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Full Episode - Remembering Diego Maradona
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast Episode
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Italian football podcast with John Solano, Carlo Garganese and Nima Tuvali.
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Italian football podcast and a reaction episode.
Who was Diego Maradona?
00:00:31
Speaker
As always, I am joined by Carlo and Nima, and we are here to unfortunately discuss the tragic passing of Napoli legend, Calcio legend Diego Matadona.
00:00:42
Speaker
Carlo Nima, guys, I would like to say good evening, but this is devastating. It doesn't matter if you watched the Serie A or not, the footballing world has lost one of its brightest lights today. It doesn't matter what age you are, if you were old enough to have the privilege of being able to see Maradona during his playing time, if you
00:01:05
Speaker
are too young and didn't witness that and you had to resort to YouTube videos everyone unilaterally agreed that this guy was one of the best characters one of the most talented individuals that we have ever seen in the sport that we so desperately love so very very heartbreaking as we have to say goodbye to one of the greatest footballers of all time so Nima let's start with you how are you feeling? I'm devastated um one of my uh
00:01:34
Speaker
Heroes, a great human being in so many ways. I'm a bit of a mess right now to be honest, but yeah, I'm absolutely heartbroken.
00:01:43
Speaker
I'm a heartbroken myself. This is someone who, I mean, you can just see the outpouring of love. This is someone who's loved by everyone. I mean, I'm just going through social media now, you know, and the legends of the game that are all saying, you know, such lovely things, you know, Franco Berezi, we've got Jose Mourinho, Cristian Vieri, you know.
00:02:11
Speaker
was very beautiful because they were friends given that they were rivals so to speak and in his book Matteo speaks of Lothar in his uncharacteristically Maradona way of saying that he was considered almost as good as me which tells you everything you need to know about how good he was
00:02:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, Chef Chenco. Chef Chenco was in obviously Boca Juniors, his favorite club. You know, all the clubs, all clubs, I mean, he's just somebody that didn't just transcend football clubs, he transcended sport. And, you know, everybody knows who Maradona is. I mean, he's, he's an absolute legend. And, you know, he's died. But, you know, he is
00:02:57
Speaker
for everything that he done he's he's immortal um and you know 100 200 300 years time people will still know who he is um so if there's anything to celebrate that's that's what we can celebrate but i think nowhere will he be will this loss be more keenly felt than than in Naples because
Maradona's Legacy in Naples
00:03:19
Speaker
You know, what what Maradona did in Napoli, you know, is is the stuff of legend. I mean, this is a downtrodden city that's abused, abused by the rest of Italy, the whole North versus South divide, you know, a very poor, poor city.
00:03:37
Speaker
And, you know, he took a club that had never won anything, you know, never won any major titles in their whole history, had been like, you know, flirting with relegation the season before he joined. And, you know, he took the team. No, I don't want to say single handedly, but, you know, he was the man and he dragged that team to not one Scudetto, but two Scudetti took them to a UEFA Cup. And he's a God. He's become a God there in Naples.
00:04:07
Speaker
It's impossible to understand what he did for Naples and how big he is given. Your heritage is from there. You can understand better than anyone, I'd say, and anyone who is from Naples and has family there can understand how
00:04:23
Speaker
the importance of what he did coming there to lift, you know, winning the scoreto, the only team from the south of Italy to ever done that and to and against the establishment, the Italian establishment, which is very powerful with the with an industrialized rich north and a south of Italy that is left behind basically to its fate.
00:04:46
Speaker
and that has always been true. It was definitely true then, even more so now, but he kind of did what
00:04:57
Speaker
war he gave hope to those who should have no hope in a sense that it can be done and i think that that is what that's how he's lived his life because he was one of them you know he came from abject poverty um and he made it to the top through incredible talent of course but also hard work and and and delivered when it mattered the most in a way that no one
00:05:24
Speaker
Probably no one did before him in that way, whilst also remaining true to who he was throughout his entire life.
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. From my standpoint, the thing I loved most about Metadolna was love him or hate him. He didn't change for anybody. The Metadolna that we saw 20, 25 years ago to the one we saw, I don't know, do an interview two weeks ago, it was the same guy. He hasn't changed for anybody. And that's so admirable. I think that is also what made you fall in love with him, obviously beyond his footballing magic.
