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Archaeology and Climate Change in Kiribati - Episode 44
202 Plays6 years ago
Climate change is impacting archaeological sites at an alarming rate, and more importantly, the lives of people around the globe. We're joined by Mike Roman to discuss how climate change is impacting Kiribati, the social impact of loosing heritage sites, and some suggestions for how people can get involved in combating climate change.
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Transcript
Introduction to Climate Change and Archaeology in Kiribati
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Welcome to the Women in Archaeology Podcast, a podcast about for and by women in the field. On today's episode, we will be talking about climate change and archaeology with a particular focus on the island nation of Kiribati.
Meet the Guests: Emily, Kirsten, and Michael Roman
00:00:22
Speaker
Joining me for this discussion are Emily Long, Kirsten Lopez, and Kiribati scholar Michael Roman. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.
00:00:30
Speaker
Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm super excited about this conversation. But Mike, since this is your first time on the show, could you just do like a really brief introduction for yourself for the audience? My name is Mike Roman. I work at the University of Cincinnati. Got my PhD in cultural anthropology.
00:00:52
Speaker
from the University of Pittsburgh way back in 2014. My focus was on Pacific Island nations and endangered Pacific Island nations, culture, heritage, environment, existence, as a result of climate change. And not a lot of people know this, but there are six
00:01:20
Speaker
endangered nations in the world today that really put the human face to climate change. Something that people don't talk about, people don't recognize, but I think it's something that speaks louder than the scientific evidence that has been put forth for the last 25, 30 plus years because humans relate to humans.
00:01:47
Speaker
For sure. And I know I follow you, a project that you're associated with called Humans of Kiribati on Instagram.
Social Media Insights: Humans of Kiribati
00:01:55
Speaker
I mean, some of the images, the photos there with the descriptions are just really, really powerful. We'll just include that, the link to that Instagram account in the show notes. Okay. We also have a Facebook account, which is actually a whole lot bigger.
00:02:15
Speaker
than the Instagram account, just because Facebook allows you to do so much more in terms of sharing our videos, sharing podcasts, sharing articles, sharing so much more on Facebook. I would say we have probably around 80,000 followers on Facebook and only about like two, maybe
00:02:45
Speaker
no, 1,500, something like that on Instagram. So Instagram is really a baby account compared to what we have on Facebook.
Climate Change Effects on Archaeology
00:02:55
Speaker
but both of them are linked together. So it's a great tag team. We tried Snapchat. It doesn't work for us. Okay. Well, I will definitely be going and finding the Facebook page to follow that as well. But before we get into some of the specifics of what's going on in Katerbas, do kind of quickly want to touch on
00:03:18
Speaker
the fact that climate change is real and kind of what the impacts of climate change are on the archaeological record. So Emily or Kirsten, do either of you want to jump in with a summary?
00:03:33
Speaker
Sure. I'd be happy to jump in. Climate change is real. What an amazing, you know, revelation there. But yes, climate change is impacting, I mean, different nations throughout the world in a variety of ways, whether it is flooding or melting of permafrost. We see in Alaska areas that are literally falling into the sea, artifacts eroding out of
00:04:01
Speaker
Out of the banks, so exposing a lot of archaeological sites, but then also dramatically changing indigenous cultures that are living in those areas. And it's very difficult to practice those practices because they don't have the same access to salmon because salmon populations have changed or
00:04:23
Speaker
Literally, the village is falling into the sea all the way to other issues where cemeteries are being flooded. It's just many issues throughout the world. The primary one seems to be warming of permafrost or the inundating of island nations or in coastal regions. Yeah, and I know there was a journal article recently published in Plus One.
00:04:49
Speaker
where some scholars went and looked at the number of archaeology sites on the east coast, southern east coast of the US that were going to be impacted by climate change if the rate of global warming continues at its current rate by the end of the century and the number that they came up with for
00:05:12
Speaker
Archaeological sites, this doesn't include historic cemeteries or anything like that, was around 20,000. It's a lot of pre-Columbian sites, early historical sites like Jamestown or Charleston, South Carolina.
00:05:31
Speaker
really, really early Native American sites. So just putting a face on that in a way or picture, giving a picture to what actually could be lost is these amazing, really old coastal Native American villages to places like Jamestown.
00:05:48
Speaker
Right. And it's not just the sites. It's also the people who live in those areas. One state that was almost entirely red, and it's the state that I live in, was Maryland. And that's kind of terrifying that almost the entire state was red and red was bad because red was underwater. Well, and some of this is like, it's not even what could
00:06:14
Speaker
It's more what will. Oh yeah, that's a good point. Yes. It's just a matter of time. There are things that we can curb to slow it down. And depending on kind of what scale that you're looking at, the rate of flooding in different areas, we've already started to see, you know,
00:06:33
Speaker
Oh yeah, this definitely isn't a problem of the future. This is a problem that's happening right now. And if we could now kind of shift it back to Mike and Kiribati since we did this nice little intro. Can you tell us a little bit about what is currently happening in Kiribati?
