Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
E144: The Icebox Murders
4.4k Plays3 years ago
Flower pots were stacked in front of 1815 Driscoll Street in Houston when the detective arrived to do a welfare check on Fred and Edwina Rogers, who resided at the address with their son, Charles. What the detective found was one of the most gruesome, yet calculated crime scenes many had ever seen.
Magic Spoon is keto-friendly, gluten-free, grain-free, soy-free, and low-carb. So, no matter the way you are trying to eat healthy, Magic Spoon fits the bill! And, what’s even better is that is doesn’t TASTE like you are on a diet. If you are looking for food that is both healthy AND tastes great, don’t take our word for it. Try it out yourself! Go to magicspoon.com/coffee to grab a variety pack. Then use our promo code COFFEE at checkout to save $5 off your order.
Recommended
Transcript
Morbidology's Win at I Heart Radio Podcast Awards
00:00:00
Speaker
A few months ago, Emily Thompson's podcast, Morbidology, won the best international podcast at the I Heart Radio Podcast Awards. Emily works hard like we do and researches, writes, hosts, and produces each episode herself. And she's an author and just an amazing person. So please take a moment to check out her podcast, leave her a review, and let her know that Maggie and Alison sent you.
00:00:29
Speaker
Here's a recent review of her show. Quote, I seriously had to question if I was ethical to be so excited every Thursday morning for my Morbidology Fix. The opening theme has basically become my favorite song. I have to stop myself from dancing. Emily's incredible, and she's so good to really focus on the people who the victims were. You will binge, so might as well get the Patreon feed now. End quote. And here's a little about the pod from Emily herself.
Introduction to Morbidology and True Crime Focus
00:00:57
Speaker
Morbidology is a weekly True Grand podcast hosted by me, Emily G. Thompson. Author of Unsolved Child Murders, Unsolved Murders, Cults Uncovered, and Mysteries Uncovered. 911 emergency. I shot my husband. I need an ambulance. He's bleeding.
00:01:14
Speaker
Each week on Morbidology, I uncover a new, true crime case using investigative research combined with source audio. I just snatched it from her to my son and took it and was like, I just hit her with it. Morbidology is a victim-focused podcast that mostly covers cases that aren't widely documented in mainstream media. I also like to take an in-depth look at any systemic failures which had a part to play in the crime. Do you know why you're here?
00:01:54
Speaker
Love notes to our sweet new Patreon members, Sarah, Heather, and Kelsey.
00:02:03
Speaker
go you guys. Yes, such a sweet note. She did. Listening to y'all is like hanging out with old friends. Love you both so much. Wish I would have found you all sooner. Oh my god. I know me too. I know. Kelsey that just made my day. It makes me so happy. We hope that you are loving our Patreon episodes.
00:02:26
Speaker
And if you haven't yet, you other sleuth hounds, make sure you check out our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash coffee and cases where you can hear so many episodes to laugh, learn some more about us, get spooked, hear some full length solved cases, all for only $5 a month. Plus you get a shout out. The best part. Yes.
00:02:53
Speaker
It is no surprise to you all that I often see connections to literature in the cases we talk about here on Coffee and Cases. And today is no different. If you've been listening to the show for any amount of time, you know that one of my favorite short stories is Lamb to the Slaughter. And since I'll reference it in pretty much every episode, I thought today I would start by sharing a synopsis for those that have no clue what I'm talking about every time that I mention it.
Roald Dahl's Twisted Tale: A Murderous Cover-up
00:03:23
Speaker
Now, while I love this story, I think my love for it would convolute any summary I could possibly produce. So I'm going to read you one that I found on smart summary dot com. And this is lengthy, but it's worth it. So quote,
00:03:38
Speaker
Lantern the Slaughter is a Roald Dahl short story published in Harper's Magazine in 1953. It tells the story of a woman who coldly commits murder and then gets away with it by creatively destroying the evidence. Mary Maloney is a devoted housewife. She cares for her home and is heavily pregnant with her first child. Her husband Patrick is a detective and she is very much content in her marriage.
00:04:02
Speaker
She arranges the table just so she takes care of everything. She rises to greet him when he comes home. She is calm and devoted, even going so far as to make his favorite drink for him just the way he likes it. One day when he returns home, he is aloof and acting strangely. She assumes that the job must have been more tiring than usual that day and doesn't think anything of his behavior. Patrick drinks more than usual that night and reveals the source of his mood. He wishes for a divorce.
00:04:29
Speaker
Mary is stunned and retreats to the deep freezer to retrieve a leg of lamb for dinner as if she is in a trance. Patrick angrily tells her not to bother making him dinner because he's going out and begins preparing to do so. She tells him that he can't leave. He replies that she should try to stop him. While he looks out the window, Mary suddenly hits him over the head with the frozen leg of lamb, spooler alert, he dies instantly.