00:05:59
Speaker
He's somebody that he was, he's a working class hero. He's somebody that, you know, you get some that come from poor backgrounds, but once they become famous, they become rich. They, you know, they sell out, you know, the best example of that is his eternal enemy, Pele, who, you know, once he became a famous footballer and rich, he, you know, he, he, he is, you know, he, he hang around with all, with all the aristocracy and the rich people of society.
Cultural Impact: North vs South Italy
00:06:25
Speaker
And he almost forgot
00:06:27
Speaker
Where he came from whereas Maradona never did he never forgot where he came from and he and he nothing There's nothing that he loved more than fighting for a cause and that's why Naples and Maradona went so well together because you know the economic divide Between the south and the rich the south and the north and and you know the way that southerners Naples been in the south, you know southerners are looked down upon by northerners as being
00:06:52
Speaker
Poor and lazy and you know uneducated and unclean and you know, they were branded terroni Which is a like a derogatory term basically peasants, you know, you're called Africans and Arab Yeah, no, they were they were exactly they were very racist undertones and still is very racist undertones in that term But they're not real Italians because you know that they were overrun by
00:07:15
Speaker
Africans and Muslims, et cetera, et cetera. That's something that has been said about them for centuries, almost for a century, if not at least one century. I'm looking at one of the things he said himself was, yes, I'm the Che Guevara of football. But do you know why? Because you can talk to me and about me about anything. While other other footballers, you can only talk to them about football. I care about the people and I gave them my word.
00:07:42
Speaker
And I know where poverty and war exists. And I know where people need food. This is my life and this is what I learned from the street.
00:07:52
Speaker
He had a big heart. He had a big heart. And that showed by how much he's loved. I mean, obviously in Naples, he's a god, as I said. I mean, you go to any Neapolitan household, any bar, any shop, you know, you'll find a picture of him next to San Gennado, you know, the patron saints. And, you know, when he was in Naples and when he won that Scudetto, you know, everybody named their kid, their child after Maradona. You know, you go around the city, there's murals all over the place.
00:08:19
Speaker
you know, the merchandise that still sold around the city even today of Maradona replica shirts and the wigs, you know, the Maradona wigs that were massive in the 80s. Everyone wanted that big curly hair, you know, and he's an absolute legend. And the stuff that he did in Naples, you know, you can't quantify it. You can't look just at the stats. You have to feel it, you know, the memorable goals that he scored, the moments of magic, that flicked free kick that he scored against Juventus.
00:08:48
Speaker
that was just unbelievable, impudent limp. A lot against Lazio from miles out. I mean, there's so many magical moments. And, you know, when they won that first Scudetto in 1987, there was a party in Naples, which it went on for weeks, you know, you've never seen anything, never seen anything like it. It's unbelievable. You know, they carried coffins of, of, of Juventus, you know, with the Juventus flag draped over it. And
00:09:15
Speaker
and the most memorable thing, I remember the celebrations from 87 was some Napoli fans put a banner outside the biggest cemetery in the city of Naples and on it they wrote, you don't know what you've missed. To all the dead people, you don't know what you've missed because this
World Cup Glory and Serie A Dominance
00:09:38
Speaker
was all thanks to Maradona.
00:09:40
Speaker
Yeah, what he did in Naples was amazing, but also Argentina. I mean, it's it's been said a lot in terms of hyperbole that he won it on his own, but he kind of did win a World Cup on his own. Argentina were a good team, but they were not that good that he took him to that other level single handedly. And he did it throughout his career during a moment in football when it's not like now where defensive defending is as an art form is almost lost because
00:10:09
Speaker
Because FIFA and all the footballing powers to be have decided to put pressure on the beautiful game being beautiful and banning tackling and coming down hard. Back then he was assaulted game after game after game.