00:06:53
Speaker
Well, what is currently happening is a result of climate change that you guys are talking about.
Cultural Perspectives on Climate Change in Kiribati
00:07:01
Speaker
But what I tend what I'm writing about right now is
00:07:08
Speaker
a manuscript called When There Was No Money, because so much of island life is life without money. There's a different way of being in the United States versus being in the Pacific Islands of Kiribati, of Marshall Islands, of Tokilau, of Tuvalu, of small-scale societies.
00:07:34
Speaker
And something that they always tell me and I joke about, which is, it's true, but there's a saying in Kiribati that goes, in Kiribati, family is everything and everyone is family. Now to take those words and try and imagine what your life would be like if you are related to everyone in the USA.
00:08:04
Speaker
And you cared about everyone in the USA because they cared about you. Your being, your existence depended on their existence. That's how it is in the islands. And when we talk about climate change, we're talking about greed.
00:08:27
Speaker
We're talking about money. We're talking about who can make the most profit at the end of the day. And my really close friend, a really close relative of mine is the former president of the nation. And he always talks about climate change as being the greatest moral crisis
00:08:54
Speaker
in today's modern era, moral crisis. He comes at it from the same standpoint that I come at it. Climate change is not about ecology. Climate change is not about science. Climate change is about greed, is about power, is about wealth, is about hoarding, is about selfishness. And so much of the science that has been hidden by Exxon, by large corporations,
00:09:24
Speaker
is almost reminiscent of what happened with the tobacco industry. And Naomi Orsikis and Eric M. Conway wrote about this in their book, great book, Merchants of Doubt. How doctors were bought to say that smoking doesn't cause any problems,
00:09:44
Speaker
all the movie actresses and actors and it's glamorized. This is good. This is nice. This is the same thing that they did with climate change. Right. They made it seem like it wasn't a problem. We knew about this in 1989.
00:10:08
Speaker
I have a statement. November 16th, 1989, Kidrest Minister from Home Affairs and Decentralization, Barbara Querata, stated this at the conference on sea level rise in Malay Island, which nobody knows about. There was a conference in 1989. There were conferences in 1985. There were conferences in 1970s talking about sea level rise.
00:10:38
Speaker
They were not heard. The voices were not heard, were not exposed.
Historical Insights from Lapita Pottery
00:10:46
Speaker
This is one voice that said,
00:10:49
Speaker
Over the centuries, the question of rise in sea level was never heard of. Our ancestors had lived happily for centuries on our islands without fearing that one day our beautiful homes may be lost as a result of the deterioration in the environment. Now, Lapita Padri, talking about archeology, Lapita Padri shows the progression from Southeast Asia into the Pacific, modern day Taiwan, into the Pacific via the northern and the southern round.
00:11:18
Speaker
A lot of our listeners are not necessarily
00:11:24
Speaker
Um, academics. So can you, if you're going to talk about Lapita pottery and I'm interested to hear about it, can you kind of explain briefly the time period that that's from and just break it down a little bit more because I also, not my area of specialty. I don't actually know what Lapita pottery is. Perfect. Thank you. Yes. So you're familiar with the Pacific islands and just the vastness of the Pacific Ocean. Yeah.
00:11:54
Speaker
The migrants into the Pacific Ocean came from Southeast Asia, Marda, Taiwan. And as they traveled by land, by the Sohu Bridge, by what was exposed, because when they traveled,
00:12:11
Speaker
and 15,000 years ago, the sea level was a lot lower at that point in time. And so they could cross by land into Papua New Guinea, over to Australia, down to the southernmost points of Australia, Tasmania, which today it's all covered by water.
00:12:36
Speaker
But when they got further and further into the Pacific, they go to the end of Papua New Guinea and they're like, oh, can't go anywhere else. End of Australia, oh, can't go anywhere else. What are we going to do? Well, I don't know. We'll travel by boat. So lashing canoes, lashing
00:12:52
Speaker
rafts, making canoes. They traveled. They were voyagers. Have you ever seen Moana? This is what Moana is about. They were voyagers and they traveled by these double-rigged hulk canoes. Huge, amazing things splicing through the ocean as fast as the wind could take them. When they traveled, they traveled intently. They traveled on purpose. They brought with them chickens.
00:13:21
Speaker
They brought with them food. They made, they made padre to hold this food on intent journey, intent journey.
00:13:34
Speaker
It has been discovered off the coast of South America, I believe in Peru maybe, chicken bones, Polynesian chicken bones. So these guys intently tried, a chicken didn't just jump on the raft and end up in Lima. It was intentional voyaging. And the pita pottery was part of this intentional voyaging.
00:14:00
Speaker
The Lapita pottery was made, crafted to transport goods, grains, food, whatever it is, on these voyages.