00:04:56
Speaker
She looks at his body and begins to form a plan. She knows what the consequences of murder are, and she must take the baby first. She prepares the leg of lamb she had used as a weapon and puts it in the oven. She then decides that she needs an alibi. She practices a happy face and thinks of a few things to say in small talk. Then she goes to the grocery store and chats with the attendant about what to make Patrick for dinner. She returns home where her husband is dead on the floor and acts meaningfully surprised. She cries and calls the police.
00:05:25
Speaker
The police arrive and decide immediately that Mary is above suspicion. They believe that Patrick was killed by an intruder using a blunt object probably made of metal. They search the house and the surrounding yard looking for the possibilities but are unable to find anything.
00:05:40
Speaker
Meanwhile, the leg of lamb is done cooking and Mary invites the officers to dinner. She tells them that it's already past dinner time and that the meat will only go to waste. Mary sits nearby while they eat, but she doesn't partake. They discuss the murder weapon and mention that it's probably right under their noses. Mary giggles.
00:05:59
Speaker
Roald Dahl is playing with the stereotypical characteristics of middle-class housewife identities. At this time, traditional gender roles regulated women to the household and Mary encompasses that identity fully. She is content pouring her husband drinks, making him dinner, and caring for the house while he's at work. When she kills him, this act shatters the subservient role that she has taken on as a perfect housewife.
00:06:22
Speaker
He is leaving her and instead of taking on the secondary role of housewife, she kills him. Then she plots carefully and coldly how to get away with it. She knows that her demeanor will cast her out of suspicion and so she destroys the evidence the only way she knows how, by using her homemaking skills. The central theme is that it's dangerous to underestimate those who seem weak. Mary's disposition causes Patrick to feel comfortable and dismissive when he tells her that he wants a divorce.
00:06:47
Speaker
He would never think that Mary could be capable of killing him. Just like in Lamb to the Slaughter, today we're going to talk about the dangers of underestimating those around you, because anyone is capable of anything. Just as in Lamb to the Slaughter, today we're discussing the death of two innocent lambs.
Unraveling the Icebox Murders Mystery
00:07:04
Speaker
This is the story of the Icebox Murders.
00:07:41
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:07:50
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families.
00:08:01
Speaker
With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because, as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week. Okay, Allison, it's our favorite time of the week. Love nodes for Maggie. Allison!
00:08:25
Speaker
I tried to harmonize there. Our love goes out to Amy for reaching out to us to let us know that arrests were made in the German Clarice case that we covered way back in episode 76. So here's hoping to some justice. That's so long ago. Yes, I know.
00:08:47
Speaker
I know. And that is a case where I spoke to several of his friends. So that's a case near and dear to me. And you guys were super amazing. And you knew that we were going to be stressed out with back to school things. And we got three five-star written reviews this week because we needed them. Yes, we did. Keep those coming. Yes. Yes.
00:09:14
Speaker
and use it don't abuse it said quote i love the chemistry of the friendship between the host they have a great sense of curiosity and humor while treating the victims and their families with respect i also appreciate their extensive vocabularies and clean banter end quote okay side note there are sometimes you all do not know this that allison will say words and i literally will go to my phone while she's talking and look up the definition
00:09:42
Speaker
because I have no idea what she just said. This is an educational show. Yeah, we're the new Mr. Rogers. That's right. We also had Micah, who previously left us a review, write us an updated version after a couple of people a few months back said that we had too much banter and discussion of theories. Okay, malarkey, but whatever.
00:10:12
Speaker
She wrote, quote, I've already written a review, but I need to edit it after reading some of the negative reviews. I have to say that I love that Maggie and Alison share their own stories and may sometimes get off topic. I feel like I'm talking to a friend about cold cases and I get this exact feeling when listening to the podcast. I've been a listener since 2020 and I always come back because they show that they truly care. Maggie and Alison do amazing work researching and presenting cases.
00:10:40
Speaker
especially in the fact that they both still work outside of having a podcast. They bring spotlight to many cases that aren't widely publicized and I absolutely love that. I started listening when I was a first time stay-at-home mom in 2020 right when the pandemic hit and now I also work full-time but I make sure to tune in on my drives to work. Keep on keeping on and please don't change a thing about the way you present these cases because you do a phenomenal job.
00:11:05
Speaker
Well, thank you. And that almost made me cry. I know. That was the best. Yes. And our final review came from KimJoe87, who wrote, quote, I'm not sure how I stumbled onto these two in this podcast. I come back to this podcast over and over. They lure you in and pour you some coffee.
00:11:29
Speaker
While we all chitchat, they somehow talk about horrific crimes in a way that is sympathetic, honest, and respectful to their victims. I know they've researched every case that they feature, and they do so honorably and to the best of their abilities.
00:11:45
Speaker
These two have become my best friends, my favorite teachers, a part of my coven and most important of all, my favorite podcast. Keep advocating, girls. Love the accents, the giggles and the honest reactions." I'm telling you, Maggie, we are blessed with the most amazing and kind listeners in the world. I feel like we need to meet these people.
