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Should All History be Saved? - Episode 33
87 Plays7 years ago
On today's episode the hosts discuss the removal of statues from public space. They pay particular attention to the confederate monuments that are the subject of current public debate.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Women in Archaeology Podcast. My name is Chelsea Slotten, and today I'm joined by Sarah Head, Cheryl Fogel-Hash, Emily Long, and Kristen Lopez. Ladies, thank you so much for being here tonight. It's always a pleasure. Of course. You're welcome. Excellent.
Impact of Natural Disasters and Social Unrest
00:00:28
Speaker
So before we jump into the nitty gritty of today's episode, I just wanted to address a couple of things that have happened in the US in the last month. As I'm sure all of you know, we've had two major hurricanes, Irma and Harvey. There are a couple other hurricanes in the Atlantic Ocean that are kind of brewing, not sure what they're going to do yet. There are massive wildfires.
00:00:57
Speaker
out in the west coast of the country. Charlottesville and the protests and riots that happened down there also occurred. There's been loss of life from all of those events, which is heart wrenching. I will say personally, I am super, super proud to be part of the archaeological community. The people that I've seen on Twitter and Facebook and Reddit and support
00:01:26
Speaker
groups all over the place coming out of the woodwork saying, how can I help? I live up north. I have a house you can come stay at, people working on recovery after the event. We actually have one of our normal participants who couldn't join us tonight because she is in Texas and we'll be working on some of the post Harvey disaster relief efforts. That's amazing. And I'm so proud and happy to be part of
00:01:56
Speaker
this community of really wonderful people. And because it bears saying, climate change is real. Just going to throw that out. And violence is bad. So without further ado, we are going to jump into this week's topic, which is actually somewhat related to the events that happened in Charlottesville and an ongoing discussion that's currently happening
Debate on Confederate Monuments
00:02:25
Speaker
both within the archaeological community and beyond about what should be done with Confederate monuments. And beyond that, should all history be saved? What is the appropriate way to save history? Because we don't want to forget the past, but also respect that some events can be very traumatizing for people. And we've got a couple of different opinions represented on this podcast.
00:02:55
Speaker
So if someone would like to jump in with their thoughts on this, just kick it off. OK, so I'm going to out myself. I am not completely 100% for removing these statues. And I know that puts me on the unpopular end of the argument. But I have my reasons. And they are not because I am supportive of these ideals of the men
00:03:25
Speaker
that are being allowed it in these statues. It's that I feel like the removal of these, I think it is that people don't understand that history is not always pretty and good and happy. And I feel like taking these statues away is akin to erasing parts of our heritage and our history in a way that kind of
00:03:51
Speaker
makes it like it never happened. And I think it's very important that we remember that these things happened. Emily did bring up a good point, though, about the whole process needs to be in place. Because I also think it's a bit of a slippery slope. It's because once we start removing even this piece of history, you know, I mean, I'm not saying that any of this is good stuff. It's not. But once we start removing that,
00:04:19
Speaker
what's the next thing that we start removing, you know? Um, so I think it, I think it's a very delicate situation that we're walking into. Um, and I, I feel like there's a huge conversation that needs to occur before anything is taken away. Does that make sense? It does. I live in Baltimore, Maryland now and came here a few years ago and it's been interesting to be a fly on the wall here because
00:04:52
Speaker
There's the Confederate monuments in Baltimore range in creation date from 1887, which is the Judge Roger Taney to 1948, which is Jackson and Lee. And there's also Confederate women's monument and Confederate soldiers' sailors. And Baltimore being so close to
Community Reactions to Monument Removal
00:05:16
Speaker
Virginia, yeah, Maryland was a Union state,
00:05:19
Speaker
Baltimore was under martial law and there were pro-confederate riots in the 1860s. And it's just been really interesting because a couple of years ago, the former mayor put together a commission to study the removal of monuments. And there were meetings which I knew was happening but I didn't really pay attention to. And then when Charlottesville happened,
00:05:44
Speaker
current city council, someone made a resolution and it passed to remove the monuments and current mayor moved them, removed them overnight, which seems fast, but it was an ongoing conversation, but people are still
00:06:01
Speaker
I heard all sides of it, people before, people against, you know, keep my mouth shut and just listen to the comments on the buses and in the waiting rooms and such. It's really been interesting. And then the city, some activists have put up different statues on the empty pedestals, you know, just ones of black female
00:06:22
Speaker
some sort of empowerment figure, I don't really know what and that was pulled down and people were counter protesting the monuments being removed and now the city is scrambling because they put out proposals for artists to put something else up on the pedestals. And I was doing some reading, one of our local historic preservation organizations put out a study of all this with all the timelines and the dates.
