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Sexual Harassment Follow Up - Episode 37
65 Plays7 years ago
On this episode of the Women in Archaeology Podcast we will be revisiting the topic of sexual harassment. We will discuss new developments in the past year, the SAA panel from the last meeting, and resources for survivors.
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Transcript
Introduction to Sexual Harassment in Archaeology
00:00:15
Speaker
On this episode, we'll be talking about sexual harassment and archeology. Joining me for this discussion are Emily Long, Kristen Barnett, and Kirsten Lopez. Ladies, thank you so much for being here. It's always great to have these conversations. Happy to be here. As always. Perfect. So, Kristen, this is actually your first time on the show, so if you wouldn't mind giving us just a quick introduction of who you are and what your interests are before we jump into today's topic, that would be great.
00:00:26
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:44
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. My name is Kristen Barnett. I'm an archaeology professor at Bates College in the state of Maine. And I focus, I'm a native scholar as well as a woman scholar. And my focus is really on an indigenous feminist approach to archaeology. That sounds fascinating. I see another episode in the making.
00:01:07
Speaker
Right? A lot of light bulbs going off. Fabulous.
Prevalence and Challenges of Addressing Harassment
00:01:14
Speaker
So today's episode is not on indigenous feminist perspectives. It is on sexual harassment in the fields, which, as we all know, is a problem.
00:01:27
Speaker
Some of our longtime listeners will remember we did an episode about a year ago on sexual harassment in the field. Since then, there's been another SAA meeting with a panel on sexual harassment. There have been some other developments. So we're just going to talk about what's changed, what stayed the same, things you can do going forward, et cetera.
00:01:52
Speaker
So to set the stage, Kristen, you were at the first SEA panel on sexual harassment. Do you just want to give a quick synopsis of how that went? I was really excited to be on the panel just based on personal experience, working in the field, working in the classrooms, being at a college out west that had some deep and sincere issues with sexual harassment and discrimination.
00:02:22
Speaker
And I got a chance to sit on a panel of these fabulous women scholars. I think Meg Conkey was sitting next to me, which was one of those like, whoa, sort of moments. And whoever sees themselves sitting next to Meg, unless it's like on a bus or something, I don't know, an airport shuttle with the SAAs.
00:02:45
Speaker
It was exciting to be there and to start the conversations. We had a packed room. Some of the challenges that came out of it were although we had a packed room, we were speaking to ourselves. But even in speaking to ourselves, there's a lot of disagreement that comes up around this. I think one of the big issues and the strengths of that first year was that we raised a lot of awareness as far as how prevalent this really is and
00:03:14
Speaker
and people of various gender identities experiencing these same patterns over and over again, whether they're students, whether they're faculty members, or whether they're working in consulting.
Limitations and Frustrations with the SAA
00:03:30
Speaker
It's a problem that's so deeply entrenched in the field. I didn't feel like we really worked beyond a level of awareness that year.
00:03:40
Speaker
The SAA is not a governing body. And that was made very clear. And so I think the introduction to this was what can the SAA do? And when it comes down to it, because SAA chooses to not be a governing body, the SAA can really do nothing other than perform a platform for discussion. Sure. Now, I know the second year, and I believe
00:04:07
Speaker
the only one who was there last year, the panel was very, very different. The room was between a third and a half full and unfortunately it was scheduled during the dinner hour and there were 30 some odd other panels going on at the same time and I think that it was
00:04:31
Speaker
Or I, and I know some other people that I talked to read it as a very clear statement by the SCA on how important I think this topic is. So that was really, really disappointing. There was some really, really interesting conversation that did happen at that meeting. There was some more awareness. There were several gentlemen in the room who were hearing and listening again. It was a room that was primarily filled with women, but there were men there as well.
00:05:04
Speaker
And the kind of Christian, what you're talking about at the end, the SEA not being a governing body was something that was really brought to the fore by one of the women on the panel. You know, that it's a problem and we know it's a problem. We don't necessarily want to be made responsible for it was kind of the impression that I got. There was some discussion about
00:05:28
Speaker
things that could be done to make it better, whether the RPA has a list of people who have complaints that's public, or whether you could strip someone of their RPA license if they had enough complaints and issues and that sort of thing. But it does seem like it was a very different session from the year before. So in addition to
00:05:57
Speaker
Having a second panel at the ESCAs, and I know, Kristen, I believe you've submitted an abstract that's been accepted to have a third panel to talk about sexual harassment at the ESCAs. I know. I think it's great that this is an ongoing conversation. Yeah, I think one of the sad things about that is that the people that have been reading this are so burned out.
00:06:21
Speaker
And frustrated by the lack of attention or by the lack of progress, I think it's being made within the SAA. I think that's an unfortunate part of taking on these discussions when you realize that the same people just get burned out. Yeah, it's an exhausting topic. And it's a hard thing to face every day.
00:06:49
Speaker
You know, and certainly as
Impact of the Me Too Movement and SAA's Response
00:06:50
Speaker
the recent Me Too social media campaign and Harvey Weinstein's allegations and firing from his own company, proven this is a widespread issue, not only in archaeology, but in response to a lot of the Me Too posts, you know, there've been other posts coming around, talking about how emotionally exhausting it is for survivors to see that this has happened to so many other people and to have to deal with that.
00:07:17
Speaker
constantly and that's just like social media and I can't imagine being one of the people who's kind of really trying to bring attention and shed light on the issue and being seen as someone in the know and therefore having people come and talk to you and ask you questions and hitting brick walls I mean it just sounds exhausting.