00:14:10
Speaker
I actually held a piece of Lapita pottery in Fiji. But from island to island, they would move and they would travel. Some would stay and start a new population in one island. Then that population would move on and they would move and start a new population. And then they would move and start a new population. And all of this can be traveled, can be carbon dated by the Lapita pottery. And more so, it can be
00:14:39
Speaker
tagged because there were certain designs carved into the potteries and we can actually see this
00:14:49
Speaker
crew that traveled with this marking on their pottery ended up in Tonga and then moved on to Fiji and then moved over to Samoa and then moved up to Kiribati. All of these shards are collected and that's kind of how we discover the travels of the Pacific Islanders.
00:15:14
Speaker
Moana makes it easily understandable for anyone to see and to experience, but it's true in those designs that, oh, I forget the main character. Come on, help me out here. Big tattoo guy. Maui. Oh, Maui. Maui. All these tattoos that he is wearing have strong meaning of their lineage, where they come from, who they are.
00:15:43
Speaker
which match the pottery. So there is a relationship between this Lapita pottery and the Pacific Islanders that happened thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago. So when Quereta says, over the centuries, the question of rising sea level was never heard of, yes, your ancestors lived happily for centuries on the islands without fear. One day their homes being lost as a result of climate change.
00:16:14
Speaker
It's true. The Lapita pottery says so. The carbon dating evidence says so. And while you mentioned that in the in the past, the water levels may have been. Somewhat lower in that area of of the world, they were there was land bridges. The yeah, but the the kind of. Change in shoreline that.
00:16:43
Speaker
is being seen today is really market. I was reading a little bit before we started this recording about the, I think it was called the King Wave or the King Tide. King Tide. King Tide. How often do those happen? The next one is at the end, 15 days. All right. That's terrifying. January has seen two or we've seen one so far, but we will see another one at the end of this month. Yeah.
00:17:13
Speaker
And the thing is, it's normal. Like king tides come about because of the gravitational forces on the planet earth as a result of the pull from the moon. The moon controls the tides. It controls the high tide, the low tide. And the difference is we are starting to see stronger and higher king tides.
King Tides and Coastal Impact in Kiribati
00:17:38
Speaker
particularly because there's more water. Right. I mean, how much coastline has Kiribati lost in the last 10 years, let's say, if you had to estimate? It's hard to say, but I'll give you photographic evidence right now. We can link to that in our notes, but if you had to estimate,
00:18:02
Speaker
It's, it's, I hate estimating because, um, you know, people want to get down to the numbers and down to the inches or down to the meters when it's not about that. It's not about inches or meters. It's about survival. And I can imagine these places are being largely inundated to the extreme lot of houses being lost. Is that what's occurring? Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
00:18:31
Speaker
You know, another thing about climate change is that it really impacts not only the tides, but also the weather. The more moisture in the air over a warm oceanic area, the more freedom tropical cyclones gain to move whichever and wherever they want to go. The impetus for humans of Kiribati was Cyclone Pam.
00:19:01
Speaker
the first time ever in recorded history that Kiribati was hit by a cyclone. Kiribati has straddled right between the trait winds, you know, 10 degrees north and 10 degrees south of the equator. It's calm. It's relatively calm because the trait winds are going one way in the north and one way in the south and leaves the Pacific equatorial region calm. But Cyclone Pam broke that.
00:19:31
Speaker
and went up to Kiribati and destroyed so much of Kiribati before it went on down to Vanuatu and destroyed so much of Vanuatu. And these cyclones are gaining more strength and more power because of climate change. That's something that you see. Also, I mean, the US has certainly had some terrible hurricanes this year that, you know, we're
00:20:00
Speaker
made possible by climate change. I think Ireland got hit by a hurricane, which was climate change. So it's having a devastating effect all around the world. And it's certainly outside of the norm. And I think that on that note, we need to go to break. But when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit more about Kiribati and some of the heritage concerns that they are facing.
00:20:32
Speaker
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00:20:46
Speaker
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00:21:08
Speaker
Hi, and welcome back to the Women in Archaeology podcast. So far on today's episode, we have been discussing some of the issues with archaeology and climate change, particularly issues that are facing the island nation of Kiribati. And before the break, we were talking a little bit about some of the specifics of what's going on in Kiribati and the
00:21:34
Speaker
the issues of climate change in the Pacific in general, as well as some general Pacific history, which I was really, really happy to have.
WWII Remains Recovery and Climate Change
00:21:41
Speaker
It's not my area of expertise. I'm glad to provide it. Yeah, I'm super happy about it. But Mike, if you could talk a little bit about some of the
00:21:55
Speaker
heritage concerns that are happening about archaeology sites with this, you know, maybe some of this pottery that's disappearing under the water along with issues of like family burial grounds. And I know there are some issues around that that are really poignant. Yeah. So I'll just sprint closer to home, US home.
00:22:22
Speaker
Back in 19, I'm going to get this wrong, but I want to say late November.
