses are facing and um i you really do see a surprising amount of businesses saying having gone from hybrid or completely remote during COVID obviously to a form of hybrid to three days at home, something very flexible, you know, maybe, maybe let's say two days in the office to reducing it to one day at home and the rest in the office.
00:28:35
Speaker
and um I've really been asking myself as well, why why is this happening? And I can only say from what I hear yeah people talk about, uh, it appears, you know, some of the common, um, statements are performance. Isn't that great? Okay.
00:28:56
Speaker
OK, I'll come back to that. Obviously, it's a big one. Yeah. ah i've heard And this is my favorite that I just want to explode at um while we bought new offices. ah So we want to bring people back in. Yes. Sure. OK, again, I'll come back to that. um ah LinkedIn with performance is oftentimes just the assumption that people work better together when they are um together in the same space.
00:29:26
Speaker
um
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think those let's say those are some of the um biggest um biggest pointers. I'll go to the easiest one. Because you bought office space is not a reason to bring people back in because now you have grumpy people working in your office. I don't see how that's going to help you. ah Maybe find a way that you can rent out part of the office space. Let's not um have um those be reasons to ah make people's lives harder.
00:30:01
Speaker
Make them less motivated at work, potentially. I think all in all on this topic, we need to come away from assumptions. That also includes me, by the way, me saying people are going to be grumpy if they have to come back in the office. That's like, well, it's a little bit based on data, but it's also an assumption. So let's come away from those assumptions entirely and please every business for but themselves, speak to your people. I was about to say. Yeah. And, uh, the, I remember the business that I worked in when we were in COVID. We, you know, like everyone else, we were sitting there going, okay, shit, what are we going to do? And it was much easier for us. We were a tech startup, um, small company. Everybody had ah had a laptop. Everybody was already working from home a couple of days, um, in the week.
00:30:45
Speaker
um So as such, that wasn't a big um operations issue for us. um And our COO said, all right, well, we're we're just going to have to deal. It's going to be ah about a 20% drop in productivity, and we'll just have to deal with that. And I just looked at it and went, where did you get that from? Where is that number? People are pulling data or numbers out of nowhere and saying productivity is going to drop.
00:31:06
Speaker
um COVID is a little bit of a different situation because you had a lot of people who were working at home with kids. And that's, I'm not even going to say, of course that's not an ideal situation. And I think everyone, most parents are going to agree with that. yeah yeah um So I'm going to park that and and um that's that's an exception situation.
00:31:28
Speaker
But generally I've heard this quite a lot that people just sort of say people work less when they're at home. They're more distracted with household things and I don't know what. um Which I'm really sorry as such the data doesn't show at least not the data that I've seen. And um you for for so and so many people you have that don't work as well at home and need the structure of an office.
00:31:49
Speaker
um and are you know more distracted doing household, you have the other half ah that actually work better at home or less distracted at home, because I can tell you if as HR, if you're sitting in an office, how many times do you think you're being interrupted in a day? So if you're sitting at home, you might get a call to, you might get sure slack Slack messages, Teams messages, but it's very, very different. Well, you can turn that off. Or you can turn that off, exactly. you but You cannot run away in the office. I mean, you could, but then, well,
00:32:18
Speaker
i always loved like in the obvious I don't know if this is still done a lot because I haven't recently worked in tech companies, but you know in the past when they would have different things like put up a little reg flag on the computer if like a ah person was like deep in the code and shouldn't be ah you know disturbed or like people would put their big headphones on their ears, maybe not even listening to anything just so they wouldn't be disturbed. yes yeah i you definitely I definitely did that. right yeah It didn't help. but no no there is no yeah so um and i was I was recently talking to someone actually um about remote work and what they were doing in the company.
00:32:54
Speaker
And um she, again, this was a blanket statement. She said, oh well, people work better in the office. They're more structured. And, um, you know, I think people get distracted at home. And I sort of said, again, like, I can't confirm this. ah This is anecdotal right now. I'm just talking about me. I work a ton better at home. I have never had an issue to get up at nine o'clock, start work and do my work all day. Right. And sure. On the way to make a cup of tea, maybe I fold up the rest of my laundry.
00:33:20
Speaker
but I can tell you if we want to start comparing how many minutes you're doing something else in the office that is not sitting at your desk and how many minutes you use up going to get a cup of coffee and what happens in the way, how many people you talk to in the way, that's valuable in itself as well by the way. But we're just talking plain concentrated time at the um computer. Let's not just do that blanket statement of saying people work better in the office than at home. It's definitely the case for some and not for others. And recently looked at um some research um that was done by several consultant consultancies in Germany. And they've found that if anything, it's equal to productivity at home versus um in the office. So
00:34:05
Speaker
um My big wish would be that people would stop pursuing. We had the situation in the company where I work now as well, that there was some questions. Should we bring people into the office more and they have two days at home at the moment? So that would be really a restriction. And I basically, I said, can I please have a look at the whole situation? Can I, you know, let me, let me draw a little bit of a a mind map of some of the issues we're experiencing as a whole. Because if you're saying performance isn't great or the teams aren't working so well together, let's please look behind that.
00:34:43
Speaker
And it might very well be that we say, for the next half year, we're bringing people in more closely or in total, not just for a half a year. That might be one of the solutions. But please, let's look at all of the issues and then find the fitting solutions for it and not just pick a, to me, somewhat random solution and think that it's going to be a blanket solving all of those issues. If you, for instance, are feeling, OK, my team has a huge project and it's a big push,
00:35:15
Speaker
And they need to work better and together. Let's bring them into the office more please talk to your team and figure out because. you might be really giving your um team so many more problems by forcing them into the office every day, by having the commute ah with their children, et cetera, that in the end, their motivation is going to drop significantly and you're not going to improve productivity. So why not sit down, have a conversation and say, what could we do to improve our team working together better?
00:35:51
Speaker
maybe again, maybe the solution is to be in the office together more, right but then find it out together and decide together. And it might be that you need better,
00:36:02
Speaker
data management system, or maybe you don't actually have a very good um communication system like Teams or Slack, or there might be other solutions that end up giving you better communication for your team, more productivity, and at the same time, a yeah at least level staying motivation and not destroying that motivation by taking things away that are actually quite important to them.
00:36:26
Speaker
Right, right. and i You know this word performance and productivity. ah I mean, you know, I'm a junkie when it comes to those. Yeah. But it also makes me wonder that we are still given all this tech that we have now, all these these remote work ah possibilities and all of that, that we're still tying it to the amount, the number of hours that we work. This is a good topic too. I mean, we all know we're not machines and yeah yet the system is still set up in a way and treats us as if we are. yeah so if i were Just to give an example.
00:37:08
Speaker
Just a very tangible example. Let's say I have to write a report and I have to do it in a day and and I work better at home, but my boss wants me to work at the office. At the office I'm distracted all the time. It takes me nine hours, yeah let's say, nine nine pure focused hours to get that done if I have to be in the office. So no, I can't finish that in a day unless I have to work longer.
00:37:36
Speaker
yeah right But if I work at home, I can finish it in six. Yeah. So for my boss, they get it within the same day. Well, even if I do two hours, nothing. Yeah. And yet I'll be scolded for that. Yeah. Because it's assumed, well, you could have done more with these two additional hours. Yeah. But that's not how it goes.
