How do you define creativity?

Would you be able to spot creativity in the wild?

What about creativity in the classroom?

This endless human quest to define the seemingly undefinable, and somehow make it useful for educators, is what today’s guests Tom Rendon and Zachary Stier set out to do, bringing together philosophy, neuroscience, and site visits, in a years-long collaboration that became Creativity in Young Children: What Science Tells Us and Our Hearts Know [https://www.redleafpress.org/Creativity-in-Young-Children-What-Science-Tells-Us-and-Our-Hearts-Know-P3101.aspx].

In this conversation, Tom and Zach help me understand the counterintuitive ways creativity shows up in the world, in the human condition, and how we can cultivate creativity and connection in the classroom.

Cultivating Creativity and Connection in the Classroom w/ Tom Rendon & Zachary Stier

Most of us probably experienced a homogenous version of literacy in our English classes: read a book, answer a few questions along the way, and compose an essay at the end about how we viewed a key theme. Rinse and repeat. And in our current age of high-stakes testing and high-stakes literacy, some kids are lucky to ever encounter a book at all; however, those same students are also surrounded by the narratives and themes of English class - in the messages they send and receive and the virtual communities they participate in, the media they consume and discuss with their friends, and in the video games they play. The goal of my guests today is to expand our vision of what that English class could be and induct students into something of an animistic perspective of literacy, as you heard from one guest in the opening: that the narratives and themes of English class are everywhere for those equipped to see them as such. Their Reader-Player Interactivity Framework [https://drive.google.com/file/d/13UPvHceKUbhSYlw_1AOfN0moTjacJnhm/view?usp=sharing]aims to give teachers and students the tools and confidence to do just that. Their paper, linked in the show notes, is a collaboration between Karis Jones, Brady Nash, Virginia Killian Lund, Scott Storm, Alex Corbitt, Beth Krone, and Trevor Aleo, of which Karis, Brady, Virginia, and Trevor joined me for this conversation.

Article: The Reader-Player Interactivity Framework: How Do Readers Navigate Diverse Varieties of Narrative Texts? [https://drive.google.com/file/d/13UPvHceKUbhSYlw_1AOfN0moTjacJnhm/view?usp=sharing]

Unsilencing Gratia [https://digthisbird.itch.io/unsilencing-gratia]: a tabletop RPG book designed to be an easy introduction to collaborative storytelling, usable in a classroom setting.

We Know Something You Don’t Know [https://virginialund.itch.io/we-know-something-you-dont-know]: a tabletop RPG that invites you into the lives of students making their way day-by-day through the education system.

You can reach any of our guests by email:

Trevor Aleo: aleotc@gmail.com [<aleotc@gmail.com>]

Karis Jones: karis.michelle.jones@gmail.com [<karis.michelle.jones@gmail.com>]

Virginia Killian Lund: vkillianlund@uri.edu [<vkillianlund@uri.edu>]

Brady Nash: bradylnash@gmail.com [<bradylnash@gmail.com>]

Are we Reader or are we Player? w/ Karis Jones, Virginia Killian Lund, Brady Nash, and Trevor Aleo

We’re recording this episode the week the Iowa DOGE Task Force released their final 136 page report – you heard that right, that’s the state-level version of the Department of Government Efficiency convened by our governor back in February, tasked with maximizing return on investment of Iowa taxpayer dollars.

As you can imagine, among their recommendations are ideas from the Return on Taxpayer Investment Working Group about improving education results “aimed at delivering greater value for taxpayers.”

Fortunately for Iowans, this working group assembled a crack team of experienced education experts for the job, including the CEO of an ethanol plant, the former Chair of the Iowa Racing and Gaming Commission, and the chair of a civil engineering firm. Among their recommendations are to:

"Establish a merit-based compensation framework –including a bonus structure, teacher professional development and incentives for those in high-need schools in order to improve student outcomes and financially reward high-performing teachers.”

Merit-pay is of course a tried, tested, and failed idea. But teacher salaries are just one thread in the complex tapestry of how states pay for public education and the ideological tug of war in our public debates over school funding – how we pay for buildings, pensions, special education, Title 1, school food programs…every cost that goes into making schooling work…or not.

If the Iowa DOGE report and the policy agenda that will inevitably follow could be titled As Privatized as Possible – doubling down on outcome-based school funding and accountability measures and even recommending AI-based bus route optimization to “cut costs and improve service”...what’s the alternative?

My guest today asks, “What would it mean to democratize school resources? What would it mean to have truly public schools, down to the very means of resource creation and distribution that fuels them…what will it take to make school as public as possible.”

It’s also the title of his upcoming book, As Public as Possible: Radical Finance for America’s Public Schools out this December. You can preorder it now from The New Press.

