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113: Guiding Toward Healthy Rebellion w/ T. Elijah Hawkes
16 Plays3 years ago
Today’s guest is T. Elijah Hawkes. Elijah served as a public school principal for over a decade, including as the principal at Randolph Union in Vermont, and was the founding principal of the James Baldwin School in New York City. Currently, he is a director at the Upper Valley Educators Institute and an advisor at the Polarization and Extremism Research Innovation Lab at American University. In addition, he is the author of various articles on democracy, public schools, and adolescence including appearing in The New Teacher Book and Rethinking Sexism, Gender, and Identity. Further, Elijah is the author of School for the Age of Upheaval: Classrooms That Get Personal, Get Political, and Get to Work, which we’ll be talking about in this podcast. Further, his second book, Woke is Not Enough: School Reform for Leaders with Justice in Mind will release soon.
In this podcast, Elijah and I (Chris) will talk about an education that gets personal, gets political, and gets to work. It's all about how we can channel the anger of adolescents toward fulfilling, actionable livelihoods toward changing structures and systems that challenge and oppress them. Further, we'll discuss the growth of extremism, how dialogue has broken down and the difficulties in performing this work.
GUESTS
T. Elijah Hawkes, Director of Leadership Programs at the Upper Valley Educators Institute and Education Advisor at the Polarization & Extremism Research & Innovation Lab at American University, as well as a former principal.
RESOURCES
- T. Elijah Hawkes' Website
- School for the Age of Upheaval: Classrooms That Get Personal, Get Political, and Get to Work
- Strong Schools, Polarized Times from the Upper Valley Educators Institute
- Polarization and Extremism Research Innovation Lab
- Confronting Conspiracy Theories and Organized Bigotry at Home from the Western States Center
- Southern Poverty Law Center
- Dr. Rachel Kleinfeld's Articles and Books
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Episode and Guests
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode 113 of our podcast.
00:00:07
Speaker
My name is Chris McNutt and I'm part of the progressive education nonprofit Human Restoration Project.
00:00:12
Speaker
Before we get started, I want to let you know that this is brought to you by our supporters, three of whom are David Buck, Josh Tentenbaum, and Zoe Weil.
00:00:19
Speaker
Thank you for your ongoing support.
00:00:21
Speaker
You can learn more about the Human Restoration Project on our website, humanrestorationproject.org, or find us on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook.
Introduction to Elijah and His Work
00:00:40
Speaker
Today's guest is T. Elijah Hawkes.
00:00:42
Speaker
Elijah served as a public school principal for over a decade, including as a principal at Randolph Union in Vermont, and was the founding principal of the James Baldwin School in New York City.
00:00:51
Speaker
Currently, he is a director at the Upper Valley Educators Institute and an advisor at the Polarization and Extremism Research Innovation Lab at American University.
00:01:00
Speaker
In addition, he is the author of various articles on democracy, public schools, and adolescence, including appearing in the New Teacher book and Rethinking Sexism, Gender, and Identity.
00:01:10
Speaker
Elijah is the author of School for the Age of Upheaval, Classrooms that Get Personal, Get Political, and Get to Work, which we'll be talking about in this podcast.
00:01:17
Speaker
And the second book, Book Is Not Enough, School Reform for Leaders with Justice in Mind, will release soon.
00:01:23
Speaker
So welcome, Elijah, to our podcast.
00:01:26
Speaker
Thanks so much, Chris.
00:01:27
Speaker
It's been great to start to get to know you and your work through the podcast.
00:01:30
Speaker
I've been listening to a few episodes recently and it's great work you all are doing.
00:01:34
Speaker
Awesome.
00:01:34
Speaker
Thank you.
00:01:34
Speaker
Thank you.
00:01:34
Speaker
I appreciate it.
Student Struggles and Identity
00:01:36
Speaker
School for the Age of Upheaval, it's about telling the stories of students who essentially need to have their needs met.
00:01:42
Speaker
They're young people who are looking for purpose and identity.
00:01:45
Speaker
They're often struggling.
00:01:47
Speaker
Like for example, you have the story of a young man.
00:01:50
Speaker
He's soft-spoken, but he came in with like volumes and volumes of lyrics.
00:01:54
Speaker
that I think many adults who would read in the book would say are harsh or vulgar lyrics.
00:01:59
Speaker
You have a kind of socially awkward student who was violently bullied, and he struggles to effectively communicate that with others.
00:02:07
Speaker
It's a collection of various stories of students who are facing adversity, and a lot of times these stories involve violence or threats or things that I think, things that people don't really want to talk about that are just part of the school experience, especially for educators working with young adolescents.
00:02:24
Speaker
The connections that I've read in this book really connect a lot to just the violent world today and this growth of social media, kind of getting involved in circles that you don't want folks to get involved with.
00:02:36
Speaker
And the quote that really stood out to me that I'd like to open with is you write that educators mustn't minimize the potential that violence holds as a means to know oneself and find a sense of power, agency, and identity.
00:02:50
Speaker
And that leads into this idea of what you call creative destruction.
00:02:54
Speaker
Let's just start with that.
00:02:55
Speaker
I'd love to hear more about it.
Curriculum and Purpose
00:02:57
Speaker
The book's divided into two parts.
00:02:58
Speaker
The first part features the stories of young people who are either doing or contemplating violence to themselves or others.
00:03:05
Speaker
And the second part has to do with the kind of curriculum we can create that can help them channel their pain, sometimes their rage, sometimes sorrow.
00:03:14
Speaker
That trouble can go by many names, but helping them channel that in more productive directions that are productive for themselves, productive for their local schools and communities, and productive for the wider democratic society.
00:03:26
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Violence is a way of having an impact on the world.
00:03:28
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If you harm yourself, you're having an impact on your body.
00:03:31
Speaker
If you harm others, you're having an impact on their body.
00:03:34
Speaker
If you punch a sheetrock wall and your fist goes right through it, you're having an impact on that sheetrock wall.
00:03:39
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So force and violence is a way to see yourself in the world, to see yourself reflected back to you and to have a sense of power and agency.
