Transcript
Speaker: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the TSE podcast.
Speaker: So here we are at the TSE podcast.
Speaker: I'm with John today, John Bicknell, who plays bass for us on That's For Mardo Effect and also well known, of course, with his work with Squire.
Speaker: So the whole point of today's podcast was to get together with John and just talk about drums and wires, which is a bit off theme because this is a TSE podcast.
Speaker: So, John, thanks for joining me, mate, on a Sunday afternoon.
Speaker: You're welcome mate, lovely to see you.
Speaker: Yeah, lovely to see you too matey.
Speaker: So let's get right into it as they say, trying to be all professional here.
Speaker: The first question I wrote down was, when did you join or when did you form the band Drums and Wires UK?
Speaker: Well, after Squire stopped touring and we stopped doing anything, you know, I think we took a 10-year break before we did anything else with Squire.
Speaker: So in 1984, I found myself lost something to do.
Speaker: So for a few years, I just thought, well, you know, I've been around with Squire for a few years.
Speaker: You know, I'm just going to sort of like do what...
Speaker: what musicians do and bum around write songs have a good time go to parties have girlfriends split up with girlfriends etc etc so uh so and then it wasn't until um late 80s that uh I hooked up with Nigel Higgs
Speaker: And we had a kind of common interest in music and he was a magnificent guitarist, could play in any style.
Speaker: He liked my songs, so we put drums and wires together as a kind of thing after playing two years together in a band called Phoenix, which were a rock band.
Speaker: uh a covers rock band but a few of my songs crept into the set around that time you know the evolution from phoenix was drums and wires which was nigel the guitarist me on bass and vocals and then we got a new drummer
Speaker: So the songs, some of the songs were carried over from Phoenix into drums and wires.
Speaker: And, uh, and then, yeah, we, we, we did a lot of gigs.
Speaker: We, we, we recorded, you know, two songs for a compilation.
Speaker: CD at the time and but you know the band kind of split up around 1994 and I kind of forgot about it for a long time I was bringing up my family you know and kind of did what most musicians do that are failed pop stars of the 80s you know concentrate on the other things in life
Speaker: And that's what I did.
Speaker: And it wasn't until 2015 that I got back into music.
Speaker: Excellent.
Speaker: So, Phoenix.
Speaker: I didn't know if you were looking on your Bandcamp page that actually you just released some music, some old EPs of music of Phoenix.
Speaker: yeah there was i mean we did a in 1990 i think we did a cassette album and we called it i mean phoenix was obviously this bird rising from the ashes uh and i had this idea that oh yeah yeah let's call it phoenix first flight so we put a cassette album out of uh
Speaker: I think there were five original songs, none of them written by myself, and there were five cover versions that went out on this cassette album.
Speaker: You know, I've put the demos that were our original songs up on Bandcamp just for historic purposes.
Speaker: I mean, it's a free download, you know, anyone can download it.
Speaker: But all the other guys that I'm still in touch with from Phoenix, they're all happy about that.
Speaker: It gives them a chance to listen back to it.
Speaker: And it's in good quality because it was from the original master tape.
Speaker: that we recorded way back in in 1989 I think it was you know the the engineer from the studio there found this you know um one inch tape or something with it with all these this stuff on there so he said that to me and I've put it out on Bandcamp as a free download and uh and and yeah and drums and wires evolved out of Phoenix and
Speaker: I'll put some links actually to the new band camp site.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'll ask notes at the end of the show so that anyone interested can just run along and pop down and listen to some of the music that you recorded and play with Phoenix.
Speaker: The next question was who were the original members of the band, but were there any other members or colleagues or other musicians from Phoenix that made up the first lineup from drums and wires?
Speaker: Only myself, Nigel Higgs, the guitarist I mentioned earlier,
Speaker: And then we had an audition for drummers.
Speaker: I can't remember how many we got through, but eventually we chose a colleague of Nigel's where he worked at the Oceanographic Institute.