00:38:01
Speaker
So I'm wondering what are you, is there any movement, any change in this perception or? This is a really, big i like I have so many thoughts firing off right now. This is a really big topic. And, uh, before I go a little bit more into the time or, or goal-based sort of set up, I think also, you know, in, and in, um, completing what I, or not completing, but adding to what I, what I was saying earlier about remote
Individual Performance in Remote Work
00:38:30
Speaker
work and. what Uh, if you have, let's say a couple of employees where you can tell, boy, they are not, I don't, I'm not really sure if they're doing anything at home. And that this happens quite often as well. You use those, you kind of say, ah people aren't really working that well at home. Take for an example, dot, dot, dot. I'm really never sure that I don't really reach them. It takes them hours to reply.
00:38:55
Speaker
That's a different issue. And I can promise you, if somebody isn't working very well at home, they might do a little more work in the office. Yeah. but you have a different problem here. yeah And it's not working at home, we're working in the office. yeah You have an issue with, again, I'm gonna blanket statement, performance of your employee, motivation of your employee. let I don't know, you have to figure that out. um But please, can we ah take one step over people, like ah remote work, yes or no, or how how often is a solution? It's not a problem, please look at the actual problem, right? So that's ah just in terms of um working better at home or in the office.
00:39:34
Speaker
And as much as possible, look at the cases individually. Obviously, if you have a huge company with thousands of employees, you're going to have to make a decision and you're going to have some people that fit into that decision and some not. Um, but don't use three people as an example for the whole business. So, okay.
00:39:52
Speaker
should be logical. Yeah. Well, you would think, yeah, yeah it's and yeah. And I do understand the difficulty of at some point having to make a decision. Uh, and again, some are not going to fit into that, but then especially, you know, if you sort of say, okay, I'm going to leave it flexible, but I'm going to pull, if you, you give the direction to your managers, if you have an issue with some of your employees and you feel they're not performing very well at home, then please bring HR in and devise a strategy to which you can.
00:40:20
Speaker
see, I'm not saying micromanage your people, but maybe there's ways around that. Maybe you can work with your employee, talk to them about it. yeah Again, don't use it as a reason for everyone. um Yes, the the goal-based, hour-based setup This is really a tricky one and I sometimes don't even know where where I feel I stand. I mean some form of a combination I suppose because I remember years ago um I um had a contract and this this was in Scotland and full time was like 37 and a half hours or sorry what it is and but they basically said
00:41:02
Speaker
OK, we need to write hours into the contract, sure. But honestly, we don't care how much you are ah work just as long as you know you reach your goals. Right. Yeah. No. We both know immediately those goals are not fitting into 37 and a half hours a week. Of course not. So now honestly you're fucked. Yeah. Because they basically at that time as well as like you don't write your hours down. Nothing like you just you do you bro. You know what I mean? Like if you want to work at five if you want to leave at five leave at five totally fine for us. If you want to work in the middle of the night work in the middle of the night.
00:41:34
Speaker
Some of that flexibility I think is great. you know like let Some people don't work great at ten o'clock in the or at eight o'clock in the morning, at nine o'clock in the morning. Give them the flexibility to maybe come in at 10, have some core working hours, but let your people work when they need to work.
00:41:52
Speaker
But the flip side of that is also it is actually as you as an employee it's in your own interest that you do and now by law in Germany you actually have to um write down your hours.
00:42:07
Speaker
um Because then you can really see like, first of all, overtime has to be given back or or paid out. Yeah. um So it can be for your protection, too. And what I've always thought is the best way is, yes, you have goals, of course. I think that's really important, actually, that goals are communicated clearly um and that you're given the flexibility of how you work and truly this has to be part of the company culture. Um, I remember a couple of years ago, five or six years ago, um, I was talking to somebody who worked for Alliance and they had exactly that. Sure. They had their goals. And back then they already, even though the law wasn't in place yet, they, um, stamped it with a stamp. as if we still have staffing system. Yeah, well we do. But they just they're now digital, but they had to note their time down. yeah um But they truly had the flexibility to take a two hour lunch break or take some some of their overtime, leave early. And nobody gave them a bit of a weird look. Yeah.
00:43:13
Speaker
Uh, no, but like the team, I remember the team of the contract I was talking about earlier that I'm still in Scotland. I mean, by and large, it was a great company, um, and a great team, but I remember especially at the beginning, sometimes I would leave like a half an hour early and it just be like, are you coming at nine 30 or nine 45 is like, Oh.
00:43:30
Speaker
What have you been up to? You know, sort of with like a, right, well, we're all here working. Where have you been? Um, so you want to make sure that it is actually truly the company culture to give that flexibility. Yeah. And I understand you might want core working hours or something of the sort, but, uh, so basically the answer for me is both give flexibility, let people work in the best way.
Fairness and Flexibility in Remote Work Policies
00:43:56
Speaker
ah in the way that works best for them allows them great productivity ah and also note down exactly how much they work and pay them for that work, whether it's with time off um or um or extra pay.
00:44:15
Speaker
And I would add to that, maybe try and help your employees. If you feel somebody doesn't know actually how they work best or is struggling to find that out, maybe find a way to help them to figure it out. And if they need closer management, maybe they need closer management for a while, but don't take away the option for flexibility because you're only going to get, if you force people into working one single way, you're only actually hindering yourself.
00:44:43
Speaker
Yeah. And you're only going to get one type of people. It's kind of like a little bit like, yeah, no, but absolutely like at school, we maybe cater to three core or what we actually, sorry, not core, like three, two or three ways of the the in which people learn. And we now have so many learning disabilities, what we call learning disabilities.
00:45:05
Speaker
And to me, it's just, it's a different way of learning. It's a different way of processing information. Um, of course you can't cater to every single way because we have, you know, too many, too many profiles, learning profiles, I suppose, but it's the same that, you know, I think we're restricting ourselves too much with stuff like that, whether or not in education or in our jobs.
00:45:29
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think so too. And I mean, it's interesting that you say that when it comes to culture, I remember when I was working at the university during my PhD, you know, as soon as the tech came around and big, then there was no real, you know, it's fine if you work remotely. yeah I really started to argue like, why the fuck do I have to be here? yeah um I need to write. I need to read. I need peace and quiet. Why can't I do that at home? Well, and then they pulled arguments out of their ass that even astounded me was like, yeah, that makes you're a scientist. That makes no sense. Yeah.
00:46:06
Speaker
And um in the end, I fought for it and then it was fine. But, oh, did I get the looks? Yes. Oh, did I get the looks from colleagues? Yeah. And I was very surprised by this because I thought, why don't you do the same? Yeah. But they, I don't know, for some, I I don't want to call it hurt mentality, but I guess it's just, ah it as you said, if it's not normal in the culture, yeah it's just very hard for them to just even define with it themselves. yeah And if then somebody breaks out of the line, then well, that's basically it. Yeah. And this is actually a difficulty for companies. And in fact, it is, um, a difficulty where I work at the moment where I'm, I'm genuinely not sure myself how to best solve the problem of fairness, for instance. So we have largely in the group, the contracts are working at the office two days at home.
00:47:13
Speaker
And now, and I'm one of those people included since the beginning of the year, we have three actually there were two people that were remote before that and now three three extra. um So you know we have a handful of people that are remote. And um and an example, ah we were doing a team workshop.