00:06:48
Speaker
And I hope that gets into the show notes because it's interesting. And it really, the soldiers monument and the women's monument came up through sort of grassroots Confederate veterans and descendants of Confederate veterans. And there were debates in the newspapers, you know, old quoted articles I was reading today was really interesting. Pro and con even back then. And I don't know.
00:07:17
Speaker
I don't know. I didn't know all that depth. But honestly, on a personal level, the monument that upsets me most is the Roger Taney monument because he was the Supreme Court Justice who wrote the opinion in Dred Scott, which has basically empowered people to go after runaway slaves.
00:07:38
Speaker
was a Confederate judge to the end. I mean, he would pretend to fake illness when he had a trial coming during the Civil War about espionage because he tried to postpone the trials and just all sorts of stuff, which I knew about Dred Scott. I didn't know about some of the other stuff, but there are Roger Taney monuments all over Maryland that have had to come down. There's one here. There's one near the State House.
00:08:04
Speaker
which is concerned to have that figure as someone's coming towards the seat of democracy, which I know that's been a room now, but I don't know what's going to happen to these monuments. I don't think anyone has publicly said where they're going. So, you know, they're in storage now, but it's been a topic of conversation, not so much now because of the weather, but there for a few days, it was pretty interesting.
Role of Monuments in Education
00:08:32
Speaker
Yeah, so context I think is a really important aspect of things. Exactly. And that's exactly what I want to see. But I don't know that that context belongs in front of courthouses that are seats of democratic governments. Totally agree. And in parks that children are playing at. And there was a really interesting. I think it absolutely belongs in front of courthouses.
00:09:01
Speaker
So there was a really interesting op-ed that I read a couple weeks ago that was a girl who was from, I believe it was Alabama, but it could have been Georgia, one of those deep Southern states that was a Confederate state. And she talked about being in school.
00:09:29
Speaker
and going on school field trips to places where these statues were, specifically in some cases, to go look at these statues to stand in front of them, to get photographs taken in front of them. And the plaques were already born here, died here, served in the Confederate army. American citizen fought for the rights of the Southern states.
00:09:58
Speaker
nothing on that plaque indicates in any way, shape or form any of the ethical and moral conundrums created by this. And apparently in this particular girl's school, they weren't addressed in classes basically ever. So until she went to university at, you know, a liberal New England
00:10:26
Speaker
smaller, you know, liberal arts school, there were just all these things that she had never been asked to address or to figure out how they related to her identity as a southerner. And she just had this idea that these men were great men who had, you know, fought first days rights and just very, very skewed perspective.
00:10:55
Speaker
And I don't think we're doing a good job contextualizing it. And I also think as much as we could put up a plaque and hope somebody reads it, like how often do people actually read plaques next to statues when you're, you're told. Exactly. And I would definitely agree, Chelsea, on that. Pardon me. It's not just school children.
00:11:19
Speaker
I mean, children generally don't having one of my own read the plaques, no matter how much you try to get them to or try and read it aloud to them. They don't pay attention. It's looking at the monument. It's looking at how they're portrayed in the sculpture. It's the art. It's the context of placement rather than the context of time and the more
00:11:44
Speaker
nuanced sides of it, the majority of the general public aren't going to pay attention to the number of people, even in parks that are interested in the specifics of the history of the park, actually read the entire signage when they're there. Most people walk through. Not everyone comes for the historical signage and people that read it usually breeze skim through it and pick out the pieces that they're most interested in or that they agree with.
00:12:13
Speaker
So putting up signage in places where the context of the statue's placement is potentially damaging to people's outlooks on life, on other people. And I think they just either need to be removed or relocated.
00:12:43
Speaker
to a place where people can take a look at the more intimate context, such as like in a museum, in a side garden of a courthouse, not necessarily out front. Because anyone coming in, whether it be someone who is being tried is not going, for example, is not going to have a very positive outlook on the court's proceedings
00:13:12
Speaker
that they're about to walk into when there's someone like this particular judge being revered in the front of the yard of the courthouse. Yeah, that I think depends on a case by case basis. I think as a broad statement, no. But, you know, I don't live in the South. I live in the West. So it's I have a very privileged outlook to the what's going on.
00:13:42
Speaker
The challenge I see is the few times that I've been to the South that the social dynamics are in some ways very appalling still to this day. And it's one of those things that it's in the details and in the minutiae and the things that you don't discuss that reinforce a lot of these social nuances that are continued.
00:14:11
Speaker
And it's just not thought of. And I think to make people think about it, removal or movement is the instigator of conversation over new signage. Because the number of people that are going to engage with that are going to vary hugely, just dramatically.
00:14:37
Speaker
My personal outlook on monuments generally, though, tend to definitely look at the actions within the place of history rather than from outside as an archaeologist looking in.
