Transcript
Speaker: Hello Tony here and welcome to the third episode of the TSE podcast.
Speaker: So hello everybody and welcome to another edition of the TSE podcast and I'm thrilled and pleased to say that joining me today we have a special podcast is Darren Smudge Smith who you may know from his YouTube channel Mastering in the Box and he's kindly agreed to join me to talk about everything to do with music about his career a little bit about that Sfamato effect the mastering of the album and without further ado I'm pleased to say welcome Smudge thanks for joining us on today's podcast
Speaker: No worries at all.
Speaker: I'm just waiting for the fanfare.
Speaker: Oh, it's Darren Smith, world famous master engineer.
Speaker: No, no, thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for having me on board.
Speaker: I'm absolutely thrilled to be doing it.
Speaker: I love working on the project.
Speaker: So it's good to talk to you now the album's been released.
Speaker: Yeah, thanks very much, much.
Speaker: We all appreciated your work.
Speaker: You did an absolutely fantastic job, brought all the songs to life.
Speaker: So we were, all of us, absolutely thrilled with it.
Speaker: So, yeah, the reason for the podcast was basically just to get to Lou you a little bit better.
Speaker: I know that we've talked many times on various video calls and we consider each other friends, which is also nice.
Speaker: I thought I'd just ask some questions to find out about, you know, Darren Smudge Smith.
Speaker: Who is he?
Speaker: You know, where did he come from?
Speaker: How did he get into mastering?
Speaker: Sounds great.
Speaker: So right off the bat, here's a question for you.
Speaker: What are your earliest musical memories?
Speaker: Oh, that's a great question.
Speaker: My earliest musical memory was more like a nightmare.
Speaker: Because this was back in the day, now I was born in 83, and it must have been around 86, 87, and my mum had one of those old hi-fis with the really awful record player, and she had this awful Cliff Richard collection.
Speaker: And that was the time when I realised that Cliff Richard is not my cup of tea.
Speaker: So my favourite song at the time, believe it or not, this shows how limited my exposure was, my favourite song was Bruce Willis' version of Under the Boardwalk, because that was the best song out of her poor collection.
Speaker: So that would be probably my most earliest musical memory, was Under the Boardwalk by Bruce Willis.
Speaker: I remember that song.
Speaker: We come from a similar music background.
Speaker: I remember that my parents used to have this old gramophone radio all-in-one combined piece of furniture.
Speaker: And I remember my mother used to put on records by Frank Ifield.
Speaker: I think the song was called I Remember You.
Speaker: She played that forever and ever and ever.
Speaker: Also, Jim Reeves, she was a big Jim Reeves fan and used to play a track called Distant Drums.
Speaker: And that used to go on.
Speaker: And there was another song...
Speaker: wandering star by was it hank marvin i can't remember the name yeah it was from a very very famous um very very famous um movie but yeah i mean that's my first experiences um about music but it's interesting because um once i'd heard those songs it kind of got the bug yes i was i was a little bit different i don't know because i can't i
Speaker: Music for me very early was... I've always loved singing, and I've always loved... I've just loved music, even from the early days.
Speaker: We're talking like two, three, four years old.
Speaker: But for me, really kind of...
Speaker: I really got the hook with music, probably when I was eight or nine.
Speaker: And as you did then, that was obviously when everyone used to listen to the charts and copy tapes and stuff like that from the charts and things like that.
Speaker: But my brother done me a mixtape.
Speaker: And on this mixtape, there must have been songs from Guns N' Roses, Soundgarden, Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Speaker: I'm trying to think of who else.
Speaker: Pearl Jam.
Speaker: And that, for me, was just Aerosmith was on there.
Speaker: And Aerosmith, for me, that was just like, that was my opening to the world of music.
Speaker: And that was probably my first real big experience.
Speaker: Because I listened to the charts and stuff, and the charts was more varied in the...
Speaker: And obviously in the, that would have been late 80s, early 90s, it was much more varied than it is today.
Speaker: But that mixtape was probably, I still remember that now, and that was my, yeah, this is my type of music.
Speaker: That was that kind of aha moment.
Speaker: Yeah, this is what I like.
Speaker: I used to stay up late at night and tape the John Peel show.
Speaker: I remember that quite distinctly.
Speaker: Standing there with a small little cassette recorder, hit the play and record button and just hold it to the radio.
Speaker: That was something I used to do quite a lot because at that time there was a lot of up and coming bands like the Mekons and the Fall and the Sex Pistols and they wouldn't get any airtime on normal radio so the only way to actually find out about these bands was to tape John Peel.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I was probably a little bit more mainstream at the time, but it was kind of, I still remember Sunday afternoons when you used to have to get the old cassette player and you used to have to press play and record at the same time.
Speaker: Then you'd stop it when they had the ad breaks and you'd press it again and just so you didn't have all the ads coming through.
Speaker: But yeah.
Speaker: you know, that was kind of like that era just opened up my musical tastes.
Speaker: And I even remember, I think that was when Bat Out of Hell 2 from Meatloaf came out.
Speaker: And obviously I would do anything for love and it was in the charts.
Speaker: And I think that was kind of the era when it started to define my musical tastes with that kind of rock, you know, that kind of rock inspired music.
Speaker: That was really for me when I started to really get into music more.
Speaker: So leading on to the next question, which particular artists, are there any, or bands, or maybe even sound engineers that maybe you would cite as major influences?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, it really is a great question.
Speaker: Certainly from bands, my tastes have changed over time.
Speaker: One major influence musically was Aerosmith.
Speaker: As soon as I started to get into Aerosmith, I was just absolutely mad on Aerosmith.
Speaker: So all my friends at school will be listening to Aerosmith
Speaker: bands like Green Day and, you know, Red Hot Chili Peppers and the like at the time.
Speaker: And I was still listening to stuff from like the 70s and the 80s of Aerosmith.
Speaker: And I was hooked on them for such a long time, hooked to the degree where I would almost not listen to anything else.
Speaker: So they were like the massive, massive influence at the time for me.
Speaker: But then it kind of got to, it kind of started to evolve.
Speaker: And I remember there was this one TV program that was, it was on Channel 4, and it was something around the top 10 stadium rock bands of which Aerosmith was one.
Speaker: So that's why I started watching it.
Speaker: But that one program alone started getting me interested in bands like Poison and Kiss and Metallica.
Speaker: That Metallica one was probably the most influential one because at the time, that was when they released the album S&M with the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra.
Speaker: And that was my first experience with Metallica at the time when I thought, whoa, this is amazing.
Speaker: I really, really dug that and I went out and then bought the tape of the S&M Live with the orchestra and I loved that.
Speaker: So that was probably when it really kind of started to broaden my horizons.
Speaker: Poison was a big influence.
Speaker: That kind of 80s hair metal, I kind of really got into that kind of thing.
Speaker: And then as kind of time moves on and time moved on, I started more influence into things like Soundgarden and Pearl Jam.
Speaker: They still obviously big influences, obviously.
Speaker: Chris Cornell, when he was doing his solo stuff, and then obviously when they got reformed and suddenly when he passed away, but still now, you know, I still listen to all the Chris Cornell and Soundgarden stuff.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: Musically, it can go from anything from hard rock, blues rock, blues, metal, you know, all of those kind of genres.
Speaker: I love all of it, especially now as I'm kind of more musically aware, let's say.
Speaker: But from an engineer's standpoint, it's more difficult to kind of pinpoint, because I don't have anyone who would say, oh yeah, definitely this or definitely them or...
Speaker: I'm inspired by lots of different engineers.
Speaker: I think probably from a mastering perspective, I really follow people like obviously Ian Shepard.
Speaker: He's a great inspiration.
Speaker: But I like people like Bob Katz, obviously, who's just a fantastic person to speak to.
Speaker: but also some of his mentees and around diversity.
Speaker: I'm big in pushing diversity.
Speaker: And one of the engineers who I was made aware of was a lady called Piper Payne, who was just amazing, fantastic master and engineer.
Speaker: So there's all sorts of influences from an engineering perspective, but not one that I would say really everything.
Speaker: I put all of my eggs in one basket in one person.
Speaker: I'll kind of be inspired by lots of people.
Speaker: That is a very good question.
Speaker: Yeah, but they're good answers too.
Speaker: I'm praising my own questions here, which is obviously not what I'm meant to do.
Speaker: Yeah, I specifically, Hugh Badgham, I was a big Genesis fan and XTC fan.
Speaker: He's done some great work with both those bands.
Speaker: More recently, Greg Wells, I think who's actually done some production and recording for world-known artists like Adele.