Speaker: in Southampton you know he um he's a scientist Nigel is a scientist or was uh and uh and so he introduced a friend of his from from his work who played drums with us for about a year
Speaker: and um and it was mainly a covers band you know we we'd go out and do tracks by uh the who and joe jackson and xtc and the stranglers and crowded house and you know old stuff like royal royal buson uh and you know it was a an eclectic mix but all all put put across in a power pop sort of vein what were the songs that made it from
Speaker: from the band you played in Phoenix and eventually made it, for example, onto the Drums and Wires album In's and Outs and Roundabouts.
Speaker: Were there any?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We did a song on the we released as Phoenix.
Speaker: We released a three track EP called No Time At All.
Speaker: And it was a three tracks EP.
Speaker: The A side was No Time At All.
Speaker: And on the B side, there was my song Sunshine Smile and another track by two of the other writers.
Speaker: So Sunshine Smile was
Speaker: conceived for that band basically and it made it all the way you know in 2015 it you know it came to the point where Ray said to me we need to record all these old songs and that was one that that was one that survived from Phoenix over to drums and wires
Speaker: But that was the only one that I wrote.
Speaker: Oh, no, no, I tell a lie.
Speaker: I should have known.
Speaker: I should have known we also did in Phoenix.
Speaker: And I want to see the sun.
Speaker: We also did in Phoenix.
Speaker: Yeah, I was going to, sorry, I was going to interrupt, but I was, I was, I was going to interrupt and I did.
Speaker: But yeah, what was the difference then between Phoenix obviously disbanded and then you say you took 10 years where you weren't interested in music.
Speaker: And then how did drums and wires come into being then afterwards?
Speaker: well after the original drums and wires um yeah I I spent a lot of time with family and personal issues and and then one day I bumped into Ray the old drummer uh and he said let's get in let's get together in the studio let's record all these old songs and put them out because
Speaker: In Ray's words, they need to be heard, Johnny.
Speaker: So we spent four years putting that stuff together.
Speaker: And this was Ray Lawrence, yeah?
Speaker: Yeah, Ray Lawrence.
Speaker: Her drummer who plays with you when you go on tour with Squire, yeah?
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: Yeah, he's drummer for Drums and Wires and he's drummer for Squire.
Speaker: But we go back, way back to the 90s.
Speaker: So, yeah, I mean, when Squire started touring, Anthony asked us, myself and Ray, to join the lineup simply because, you know, I was the ex-Squire bass player and I had a drummer that tagged along with me.
Speaker: Yeah, that worked out fine.
Speaker: So when you got back together with a new reincarnation, if you like, of Drums and Wires, did you immediately record those first two songs on All the Things and Sunshine Smile?
Speaker: Were they the first Drums and Wires tracks you recorded?
Speaker: The first song we recorded was All the Things.
Speaker: That is the first one we did.
Speaker: And that was one that we never used to play live.
Speaker: You know, I wrote that.
Speaker: sort of kind of after after drums and wires version one kind of fell apart because I decided to stop playing live gigs.
Speaker: But I did get together with Nigel Hicks in his studio and I did actually I was his lodger for that year and we used to record demos in his studio.
Speaker: He turned his
Speaker: basically his cellar, he turned it into a recording studio.
Speaker: So we used to spend countless hours in there recording demos.
Speaker: I actually remember getting my hands on a single copy of All the Things.
Speaker: This was before you released the Drums and Wires album.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's out to roundabouts.
Speaker: I remember you sending over a copy and it was just a single.
Speaker: And I think the version that ended up on the album Ins and Outs and Roundabouts was recorded again.
Speaker: It sounded slightly different.
Speaker: Yeah, it was.
Speaker: Nigel recorded his guitar parts.
Speaker: When me and Ray decided that we wanted to get together and do my songs, we didn't have a guitarist.
Speaker: I did ask Nigel to do it, but Nigel was in the Mediterranean at the time sailing his yacht, so he couldn't get involved.
Speaker: So, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker: You know, he's struggling in the music business and then Nigel has to leave the band and goes out and he can buy a yacht now.
Speaker: Super.