00:47:33
Speaker
And we asked people to be in the office. We asked the people who have the, I'll say office jobs just to differentiate the office jobs to be in the office. And in fact, actually, two of the remote people were coming as well. And one of the other remote workers couldn't because they have a different setup. They're not required to come in some of the contracts, for instance, mine. And we've we've written in that I come to the office um once so a month.
00:48:00
Speaker
It's about a six hour journey just to to clarify. So it's it's always a couple of days trip. And one of the, I mean, I was the the person giving the ah workshop and one of the people said, oh, I'm gonna, just to let you know, I'll log in, I'll join from home um because I'm on holiday the next day. And currently I can't come with the car, I'm coming by train and that's always a bit of an issue. So I'm gonna join from home.
Innovative Work Design for Modern Needs
00:48:29
Speaker
And I said, look, I'm really sorry. We're really trying to bring everyone in.
00:48:34
Speaker
Home office, or sorry, that's the German term. Working from home is a benefit we have, which is yeah attached to the requirement that nothing urgent or nothing um is happening at the office where we should be there in person. um So please do come to the workshop. I'm coming from Berlin. yeah Somebody else from your but from your team is actually coming from Berlin as well.
00:48:56
Speaker
And, you know, they of course weren't so happy about it. And a big part of me understands that too. And a big part of me understands why some of the team who have their office work contract are saying, and I'm sorry, why am I restricted to only two days in the office when these couple of remote people over there are never in the office? It seems to be working fine. Yes. So how do you create fairness on that?
00:49:20
Speaker
um Part of me thinks, right, if you want a remote job, get a remote job. sure Negotiate a contract that's remote. ah That's a very black and white way of seeing it.
00:49:33
Speaker
You know, a lot of companies have some people that are remote and other people that are required to be in the office. But yeah, it's it's a very big question for me. How do you create fairness in this? What does the fairness mean? If some of the people are remote, could we just say everybody can decide for themselves? It's it's ah it's a complex, again, it's a complex um situation. Right. i'm And I think really each company has to look at the situation individually. My hope is just that they don't use blanket, you know, it's just assumptions, but they actually speak to people.
00:50:03
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's the biggest issue because often it seems to me that people are being called as a blanket statement back into the office in order to simply avoid doing what you just said. Having difficult conversations as well. Having difficult conversations or just not even wanting just don't wanting to waste the energy to do that. um Not even potentially considering the upside of this. yeah And maybe it's also a little bit of a narcissistic nature where they just want to have the feeling of control.
00:50:37
Speaker
That anyway, oh my gosh, yes. Oh my God, of course, because you think, ah well, I can see he's sitting at the desk, so he's working, I'm sorry, bullshit, yeah really bullshit. If somebody isn't motivated, they're gonna find their own way of not working. And even if it's in a way that you don't even notice, even if it's not in the way that they're reading the newspaper online, even if you can see their screen and their writing code, I can promise you that doesn't mean productivity. ah So control is a huge factor. and I'll add one little thing that I think is actually pretty important. and Again, this is ah another huge topic, but we need to get better at all of this. We need to get better at finding more innovative ways to create, to to design positions. That includes for me working from home.
00:51:24
Speaker
That includes um having part time splitting positions. Yes. We're looking at a workforce that's becoming older and older. we we We're going to have a really serious problem about, well, it's already starting now very slowly um and we need to become more creative. Also, we need to find a way for young parents to be able to work, but also stay at home ah you know have a good yeah part-time situation because we need people.
00:51:49
Speaker
And it's absolutely going to continue, in my opinion, to be an um employee market. They have the choice. um So I think we desperately need to become more innovative in the way we design positions.
00:52:05
Speaker
And that's a comp. Again, it's a really complex situation in question. And my feeling also on, you know, why are people just bringing everyone back to the office and not leaving them remote is because it's easier to just go, all right, let's just all come back. People work better together, which is, by the way, true in some respects. There's no question that there is some really valuable stuff going on when you see the person, when you're talking to them in person.
00:52:35
Speaker
I'm not denying that whatsoever, but um yeah, it's oftentimes the HR, you you have to put a lot of thought into how you design a hybrid company or a completely remote company. you have How do you bind your people to the company? How do you create team feeling when they never see each other? Those are questions that require time to solve.
00:52:57
Speaker
HR team oftentimes doesn't have time or they the company doesn't want to give the money for that. I've always sort of dreamt of a situation where let's say maybe a big group or just a big company says, you know what, we're kind of interested and interested in solving this problem. Hannah, here you go. You have two years, figure out how you you know how to successfully split positions across two people, especially in leadership, what to do about remote work. how to buy you know, and to really have like, to not, not research, like as in because I would want to be in, I mean, yes, research, but actually in, in a business setting and to really try to solve some of these problems. I think it would be very interesting. So if anyone is out there who would like to give me a job just to solve these problems, I'm all for it.
00:53:38
Speaker
And you could do it. I'm very sure you could do it. You have, you have to have time. You have to have space to try things out and you have to have people who, people in companies who are willing to try it out, right but you can't solve it. i'm I'm a hundred percent sure of that. Yeah. And I think when it comes to, you know, these blanket statements, um, and all honesty, you know, I was really sometimes, uh, when I was in management, I was too lax on some of the people that worked, uh, for me. And sometimes I was too hard. Sure. And.
00:54:10
Speaker
I don't personally, I don't like to be micromanaged. and I hate it. yeah I really hate it. So I don't like to do that to the people that work for me yeah either. yeah But I realize that sometimes it is unfortunately necessary to realign and all of those things.
00:54:27
Speaker
So back when I was at university, I didn't get these just work from home as a blank check. yeah It was, I literally said, okay, let's try this for two days. yeah Let's try it for two days. And if it works, we can keep it potentially expanded. I saw it more as a um as a bonus that I show I deserve by proving my work ethic and performance. yeah And whoever can't do that, well, who'd say well then?
00:55:06
Speaker
to be in the office. yeah ah yeah I really see it more like ah like a bonus that you have to earn because it is, no matter what we want to say or how we want to flip it, it is tied with a lot of trust yeah and also trust in your ability to be able to organize yourself absolutely to stay focused um so you get the stuff done that you hired to get done.
00:55:29
Speaker
yeah Right. So, but but I haven't seen a potential scorecard or gamified system yet. Well, maybe it exists. I just haven't seen it yet be implemented in companies. I've just seen the blanket statements. Yeah. but So this was now.
00:55:46
Speaker
whoo So this was all from the perspective of, you know, the new work, remote work, all of that. I'm wondering, not to go into blanket statements, what effects of it have you seen on the employees themselves? Because also again, in all honesty, this was always my dream. Hey, I can work from wherever I want. I can work at what time ever I want. But I also came to understand that Not everybody works the way I work or the way we work.
00:56:19
Speaker
um What are the consequences of remote work on, as you said, there you know talking to colleagues in the flesh um has has definitely advantages. yeah But but what what effects does this have on, you know let's start with team cohesion, for example, and then let's maybe go into um the individual's mental health yeah implications of the employees themselves.