Speaker: But I've listened to a few clips of him on YouTube and I just like the way that he talks about audio and audio engineering.
Speaker: Yeah, I think for me what really makes it stand out for me is when you find that connection with someone who gets it on almost, I don't want to s ay a spiritual level, it is almost kind of like a spiritual level with you in terms of when they share the same philosophies.
Speaker: And it's kind of like, I'm probably more attracted to the art, maybe more the producers, say maybe like the Jack Douglas, obviously from Aerosmith.
Speaker: And obviously with Warren Hewitt, who's produced like a pro stuff, he's done work with Aerosmith.
Speaker: But Bob Rock is more the producers, the producer engineers, where they share more around their feel for music than obviously more the technical stuff.
Speaker: I think that's kind of more for me, I'm more drawn to their influences and then take that into the technical realm rather than focus more on the technical side and then look to make those more emotional changes, if you see what I'm saying.
Speaker: I focus more on the emotional influences first and then the technical comes after.
Speaker: Is there one trick that you could say that you learned from somebody who is a famous engineer or mastering engineer?
Speaker: Everyone has one trick.
Speaker: You hear about the side compression ducking trick.
Speaker: You hear about all kinds of tricks.
Speaker: Is there one trick or anybody that you watched or maybe on YouTube or you read somewhere and that was a bit of a light bulb moment where you said, aha, and then really pushed you forward in your mastering journey?
Speaker: Yeah, there's probably one that springs to mind.
Speaker: I wouldn't say it's really an aha moment.
Speaker: It was more of a case of, you know what, I totally see why you've done that.
Speaker: And it's something that I do, it's something that I've followed through.
Speaker: And that was Piper Payne.
Speaker: I think she was doing a Waves plugins video.
Speaker: And she was mentioning around, you know, one of the biggest challenges is limiting and people over-limiting and over-compressing with the limiter.
Speaker: And she just said, well, it's kind of like, well, I don't do too much of that.
Speaker: What I do is I would normalize the audio first.
Speaker: So without going too technical, obviously, when you're thinking about the peak level, and if you've got a load of headroom, she would actually look to normalize the audio to get it to a, I don't want to say a standard level, but a level she feels comfortable with.
Speaker: So you're not then focusing too much on pushing loads again into the limiter or using multiple limiters.
Speaker: And that one for me was like, I totally understand the logic of that.
Speaker: And that's something that I would use.
Speaker: It's not something I use on every single master.
Speaker: But if there's a case of where I feel that, you know, there's loads of headroom, but you don't want to compromise the track too much, then that's one trick that I would say, yeah, maybe look at normalizing the audio to get it to a regulated level before you do anything else.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a very good answer.
Speaker: Very interesting.
Speaker: Like most of us who get involved in audio, we probably started learning to play an instrument when we were young and probably joined many bands, some of them terrible, some of them good.
Speaker: Do you play any instruments so much and have you played in any bands?
Speaker: I haven't played in any bands, but I do play... I play the guitar.
Speaker: So that one for me, I was... Like I said, music has been with me for years.
Speaker: And I remember going back to school, my music teacher said to me, you really should learn to start playing an instrument.
Speaker: And I said, well, can I play drums?
Speaker: I was massively into the drums at the time.
Speaker: And she said, no.
Speaker: I said, well, I'm not going to take up music then.
Speaker: And that was my first rebellious act.
Speaker: And it wasn't until I was...
Speaker: 16, 17, probably about 16, 17.
Speaker: And a friend of mine was, he's an amazing guitarist.
Speaker: And I thought, you know what, I'm going to start learning how to play guitar.
Speaker: And yeah, they all ridiculed me for a while when I was trying to play covers of The Offsprings.
Speaker: I'm trying to think of the album at the time.
Speaker: It was Americana and I was trying to play that and they all really killed me.
Speaker: But yeah, I've been playing guitar ever since.
Speaker: The guitar is my instrument of choice and I love it.
Speaker: And yes, I play guitar.
Speaker: I recently started to get more into keyboards.
Speaker: So my daughter, she's 11 and she's shown an interest in keyboards.
Speaker: So for me, it's a music creation tool.
Speaker: that's very inspiring.
Speaker: But guitar's the main one.
Speaker: And I've been playing for some 23 years at this point.
Speaker: So that is my big instrument.
Speaker: When you pick up your guitar, do you have like a go-to song that you try and play?
Speaker: Or is there just a chord that you automatically play without thinking?
Speaker: See, I'm so inspired by...
Speaker: Yeah, certainly from a lot of the hard rock stuff, I'm not like an ACDC power chord type guy.
Speaker: When I pick it up, I play more riff-based stuff.
Speaker: So generally it's going to be something like the E minor scale, E minor pentatonic, and then just riff.
Speaker: And it's generally something about E minor, E minor because you've got the open E string and listen to all those Metallica songs and things like that.
Speaker: So that's probably where I would start.
Speaker: But it's, you know, I'm so into so many different styles and, you know, even some of the stuff now where I listen to things like Deep Purple and Rainbow and those Richard Blackmore inspired riffs and
Speaker: there's so much you can do with a guitar.
Speaker: And I think for me is it's exploring avenues which aren't necessarily just chord based, probably because I'm also very poor at learning chords.
Speaker: It's kind of, if I can, if I can, uh, you know, ignore triads and where to find triads on the fretboard, I will, I'd rather just try and play single notes, but, um,
Speaker: there's always something that goes on and I've probably written you know very recently something like 20 riff ideas and I'm like I've said to you I want to make a I want to put an album out this year and I've got all these ideas but now it's actually sitting down and actually starting to construct them into more of a formal concept let's say but yeah it normally starts off with some down picking chugs with some little riffs off the side of it.
Speaker: Yeah, I just had visions of you picking up your guitar and playing Enter the Sandman.
Speaker: I think that probably might be... Yeah, many a music shop back in the day got me murdering that song whilst trying out guitars, I can tell you that.
Speaker: Yeah, excellent answer.
Speaker: Yeah, I want to find out a little bit more about obviously your journey into becoming a mastering engineer and I'm just curious when you made that crossover.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: How did you get started on mixering, mixing and then mastering?
Speaker: How did that journey begin for you?
Speaker: Well, for me, it all started probably when I was in my early 20s.
Speaker: So obviously I was playing, I started playing guitar when I was around about 17, 16, 17.
Speaker: I never had aspirations to join a band, but I always had aspirations to create music.
Speaker: And I think I must have been in my early 20s and I got this, I had this old laptop at the time.
Speaker: And that's obviously when companies like Lion 6 were introducing these guitar-based interfaces.
Speaker: And I had one of those, I'm trying to think what it was called now, it's like a Line 6.
Speaker: I don't even think it was a UX1, I think it was the one below that.
Speaker: It was literally a small box you could plug the guitar into, USB connected into the laptop.
Speaker: And I started to mess around with that and got into recording the guitar.
Speaker: And then that kind of, as you know, you kind of get hooked and it spirals and you think, oh, okay, let's think about some drum programming.
Speaker: Then started getting into the tune track stuff with the Easy Drummer and started doing that and then started to double into DAWs and recording.
Speaker: And that's how it basically started.
Speaker: Then after a few years, I kind of got into teaching myself with the mixing side of things and
Speaker: then getting into the mastering.
Speaker: And I started to really push the mixing side at that time and started to then technically teach myself how to do it by watching loads of YouTube videos.
Speaker: And I started to get involved with the, once again, the Warren Hewitt with the Producer Like a Pro Academy and started to delve into that and started to do a lot of mixing from there.
Speaker: And then as time moved on, I really, I think my mindset is really analytically focused.
Speaker: And obviously the day jobs I've had were all around analytics and things like that.
Speaker: So, you know, I come from a corporate background working in, back in the day, it was working in insurance and working in fraud investigation and working, you know, my first job, actually my first job,
Speaker: proper job was working back in the old tax office.
Speaker: And this still makes me laugh to this day.
Speaker: People say to me, my kids say to me about GCSEs and this, and I say, well, I got me, I think I walked away from school with three B's, six C's, and a D. And they say to me, well, what's the D?
Speaker: And I say, maths.
Speaker: And they say, well, what's the D in maths?
Speaker: And I hated maths.
Speaker: And I say, I just hated maths.
Speaker: And in every single job I had pretty much in the corporate world, it all involved maths.
Speaker: And it's like, how can you, you know, for somebody who hated maths so much, that was kind of got into that line of work.
Speaker: But there was always that music influence in the side and the music and learning how to play guitar and record my own stuff.
Speaker: And it got to a point where I was like, no, I really like the technical side of the audio engineering.