00:07:42
Speaker
But were there any, would you say, good outcomes beyond just awareness from these panels? Wasn't there a new statement by the SAAs or a change in the ethics rules, something along those lines? Oh. Yeah. There it was. I'm going to look it up right now, because I remember being really excited that the SA was actually going to take this on and make a new statement. And then I read the statement. Yeah.
00:08:12
Speaker
And it felt like maybe, you know, the original intention was to take it on, but eventually by the time the statement came out, it was inadequate. It felt inadequate. Yeah. Right. And they had a short comment period where people could read it and let the SEA know what they thought about it and the only options, if I'm remembering correctly. And I believe we did talk about this in one of our previous episodes.
00:08:40
Speaker
The only options were, yes, we should adopt this, or no, we should not. There was no, yes, we should adopt this, but it needs to be better. Yeah. Or I would like to make comments for modifications. There was no really conversation or way to kind of go back and forth.
00:09:02
Speaker
Some of that, I mean, that in and of itself was frustrating not to have like basically a public comment period versus yes and no. And I think some of it may have to do with the process that the SAA has for adopting ethics code rules, which I hate calling them rules because they're not, they're guidelines and that's. And actually they're ethical ceilings. Yes.
00:09:31
Speaker
They're not even baselines. And that was one of the issues that I brought up the first year that we've had this panel was that these aren't even, you know, these aren't even things that we can build upon. These are, these ethics, you know, all of these, all nine of the ethical principles are considered ceilings, which doesn't say a lot.
Need for Licensure and Organizational Accountability
00:09:50
Speaker
It's pretty war archaeology. Incredibly low bar.
00:09:56
Speaker
Well, and some of this comes into the whole hesitancy, to say the least, of SA taking on a management role. And I do have to disclose I am a, not that it's, you know, I'm not super involved, but I am an interest group co-chair for the essays. But as far as making change, the SA has little power due to their desire to stay kind of as a
00:10:27
Speaker
a non-governing entity. And that's where our PA had stepped in a number of years ago to try and become that governing body.
00:10:38
Speaker
But it's been very asymmetrical in its sort of adaptation and is very, very regional in its adaptation so far as to how many people actually join, whether it actually means anything to the other archaeologists or to contractors, any of that.
00:11:02
Speaker
And the problem with it is because you so unlike other professions, archaeology does not have to have a license, like as archaeologists versus like lawyers, nurses, even real estate agents. There are a lot of professions out there that have a sort of licensure. And I know there's a lot of problems with approaching
00:11:26
Speaker
trying to implement something like that because it's so non-standardized and it's an academic field sort of at its heart, which is where you get into problems of you have technicians that move from, you know, all the different
00:11:45
Speaker
CRM firms, you have academics, including postdocs that will move from institution to institution. There's very little opportunity for accountability is what it seems like, and that's where at least I know that I find frustration in both sexual assault and harassment, definitely the big ones, but also things like
00:12:13
Speaker
you know, people who do a lot of say corner cutting in their work or are ethically very low bar for working with indigenous communities or any of that. So that's where I think my own small soapbox of we need some sort of accountability within our field. This is one of the biggest arms I think that can really help
00:12:43
Speaker
you know, argue for something to be able to hold each other accountable for, because otherwise so far there isn't anything that can do that. Except we have federal law and the, you know, CRM, the way that that works, right, is with their federal money, federal permitting, or federal dollars, and with that comes, right, federal laws for protecting civil rights. But those laws are not necessarily called...
00:13:11
Speaker
I don't know the level of accountability. I think that the laws and those guidelines are there. The lack of accountability within our discipline or just really within the world we live in is astonishing. One thing that was mentioned at the panel last year by one of the individuals was that there is some concern over
00:13:40
Speaker
if an organization steps up and says we want to be the body that is held accountable for sexual harassment and that we will listen to all of the claims and decide whether they have merit and keep them recorded somewhere, that if down the road it comes out that someone had filed a claim against a person and that accountable body hadn't done anything or had made a decision that
00:14:11
Speaker
You know, it wasn't serious enough to merit severe repercussions or hadn't let other people know and it happened again that they could be sued and in America in our land of we love suing people. I think there was some concern and I think it's probably valid in some ways, but the SAA particularly has a pot of money that is not particularly large and litigating is very expensive and
00:14:38
Speaker
if they want to do things like have funds to invite minority and underrepresented scholars to come to meetings, they kind of have to protect those funds. That's a whole other podcast. Yes. But it's worth mentioning that that was one of the arguments that was stated during the meeting last year.
00:15:10
Speaker
The hard thing too, and I don't know how necessarily this would work, is whether or not they wish to be the governing body, whether or not, um, Society for American Archaeology or the Register for Professional Archaeologists or any of them, whether or not they want to be a governing body, I don't think it could hurt to at least just have a statement that says, you know, sexual harassment will not be tolerated. I mean, it doesn't necessarily matter if they can't litigate, but at least it puts out that
00:15:29
Speaker
you know, whatever you make of that.
00:15:39
Speaker
It's unacceptable. Yeah, like the message. And I mean, I think they kind of tried to do that in the statements and the ethics and guidelines, but it was kind of weak as well. And I think, I mean, the last sentence says, you know, SAA members will abide by these laws and ensure that the work and educational settings in which they have responsible roles as supervisors are conducted so as to avoid violations of these laws to act and maintain safe
00:16:08
Speaker
in respectful work and learning environments. The SAAs is not a safe place, right? These meetings themselves, there's numerous accounts of sexual harassment and assaults that take place just during our annual meetings. And aside from putting this out and saying that we're going to abide by this when we register,
00:16:32
Speaker
We don't have to review these, right? To go to an annual meeting or to provide membership. We're not required to look at these. We're not required to agree that we're going to review them and agree to them. In fact, you have to weed through a website to actually find them.