00:56:48
Speaker
Yeah, i mean I think this is one of the biggest issues and also one of the question ah biggest um problems to solve if you want this to work out well. um I think there's many small things that we don't even consider that happen when we see people in person. First of all,
00:57:06
Speaker
really a lot of small cues. If you're talking to someone, just really having the sound stupid, the body in front of you being able to read body cues, getting a very different feel for someone, potentially even reducing misunderstandings. So the today this is just aside from what you're talking about, even just having the people all there in person on basic human communication is already very different. Um, next, you know, just having people in the office, the typical thing is all these little conversations that don't happen them on purpose that by the way, we were talking about earlier in terms of distracting, they're also very helpful and very necessary. And, um,
00:57:51
Speaker
Somebody was recently telling me as well, you know, that they get when they're in the office, they get very valuable say side information that they don't get when they're working from home. ah Just little like things you hear in the corridor or a colleague just mentions like, oh, my gosh, we just, you know, I don't know. We just solved this problem or ah everything from actually valuable information for your job.
00:58:18
Speaker
to having those small little conversations by the buy the kettle while you're waiting for your tea water to boil.
Social Interaction and Mental Health in Remote Work
00:58:26
Speaker
um you know I notice it in my position now. i Like I said, I go to the office once a month. And just standing there chatting to some of these people is not not even people in my team, just generally you know people that I work with here and there. um It's really an interaction.
00:58:49
Speaker
That binds you that that i will not bind. I think that's too strong a word, but it gives you a different level of interaction of different level of understanding actually for people for the company for the company culture.
00:59:03
Speaker
Um, that's much harder to create when everything is online. Yeah. Sure. You, and this is, I mean, just what we talked about, this is a problem that has to be solved. I'm sure we can solve it. What I think would be ridiculous is if we said we can create exactly what we get in person online because no, of course we can't. new cop There is no way.
00:59:26
Speaker
Um, not until we have, I don't know, VR glasses and we're all standing, I don't know, you know, what let's let but let's believe that that we're talking about the next five years, not the next 50 years. yeah Um, so, uh,
00:59:41
Speaker
that all the way. So I'm always thinking about these situations when, um, there's a team dinner or company dinner, you know, let it be a summer, uh, summer fest or the winter, the the Christmas party. Um,
00:59:56
Speaker
seeing people in a different setting than just in a meeting or at their desk, having different conversations, um, I think allows you to empathize, for instance, way more with the person. If you know a little bit of personal information, you know, we're not talking about great detail, just, you know, they have kids or where they went on holiday and you might have some little conversations like that online too, but just generally speaking, if you.
01:00:22
Speaker
the more you are in person, the more you share that kind of information. Of course, you actually have to create situations where people talk that way. um Those are all things that we don't get online. And ah those are all, I think, things that bind us more emotionally to our team, to the company. Doesn't always have to be the case. Depends on how you what your personality is too.
01:00:44
Speaker
um Those are some of the factors that we don't have yeah at home. And that's also sort of linked to what you were asking in terms of mental health. um Yeah. Yeah. That for what we get in person. Right. but Do you think
01:01:04
Speaker
You know, I work remotely now all the time, well, not all the time, but most of the time. And the biggest shock for me was the isolation that came with this. Yeah. And all of the things you just mentioned, you know, all of this, the little chats at the, yeah the, the, um, but getting your coffee and I'm getting a lot of coffee during the day. Yeah. Not to have chats, but just to get my caffeine. Yeah. Um.
01:01:33
Speaker
I never thought I would miss that. Yeah. But at some point, you know, I was really thinking, I was actually feeling restless working remotely rather than when I was in the office. And that, that in my head was, I first thought something else is up yeah and only after a period of time, I realized, Oh, that's what it is. I need to get my,
01:02:04
Speaker
Okay. So my social energy boost, yeah and I wouldn't necessarily call myself an extrovert. I'm not really an introvert either, I guess. Say stay healthy in the middle, I guess.
01:02:17
Speaker
I never really thought that that could be a factor. yeah I never thought about it. And then I had to get out of my way ah to make sure I get enough social interaction back into my life to compensate for this, what I would normally get if I go to the office. yeah That was mind blowing to me. yeah um But now when I work remotely and I'm at least at home working remotely, I find it quite easy because sure you have your you have your routines, you have your friends and all of this stuff. You have traveled the world a lot yes and you have also worked remotely in very remote places a lot.
01:03:04
Speaker
How do you deal with that? How how do you do that yeah when it comes to the social interaction? Because i mean I've also worked somewhere else and I had the feeling I was basically just, um I am somewhere else physically, yeah but mentally I'm just in a room and staring at my screen yeah and then all of a sudden I lift my head, the day is over and well, it doesn't really matter where I am. yeah how How did you do that? How did you make sure you take care of your mind? Yeah, it's a funny one because I think remote or working from home and remote work, ah or let's i'll rephrase, not working in the office suits me just it without having to do anything for it suits me very, very well. And I do, by the way, miss being in the office
01:03:54
Speaker
Regularly, I don't mean weekly by that. And right now, I couldn't actually imagine taking a job where I had to to be in the office multiple days of week a week. That would be a no go for me. yeah So, um I mean, I um have always worked for companies where I was allowed to I mean, my first sort of big job after my master's was at Skyscanner and they had offices all over the world anyway.
01:04:19
Speaker
and I mean, that's not necessarily to do with that, but they they had multiple days. You could work from home. No, no question. And they also had at the time, I think, uh, four months of the year, you could work from anywhere in the world. And if you were working from a, another Skyscanner office, I think it was even a little bit more than that. Um, that was really my introduction to the business world. So I've always worked in settings where that's possible. And I've always, yeah I've certainly always used the days working at home. And then after COVID.
01:04:48
Speaker
I mean, obviously we work from home from COVID, but then um just in terms of background, I didn't work for nine months months for for health reasons. And then I had to go in working, increasing my hours slowly and it was way better for me to work from home. So I just sort of slid into the remote work and now I'm never looking back. and But basically I think it just suits me.
01:05:10
Speaker
very much. I don't have a problem. In fact, I concentrate better. I don't have a problem whatsoever in terms of motivations. Getting up in the morning, it's not a question. I just get up the same way I would go to the office. I just get up, start my work, done. like it's not ah I know some people really struggle with that.
01:05:26
Speaker
I also don't I'm not distracted. I don't feel like, oh, I could be watching Netflix right now. Like I i couldn't tell you why. I think it's a personality thing, too. I just um it works very easily for me in terms of um the social aspect.
01:05:42
Speaker
I think, again, it suits me because much like you said earlier, I'm not an introvert. I'm also not an extrovert. And i I know now that it pulls a lot of energy from my nervous system to be ah ah around people all the time.
01:05:59
Speaker
So I actually have more energy for myself working at home. And I don't really ever remember missing the social aspect. Well, um I'll rephrase. It's actually now when I'm in the offices, I really enjoy that. And I go, really, I love i actually love this too. I get a lot of out of it.
01:06:20
Speaker
But I never really remember sitting there going, oh, i you know, I feel lonely. I need I want my colleagues around me. I want to be in the office. um So I think ah I'm not a special case. I think a lot of people um feel quite comfortable with that, but in it didn't come. I don't have to work for it. It just came easily to me. Yeah. um In terms of traveling the world in different remote places, um first of all, quite often when I work remotely, I go to visit my family in the US. And then um like last year I was in the US for three months and I lived and looked after my grandmother. And I have family
Setting Up Productive Remote Work Environments
01:06:58
Speaker
around me, right? So I'm doing my work, but then I immediately have people I know around me. And then um the... Well, yeah, sorry. I was thinking of the next, the most recent example was six months in Bali yeah um as you would. Um, and, uh, Southeast Asia in general and Bali especially is a place where you very easily meet people. So I actually made a lot of friends. And, um, again, I didn't really feel lonely. I think again, my personality comes in. It takes a while for me to really feel lonely because ah the year before that I was in Spain in a place where I didn't know anyone for two months.