Speaker: So then really got involved in a big way with the mixing and then self-teaching the mastering.
Speaker: And then with the mastering, it was always kind of, you'd always see these people saying, well, you can't master unless you've got this gear or you can't master if you've got that and et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: But I found th at a love of mastering because for me personally,
Speaker: Mix It is great and I enjoy doing it, but you can get so caught down in the weeds.
Speaker: And where I feel mastering is almost taking someone's already preconceived idea of where they're taking the song.
Speaker: But mastering, if you can connect with it on an emotional level and say, okay, I understand what they've done.
Speaker: And it's like, but I can enhance it by doing this, that or the other.
Speaker: And just almost taking it to that next tier.
Speaker: I get so much more enjoyment from doing that than necessarily one day sitting there for an hour thinking, why does this snare sound like crap?
Speaker: And it's like, you know what I mean?
Speaker: You can get so bogged down in the weeds trying to EQ and compress a snare.
Speaker: And with mastering, it's a totally different concept.
Speaker: And you're almost trying to... The way I kind of picture it is it's almost like taking...
Speaker: Trying to analyse a puzzle, but it's almost like a three quarters complete puzzle.
Speaker: How can I complete this puzzle?
Speaker: And it's almost like that, but it's a way to connect more with the music, I feel, rather than just having this relatively complete blank slate.
Speaker: I just connected a bit more in mastering.
Speaker: So that was my journey into mastering and the fact that my rebellious streak was always like, you don't have to have this bit of gear, you don't have to have that, I'm going to prove you wrong.
Speaker: So that was really where I kind of started to get that kind of mindset of wanting to help others learn how to master as well.
Speaker: That's really interesting because I think actually my experience as a mix engineer, I think typically a lot of mix engineers think that mastering engineers are science geeks or something.
Speaker: And your answer is quite interesting because it highlights for me is that that's completely the opposite.
Speaker: I mean, of course...
Speaker: we all have a background in music and the way that you describe, you know, you have a feeling for the music and you want to bring out the best of a particular song or you want to highlight certain aspects of a mix that are pleasing and just give each individual track that final polish.
Speaker: I think that's a very interesting answer.
Speaker: That's very good.
Speaker: Yeah, well, I think that...
Speaker: I can see where people get this idea that master engineers are these geeks because there is a lot of technical stuff that goes on and there are master engineers that want to focus more on the technical rather than the, let's say, the emotional impacts that something has.
Speaker: But for me, the way I approach it is it is very much, you know, music is a story.
Speaker: Every song is written.
Speaker: It's a story that someone's trying to capture in a moment of time and express that story in a musical way.
Speaker: Going into mastering with a purely technical aspect, thinking, well, there's too much of this or there's too much of that, I don't think it does the song any good.
Speaker: And I think that's the thing is you've got to be able to almost take a step back and highlight what is it the artist's trying to tell and how can you then take that to that next level.
Speaker: And that's the way I approach it.
Speaker: Yes, there's technical stuff that goes along with it,
Speaker: But it's not the be all end all.
Speaker: Sometimes the biggest thing is trying to make that listener engage with the story that the artist is trying to tell.
Speaker: So that's the way I approach mastering.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And as I can say, we were totally thrilled with your mastering job on our album, Where Are the Angels?
Speaker: It really took it to the next level.
Speaker: I had a big decision to make because I thought, I can master this.
Speaker: This is going to be no problem.
Speaker: I'll just go on to a couple of YouTube videos, just fire up Ozone 9, just hit the AI plug-in, and then I'll have a master ready in five minutes.
Speaker: But then I thought, well, we've invested two years of our lives into this song, and we really want to present it, obviously, in a professional way.
Speaker: And then, yeah, I decided, well, I think we need a proper mastering engineer.
Speaker: And that's how we stumbled across you as the wrong word, because I've been following your Mastering in the Box channel for many years.
Speaker: And I thought, yeah, this is a guy I think we could work with.
Speaker: And then we all decided to stump up the cash, because, of course, nothing's free in this world, right?
Speaker: And we were totally thrilled with the album that you did.
Speaker: Which leads me on to another question.
Speaker: Are there any other projects that you've been involved in, for example?
Speaker: Are there any other artists?
Speaker: I wouldn't expect that you'll say Aerosmith, but are there any other projects that you can tell us about that you enjoy the experience?
Speaker: Or maybe if you can even recommend that we look at these people up and have a listen?
Speaker: Yeah, well, it's quite a few different projects I've been involved in.
Speaker: Like I say, a lot of the work that I tend to do is more towards independent artists.
Speaker: It seems to be... It goes hand-in-hand with my passion for helping others.
Speaker: I think sometimes, you know, don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to do at some point down the line some label work, and that's certainly a golden ambition of where I want to go.
Speaker: But I don't want to stop doing the independent work because I feel...
Speaker: Like I said, there's so many stories out there that people want to tell.
Speaker: There are a few good recent projects I've done, obviously, TSE.
Speaker: Everyone needs to check the TSE album out because it is a great album.
Speaker: But there's other work I've done for, so obviously through my YouTube work, I've got connected with a few other YouTube artists.
Speaker: One of them was a chap whose channel is IDDQD Sound.
Speaker: And he was very involved in the Reaper, the Reaper DAW tutorial side of things.
Speaker: And we built up a bit of a friendship.
Speaker: And I mastered one of his songs called the Curtis Star Wars, which was a great song.
Speaker: That once again is very emotional.
Speaker: It's got that emotive feel throughout.
Speaker: So I really enjoyed doing that one.
Speaker: And that was one that was a little bit more unique because I got to play around with some volume automation in the mastering stage.
Speaker: So that was really, really good.
Speaker: There was a song for my friend Mike Robinson, who also does a Reaper-based channel.
Speaker: So he's got a band that they've done.
Speaker: I'm trying to think what the actual... I know they've done a... It's called A Little Hostile, and I know it's a cover.
Speaker: And I'll have to let you know the name of the artist because he doesn't go under his own name.
Speaker: It's actually the band name.
Speaker: But that was a real good fun one to do.
Speaker: So that was that one.
Speaker: I did an album for an artist.
Speaker: He was a local artist and it was actually a good experience because he actually come to see me in person.
Speaker: And we obviously built up... That was nice to have that kind of personal connection rather than just emails and things.
Speaker: And once again, that was why I enjoyed the TSE side of things because we had that... Yeah, it was all over video, but at least we could have that kind of... That personal interaction.
Speaker: But that was a real good one.
Speaker: And he's an artist by the name of Nick Graveswell, and he done an album called Songs to Drink To.
Speaker: And that was a fun album to work on too.
Speaker: But there's loads of different bits and bobs that I've been working on album-wise or song-wise...
Speaker: Not all of it's kind of released, and a lot of it's on Spotify, but it's a little bit more difficult with permissions and things like that to go into more depth in tutorial side of things.
Speaker: But yeah, those are the ones that really kind of sprung out to say, the ones I've enjoyed that I can mention anyway.
Speaker: So yeah, there's bits coming in all the time, different songs and stuff.
Speaker: August Flamme.
Speaker: Yeah, actually, what would be nice if we could dig out some links for some of these people you mentioned and just include them in the podcast notes.
Speaker: This is only our third podcast, so I'm not 100% certain whether that's possible or even if I can do it.
Speaker: But you mentioned quite a few people there.
Speaker: And being an independent musician myself, I think it's great to share the love around.
Speaker: It will be great to find some links and give all these wonderful, talented artists at least a link and some exposure.
Speaker: Absolutely, yeah, because most of these songs form part of my portfolio, so yeah, we can get some links out, that's not a problem.
Speaker: Yeah, that would be good.
Speaker: A change of pace for music, we always credit you when we release anything with the name Darren Smudge Smith.
Speaker: How did the name Smudge come into being?
Speaker: See, it's one of those things, if you ask a smith about their surname Smudge, they would say, how have you not heard of the Smudge-dick name?
Speaker: But obviously, if you're not a smith, you probably haven't heard of it.
Speaker: It's one of those things.
Speaker: Now, I've tried to track down the traces of this story, and I think it's...
Speaker: Obviously, a lot of this is, let's say, it's turning into folklore now.
Speaker: And I think it's, from what I understand, it goes back to World War I. And it goes back to the surname Smith.
Speaker: So Smith is, I like to call it the most popular surname in the UK.
Speaker: Some may say it's the most common.
Speaker: I prefer to use the term popular.
Speaker: But if he was a Smith in going back to World War I, it went basically untrustworthiness.
Speaker: And if you was trusted, you were a smudge.
Speaker: And if you were not so trusted, you were a smithy.