00:22:30
Speaker
1943, there was a big battle in Tarawa, called the Battle of Tarawa, in Beso, between the Japanese and the US armed forces. And I think something like 3000 died within three days. The
00:23:00
Speaker
Remnants of the war are still there. The battle guns are still on Bezo's edge, and the bodies of American and Japanese soldiers are still buried in the ground. Now, what has been happening with King Tides is
00:23:20
Speaker
A lot of dog tags, a lot of helmets, a lot of bones have been surfacing. And so when I was a Peace Corps volunteer, one of my cohort, one of my volunteers that was in the same class as I
00:23:40
Speaker
K-27 stumbled upon some dog tags from this war and reported they had a ceremony and then two US Air Force planes that couldn't fit on any island came to Kiribati to pick up the dog tags. I think only one was able to land. The other one just kind of shimmied back to the Marshall Islands.
00:24:09
Speaker
And so that has spawned the US government to do something about bringing the soldiers home, bringing the Marines home. And I think it was last December
00:24:24
Speaker
last last December that the US military went to repatriate some bones to find the missing soldiers. They found remnants, pieces of, they've described 15 or 16 soldiers that they brought back to the US and buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
00:24:48
Speaker
Now, why after 70 years are they doing this now? Well, it's because they're kind of not sure if they're going to be able to do so in the future. So even though the current government kind of denies that it's happening, the military is really aware and acting on trying to do what they can while they can.
00:25:16
Speaker
So when I went to high school, actually, of all things, her father actually works with that branch of the armed forces. He's a forensic anthropologist, pathologist. I'm not entirely sure of his official title, but they've really been ramping up, at least my understanding is that they've really been ramping up activities
00:25:44
Speaker
in the Pacific, not just in Kiribati, but in other nations as well, because there is a question of how long the remains will be recoverable. And it might be difficult and or expensive to recover bodies from some of the places they are. I remember one particular tale about it.
00:26:11
Speaker
plane that was hanging off a tree on the side of a mountain that they decided to excavate. And they knew where the plane was, but it was just going to be a pain to get to. But as much of a pain as it could be to get to some of these sites, as expensive as it is now, it's just going to be harder to get to and more expensive if you have to do underwater archaeology. Yeah, or impassable. Yes. So I mean, that's heritage for US.
00:26:42
Speaker
But I think you want me to talk about kind of like my own experience with my own Katerbas family and their heritage. The connection that there is one word known as ABBA. ABBA can mean country, ABBA can mean people, and ABBA can mean land, three and one. It's like the Holy Trinity.
00:27:03
Speaker
The connection that the land has to the people and the people have to the land is cosmological in a sense because not like here in the USA where you grow up in one house and then your dad gets another job or your mom gets another job, you move to another place and then you go to college and you go another place and then you get a job and you go to another place.
00:27:27
Speaker
We are a very mobile society here in the USA to a large part in comparison with Kiribati. In Kiribati, you are born on your family's land. You live on your family's land and you die on your family's land. And when you die, you are buried in that family's land. So you are so tied to that land.
00:27:50
Speaker
that when you die, you go and you join the ancestors to watch over that land for future generations. So land is essential to a Kiribati identity, personhood, and existence.
00:28:06
Speaker
And when we talk about climate change and climate change impacting the land, washing away, eroding, submerging, we're talking about washing away the identity, the personhood, the connection between people and land in Kiribati.
Challenges of Emigration and Identity in Kiribati
00:28:24
Speaker
And this is true for a lot of other Pacific Island nations. Land is your life and your life is your land.
00:28:32
Speaker
With that connection, I imagine that that makes it really difficult for people to decide to emigrate if they do decide that that's the best option. And that's even if they can because I realize we don't really recognize climate change as a viable reason for someone wanting to emigrate or for a potential refugee status.
00:28:58
Speaker
Is it New Zealand bringing in folks from Kiribati as climate change refugees? Is that correct? I think that was a really recent change, wasn't it? A change in policy?
00:29:12
Speaker
So that was Jacinda, Jacinda Arden, the new Prime Minister from the Labor Movement. She actually graduated from the university that I taught at as a Fulbright Scholar in New Zealand. Very proud of her. She also follows humans at Peterbass, I've heard. The law is that
00:29:34
Speaker
Environment cannot be a cause for refugee status, period. That wasn't drafted up in the Declaration of Refugees when it was created.
00:29:47
Speaker
people weren't even thinking about when it was created. But she wanted to do something for Pacific Islanders that are facing imminent loss of land, imminent loss of country. And they have it in the works. It's just being talked about. It's not implemented. There's no law for it. But it's being discussed. And that's where they are with that.
00:30:16
Speaker
Are there thoughts on then, and I don't know if this would even be possible, that should people immigrate elsewhere, whether it's New Zealand, etc., would they take the bones of their ancestors with them? Would that be even a possibility or is it something that you would keep your ancestors in place?
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah, you don't want to do that. I don't know if you want to take them with you to then have a new land, new homework. No, you don't want to remove the ancestors from their homes. They belong there. And with the living, the elders of the society, they feel this very much the same way. We had an elder here in the United States who passed away and her last dying wish was take my ashes back home and spread them on my land.