Speaker: All right, Nigel.
Speaker: How do you joke?
Speaker: Not from the earnings from Drums and Myers, I take it.
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: It's all done for the love of it, mate.
Speaker: But, yeah, he came along and did some sessions for all the things.
Speaker: And Sunshine Smile.
Speaker: And another one.
Speaker: Tell me, I think.
Speaker: Tell me what?
Speaker: Oh, no, it was Don't Look So Down.
Speaker: Anyway, he did.
Speaker: He played guitar on three of those tracks.
Speaker: Then, you know, decided he couldn't put any more time into it.
Speaker: So the obvious choice for us really was to get a guitarist into to do the whole album and and redo those tracks.
Speaker: But they have surfaced on you on the demo version.
Speaker: of the, on some demos on my, on the latest issue of the hour, which you mastered for me, Tony.
Speaker: So, um, you know, they sound great, you know?
Speaker: So the, the album, Internals and Roundabouts, you said took four years to record.
Speaker: That's even longer than it took us to record the, where are the angels?
Speaker: Uh, the, our album from that Somato effect.
Speaker: How did the recording, how did you actually record the album?
Speaker: I mean, where did you record it?
Speaker: How did you record it?
Speaker: Who was involved?
Speaker: But the drums and wires album.
Speaker: Yeah, the ins and outs and roundabouts.
Speaker: You said it took four years.
Speaker: Yeah, it took four years.
Speaker: How did you record it?
Speaker: You didn't go to a recording studio?
Speaker: No, Ray originally had all his recording equipment set up in his dining room.
Speaker: So most of the backing tracks were done in his dining room with his full drum kit set up and all his equipment there, all his mixing desk and all his computer software, etc.
Speaker: Speakers and all that.
Speaker: was on the other side of the room i used to have to squeeze into the doorway to do vocal tracks because there was no room for me to to for me to do it but yeah all the backing tracks were done in ray's living room uh sorry dining room uh overdubs as well les used to come down and um put some put guitar tracks down
Speaker: And it was all done in literally about a six foot by six foot room with eight foot ceiling.
Speaker: And that kind of is a totally different way of recording.
Speaker: It was done over a long, long time.
Speaker: How often were you going into the studio?
Speaker: What was your routine while you were recording?
Speaker: You know, it was good to go in once a week, but Ray, with his work schedule, could only manage about four hours on a Friday each week.
Speaker: So we, you know, and then we did take a year break while me and Ray were playing a tour with Squire as well.
Speaker: So, you know, it was a slow process.
Speaker: We've got him out there in the end.
Speaker: We talked about Les, very talented guitarist.
Speaker: He was a member of the band and he's sadly no longer with us.
Speaker: What would you say his major influence was with regard to the overall sound of the band during the recording of the album?
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: I say that because I've listened to, obviously, Nigel play, and the guitar styles are completely different.
Speaker: If you listen, for example, to some of the guitar work on All the Things, you can hear the difference, actually.
Speaker: I assume that Ray re-recorded, sorry, I assume that Les re-recorded the version that ended up on the Ins and Out and Roundabouts album.
Speaker: That's right, yeah.
Speaker: And it seemed a bit of a change of direction in terms of sound.
Speaker: Was that just down to Les and his style of playing?
Speaker: I think so, yeah, because Nigel was and still is a very country orientated guitar player.
Speaker: You know, you can hear his kind of country style coming into some of the songs.
Speaker: Like you said, if you listen to that demo version of all the things, you know, you know, it's it's much more country influenced and the same with Sunshine Smile, you know,
Speaker: and uh nez kind of this was kind of got i mean we never played live with les you know i i've known les since back in the back in the early 80s he's always been a local musician a local you know he was always revered as a as what as one of the best guitarists around you know and and we kind of you know
Speaker: lost touch i used to work with him in the supermarket actually for about six months really but yeah he was always a great guy was always full of laughs full of jokes and all that and we really got on and then he got into his bands i got into my bands and we kind of lost touch and the and it was only in 2016 i think that ray said that he kept in touch with les all those years and
Speaker: And I said, well, Nigel Soplin will be able to do the album.