Future Perceptions of Historical Context
00:14:52
Speaker
I feel like we are a part of history and we're creating what future archaeologists or future historians may look at and what statues and monuments we choose to keep around will inform their ideas about what we hold dear. And, you know, one might say it's somewhat
00:15:14
Speaker
you could say naive or like idyllic in trying to be like, you know, this is how I hope that we're perceived as a society or as a culture a hundred years from now or, you know, a thousand years from now. It's keeping those statues around or definitely not how I think I would like to see our culture portrayed in the future.
00:15:37
Speaker
There are still a lot of people that hold these views of separate but equal, referring of course to a lot of the Lee statues and others being erected during Jim Crow, is yeah, that's why they haven't been completely removed. That's why they were put up and that's why it's still a controversy. So it's, I would like to hopefully see that our society will reflect upon this in
00:16:05
Speaker
the not too far future and be like, you know, this is not how we should treat our fellow human, our neighbors. And this is no longer something that we hold dear. And I think, you know, the just like with an advertising, how you portray women is plays a big part in how women are treated. And I think how we portray important history
00:16:39
Speaker
our diverse culture and the diversity within the United States, you know, does play into the reality of how it's acted out. So I think those are some really excellent points. We are kind of butting up against the end of our first 20 minute section. And I think that there are a lot of really important
00:17:05
Speaker
points we can touch on and arguments that have made for and against for and against this in terms of the whitewashing that may be happening on the erasure of history. I'm going to suggest that we come back to that after the break when we can really delve deep for the next 20 minute section.
Advertisements and Announcements Break
00:17:22
Speaker
So see you after the break. All these things we make no apology for the study of archaeology.
00:17:35
Speaker
Did aliens build Stonehenge? Did the Easter Island statues walk? Did the Vikings colonize Midwest America? What does mainstream archaeology have to say about all of this? Listen to the Archaeological Fantasies podcast and learn about popular archaeological mysteries. Hoax or fact? Learn to tell the difference with Dr. Kenneth Fader and co-host Sarah of the Archaeophantasies blog.
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Speaker
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Recap and Ongoing Debate on Monuments
00:18:22
Speaker
So far in today's episode, we have been discussing the place of monuments
00:18:27
Speaker
in history and whether or not they should be saved, particularly in relation to the Confederate monuments. When we left, we were just starting to get into some kind of social justice aspects of the monuments and how they relate to history and white supremacy and attitudes that may still be prevalent in the South. And I know that Sarah had some thoughts on those topics. So let's kick it off with you, Sarah.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah, I know that this is the wrong side of the argument, but I have to argue it anyway. We mentioned earlier the whole, you know, what about the culture in the South kind of thing? And my biggest problem with the statue removals, especially when it's just like the whole like, burn it down,
00:19:21
Speaker
The problem that I have is I feel very strongly that this is a censoring of history. And yeah, it's a horrible, ugly part of our history, but it happened. And removing all indicators or memorials of that happening isn't going to do us any favors. It's going to make it easier for deniers
00:19:50
Speaker
to say, no, no, that never happened. Or it didn't happen the way you said it happened. And Chelsea, I think it was, was telling the story about the, or maybe it was, Cheryl was telling the story about the girl who had no idea of her state's history until she got out of the state schools and into college. And that's not an uncommon story, no matter what state you're in. But it's only going to be worse
00:20:20
Speaker
if we take away all the little reminders. And, you know, there are some that come down. I mean, I don't think we really need 15 statues to that one judge because A, we don't need 15 statues in one state to anybody, honestly. But keeping one up isn't a bad idea. And the thing with the signage
00:20:43
Speaker
I mean, we can make the same arguments for positive signage as we made for the negative signage. People are either going to read the signs or they aren't going to read the signs, and that's why when it comes to presenting history and in museums and that kind of stuff, signage is always a pet peeve of mine because I never feel like it's adequate anyway. But people are going to interact with it on some level, and it's better to have something than to have nothing.
00:21:09
Speaker
But at the same time, we need to have these statues up and yeah, having them up in front of a courthouse, I think is perfect because we need to be, we need to tell people, you know, at one point when you came to this courthouse, if you were the wrong color, you were screwed for no other reason than you were the wrong color. And we need to remember that so that we don't do it again. And it's, as I said before in the first segment, it creates a slippery slope. You know, we start censoring and we start editing that horrible part of our history.
00:21:39
Speaker
What's next and I know someone's going to be like, oh, you're being reactionary or you're blowing it out of proportion, but it's like, no, I'm not. Look at what's happened over the last year. You can't tell me that I'm not being a reaction. You can't tell me that I'm not onto something when I'm watching it happen on the internet and on the, you know, just in general with our politics.
00:22:03
Speaker
The more reminders we have about the bad parts of our history, the better because it will prevent this crap, hopefully happening again in the future.