00:16:56
Speaker
So I wonder if it could be possible to do something along the lines, like a terms and agreement type thing that you have to do when you just download an app on your phone. Could you do something similar for membership? And even though it'd be kind of like a governing body, kind of not, but it's just like, oh yeah, for me to come to this meeting, I'll totally sign this thing that says I'll adhere to the ethics. And so that at least there's something that said, well, you did agree. So.
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah. At least I can give somebody the route for suing another person or at least go towards litigation should something happen, even just at the meeting itself. Whether or not it can be a governing body towards all cultural resource management firms, at least it could potentially make the meeting itself a more safe location, a safe situation for everybody who goes. Yeah, and it would be a very small and simple thing to do that would
00:17:55
Speaker
have an impact and make a statement about where the SAA stands in terms of the safety of their members. Has anybody ever submitted an article to American Antiquity? You have to go through this long, long process. Nowhere in there do you need to confirm as a researcher and often as a PI or professor that you're providing a safe work environment for the people that participated in this.
00:18:26
Speaker
And I mean, it's, there's, I think that these, you know, the meetings at the annual meetings are fantastic for raising awareness, but it goes beyond raising, I think we need to move beyond raising awareness of letting people know that this happens. Because at this point, it's not surprising. Nobody should be shocked or surprised that this occurs. We're still having the same conversations and not really the momentum to address these issues. Exactly.
00:18:53
Speaker
Definitely. Now, I know the SAA in the field of archaeology has had issues, paleontology has also had some issues. I actually think that there are some slight indications that things might be getting better,
Harassment in the National Park Service and Universities
00:19:11
Speaker
hopefully.
00:19:13
Speaker
But we're going to take our first break now. And when we come back, we're going to discuss some of the specific cases that have come up or have had developments in the last year.
00:19:29
Speaker
Hey podcast fans, check out the Ark 365 podcast at www.arkpodnet.com forward slash ark365. That's A-R-C-H 365 for your daily dose of archeology. Each episode is less than 15 minutes long and we have some great guests recording about awesome archeology. We also try to throw in some definitions and basic archeological information. So check out the 365 days of archeology podcast only in 2017 at www.arkpodnet.com forward slash ark365 today.
00:19:58
Speaker
Mine is also on iTunes, Stitcher Radio and Google Music by typing art 365 into the search. Now back to the show.
00:20:10
Speaker
Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Women in Archaeology podcast. On tonight's episode, we have been discussing sexual harassment and assault in the field of archaeology. Last segment, we discussed some of the meetings and the panels that have been happening at SAA meetings, statements that have been made by the SAA. And moving into this 20 minute section, we're going to start discussing
00:20:34
Speaker
some particular examples of sexual harassment that have been reported on that we know of and why they make us hopeful or despair for the future.
00:20:52
Speaker
Anyways, Emily, I know that you were dying to talk about the National Park Service. Oh yeah, just dying to. So one thing to keep in mind, and I've been a federal employee, I'm still a federal employee. So the thing to keep in mind with a lot of the laws that are in place to
00:21:13
Speaker
To report harassment, it's more to protect the managers than it is to protect the workers. And so it can be incredibly hard to have anything be done when you are the victim of harassment, and particularly if it's your manager that is doing so.
00:21:29
Speaker
And last year, just to put into context, if you haven't listened to our first episode about harassment, which you should, last year there were a number of cases being brought to the Park Service and then the Park Service itself was put under investigation by the House Committee of Investigation because of the number of
00:21:52
Speaker
cases for sexual harassment, whistleblowing, retaliation, general harassment. And the Grand Canyon had a number of assaults, sexual harassment issues, things at Yosemite, Yellowstone, Cape Canaveral, and so on. And it showed that the superintendents were not doing anything. And then as far up as the chain all the way to Washington were doing absolutely nothing.
00:22:17
Speaker
And it turned out that mostly the victims were being fired or forced out of their jobs and anything being done to those who were perpetrating the assaults or harassment in general. So there was this whole big thing like, oh, we're going to stop this. We're going to make sure it never happens again. Well, guess what? It's still happening. It's still happening.
00:22:40
Speaker
So there are still major problems. Some of the victims have received restitution. But with the Interior Secretary, Ryan Zinke, he pledged a zero tolerance for sexual misconduct. But guess what? A superintendent who was found to have been sexually harassing, so groping, touching, verbally harassing women at a park in Florida was given a new job and a raise.
00:23:08
Speaker
even though when the media inquired about the situation and tried to figure out, well, hey, why was this guy who has been investigated allowed to have a new job? The National Park Service actually gave the staff required things to say to the media, and they were instructed to praise the superintendent should the media inquire.
00:23:33
Speaker
This superintendent was no longer supervising employees, but he was allowed to keep his salary. He was allowed to have his job. Other people have been forced to retire, but that means they still get to keep their benefits.
00:23:52
Speaker
Just the general harassment outside of sexual harassment, there are those who were whistleblowing and show that they were being retaliated against and harassed for whistleblowing against poor management.
00:24:07
Speaker
And those people were fired and they did not receive restitution and the superintendents were still allowed to keep their jobs. So generally speaking, it's not working. This whole pledge against sexual misconduct as well as harassment against whistleblowers, nothing's being done.