00:12:12
Speaker
I know. These have warmed my heart. I don't even know these people. And I feel like I would fight someone for you. I've never been in a fight in my entire life. But I would throw hands with somebody for you. Seriously, the best. You can't be violent for your love. So. Yeah. There you go. And with that, let's get into this week's episode. That's a perfect segue. OK. Yeah, a perfect transition.
00:12:42
Speaker
So we are not in the fifties, but we are in 1965 and obviously life then was much different than life from today. And when I read about that time, I think about, you know, slower pace. It's peaceful. Like I picture quaint little leave it to Beaver towns, you know,
00:13:10
Speaker
And that was the picture. Brady Bunch. Yeah. I love Lucy. Yeah, that's what I picture. Mm-hmm. That's what I picture. And 1815 Driscoll Street was normally the picture of quaintness. On a typical day, the flower pots at 1815 were full of life and colorful, standing tall, reaching for the sun, unlike mine who have all died. But, you know. But...
00:13:40
Speaker
When Houston police captain Charles Bullock pulled up to the house on Driscoll Street for a welfare check, nothing about what he saw was the picture of peace and quaintness. Oh no. Yeah, this one is a little, I will say,
00:13:59
Speaker
A little gruesome if you have tiny ears. Okay. It's a little gruesome. So Allison, an elderly couple lived in that sweet little house on Driscoll Street and their names were Fred and Edwina Rogers. They were 81 and 72 respectively. And I love old people. Oh, I love old people. Especially when they hold hands and they're out in public. So sweet.
00:14:28
Speaker
And you see the issue here was these two hadn't answered their phone for days and this wasn't like them. This was very odd for the two of them to go days without speaking to anyone. So their nephew, Marvin Marlin, that would be very hard to say five times fast. That's his tongue twister. Had been groped. Yeah. And that's, you know, I struggle with words. So that one was hard.
00:14:56
Speaker
But he had been growing more and more concerned as his calls to his aunt and uncle went unanswered and his concern grew until he knew he had to check on them. So he expects to find the two at home maybe with like a bad landline. Maybe the phone was off the hook because that's a good explanation at this time.
00:15:16
Speaker
They're old, maybe they forgot to pay the phone bill and it's been turned off, you know, something like that. He drops over there expecting just to find them in their normal everyday life. But when neither Fred nor Edwina answered their knocks or his knocks, he actually called the police and was like, Hey, do you mind to come over and do a welfare check?
00:15:43
Speaker
Which I think like some people kind of frown upon people that do welfare checks, but if I had not been heard of for several days, I would hope that someone would do a welfare check for me. Right, yeah. So instead of the colorful flower pots lining the sidewalk, when the police arrived Bullock found the pots stacked against the door as though someone was trying to make it really hard for them to enter the home. Oh no, this is a bad sign.
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah. And he too, you know, knocks. Nobody answers. And so he's like, yeah, we're just going to force our way into the home. And he did that with his partner. So he and his partner began searching the house. The partner heads to the living room while Bullock searches the kitchen. And he said in an interview later, quote, something just didn't feel right.
00:16:40
Speaker
end quote. So he says as he's walking around, just something kind of fills off in the Rogers home. And when I was reading all the research, I'm like, okay, so they've not been heard of or heard from for three days. So what would I be thinking if I come in and they're not at home? Well, they're elderly, so I'd out there on vacation somewhere and hadn't told someone where they were exactly. So
00:17:11
Speaker
immediately my mind's going somewhere bad because what else could it have been? I mean even at the least like maybe one went to the hospital and the other one was with them and they you know they're old so maybe that obviously this is a 60s so you don't have cell phones so maybe they just forgot to call but at least I mean that's still bad but then obviously this is gonna be much worse. Right or we won't be talking about it. Right.
00:17:41
Speaker
One thing that kind of pushed him towards feeling something wasn't good was the fact that there was moldy dinner left on the kitchen table and food around the kitchen that would typically have been found in the refrigerator.
00:18:00
Speaker
And he said that he smelled decay. Okay. Well, he should be doing more than thinking that something is off and not feeling right. I mean, that seems to me pretty clear sign.
00:18:15
Speaker
that you know yeah that something's up this is bad well i'm wondering though you know maybe a mouse is in a trap and they forgot about it and that's what you smell like you could play that off but he didn't he was like you know what i'm not gonna leave any cabinet and open any drawer i'm pulled i'm gonna look everywhere and so he turns to the refrigerator
00:18:37
Speaker
Right? Because if there's food out that's typically supposed to be in the refrigerator, what's in the refrigerator that's keeping the food from being in there? Okay.
00:18:50
Speaker
He said, quote, I don't know why I looked in the refrigerator. For some reason, I just opened it, end quote. And I read in one source that he saw the foods on the counter and was like, oh, what the heck is going on? And I get that. That's a normal reaction, I think.
00:19:12
Speaker
It still seems a little odd to me. Just so I'd immediately be like, let's check the refrigerator. Yeah, because I feel like if I'm looking for two people, okay, you might see food out that's normally in the fridge. Yeah, I think I would still be yelling out their names and looking for them. To me, it feels off.