00:03:47
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However flawed and unhealthy that might be for yourself and for your society in the longer term, destruction or violence and force is a way to have an impact and to know yourself in some way.
00:03:59
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So it's important that we channel what is a very natural aggression and what is unfortunately very common pain across our society today in directions that are healthier for young people, for their societies, for their communities, and for our broader nation.
00:04:18
Speaker
That's where we get to curriculum that is personal, that gets political, that supports students' metacognition, and that helps them get to work doing things that need doing in their communities and in their schools so they can have a sense of purpose, belonging, and selfhood that don't depend on causing pain to themselves and others as a way to get there.
00:04:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:38
Speaker
You write about in that curriculum piece, exploring that inner life, helping folks channel that into something that's greater.
00:04:47
Speaker
What I would see is almost like an activist stance where folks are able to stand up for themselves and for others by channeling into that energy towards movement building or coalition building.
00:04:57
Speaker
And you just mentioned actually the subtitle there, that the classrooms that get personal, get political and get to work.
00:05:03
Speaker
In the work itself, you also talk about getting meta.
00:05:06
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Do you want to elaborate a little bit further on what that means to have classrooms that are personal, political, going towards work and that are meta?
00:05:15
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You know, I was thinking about some of the students whose stories I shared in the book.
00:05:19
Speaker
And then I was thinking about a student whose story I didn't share in the book, I don't think.
00:05:22
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And his name was Josh.
00:05:23
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I knew him in New York City when I was principal at the
Student Stories of Violence and Turmoil
00:05:26
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James Baldwin School.
00:05:27
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And coincidentally, I knew another student named Josh here in central Vermont, where I've been working as a principal for the last 10 years before I made a career shift.
00:05:35
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Just last year, both young men were being raised by single moms who are struggling and working hard.
00:05:44
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and not earning a dignified enough wage to have the life that they want for their children.
00:05:51
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These two boys, both named Josh, have some interesting things in common.
00:05:53
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They both punched walls.
00:05:56
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I'm remembering in particular Josh from New York City one day, he punched the concrete wall in the boys' bathroom, or maybe he punched the divider between the stalls.
00:06:03
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I can't remember, but I think he broke his wrist.
00:06:06
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And he was in my office after it happened and ended up writhing on the floor and really like a tremendous demonstration of like pain and turmoil.
00:06:17
Speaker
And it was partially related to the pain in his wrist, but it was also because we were calling his mom.
00:06:24
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And he didn't want to burden her with his trouble that day because they had recently been evicted from or booted from the shelter that they were staying in.
00:06:33
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They were recently homeless.
00:06:34
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And he just couldn't bear the idea that his pain would again fall upon the shoulders of his struggling mom.
00:06:40
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And the pain that he was feeling, the reason why he was so enraged that day and frustrated, I guess frustrated, I don't know.
00:06:46
Speaker
I don't know how he would name his emotions.
00:06:48
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And that's part of the point.
00:06:49
Speaker
He was pursued by someone who had come to the school or into the school community with a gun.
00:06:54
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So he had like gotten in trouble in the streets.
00:06:57
Speaker
And so now his life was in danger.
00:06:59
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And he was so frustrated with that circumstance that he punched the wall and broke his wrist and then was in tears with the idea that we would call his mom.
00:07:06
Speaker
So there's a young man that needs a school
00:07:09
Speaker
that is going to get personal, get political, get metacognitive and get to work with him.
00:07:15
Speaker
And by that, I mean, in terms of getting personal, that Josh will see his story as one that other people are also living.
00:07:24
Speaker
If he's able to hear stories of young people struggling in similar circumstances, reflected back to him through the curriculum, whether it's social studies, whether it's through the arts or whether it's the English classroom.
00:07:34
Speaker
If he can hear those stories and even perhaps have the invitation to tell his own, he will feel less alone with that pain.
00:07:43
Speaker
If he can be in the company of adults who model metacognition and self-regulation and help him name his own emotions, he'll be able to control them more than have them control him.
00:07:56
Speaker
He could forecast what might happen if I punch this wall.
00:07:58
Speaker
He could forecast in his mind and think ahead with some skills of self-regulation and self-control.
00:08:03
Speaker
Well, I really don't want my mom to get called, so I better not punch this wall, even though I'm feeling really angry right now.
00:08:09
Speaker
So getting personal, getting metacognitive is an important first step in achieving a sense of balance through your day and through your world and not letting your rage and your pain control you and finding ways to turn those struggles into strengths.
Curriculum Linking Personal and Political
00:08:24
Speaker
But on top of that, Josh and his society need that school to have a curriculum that gets political because the struggles his mother and his family are enduring are struggles that other families and moms are enduring.
00:08:36
Speaker
And if more than one person is enduring something, if your personal story intersects with others, all of a sudden we have a policy discussion because we're having conversations about lives that are shaped by similar circumstances in similar ways by people who are making rules that determine to a large degree how we live our lives in some pretty basic ways.
00:08:55
Speaker
So he needs a curriculum that gets political also and has conversations about housing and low wage work and why a majority of people
00:09:05
Speaker
Shift now to the state of Vermont.
00:09:07
Speaker
Why a majority of jobs in Vermont don't pay a wage that could pay your average cost of housing.
00:09:12
Speaker
These two boys, both named Josh, they need a curriculum that gets political so that they can understand that there's something that needs breaking in this world.
00:09:21
Speaker
There's something that needs to be undone.
00:09:24
Speaker
And it's not my hand that
00:09:26
Speaker
And it's not my friend and it's not my peer, but it's this structure that is political and that ties right back to the choices that people in power are making.
00:09:35
Speaker
That's partially what I mean by getting political and also creative destruction and rebuilding something healthier.
00:09:42
Speaker
And that also dovetails with getting to work and being able to see your impact on the world in different ways.
00:09:47
Speaker
pushing the curriculum out into the adult world, which is also the world of childhood, like pushing outside the walls of the school so that you are doing work that the community needs doing.