01:07:36
Speaker
And even there, I don't really remember. I had some visitors, but even there, I don't really remember feeling an issue with my mental, it going to the level where and it affected my mental health. So that's just ah me personally. I also have to add, it's probably a little bit different. I work part time. Ah.
01:07:55
Speaker
That's a big, big difference also in terms of time zone. We've talked about this before. It's much easier to work um to the to to the German time zone. Um, and it doesn't matter which direction if you only work part-time and, um, working part-time means I have more time to go and interact with people yeah and see people. Um, so I think that that's probably an important factor too. I only sort of just really thought about that there.
01:08:18
Speaker
um So I think those are some of the reasons why it hasn't affected me in the past years so much. um But I definitely think that you know for anybody, for instance, considering having a completely remote job, um if you can test it, if you're in a setting where you can say to your company, can I test being completely remote or at least working completely from from home? yeah um could certainly help and maybe going into it with full awareness, this way or that, it might not you know there might be aspects i'm that are going to be harder for me and just going in with an awareness could already help just to pick up, oh, you know what? I'm just way more than usual. I'm sitting there completely unmotivated or I'm feeling down more or, or, or.
01:09:06
Speaker
because like you said, to even realize and notice the issues is already the first step. Yeah. And to just be aware, it doesn't suit everyone. And if it doesn't initially suit you, it also doesn't mean that you shouldn't be doing it. There might be ways to help you out to work, to work around it. um Yeah.
01:09:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I noticed that, you know, of course, when you go to the office, already this act provides a certain type of structure in your day. Yeah. If you work from home and let's say you don't even have a separate office room.
01:09:46
Speaker
the psychological impact of you, you're not, uh, switching your contacts, right? You're in the same room doing entertainment, doing, I'm not doing your laundry, doing all of these things. There's a lot of mixing happening. And,
01:10:03
Speaker
um you are required all of a sudden to spend more mental energy on getting a type of structure into your day that normally something external gave you by you just yes leaving your house. So that's what I noticed, and for example especially beginning of COVID when there were online meetings and I saw people just chilling there in their shorts. I was like, what what are you doing? I was like, well, I'm at home. This is fine.
01:10:35
Speaker
i You're still in a professional setting. Yes, I understand what you're trying to say. I understand that, but well, thanks that you're being that you dressed in the first place, I guess. Well, didn't we have enough example videos of that going on? Oh my God, yes. But I was just thinking, because people have asked me, why did you... And I wouldn't even say I dress up. I would i would dress in a way that you would be in the office. or Yeah. And they asked me, why did you do that? It's like because it helps me get my mind in the right place. I cannot sit in in sweatpants on my couch doing serious work. Yeah, I mean, I can, but it costs me more mental energy than if I
01:11:25
Speaker
yeah dress as I would if I go to work. yeah and And I think this is something that most people just, and it's a slippery slope. It doesn't happen from one day to the next. Of course, it just creeps up on you. yeah And all of a sudden you realize, wait, what's going on? Yeah, sure. Yeah.
01:11:42
Speaker
Yeah. So that would definitely, as you said, like what are your your yeah what are your basic needs, right? And you should make sure that you get those. Yeah. And I think, you know, checking in with yourself regularly to kind of go, is this still right or not? and yeah through that understanding what your needs are is definitely important. I mean, you were just mentioning, you know, you're doing everything in one space. My office space, my desk is in my bedroom and yeah my living room for you to be more crazy. Yeah. And and I mean, of course, especially when you go traveling, by the way, and you really do remote work, you're going to have that most like unless you can afford your big villa in Bali, then are different. But um
01:12:19
Speaker
That might be quite often the case anyway. so would i even i For a long time, I didn't even have a second screen. I just have my laptop now because I was so used to it from traveling as well. um and I now got a second screen from work and I was trying to set it up. and I just realized I didn't want to see that big screen all day long after after work right yeah on the weekend and I actually i'm I'm not even kidding I put it off the desk and on the side where it's out the way and Have a picture there instead and because that's something small where I go that actually relieves my it It sounds minimal and stupid, but that actually kind of gives me a little like a little It makes me feel like I'm at work, yeah but just the difference of not seeing my setup, unfortunately, I don't have the space of having it in a different room. That's obviously ideal if you could just close the door, but it's sometimes just small things like that that could help you a little to you know um make you feel better
Re-imagining Online Meetings
01:13:19
Speaker
in that setup. Yeah, I totally agree.
01:13:22
Speaker
Now talking about screens, yes you know, when when COVID started, um I started to talk to some of my former colleagues from the university. They were still teaching now. Now they're professors. And, um you know, we we started to talk a little bit about their teaching obligations. And now, of course, all their teaching obligations that they still needed to fulfill moved to the online space. yeah Now my initial thought was, wow, that's great that you can now offer teaching um online to students and make it more accessible. But after talking to them for a little bit, I realized I was wrong. And because my, you know, my idea of teaching online was very different than what they were forced to do oh yeah to provide to the students.
01:14:12
Speaker
um Basically, they were supposed to just change the medium, but keep the approach the same instead of making the most out of the new medium, which requires an adjustment to the approach. yeah And I'm wondering if it's the same thing that we are having now when it comes to this new work and meetings, online meetings,
01:14:36
Speaker
I'm sometimes just wondering, why the fuck am I in this meeting? yeah And it sometimes feels like a little bit of this control. yeah yeah That definitely feels a little bit like it because I have nothing valuable to add. yeah And then the the the argument is often, well, it's important that you hear this.
01:14:54
Speaker
i tell this This one hour meeting could have been a five bullet point summary for me. I have to laugh so hard because I just recently did that to a team. I'll tell you in a minute. because yeah sits and and And they just didn't understand, even the CEO was like, no, yeah, this is fine. No, this is good. This is fine. And then I calculate it in front of his eyes. Like, do you know how much money you just pissed away? yeah And only after he saw that number, he was like, yeah, okay. All right. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah.
01:15:26
Speaker
Yeah. I said, we could have had a team day yeah just for this one meeting. hey it it sits that yeah Long story short, getting the mic to you, you can you can hear the frustration in my and my voice. Do you think we're facing the same problem?
01:15:44
Speaker
It's we're we're not changing the approach to the medium, but trying to fit the medium and keep the same approach. Oh, I think ah definitely. And i honestly, I think it's a very interesting aspect because I think even I get caught in that. Yeah. And I think you're absolutely right. ah We have so many tools now um that I think we should look. And again, there might be some general recommendations. But again, please look at your own situation, at your own company.