00:31:07
Speaker
There is such this strong, innate connection between land and people. And when I talk to my family in Kiribati, the elders in the family, they all say, we want to die here. We want to die in our country. Youth say that too. Not all youth, more adults, more elders say they want to die there than youth. We're talking about an ecological genocide that has been in the making since 1989.
00:31:37
Speaker
There is no stopping this from happening. We know, sad to say that I'm saying this on a podcast, we know our time is limited. It's not an if, it's a when. And there's a lot of people ready to die.
00:32:03
Speaker
And there's no, I mean, I totally see what you're saying. I'm just wondering, has there been any shift in the culture in terms of
00:32:15
Speaker
what can we preserve or is it better to stay where you are and remain with your ancestors, et cetera, or is it better to move elsewhere? Because it's honestly hard for me as somebody like has, it's easy for me to be like, I'll just move to a different state because I don't have that same connection with the land. So I'm just wondering from that standpoint, have they have the
00:32:43
Speaker
indigenous peoples there have thought about, like how can we move elsewhere? Or is it literally like we have to stay? Nowhere else in the world is open to take these people. It's not like you can just move to a different state because the state that you have moved to is in the same position. I think none of our land rises more than a couple of inches above the ocean.
00:33:09
Speaker
Banaba does, but Banaba was mined back in World War II for phosphate by the British, and they moved everybody off of Banaba. I think there's maybe a couple hundred people there. But that was an ecological disaster that
00:33:29
Speaker
get rid of the population, just like climate change is an ecological disaster that will, sooner than likely, get rid of the population there. And same marginalized, same with 650 plus thousand people around the world. What are we gonna do without? This is just the front lines. While we are on the front lines today, tomorrow it's California.
00:33:59
Speaker
The next day it's Florida. No? No, definitely. It is. I think probably the single greatest issue that our generation and the generation after us and the generation after them are going to face. So the option of leaving is not even an option. It's not an option. It's staggering to me. I apologize. I'm guilty of not knowing enough about this situation because
00:34:27
Speaker
It just hasn't been on my radar and has ever been into UNESCO. That's why we use social media. Oh, definitely. I'm so glad you're on this podcast. I checked the Instagram account and everything. I was like, I'm doing this. See, this is why when I was on a panel with him,
00:34:50
Speaker
And by the way, I can almost say I'm so glad that I presented before you because I don't know that I would have been able to pull myself together enough to present after you. But so this is why I wanted you to come on the podcast because this is so important. Thank you. But has like UNESCO done or not UNESCO, the UN or I don't know. The UN. I'm sure you must I'm sure you must be tearing out your hair too. Just like what's being done?
00:35:21
Speaker
of the UN is very well aware of our situation. I have a film that I was in partnership with. I do a lot of stuff. But appearing at the Sundance Film Festival Wednesday. Yeah, that's wonderful. Called Anote's Ark. That's about the former president, Anote Tong.
00:35:47
Speaker
and all that he did to raise global awareness of climate change. It juxtaposes his fight for his country's life with a kid of us mother who's thinking, what am I going to do with my child? What am I going to do with my future? What is what?
00:36:14
Speaker
So you have the politics, you have the Pope, you have the presidents of the USA, you have the whole UN council. We had Ban Ki-moon come and visit us in Kiribati for about four days, the former secretary general of the United Nations.
Role of Social Media and Empathy
00:36:34
Speaker
And he was a real big, stalwart, brilliant proponent for us to get our voices heard.
00:36:43
Speaker
And it did a lot for us, but the actions have not followed the warnings. So in an ideal world, Mike, what would you like to see happen over the next 10 or 15 years? The whole point of Humans of Kiribati is to paint a human base, to create human connections to humans, create awareness
00:37:11
Speaker
But not only awareness, empathy, empathy for people you've never even heard of, because there are so many countries that I've never heard of. It's just I'm passionate about this. And I got a gang of 15 youth in Kiribati who are as passionate about this with me as I am. We're fighting for our lives on Facebook. We're fighting for our lives on Instagram.
00:37:43
Speaker
I created it because Katerbus is a beautiful country. Me and my cousin created it because Katerbus is a beautiful country with beautiful people, beautiful language, beautiful culture, beautiful everything. And at the very least, I want our stories to be known before they can't be known anymore. Yeah. I mean, that's just so heart wrenching.
00:38:13
Speaker
And so important, but I kind of want to cry. Yeah. When I give lectures, I always have soppers. You didn't see me give my full thing because I was given like five minutes. Do you just put Kleenex boxes all over the conference room? Cause you're like, I know what's going to happen.
00:38:44
Speaker
Oh, there were people crying in that conference session. Oh, yeah. Oh, shit. I didn't even see. Oh, sorry. That's OK. No, it's fine. It's OK. It's acceptable.