Speaker: So, you know, should we ask Les?
Speaker: And Ray approached Les.
Speaker: Les listened to the songs and said, I'd love to do it.
Speaker: And Les is a guitar collector, or was a guitarist.
Speaker: I keep referring to him in the present tense, and it's difficult.
Speaker: Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker: Les, you know, he was a big collector of guitars.
Speaker: I would...
Speaker: I wouldn't even imagine the amount of guitars that he'd bought over the years, but he had a collection of some great guitars.
Speaker: And, you know, it was, you know, with the Drums and Wires album, for instance...
Speaker: He actually bought a Brian May Red Special copy guitar, which must have cost him a lot of money.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: He actually bought that guitar just to do the solo on a song on the album called All of This Time.
Speaker: That's commitment for you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He wanted a Brian May sounding Queen solo in that, and he bought the guitar for it.
Speaker: He bought a Strat.
Speaker: um for for most of the other songs on the album you know the pops the pop stuff and he bought a couple of other guitars while we were recording and said this would be a good one to play on this particular song and he brought a massive influence to the band excellent his styles it's so eclectic you know he's such a versatile guitarist
Speaker: and not just that a brilliant songwriter you know we've got uh a couple of les's songs coming out as drums and wires songs on the next album if we uh because he he also wrote pop songs he you know as well as writing surf type songs from the 60s which he was a speciality of his
Speaker: me and him were working together on a project of some surf songs that he'd written before he sadly passed away.
Speaker: But, you know, we'll get some of this stuff out there because it's...
Speaker: Like me, you know, some songs you write, they fit into the bands that you're playing in.
Speaker: Or if you're doing several different bands and projects, you know, you have to choose and pick between, you know, which particular sort of project with that song suit, you know.
Speaker: Yeah, I remember you sent me some early demos of the album and I remember one song that I think was completely transformed when I heard it was I Want to See the Sun.
Speaker: Wow, yeah.
Speaker: The album version has this sublime slide guitar.
Speaker: that I can't play.
Speaker: I've never mastered slide guitar.
Speaker: And it completely transformed the song, of course, for the better.
Speaker: It's just a great piece of guitar.
Speaker: Very talented guitarist.
Speaker: And I think you can hear his influence throughout the entire album, just personally as a, you know, I'm really involved in that.
Speaker: With that particular song, Liz said to me, what do you want this to sound like?
Speaker: What sort of guitar do you want?
Speaker: Because he always used to email me or phone me or chat over Messenger.
Speaker: He always used to say, you know, love the song.
Speaker: What kind of feel do you want to it?
Speaker: What kind of like?
Speaker: And it was like, I was thinking...
Speaker: God, this guy can turn himself to anything, you know?
Speaker: And he was such a versatile guitarist.
Speaker: And I Want to See the Sun originally started as an acoustic demo with just me and voice, you know, a very sort of straightforward mid-paced acoustic song.
Speaker: But when me and Ray put down the backing track for it,
Speaker: I think it had a real Floyd-y type feel to it.
Speaker: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: It was kind of sort of like slow-paced with like booming bass drums and stuff and the bass doing all sorts of psychedelic things.
Speaker: So when Ray said, when Led said to me, what do you want me to do on this?
Speaker: I said, just be David Gilmore.
Speaker: LAUGHTER
Speaker: And he went away, and God bless him, he came back with fantastic type of echoes type guitar, you know, like from some of the earlier Floyd stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: With Dave Gilmore's slide stuff.
Speaker: He totally improvised it.
Speaker: I don't know how many takes he did.
Speaker: I wasn't there at the session.
Speaker: He did that with Ray.
Speaker: But I don't know how many takes they did.
Speaker: But that's the one that we ended up with.
Speaker: And of course, he did all that stuff at the end of the soul as well.
Speaker: Yeah, I wanted to say, I remember, just an antidote, is that
Speaker: dark grey mornings when I wake up and I look outside the window, that song comes into my head, the beginning of the song just has you saying, I want to see the sun.