00:19:33
Speaker
And they are older. I don't know if they had dementia or anything like that. But it could have just been they got the food out and they forgot to put it back. And I could explain that. Because sometimes people do forget things like that, especially when you're older. But then I read in another article on mental floss that Bullock was actually thirsty and opened the refrigerator looking for a drink. Are you serious? I read it when it was a beer. But I don't know if that's true.
00:20:02
Speaker
Yeah. That is cold and callous, and I hope that that is not true. That's what I'm saying. I'm going to give him the, like, get the best light possible and just say that it was piqued curiosity because I would hope that we wouldn't be that unprofessional. But obviously you're bringing up your refrigerator for a reason. So there's going to be something weird.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah and so for whatever reason he does open it and he does find some weird things. At first he thought he was seeing a refrigerator full of hog meat which is kind of weird but really could also be normal. I don't know
00:20:46
Speaker
If you did this growing up, but my family, it was very normal in the little household for us to buy a hog before winter set in and get it butchered and, you know, packaged or whatever. And we would put it in the refrigerator slash freezer.
00:21:05
Speaker
So I'm wondering if maybe he just thought they did something like that. I've never done a hog, but I know that some of my neighbors, they'll buy like a cow and they'll split it with other neighbors because you'll get like a bunch of steak and hamburger meat and things like that. And it ends up being cheaper than if you buy it from the grocery store. So yeah, that could be explained away.
00:21:34
Speaker
Well, one thing that could not be explained away was what the officer would find in some of the drawers of this refrigerator. Okay. So hog meat, air quotes, lined every single shelf. Allison, it was unwrapped, which is gross, but it appeared to have been washed. Like it was clean. It was when he opened the crisper drawer. So like, you know, where you keep your lettuce and veggies.
00:22:02
Speaker
that he realized his initial assumption that it was hog meat was very, very, very wrong. Okay, there's only one thing I can think of that's gonna be in there that will tell him that his assumptions were wrong. In the crisper drawer.
00:22:23
Speaker
Lolic found the severed heads of Fred and Edwina. I knew that's what you were gonna say. And all that hog meat, all that hog meat turned out to be the meat of Fred and Edwina, dismembered, drained of blood, and missing all of their entrails. Oh my goodness, so whoever did this,
00:22:51
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Okay, well I'm immediately, I'm pointing a finger at the town butcher because
00:23:02
Speaker
I don't know if most people would be like, you know, let's not only coldly murder someone, but to dismember them, drain them of blood, remove their organs, and then put them in the refrigerator and pull all of the normal fridge stuff out. Like, why would they put it in the fridge? I guess so.
00:23:30
Speaker
wouldn't smell. I don't know. I don't know. But I think like, and I think I mentioned it later on, but when I cook like a whole chicken, when I bake one in the oven, it is so hard to cut a whole chicken, like get the legs off, separate all that stuff. I can't imagine doing that on a scale like 100 times bigger than that. This is what I'm saying. This is somebody with like knife skills.
00:24:00
Speaker
and not the average person. And what's more is Bullock said that Edwina was staring up at him, but Fred's eyes had been gouged out. Oh, wow. And see, and that tells me that whoever did this, obviously the target was Fred and Edwina was probably just the consequence. Yeah, because she was there.
00:24:30
Speaker
And as if this crime wasn't gruesome enough, we're just going to add one more gut-wrenching factor in there. The autopsies in the corner, they were able to determine that the couple had been murdered on Father's Day. Oh, man. And they did have a child, so yeah. Oh. Obviously not a young child, but they did have a kid. Right.
00:24:51
Speaker
Investigators also determined that Edwina had been beaten and then shot execution style. Fred had been beaten to death with a hammer. Oh my. Yeah. Oh my. And his eyes had been gouged out from his school and his genitals had been removed.
00:25:15
Speaker
Okay. Okay. I've got all kinds of theories. I'm sure you're going to talk about some, but I got them all going around in my head. Well, to me, I'm sure you're thinking the same thing. At this point, I feel that this is the definition of a crime of passion. Like this is personal to me, I think, but we'll talk about it.
00:25:40
Speaker
Oh, I definitely agree. So we're going to assume that it's a personal crime. So if it is a personal crime, then we have to try to figure out who committed it. So surely it was either a family member or a close friend. And I think we can go ahead and roll out the nephew because I don't think he would call the police and say,
00:26:01
Speaker
Hey, can you go check on my aunt and uncle? I haven't heard from him in a couple of days if he was the one that chopped them to bits. Perhaps, unless it is a detour move, but I would tend to agree with you because the longer they go without being discovered, the less evidence there would be.
00:26:23
Speaker
So then I'm thinking if the house was locked because we know they had to force entry into the house, whoever did this would have had to have a key to the house because they had to lock the door behind them and been able to get in.
00:26:40
Speaker
And from the details I'm going to give you, this person also had to have been familiar with the layout of the home. So they don't think it was a stranger just because of all of those factors.