00:38:58
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely saw some people wiping at their eyes. I definitely was sitting next to you being like, I'm sitting in a room full of people at the front. Everyone is like looking at the person to my left who's talking very passionately. I'm like not going to turn bright red and start crying. I'm really not. I'm not. I'm sorry. No, no, it was so good. It was so powerful. And actually, if you have a link to the video that you
00:39:28
Speaker
show during your presentation. I would love to include that in our show notes. Just google Mike Roman and Kiribati and you'll find so many things. Okay. Yeah, just google Kiribati CBS. And the reporter was Seth Jones, S-E-T-H-J-O-N-E-S. All right, excellent. We will be sure to put that
00:39:53
Speaker
in the show notes. My most recent one was with Al Gore. Oh. For his climate reality project. So if you Google climate reality project, Katerbas, you'll see a narrow one. That was fun to do. That was fun to man. Yeah, Al Gore. Right?
00:40:21
Speaker
Well, we will definitely get both of those, um, or all of those. Oh, and then, you know, I noticed Arc, the Sundance Film Festival this week. Which unfortunately, this, this podcast will be released after the Sundance. That's fine. Um, but I- Just these people will be able to find it. You're like, it's available. Look it up. Yeah.
00:40:48
Speaker
Well, on that note, I think that we're going to head to our second break.
00:41:08
Speaker
and access to show hosts on a members-only Slack team. For professional members, we'll have training shows and other special content offered throughout the year. Once again, go to arcpodnet.com slash members to support the network and get some great extras and swag in the process. That's arcpodnet.com slash members.
00:41:29
Speaker
And welcome back to the Women in Archaeology podcast. In case you were gone for a long pause, we have Mike here with us. And we're going to discuss a little bit on
00:41:45
Speaker
sort of some action plans laid at the end. We're going to go over a little bit of what this all is all about, but I really wanted to point out, in case you're listening and you're really wondering why we're talking about climate change, specifically climate change on Kiribati on an archaeology podcast, it doesn't take much to really realize that
00:42:10
Speaker
You know, archaeology is heritage. We do heritage management, cultural resource management. It's all the link between the people in the past. And looking at climate change and the unfortunate and dire situation in Kiribati, it kind of brings home
00:42:31
Speaker
that we're all in this together and archaeology is the past of humanity and it's hard to see or relate to a past
00:42:43
Speaker
without the present or future. So just keeping in mind that this is humanity. We can only relate to past peoples if we can relate to other peoples in the present. So developing your empathy and just reminding everyone here that as archaeologists, we are part of the four fields in anthropology.
00:43:08
Speaker
American approach to archaeology, I recognize. But that is definitely the approach that at least we're all here, American archaeologists. So and that's, that's where I want to pass it on. So during the break, Mike, you made a really interesting comment that I
00:43:34
Speaker
I'd like to go back to you, which is actually a little bit off that topic. But I think it's important to present as unbiased.
00:43:47
Speaker
an outlook as possible because no one would ever accuse us of being biased. But you did mention briefly that there are some individuals in Kiribati who, much like our current administration, don't believe in climate change. And if you just want to really quickly address that so that at least we acknowledge it.
00:44:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So it's hard to deny something that's on your front door. But it does happen. And there's a very good reason, I think, for it.
Human Responsibility and Climate Change Action
00:44:27
Speaker
God biblical terms, kiddo rest is a Christian nation, and in the Bible it says, you know, God promised Noah never to flood the earth again. And as a testament to that, he created the rainbow, which would remind everybody of this covenant.
00:44:46
Speaker
Now in Kedavas on the equatorial Pacific with lots of water vapor in the air and enough sunshine for anyone to ever want in their entire life, it's very, very easy to see rainbows on an almost daily basis. So there is a constant reminder that God promised Noah and made this arc of color in the sky to remind everybody that the earth would never flood again.
00:45:15
Speaker
So if you take the literal interpretation of the Bible and the promise, yeah, people don't believe that climate change would happen because God promised there never to be a flood again.
00:45:29
Speaker
So even on the front lines of climate change, we still have different viewpoints, which it's fine. And yeah, that's something that I didn't expect to see when I went there for the very first time, but definitely found out that existed within my own Cudabas family. Although you made another really interesting point in the break that it
00:45:57
Speaker
a different interpretation is that it's not God who's causing the flooding, it's humans? Yeah, yeah. It's not God necessarily that's breaking his or her or its promise. It's we were entrusted biblical reference. We were entrusted to care for the earth. It's our one common home as Pope Francis always says.
00:46:24
Speaker
But we kind of messed up along the way of taking care of the planet. And greed, profit, money, pollution, chemicals, you know, all that took over. And we are where we are today if you want to look at it and that like... Yeah. Now that being said, we are not...