00:09:57
Speaker
And a lot of this is just about interrogating what the needs are of the children in the community and orienting the curriculum in the direction of those needs.
Educators as Political Advocates
00:10:05
Speaker
As you're speaking, I can't help but think of a lot of Jonathan Kozol's work surrounding coalition building, but also just the stories that he would tell about especially impoverished schools and the systems that these schools faced from environmental issues, both in the community and at the school itself, the lack of economic opportunity for folks that were there, the lack of economic opportunity to fund the school, let alone the families.
00:10:31
Speaker
And it seems like there's a call to action there.
00:10:34
Speaker
between changing the curriculum and getting personal that calls upon educators to themselves become political advocates for students, recognizing the fact that the classroom itself cannot fix poverty, that it is going to have to go beyond that with educators demanding change in their local communities.
00:10:54
Speaker
and nationwide for that matter, especially given the current events of today and the forces that would be heavily against any idea of including a curriculum that would, for example, specifically call out the discrimination against black lives.
00:11:11
Speaker
It wouldn't happen in many communities without a lot of blowback.
00:11:15
Speaker
What advice would you offer educators that want to do the work in this book
00:11:21
Speaker
But the political forces kind of at bay are going to make that very difficult for them.
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah, great question.
Building Trust with Families
00:11:27
Speaker
Obviously, this book came out a few years before the more acute divisiveness in our society that we see today.
00:11:35
Speaker
By saying it's more acute today, I don't mean that it wasn't there before, but of course, it's being given new voice in schools or a new site for those divisions to play out.
00:11:43
Speaker
My advice is partially about, and I've heard you mention this on your podcast, is connecting with other people and forming networks of solidarity, no matter how small
00:11:53
Speaker
Because this work can only be done in coalition in the best case sent in the best case is going to be done in multiracial working middle class coalitions of people who who care about the welfare of the children that we're rearing together in our schools and in our homes and in our in our other public spaces.
00:12:10
Speaker
So that's one word of advice.
00:12:13
Speaker
But at the level of the school, the strongest foundation for any of this work is a strong relationship with the family of the child.
00:12:21
Speaker
And so it's really important that the curriculum and the teacher and the school find ways to value every family.
00:12:30
Speaker
That doesn't mean valuing everything about every family.
00:12:33
Speaker
There are families that are waving the Confederate flag on their front porches.
00:12:38
Speaker
Dad gets up and goes to work and he works for wherever he might work.
00:12:44
Speaker
The grandmother stays home and does X, Y, or Z. Or the great-great-grandfather was a veteran in World War II.
00:12:51
Speaker
There are elements of their family that the school can value.
00:12:54
Speaker
And there are elements that they may not need to value, but the point is to value every family.
00:12:59
Speaker
And in doing that through the curriculum, making sure that the family feels visible, seen, and understood, one lays a foundation of trust upon which you can do almost anything and without which you can do very little.
00:13:12
Speaker
So that's key.
00:13:14
Speaker
And in this politically polarized climate, it can be hard to do that because we retreat to extremes, all of us, where it feels a little bit, not necessarily...
00:13:24
Speaker
in the extremes feel safer, but with people of like mind, it can feel safer.
00:13:27
Speaker
And so to be a teacher who's reaching out to a diverse array of families, diverse ideologically or diverse in other ways, and trying to find connections with them that lays the foundation for this mutual project of raising this child together, because that is what's happening in the schools.
00:13:43
Speaker
That can be really hard in today's political climate, but it's very essential.
00:13:46
Speaker
It can look really simple.
00:13:48
Speaker
Like this eighth grade teacher that I used to know and respect so much, every year she started with where I'm from poems, where the children write about through the objects of their world and their memories, they write about where they're from.
00:14:03
Speaker
And those go up on the wall.
00:14:04
Speaker
And we take pictures of them.
00:14:06
Speaker
And then at the end of middle school, those pictures of those where I'm from poems are projected out in a slideshow for all of the families to see because they come for an eighth grade passage ceremony.
00:14:16
Speaker
The people in that auditorium know that the school values elements of who they are and where they come from.
00:14:23
Speaker
whether they chop wood for a living or whether they work at the hospital.
00:14:26
Speaker
So that's the foundation, Chris, I think, is work projects, dispositions that ensure that every family feels valued in some way.
00:14:36
Speaker
Whether they tell you that or not, you sort of in good faith need to do that work.
00:14:40
Speaker
It seems like in order for us to form that coalition, it has to be a scenario where people are still remaining, at least at minimum, respectful to all the young people that are involved, recognizing that in order for us to change the minds, perhaps, of those that are misguided, no matter what political allegiance or background they might have, it's going to require someone to reach out and help them.
00:15:06
Speaker
They can't be ignored or have anger taken out on
Community Engagement and Dialogue
00:15:10
Speaker
them.
00:15:10
Speaker
Sadly, I've seen that.
00:15:13
Speaker
I perhaps might have been guilty at it at times teaching social studies, where sometimes you can't help but go like, you know, like, why are you even thinking that and being able to find ways to react to that in a way that's healthy that helps the child grow.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:26
Speaker
However, I think what's also interesting is that you are a school leader, someone who had to support teachers in this work.
00:15:32
Speaker
And I know that school leaders are the ones that typically are going to face all the family pushback, at least the first line.
00:15:40
Speaker
How do you then, from your angle as an administrator, support that work without it dividing the community, if that makes sense?
00:15:49
Speaker
It will reveal certain divisions, for sure.
00:15:53
Speaker
And part of the work of the school leader is to walk towards it and to ensure, again, that the work is being done in coalition.
00:16:02
Speaker
You may have teachers in your faculty who are ready to meet and have conversations with the dissatisfied parent themselves on their own.
00:16:10
Speaker
You may have teachers who are
00:16:12
Speaker
who are newer of a different disposition in terms of the work who may not be ready for that.
00:16:16
Speaker
And so you can step in and support that.
00:16:18
Speaker
Or there may be other administrators on the team.