Speaker: So that is basically what I can understand about the folklore.
Speaker: So obviously when it was growing up, a lot of my friends used to call me Smudge, which was great fun because my brother was called Smudge and he hated that they called me Smudge.
Speaker: So we both became Smudges.
Speaker: But that's basically where it is.
Speaker: It's obviously Smudger Smith.
Speaker: And that's how it come.
Speaker: And then obviously through my many visits to many of the local pubs, my Smudge stuck there.
Speaker: And most people didn't actually know me as Darren.
Speaker: They would always know me as Smudge.
Speaker: And it was quite interesting when the Christmas cards came around.
Speaker: They say, who's this Darren Smith?
Speaker: And I was like, that's me.
Speaker: I was like, you're not Darren, you're Smudge.
Speaker: He's like, yeah, it's me in his name.
Speaker: So that is the history as I know it in terms of the Smith, Smudge and Smithy folklore, let's say.
Speaker: That's interesting.
Speaker: I mean, I had a few nicknames at school.
Speaker: None of them that I actually care to remember, to be quite honest, because they were all reasonably cruel.
Speaker: No, that was very interesting, actually.
Speaker: I didn't know anything about the links, obviously, to the history of the name, and especially with World War I. I'm a bit of a historian myself.
Speaker: That was my specialist subject at school history, and I didn't know anything about that.
Speaker: Next question I wanted to ask was, when and how did you come up for the idea for your YouTube channel, Mastering in the Box?
Speaker: Well, that was drawn out of the actually doing the mastering itself.
Speaker: And like I say, it was...
Speaker: There is a little bit of, I'm not that rebellious, but there is a bit of a rebellious street.
Speaker: When it comes to people who say you can't do this and you can't do that, I normally turn around and say, watch me.
Speaker: And I normally do it.
Speaker: And it got to this stage where there were so many people at the time saying, well, you can't master digitally.
Speaker: You have to have this room that's, you know, your speakers have to be valued at least £60,000.
Speaker: You have to have the top-end converters and you have to have this perfectly treated room and you have to have all this outboard gear.
Speaker: And it was a time when there were a few people champion mastering in the box, i.e.
Speaker: in the computer, using the Distro Audio workstation and plugins.
Speaker: And that's basically what I'd been doing.
Speaker: It was my rebellious side to say, you know what?
Speaker: There are so many people out there who can do this, who should do this because it gives them an input or an in into releasing music.
Speaker: That was really the inspiration.
Speaker: Mastering in the box was all about digital mastering.
Speaker: So that was really the inspiration.
Speaker: was drawing from that kind of i will show people that you can do it um using their computer you can do it in a home studio you can do it with headphones etc etc and um yeah that's really the inspiration behind the youtube channel showing not only people the skills i'd learned over time but also how you can do it specifically in a home environment using some basic equipment quite frankly
Speaker: No, the videos are great.
Speaker: I've subscribed now for a couple of years and anyone listening, if anyone's listening to this podcast, I thoroughly recommend that you check out Smudge's YouTube channel, Mastering in the Box, subscribe, watch a few videos.
Speaker: And generally I would say it's not all about mastering.
Speaker: I mean, hidden in there, of course, are just some great tips about sort of engineering and engineering.
Speaker: music audio in general, which I think that anybody who is involved in mixing or mastering would find very, very useful.
Speaker: You have another business model called progressive sound audio.
Speaker: How does this differ from music in the box, if it actually differs at all?
Speaker: It's a great question.
Speaker: And it was born out of the idea where, as a business person, as a, I don't like the word, but as an entrepreneur, business person, a freelancer, let's say, Master in the Box was a great way to obviously show people, educate, etc., etc.
Speaker: But it is one of the challenges with that is everyone sees you as an educator rather than an actual, necessarily an engineer yourself.
Speaker: So for me, it was trying to, how can I show my skills as an engineer as well as an educator?
Speaker: So I decided at that point it was probably a good idea to separate the two brands.
Speaker: So I was then thinking of brand names and thinking about a lot of the ethos around mastering the box.
Speaker: And it was actually the word that stuck to me was progressive.
Speaker: It's not a case of you have to be stuck in this domain of...
Speaker: analog you have to do you have to do it the old way music progresses technology progresses sound progresses so that's where i got the idea of progressive sound audio so the differences between mastering the box and progressive sound audio is effectively the progressive sound audio line is more around um me as a as an engineer and then the mastering box is more around the educational side of things so that's how it's kind of developed
Speaker: But Progressive Sound Audio, because it is progressive, it's also an avenue for me to share with people new technologies, new techniques, new ways of doing things.
Speaker: And it's just another platform for me to help others in various different guises.
Speaker: So they're the real main differences between the two brand names.
Speaker: Yeah, that was key.
Speaker: I remember when I was looking around for somebody to master our album, our entry into our contact with you was actually through progressive sound audio rather than sort of any contact information we found on mastering in the box.
Speaker: I think that is key because I'm still quite new to this whole business of working as an entrepreneur, let's say.
Speaker: And there are, obviously every day is a learning day and you learn new ways and you learn new strategies.
Speaker: And it was one of the things I learned very quickly through actually analyzing my own business that I needed to kind of separate the two out.
Speaker: And I think for anyone who wants to do mastering and they use, say, YouTube as a platform, and if you put educational content out there,
Speaker: You've also got to have it in the back of your mind that you need to be promoting to them.
Speaker: You are also an engineer who's available to take on work at the same time.
Speaker: So it was something for me, and it's a tip to anyone, if you do YouTube content,
Speaker: Just think about how you can promote yourself in a way that's going to also showcase you as an engineer that you are hireable, quite frankly.
Speaker: So it is a complete learning curve for me.
Speaker: Sometimes a minefield.
Speaker: And I love it.
Speaker: I love everything about it.
Speaker: So, yeah, I certainly can't grumble.
Speaker: What's the most difficult thing about the whole process, this life balance, your love of music, the love of audio and trying to make a living out of it?
Speaker: What's the most difficult aspect about trying to juggle or balance the two things if there is any problem?
Speaker: I think the difficulty is probably keeping yourself up to date with a lot of the business side of things.
Speaker: So for a prime example is unless you're well into website building and website creation,
Speaker: I think the thing is, a lot of people are in that mindset, well, I'll build a website and people will find me.
Speaker: People won't find you just because you build a website.
Speaker: So then you've got to start thinking about things like your SEO, so your search engine optimization.
Speaker: How are you going to tell Google who you are and what you do so people can find you?
Speaker: So it's very easy to get so into the creative side that you've also got to think, actually, you've also got to run a business at the same time.
Speaker: So that's probably the biggest challenge, I would say, is trying to keep those elements fresh.
Speaker: Yeah, we all want to be creating music and we all want to get involved in the music creation process, but sometimes you've also got to focus on the business side as well.
Speaker: So that's trying to get the balance between the two and really focus on how you can push your business forward as well.
Speaker: But it's also doing it in the mindset of, you know, I think there's so many people out there thinking about money, money, money.
Speaker: And sometimes there's someone, I think it might have been Graham Cochran for the recording revolution who mentioned this.
Speaker: And he mentioned something along the lines of think about yourself as a servant to others.
Speaker: Because if you start thinking about yourself as a servant to others, people will want to come to you.
Speaker: And I think that's one of the big key takeaways I've found as a business person is,
Speaker: If you are always acting in service of others, you will find that people want to come to you and hire you and spend money with you rather than thinking about how you can make the next quick buck or quick quid.
Speaker: That's something as well that I'd recommend to anyone.
Speaker: If you want to start building the business in the audio industry, think about yourself, how you can service others and add benefit to others rather than thinking about it in the way of how can I earn money from this.
Speaker: That's a really good answer.
Speaker: I was going to mention Graham Cochran and the Recording Revolution because he started his YouTube journey with educational videos.
Speaker: It was a very good channel and I learned an awful lot from actually watching videos from the Recording Revolution.
Speaker: But then I think a few years ago he decided that actually he was going to leave the Recording Revolution and concentrate on giving coaching advice on how to set up a business.
Speaker: Is that a leap you think you're ever likely to make?
Speaker: No, no, no, I don't think so.
Speaker: I mean, the business side of things, I think there's just too many facets to it.
Speaker: I don't think, because if I look at some of the business side of things now and you've got people who are, you know, you've got people who are SEO experts, website experts, then you've got the marketing experts and you've got so many different fields at play.
Speaker: I envy anyone who can take all that work and then provide it into some kind of, let's say, meaningful educational platform, because for me, there's just too much to go on.
Speaker: So it's not something I would particularly look to be doing.