00:24:28
Speaker
The rules that are set in place are protecting the managers and those who are perpetrating violence and verbal harassment. It's terrible. And unfortunately, when your systems in place are ineffectual, there's literally nothing you can do except sue. And God knows the amount of money somebody has to pour into litigation can sometimes put somebody off from doing anything.
00:24:56
Speaker
So it's unfortunately a difficult situation and really the major change, it has to be a major cultural change, with culture change within the National Park Service, within our systems, to protect the victims as opposed to protecting the park. Definitely. It's definitely a major flip. Yeah.
00:25:16
Speaker
It infuriates me. It makes me so bad. It's infuriating. And that's not to say that it's all bad by any stretch. And there are those who have been helped and there are those who have received help. But I mean, with a number of cases, it shows something is just horribly wrong.
00:25:33
Speaker
And it really is a cultural thing, and it's not just the National Park Service. This is outside of the field of anthropology or archeology, but there was a recent federal complaint lodged against the University of Rochester that alleged that the university had protected a noted professor who was a manipulative sexual predator
00:26:00
Speaker
and going so far as to retaliate against the people who
00:26:05
Speaker
made complaints against this professor. And I mean, the president, in trying to contain the crisis, oh, we should just turn the page in blank slate. And that's not really how that works. The alleged professor was Florian Yeager. And so far, there are 14 individuals who have come forward
00:26:35
Speaker
to the legal team and talk to them about their issues, to say nothing of the women who decided that they didn't want to add their name to the formal legal complaint, or the women who weren't surprised, or the women who saw inspected but were worried about
00:26:59
Speaker
you know, ruining their own careers. You know, and there's a particular article that we'll put in the show notes to talk about how, you know, there were rumors around the department, this was an open secret, it was, you know, well known, and this guy brought in a lot of grant money. And so the university didn't necessarily do
00:27:19
Speaker
They are alleging that the university didn't do anything to protect the students and that they should have and that sexual predators should not be in positions of power, which is not a crazy statement. Sexual predators should not be in positions of power. It seems pretty basic to me.
00:27:36
Speaker
But it seems to be an issue in all the cases that we'll be talking about, that it's a well-known, quote, secret. I mean, no one should be shocked that this is happening, because it's known, the Harvey Weinstein situation, the Park Service situation, the situation you're talking about, it's known. And that's what's disgusting about it. It's like, people know what's going on.
00:28:00
Speaker
It's the position of power that facilitates the predatory behavior if these people weren't in positions of power How could you know, would they be able to do this? Yeah Well into adding to the complication as far as from the university perspective And this is in no way defending the university's actions in any of those cases, but when you have a
00:28:30
Speaker
structure for the university systems like you have in the U.S. to where the majority of the funding is brought in like research funding is brought in from the professors and the researchers themselves. If you have say five professors that are bringing in you know most of the money for
00:28:53
Speaker
The school are like one that's bringing in most of the functioning money for the department. That person has power not only over their students and their department, but has a thumb to hold over the university itself. And this is where you get into
00:29:12
Speaker
the these wonky dynamics of the universities protecting people that I'm sure they understand they shouldn't be protecting or may not want to. And it's a little bit more, it still fits into this larger structural issue, I think that is not very conducive to
00:29:35
Speaker
working on how to fix the problem because it kind of plays into this as a much larger problem than the harassment itself. It's the reinforcing structures of the power that individuals can inherit or can basically purchase.
Economic and Systemic Dynamics in Harassment Cases
00:29:54
Speaker
Did anybody read John Krakauer's book, Missoula?
00:29:57
Speaker
No, no. Okay. So he's an investigative journalist. He did it into thin air, correct? Yeah, he wrote into air. He wrote under a banner under the banner of heaven.
00:30:10
Speaker
So his most recent book is named Missoula. And it's a case study of sexual harassment, rape, and discrimination on college campuses. And it centers around the football team. And I was there at the time that this happened. I did my graduate studies there, as well as a postdoc at the University of Montana. So I had the unfortunate situation of being
00:30:37
Speaker
in the midst of all of these things. And Missoula is not certainly, or the University of Montana was certainly not the worst, it made for an excellent case study. But it wasn't the first, it wasn't the biggest, it wasn't the only
00:30:52
Speaker
But it points to, again, these larger problems. And with the college taking on the issue, in this instance, it was a football team in a series of rape cover-up by coaches. This was also facilitated by professors. This was facilitated by professors asking their graduate teaching assistants, myself included,
00:31:17
Speaker
you know, to facilitate certain privileges for, you know, for people who are accused of predatory behavior. And, you know, and it ran not only with a football's behavior, but, you know, something the book doesn't address was, you know, the departmental dynamics, but it all comes back to, you know, these issues of power, these issues of money. If we wouldn't have
00:31:45
Speaker
laws and ethics rules if we weren't so poorly behaved. It's lovely to sit back and say, I believe and I want to believe in the good in people. I think that people are intrinsically good, but people are intrinsically not good. People behave poorly, especially when they feel as though they can get away with it. This is where we see it in our shared discipline is that we have the system where
00:32:15
Speaker
people can get away with it. But, you know, like the Weinstein situation, these aren't surprises, but they all share, you know, the similar trait of power and money. Prioritation of economics over basic human and civil rights. Yeah.
00:32:39
Speaker
Oh, that's depressing. Yeah. It sounds really good. And, you know, a lot of universities football programs are worth, you know, millions, tens of millions of dollars to the university. And that's, I mean, that's a big chunk of change to. Yeah.