Speaker: Strange you should say that because that song was written, I split up with my first serious girlfriend.
Speaker: And that song was written, I was laying in my bedroom, laying on my bed, and I was looking out the window, and where I lived, I looked up onto a hill with loads of treats, and I was looking out there, and it was dark clouds, and it was peeing with rain, and I was crying to myself that I'd lost this girlfriend, even though I treated her like a piece of shit, you know, but...
Speaker: And then the phrase came into my head, I want to see the sun.
Speaker: And I got the notepad out and I thought like, I looked at the window, the low hung clouds affect my mood, darkness fills my every thought.
Speaker: The only thing that pulls me through is maybe someday thing will change.
Speaker: I want to see the sun, you know.
Speaker: And that was a very early song that I wrote, but not the earliest.
Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker: I wonder where the inspiration come from.
Speaker: And now we know the story.
Speaker: Most of my songs are about relationship breakups, mate.
Speaker: You should know that.
Speaker: The other question I did have, of course, you answered that, was I just wondered when was the first Drums and Wires UK gig?
Speaker: And it sounds that you, with the line-up, with you, with Ray, and with Les, you never actually played a gig.
Speaker: Never played a gig.
Speaker: My first gig with Drums and Wires was at the Swan pub in Hazelmere.
Speaker: And that was me, Nigel Higgs on guitar and a guy called Paul Ridout on drums, who was a colleague of Nigel's at the Institute of Oceanographic Studies in Southampton.
Speaker: two scientists and one commoner like me in the band we just went into the swan we'd learned a load of cover versions there was no original songs in the set you know and we did about an hour and a half in the swan papa and and it went down a stall and i do believe that woody was there woody turned up
Speaker: And I think actually Woody turned up with Anthony Maynard to see us because they'd seen it in the local paper, Drums and Wires, and they immediately thought Drums and Wires made the connection, XTC.
Speaker: So they came along thinking it was an XTC tribute band.
Speaker: That's what I wanted to ask was the name Drums and Wires UK.
Speaker: I think you've just answered the question, but I mean, where did you, where did you come up with the name?
Speaker: How did you come up with the name?
Speaker: Well, I have to give my total, you know, thanks there to Andy Bartridge of XTC.
Speaker: The third Drums and Wires, always been a big XTC fan, the third Drums and Wires album was called Drums and Wires.
Speaker: Sorry, the third XTC album was called Drums and Wires.
Speaker: And I thought that was a fantastic way to explain the music contained within it, you know?
Speaker: That was the next question.
Speaker: I mean, someone who's never heard Drums and Wires UK or one of the six people who are going to watch this video, how would you describe the genre or the music from Drums and Wires, apart from terrible?
Speaker: Well, yeah, apart from terrible.
Speaker: Oh, I thought you said terrible.
Speaker: Sorry, I was just copying you.
Speaker: No, no, no.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: How would I explain it?
Speaker: You know, I think it's a mixture of, I mean...
Speaker: Although I've written some early songs that ended up on the Drums of Wiles album, I mean, the first song I wrote... Sorry, the second song I ever wrote was called Don't Jump in My Boat.
Speaker: And I wrote that just after...
Speaker: joining Squire because being a member of Squire, I was kind of influenced by that kind of sound.
Speaker: And I thought, oh, yeah, I want to write pop songs.
Speaker: I want to write songs with melodies and sing along choruses.
Speaker: And so when Squire went inactive while Anthony went to California,
Speaker: I spent about six months just writing songs, you know, and they did turn out to be very poppy songs, but with quite dark lyrics.
Speaker: Yeah, Jump In My Boat didn't actually appear in the original version of the album.
Speaker: I know that Ray remixed the album, and then that song appeared on the remix album, but wasn't on the original.
Speaker: And that's quite strange.
Speaker: If you say that you wrote it very early on, it kind of didn't make the first cut for the first six, seven, seven original release.
Speaker: That was one that I never even considered for the album.