Speaker: I love my music too much, so, you know, it's...
Speaker: it's one of those things, they always, it's always that old adage, when you get to do something that you enjoy, it doesn't feel like work, and that's the thing for me, is this doesn't feel, you know, I'll go into it every day, there's always something new, getting to engage with different people, that for me is what I love doing, and it's all, you know, all music related, so that's where I see myself getting very old doing, so, uh,
Speaker: Yeah, I can attest to that.
Speaker: I remember we were really proud after two years that we had an album.
Speaker: It was an ambition of the entire band.
Speaker: And then we had this album and it was mastered and we were totally excited about it.
Speaker: And then came for me a bit of a surprise, trying to market the thing and get it out there.
Speaker: I remember we had problems even designing the artwork with the company that printed the CDs for us.
Speaker: It took about four weeks to get all that sorted out.
Speaker: And as you said, there's a whole lot of...
Speaker: discipline, there's a whole lot of information, there's a whole lot of things that independent artists probably maybe are not aware of that suddenly you're confronted with.
Speaker: So great, you have your music, you love it, it sounds great, but then you want the whole world to listen to it.
Speaker: And then I found that some of the business aspects you talked about, about all these algorithms that you need to pay attention to on Google to get your ideas, your music actually heard by a larger audience, is a complete mystery to most independent artists, I feel.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's just in life in general, though, in the way that technology has moved.
Speaker: You know, you think about business and music and music artists, and it's not like it was 25 years ago when the way to connect with people would be you'd go out and play live gigs, or you'd advertise in the local paper to your local customers.
Speaker: life just doesn't work like that as much anymore.
Speaker: It's such a, you know, certainly with music, it's a global audience and it's like, well, how do you reach that global audience?
Speaker: And that is the big part of it is, is finding ways to continue to reach new audiences that's going to help you grow as an, as an artist and as a, as a business and,
Speaker: Yeah, it is a challenge and there's always something else.
Speaker: You know, it's even things down to logo design and things.
Speaker: Oh, it's just, it can get so, yeah, it can get frustrating.
Speaker: But it's, you know, I think another thing as well, and it's probably something that I'll recommend to anyone, is to build a team.
Speaker: Build a team around you.
Speaker: And it's kind of, you can build a team.
Speaker: That doesn't mean you have to have an employee network.
Speaker: But if you can build a team around you of people that you know and trust,
Speaker: Like you've done here, it's kind of like you could have put ozone on and clipped the mastering system, but actually, as a mastering engineer, you've got to understand that
Speaker: It's not your song.
Speaker: You are part of a team to create the song or to make it sound better for the artist.
Speaker: And that's it.
Speaker: That whole example should go through all of life.
Speaker: If you can get people you know and trust to help you progress, you're going to flourish.
Speaker: Yeah, I totally agree with you.
Speaker: That's a really good answer.
Speaker: So this is going to be a short question.
Speaker: And knowing you as I do, I think the answer is going to be a little bit extensive.
Speaker: So I'll ask the question anyway, because we talked about it offline.
Speaker: What is your current DAW of choice?
Speaker: Yeah, it's a tricky question because...
Speaker: I think the thing is, it kind of goes back to people say, oh, this is the best DAW, that's the best DAW, or this is the best DAW.
Speaker: My opinion is simple.
Speaker: There is no best DAW.
Speaker: Because I don't think there is one.
Speaker: There's so many people being inspired by certain pieces of software.
Speaker: Historically, I've always been the Studio One guy, and that's how we met.
Speaker: And all of my YouTube, or most of my YouTube content is based around Studio One.
Speaker: But it's getting to a stage where as my skills develop and as my needs change, it does get to a stage where I need to start thinking about things that are more geared towards my skill set and where I want to progress as a brand.
Speaker: So Studio One is something I've historically been associated with.
Speaker: I think it's a good product.
Speaker: But, you know, if I'm perfectly honest, I think it is more geared towards the songwriting and creation process, more the mastering side of things.
Speaker: So I am exploring different avenues in terms of DAWs.
Speaker: There are lots of great ones out there at the moment.
Speaker: And it's kind of certainly as technology moves on with Dolby Atmos and things, there are going to be other avenues that I'm going to be exploring as well.
Speaker: Certainly things like Cubase is one that I'm looking at with the Dolby Atmos side of things.
Speaker: I've got a copy of that, so I'm using that.
Speaker: One that many people haven't even heard of is Simplitude.
Speaker: And it's one that doesn't get a lot of recognition because it's just, I don't think it's seen as something that's in the same, let's say the same bracket, something like a Pro Tools or a Cubase or a Logic, et cetera.
Speaker: So Amplitude is one I'm looking into now because it's a product that's associated with another product called Sequoia.
Speaker: Now Sequoia is massive in the mastering industry.
Speaker: It really is a high-level mastering grade DAW.
Speaker: But for me, I'd like to have bits that can do other bits as well rather than just having a bespoke mastering software.
Speaker: So I'm exploring Simplitude, so I'll have a look at that as well.
Speaker: WaveLab's going to be one I'm going to look at as well.
Speaker: So I'm probably in between doors, but there's loads of great software out there.
Speaker: There really is.
Speaker: I think it's...
Speaker: You can almost, I would say just if anyone's out there wants a bit of advice on choosing what software, choose one that inspires you.
Speaker: Choose one that's got the basic feature set and just think, is this a piece of software that I want to open every day?
Speaker: And if it is, use that.
Speaker: Yeah, I totally agree with you.
Speaker: My point of view is that the Adore is just a tool to create music.
Speaker: I think a lot of people, I say a lot of people, and I'm generalising, just get so hung up on gear and features and software and digital audio workstations.
Speaker: They forget, really, that they're just trying to create music.
Speaker: I mean, nobody would ask my advice because I haven't been doing this for very long, but my advice would be just, you know, just use the equipment that you have and then, you know, use...
Speaker: the um the door that you have to create the music that you want to create um and i think if you get a little bit caught up on feature sets and is this eq better than this eq um i think you sort of end up in the weeds i personally that's happened to me you know you open up your digital auto workstation and you want to eq something and you've got 15 to choose from which one do you use you know
Speaker: I know a lot of people on the internet, for example, like Joe Gilder and Graham Cochran will probably say, just use the gear that you have.
Speaker: But really, if anyone's listening to this and they want to become involved in mixing, it really is absolutely 100% true.
Speaker: Just take what you have, learn how to use that piece of equipment, learn what it does.
Speaker: And then later on you can maybe look at a fancy EQ or some other analog emulation of an EQ to achieve a different result.
Speaker: But I think you actually have to try and understand the basics first.
Speaker: Going on to that, there was a question I wanted to ask you earlier on.
Speaker: Is that have you actually have any experience of working in a proper studio with outboard gear, with consoles?
Speaker: And the second part of the question...
Speaker: um if you have or if you haven't but you could actually have some kind of outboard gear probably different from a mixing point of view um i know that mastering engineers use different types of equipment but is there any sort of type of um hardware or outboard gear that if money was no object you would say yep i'll order that please deliver it to my home and put it into my cellar or wherever you work from and i'd love to work with that piece of gear um
Speaker: It's a great question, absolutely a great question.
Speaker: The first part, have I ever worked in the studio?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: For me, it's not... I like to learn from other people rather than learning what a particular environment's going to do.
Speaker: I think I can learn much more from understanding other people's thought processes that I can from a particular piece of gear.
Speaker: It would be nice to go into a studio and I do have a few contacts where I'm going to reach out to and hopefully kind of get to go into a mastering studio and see how they do it differently to it in the box.
Speaker: But for me, it goes back to that whole passion around helping others, you know, certainly the independent artists.
Speaker: How can I help them make music?
Speaker: So for me, having the idea of working in the studio or being in the studio, it's not really something that's kind of top of my agenda right now.
Speaker: But don't get me wrong, I love to experience it.
Speaker: But I think there's so much you can do from a home studio environment.
Speaker: And even now, even a lot of the top engineers, and they're saying, well, I have these studios, but they're doing so much work at home now before they even hit the studio.
Speaker: So I just think the whole balance and the whole...
Speaker: you know the whole atmosphere around music production is just completely changing in terms of like a character call it desert island piece of gear i don't really have one i honestly don't really have one i just think is there something that i would really really like no money no object i think it there's just too many bits of it i suppose i could say that maybe some kind of atc monitors and things like that something like that maybe or maybe a
Speaker: a really, really top-end converter, but it's, you know... No, I mean, I'll probably go off the wall, actually, and say maybe a guitar.
Speaker: Maybe like a... You know what I mean?