00:16:21
Speaker
You need to build a team that is able to function like a coalition where different people have different talents, skill sets, and dispositions, because one size won't fit all.
00:16:30
Speaker
If I'm a school administrator of a certain identity, I may not want to meet with that parent because of what he just said.
00:16:39
Speaker
about race in America or about women or so, but maybe there's someone else on our team who can do that.
00:16:44
Speaker
So it's about creating this coalition of people who have different skill sets and dispositions who are able to then to go toward the division and create dialogue in that space with those community members who are
00:16:57
Speaker
stakeholders in the school who are part of families or others that are paying taxes to support the enterprise of public education, who entrust their children to you every day.
00:17:07
Speaker
And so you need to walk towards those family members and engage them in, if possible, one-on-one or small group conversation that isn't rushed.
00:17:18
Speaker
It's kind of simplistic, but it's not, or it's kind of simple, but it's not simplistic.
00:17:22
Speaker
It's
00:17:24
Speaker
Sometimes I think progressive education writ large is about going back in time more than it is going forward.
00:17:31
Speaker
It's about returning to simpler ways of doing things.
00:17:36
Speaker
Like Debbie Meyer boils down assessment to the idea of sitting with a child and talking to them about what they know and what they've done and what they'd like to do.
00:17:44
Speaker
So boiling it down to more simple interaction.
00:17:46
Speaker
So that's a basic role that the school principal can play is to embrace those conversations with people who are not satisfied with the way things are going.
00:17:54
Speaker
And to close the door and have those conversations for as long as they need to be had.
00:17:58
Speaker
Because even if those people leave that meeting feeling like you disagree with them still, or that...
00:18:07
Speaker
They may even leave that meeting feeling like you need to be removed from your role.
00:18:11
Speaker
Like your ideas are so divergent from them, but at least they've been heard.
00:18:16
Speaker
That in itself is something.
00:18:18
Speaker
That in itself is a step towards or a step away from
00:18:24
Speaker
more harmful ways of addressing our problems.
00:18:26
Speaker
I've been reading Rachel Kleinfeld who writes about democracies that devolve into political violence.
00:18:33
Speaker
And one thing she says in that book, or maybe in her essays is all violence in these domains is local.
00:18:41
Speaker
If we want to sort of like paint the more grim picture
00:18:47
Speaker
we see violence playing out locally.
00:18:49
Speaker
And we know that that's happening in certain communities.
00:18:52
Speaker
And so that violence, that local violence,
00:18:54
Speaker
can be averted through stronger relationships.
00:18:58
Speaker
And sometimes it's just a matter of a small degree, ensuring that people feel heard rather than not heard.
00:19:03
Speaker
Ensuring people feel a small degree of trust with you rather than none.
00:19:09
Speaker
Those things matter.
00:19:10
Speaker
So that's something that school leaders can do.
00:19:12
Speaker
And also, of course, and I've heard you say this in your podcast as well, the work that we want teachers to be doing with students, we need to be doing and modeling at the level of the faculty groups and the faculty meetings.
00:19:23
Speaker
And so walking the walk and talking the talk has to happen at the level of faculty conversation as well.
00:19:28
Speaker
And school leaders have among their most important responsibilities, determining who meets when and what the meeting agenda will be.
00:19:36
Speaker
Even if you've got a distributed leadership structure, you still have a great deal of ultimate responsibility for what the professional conversation is about.
00:19:44
Speaker
And so you need to decide what you have space and time for in your annual meeting agendas.
00:19:49
Speaker
or your three-year or five-year plan and make the space that needs to be had for these kinds of conversations as they intersect with the work.
00:19:58
Speaker
You can learn from each other and learn from mistakes and model the risk-taking that's involved in creating dialogue in a time of polarization.
Conferences on Education and Social Justice
00:20:09
Speaker
Conference to Restore Humanity is an invitation for K-12 and college educators to engage in a human-centered system reboot, centering the needs of students and educators toward a praxis of social justice.
00:20:22
Speaker
The traditional conference format doesn't work for everyone.
00:20:25
Speaker
It's costly to attend, environmentally unfriendly, and it doesn't allow everyone to engage or have a voice in the learning community.
00:20:33
Speaker
Our conference is designed around the accessibility and sustainability of virtual learning while engaging participants in a classroom environment that models the same progressive pedagogy we value with students.
00:20:44
Speaker
Instead of long Zoom presentations with a brief Q&A, keynotes are flipped.
00:20:49
Speaker
And attendees will have the opportunity for extended conversation with our speakers, Dr. Henry Giroux, the founding theorist of critical pedagogy, Dr. Denisha Jones, educator, activist, and co-editor of Black Lives Matter at School, and the Circle Keepers from Harvest Collegiate High School in New York City, a student collective focused on social justice.
00:21:10
Speaker
And instead of back-to-back online workshops, we are offering asynchronous learning tracks.
00:21:15
Speaker
You can engage with the content and the community at any time on topics like anti-carceral pedagogy, disrupting linguistic discrimination, designing for neurodivergence, promoting childism in the classroom, and supporting feedback over grades.
00:21:30
Speaker
The Conference to Restore Humanity runs July 25th through the 28th.
00:21:34
Speaker
And as of recording, early bird tickets are still available.
00:21:38
Speaker
It's $150 for four days with discounts available for individuals from historically marginalized communities as well as group rates.
00:21:46
Speaker
Plus, we'll award certificates for teacher training and continuing education credits.
00:21:51
Speaker
See our website humanrestorationproject.org for more information and let's restore humanity together.
00:22:02
Speaker
It sounds like you're just very much breaking down those barriers to learning, but also breaking down the barriers, just a general dialogue to help people learn from one another.
00:22:13
Speaker
It makes me think about, this is kind of like a question on how to navigate this ecosystem.
00:22:19
Speaker
How do you navigate or rationalize between understanding the need for communication, the ability to empathize, kind of having dialogue across the aisle, while also knowing where that line is, where it's like, hey, I can't have a dialogue about this.
00:22:39
Speaker
This is the dividing line.