00:33:02
Speaker
And how apt are those universities to take on departments where these power dynamics and these predatory behaviors are occurring when they're already losing money from these other things. They can't afford to look inward in the departments and their senior tenured professors are the ones who are bringing in grants. And the ones who are charged with taking a dozen or more students
00:33:31
Speaker
into an isolated field environment for three to eight weeks at a time. But I also think the more
00:33:41
Speaker
stories that we hear about this, the more things get known, students who come forward and file legal action against universities, or even just in the day of social media, if you google a university and the top news story pops up, noted professor, or university in trouble because they protected a noted professor who's
00:34:06
Speaker
you know, a manipulative sexual predator, students aren't gonna wanna go to that university. You can affect their bottom line if they have to pay out people who've been hurt in the past because they didn't do what they should have to protect them. They will see admissions rates decline, you know, so I do think you can also fight back economically
00:34:35
Speaker
I think so. I agree with that, but I think that it continues to put the responsibility on the people that have been victimized. Yes.
00:34:42
Speaker
not just an economic cost of litigation, but there is a defamation of character that occurs. And if you've already been victimized and you're trying to step up and take this on to be torn down through this process, I think that it's no secret, whether students or junior faculty or whomever, whether anybody's coming forward saying it, it's no secret that this is happening. Right.
00:35:11
Speaker
People know that this is going on. They know exactly who's doing it. This is not a secret and something needs to switch where the responsibility isn't put on the people that have been victimized by this. I think some of it comes with there's a mentality of
00:35:33
Speaker
say people hiring that if someone, and not just the people hiring, but just upper administration. So if you have this protectionist view of how to manage your institution, whatever that may be, be it CRM firm, be it
00:35:54
Speaker
state agency, federal agency, or university. If you have a view of protecting your institution by not letting it look bad, you're
00:36:06
Speaker
one, less likely to hire people who have stepped forward in the past, because you don't want quote unquote, the bad to get out, you know, absolutely. So that endangers both the person who comes out, especially if they're a student or junior faculty from getting a job again later. So people are less likely in those positions are less likely to come forward, if they're just trying to get in their foot in the door or trying to get hired. And you also have
00:36:35
Speaker
This mindset that in some of this I think it may turn over in the next 20 years not that I want to wait that long, but as the institutional heads are retire and they get replaced
Call for Systemic Change and Conduct Policies
00:36:48
Speaker
with.
00:36:49
Speaker
Hopefully, I'm being optimistic, I'm sure here, but I'd like to think that as these older generations that are in the top ranks of power turn over to retire, we will hopefully be getting people in that understand things in a different way and don't look at the reputation of their institution
00:37:13
Speaker
as needing to be protected from things happening inside and putting on a nice veneer, but rather switching gears and being like, let's be the best we can. And then we don't have to worry about protecting the stuff that's happening on the inside. We have to keep the inside clean. And the more people we get who are willing to step forward will help keep
00:37:36
Speaker
people inside the institution such as students and faculty and lower rank agency employees safe, which will then turn better employees because people who
00:37:53
Speaker
want to stick around, or people will want to stick around if it's a good place to work. If they've been treated poorly, they're less likely going to want to stay there. And unless they can't get a job anywhere else, they're not going to stick around.
00:38:09
Speaker
So you end up lowering the quality of employees and faculty, I would think, if you don't flush out that sort of inner rot, one might say. One thing that is very positive about people starting to do like the Me Too situation,
00:38:27
Speaker
the surveys that are coming out. And then this idea, Kirsten, what you're saying about, people don't want to stay where there is that institutional rot. Is that word of mouth? Social media has been very positive in at least
00:38:41
Speaker
showing what sexual harassment can be, more than just like everyone thinks, oh, it's assault or a direct verbal thing, but there's also the microaggressions, the jokes, things that we may not have otherwise considered to be overt sexual harassment, but with the Me Too's, the
00:39:02
Speaker
the me too hashtag and just this idea that it's coming out more and more and then the idea of word of mouth more people be able to recognize like, oh yeah, that was wrong. They shouldn't have done that or that joke is inappropriate. Don't say that to me.
00:39:18
Speaker
that's the positive side of this is that I think more and more people are able to recognize what sexual harassment can be. And then there may not be 100 different ways to go out against it, but at least they may be able to speak up for themselves right at that moment and say, don't do that. That's wrong. Or create a
00:39:39
Speaker
I don't know the right way to say it, a culture that doesn't approve of that from the get-go and then maybe that institutional rot, those types of things, at least word of mouth, or the students can say, hey, you don't want to take that class with so-and-so because they said a weird thing to me and it was an inappropriate joke, or don't go to that school because I know from somebody else's experience online, they said X, Y, and Z. Right.
00:40:06
Speaker
Now I do want to end this 20-minute section, which we are approaching the end of with a positive note. On the last episode we did on sexual harassment, we talked about the allegations against paleoanthropologist Brian Richmond, who at the time was working at the American Museum of Natural History, and he had allegedly allegedly sexually assaulted a research assistant, harassed a bunch of trainees in the schools and the museum
00:40:35
Speaker
you know, investigated him. I guess it didn't seem like it was maybe particularly thorough and he was allowed to stay on. And as of December of 2016, so almost a year ago, he had resigned his position at the museum. And it's unclear whether he resigned
00:41:05
Speaker
other pressure under pressure, although there had been repeated investigations, including an external investigation, there may have been concerns about this is well known that, you know, he engages in this.