01:16:12
Speaker
Um, I think absolutely. I think we, i that you know, I'll come back to what I said earlier. Again, this absolutely includes me. We need to become more innovative and let's look at the actual problems. I think we sometimes take the solutions we already know. yeah I guess that's a general problem in anything in any, you know, trying to be innovative means dropping everything or not even dropping, throwing everything, you know, into the air and just, you know, moving it around and trying out completely new things and leaving the space for things you don't know yet. I think that's the hardest. Right. But yeah, absolutely. We need to be more innovative and I think
01:16:59
Speaker
The better way to be looking at it is to look at the actual individual issues we're experiencing in that moment and then trying to find solutions and being open for the out of the box solution.
01:17:14
Speaker
um and maybe looking in completely different fields for solutions that aren't one to one the same. Yeah. But to try out things. The the good old meeting issue is a big one. yes And oh, that takes a lot of fine tuning because I think you can come away from meetings if you have a really good goal setting system, a really good communication system, a really good um ah a system that's accessible for everyone. you know yeah I learned Notion using Notion from you. Notion is an example coming away from the tool, but ah knowledge management, yeah communication management tool. um If you can have regular interactions that way, you can reduce the meetings. But then I would throw in the question again, okay, we don't definitely don't want meetings that are completely unnecessary and that waste time. That's a given. yeah
01:18:10
Speaker
Do we want to come away from that many meetings though? Do we want to reduce them? Like at what point are we reducing meetings too much? Yeah. Yeah. And again, please, nobody misunderstand that I'm an advocate for a lot of meetings. That's also not the case, but you know, let's again, throwing up the issues and going, looking at them from different types and um aspects. Oh, right. We don't want unnecessary meetings. They actually cost money because you have five people earning so and so much an hour. You know, you can calculate very fast what that means for the business.
01:18:38
Speaker
But you also get some interaction. Yes. you You know, all of these different things. I mean, I recently I'm setting up goal setting for one of the companies in the group that I work for. And a lot of them have never done any form of goal setting. And we're still really working on how to formulate a goal. And I'm really even talking about including numbers in the objective. This is not an OKR set up. So we just have smart goals. We're just using smart goals.
01:19:07
Speaker
And ah this was the first time we said, okay, you guys formulate your goals for your um not for for your for your team, for your um department. And you put them, I set up a loop. Well, we're we're not using Notion, we're losing using loop. um Set up a um ah table and they all put them in there.
01:19:30
Speaker
And I did on purpose decide, let's go through all the goals together and look at, right, obviously the content because the team needs to know what are the different department goals. and But also, could we optimize how their formula, like, is is is there enough numbers in there? Is it clear? Does the form, um the um how it's formulated need to change? It took us over an hour and a half.
01:19:52
Speaker
damn And it was like pulling teeth and I'm pretty sure pretty everyone because especially when it wasn't their goals anymore They were just sitting there going like I want to hit my head against the wall. Yeah And my thought was this was my thought going into it. It will actually be valuable to hear for them to hear. Actually, you know, this goal isn't in its clearest form because XYZ or consider dropping this or adding that. But obviously, after an hour and a half, you're not hearing anything anymore. Like you're just it goes like.
01:20:23
Speaker
beep. So what's the what's the point? And I think um some people were very frustrated. And now I'm now going to change the approach to um next um the end of next month, I will have initial individual meetings with the departments to talk a little bit about how they've you know what are their goals. how did they really like How are you going to word them? And then we have the goal setting meeting where everybody shares their meeting. So we can reduce.
01:20:52
Speaker
What I'm trying to say is I think the meeting issue will forever be a hard thing to get right. Yeah. And you're not always going to get it right. But the important thing is also way more like learn, have a look at it regularly and try out different things. Yeah.
01:21:10
Speaker
Maybe that way you find a good medium. But like you said, we definitely also need to look at how we're solving these problems. And if we why are we keep why do we keep using the same rotation of tools? Is there something else?
01:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to clarify, I think i'm I'm not against meetings. I'm against useless meetings. Yeah, absolutely. Which are, unfortunately, the Yes. That's at least how it feels. It can be. Absolutely. um Sometimes I feel one of the biggest issues is that the there's are no clear goal for that. Maybe there is the sales meeting. yeah And then you go around and everybody says what they've done. And you're like, all right. Why is this helpful? So actually, yeah, questioning regularly Is this meeting necessary? If so, yes. Are we actually doing why it's necessary? Might be the answer, no. Then have another look at it. Or can it be reduced? You know, it's um funny, the whole the whole sort of agile um approach that that started years ago um was obviously taken to extremes. And the word stand out, we still use it like quite regularly, but nobody actually, when you think of the word,
01:22:16
Speaker
The reason they're called standups is they wanted to reduce the time so much. They forced people to stand up because you talk. The assumption was you talk less if you're standing. And I always loved the various teams you heard of that really took it to extreme. Like you have to hop on one leg while you're giving your update or you have to do press ups you know just to try to like.
01:22:35
Speaker
be as precise as possible and obviously that's an exaggeration I don't recommend that but in terms of like right is there something we can help us to try to be as precise as possible that's not hopping on one leg but you know are are we doing what we're actually needing out of this meeting could there be a different way that kind of thing yeah yeah and I think also you know well what's this phrase I heard very often it's ah fail to prepare, prepare to fail. So if you don't prepare for the meeting or if you did for the one who called it in, yeah I mean, everybody's just going to come in and just wait for you to so for yeah for someone to say something and to lead the meeting and not even that often doesn't take place. yeah And remember, if it's an online meeting, if you want someone to answer, you have to address someone because they can't see where you're looking. Yeah, yeah yeah absolutely. There's just small things like that that are
01:23:33
Speaker
really like i'm meeting, not just meeting etiquette, yeah but kind of like management yeah to try to make it as concise as possible and reduce the unnecessary part of it. Yeah, exactly. And that doesn't require much preparation, I think. it just I mean, there were some really small things you can do to to adjust that. Yeah, I think the ball, the not the ball, the it's very low hanging fruit. yeah We got to a point where the fruit is basically on the floor. yeah you can You can pick it up. In many situations, it most definitely is um there's really some easy some quick wins there to be had.
OKRs and Balanced Communication
01:24:13
Speaker
All right. you know We talked about OKRs as one framework yeah um and you mentioned you know how it can can structure things.
01:24:26
Speaker
Maybe I'm pulling this out of my ass. Maybe it goes a bit too far. You know, I sometimes think it can be a really good framework, maybe not the only one, but just as a framework to help remote people, people on site and individual performance grading itself.
01:24:55
Speaker
to get everything in line. Is this maybe too much? Uh, no, it's definitely, it's definitely not too much. Uh, I think like bigger picture, any form of goal setting, I mean, clear goal setting, yeah um, is extremely important in bringing a business forward.
01:25:21
Speaker
helps the business, helps the employees. Because I think what a lot of people forget, a lot of people, a lot of employees feel it's a system of control or constantly grading your performance. yes And what they oftentimes forget is it's a bit of a contract and it can help the employee too. Because if you have Um, clear goals, if that's an arrangement and I am absolutely an advocate for goals. My opinion, in my opinion, to be successful, they always have to be created top down bottom up. If you just have goals being trickle down from the top and no communication with the people on the ground, so to speak. Well, then don't be surprised if it doesn't work out. Um, so if you do have a top down bottom up approach, like, okay, ours are, um, then.
01:26:10
Speaker
It's a contract in of a form as well. And if, uh, your management comes around three weeks later and says, we're also now bringing on this project or this new client, um, get it done, then you can say, sure. Now let's have a look at what we agreed on. We agreed on ABC. If you want to bring on M Then I suggest a B goal will reduce by 5% or we leave C goal for next month or, or, or. Yeah. And then most likely the company will go.