00:22:41
Speaker
But then I also think about how far that line's been pushed in recent years.
00:22:47
Speaker
At what point does the dialogue just break down and then we just don't know what to do?
00:22:51
Speaker
We need a mixture of vigilance and curiosity as we approach the conversations about who we are as communities, about what we should be learning, about the welfare of our kids.
00:23:00
Speaker
We need a combination of vigilance and curiosity because we
00:23:03
Speaker
The hate speech is there.
00:23:05
Speaker
The derision is there.
00:23:07
Speaker
The threats and the intimidation, the fear, all of those tropes are there.
00:23:11
Speaker
And so we need to be vigilant about not allowing them in...
00:23:16
Speaker
in these spaces of work and in these spaces of child rearing.
00:23:19
Speaker
At the same time, I guess I would continue to say that there's almost always a place for someone on the team to continue to have a dialogue with the person who holds harmful or potentially harmful views.
00:23:32
Speaker
And I've had disagreements with other progressive educators about this.
00:23:36
Speaker
I remember a recent...
00:23:39
Speaker
Not so recent, but there was a teacher who was called out by a state representative for something that a parent had told the state representative was happening in that teacher's classroom.
00:23:49
Speaker
And the teacher was emoting, seeking some camaraderie and solidarity with others about this on Twitter.
00:23:58
Speaker
And so there was some dialogue of support for this teacher on Twitter.
00:24:01
Speaker
And there was then another state representative weighed in, actually, because she started to see the conversation and said she was going to pursue sanctions for this other state representative for what he had said about the teacher, which had been reported to him by a parent.
00:24:16
Speaker
My first contribution was to ask the teacher what their principal's stance was or what their principal was doing to support them.
00:24:22
Speaker
Because I'm curious, like, is the principal moving towards
00:24:25
Speaker
these community members to engage them in conversation.
00:24:28
Speaker
And then when I saw the tweets about how the state senator was going to be sanctioned at the state house, potentially for what he was doing, I again said that while that may be in order, I still have the hope that there might be some diet or triad of dialogue between the stakeholders in this community as part of this problem solving.
00:24:49
Speaker
And one person replied back to me and said, you know, I just don't think calling in always works.
00:24:54
Speaker
And sometimes you just can't validate ideas by engaging in dialogue about them.
00:25:00
Speaker
My perspective is slightly different.
00:25:01
Speaker
I would certainly say that in classrooms, in our hallways, in our public spaces, there's certain speech that can't be tolerated.
00:25:10
Speaker
And we have laws that require that we not tolerate it, bullying and harassment,
00:25:15
Speaker
laws and policies and procedures are there for us to lean on as we must.
00:25:20
Speaker
But my perspective is that if someone is perpetuating racist speech in my community,
00:25:27
Speaker
if I can engage them in dialogue, it may keep them from doing more harm.
00:25:31
Speaker
It's not about validating their delusion.
00:25:34
Speaker
It's about keeping that delusion from doing more damage because I'm an educator.
00:25:38
Speaker
Part of my job is to like figure out people's motivations and find ways through inquiry, the sharing of stories, personal stories and historical facts to shift
Addressing Racial Tensions and Extremism
00:25:47
Speaker
mindsets.
00:25:47
Speaker
That's what we're doing as educators.
00:25:49
Speaker
So there's really no better people qualified perhaps for this kind of work.
00:25:54
Speaker
You know, a parent came to a soccer game
00:25:56
Speaker
And after the soccer game, it was a really tense soccer game between two rival teams, the school that I was at and our neighboring school.
00:26:04
Speaker
And it was like 0-0 for like the whole game.
00:26:07
Speaker
And then it went into overtime and it was still 0-0.
00:26:09
Speaker
So like there was this huge like energy that was never released.
00:26:12
Speaker
There was never sort of like, you know, some outcome of the game.
00:26:14
Speaker
I guess what I'm saying is the tensions persisted as my team was moving on their way into the building.
00:26:19
Speaker
And the other players are getting into their cars and trucks and trying to leave the parking lot and their paths were crossing the trucks and my school's players.
00:26:27
Speaker
And there were some students who were black and other kids of color on the team.
00:26:32
Speaker
And the kid in his truck leaned out and said, move and toss the N word out at our students.
00:26:38
Speaker
And I could hear from across the parking lot that there was some tension.
00:26:41
Speaker
I didn't quite know what it was about.
00:26:42
Speaker
I ran over.
00:26:43
Speaker
The mom in this car also said, move and use the same N-word towards the students in our school.
00:26:50
Speaker
So I did my best to de-escalate that situation in the moment.
00:26:53
Speaker
And then I gave the mother a no trespass order.
00:26:55
Speaker
She was not going to come back on school grounds.
00:26:58
Speaker
I had to use my authority to be vigilant to ensure that that kind of harm was not going to happen again.
00:27:03
Speaker
on school grounds, worked with the police, they delivered the no trespass order.
00:27:07
Speaker
At the same time though, I also asked her if she would meet with me to talk about what happened.
00:27:14
Speaker
And she refused or she declined, but I still felt like that was within my capacity to do.
00:27:19
Speaker
I can be vigilant, but I can also be curious.
00:27:22
Speaker
And that's the kind of stance that we will see in a lot of resources that are being produced these days to help people with the potential radicalization of youth.
00:27:31
Speaker
I'm thinking of resources from the Western State Center, the Polarization and Extremism Research Innovation Lab at American University and the Southern Poverty Law Center.
00:27:40
Speaker
They're producing toolkits for educators and caregivers to help in this moment of polarization.
00:27:46
Speaker
with what you do when you hear conspiracy theories or what you do when you hear humor that just isn't that funny because it actually has racist or misogynist undertones.
00:27:56
Speaker
What do we do in those cases?
00:27:58
Speaker
And what you'll see in these toolkits, like this one I have right here, Confronting Conspiracy Theories and Organized Bigotry at Home, A Guide for Parents and Caregivers from the Western State Center.
00:28:07
Speaker
It's also good for teachers and administrators.