Speaker: but when we revisited the seven songs that we put on the album and then we looked at the look back at the ones that we'd put backing tracks down for but hadn't you know worked on there was about five or six songs that uh
Speaker: that Ray said, well, look, you know, the original version of the album was seven tracks.
Speaker: Let's put it out as an expanded version with all these other ones that we didn't have time to finish on the album.
Speaker: And I said, yeah, that's a great idea.
Speaker: So we spent about three months revisiting these old backing tracks and building on them and getting Les to come in and do his bit.
Speaker: But Don't Jump In My Boat was one that I...
Speaker: dug out it wasn't there was no backing track there existed for that one we actually recorded that one from scratch just to put on the album because it was an old song i'd had we you know we wanted i wanted to make it a 13 track album because i'm lucky 13 you know
Speaker: But as it turned out, because Les wrote a prelude to one of my songs orchestrally, it turned out to be a 14-track album because that is the song that Les wrote on there before that final song.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The album sounds very autobiographical.
Speaker: Is that true?
Speaker: I mean, a lot of the songs, I think, are pop songs, they're great songs, talk about relationships.
Speaker: And there are some tracks like I Want to See the Sun we already talked about and All of This Time, for example, where you mentioned the Prelude.
Speaker: They're different from the other power pop songs on the album.
Speaker: I mean, is that just accident or is that deliberate?
Speaker: How come those songs appeared?
Speaker: on the album with the other Power Pop songs, so to speak.
Speaker: Well, I don't know.
Speaker: I must say, yeah, I agree with you that I think the album is largely autobiographical.
Speaker: Not 100%, because...
Speaker: I do tend to write songs about situations, relationships, be that with a male, a female, be that be a loving relationship or, you know, a sexual relationship or whatever.
Speaker: You know, I do tend to sort of kind of,
Speaker: right from a first-person perspective, even if I'm... Yeah.
Speaker: Some of my songs, if I was to put them down as a play, you know, they would be like Stuart, like with Swamato.
Speaker: He said, she said.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, it's ambiguous, really.
Speaker: Because songs like songs like all the things I talks about all the things and things that you gave.
Speaker: That sounds like a relationship breakup.
Speaker: And then you have another song, which I had in the back of my mind, but I completely forgotten about was don't tell me, don't tell me what to say.
Speaker: Sounds like it's an, it sounds like if it's an argument on record.
Speaker: Are they all about the same person, the relationship?
Speaker: Is it basically the same relationship?
Speaker: Or are they about different people, different relationships?
Speaker: They're all different.
Speaker: Some of them are about, I mean, I don't know if I should hold my hand up to this, but I've probably had about 25 girlfriends in my lifetime.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Well, I've had, well, it's all good songwriting experience, you know, but tell me what to say was actually not about a girl at all.
Speaker: A lot of my songs I make very ambiguous.
Speaker: You know, don't jump in my boat.
Speaker: You know, it might sound like a little boy, you know, somebody sitting in a little rowing boat on the ocean.
Speaker: But it's actually a much deeper song about the trauma of childbirth.
Speaker: Now, work that one out.
Speaker: Yeah, I'd have to go back and listen to the lyrics.
Speaker: Listen to the lyrics and you might get that.
Speaker: I say a lot of my songs, ambiguous.
Speaker: Tell me what to say.
Speaker: It's really about not being able to communicate with my parents.
Speaker: So, you know, that's that's another thing.
Speaker: All the things.
Speaker: Was a basic breakup relationship pop song, you know, all the all the things that your girlfriend at the time bought you as a gift, be a necklace, you know, be a ring, be an item of clothing.
Speaker: and you split up with this person after however long, and then you can't really face looking at all that stuff.
Speaker: You know, it's hidden in my wardrobe out of you.
Speaker: You know, that is a definite relationship song.
Speaker: You know, what was the one after that?
Speaker: I should have known another relationship song, but more of a regret about how I could have...
Speaker: dealt with things better in that relationship uh i want to see the sun i've explained to you it's just pure superb song about about the depression following a breakup uh tell me again i've told you then there was don't look so down that's about that's about a childhood friend of mine
Speaker: Can't really say much more about that, but we grew up together.