00:22:12
Speaker
That's the thing, removing the statues removes them out of context. Unless you have something set up for these things to be moved into, and I'm sorry, you have to preserve them. This is history we're talking about. These things either need to be left in situ or they need to be moved someplace where they can be taught properly as part of our history. I'm not seeing people say, okay, let's build
00:22:42
Speaker
a jim crow museum where we talk about this or let's build a museum to racism or any of that all i'm hearing is tear it down burn it down this offends me let's get rid of it. Well you know what history is offensive we're not good people we've done horrible things we need to remember that.
00:23:04
Speaker
But you can make the same argument the opposite direction. I mean, how many statues are there in downtown DC where I'm like, I don't fucking know who that is. I think it's another Washington statue. And then you walk up on it and you're like, oh, it's Morton somebody or other. I don't know who that is. I mean, in general, we are horrible at communicating our history and our monuments to future generations. We're bad at it. So the argument swings both ways.
00:23:34
Speaker
It doesn't have to be like that, I guess is what I'm saying. I mean, I agree that we don't want to erase history. And I, for example, think it would actually be a really, really great idea to take some of these statues and put them in a museum and contextualize them. And that context, as I would see it,
International Comparisons in Monument Handling
00:24:00
Speaker
wouldn't
00:24:00
Speaker
be in a civil war exhibit, it would be in a Jim Crow era, you know, south exhibit, or it would be in, um, you know, civil rights movement exhibit, because that is when a lot of these were enacted. Um, one thing, and I know that anytime you bring up Nazis and Hitler, you're going to have people be like, Oh, that was a different thing. Or so like, please spare me.
00:24:29
Speaker
I've heard it, I've thought about it. I'm just going to throw that out there before anyone else gets that idea. But Germany doesn't have any statues of Hitler hanging around. That doesn't mean that they're forgetting the Second World War or the terrible human being that he was or all of the awful things that happened and the people that lost their lives. And that's not to say that there aren't World War II monuments in Germany.
00:25:00
Speaker
But they're about the people who are hurt. And I think that that's like a very important part of the conversation is who is this impacting? And Rosemary Joyce wrote like a wonderful, wonderful piece about Confederate statues and whether or not we should hold on to them.
00:25:30
Speaker
I'm going to put it in the show notes because it's wonderful that basically say it's not necessarily our choice, right? Like we weren't the people who were hurt by that. We are not the people who are currently being hurt by the presence of these statues. And sometimes we need to get out of our own way and let other people's voices be heard.
00:25:59
Speaker
And that this idea of preserving history shouldn't come at the cost of people who are currently living. I second that. Because for so many people, this is in many ways, there's still a bit of a reality behind it. I mean, it's a reminder and a reinforcer of things that are currently going on. It's not 100 percent in the past. And a lot of these things are
00:26:30
Speaker
constant reminders and reinforcements of of the way that society is structured. And if we want that to change, you know, definitely teaching history is kind of in, of course, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, is a one on top of the list as far as priorities that we have totally and completely slacked on as a country in so many different ways. And
00:27:01
Speaker
Sarah here, I noted as well that Germany has issues with, quote, fringe groups reinterpreting their own history. And that's something that we have an issue with here as well in the US. And thus, let me just put out an example of flat earthers, you know.
00:27:29
Speaker
You don't have to venture far into the Internet to find things that aren't real that people are grasping onto. So did you want to elaborate on that, Sarah? Yeah, I was just responding to what Chelsea was saying.
00:27:53
Speaker
I think the examples of Germany and Nazism are perfect, actually. And I don't care if anybody wants to throw Godfrey's law up there, screw you. It is important to note that, that Germany has gone out of their way to minimize the number of Nazi monuments that are left around the country. And I mean, that's their prerogative. But the cost for that has been
00:28:23
Speaker
interpretation is now open to anyone. The article that you mentioned, she makes a very powerful argument. The problem that I have with the argument is, and as I've said before, I'm very sorry if certain parts of history are offensive or hurt people, but that's why we need to remember that.
00:28:53
Speaker
We need to have reminders of that so that we don't Continue to do it or so that those same people can point to that and be like look This has happened. These things were real This is why I am offended or I am hurt and I think Washing all of that away Is not going to help anyone it's It's a really hard argument, but
00:29:24
Speaker
I mean, I just do not see the benefit to removing any mention or most mentions of horrible things that have happened in our past because all we are left with at that point is the sunshine rosy view of the past.
00:29:42
Speaker
As someone who deals with debunking crap on a daily basis, part of the problem that I have is people have this golden age syndrome of the past. It's like, oh, in the past, this was perfect and this was this and this was something else. It's like, no, it was shit in the past and here's the evidence that it was crap. But if I don't have that evidence to point to, I can't make those arguments as easily.