00:28:10
Speaker
You'll see a mix of vigilance and curiosity there.
00:28:13
Speaker
Ensuring that you're not shaming the young person for holding certain ideas, but you're yet being vigilant in ensuring they understand that they're not appropriate or that they're harmful.
00:28:22
Speaker
So that's a stance that administrators can take and model as we engage in dialogue spaces in a time of significant division.
eSports and Online Behavior
00:28:32
Speaker
I appreciate the framing of vigilant but curious.
00:28:35
Speaker
It reminds me of I was the eSports coach and the curriculum on eSports from like the National Foundation of Collegiate eSports, whatever it is, is all based around social emotional learning with a heavy focus on tolerance, like online tolerance and anti-bullying and harassment.
00:28:52
Speaker
I was always shocked by doing these lessons that were all framed around like, you know, is this funny?
00:28:58
Speaker
Did you share this meme?
00:29:00
Speaker
Just kind of like run of the mill internet stuff.
00:29:03
Speaker
How,
00:29:05
Speaker
Deep those conversations quickly became once we started talking about the implications of racism and sexism and tolerance with young people and how insightful they were.
00:29:16
Speaker
The same people who were the ones proliferating these things, sharing them online, posting them on Discord, wherever it might be.
00:29:22
Speaker
We're also the same exact people who could open up and say like, yeah, I recognize the harm in this at this level and kind of deconstructing it with them to the point where they would leave that class kind of questioning whether or not it was okay or not.
00:29:34
Speaker
Now, I don't know.
00:29:35
Speaker
They still might be doing those things.
00:29:37
Speaker
But at least in the back of their mind, there is something there that could be channeled towards something for good later on.
00:29:43
Speaker
which I think is a pretty normal part of growing up.
00:29:46
Speaker
I think most people when they're an adolescent have done things they're not super proud of, where as we got older, we reflect on those things with hopefully some kind of mentor to guide us to channel that into something for good.
00:29:56
Speaker
So I totally understand this path you're winding down to tell these stories and then turn that into
00:30:02
Speaker
something that's useful.
00:30:04
Speaker
So let's talk about that for a second in terms of this curriculum that is being built out of this book and then kind of your work at large and what would be like a healthy rebellion.
Curriculum for Empowerment and Expression
00:30:14
Speaker
It starts with designing curriculum with the needs of young people, their families, and the community and the broader society in mind.
00:30:23
Speaker
Oftentimes, we educators will think about relevance, like we want our curriculum to be relevant and engaging.
00:30:29
Speaker
So what is relevance?
00:30:30
Speaker
Oftentimes we think about relevance as mapping to interest and it certainly does, and it certainly can, but if there's a deeper level, if you ask a young person what they're interested in, you'll get things that they're interested in, that may be very engaging for them, but it also risks being somewhat temporary and fleeting, or at least it risks not mapping to a deeper need in some ways.
00:30:52
Speaker
So, but if we ask ourselves and we ask our young people about their needs, about their basic needs,
00:30:57
Speaker
we're bound to discover because we don't live in a perfect society, because we live in actually a society where there's tremendous injustice, we're asking about our needs, we're bound to discover unfairness and injustice that needs to be understood.
00:31:13
Speaker
And if we can awaken, not that it needs to be awakened, if we can tap into the ideological powers of young people to identify and call out what is not fair,
00:31:25
Speaker
and then ask them what needs to change in their world, then we'll be on our way towards healthy rebellion.
00:31:32
Speaker
It's not about every class being necessarily about public policy, but it is about teachers having an awareness that all of our work, all of what we do and all of how we live has a policy context to some degree.
00:31:48
Speaker
That said,
00:31:49
Speaker
If I think about the young people who took the microphone and took to the streets after the terrible massacre in Parkland, Florida, those young people had in part been in classes, some of them in AP history classes, where they studied gun policy and regulation.
00:32:05
Speaker
But they'd also been in the arts.
00:32:07
Speaker
They'd also been in theater.
00:32:09
Speaker
They'd also tapped into the powers of self-expression and finding voice in other ways.
00:32:14
Speaker
So these young people were equipped with all kinds of skills, knowledge, and dispositions to become leaders.
00:32:20
Speaker
Some of them very public activists, and I'm sure others behind the scenes leading in different ways.
00:32:24
Speaker
So the curriculum in all kinds of ways was
00:32:27
Speaker
When we orient things towards authentic audiences, when we orient the work towards public presentation of work, when we orient the work towards doing things that the community needs doing, we're giving young people the skills they need to build a better world.
00:32:41
Speaker
That said, it can certainly help, even though it's risky, for the teacher to be asking very specific questions that hone in on the policies that need changing.
00:32:53
Speaker
It sounds like too that you could use the arts as a way to balance talking about things at school that could be traumatic or maybe so deep that it's uncomfortable with also having like a more, I don't want to say shallow because it's not shallow, but just like an emotional healing process because we're also dealing with a space that's
00:33:17
Speaker
I don't know if that's the best way to frame it from a pandemic.
00:33:20
Speaker
Still kind of ongoing pandemic along with the various school shootings, racist atrocities.
00:33:28
Speaker
It seems like every other week there's a new thing happening.
00:33:32
Speaker
that young people are dealing with that they have to heal from, that they've been able to get through.
00:33:36
Speaker
And I would imagine that there's, in addition to a space for channeling that anger, also a space for just like, let's just have fun together and play and like be kids.
00:33:47
Speaker
Where does that fit into like this?
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's super, it's super important.
00:33:52
Speaker
And the book doesn't stress that perhaps enough.
00:33:56
Speaker
The importance of play, the importance of extracurricular life at the school,
00:34:00
Speaker
It's hugely important.
00:34:01
Speaker
And I think the book doesn't discuss that enough.
00:34:05
Speaker
The importance of play, the importance of athletics, the importance of the arts as a means to find one's voice, to find belonging, especially if the mentorship and the coaching is mature and healthy adults doing the work for good reasons.
00:34:21
Speaker
Those aspects of schooling and childhood are hugely, hugely important.