00:10:31
Speaker
and they couldn't get near him. They would kick him and do everything they could, but they couldn't get near him. Today, I think no one as illustrates this more than Neymar, who is, if you go near him, he rolls forever. But that's not how it was with Maradona's time. They assaulted him. Yeah, his leg broken. I mean, Goyo could hear in Barcelona. They couldn't get near him. They couldn't come near him. Never. And it was absolutely unbelievable what he did.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean that 1986 World Cup, I mean, for me, he did win it by himself. That Argentina team individually, if you go through it, very, very average team. Look at the other players. No one else was playing for big European teams. I know football was a little bit different there. All the best South American players didn't
00:11:17
Speaker
necessarily all play in Europe at that time, but even those Argentina players who did then move on to Europe after weren't particularly successful, not a big teams anyway. It was really Maradona, Jorge Valdano was a good player, Buda Chagal was a good player,
00:11:32
Speaker
Rugaria in the back was a good play, but there was no other top-class or world-class players in that team. It was Maradona. And you just have to look at the numbers. I mean, he scored or assisted 10 of Argentina's 14 goals in that World Cup. He did 90 dribbles in that tournament. That's three times anyone else in the tournament. I mean, he scored the greatest goal of all time against England. I mean, everyone talks about the hand of God, which I'm sure we'll come to in a bit. But
00:12:02
Speaker
the goal that he scored, the second goal where he dribbled past five England players and the goalkeeper. And I mean, that goal is just, you know, it's unbelievable. The quarter final of a World Cup, you know, not in just a, you know, you know, not in a Mickey Mouse game, you know, this was, you know, the biggest stage, the biggest arena in Mexico and Azteca.
00:12:24
Speaker
You know, unbelievable. And you know what he did, you know, when it mattered, you know, two goals against England in the quarterfinals, two goals to win them the game against Belgium in the semifinals, the winning assist in the final against West Germany, just like with Napoli. I mean, just miracles. Inter just posted something on their Instagram with a picture of Andy Bremen and Maradona. And they said, Ciao Diego. Every era has a great has had a great number 10s, but very few have defined an era.
00:12:54
Speaker
Maradona wasn't just a great opponent. He was the greatest of them all, shall we? Yeah, absolutely. And you get that with everyone. You ask any player. And what you've got to remember is, and what we haven't mentioned, is not only did Maradona win these two skedetti with Napoli, but he did it in a time when the Serie A was not only the best league in the world by a mile, but it was. And when we spoke to Thomas Bertel, the former Germany World Cup winner on the Italian Football Podcast last week, and as he said, this was the best league
00:13:22
Speaker
and most competitive league that there's ever been in history, the period that Maradona was playing in Italy from 1984 to 1991. There's never been a league that has been stronger with every single world class player, every single best player in the world.
00:13:40
Speaker
played for, you know, played in Serie A, you know, and you had those, Andy Bremer was part of the three great world-class Germans at Inter. You know Milan had the three great Dutchmen, you know, you had Maradona at Napoli, you had Zico at Udeneze, you had, you know, Suness at Sampdoria, you had all the world-class players, all the best players in Elquiar at Verona, all the best, they all played in Serie A and Maradona still, you know, he still managed to, you know, outdo all of them and
00:14:09
Speaker
You know you like you said Bremer said he's the greatest of all time Berthold who we interviewed cities of you ask any player
00:14:16
Speaker
you know, that played in Serie A. They all say that Maradona was the greatest. Every single one of them. There's not a single one that says it's Messi or says it's Pele or anyone that played in Maradona against Maradona says it. Ruth Hullet has said it. Franco Berezi, probably the greatest defender of all time. He says it. Maldini, you know, who's played against Messi and Maradona. I mean, for me, there's no doubt about it that Maradona is the greatest.
00:14:42
Speaker
I couldn't agree more and I'm glad you brought that up about the leagues because if no one mentioned it, I was going to bring it up. This is a guy who stood out. This is not the Serie A that we know of today. This was when the Serie A was the crown jewel of world football.
00:14:57
Speaker
Without a doubt, there's nobody like him. And the era, you have to understand in that era as well, in the 80s, and this was before the complete commercialization of football and turning into this money industry. It was, I had a friend of mine who was actually a pretty good youth team player. He played for Malmöf, he was teammates, was Latany Verhimovic. He sent me a message saying, he was the best when football still mattered something.
00:15:27
Speaker
And it still matters something today, but it's a different game than it was back then. And it's really, really hard to understand what he meant. I think one good thing to do is probably to read all the books written by John Ludden, who was on our podcast talking about it, and also to see the documentary that was made about him based on those books.