01:26:49
Speaker
Okay. No, actually ABC is important. Let me figure this out or you come to an agreement. Maybe this new client is actually so big and so important that you do say, actually, do you know what? Some of these goals, they can wait for the month um after, but, um, it's really valuable contract on which you as an employee can also say, sure, I'll do something else, but let's come back to what we agreed on. Do you want to change that? yeah So.
01:27:17
Speaker
you know Aside from being really necessary to move a business forward, I think this is our can be very helpful for employees as well. Something that I think a lot of people don't um realize or see. yeah yeah um yeah Tell me, what was the question again? That's already very helpful because it's not only a tool to get everyone aligned based on yeah the goals, and but also based on what you just described, yeah based on the agreed upon,
01:27:44
Speaker
investment of resources yes because that's kind of what it is. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, I do think like, you know, we said earlier, if you don't, um, communicate what the expectations of a team or and or an individual employee are, then don't be disappointed if they don't deliver because well, what is delivering, you might have a role spec. Obviously you might have a general outline of what you're supposed to do in your possession, but, um,
01:28:13
Speaker
Having clear goals is valuable in so many different um ways. We have to add, by the way, which I think you experienced very much with the OKR system, it is time consuming. yeah you have to ah You have to really find a way um and and it it takes some time to do it in a way that's successful and it doesn't take up too much time.
01:28:36
Speaker
Um, and, uh, you know, it doesn't come from nowhere. Like it's it's going to take work, but, um, it helps you to measure your own performance to have a clear view. what What is your, it forces you to think about a strategy. Um, it forces you to make decisions on priorities.
01:28:58
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's already yes super valuable. Yeah, exactly. that exactly um and ah yet then Then of course it also helps you evaluate, and like if in ah in a dry sense, evaluate your employees' performance. um But it also just gives you so much data. you can test you know i mean Data-driven decisions is about my favorite word and I don't think anybody can hear it anymore because I say it so much at at where I work right now. And ah one of the big goals for the group where I work now is modernization. It's a ah family business that's been around for 30 years.
01:29:33
Speaker
And that's one of my biggest pointers is a goal-setting system, a KPI system, so you can make data-driven decisions. And that just already brings in a lot of value ah for for many different aspects. I would say one important thing, also because we've now you know mentioned OKRs a couple of times and there's obviously different systems.
01:29:58
Speaker
I think one of the most important things is that you find a system that is right for you, your team and your business. Jumping to a different example, I think when agile methodologies were huge and scrum this and scrum that, everybody just started implementing it. yeah And it was like, wait a minute, hold on.
01:30:18
Speaker
Like what you're even missing the sense of the word, it's agility, figure out what's right for you and actually agile methods really lean, like allow you to pick and choose what you, what you want. And, um, I think the same is the case here. People here are like, Oh, okay, ours. Yeah. It's like the buzzword. Let's integrate. like Let's let's do that. It's the cool thing to do kind of thing is like, ah I'm sorry, that's idiotic yeah because it's very, it's time consuming and time costs money.
01:30:47
Speaker
And yes, of course, sometimes we just need to try and approach, test it out. But please again, here as well, don't, you know, just don't go by assumptions, but test it, figure out ways that it might work better for you. Add.
01:31:04
Speaker
and subtract some things, take away some things that don't work for you. So no, okay. Ours, by the way, do not work for every place or, or not all of the aspects of the whole of, if you implemented the whole system, yeah um goal setting in general. Yes, please. yeah yeah That does work for every company, but not a specific method, not one approach blanket
HR Challenges and Leadership in Remote Work
01:31:28
Speaker
for everyone. Yeah.
01:31:29
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. They would say gold setting just the bare minimum. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you you would think, but surprisingly, it's actually not in place in most companies. Yeah. Yeah. ah So we talked a lot about HR in general and and the tough spot that theyre that they are in. yeah what do you and And of course, you know remote work, onsite work, ah the difficulties in communication, it's it's all tied together.
01:32:03
Speaker
Which pressing questions or which hurdles do you think still need to be figured out? Or which of do you think are the most important that we need to figure out rather sooner than later when you look at the field?
01:32:22
Speaker
Oh, that's a really interesting question. I mean, I think some of the oldies, but goodies are still around like simply how do you lead effectively? yeah And what we discussed at the beginning sort of your asshole culture isn't necessarily, does it get you further? Well, you're going to have a higher turnaround. You need to make decisions based on, again, based on data. So you might want to take that approach, but it's going to cost you a higher turnaround. The money on that you can calculate quite easily too. So generally like, how do we lead effectively?
01:32:53
Speaker
How do we create a good but work environment? I'm a big believer in company culture. And by that, I do not mean just five values like chucked on the board and go like, yeah, great, this is it. And change it two months later. And change it two months later. Or my favorite one, having company values, internal ones that are actually directed at what you want, like the PR values, kind of like in the sense of ah what you want your customers to read.
01:33:20
Speaker
um but really for a business to figure out what are our, let's call them internal values. What are are our work values? And then make a clear communication on that. And I, again, but even if you don't have it in words written on a board, but then you make a decision based on that, that helps you create your strategy around HR. How do I recruit? What's important for me in recruitment?
01:33:49
Speaker
How do I manage? um how how does my How is the leadership designed? And and then um gives you direction. And again, we're coming back to what what we said earlier, clarity.
01:34:06
Speaker
Um, in who you are, what you want and where you're going as a business already creates so much more. Baseline calm. I don't, I don't even know how to, you know, but it really ah creates a lot of value because then people know I'm right here or I'm wrong here. I want to be part of this or I don't. Um,
01:34:27
Speaker
And there's a lot of value in that, I think, for also not having, for the people that know this is not the place for me, yeah for the place and for the person. Yeah. No, oh absolutely. This is, it's really important. And again, this is sort of linked for me with a clear goal setting system, because again, then you can kind of say, this is where we're going. This is how we're going there. You want to come along? Yes or no. Yeah.
01:34:52
Speaker
And it can be a no, sure, you know. um But okay, so that's an oldie but goodie that's never going to go away. I think that's a going to continue to be ah not a complex problem to be solved. I don't think it's complex. You just have to ask yourself the questions. You have to put the work in it.
Data and Real-World Interaction for HR
01:35:06
Speaker
um And definitely just really what we already talked about, the biggest and most urgent question is more like the whole new work thing. yeah More innovative work ways of working, of ah creating roles um because I think it's going to be extremely necessary ah going forward, especially because when you look at what the workforce is going to look like in 10, 15 years um and the problems that we're going to start facing, you you know even more so in twenty
01:35:35
Speaker
to 50 years that's not going to be our issue necessarily anymore in 50 years but nonetheless you know we' we we want to be part of creating that now um yeah i think I think we need more data. I actually don't think we have a lot of data in HR to some extent. um and We want data to make decisions on what's right for us. right so so You want the individualized approach, but data helps you to get a general sense.
01:36:09
Speaker
um of what might be effective or helpful. And then on top of that, you can it's very necessary to look at um what's right for me and and and in the sense of what's right for the company. But um yeah, I think the different approaches to to working and how how to reach the end goal of what the company needs is one of the biggest problems to solve now for multiple reasons.