Speaker: Something that's not mastering-related.
Speaker: Maybe something like a real, you know...
Speaker: outlandish guitar that's never within my reach you know maybe something like the guitar the Flying V that Randy Rhodes played for Jackson or something like that I'm not really into these vintage Les Paul style things but maybe something like that that's associated with a famous artist maybe a Joe Perry maybe a Joe Perry Les Paul or something like that but you know maybe Randy Rhodes Flying V or something like that that would be kind of cool
Speaker: Yeah, I kind of, that's a very interesting answer because I've asked myself this question and I've thought, no, I'm happy working in the box.
Speaker: So then the outboard gear really isn't interesting for me anymore.
Speaker: And like you, I gravitate towards equipment, my own personal, I know this is about you, but...
Speaker: this podcast.
Speaker: But I remember when I was 18, I saw a Jupiter 8, a Roland Jupiter 8.
Speaker: And I remember going into a music store called Anderton's in Guildford, very famous music store.
Speaker: And I went with Stuart and we were just starting out a orchestral manoeuvres in the dark tribute band, if you like.
Speaker: We were writing our own material, but it all sounded like orchestral manoeuvres in the dark.
Speaker: He played bass and I played synthesizers.
Speaker: And I remember I saw, you know, it was a bit like that moment, I think, in Wayne's world, where Wayne goes into this guitar shop and then sees this guitar and then there's this chorus of heavenly music.
Speaker: I saw this Jupiterade and it kind of glowed, you know, and then the clouds parted and this was something that I wanted, but was, of course, never within my means financially.
Speaker: And I think that if I had the money today and this money was no object, I'd buy a Jupiter 8 just for the hell of it.
Speaker: It's an old classic synth.
Speaker: I don't know how much they cost, thousands of pounds or US dollars, but that would be my particular piece of equipment that I would go out and buy if money was no object.
Speaker: I don't blame you at all.
Speaker: And it always made me laugh was the fact that, you know, the engineers that were always saying, oh, you have to do it analogue.
Speaker: You have to do it analogue because you get that analogue via with that analogue warmth and stuff like that.
Speaker: And the next breath, they complained that the analogue equipment was just too erratic.
Speaker: So it's kind of like it wasn't consistent enough.
Speaker: And it's kind of like...
Speaker: So you want to get that analog warmth and that analog vibe, but on something that you can't recreate all the time because it's just that for me, it's just like, I think there's so many good new products now that are coming out and the way that technology is moving.
Speaker: One thing that has kind of caught my eye around outboard gear is I don't really have a real yearning towards getting loads of rack mount equipment, but I have seen some equipment that has almost kind of taken the Mini 500 series outboard gear.
Speaker: but integrating it into a system that's almost like acts as a converter and an interface at the same time and I'm trying to think I think it's Cranbourne Audio to do it but I've got this this unit now where you can add 500 series so if you want to do some analog stuff and maybe use some of the smaller 500 series and equipment you can do that but have the
Speaker: It's almost like the modern twist and have the connectivity where you can use it and integrate it with your computer and your laptop or your interface.
Speaker: And that is more interesting to me than a 30-year-old, 40-year-old piece of outboard equipment.
Speaker: Yeah, I totally agree with you 100%.
Speaker: I actually, as you were talking, thought about a question that's not even on the list.
Speaker: So I'm going to ask it anyway.
Speaker: What's your view on artificial intelligence in mastering?
Speaker: There are lots of applications.
Speaker: Of course, I mentioned one earlier on isotopes.
Speaker: Ozone is a famous product.
Speaker: But we see more and more plugins coming out on the market that incorporate artificial intelligence.
Speaker: What are your views about artificial intelligence in mastering?
Speaker: Yeah, they're all negative, quite frankly.
Speaker: I don't have a positive view on AI and mastering.
Speaker: And a lot of people will say, well, you're a mastering engineer.
Speaker: Of course, you're going to have a negative view because you want more people to pay you to master.
Speaker: It's quite interesting.
Speaker: And this is the viewpoint I've started to take is...
Speaker: So my 11-year-old daughter, she's just getting into music and we've started to write her first song.
Speaker: And as part of this process, we started to listen to some of her favorite music.
Speaker: And it's interesting that we've started to highlight with some of her favorite artists and she's actually recognizing and we agree on certain songs where you can tell if the artist has written that song or not.
Speaker: Because if you write your own songs, perform your own songs and record your own songs, you have that emotional attachment to that music.
Speaker: But you also get to drive the direction and also the creative expression.
Speaker: That end result is what you get to drive.
Speaker: The thing I don't like about the AI is it's not about looking for that new thing.
Speaker: It's not looking for that new sound.
Speaker: The AI works by analysing past music and then tries to recreate what it deems as the sound for what your song should sound like.
Speaker: And that for me is, it's not generating anything new.
Speaker: And I hear a lot of people who are not, let's say, in the music industry, but family and friends who just love listening to music.
Speaker: And people often say to me, God, the charts these days, it just sounds the same.
Speaker: And it's kind of like, it's because I think we're in this kind of ecosystem where I'm
Speaker: we're not encouraging new thoughts and new ideas.
Speaker: New technology comes along and people think, oh, that's new, let's try that.
Speaker: But it's not encouraging creativity.
Speaker: I think this is where AI is going to let itself down.
Speaker: And I had the big case in point, I don't know if you've seen the news article this week, where the AI generated song, which was a copy of, I think it was Drake and someone else, and the record label are now suing or taking legal action against the creators of that song.
Speaker: And it's, I just, where does AI stop?
Speaker: And even with mastering, it kind of brought loads of questions to mind.
Speaker: If AI is trying to recreate the sound of another artist, and if you're trying to then think about this in a mastering context, if AI is trying to replicate the sound of X amount of songs, but then obviously if mastering engineers got credits of those songs and it's taken that AI algorithm of the work that a mastering engineer has done or that mix engineer has done,
Speaker: then it's just a worrying trend.
Speaker: That's what really worries me about AI.
Speaker: It's trying to replicate what someone else has already done.
Speaker: For me, that's against a creative mindset.
Speaker: That doesn't look for a creative mindset.
Speaker: I think also the other thing that kind of come out of this was...
Speaker: As people, we love talking to people.
Speaker: We are a community, you know, species.
Speaker: That's a proven fact.
Speaker: Our psyche is geared around interacting with others.
Speaker: When you start to take that out of the equation, I just think it's going to, I think people will start, and I made reference to this on a LinkedIn post yesterday around AI, I think people will start to rebel against AI and they will start looking for that collaboration because it just brings people together.
Speaker: And I don't know whether this is something that's come out of the pandemic that we're more looking for at the moment, kind of really, as a species, we're kind of still in that bunker scenario.
Speaker: But I think we will come out of that bunker scenario and people will just generally want to work with other people again.
Speaker: So I just, I think eventually, I think the AI thing will...
Speaker: Certainly in an auto-mastering thing or an auto-song creation, I think it will, I don't want to say dissipate, but I think this human species will get to a stage where it will want to keep creating and want to communicate with each other in a more meaningful way.
Speaker: So I think
Speaker: You know, that's my thoughts on it anyway.
Speaker: I'm still yet to see a really positive use case for AI.
Speaker: There was someone who was way more important and famous than me.
Speaker: And it was around the music industry.
Speaker: And they said that AI can be used for so many great uses to help people create more music.
Speaker: But rather than using it for that purpose, they are trying to replace the human being in the music creation process.
Speaker: And for those Jurassic Park fans out there, Dr. Ian Malcolm, who once said, rather than thinking whether you should, well, you just was too focused on whether you could.
Speaker: And I love that.
Speaker: So for all those Jurassic Park fans, Ian Malcolm is the icon in terms of AI in my eyes at this moment.
Speaker: I actually remember that film.
Speaker: I remember that quote too.
Speaker: I had forgotten it, but I remembered it.
Speaker: Plug for the band.
Speaker: That's for Manu Effect.
Speaker: As I said, we were over the moon with the mastering job you did on the album.
Speaker: um it could be a bit of a dangerous question because i'll read it as i've written it it says how was the experience working with the band and what approach did you take helping the band achieve its vision for the final mastered album so um we're a pretty um understanding bunch of guys if you really want to hit us hard with um criticism and basically slag us off please go ahead we will not be offended
Speaker: Yeah, you're all a bunch of... No, I'll tell you what, it was such a great experience.
Speaker: I think this is where... The thing for me was, like I've mentioned, as a mastering engineer, sometimes it's trying to add that final piece of the puzzle, but sometimes you need to know what the puzzle's about.