Exploring the Rogers' Crime Scene and Suspicions
00:26:53
Speaker
Well, and I don't know if you're going to get into this, but I was wondering where the crime was committed. Because if they can walk in and they're not necessarily noticing anything, like the detective you said just had a gut feeling that something was off,
00:27:07
Speaker
then that means the crime occurred in a different room or was cleaned or something. So it's all of the above. Okay.
00:27:19
Speaker
When they arrived on the scene, they discovered that the scene had pretty much been scrubbed clean, but they did find some blood in the basement and an upstairs bedroom. I told you that the killer would have had to have been comfortable with the layout of the home or at least knew
00:27:39
Speaker
where certain rooms were located because it was discovered that Fred and Edwina's bodies had been taken to the basement for dismemberment because in the downstairs bathroom the two had been drained of blood and cut up into pieces in the bathtub down there and their organs had actually been flushed down the toilet.
00:28:01
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Yeah, but because they found their organs in the sewer system. Oh my goodness. This keeps getting worse and worse. You guys know our obsession with Krispy Kreme and other sweets and at the same time how much we detest exercise. Yes we do, but as we grow older
00:28:24
Speaker
Those calories, those extra sugars, they seem to add up faster and faster with each passing year. And it is time to start thinking about how the way I eat affects my life. The problem is that so many of those healthier options don't have good taste like the sugary ones. I really failed to switch with my breakfast routine and my healthier cereal options until Magic Spoon, which offers all those flavors we love from our childhood, but without all the added sugar.
00:28:54
Speaker
Magic Spoon's variety pack includes four flavors, cocoa, fruity, frosted, and peanut butter. Each serving contains zero grams of sugar, 13 to 14 grams of protein, only four net grams of carbs, and all at only 140 calories a serving.
00:29:15
Speaker
It's keto-friendly, gluten-free, grain-free, soy-free, and low carb. So no matter the way you're trying to eat healthy, Magic Spoon fits the bill. And what's even better is that it doesn't taste like you're on a diet. The fruity one is my personal favorite. It is absolutely delicious. My daughter and my grandbabies love to snack on handfuls of it when they manage to steal some from me from behind my back.
00:29:42
Speaker
I loved the frosted ones best and Anthony says that the cocoa and peanut butter mixed together tastes just like a peanut butter cup. Magic Spoon is so confident in their delicious taste that it is backed with a 100% happiness guarantee. So if you don't like it, they will refund your money. No questions asked.
00:30:00
Speaker
If you are looking for food that is both healthy and tastes great, don't take our word for it. Try it out yourself. Go to magicspoon.com forward slash coffee to grab a variety pack and then use our promo code coffee
00:30:17
Speaker
at checkout to save $5 off your order. Go get that delicious bowl of guilt free cereal at magic spoon.com forward slash coffee and use promo code coffee. Thank you magic spoon for sponsoring this episode. So yes, I feel this episode just gets sadder and sadder and more. Yeah.
00:30:46
Speaker
And we talked about this. This would not have been a fast process. No, this person had to have been in his house for a long time.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yes, because like I said, I mean, I know nothing obviously about cutting up human bodies, but I struggle cutting up a chicken. So I can only imagine doing something on that big of a scale times two. And I can't imagine, I mean, first of all, to have that, I guess, cold
00:31:18
Speaker
demeanor in order to be able to commit a murder, but then to, you know, basically shut off all human emotion while you're doing these, you know, multi hour long process. I mean, that's a dark place that this person is in.
00:31:39
Speaker
And that's why I wonder if maybe it could have been a stranger. I feel like if it was someone they knew, there would have had to have been so much hatred. Oh, so much. But we'll talk about theories. Okay. Autopsies, according to Mental Floss, revealed that Edwina had died of that gunshot wound to the head, though that weapon
00:32:04
Speaker
to this day has never been found. As you guessed, Fred did get the worst of the beatings. He was beaten with a hammer, which, again, such a slow process. His eyes were plucked out, his genitals were severed from his body, and it just seemed so vindictive.
00:32:34
Speaker
The act of the removal of his genitals makes me wonder if there was some sort of sexual motivation behind it with that vindictiveness. I'm just curious about that. Well, that's actually in one of the theories. Yeah, I was gonna say that's an odd injury.
00:33:04
Speaker
to not have a motive. Yeah. I feel like it would have to have a purpose. I don't think that somebody caught up in the heat of the moment of beating somebody with a hammer would say, okay, now I need to cut your genitals off. Right. Exactly. Unless they're specifically thinking about it. Exactly. The hammer was found on the premises, but police could not confirm whether any fingerprints were retrieved from the claw hammer.
00:33:34
Speaker
I know I'm wondering who would be confident enough to kill two people in their home and then meticulously cut their bodies into tiny pieces. They would definitely need to be close to the victims and have a good idea of their schedules. That's true. And I don't mean, you know, oh, they have a doctor's appointment, you know, on Monday, they go every Tuesday to get their hair done. But I'm talking about like details of if people came to visit them. Um,
00:34:04
Speaker
you know, if they typically went out to the grocery store or if the mailman normally came and stopped by. Right. Because those, that would be important if you're committing a murder that's obviously taking multiple hours. Yeah. Yeah. Because non-responsive to a doorbell, you know, of a regular visitor would send up red flags. So yeah, they would have to know those things.