00:30:11
Speaker
That is where our jobs as archaeologists and as historians come into play. This is an argument I've been having in my grad school class right now. It is our job to educate the public. And if the public walks up to a statue and doesn't understand the context of that statue, we have failed.
00:30:41
Speaker
I mean, I don't have a better way of putting it. The only way that people know what something is, is if we give them a clue of what it is. Here's a statue of Hitler. He was the leader of the Nazi party. He is responsible for killing some, what, 60,000 Jews and other groups, you know?
00:31:07
Speaker
There's no reason why we can't put, and I mean, I got plaques are not the best thing, but there's no reason why we can't put interpretation around the monuments saying, here's a statue to General Lee. He was on the side of, wait, Lee, I got the right, now you got me questioning myself. You know, he, he was, I guess, in support of slavery.
00:31:38
Speaker
You know, I mean, it's, I'm not saying that we need to preserve every freaking statue or every monument, but the other end of this argument is some of these monuments that have been put up, not all of them, but some of them that have been put up are put up by people who were the survivors or the families of the soldiers who fought on the side of the South and who were not great people, but are we,
00:32:07
Speaker
Are we really willing to tell these people that you can't have memorials to your dead because they did a thing that is offensive to 90% of the country? Even as much as I don't like what that all stands for, I don't know if I'm really willing to tell somebody that they can't honor their dead. So here's something just to toss in.
00:32:37
Speaker
is the proportion of statues and large monuments, because they're, of course, hideously expensive, to put up the proportion of those that venerate things that we think today as a majority ideal of our culture as hideous things. For those things,
00:33:06
Speaker
that we would like to celebrate and venerate. How many of those exist? Do we have room in our cities? Are we making room in our cities for the things that we want to see venerated and that we want to see statues of? I agree that we should be replacing these instead of just tearing them all down because it leaves, as mentioned before, a vacuum.
00:33:33
Speaker
And I think it's something that is difficult to do just based on the cultural context of where it's occurring and the heated sort of slow curcure, a simmer that this has been on for what, 150 years or so now.
00:33:58
Speaker
I just think that as far as for the people who were, you could say victims who are today still those when they walk by these statues cringe or feel ill, do we have anything for them to look up to? I mean, you have like idols.
00:34:21
Speaker
Basically, that's what these are, right? You have these monuments to personas, whether they have correct cultural context or not, they are idols for a certain population to look up to and venerate, whether we agree with that or not, or whether we would like to have them do that or not. Whereas there's another portion of the population, a much larger portion of the population,
00:34:45
Speaker
that would prefer to have something more positive or something else to look up to or venerate. That would be my next proposal alongside Emily's like, you know, destroy with care. Let's put something else. I completely agree that we need to have a counterbalance in the monuments and the statues. I mean, it's it's it is also creating a vacuum by not having those things.
00:35:16
Speaker
I mean, I'm right. And I'm 100 percent with you guys there. I mean, we need more monuments to women. We need more monuments to minorities. We need more monuments to our slave past and that kind of stuff. We need those things because of the same thing that I just said about telling Southerners that they can't venerate their dead. We need to venerate the dead of other groups as well. That's the only way that we're going to dig ourselves out of this hole.
00:35:45
Speaker
Unfortunately, where that money and where that stuff comes from is not in the purview of archaeology or history interpreters. That falls on the backs of politicians and special interest groups. And we can support them when they say, I want to build a statue or I want to build a monument to venerate so and so who was a great
00:36:13
Speaker
a great force of change in, I don't know, the Black Lives Matter
Future of Monuments Reflecting Modern Movements
00:36:17
Speaker
or something like that. I mean, that's going to come up eventually. I think when that time comes, we should put all of our weight behind that and be like, yes, we need to have a statue to that. But until then, all we can do is say, let's not destroy the history we have and let's put more of the history that we know about up. There's no reason why we can't have
00:36:38
Speaker
you know, a positive statue next to a negative statue. I think that would be fantastic because then you could be like, this dude was an asshole and this guy wasn't. And I think that would be a really good counterbalance. But yeah, I mean, I think it's right. So give us money. I mean, it comes down to a money argument and I hate when that happens, but it's kind of where it's at.
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah, and unfortunately, the old aristocracy in in the South is kind of where a lot of those statues came from. Exactly. And it's definitely up to us educators, the historians and archaeologists to let people know who the good people were, I guess. It is. That's such a problem, though, because there's such a range. Some people really know the history and some don't. And it's it's some it's, you know, some it's out there.
00:37:35
Speaker
Some of the historic preservation groups and some people are very knowledgeable, but then you get people who are just angry that certain monuments were taken down and you know they just have an emotional reaction but. What do you do, because the closest monuments to to where I live.
00:37:53
Speaker
There's a big monument to George Washington. It's kind of like the one in DC. You can go up there, stairs inside of it. It's 100 and some feet tall. And you can go up to the top and look around the neighborhood. Well, then that's a couple city blocks around that are these small parks. And they all have statues. There's all sorts of them.