00:41:21
Speaker
type of behavior and it's very public knowledge now. And if something else were to happen, we could be held liable and sued. This is, of course, all hearsay. No one at the museum has said that. But I, for one, I'm really, really happy to see that this became a large enough thing that he is no longer at that museum. Although he was allowed to resign and therefore take like a year severance.
00:41:50
Speaker
So could have been better, but. At least it's something. Right. Take take the mini win when you can get it. A little bit of silver lining. Right. So so on that bit of silver lining, we're going to go to break. And when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit about recognizing good and bad situations and what you can do to help stop the
00:42:19
Speaker
sexual harassment that happens in the fields of archaeology. This network is supported by our listeners. You can become a supporting member by going to arcpodnet.com slash members and signing up. As a supporting member, you have access to high quality downloads of each show and a discount at our future online store and access to show hosts on a members only Slack team. For professional members, we'll have training shows and other special content offered throughout the year.
00:42:47
Speaker
Once again, go to arcpodnet.com slash members to support the network and get some great extras and swag in the process. That's arcpodnet.com slash members. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Women in Archaeology podcast. On this episode, we have been discussing sexual harassment issues in archaeology. Moving forward into this, our third section, we're going to talk a little bit about recognizing
00:43:15
Speaker
some red flags both in individuals and in programs or field schools and what we can do to try and make this situation better. So does anyone want to jump in with something or I can start? Go ahead. I'll start. So there was a recent report that came out that highlighted
00:43:46
Speaker
some of the issues facing, um, recognizing situations where sexual assault and harassment might be more likely to occur as well as taken less seriously, not having any recourse. And, you know, one of the big things was whatever
00:44:10
Speaker
school you're planning on going to field work experience, there should be something upfront that has clear boundaries, like clear rules of conduct and a clear method of enforcing them. And dangerous situations are situations that don't even address that this is a problem and there isn't a person you can go talk to.
00:44:37
Speaker
If there's a problem, um, you know, regardless of what the problem is, but almost like having a designated like HR person, even if they are, you know, also an archeologist, but having someone like that, the simple act of identifying them makes people safer. That's a really good idea. Just having somebody in place that you can go to, even if it's minor accumulative things that you can be like, yeah, someone's so saying a strange thing and I don't like it.
00:45:06
Speaker
mean to overt. I think that's great. That would be wonderful to have in place. Yeah, and it's such a basic thing. You know, in point of fact, there was a recent report in trying to come up on the, so a new study, it was reported in the Journal of American Anthropologists found that
00:45:37
Speaker
field site directors who didn't have clear rules around conduct and someone to talk to if there was a breach in conduct were more likely to tolerate, ignore, engage, and encourage physical or sexual harassment. So having someone who has, here are the ground rules, you know as someone who is aware that there's an issue and
00:46:06
Speaker
It sends a very, very strong message. We know this is an issue or we're not going to tolerate it. I'm a person who knows about it. I'm a person who cares about it. And you know, you might be less inclined to think that you could sneak something by or
00:46:26
Speaker
So that's a relatively minor thing that could be easily done. Yes. I would like to also add that making sure that said policy is discussed at the beginning of said
00:46:41
Speaker
you know, whether it's field school or at the beginning of say the first meeting when you go out into the field for a project and having everyone have a copy. Like when they sign the paperwork for hire, when they sign up for the field school and
00:47:04
Speaker
say at the field school, having like a copy of them for people because people aren't going to have their computers necessarily available or internet or all of the above. And probably I'm 99% sure did not print out the copy of the rules of conduct to bring with them. So having a reference to be like, Oh, there was someone or a phone number or something that I can get ahold of and making sure that it's not just like.
00:47:31
Speaker
So I'm going to refer to the university policy and I see this at universities where they're like, we have, here's a link to the university code of conduct. Please read it. That's not, people don't, aren't going to read that. It's like the, you know, when you go to download something and you have the terms and conditions, I don't believe anyone that actually says that they read the entire thing.
00:48:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I made a point of starting a new policy where not just for
00:48:09
Speaker
You know, and of course I work in academia, so we do field, archaeology field schools, and they're often at remote sites where there's no phone access, there's no laptops, there's not a system of support. And we have our, I have a Title IX officer come in and meet with everybody, not just employees, but also students and give out, you know, her card with her phone number. And I've started providing details of an evacuation plan.
00:48:36
Speaker
Because we're in a remote site, sometimes people feel like they are stuck. Yeah, you know, and they're to deal with this and you know, and it's just three more weeks. I'm just going to get through. So I provide all of the students as well as the administration at the college on, you know, if something were to go wrong, whether somebody is physically injured.
00:48:54
Speaker
Um, whether somebody feels victimized or uncomfortable or, you know, if they're accused of, you know, of being a perpetrator of these things, this is my evacuation plan. And there's, and there's no questions. Like, we're not going to negotiate it. Yeah. Yeah. That's really great. Your way out and go ahead and go at any time. Really good idea.
00:49:17
Speaker
Yeah. And I found, I mean, I feel like, um, you haven't really, I feel like we have really good luck with it. I've been in field experiences where, you know, I was co-director of them, um, but not overall director where I didn't have the, I didn't have the power to enforce that. So, you know, oftentimes we learn from, you know, we, we, we learn from watching these bad situations arise. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Out of it, unfortunately.
00:49:46
Speaker
But I found that that was really helpful. And for students, or people that are looking for employment at a CRM firm, as a tech, or anything else, ask what those policies are. Before you find yourself in a situation where you need to find those resources to report or put yourself in a safe place, asking at that interview process.