00:34:30
Speaker
And I don't think you would want to be interrupted. No. Because I also think, you know, they would need to know, does the nephew typically stop by on any given day? And maybe he had a key and could just walk in, you know, like things like that.
00:34:47
Speaker
Because of the details I outlined for you guys, many people started to wonder if Fred and Edwina's son Charles was responsible for the icebox murders, as this case has now come to be called. Okay, give me all the theories. Okay, I'm gonna give you a little bit of background.
00:35:09
Speaker
On the three and then transition into theories. OK. So Fred was 81. He was a retired real estate salesman and his wife was in her 70s. There were a couple of different ages that I saw for her. One I saw she was 79. One was 72. So respectfully in that age. Mm hmm.
00:35:31
Speaker
And she was a sales representative. So their Houston home and their activities appeared pretty much unremarkable to their neighbors. They seemed, you know, the typical elderly couple that lives down the street. They weren't normally seen out and about a lot. I mean, you could see them from time to time watering flowers, maybe sitting on the porch, that type of thing. When the investigators began.
00:35:57
Speaker
to interview people in their neighborhood. Many were actually, their neighbors were actually surprised to discover that Charles actually lived with Fred and Edwina Steele. Uh, then how did so much time pass before they were reported to the police for a welfare check if he lives with them?
00:36:26
Speaker
It's a really great question. And we'll kind of talk about that in a way. This is not looking good. So not only did Charles live in the home and the people that lived around Fred and Edwina had no idea, he actually owned the house where this murder took place. So very familiar with it.
00:36:54
Speaker
So at the time, Charles was 43 and a veteran of World War II. After getting a bachelor's degree in nuclear physics from the University of Houston, he enlisted in the Navy and learned to fly airplanes. He became a seismologist and later spent nine years working for the Shell Oil Company. Wow. At the time of his parents' death, it's not clear whether he was employed or not.
00:37:19
Speaker
But this dude is smart. Yes. Nuclear physics, aviator, seismologist. I mean, yeah, you don't you don't get any of those jobs not being intelligent. If you're not smart. Yeah. So maybe some people thought he could possibly be smart enough to dismember humans.
00:37:46
Speaker
That's a stretch. I mean, I'm questioning Charles, but I don't know about that yet. When asked about Charles, many of the neighbors described him as odd or peculiar. He would, again, according to mental flaws, get up before the sun, leave the house,
00:38:10
Speaker
to tend to whatever business well before his parents even woke up so he's getting up before the son he's leaving before his parents even get up and we don't know what he's doing because we don't know if he's employed but my granny
00:38:30
Speaker
was a 5 a.m. rosary. Oh I think that that's common among almost every elderly person I know is up wide awake like raring to go ready for the day at 4 30 or 5 a.m.
00:38:47
Speaker
And which is kudos to you guys I had to set my alarm to go to work At 6 15 today, and it was a struggle Mm-hmm, but if he's having to if he's getting up before them He could potentially be getting around At 3 o'clock in the morning, right? So not only did he get up before they did he also would come home well after his parents had gone to bed and
00:39:19
Speaker
So we know that his comings and goings were so discreet and at such odd times And his closest neighbors did not even know he lived in the home with him, right? Not only was Charles rarely seen by his neighbors Charles was barely seen by his parents and
00:39:42
Speaker
And you might be saying, well, duh Maggie, you just said that he left the house before they got up and returned after they went to bed. And while that's true, there were times that Charles was home when his parents were. So let me explain the way he chose to communicate with his family. Oh no. Okay. I'm ready. According to, I feel like this is very, um, boo Radley. Okay.
00:40:10
Speaker
You'll get it in a minute. But according to the maid the family had, Charles had turned into sort of a recluse in his own home. He actually lived in the attic. And if you remember, I said blood was found in one other room in the house. Yes. Was it his? It was the attic. Hmm.
00:40:37
Speaker
Hmm. They investigators believe it was the blood of Fred and Edwina, but he lived in Attic and communicated with his parents through notes that he would pass under his bedroom door. What? The family made later said that it was possible that Edwina had not even laid eyes on her own son for five years before her death. And he lived with her.
00:41:07
Speaker
Oh my. Maybe that's why Fred had his eyes gouged out. Maybe he looked at him and Charles didn't want to be seen. Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. I don't know. This is bizarre. Okay.
00:41:27
Speaker
Okay, please continue. When investigators found all this out, they are obviously at this point like, okay, we need to find Charles. And this was a job that proved to be much harder than anticipated. They issued an all points bulletin and launched a nationwide search
00:41:48
Speaker
as the only presumably living member of the household, his insight and possible connection or confession would be really important to be in battle.