Speaker: And the great thing I found was obviously the connection, not only with you three as individuals, but it's connection with the songs.
Speaker: I said to you after, I think it was the first or second video call we had, and I'm really looking forward to this project because I could hear from the songs the emotional attachment that you guys have had and the amount of effort and hard work that you pulled into the music.
Speaker: That's kind of like, it's one of those kind of like golden egg moments.
Speaker: Yeah, I want to work on that project.
Speaker: Because for me, it's once again, it's about enhancing that emotional connection that's going to have the end, listen to your audience, embrace those songs.
Speaker: And it's in some way, you know, trying to do something that's going to enhance that without sacrificing what you've already done.
Speaker: For me, it was just, it's just an all-around great experience.
Speaker: It really has been a great experience.
Speaker: But it's also, once again, it's having that community aspect and working with people.
Speaker: Because there are artists out there that just want to send an email and say, well, can you master my music for me?
Speaker: And it's kind of, yes, I've listened to it.
Speaker: This is what I think.
Speaker: What kind of sound are you going for?
Speaker: And it's kind of email, email.
Speaker: But it's having that connection on the video calls.
Speaker: And even at the end, when we had the...
Speaker: We'd done the mastering and we had that call at the end where we actually got to play back the masters.
Speaker: And it was great just seeing all your expressions listening to the songs.
Speaker: That for me was just great.
Speaker: So it was just a fabulous experience.
Speaker: But to get to really get into the mindset of you guys as songwriters and as musicians and producers and understand the background of the songs.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: for me that was just worth its weight in gold and it just allows me as the mastering engineer to kind of eek that extra bit out in the music knowing the history and the background behind it so it was just great even though there were a few C-bombs dropped along the way which was all the more entertaining and
Speaker: Yeah, it was a pleasure.
Speaker: It was an experience for us.
Speaker: I didn't have any experience of really working in audio before we started to record and produce the album.
Speaker: And then, of course, mastering absolutely no experience whatsoever.
Speaker: Stuart, Glanville, our lead singer, has some experience in the industry, and I'm sure he was or has been exposed to, if you like, professional audio engineers.
Speaker: and everybody, John, myself and Stuart were totally thrilled as I've said at least 15 times but going back to something we talked about earlier talking about how most people perceive mastering engineers to be geeks and into audio and frequency bands I remember one specific change that you actually made it was almost a production call we were just about wrapping up the final revisions for the album and I remember you said the girl from Devon
Speaker: is it okay if I do a fade in for the introduction?
Speaker: And that actually wasn't actually on the mix and I don't think we ever talked about it.
Speaker: So I think we had a brief exchange via messenger and we thought it was a great idea.
Speaker: So, you know, breaking the myth that all mastering engineers are nerds, you actually had a creative production input actually to the album.
Speaker: Yeah, but I think that's part of being a mastering engineer is you've got to wear so many hats, but also be well enough away from it.
Speaker: And I say that from a viewpoint that...
Speaker: you're not just looking at the technical aspects, you're looking at the final presentation because effectively you're almost, I don't want to say in charge of, because obviously you go through a revision process and you've got to work closely with the artist.
Speaker: But if anyone wants to get into the mindset of what you need to become a mastering engineer, you've also got to think, you've got to be personable, you've got to be able to get on with the band, you've got to identify what the songs are about, you've got to get involved in the story to understand what the artist is doing
Speaker: He's trying to do, but it's almost what's going to translate well to your audience.
Speaker: And sometimes you've not got to be afraid to say, I think this could improve the song.
Speaker: What do you think?
Speaker: Because it's not your song as the mastering engineer, but if you can recommend something that would enhance it further and create a better listening experience.
Speaker: It's almost your job to do that because there is a quality control aspect of mastering.
Speaker: There is a technical control aspect of mastering, but also you're the final set of ears.
Speaker: And if you can then have a good recommendation and say, I wonder if this might help to give this, this is why I think this would be better.
Speaker: And almost add that suggestion.
Speaker: It's just part and parcel of being a mastering engineer rather than just the technical aspects.
Speaker: Because the technical side, I think we've spoken about it before and someone may say, you know, oh, I think you've got from a technical aspect, I think there's too much bass frequencies going on.
Speaker: But if from a musical point of view, if it's the bass that's driving the song, you've almost got to stop thinking from a technical aspect and think about from a musical aspect.
Speaker: So it's...
Speaker: there's so many different little hats and recommendations that you have to have.
Speaker: I feel you have to be a successful mastering engineer.
Speaker: Sometimes you've got to break away from just the technical side of things and focus on the musicality as well because you are the final set of ears before it's then going to get released.
Speaker: So I think that's a crucial skill.
Speaker: There was something else that just sprung to mind as well, ego.
Speaker: Ego is another big thing as well.
Speaker: And I think this is when it comes to, as a master engineer, I feel it's my job to actually give the artist comfort that they're not going to be met with a massive ego.
Speaker: Because once again, it's retracting back from the thought that you are the, as a master engineer, you're not the artist.
Speaker: This is someone else's work.
Speaker: But it's your job to ensure that that's going to, the final product is going to be a great sounding track or song.
Speaker: if you have an ego, you're going to instantly put your mix engineers back up, the artist engineer back up, and it's not going to help anyone.
Speaker: And it's like you say, when you've not worked with a mastering engineer before, and I think this is one of the challenges as mastering engineers is being more, um,
Speaker: more, I don't want to say friendly, but when you can build a relationship with the artist and the mix engineer, the artist is going to be worried about releasing their baby and giving their baby away to someone else who's going to have some kind of creative input to it.
Speaker: See, if you go in with ego, that's not going to work.
Speaker: A mix engineer is going to be worried that you're going to critique what they've done.
Speaker: That's not going to work having an ego there.
Speaker: It's kind of working with everyone to say, just having these little creative inputs, I feel we could achieve a better end result if we did this because of this.
Speaker: And doing that in a way that's not going to be egotistical and make yourself look like...
Speaker: I'll let you add your own expletive there.
Speaker: But I think it's just a big way of just being a generally nice human being as best as you can whilst also, you know, you're part of a team, aren't you?
Speaker: We've spoke about this as being part of a team.
Speaker: If you can take that mindset as being a master in the industry, I think you really set yourself up for success and people will want to work with you because they know that
Speaker: they're going to get that from you rather than being this egotistical so-and-so, let's say.
Speaker: No, I completely agree.
Speaker: I think that's the advantage of actually working as an independent musician and working with independent artists because I think the kind of relationships that you talk about, if you're a big major, major act and you're working on a big major label, the amount of people involved in that just on production alone is going to be enormous.
Speaker: And I really do doubt that you actually have a chance to build those relationships in a real professional environment.
Speaker: You know, I'm talking about big world bands, famous world stars.
Speaker: I can imagine, you know, you're working in a professional studio in California somewhere.
Speaker: Tons of people behind you in marketing, production.
Speaker: I think that maybe is actually one of the advantages of actually being an independent musician.
Speaker: Before we go on,
Speaker: Because I realise that we've been on for a while and I don't think anyone's going to listen to a two-hour podcast today, even if we are talking about totally interesting things.
Speaker: I wanted to mention the course that you recently launched on Skillshare because I actually watched it.
Speaker: I watched it while I unfortunately was lying in hospital being treated for an infection with antibiotics.
Speaker: So it was perfect timing.
Speaker: I couldn't actually think of a better time and wish to be ill.
Speaker: So I signed up for my 30 days.
Speaker: Maybe you can talk a bit more about that in a minute.
Speaker: But how would you describe the experience putting the course together from a content creator?
Speaker: And how do you think the course has actually been received?
Speaker: That's a great question.
Speaker: How did it go recording the course?
Speaker: It's not a course, it's a class.
Speaker: I have to remember it's a class.
Speaker: But for me, the challenge was taking the YouTube, because obviously having a YouTube channel and having experience of creating videos, you kind of go into it with the idea that this is going to be a walk in the park.
Speaker: I know how to make videos.
Speaker: I know how to do this.
Speaker: I know how to do that.
Speaker: And then you start thinking about actually putting the structure together and structuring a concept over X amount of videos, but into bite-sized chunks.
Speaker: You've got to make it digestible.
Speaker: The YouTube stuff I love doing, but it's very much more small conceptual, what I call small conceptual videos.
Speaker: So you can talk about a small concept for 10, 15, 20 minutes, etc.
Speaker: But when you're putting a class together, it's trying to make sure that you've got everything together, make sure it's in an easy to understand and digestible fashion.
Speaker: It's a challenge, especially for me when, like I said, with the shorter style videos, scripting isn't necessarily so important because you can experiment or you can almost test.