00:50:08
Speaker
You know, or in visiting a department or an institution, you know, what are your policies? What are the what support systems do you have in place?
00:50:18
Speaker
Out of curiosity, beyond support systems or places to call, for your field school, Kristen, what you're talking about, were repercussions discussed? Because that's one thing I honestly haven't really seen much from what I remember going to my field schools. There's all the lists like, don't do these things, but are repercussions ever talked about? If you do this, this is what will happen.
00:50:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, what I do is immediately eject people. You know, if there's a question, if anybody's safety is at risk, then you're asked to leave immediately. And that's known ahead of time, that that's what would happen? Yeah, and I have a syllabus. We meet ahead of time. I mean, we talk about just, I include, you know, sexual harassment as part of human rights, civil rights discussions, which I think it should be, you know, and not so isolated into its own situation. I mean,
00:51:11
Speaker
Any, you know, any marginalized, any hate, any victimizing is, you know, whether it's in your language, whether it's racial, whether whatever it's based on, it's inappropriate and unacceptable, especially when oftentimes you're in remote places where you rely on each other for everything. So we talk about it in advance. I make it very clear what I put up with, what I don't. If people have concerns, I encourage them to unenroll from the course.
00:51:42
Speaker
Or go speak to their advisor or whomever it is if they're feeling like this is a challenge. I also keep dry camps, so there's no drugs, no alcohol allowed in the field. Yeah, that's another. That's a big one. That's another one. And the repercussions are that if you have these, and I find out, and somebody's going to report. We don't talk about it. You don't get a warning. There's no room for warning.
00:52:11
Speaker
Um, you just are asked leave, you lose, you know, if you're taking the course for credit, you lose credit. If you're there as a paid, um, assistant or whatnot, you're no longer paid. You get a free trip home. Yeah. That is something that I've seen at other field schools too, that I've been involved with where it's kind of like, you know, harassment or just completely inappropriate behavior. Like it's.
00:52:38
Speaker
you know, any apparent obvious problem or non-obvious problem with alcohol or anything else comes up, like you go home. Yeah, I've worked in, I mean, I spent all of my training working in camps where they were dry camps, but there was no enforcement. It was said, there's no drinking, there's no this, but even in the most obvious circumstances, where there were,
00:53:03
Speaker
You know, the priority was, well, we just have, you know, we just have a couple of weeks left. Let's just finish up and we'll deal with it later, which really meant that nobody dealt with anything. And as soon as people that seen those boundaries realize they can get a foothold and that there's no repercussions, it just gets me. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Right. And I see that largely in CRM field
Role of Alcohol and Community Responsibility
00:53:24
Speaker
work.
00:53:24
Speaker
that that footholds there. And it's like, oh, we talked to so and so they won't do that again. It's like, no, they need something stronger, a stronger repercussion than just a talking to. Yeah. And I mean, my policies are not college policies. I have, you know, I've received full support from the college and, you know, in putting student safety, right, and community safety as a priority.
00:53:52
Speaker
but I'm sure they're not standard and I can be a little bit abrupt and unsympathetic. But if you're worried about someone's safety. I'm not worried about it. I don't really care. Safety is grateful. Yeah. I've seen too much harm done. Right. One more policies like that would benefit I think everyone.
00:54:19
Speaker
Um, you know, and, and obviously when you talk about sexual harassment, you have all of the common victim blaming, um, questions, one of which is, you know, where are you drinking? But, um, alcohol is also strongly correlated, um, for people who are not like perpetual perpetrators. Um, but alcohol is strongly correlated with it, you know, reduces your inhibitions and they may think,
00:54:49
Speaker
when they were sober, they might be like, oh yeah, this is wrong. And when they're drunk, they may be like, ah, but is it really?
00:54:55
Speaker
Well, and has anybody here not heard somebody, at least one person say what happens in the field stays in the field? Yeah, that's a time and it's, it's frightening. And so you have that mentality and this like situated anonymity and freedom to do whatever you want without the, you know, without any social repercussions. And then you add alcohol to that mix. Yeah.
00:55:24
Speaker
you know, we behave, we make decisions, many of us that we often regret and some people make decisions that, you know, just are a continuation of maybe things that they have already been doing. Yeah. Um, so earlier we were talking about bringing up red flags. Um, yeah. One of the things that I wanted to bring up actually fits into this with the alcohol is, um,
00:55:55
Speaker
And this is kind of a red flag. This is kind of one of those like situations to avoid and kind of, if you see this occur, like keep an eye out for the, you know, maybe what happened. But, um, a lot of the times say in CRM firms, you have, everyone goes out for a drink or a beer or a meal afterwards or at the end of a project, you know, if you have a small crew.
00:56:20
Speaker
make sure there's a buddy system sort of thing and this isn't like you know necessarily blame the victim but trying to keep an eye out for each other and seeing kind of um i like to think of it as the um
00:56:43
Speaker
I don't know how to describe what I'm trying to explain, but rather than like, be wary and watch yourself sort of idea, what I'm trying to say is something along the lines of like, keep an eye out for things that may have been of suspect to you. And don't be afraid to say something or call it out, especially if
00:57:06
Speaker
Because a lot of the times when you are the victim, and this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, the victim is less likely to come forward in these small fields where your job may be at risk. You're rehired, especially if the perpetrator is someone who is either a senior in the field, has been around and knows
00:57:25
Speaker
you know, the community and you're first in, or if you're a student, if they're a supervisor, blackballing or blacklisting people, even text, in text against text for being, you know,
00:57:47
Speaker
uncooperative or a liar or fill in the blank, who knows what. So keeping an eye out to see if anything seems suspicious and kind of looking and checking on friends sort of thing. Because if a friend is willing to step forward against somebody, keeping the victim possibly anonymous or at least on the down low, I think that is more likely in our community to be more effective.