David Backer is the author. He’s an associate professor of education policy at Seton Hall University whose research, teaching, and organizing focus on ideology and school finance. A former high school teacher, his research has appeared in a half dozen scholarly journals like the Harvard Education Review  as well as popular venues like The American Prospect and Jacobin. And you can find him on social media @schooldaves.

As Public As Possible (The New Press) [https://thenewpress.org/books/as-public-as-possible/?v=eb65bcceaa5f]

@SchoolDaves TikTok [https://www.tiktok.com/@schooldaves]

Making School Finance As Public As Possible w/ David I. Backer

When I sat down with James Mannion to talk about the educational polycrisis back in July, his long-time colleague, friend, and collaborator Kate McAllister was right there by his side. After the recording, Kate & I spent a long time catching up about her work and its intersection with our own, and we immediately vowed to remember to hit record the next time we chatted.

Kate McAllister is both a co-founder of The Human Hive and the founder of The Hive in Cabrera, a school for ChangeMakers in the Dominican Republic, where she joined me from for this conversation. Kate has over 20 years' teaching experience and has spent much of that time training and developing teachers and educators all over the world. She is a passionate educator, published author, fellow of the Chartered College of Teachers and The RSA. The Hive, founded back in 2020, is Kate's answer to the question "what if?" What if learning could be different? What if we did education with not for others? What if we can become more self-determined in our learning? What if education can help regenerate the planet?

And as you’ll hear in this episode, Kate’s personal and educational journey is a remarkable reflection of her dedication to the fully human messiness of growing and learning in community with others.

The Human Hive [https://www.thehumanhive.org/]



The Buzz About the Human Hive w/ Kate McAllister

Today’s episode is Dr. Sarah Fine’s keynote, the Quest for Authenticity: Lessons in Powerful Learning from the Fringes, from our Conference to Restore Humanity back in July of this year.

As Dr. Fine argues, the limits of our grammar of schooling and the metaphors we use to think about teaching and learning are constraining, but there is nothing inevitable or inherent about them. This is the throughline in her observation of co-constructed and collaborative humanized learning spaces, where inevitability gives way to possibility predominates.

Not only is it possible to change the grammar of schooling, but that humanizing grammar already exists within even the most traditionally structured school, Sarah argues, in electives, clubs, and extracurriculars, in the periphery. These spaces, she points out, offer “the hallmarks of a learner-centered system: trust, safety, & authentic care, where learners and educators codesign coursework.” As Sarah and her co-author Jal Mehta urge in their 2019 book, In Search of Deeper Learning, “We need to change student learning, so we need to change schools, so we need to change systems.”

Video version on the Human Restoration Project YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3YUbFh5y3k]

Q&A w/ Dr. Sarah Fine [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSsfx0Xoje4]

Lessons in Powerful Learning from the Fringes w/ Dr. Sarah Fine

The reach and impact of our food systems – that is, the complex, interconnected, and globalized web of institutions, resources, and processes that bring food from the farm, to the table, and into the waste stream – is universal: every single one of us has either worked in ourselves, or known people who work growing, raising, producing, processing, packing, transporting, preparing, or serving the food we all eat.

In the food we consume, we become connected to the conditions, the labor, and the people of the food system that produces it. Fully 1 in 10 American workers, over 17 million people, work in paid frontline food system jobs. And millions more work at home to plan, shop, prepare, and in many households, grow the food their children and families eat.

There are massive implications for schools as well, as they participate in the food system directly to bring literally billions of meals to children each year, and as labor in the food system impacts the families, children, and communities our schools serve.

My guests today are Laura-Anne Minkoff-Zern and Teresa M. Mares, associate professors and co-authors of Will Work for Food: Labor Across the Food Chain, available from University of California Press in September. Their book captures the grim realities faced by food workers alongside the opportunities for solidarity at every point in the system while amplifying the successes and challenges faced by movements to make food work, good work.

“As long as people are suffering to get food to our plates,” they write, “we need to center food workers in any vision for a just food system.”

Will Work for Food book from UC Press [https://www.ucpress.edu/books/will-work-for-food/paper]

Will Work for Food: Labor Across the Food Chain w/ Laura-Anne Minkoff-Zern & Teresa M. Mares

Please note that Human Restoration Project is a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization and that this interview is not an endorsement of Morales as a candidate for office.

Before Howie Morales became Lieutenant Governor of New Mexico, before he was ever a state senator, he was a teacher and a state-championship winning baseball coach in rural New Mexico. He also holds a Master’s in bilingual education and a doctorate in curriculum and instruction. So it’d be difficult, it seems, to understand what he’s accomplished in those elected positions except through the lens of his experience in the classroom. And he joins me to talk about that experience, how it informs his work and achievements in office, and the challenges New Mexico public school students, families, and teachers still face.