Theories Around Charles Rogers' Disappearance and Motives
00:42:02
Speaker
But because he knew how to fly, he could really be anywhere. And the authorities are like, all right, let's check nearby airfields to see if anyone matching his description had left by plane, which was really smart, but nothing turned up.
00:42:18
Speaker
In being so reclusive, Charles left virtually no trail for them to follow. And Allison police never located Charles, not in the weeks, months, or years that have followed. And in 1975, they even decided that they were just going to declare him legally dead. Wow. So nobody has had contact with him since. Nope.
00:42:49
Speaker
Here's my thing. We don't really even know the last time he would have been in the house. Well, that's what I was going to say. Had he committed the murder, I mean.
00:42:58
Speaker
unless he were still in the, but he couldn't have been in the attic when the police came. I was going to say, you know, if he were that much of a recluse, like he could have been up there in the attic and had no idea that anything was going on downstairs because he doesn't come out, you know, except for passing notes or whatever. And then if he just goes straight out, you know, before they get up and then he comes back before they get up,
00:43:25
Speaker
then he wouldn't have thought anything by not seeing them, but the police are searching the house and don't see him, and he had to have known not to come back. And somebody stacked the pots in front of the door.
00:43:37
Speaker
Right. I just think there would be too many things that wouldn't allow for him to be there. Right. Yeah, to be in the house when it happened. And I mean, it does seem pretty cut and dry. Fred and Edwina were killed by their son Charles who snapped and killed his parents. But it may surprise you to know there are some other theories and possible motives out there in the World Wide Web that we're going to talk about today. Okay.
00:44:08
Speaker
So per usual, um, just go in knowing that some are a little out there, but we're going to talk about them anyway. Okay. So theory number one was that Charles was in the CIA. Okay. Could be why nobody even knows that he lives there. Super secretive. All right.
00:44:32
Speaker
I'll follow this. True. And we talked kind of about that in last week's episode. But in 1992, there was a book published that was called The Man on the Grassy Knoll by John R. Craig and Philip A. Rogers that offered the theory that Charles was actually a CIA operative involved in the 1963 assassination of John F. Kennedy. Like he's the man on the grassy knoll?
00:45:03
Speaker
Like he's the one responsible? I think involved, maybe not necessarily responsible. Wow, okay. So according to this work, Charles was a CIA agent who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City and along with Charles Harrelson was one of the two shooters involved in this assassination of President Kennedy.
00:45:31
Speaker
Wow. The author contend that Charles, our Charles, Harrelson, and Shawncey Holt were the three tramps arrested in the plaza after the assassination and that Rogers murdered his parents because his mom was tracking many of his phone calls and found diary entries that kind of had
00:45:58
Speaker
some spicy details in there okay oh in this account charles actually fled to guatemala but there have been lots of people who basically say like this is really
00:46:18
Speaker
like stretching it, this is excessive. Like one publisher said, the authors do a workman-like job with their thesis, but the degree of poetic license in terms of reconstructed dialogue and attributed thought seem excessive here and sourcing is virtually non-existent. Assassination buffs, however, will welcome the book for its novelty value and its easy readability.
00:46:42
Speaker
So it's pretty much been discredited by a lot of people. But if you want to fall down that rabbit hole, Sleuthounds, there is a plethora of information on this theory in the World Wide Web. But theory one is that Charles was in the CIA and he killed his parents because they were on the cusp of finding out. I don't know if this theory explains like
00:47:09
Speaker
the genital mutilation if it explains why the extent of the murder of the draining of the blood and all that. It would have been super quick, you know? Like just execution style, I don't think we would have beat people and cut off their penis. Yeah, I agree.
00:47:34
Speaker
Theory two was one that you hinted at, Allison, and that is that Charles suffered from abuse.
00:47:43
Speaker
And this theory was presented in another book that was published in 2003 called The Icebox Murders. And it was actually written by forensic accountants and amateur sleuths, so just like us, Hugh and Martha Garnier. And the two made an attempt to present a more plausible theory than that of the JFK assassination. OK. So they're still saying he's linked with JFK. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:48:13
Speaker
No, no, no. They agree he's the killer. Oh, okay. But they're saying that his motive was not because he was involved in the CIA. So they're presenting something more believable than killing John F. Kennedy. Instead, the two argue that Fred and Edwina were actually abusive and manipulative parents, doing everything from taking loans out against their son's home to forging his signature on deeds to other properties that he owned.
00:48:43
Speaker
And if you stop and think about it, this theory kind of makes sense to me. Because there are lots of red flags in this story. First is the fact that Charles lived in the home, but no one knew it. Weird.
00:49:08
Speaker
And why go to such extreme lengths to avoid one's parents? Yeah, because I feel like even if you're reclusive, even if you don't go want to go out in public around strangers, I would at least think that your comfort level would extend to your parents. And why only communicate with your parents via notes slid under the door? Right.