00:38:15
Speaker
I don't even know who they all are, but there's certain people on horses and certain pedestals. And the Judge Taney Monument was one of them that was taken down, but I couldn't tell you who the rest of them were. But you're just going through about your business. There's a big bus stop that's within line of sight of it. It's just out there. But getting back to the George Washington Monument,
00:38:40
Speaker
It's most folks' common knowledge that Washington owned slaves, but nobody has said, let's take that monument down. So it's not necessarily the Confederacy and the South, it's the lost cause narrative when these monuments came up later, which we've been talking about. And it's just really, it's really dark, but I don't know how you force people, other than the schools, I don't know how you force people to,
00:39:10
Speaker
uh, really learn this, you know, dark bits of the history because, um, and then my other point is a minor quibble. It's the state house, the Maryland state house where the other judge Taney, um, turn a statue is the state house and the capital of Maryland and Annapolis. So it's not there may, he may be at some courthouse somewhere, but the one I was referring to when I was talking about government is the state house, the elected government, um, and people coming into the, the capital.
00:39:40
Speaker
Sure. And I know that there are other monuments in other states in front of courthouses and things. We have run a little bit over on this second section of the podcast. Sorry. No, I think it's great.
00:39:53
Speaker
I think we're having a wonderful conversation and I feel really bad about having to jump in and be like, oh wait guys, it's time for a break. But oh wait guys, it's time for a break. So when we come back, I think we'll dive right back in here. I think there was a really interesting comment that was made about putting positive and negative statues next to each other. And I would love to bring up a case study from across the pond.
00:40:36
Speaker
and access to show hosts on a members-only Slack team. For professional members, we'll have training shows and other special content offered throughout the year. Once again, go to arcpodnet.com slash members to support the network and get some great extras and swag in the process. That's arcpodnet.com slash members. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Women in Archaeology podcast. So far on today's episode, we have been discussing the place of monuments in
00:40:43
Speaker
We will get to that on the other side of this break.
00:41:06
Speaker
our history and should they be removed? Should they stay? What should be done with them? Particularly regarding Confederate monuments in the U.S. I would like to take a quick detour across the pond to Great Britain. Obviously, there's been a lot of attention recently on the conversation that's happening in America, but there was an excellent Guardian article from
00:41:35
Speaker
couple of weeks ago, end of August, talking about a conversation that needs to happen beyond just North America. This particular piece was addressing Admiral Horatio Nelson, who defeated the French Navy and people in Britain learned about him and loved him and liked
00:42:00
Speaker
He was like a really solid strategist, and I will just throw that out there because he was. He was also completely unrepentantly what we would now identify as a white supremacist. He lived during a period when people were denouncing slavery. Nelson was vigorously defending it, and he had a lot of political and social clout at the time.
00:42:27
Speaker
I mean, he's one of Britain's best known naval heroes and he used his position in society in the House of Lords and all of the influence he garnered through the activities that he did during his life to perpetuate slavery and the tyranny and torture and rape and exploitation that goes along with all of that. And that's really fucking terrible.
00:42:59
Speaker
Washington and Jefferson owning slaves. Yeah, and yet being our founding fathers. Exactly. And on the other side, you know, there's a square where in Wimbledon that has two statues, one of Nelson and one of William Wilbur First, Wilbur Force, who was
00:43:26
Speaker
you know, great force for ending Britain's official involvement in the transatlantic slave trade in 1807. So there are examples in the world of places where you have both very, very positive figures such as William Wilberforce situated right next to people like Gabriel Nelson, who was a white supremacist and like not a cool dude.
00:43:54
Speaker
And an engagement with these issues is still not being dealt with. The author of this article was tweeting about it and came back and said, you know, some of the replies that he was getting on on Twitter were people being like, I don't want that nonsense spreading here from America. Past is past. We have moved on, which is like a direct Twitter response from like
00:44:16
Speaker
Hey, like maybe we should look at some of our own statues and things because apparently trying to deal with the ethical and moral conundrums that exist in a history of population is nonsense. Like, no, it's super, super important. And I mean, like the conversation we could have about the evils of colonialism, like hours and hours and hours and podcasts and podcasts and podcasts. And we should definitely rant about that at some point.
00:44:43
Speaker
I feel like there's already a podcast that handles all of that. Right. But maybe we'll table that for another day because we've only got another couple of minutes. But this isn't a solely US problem. And even when you have situations where things are slightly more contextualized and you have positive along with negative, that doesn't guarantee that people are going to engage with it in a critical and thought-provoking manner such that we might
00:45:13
Speaker
desire. I like this is very similar to what happens with art. Keeping in mind that a lot of these things were considered art when they went up. The problem is, is
00:45:27
Speaker
Once we can only do what we can do as much as I've been ranting about, it's our job. We can only put the materials up there. We can only put the plaques up. We can only put things in the context for people. People are going to internalize it and digest it in a way that is going to make sense to them. I mean, we simply cannot be there for every person to pound into their head.