Speaker: We lived next door to each other.
Speaker: And, you know, I didn't realise until a much, much later date that he'd been through some serious problems with his parents and stuff.
Speaker: Then we had...
Speaker: You haven't got the track list in there, have you, Tony?
Speaker: No, I haven't.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: I meant to actually print it out.
Speaker: That looks so down.
Speaker: Then it was Sunshine Smile, wasn't it?
Speaker: Sunshine Smile, again, about a beautiful girl that I went out with who didn't treat me as nicely as I thought she would, you know?
Speaker: It's all great inspiration.
Speaker: It's all both ways though, you know, leading back on such things, you know, I was an answer as well.
Speaker: I'm sure you weren't.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, after that was,
Speaker: There Goes Your Life Again.
Speaker: That was back in the 80s when XTC were writing songs like Living Through Another Cuba or Milk With Guns.
Speaker: You know, it was around the time of the Cold War and, you know, everyone was worried about, you know, we don't want to we don't want a repeat of all this nuclear war nonsense.
Speaker: I wrote another song at the time called Love In A Bunker, which I'm going to resurrect for the new album.
Speaker: I think you should.
Speaker: I've heard it.
Speaker: It's very good.
Speaker: Where did you get the ideas from?
Speaker: The album was called Inns and Outs and Roundabouts.
Speaker: And actually, there was another EP or the re-release was called Ups and Downs and Merry-Go-Rounds.
Speaker: This imagery of playgrounds and funfares.
Speaker: Was that something you deliberately decided, you know, to do right at the very beginning or did it just come to you in a flash, an idea or some kind of inspiration?
Speaker: Well, the original album I decided to call Ups, Downs and Merry-Go-Rounds.
Speaker: That was the original seven-track album that we put out.
Speaker: And I thought that was just a great way of explaining the album material within.
Speaker: You know, it was like life is basically Ups, Downs and Merry-Go-Rounds, you know, good, bad, ugly, whatever.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Ins, Outs and Roundabouts was going to be the name of the second album, which...
Speaker: uh under discussion with Ray and Ben considering what happened with Les and stuff we're not going to do that album yet but we're going to put out a five track EP and the and the title track of or I say the title track it might not be first on the on the EP but uh one of the songs within the five track EP is called ins outs and roundabouts
Speaker: Yeah, I was going to come up.
Speaker: Yeah, that was kind of just my alliteration of some kind that ups, downs, merry-go-rounds, ins, outs, roundabouts.
Speaker: And then the third one will be called lefts, rights and dizzying heights.
Speaker: That's very good.
Speaker: That's actually, I haven't heard that before.
Speaker: And yeah, if you hear one of the new songs on the new EP called Inns Out and Roundabouts, you will find all three of those phrases in the chorus.
Speaker: Ups, downs, merry-go-rounds, ins, outs, roundabouts, lefts, rights, and dizzying heights.
Speaker: That's brilliant.
Speaker: There's no other way we can go, is there?
Speaker: There's no other dimensions.
Speaker: You've got up, down, around, left, right, down.
Speaker: fights you know i i don't know what else to i don't think there's a fourth one that i can think of but i i'm sure you might do if there is i will yeah the um i was going to come on talk about the the ep kind of at the end to wrap things up but another question just going back to les les black and his influence on the ban unfortunately we know he passed away in tragic circumstances but
Speaker: How did you decide to continue?
Speaker: Did you think immediately we're going to get someone new or how difficult was it to carry on afterwards?
Speaker: After Ray gave me the news, which was around Christmas of 2021,
Speaker: we both kind of were in shock so we we kind of thought you know our main concern at the moment was for his family for his kids and we didn't even think about drums and wires and i said to ray at the time i said look we're just gonna have to put i don't know what's gonna happen with the band we'll put this on hold
Speaker: And then we went to his funeral and to his reception afterwards at the Prince of Wales in Hammer, Hazemitt.