00:58:13
Speaker
Then in trying to help each other out and kind of you know be like, you know Drink less that would be good Often in isolated places in a small group where those interpersonal right those professional boundaries Can become blurred because you do because each other's friends family and I think one of the complicated aspects of dealing with this in archaeology or in any field science
00:58:43
Speaker
For sure. Right. But I think it is important, Kirsten, as you mentioned, kind of if you see something, say something, because people who are perpetrating these sorts of, who are engaging this sort of behavior and harassment and assault,
00:59:07
Speaker
It's about a power dynamic and it's about the fact that they see someone else as being less powerful and they can take advantage of it. So even if that person says something, they already view that person as a lesser power level. So they might not take it as seriously. But if you are their friend or their survey buddy or their supervisor or whatever your position is,
00:59:37
Speaker
And unfortunately, this is particularly true for guys, but say something, right? Say, oh, you shouldn't be talking to people like that. It's not appropriate. That's not funny. Or if somebody says something and you're like, no, no, no, no. And they're like, no, no, no. You get what I mean. Look at them, flatten the face, and be like, no, I don't.
01:00:00
Speaker
It's not just about I saw someone touching someone who didn't want to be touched. It's those microaggressions that you get away with the microaggressions and realize that nobody's paying attention to that and think maybe you can escalate. And if you can keep it from escalating by making it very clear that even these microaggressions are not going to be stood for and that they're going to be noticed by other people in the crew beyond the individuals who are being victimized.
01:00:29
Speaker
You know, that is, that is something that anyone can do. Yeah. And the whole argument that, oh, that's not what they meant. Oh, they're really, they're a good guy or they're just kidding around. That's excusing microaggressions. That's excusing poor behavior that is unacceptable and should be stopped.
01:00:50
Speaker
from the get go. If they're such a good person, they shouldn't be saying those things. If they're making other people uncomfortable, making yourself uncomfortable, then they shouldn't be allowed to speak that way or make anybody else feel uncomfortable. It's not right. Definitely.
01:01:05
Speaker
Ladies, we are approaching the end of our podcast. It's usually the part where you say, if anyone has any final thoughts, now is the time to say them, or you can remember them and bring them up on our next episode. Mine's very short. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to speak out. I know it seems very scary.
01:01:31
Speaker
but speak out and there are many, many people who will support you. And the more we speak out, the more visual this situation becomes. Hopefully we can put a stop to it before it starts in the field. That's me. Just try not to be afraid. Yeah. Kristin or Kristin?
01:01:59
Speaker
I'm hoping that these conversations continue and that, again, rather than relying on victims for stepping up and being the bringers of change for the people in power that are creating these structures or policies that have the ability
01:02:19
Speaker
to offset this, that they step up and rather than waiting for more victims to come forward, that we find our own responsibility in this and start to get on, including the SAIs. I would like to definitely reinforce what Kristin just said with, I'd like to just make a call out for
01:02:43
Speaker
the whole community to come together and make this happen because I mean, believe it or not, I mean, it's a small field and we are responsible for each other and ourselves, of course. But I really think that we need to get our shit together and
01:03:06
Speaker
And really kind of... It's true. It's so true. Get a handle on our people and on each other and ourselves and be able to create systems of... What's the word? Support? No.
01:03:28
Speaker
Um, radical change, radical change, but I'm thinking more accountability. There we go. Systems for accountability. Because in the end, that's what it really, I think, unfortunately comes down to because it has been proven that we can't just necessarily trust on the goodness that we hope everyone has in them to behave properly and not be an asshole.
01:03:55
Speaker
Um, because, you know, don't be a dick is kind of good motto for life. I think, um, yeah, but yeah, we have to, we have to just kind of get our hands dirty and create these systems of accountability somehow. And even, you know, I know everyone's afraid of rocking the boat or stepping on toes. We have to do something. We can't just be like, well, you know, that's just the way it is. That's a poor excuse. Yeah. No.
01:04:26
Speaker
Gotta take care of one another and that's part of it. Yeah. Yeah. So I would add to that because it bears repeating in the culture that we live in that victim blaming. It's never the victim's fault. I think that's something that probably not be said often enough. You know, and that we deserve better and we should do better.
01:04:52
Speaker
And we can. I know we can. And we can do better. Yes, and we can do better. Exactly. Even though we're a small platform, please feel free to email us if you feel like you're in the field and situations have been happening. We can email you resources and we'll see. There are resources out there that can help you. We are here.
01:05:17
Speaker
We support you. Our email is womenandarchaeology at gmail.com.
01:05:25
Speaker
We're here to help. And I think on that note, we are unfortunately out of time. But despite the heavy nature of today's topic, I know not all of our topics are as heavy as this. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's always wonderful to have these conversations. And I always feel like I learned something. So until next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
01:05:52
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Women in Archaeology podcast on the Archaeology Podcast Network. Please like, share, rate, and subscribe to the show wherever you found it. If you have questions, leave them in the show notes page at www.arcpodnet.com slash WIA, or email them to Women in Archaeology Podcast at gmail.com. The music is retro-futured by Kevin MacLeod and his royalty-free music. To support the network and become a member, go to www.arcpodnet.com slash members. This show is produced at the Reno Collective in Reno, Nevada.
01:06:25
Speaker
This show is produced by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.