00:45:55
Speaker
what we think the interpretation should be. And that falls, so it falls on the individual to take the responsibility to read what's there and understand it to some degree. Unfortunately, that does put these things up so that they can be used in ways that we don't want them to be used.
Public Interpretation and Educational Role of Museums
00:46:16
Speaker
I mean, someone's going to walk by one of these statues and read it and be like, yeah, that guy was a badass. And there's not a whole lot we can do about that.
00:46:26
Speaker
But the hope is that if we get enough information out there and we get enough counterpoints out there and we keep things in context, that enough people will walk by and be like, that guy was an asshole that we don't have to worry about it. And I apologize for my swearing, but.
00:46:43
Speaker
That's the reaction we want. When it's bad history, we want people to walk up to it and read it and be like, that is bad. I have gone to a museum of racism and I have walked through it and it was powerful and it was moving and I cried and it was beautiful. I didn't walk out of there feeling any worse about myself than I did walking in. I was proud of that that museum exists and I will get you a link to it.
00:47:10
Speaker
and we need more of that in this country so that people can go in there and they can see the crap that we've done in the past and they can see what racism looks like. Then they can walk out and they can be like, you know what? Those people were assholes. I don't want to be that person. They walk out and they're a better person for it because I don't believe that many people walk into that museum and walk around and then come back out and be like, oh yeah, look at all this stuff we used to do. Yeah, I don't see it happening.
00:47:39
Speaker
And that's the reaction I want people to have to these monuments to racism. I want people to walk up to these statues, and I want them to read about these people. And I want them to go, no, I don't want to be that. And I don't want that to happen again. And so I'm going to do everything I can to not be that person. But we can't control it, is what I'm saying, I guess. I'm ranting. I'm sorry. It's all right. No, and great point.
00:48:07
Speaker
Um, I want to add, uh, you mentioned a good, um, racism museum, as Sarah, there's one museum that I, the tickets were sold out when we were in, um, Louisiana, uh, over the spring. And, but I really, really want to go, this is on my really high up on my to-do list over the next couple of years is to go to the Whitney plantation museum.
00:48:33
Speaker
Yes. And we mentioned earlier money being a very big. What's the word for driving for driving force in a lot of this, quote unquote, art or monuments and history being put up and the stuff that's recognized by the public and able to be recognized and looked at by the public. I mean, public art is very expensive.
00:49:01
Speaker
And that's the reason why if it's not put up by private money, public money, sometimes in some areas and some states and some cities is put aside for it, but not often. And when you have something like the Whitney plantation, um, that's put up, which I'm sure a lot of you have heard of it. If not, it is a museum dedicated
00:49:23
Speaker
that this gentleman took a historic plantation and made it into a slavery museum. And there are bronze
00:49:37
Speaker
sculptures and statues throughout. It is, from what I've seen, you can check it out on the website, is amazing. And as far as like things that can really kind of attest to the horrible things in the past in a more visceral way, similar to how these large monuments that we're discussing can have on a person, because that's some of it is it's like the
00:50:01
Speaker
History can seem really abstract to some people, and there are people who have a hard time really grasping like a reading or a signage, but the visceral experience of being next to or below like a hundred foot George Washington statue is very different. And so I would say, granted, I haven't been there yet, but, you know, anyone who can or has the opportunity to definitely check out that location.
00:50:28
Speaker
The place I was talking about. It's the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia and it's in Big Rapids, Michigan. It's attached to the college there. You kind of have to go through their library to get there, but it's amazing. And if you were ever there, it's free to go. Actually, I think it's like a $3 donation, but either way, go do it. You will improve your life by doing that. Awesome. And definitely add it to the to-do list.
00:50:52
Speaker
Not in Michigan all that often, but. So where's Big Rapids versus Grand Rapids? Which part of the hand? Ah, kind of in the middle. Where was I when I was up there for an archaeological dig? We were putting in a pipeline and we had a snow day, so we went to the college and it's it's it's Big Rapids. I want to see it's like.