00:46:50
Speaker
past the point of no return. I mean, there's some amount of climate change that is going to happen because there is the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere that already exists. But we can certainly still alter our path as individuals, as groups of people, as nations to
00:47:18
Speaker
it makes sure it doesn't get worse. And it will to some degree get worse because climate change isn't, I do something day one and there's a reaction day two, there is some lag time there. So there's some amount of damage and some amount of change that is just going to happen. But there are certainly things that we can do moving forward to minimize future
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. The one thing that I hear so much about, I go to conferences, I go to presentations, and all of these scientists are talking about, well, we can capture carbon and turn it into stone, or we can develop this new technology to cut down the use of fossil fuels in electric hybrid cars or whatever it is. But this takes time, and this takes money.
00:48:14
Speaker
One thing that doesn't take time and doesn't take money is to be kind. To think about humanity as a family, not as a distant entity from one another.
00:48:30
Speaker
And so when we're talking about humanity and when we're talking about being kind to other people and you know, number one, be aware that this is happening. It's not just something abstract. This is a real thing that is ending lives. It has killed people in Kiribati. People have died from climate change. A lot of youth have died from climate change. I have in my desk
00:48:57
Speaker
a bottle of salinized well water to remind me of Juni's life who, you know, purports me to, who pushes me to talk on climate change and bring the human faces of the climate change to everyone and anyone I can see. It's that human face. It's that human connection.
00:49:19
Speaker
I think that needs to be acted upon, not technology. Although technology helps, it's just we can change our patterns of behavior to be kinder to other people and to the planet a lot easier than we can turn carbon into stone. Well, and I certainly remember the phrase, and you said it at the beginning of the podcast, but you also said it in your conference presentation in October, and it's really, really stuck with me since then.
00:49:48
Speaker
In Kiribati, everyone is family, and family is everything. And if we viewed other human beings, whether it's the three of you who are on the podcast with me, or my twin sister, or someone on the other side of the planet who I will never meet, if we viewed all of those people as family and considered them in our actions,
00:50:17
Speaker
That would be so powerful. And we could really learn a lesson from Kitterbuss. And that would be a radical change too.
00:50:27
Speaker
Radical empathy. It would. In a way. You will care. But I mean, it could be so revolutionary in the best sense. And especially in this day and age, we could all use a little more kindness, I think.
00:50:50
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and even, you know, as they say, it's giving kindness and giving generally makes you happier. And it has nothing to do, and this sometimes drives me nuts with individuals I've known that do good works or volunteers or donates for the sake of it looking good.
00:51:15
Speaker
And that is not giving. That is still taking in the scheme of things. Because without that uneven power, then, you know, that person that's quote unquote giving is no longer able to do so. If things were to, you know,
00:51:36
Speaker
There was a power dynamic change, which I don't see happening at least in my lifetime, but it would be nice. I think that
00:51:52
Speaker
that is one of the biggest lessons here. And that I like to think of as an anthropologist and as an archaeologist is, you know, archaeology can help us empathize with other people that are here and now.
00:52:11
Speaker
through one's own past or through the past of those that we can see and recognize in the archaeological record, which sounds so sterile right now with so much beautiful language around me. But just, you know, it's less about the things and the things. One of the reasons why archaeology is popular
00:52:36
Speaker
in pop culture is because it's the things people feel connected to. It's the touch. Mike, you talked earlier about the land being this anchor point and the people are the land and the land is the people. With Western culture, it's very much things, which is as it's ups and downs or whatnot, as far as whether I think that's good or healthy.
00:53:04
Speaker
It's something completely different. But that's where there's this obsession or link with things and preserving and finding and recovering and touching. There's a long history with just being able to touch something from a saint or from someone that was an important person. I mean, that same
00:53:28
Speaker
being able to identify that with people living and understanding that that we can have that connection with each other while we're still alive. We don't have to wait for someone to die to like touch their urn or their ashes and be like, oh, you know, it's more important to have that connection with the people who are here and around us. And like you said, it's whether they're sitting next to you or someone you'll never meet, just realizing that it's all
00:53:57
Speaker
It's all human. It's not... I don't know. Yeah. We are all part of the same family. And Mike, you gave a wonderful quote during our break from, I believe, Margaret Mead. I was wondering, could you potentially give that quote again? I think that sums it up really nicely. Yeah. And anthropologists for a really long time, basically since the founding of the discipline, at least in this country,
00:54:26
Speaker
I recognize the value of anthropology for teaching humans understanding and empathy. There's a quote by Ruth Benedict that I absolutely adore, where she said, quote, the role of anthropology is to make the world safe for human difference, end quote.
00:54:52
Speaker
And if you're trying to make the world safe for human difference, you do have to understand other people and where they're coming from and why they feel the way they do. And if you understand people, you kind of have to value them. I think it's really difficult to devalue something that you know and that you understand.
00:55:17
Speaker
I mean, simply by the act of, of knowing about the people of kid or boss and what's going on and sharing that that information can be really profound. So, you know, go to the Instagram account, go to their Facebook account, we'll put them in the show notes, follow those, those accounts, share them, you know, when a story comes up on your timeline that you think is interesting and
00:55:43
Speaker
and worth sharing, talk to people about Kiribati and what's going on there. That can have an amazing effect. It doesn't require, you know, gobs of money or anything like that. It's something that you as an individual can do quite readily.