00:15:54
Speaker
of everything I've ever seen or read, nothing comes close to that. No, absolutely. John Ludden, his books are incredible and some of the stories about Maradona, I mean the legend of Maradona is not just about his accomplishments on the pitch, it's off the pitch and some of the great stories. I mean we know that he had a dark side to him but he never hid from that. We know
00:16:24
Speaker
about that he had that very well documented cocaine problem and there's no doubt that that will have obviously played a part in, probably played a part in his death. I remember when he nearly died, what was it in 2003, 2004?
Personal Challenges and Relatability
00:16:42
Speaker
when when you know he was literally at death's door then and he was massively overweight and he had to have emergency operations i mean i remember that the doctors were saying that even then he had a heart the heart of an 80 year old you know back then so you know and he was in his like what early 40s then so the fact that he's lived on he's lived till now and actually just made 60s only just turned 60 at the end of you know end of last month um you know is a is a bit of a miracle you know he had he had
00:17:10
Speaker
demons, he had trouble, you know, he had the cocaine problem, you know, some of the stories, I mean, John Ludden, I mean, we're not glorifying this at all, because, you know, but the story of him doing cocaine in the Pope's bathroom, you know, when he's meeting cocaine, I mean, that is just when he's, you know, that is just Maradona, you know, and this in the Pope's bathroom. I mean, he was a rock star, wasn't he? I mean, he lived, he lived, he lived like
00:17:36
Speaker
He took life by the throat and by the collar and he did it. He was not perfect. That's the thing that a lot of people misunderstand when you eulogize someone or at least for me, when I eulogize someone or when I pay tribute to someone,
00:17:55
Speaker
To me, it's the imperfections that make them human, that make them so relatable and beautiful in a way, because he wasn't perfect. He made so many mistakes. He had a illegitimate child that he never went... that he had a really problematic relationship all through with until the end when they finally made peace.
00:18:15
Speaker
But all of that, that makes him human, because humans make mistakes. And the difference is whether or not you can own up to them. And he owned up everyone, you know, I mean, some of the stories like shooting at journalists with an air rifle, you know, the
00:18:30
Speaker
The feud with Pele was childish, but it was hilarious at the same time, saying that Pele should go back to the museum and all these other stuff. Karate kicking.
00:18:45
Speaker
the Athletic Bilbao players in front of the King of Spain. Towards the end of his time at Naples, I'll never forget when Napoli had a Champions League game, an important Champions League do or die game, or European Cup, it was known as them, with Spartak Moscow.
00:19:05
Speaker
they had to go fly to Moscow and you know Maradona had been on one of his you know two or three day binges partying and you know he didn't turn up to get to catch the plane and they flew to Moscow the whole Napoli squad without him he refused to go and then he finally turned up the night before the game
00:19:22
Speaker
on with a private plane. But instead of going to join the rest of the Naples squad at their hotel, he went and he took a midnight tour of Lenin's mausoleum in the centre of Moscow. Luciano Modji was actually at Napa at the time and he was the one that
00:19:43
Speaker
eventually got rid of him even he was disgusted and you know but this is you know this is maradona these you know you've got full of these stories of some of the stuff that that he used to get up to is is like you said a rock star and and it's amazing amazing story so many so many memories um
00:20:03
Speaker
and you know then you had obviously the links with the Camorra as well you know the friendship with the Giuliano family who were the big kind of mafia family in Naples in the 1980s you know it's an unbelievable story but at the end of the day you know he's somebody that
00:20:26
Speaker
is loved by everyone. I mean you you can't honestly you go through everyone that played with or against him or has met Maradona and you can count on one hand you know sometimes the media especially in England they try to create conflict.
00:20:42
Speaker
Between maradona that you know they say oh he's the druggie he's the guy that did the cheat with the hand of god you know he's a bad person you know he hangs out with dictators and you know they say all this bullshit and but you know actually when you actually speak to people that met him people that actually know him people that you know everybody loves him there's only a few bitter people you know people like peter shilton
00:21:06
Speaker
and you know that actually dislike Maradona and that's because they don't know him. Everybody that actually knows him loves Maradona and you know. Valter Zenga just posted something saying goodbye Diego my friend we will play many games and you would still score on me as you always have.
00:21:28
Speaker
Yeah, he certainly did score a lot of goals. He scored one goal that was one of my very first football memories, which was a bad football memory for me.