00:49:35
Speaker
you know, under normal circumstances, that's not normal. Hiding in your room and slipping notes to your parents sounds like you're being abused. There are a few parts of me that think maybe it's true he was abused and he just snapped and that's what the two authors agreed with. They felt that after years of being like beaten down, financially ripped off,
00:50:04
Speaker
that Charles lashed out and they said in an orgy of violence, smashing his father's head in. They believe that the mother got the more compassionate execution style killing because she may have
00:50:26
Speaker
She didn't partake in the abuse. Yeah. And that's why his murder was more violent, which is what you said earlier. I have to say this theory is making a lot of sense to me so far.
00:50:40
Speaker
In the same Mental Floss article that I've quoted a couple times, it states that the gardeners asserted that a few days after the murders, someone matching Charles' physical description was overheard asking about jobs overseas, but they were using an alias.
00:50:57
Speaker
And they claim that Charles used his contacts in the oil business because remember he worked for Shell to land a job in Mexico and that Charles met a violent end on his own.
00:51:13
Speaker
in Mexico. And they say we're in Honduras, that he died in Honduras with a pickaxe lodged in his head. I don't know how they came up with such a specific way of death. Great. And how they found him? Yeah. They said it was like a wage dispute. So that's interesting. But the Houston Press labeled this book, quote, a fact-based fiction
00:51:42
Speaker
And so like, I don't know. They're saying it's, it has facts behind it, but they take artistic liberties. Yeah. Like a creative nonfiction. So there's no, like I said, concrete evidence to say that Charles was in central America. Right. I mean, we know he had ties to shell, but that's really it. Right.
00:52:12
Speaker
He never went to any other countries that we know of. He went to Alaska, he went to Canada, but I didn't read anywhere where he went to Central America. So I'm not sure how those ties would have been created.
00:52:26
Speaker
The last theory is that it was committed by somebody random and it could be possible that someone random killed Fred and Edwina. We know this isn't out of the realm of possibility. Somebody could have seen an opportunity and just took it. Someone could have been looking for victims and spotted an elderly couple and thought, you know, these will be easy victims. There's lots of reasons why people randomly kill people. Right.
00:52:54
Speaker
What makes this stand out is people being dismembered, I don't think it's very common. It's not really a new concept, but it's not super common. I've researched other cases where dismemberment was involved. And on the Cleveland Police Museum, which was super interactive and really cool, it talked about a case in the 1930s, like 1936 maybe?
00:53:25
Speaker
And, um, it's like a pretty well-known case there, like a serial killer case maybe, even if I'm remembering correctly, but victims were cut up and
00:53:40
Speaker
like brutally murdered. They were decapitated most of the time while they were still alive and no one was ever caught. So, I mean, it does happen. There's dozens of murders, if you Google that, involving dismemberment. The thing that I think would make this theory harder to believe is the fact that the door was locked. I mean, but again, like,
00:54:08
Speaker
When you say locked, was the deadbolt locked or was it just the lock that's on the knob? Because you can lock that and still close the door behind you. Right, yeah. See that? Yeah, was it the deadbolt or the regular? Because if it's the deadbolt, then we have to assume whoever did it had access to a key or maybe found one in the home.
00:54:36
Speaker
But being that the scene was so well cleaned, it makes me wonder if this was an experienced killer. Well, so what do you think? OK, so with the experienced killer comment. I mean, you go back to the theory that their son was in the CIA and he could potentially have training in that. We don't know. But I
00:55:07
Speaker
The reason I'm torn, honestly, is because I think that many of the wounds, like the genital mutilation, the gouging out of the eyes, those do seem to indicate abuse and it being personal.
00:55:29
Speaker
The only thing that's standing out or, I guess, stopping me from saying, yes, absolutely, I think it was, you know, the son or family member, somebody close to them, is the fact that you would have to be so hardened for so long to commit the murder in the way that it was committed. And then, you know, even down to after it's over, cleaning up and then washing
00:56:00
Speaker
the quote unquote meat and putting their bodies into the refrigerator. And I don't know how you could be in that mental state and know these two people. Because even if you had the hatred for your dad, there's also your mom. And that's what's making me stop short of saying it was their son.
00:56:31
Speaker
Well, I just think that the abuse theory is the easiest one and makes the most sense, but I don't think we're ever going to know.
Conclusion: An Open-ended Mystery
00:56:41
Speaker
Maybe the life of Fred and Edwina appeared to be idyllic in 1965, much like the life of Patrick and Mary Maloney and Lamb to the slaughter appeared to be. But something dark and sinister was brewing in their tiny home. Whether it be the fault of their son or someone they didn't know, Fred and Edwina were slaughtered, like lambs in a slaughterhouse, in their own home. The innocence they once knew, gone forever as they were beaten and cut into pieces.
00:57:07
Speaker
After all these years, it's unlikely we will ever get answers to many of the questions we have. I doubt we'll ever know who killed them or why they were killed. Was it because they sensed the involvement of their son in a JFK assassination? Was it because they were abusive? Or was it because someone seized an opportunity? Sadly, the world's never going to know.
00:57:30
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
00:58:00
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.