From the Classroom to the Capitol: A Conversation w/ New Mexico Lt. Gov. Howie Morales

In the opening pages of my guest’s book, she recounts a colleague's bumpy plane ride that provided the insight for the title of the book, Taming the Turbulence in Educational Leadership: “We are facing turmoil in education, and the job of good leaders is to 'tame the turbulence'...educators have been caught in this turbulence; it permeates our profession and we haven't been able to get above it. As a result, it is the role of leaders to help teachers see how even small, simple shifts can change a child’s experience of school.”

Rooted in real-world stories, Taming the Turbulence offers solidarity and actionable strategies to education leaders committed to centering the needs of all learners in increasingly polarized societies.

And the author, Jennifer D. Klein, is an experienced educator and advocate for student-centered, experiential learning as a catalyst for positive social change. With two-decades of classroom teaching across a number of diverse international settings, as a teacher in Costa Rica and a school leader in Colombia, she now focuses on inspiring and training educators worldwide, working with groups like  What School Could Be, The Institution for International Education, and The Buck Institute. Her previous books include The Global Education Guidebook: Humanizing K–12 Classrooms Worldwide Through Equitable Partnerships and The Landscape Model of Learning: Designing Student-Centered Experiences for Cognitive and Cultural Inclusion, coauthored with Kapono Ciotti, who we spoke with about that work back in episode 159.

You can connect with Jennifer at principledlearning.org [https://zencastr.com/preview/episode/68b24e6c1a00b16b37940368]

Taming the Turbulence in Educational Leadership [https://www.corwin.com/books/taming-turbulence-ed-leadership-291724?srsltid=AfmBOoq4usON1WKOyXwtu3I2q_R74lFG6ZdTSQr5EV_PLn6doOGXRCf3#main-content] from Corwin

Taming the Turbulence in Educational Leadership w/ Jennifer D. Klein

“Any assessment of the potential of AI to contribute to education must begin with an accurate understanding of the nature of the outputs of AI,” my guests today write, “The most important reason to resist the use of AI in universities if that its outputs are fundamentally bullshit – indeed, strictly speaking, they are meaningless bullshit.”

That particular term of art may appear to be attention-seeking or dismissive of the issue of AI entirely, but it’s actually the root of a much deeper philosophical critique, like the late anthropologist David Graeber’s notion of “bullshit jobs”, but leveled at Generative AI and the way it distorts the purpose and function of teaching, learning, and education itself. My guests today are Robert Sparrow and Gene Flenady, professor and lecturer, respectively, in philosophy at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia, where they join me from, and they are collaborators on two recent articles: Bullshit universities: the future of automated education and Cut the bullshit: why Generative AI systems are neither collaborators nor tutors. As a heads up, we’re gonna be saying bullshit a LOT, sometimes in an academic context, sometimes not so much.

Bullshit universities: the future of automated education [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-025-02340-8]

Cut the bullshit: why GenAI systems are neither collaborators nor tutors [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13562517.2025.2497263]

BS Universities: The Future of Automated Education w/ Rob Sparrow & Gene Flenady

Back in December 2024, I got an email from Tom Rademacher raving about an upcoming book from a teacher who is now a licensed counselor that read, “The thing that hooked me when I read it the first time was a whole part on teachers recognizing their own triggers to their anger and stress and learning to understand and adapt to them... but the whole thing is gorgeous.” The author was of course my guest today, Maria Munro-Schuster, and the book, which is now in print, is The Empathetic Classroom: How A Mental Health Mindset Supports Your Students – And You, which the HRP team was more than thrilled to contribute the forward:

“The Empathetic Classroom provides therapeutic self-reflection activities and prompts for educators and colleagues, the psychological theories underpinning them, guidance for applying them with students, and scalable activities for classroom implementation. Maria Munro-Schuster’s call to consider the mundane over measurement is essential in improving the current state of education. This proactive approach acknowledges that we are all learners and that all of humanity has something to gain from this mission. We can create school climates that are no longer so arid that a single spark or gust of wind sets everything ablaze. If we can do this we may find that the fires are more manageable and less frequent.”

Order: The Empathetic Classroom (Teacher Created Materials) [https://www.teachercreatedmaterials.com/products/the-empathetic-classroom-how-a-mental-health-mindset-supports-your-students-and-you-ebook-153688?srsltid=AfmBOor8uINrWPYrLI-3jK0tycK66qsuvi_zbUgRls-y7W-Af6hyh4JJ]

Cultivating Mental Health Mindsets in The Empathetic Classroom w/ Maria Munro-Schuster

Since 2018, the Human Restoration Project Podcast has reimaged education through critical, progressive, human-centered learning! 

Across nearly 200 episodes, and counting, we've explored every topic in education: ungrading and alternative assessment, interdisciplinary play-based and project-based learning, SEL, education reforms and systemic school change in society with students, teachers, leaders, researchers, and advocates around the world. 

Join us on our mission to restore humanity to education, together!

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