01:36:37
Speaker
well
01:36:39
Speaker
You know, I never really thought about HR not having enough data. I always thought HR has a lot of data. It depends on what data you're talking, right? Like there, obviously there is data, there's no question. Not that they can make decisions, but i I never really looked at HR data. I just assumed with all the stuff that they had to fill out and that they were tracking. But you know, when it comes to data, you also need to have time to actually analyze it and then make decisions. yeah and If it's one person, then well.
01:37:06
Speaker
Yeah. i am Probably to clarify, it would be good to clarify that what I'm talking about is um data around remote work versus in office all that yeah and um data. I mean, obviously there's research and psychology on human communication, on the difference in between being in person or online. yeah Um, but I think a lot more research could be done. Actually just a more trial and error could be done and then sharing that information. And that does, that does happen to a certain extent, no question. yeah Um, but you know, when you really look at, at my opinion anyway, uh, research on.
01:37:46
Speaker
working from home, ah productivity, productivity. It's already like, how are you measuring productivity? It's very, it's a bit of and a wide open space right now. So I definitely think there could be way more data. There's data that there's a lot of information that we have a lot of research on or or a collection of data, even attrition numbers, yeah ah recruitment. Those are all numbers you can pull quite easily, right? Yeah. Yeah.
01:38:11
Speaker
You know, for anyone that wants to get a better understanding of this or, or maybe even.
01:38:20
Speaker
wants some input from you to do maybe their HR work better or, you know, just a general resource on a book where you think like, you know, maybe this was not an HR book, but it was valuable anyways for my HR related work or any other resources. Do you have something you can recommend?
01:38:43
Speaker
I mean, I have some of the again, these at this point, these are probably oldies, but goodies, but there's some books that especially in my Skyscanner time I read. um ah that are some typical ones. One is actually called A Beautiful Constraint. Oh, and old title cool It sort of ah goes through different examples where you use, well, if you know you can imagine it from the from the title, um looking at constraints, looking at issues, and looking at how you can make them work for you um in order to solve them, of course. explore
01:39:19
Speaker
ah Solve them or have them stay there that way but use them. um Then there's books like Culture Code. um I'm so bad at remembering titles. there is um ah the Google guy. Oh my gosh. i'm um I'll give you the links. We'll do this. I'll give you the links afterwards. You can put them in. Now those are all books that were written quite a while ago as such, and I'm going to be totally honest. I have a lack of um resources or sometimes I don't really know where to turn
01:39:53
Speaker
Books sometimes do give me good ideas. Like now I was ah recently, i um I got several books on the systemic approach, which is a little bit more popular in Germany than in the rest of the world. um how to do i mean What I do now is actually not HR. traditional and In the traditional sense, I do organizational development, sort of pulls in operations in ah HR.
01:40:17
Speaker
Um, my favorite parts of HR and of operations. So I'm happy um as anything to be able to be ah combining those two. Um, but it's sort of how like agile organizational development, um, it's books that I pulled out recently. Um,
01:40:33
Speaker
I have to say that books do sometimes help me, no question, but interaction, talking to other people doesn't even, like networking, not in the sense like I want to know people, but exchanging information, exchanging experiences has helped me a lot.
01:40:49
Speaker
um Oftentimes, it doesn't even necessarily have to be with another person in HR. So I'm part of an HR network that has multiple like events in Berlin and has a Slack a group where people can exchange information. I think that's sometimes extremely valuable. That sometimes helps me more.
01:41:10
Speaker
ah um trigger a line of thought or having an idea of something I can try out, um then reading a book. Nonetheless, obviously books are very helpful. I think it also sort of depends what kind of person you are. I listen to podcasts as well, um but I actually don't have like three or four go-to resources.
01:41:29
Speaker
um But I will certainly um send you the links of various books um that have been interesting for me over time. And now this is not accessible for everyone, but I have to say, if I think what has helped me incredibly is the different businesses I've worked for.
01:41:48
Speaker
And I mentioned Skyscanner earlier, it's probably the most single most valuable position I've ever been in or company that I've worked for. And they had one of their biggest values was actually um knowledge sharing at Skyscanner University where you could actually sort of take different courses and topics. But um a lot of the things that I've learned and still know now or use now. And um and it's not just HR, in fact, probably the least in HR. um I learned there because um there was so much you heard so much about what's product development doing, what's growth marketing doing, what's, um and of course, at the time I was a recruiter in the business, so I had to learn about the positions I was recruiting for, so I got more information like that too. But I just, information pops up from where, um
01:42:36
Speaker
Uh, you know, design thinking yeah or different approaches that aren't traditionally HR, but that have helped me to think about issues differently and like, right, well, how can we approach how we can we try to solve this problem? Um, so anywhere, if you don't work in, in a business, in a company where there's a lot of people and you can share a business, a business approach, general approaches to project management, to to anything.
01:43:01
Speaker
Then aside from reading books, if you have any form of joining a network and exchanging information with people regularly, hearing what other people are doing, um, I think that's one of the most valuable things.
Connecting and Continuous Learning
01:43:15
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you. You're welcome. Um, I mean, thanks for this great conversation. Um,
01:43:27
Speaker
If people want to know more, want to reach out to you, how can they find you? I'll give you the various links. I mean, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not the super user on LinkedIn. I'm going to be very honest. Not yet. Not yet. I don't know if ever though. um I mean, maybe I was scarred from being a recruiter and having to do active search on LinkedIn that I never want to see it again. Yeah. but um Yeah. I mean, all the usual paths, sort of um Instagram or LinkedIn. I'm happy for me to leave my email. I'm, you know,
01:43:55
Speaker
Um, like I said, I'm really interested in just exchanging if honestly, also if there's just people who are interested, like other people from HR or C level or from anywhere that just are keen on having a conversations about a conversation about these topics, I'm all for it because in these conversations.
01:44:12
Speaker
You know, we can find a lot of gold, I think. And even if in the moment you don't even aren't even getting, Oh my God, that's a great idea. I'm going to try that. I think sometimes the thing of like talking to someone else about an, about a problem already does so much in your mind. I remember, I'll just say this quickly. I remember when I was a kid, I wasn't super good at math at all.
01:44:31
Speaker
And, um, sometimes I would have, you know, my math homework and I would go up to my dad and go, dad, I can't figure this out. Like, you know, and he'd be like, okay, fine, sit down, explain to me what, what's the issue. And I'd explain the issue to him and then I'd go, Oh, nevermind. I figured it out just an explain. explaining the issue to him. yeah ah So i I see that a lot um that just talking to someone else. So yeah, I'm open for any conversation. um Contact me. You can go have a coffee, virtual or not, great and exchange experiences and information. I'll put everything in the show notes, of course. And I, well, thanks again for your time. And well, to everyone pleasure listening, have a great day. Same for me. Thank you very much.
01:45:14
Speaker
Hey everyone, just one more thing before you go. I hope you enjoyed the show and to stay up to date with future episodes and extra content, you can sign up to the blog and you'll get an email every Friday that provides some fun before you head off for the weekend. Don't worry, it'll be a short email where I share cool things that I have found or what I've been up to. If you want to receive that, just go to ajmal dot.com. A-D-J-M-A-L dot com. And you can sign up right there. I hope you enjoy. it