Italia 1990 and Maradona's Decline
00:21:37
Speaker
It was the 1990 World Cup semi-final between Italy and Argentina in Naples. And I can't believe we haven't even mentioned this, seeing as it's the
00:21:44
Speaker
one of the biggest moments of the career and you know that that game, Italy were the hot favourites, hosting the World Cup, hot favourites to win the whole thing and they had a great great team in Italian 90, hadn't conceded a goal until the semi-final. They were playing against again a very poor average Argentina team, defensive, brutal team, just playing for penalties every game, but they had one great player, Maradona, who was barely fit in that that tournament, but did still managed to
00:22:11
Speaker
produced the moment of the whole tournament where he did this incredible assist to Kanija to beat Brazil in the second round but in the semi-final it was Italy Argentina in Naples and it was incredible how half the stadium didn't know whether to support Argentina or support Italy because that's how much Maradona was loved and before the game he kind of stirred up the emotions a bit saying that
00:22:33
Speaker
you know rightfully that you know for 364 days a year um Naples is not treated as as part of Italy they're treated you know like scum you know as we were discussing before and now you want you know now Italy wants you to support him and you know he really got under their skin he got into their heads and and in that game it did eventually go to penalties and and and he scored um
00:22:57
Speaker
the Argentina's last penalty in the shootout and he just rolled it in, sent Zenga the wrong way, rolled it into the net and Aldo Serena, another interplay, missed the final kick and Argentina went through to the final and I remember crying after that. That was one of my very first football memories, I was so young watching that.
00:23:18
Speaker
No, I remember that and then the final against West Germany as they were called back then and it was a horrible game and Argentina were not playing football at all. West Germany were probably the best team of that tournament and won fairly because they were so good and dominant with Mateus.
00:23:46
Speaker
and of course Jurgen Kohler, probably one of the best defenders ever, central defenders ever. So I remember that game but it wasn't a nice game and it was a game where Germany
00:24:02
Speaker
were also very careful because they were burnt from four years earlier when Maradona decided the game against them and they didn't want to lose and Mateus was man-marking him almost at that game, really interesting. Yeah, Maradona, I remember him shouting sons of bitches in Spanish before the game and that was the end of Maradona's time in Italy really then. He pissed off the whole establishment so much by helping
00:24:32
Speaker
beat Italy in that tournament and obviously going you know doing all these things publicly that basically it was he was politically not welcome in Italy after that tournament and the establishment did everything possible to kick him out and and yeah we can say about his drugs I mean there's no doubt when we spoke to John Ludden who's spoken to people there's no doubt that that Maradona was on cocaine throughout his time in Naples and that Napoli
00:24:59
Speaker
they hid drugs tests to stop him being tested positive. Remember, these are not performance enhancing drugs. So they didn't make him play better. In fact, Maradona said many times that he played much worse because of his drug addiction. So imagine how good he could have been without, but basically that once he started, you know, he started to get over where he wasn't playing as well. After the 90 World Cup, I think Naples weren't
00:25:23
Speaker
that fussed if they lost him and the cover-ups stopped and eventually he failed a drug test for cocaine. He got banned for 18 months and that was really the beginning of the end of his career. He went to Sevilla, he went back to Argentina, he played the 94 World Cup, he scored that great goal against Greece but then failed another drug test and
00:25:45
Speaker
And, you know, then he went, you know, he went back to Boca Juniors. He played with Rick Elmer, the start of Rick Elmer's career. But, you know, that was the end of it. And then obviously he had everything that happened afterwards in the last, you know, 20 years, which has been so much so dramatic. And he's going to be a great, great loss to the football world.
Closing Thoughts and Future Episodes
00:26:05
Speaker
I couldn't agree more. The footballing world has lost the end, one of its brightest stars, one of its living legends. So today, certainly a dark day again, not only in the city, but the entire world of football. So that is where we are going to leave it, everybody. As always, thank you for listening. This is just a very quick reaction to the horrible news.
00:26:24
Speaker
Obviously, we want to pass our long, our deepest and sincerest condolences to Mededhana's friends and family and those close to him. Obviously, a very, very dark day. So that is where we are going to leave it. We will talk to you tomorrow for the interview episode. So until then, bye bye.