Speaker: You can be more ad lib.
Speaker: But when you're putting through a structured course or a class, it's a challenge.
Speaker: So it was a great, fun challenge to be part of.
Speaker: It was educational.
Speaker: I learned so much just generally around just helping to educate others and video editing, video craft and so many different bits that, yeah, it was a real challenge, but I learned so much.
Speaker: So it's one that I'll certainly be repeating at some point in the very near future.
Speaker: I've got lots of ideas for different classes and courses and
Speaker: you know, and different platforms and things.
Speaker: And it's just overall a great experience.
Speaker: How it's being received?
Speaker: I think it's being received really well.
Speaker: It was released beginning of March.
Speaker: We're now mid to late April.
Speaker: And I'm almost at the 2020 student mark, which I think is great.
Speaker: And one of the things for me which I'm very, very impressed with and very happy with is I've been a long-time champion of diversity in music industry around getting more genders involved in music.
Speaker: I think music's still very seen as this.
Speaker: it's a man's game and it's not a man's game.
Speaker: We need to get more gender diverse people involved in music.
Speaker: And I think out of the 18, I think I've worked at least five are, I'll say female because I don't know the full details.
Speaker: I can only go from name, but at least it shows there's a diverse group of people watching the class and that for me is a big win.
Speaker: Because that's something I'm passionate about and that's great.
Speaker: And, you know, the amount of a few times going up, so it seems to be going really, really well.
Speaker: So I'm really happy with it.
Speaker: That was an excellent course.
Speaker: I watched all the episodes lying in my hospital bed.
Speaker: I think you very kindly decided to use one of our songs and featured it actually during the course.
Speaker: I think it was Born to be Free, I think, the track that you actually used.
Speaker: If I understand it correctly, you're giving your students a chance to remaster some of the tracks.
Speaker: And if that's so, has anybody dared to download our song and remaster it?
Speaker: Well, because of obviously intellectual property and things like that, I'm not able to let them download the TSE song.
Speaker: So I had to use it as a use case.
Speaker: But the way I've designed it, I've designed it very much in mind with showing the approach that I...
Speaker: Not that I necessarily took on that song because obviously I have a, you know, the skill set obviously that's available to me is more than that, let's say, that I think would be warranted in a 101 mastering course.
Speaker: But at least what I was able to do is actually take the song and actually show the core principles around mastering and actually utilize that to show the before and after and how you can use simple mastering techniques to create a great sounding song.
Speaker: and also with things, you know, or trying to keep it in a manner that's accessible to everyone.
Speaker: So not using third-party plugins, not using a lot of the software that I use to master the original, but showing them how they can do this with stock plugins that you get from a DAW.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: The way that I've kind of set it, I've used the example of the TSE song because I think it's a great song.
Speaker: I think it's one that's going to be, that will be received well.
Speaker: The great thing about the TSE music is it incorporates a lot of genres, doesn't it?
Speaker: And that's one of the things is when you're trying to pitch a class is you want to make sure that you're not going to turn away people by using a song that may not be from a style they like.
Speaker: So using something from TSE was almost like it was just a great option because it,
Speaker: you know there's so many different influences in there and whether you like a bit of rock or a little pop or you know even so many different different different um aspects to the tsc sound that it just made it a bit of a no-brainer for me to want to use one of those songs as an example so yeah it was a bit of a bit of a no-brainer but people can come master on using their own music or there are some resources out there where people get access to downloadable songs
Speaker: And the way I've set it up is so people can submit their songs and I will then listen to their songs and provide feedback of the before and after and kind of give some constructive ideas of how they might be able to take it and develop it further.
Speaker: So it was a great experience.
Speaker: That's excellent.
Speaker: Yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker: I'm showing my inexperience as an audio engineer in my last question.
Speaker: I mean, you can't really ask somebody to download a remaster and remaster it.
Speaker: It doesn't make any sense, does it, from a technical standpoint?
Speaker: So put my hands up and say, I probably got that question completely wrong, but it wasn't scripted.
Speaker: It was completely off the cuff.
Speaker: So there again, but I got an interesting answer anyway.
Speaker: So congratulations to anybody who's managed to stay with us this long in the podcast.
Speaker: So we've got one final question coming up and it's the classic cliche question.
Speaker: What's next for your YouTube channel, Mastering in the Box, Progressive Sound Audio and Smudge in general?
Speaker: Well, there's loads.
Speaker: There's lots, because obviously more mastering's coming in, so there'll be new masters that we'll be working on, but more educational content relation to mastering.
Speaker: Progressive sound audio is going to be the big thing, so not only focusing on the services I offer, but also thinking about some of the other benefits that we can add to people to help them grow as musicians.
Speaker: So there's going to be a lot of information and content around progressive sound audio, and we're looking at new tools, new techniques, and just generally, how can we help people grow as musicians and independent artists?
Speaker: So that's going to be a big push.
Speaker: Also, I've got this Waif and Stray that's going to be part of Progressive Sound Audio, helping with the content side of things by the name of Tony Ross.
Speaker: So, you know, I'm really glad to have you on board because it's, you know, we're going to have you.
Speaker: So let's let the audience aware.
Speaker: So I've been speaking to Tony some time about how we can kind of collaborate in different ways because he's a great mix engineer.
Speaker: He's a great producer.
Speaker: I think the thing is how can we use different skill sets and different ideas just to kind of help other people.
Speaker: So, you know, I've lumbered Tony with getting on board.
Speaker: We're going to do some content together around some of the, you know, mixing, mastering, how to, you know, I want to help people with just creating great sounding music.
Speaker: Dolby Atmos is this big thing at the moment which is obviously very topical and it's very new.
Speaker: I say it's been around for some time.
Speaker: It's very new at the moment.
Speaker: There's still a lot of misconceptions around what it is, what it does.
Speaker: That's going to be also quite a big focus for us in giving them...
Speaker: an impartial view.
Speaker: And I don't know if you'll agree with this or not, Tony, but the feedback I'm getting around Dolby Atmos is there's so much, oh, you have to do this, you have to have this gear, you have to have that.
Speaker: And it's just a load of it.
Speaker: It is BS, and it's kind of giving that impartial view to say,
Speaker: Well, this is actually what it is, not what people are telling you it is.
Speaker: This is how you can use Atmos to get a new creative element to your songs rather than thinking about these small little bits of information that are being passed down which is giving people worries about Dolby.
Speaker: I think it can be maybe not maybe it's not even Dolby Atmos itself, just spatial audio in general.
Speaker: I just think it's just such a new platform that we can help others grow as musicians.
Speaker: So I think there's so much there that we can do as, you know, as people to help others to create great sounding music.
Speaker: So I'm really looking forward to that.
Speaker: Well, thank you for the kind comments.
Speaker: I've only been involved in audio engineering for about three years and basically self-taught.
Speaker: I've never attended any audio school or classes and most things I've learned by following good people on the internet like Joe Gilder and Graham Cochran and other people who have given their time as educators.
Speaker: So I've learned an awful lot from them.
Speaker: I've learned an awful lot from your YouTube channel about mastering.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Yeah, it's going to be a bit of a big step for me too, because I don't really have a lot of experience in doing this, but I'm glad to be on board and I look forward to working with you wherever the journey may take us.
Speaker: So I think after about one hour, 20 minutes, people have probably gone out to the pub or have just basically given up or have gone on with their lives.
Speaker: If you've made it to the end of the podcast, congratulations.
Speaker: Smudge, I'd like to thank you for taking time out.
Speaker: I know that you jumped straight from a live YouTube call directly into this interview.
Speaker: So you must also be wanting to go off and drink and eat something.
Speaker: But once again, fantastic answers.
Speaker: It's been a fascinating conversation.
Speaker: Look forward to working with you.
Speaker: And thanks for taking the time today.
Speaker: No, thank you very much.
Speaker: Thanks for having me as part of this call today.
Speaker: It's really great.
Speaker: And I suppose it would be best to finish it off with say, can't wait for more TSE music coming soon.
Speaker: That's a good way to end it.
Speaker: We're currently working on a single release.
Speaker: I can't really say anything else about it at the moment because we are still mixing it.
Speaker: But there will be some more music coming.
Speaker: And I don't think we're going to have to wait two years to hear some more music from TSE.
Speaker: So thank you for listening, everybody.
Speaker: And hopefully you'll join us for the next podcast.
Speaker: So I'll just say goodbye to Smudge.
Speaker: Goodbye.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: And we'll see you on the next podcast.
Speaker: Thanks very much indeed.
Speaker: Bye-bye.