00:34:26
Speaker
I'm going to paraphrase here.
00:34:27
Speaker
You had sent out a thing on social media, on Twitter the other week about, I want to say, and this is sad that I have to say this, I want to say this was a response to the Buffalo shooting, where obviously a young person with incredibly racist views went and murdered people in a mass shooting spree.
00:34:46
Speaker
And you had something akin to the idea of, you know, this was a kid that was in classrooms.
Understanding Young Mass Shooters
00:34:53
Speaker
And what kind of is drawn from that are what are the implications for classroom educators or for schools and systems and classroom leaders to the fact that so many mass shooters are either high school age or like just graduated from high school.
00:35:08
Speaker
How do we talk about that?
00:35:09
Speaker
How do we even like begin the discussion of something that is so traumatic and horrifying?
00:35:16
Speaker
Because you don't want to blame teachers.
00:35:18
Speaker
You wouldn't want to sit there and go like, oh, you know, these teachers failed this kid because it's so much deeper than that.
00:35:24
Speaker
But at the exact same time, there is space, as you were just talking about with the resources that you mentioned.
00:35:30
Speaker
to help de-radicalize kids because it's not necessarily this happening in school.
00:35:34
Speaker
It's usually happening online.
00:35:36
Speaker
So where do we start there?
00:35:37
Speaker
What does that look like?
00:35:38
Speaker
Yeah, you're absolutely right to say that educators don't need another dose of blame or shame, especially in the wake of something of that nature.
00:35:47
Speaker
And I know the feeling of failure that one can have when you realize you haven't understood a child's pain or aggression or their likelihood to do violence to someone else.
00:35:58
Speaker
We had two boys removed from our school a bunch of years ago, and they were gone for a full year before we were able to get around to some restorative process to bring them back.
00:36:08
Speaker
They were gone because the police and their families and state agencies had decided that they were planning something terrible for the school.
00:36:18
Speaker
And the sense of failure among the educators who felt we knew these boys from middle school up into early high school years was profound.
00:36:26
Speaker
That said, do we want to feel like we matter in the world or not?
00:36:30
Speaker
We want to feel like we matter.
00:36:31
Speaker
So if I'm an educator and I matter, I
00:36:34
Speaker
then what I do in school is shaping a young person to some degree or another.
00:36:38
Speaker
So as much as I can, I want to shape them in the right direction.
00:36:42
Speaker
So this boy who killed 10 black people in Buffalo, he was a writer.
00:36:50
Speaker
His manifesto is more than a hundred pages long.
00:36:53
Speaker
He has things to say about race, nationhood, identity.
00:36:58
Speaker
He has things to say about these matters.
00:37:01
Speaker
And so on, you know, and I don't know the school, so this is a very superficial judgment.
00:37:06
Speaker
But if one compares the degree to which this young person is writing and thinking about race and nationhood and identity, compare it to the course catalog for that school.
00:37:17
Speaker
I downloaded the course catalog.
00:37:18
Speaker
I've started to do this after these mass shootings.
00:37:21
Speaker
I just want to know what high schools these young men have attended.
00:37:25
Speaker
And then I do, and again, it's a superficial exercise, but I think it's indicative of something about the leadership of the school and about what the community values.
00:37:35
Speaker
Download the course catalog, word search democracy.
00:37:39
Speaker
It appears once,
00:37:40
Speaker
in a 50 to 60 page high school course catalog.
00:37:42
Speaker
It's a US history survey course, democracy's mentioned once.
00:37:46
Speaker
All right, let me search for freedom.
00:37:48
Speaker
This young person wants to talk about these things.
00:37:51
Speaker
Freedom comes up once in this 50 to 60 page course catalog.
00:37:56
Speaker
It's an art class.
00:37:57
Speaker
The teacher is talking about how students will have the freedom of determining their materials or final projects.
00:38:01
Speaker
So it's not about, not freedom in a political sense.
00:38:06
Speaker
Search for the word race or racism.
00:38:09
Speaker
How many times has that word come up in the course catalog?
00:38:11
Speaker
Zero times.
00:38:13
Speaker
Not once is the word race or racism mentioned in a comprehensive high school's course catalog here in the United States.
00:38:20
Speaker
That's the school this kid went to.
00:38:22
Speaker
So we have to take on some responsibility for holding these conversations, which are of essential and indeed life or death importance to our country.
00:38:32
Speaker
And we have to recognize that we educators, and I also should say, Chris, that I, after 16 years as a principal, I've stepped away and I'm now working with people who are becoming principals.
00:38:44
Speaker
So I can't claim to be
00:38:46
Speaker
in schools the same way I was last year.
00:38:48
Speaker
And I know that other educators who are listening to this may want or need to know that.
00:38:52
Speaker
But my sense of what we're striving for now as educators, whether we're in schools or supporting educators outside of schools, is that we need to be striving for coalition and solidarity.
00:39:04
Speaker
Our sense of success needs to shift a little bit from whatever it was maybe when we started our careers, like what we thought we were going to be able to achieve
00:39:11
Speaker
The goal actually is solidarity in the work.
00:39:14
Speaker
The goal actually is sustaining in this struggle for a more just democracy.
00:39:19
Speaker
And that's going to be achieved in small and big ways day to day, sometimes just by like having a shoulder to cry on from somebody who's there to support you.
00:39:28
Speaker
There's a different mentality, I think, that educators need today as we enter into this work.
Coalition and Solidarity in Education
00:39:34
Speaker
And it's certainly not to reproduce school that we knew most of us as young people 10 or 20 years ago.
00:39:41
Speaker
It's something different and it has to do with solidarity and coalition and keeping the needs of our democracy in the foreground and knowing that that depends upon our ability to get personal, get political, combine our personal stories with historical facts in ways that build our sense of what's true, that can guide us towards what is right and what needs doing.