00:56:07
Speaker
Yeah, you know, we created it because social media does so much more than academic works, academic publishings. I think my dissertation might have about a thousand people who have downloaded it.
00:56:25
Speaker
On average, one of my posts on humans of Kiribati gets anywhere from 10,000 to 12,000 within one day.
Raising Awareness: Anote's Ark Film
00:56:35
Speaker
So like, learn, and share is what we always say.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, just the scale is so different. Out of curiosity, so the movie that's at Sundance, will it be available on Netflix or will the full movie be available for people on DVD? Will they be able to watch it on Amazon, any of that kind of thing?
00:57:03
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm so glad you brought that up because Anote is art. We are so excited for this to come out and premiere in the Sundance Film Festival this week. It's going to open nationwide in Canada first. That's the immediate nation release. And then from Canada, I don't know what the next
00:57:29
Speaker
steps are. It was a film done by a Canadian filmmaker, some of the photographer named Matthew rates. And
00:57:43
Speaker
I will have those. I will be screening at University of Cincinnati, Xavier, you know, local universities. I'm more than happy to. I was a partner in helping develop this film, supporting it. So I'm super excited to just bring this to the full screen, to the big screen, and have people
00:58:12
Speaker
not only build their knowledge of, but building empathy for their larger family members all the way around
Conclusion: Call to Action and Reflections
00:58:21
Speaker
the world. Wonderful. I'm really excited about the success of that. I can't wait to see it. Yeah, I've seen the trailer. Mike shared the trailer with me, and it looks stunning. I wish I was going to be at Sundance. Oh, I gave you the cut, the unedited cut or the rough cut. Yeah.
00:58:40
Speaker
So if you get the chance, go see it and talk to me about it. Well, I think I might be able to send you something. You got my Gmail account. Yeah, we'll definitely stay in touch. Now we are rapidly approaching the end of
00:59:03
Speaker
this episode. So we've got final thoughts. I'm going to go first, if no one minds. I know that there may be some people in the Western world who, empathy aside, may be thinking, well, this doesn't necessarily impact my life. Why should I care? And I just wanted to point out that
00:59:26
Speaker
The Western world in general, but the US in particular, is responsible for large amounts of the climate change that we're seeing. I think about a quarter of the greenhouse gas emissions that have been released into the atmosphere the United States is responsible for.
00:59:45
Speaker
We have all of this power to change because we cause so much damage, but that's also an immense responsibility. So whether that's calling your senator or voting for someone who believes in climate change or just doing your part to recycle at home, you know, we
01:00:10
Speaker
We really have a responsibility to everyone else in the world to do better, so do better. Take transit when you can. Yes, public transit, some sort of thing. Kristin, Emily, I know, Mike, I want to give you the final thought since this is your topic, but Kristin or Emily, do you have anything? The big thing is just I'm
01:00:38
Speaker
I'm sad that I didn't know that this wasn't on my radar, the situation. I'm glad and sad to now know about it, but I feel like from here, we can at least get the word out and that makes me happy. And Mike, I'm so glad you were on this podcast tonight. So seriously, thank you. Yeah.
01:01:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think the only thing, I mean, I've kind of said my piece as far as I, this has been on my radar for not sure how long, a long time. I'm not sure when or how exactly I heard about it. But I know that it is one of the things that has always been
01:01:22
Speaker
an indicator, I guess, in some ways that, like, this is definitely a thing. It will impact us all eventually. This is just the beginning. And we're kind of in the later end of that now. And unlike Mike was saying, it's
01:01:44
Speaker
kind of just comes back around to what anthropology is about and and archaeology being part of that it's connecting with your fellow humans and connecting with your past but you know in order for there to be a past there should also be a future and just seeing how that is changing and just kind of
01:02:08
Speaker
taking it in and being like, okay, wow, this is definitely happening. I mean, that's about where I'm at. All right, and Mike? So I think what you guys are doing, Women in Archaeology podcast is a great thing. I think it's on the same lines as our humans of Katerbas team. It's a small group.
01:02:36
Speaker
have really passionate people about something. We're trying to change the world. You're trying to change the world too. And I'm going to end it with a Margaret Meek quote, Pacific anthropologist who stayed in Samoa.
01:02:57
Speaker
what Moana is basically talking about. But a long time ago, she said, never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. And I'd like to say that ever will. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, this has been an amazing episode. Thank you so much.
01:03:25
Speaker
Kirsten, Emily, Mike, for taking time out of your busy schedules to record. As always, I have learned so much. And we will see you all next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Sabo.
01:03:41
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Women in Archaeology podcast. Links to the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes. You can contact us at womeninarchaeology at gmail.com or at womenarchies on Twitter. Please like, share, and subscribe to the show. You can find us on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Play. Support the show in the APN at www.arcpodnet.com slash members. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
01:04:11
Speaker
This show is produced by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.