00:51:21
Speaker
30 minutes south of Grand Rapids? Okay, but it's nearby. Awesome. Yeah, definitely. I think we will all add that to our to do list. You know, and there are definitely museums that are doing a better job
00:51:46
Speaker
addressing some of these difficult issues in our past, I will say. And I know that the waiting list is incredibly long. I'm still to get into it. And I will also admit that despite the fact that I work at the Smithsonian, I went to the staff preview weekend and they were still kind of tweaking the last couple of things before the new African American History and Culture Museum opened. And I've been back once and had, you know, 45 minutes
00:52:16
Speaker
to see it, which is definitely not enough time. I think the first time I was in that museum, I spent five hours. But it's really good. And they do an interesting thing where when you started in the history section, it takes you from the beginning all the way up through essentially modern times through civil rights and a little bit beyond so that it's you
00:52:40
Speaker
really experience and see the depth and breadth of history and culture that African Americans have contributed to this society that we live in from the very beginning. And they also have some mention of early African Americans who were free and really contributed
00:53:05
Speaker
economically and were rewarded for their economic contribution and made money off of it. So they weren't slaves because slaves did also contribute economically. They just didn't gain anything personally from it. And it's a very, very important distinction. So there are certainly examples of of us getting better. And I just I look at these monuments and I know they were capable
Conclusion and Reflection on Historical Narratives
00:53:35
Speaker
capable of displaying these objects and dealing with this history in a way that is both respectful to all of the people who suffered and died and were done wrong by, as well as being a teaching and a learning experience and having people come out and be like, yeah, I know that shit's fucked up, not doing it again.
00:53:59
Speaker
And I'm super glad that the conversation is happening around what should be done with these monuments because it gives us the opportunity to grow. But I want to see that opportunity taken advantage of. And, granted, one of the things that's super, super great about the fact that it's happening now, even if people aren't happy about it, is that we're talking about it.
00:54:24
Speaker
And people are being forced to confront how they feel and what they want to see happen. And that's the path that is going to allow us to move forward, rather than just kind of keeping on, keeping on. Well said. So I think we've got just a couple of minutes left here, maybe two or three. Does anyone have kind of any closing thoughts that they have just been itching to
00:54:54
Speaker
say and haven't had the opportunity to over the course of this conversation or, you know, floor's open, last chance. Nah, I've pretty much said my piece and I feel like, no, I've said my piece and I feel like everybody has been very respectful of everyone's opinions and I think we're all on the same page. I just think we all have different questions and different ways of going about what we're thinking.
00:55:26
Speaker
Agreed. It's, it's all like, um, the same destination, different paths. How should we deal with this? But the end result is more or less the same that these things need to change, which is why, as we said, it's, you know, a topic of a conversation, a hot topic at that. Um, and with that also making sure that that context reaches the classrooms. Yeah. That's a whole other episode how things play out too.
00:55:54
Speaker
where we go in future with some of these conversations and civic conversations that are happening and what the consensus is and the actions going forward. It'll be very interesting times. Definitely. Agreed. And definitely I would say as a last little thing off of what Cheryl was saying is, you know, if, if you feel strongly
00:56:19
Speaker
in any direction, get involved. This is one of those things that, you know, statues don't go up or come down by themselves. So if you want to see something else in its place, you know, gather a bunch of artists and start fundraising. You know, there's
00:56:40
Speaker
Well, no. Yeah. In case that hasn't been made abundantly clear throughout the course of this podcast, we don't like Nazism and we don't like white suppression. Yeah. Right. I'm just like, I'm going to be opinionated to throw that out there. Like, no. But yeah, as far as... Chelsea is correct. I stand by that statement. Exactly. Exactly. So yes.
00:57:09
Speaker
Those of us, I guess, get involved when you can, where you can, not just with this specific piece of issues, or this specific issue, but also with just history and education generally, you know.
00:57:31
Speaker
advocate for local history, get involved in your local historical society, et cetera, et cetera. Because those places, as they have more people coming to them, more issues like this will become points of conversation. But unless we know who these people are that are statues in our gardens, it's really hard to say one way or the other.
00:58:01
Speaker
That's a good conclusion. Yeah, excellent. Excellent point to end on. As always, ladies, I adore talking to you. I feel like I have the most productive and stimulating conversations. So thank you very much for having these conversations with me. And thank you to everyone who listens. If you have any thoughts or comments on this podcast or any other podcasts,
00:58:30
Speaker
You can always reach us at Women in Archaeology at gmail.com or on our WordPress blog, which is also Women in Archaeology blog. We would love to hear from you. And until next time, thank you so much for listening. Bye.
00:58:55
Speaker
We hope you have enjoyed the show. Please be sure to subscribe and rate our show wherever you listen. We are available on iTunes, Stitcher, and probably whatever your favorite podcasting app is. Remember to like and share. If you have questions or comments, you can post them in the comments section for the show at the Women in Archaeology page on the Archaeology Podcasting Network site, or email them to us at womeninarchaeologypodcast.com. This show is part of the Archaeology Podcasting Network,
00:59:23
Speaker
and is produced by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle. You can reach them at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Music for the show was Retro Future by Kevin MacLeod, available at Incomtep and Royalty Free Music. Thanks for listening!
00:59:43
Speaker
The show is produced by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.