00:40:03
Speaker
The framing of being able to make a difference, I think, is a very positive way to look at that in the sense that we know that the reason why these things occur is the result of many failed systems, whether it be gun control, mental health,
00:40:23
Speaker
school there's so many different things that go into this but knowing that an individual educator can at least attempt through ability that they have to make things better I think is powerful I think it's the reason why people become teachers is they want to make a difference and they want to help people and a lot of times it's
00:40:42
Speaker
super uncomfortable.
00:40:43
Speaker
It is uncomfortable to have those conversations at times.
00:40:46
Speaker
I was a social studies teacher and a lot of what I did in the classroom was open dialogue, like Socratic seminars, talking about current events.
00:40:55
Speaker
And you would hear students express things that were highly uncomfortable, especially I taught at a nine-minute school.
00:41:01
Speaker
So we had students that were
00:41:04
Speaker
working class, upper class, conservative, liberal, students who identified in various ways and students that rejected those identities in various ways.
00:41:12
Speaker
And many times students would say things, sometimes without even recognizing, that were highly offensive.
00:41:18
Speaker
And
00:41:19
Speaker
And navigating that as a teacher at times was traumatizing.
00:41:24
Speaker
Like it was like people would do things and you're like, that made me feel terrible knowing that like I had to hear that.
00:41:29
Speaker
And of course we attempt to work through that, but it's, it's a lot of work.
00:41:32
Speaker
It takes a lot of mental effort.
00:41:34
Speaker
I just convened a group of folks over the last couple of months.
00:41:37
Speaker
We called it the Strong Schools Dialogue Series.
00:41:39
Speaker
And we were trying to, we actually looked ahead to the 2024 election, indeed, January 2025.
00:41:44
Speaker
And, you know, imagining, unfortunately, that maybe something else like what happened will happen again in terms of a contested election, in terms of like a very divided election.
00:41:56
Speaker
American people and wondering what can we do in the next couple of years to prepare our schools for 2024-25?
00:42:03
Speaker
What can we do to keep our schools strong such that we're committed to having these conversations?
00:42:08
Speaker
We're not just keeping it superficial.
00:42:11
Speaker
We're not avoiding the hard topics, but we're doing it in an even more careful way where we can support each other in it.
00:42:19
Speaker
And we came up with three recommendations.
00:42:21
Speaker
And one of them was about what we called slow instruction, like Socratic seminar, like a very, like the days are gone.
00:42:28
Speaker
I think where like maybe when I was in high school where the social studies teacher might say, oh, you know what?
00:42:33
Speaker
Let's have a debate today.
00:42:34
Speaker
You know, or like, let's have a discussion about this instead.
00:42:37
Speaker
Like, I think that, you know, that may be well-intentioned and perhaps appropriate, like, but maybe somewhat impulsive shift towards having whole class dialogue now.
00:42:46
Speaker
needs to be approached much differently.
00:42:48
Speaker
Unless you've gotten months and months of creating that safe space, you really need to plan.
00:42:53
Speaker
You need to plan for four weeks to have two days of student-to-student dialogue.
00:42:58
Speaker
It's a different context, but we can still do it if we're careful.
00:43:05
Speaker
The other thing I was going to say about making a difference, Chris, is I'm remembering a teacher who came into my office and closed the door
00:43:11
Speaker
And this was a teacher who had worked with students with emotional disabilities and learning disabilities.
00:43:16
Speaker
And she, you know, came with an activist kind of orientation, you know, like her, she just went the extra mile for these young people and their families.
00:43:24
Speaker
And for years and years and years and years, she got them to the finish line, you know, like they graduated.
00:43:30
Speaker
Maybe it was five years, maybe it was six years, maybe it was in the regular four years, maybe it was through an alternative program, maybe it was this or that, but like they graduated.
00:43:37
Speaker
And now she's starting to notice things were going in a different direction.
00:43:40
Speaker
Oh, there's that kid.
00:43:42
Speaker
And the addiction issues, or there's that kid and they're living in a trailer with a parent and livestock.
00:43:50
Speaker
Or there's this kid who's homeless, or there's this kid whose father has such extraordinary paranoia and there's so many guns in the house and he's just so anxious every day.
00:43:59
Speaker
Like the list was long of kids that she was realizing might not actually graduate for all of her efforts and ours.
00:44:06
Speaker
There is a risk that that teacher would leave the profession because actually making a difference in the same way she was used to is actually
Adapting Educational Goals and Conclusion
00:44:13
Speaker
getting harder.
00:44:13
Speaker
And it's only going to get harder, Chris.
00:44:15
Speaker
Like our society is not on an upward swing when it comes to like meeting the basic needs of the broad populace.
00:44:22
Speaker
We just need to reshift how we calibrate success.
00:44:25
Speaker
And again, one thing that made the difference for that teacher, I think, to help her persist in her career, even though it's kind of taking a different path now, but she's persisting in the work, is in part because of the sense of solidarity she had with other people in the work, but it's also because...
00:44:40
Speaker
She started to teach a bit more about the policy context, about racism in our society, past and present.
00:44:47
Speaker
She started to bring an analysis of the forces that were destroying these families' lives into the work.
00:44:55
Speaker
Because if it's just about the individual child and helping them overcome insurmountable odds without interrogating those odds and trying to change them from a policy perspective, the work will start to feel like Sisyphus's rock.
00:45:08
Speaker
But if we can start to understand where this mountain come from, who built this mountain that we're rolling this rock up,
00:45:14
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:45:15
Speaker
It's those people.
00:45:16
Speaker
It's this political class allied with these corporate oligarchs, allied with a cowardly media that are actually passively and actively conspiring to build an insurmountable mountain that only ends in a cliff for so many families.
00:45:30
Speaker
But solidarity with others in the work and turning our attention both on the individual needs and the society in which they live and bringing that into the curriculum is
00:45:38
Speaker
is actually part of sustaining ourselves as educators, because we'll find hope in each of those three things.
00:45:49
Speaker
Thank you again for listening to Human Restoration Project's podcast.
00:45:52
Speaker
I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to push the progressive envelope of education.
00:45:56
Speaker
You can learn more about progressive education, support our cause, and stay tuned to this podcast and other updates on our website at humanrestorationproject.org.