Speaker: And we met all these people and all these people that
Speaker: that Les knew that were musicians, singers, you know, the music world turned up in droves for his funeral and for his wake.
Speaker: And so people got talking and it was decided between myself and Ray that we need to put a tribute gig together.
Speaker: So, and invite loads of people to come along and celebrate Les's life as a musician, songwriter and friend.
Speaker: And that's what we did.
Speaker: So we decided to concentrate on the next six months of Ray had to spend a lot of time getting the other bands together that were playing at this tribute gig.
Speaker: They were all bands that Les had played in.
Speaker: They were all bands that Les had written music for.
Speaker: including us, of course, drums and wires.
Speaker: But of course, we needed a guitarist, didn't we?
Speaker: We wanted to play in tribute to Les, but we needed a guitarist.
Speaker: And Ben Hughes was suggested to Ray.
Speaker: I can't remember by who.
Speaker: We'd have to ask Ray for that.
Speaker: But Ben was introduced to me.
Speaker: He came along to some rehearsals at Ray's.
Speaker: uh and said that he was interested he said he loved the first album he loved the guitar he loved les's playing and that he'd like to give it a go and he's he's kind of i think he's about 46 and don't tell him i said that you might have to cut that out makes me feel young i'd actually it might be 36 sorry ben
Speaker: But yeah, he's the younger influence in the band.
Speaker: You know, he's well into, you know, things like the Smiths.
Speaker: He's got that kind of just jangly, lovely guitar style and he fits in perfectly, which I'm sure you've heard, Tony, because he's played on some of our Svamati stuff as well, hasn't he?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: It's a little song called Don't Come Easily, which you've written and...
Speaker: will probably be our next single release.
Speaker: At the moment as we speak, it's being mastered.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Our mastering engineer today said he was working, hopefully today, mastering the song.
Speaker: And Ben plays superb guitar on that track, excellent rhythm guitar, and a server that makes the entire song.
Speaker: Very, very talented guitarist.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But we decided after the gig last Christmas to celebrate Les, we decided, you know,
Speaker: We wanted to put some of my short, snappy, poppy songs down as another drums and wires thing, just to keep it going, really.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it was something different to what I was doing with Ewan Stewart, you know, which was a lot more intricate, if you know what I mean.
Speaker: It's nice to get away and thrash out a three-piece drums-based guitar, you know, and just record it in its simplest rule form, really.
Speaker: Yeah, because I sense, I'll talk about the new EP in a minute, but in a minute, I can't put my new accent now.
Speaker: Just a quick question.
Speaker: I just wanted to ask this as a typical sort of like, you know, music press question is, you know, what's your favorite Drums and Wires UK song, if you could pick one, and your least favorite and why?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: All the Things is my favorite.
Speaker: Yeah, really?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Simply because it was one that we never played live back in the 90s, because I wrote it kind of after the band sort of fell apart.
Speaker: But it was one that I really thought was a lovely, lovely melodic pop song.
Speaker: absolutely and it came to me that yeah i mean it was the first song that i recorded with ray uh and we looked at each other after we got the backing track down uh and everything and we got the guide vocal down ray looked at me and just double thumbs up you know said this sounds you know like the monkeys you know
Speaker: So it was, you know, we put all the harmonies on, made it a real pop extravaganza.
Speaker: There's about six part harmonies on that song.
Speaker: Yeah, it's just the one that I always thought was, at the time, I thought it was my best song.
Speaker: I'm still not sure, but it's the one I love listening to.
Speaker: And if you had to have a least favourite one or one that didn't turn out the way that you hoped it would or you think, oh, I wish I'd gone back and re-recorded, I could do a much better job on that one.
Speaker: Not that the song is bad in itself, you know.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm trying to say that they're awful songs, but maybe a song that is... Yeah, there's one on the album called Probably.
Speaker: Probably.
Speaker: It's kind of, on the album, it's kind of a sort of reggae type, you know.
Speaker: Yeah, I know the song, yeah.
Speaker: Scar type bass, you know, very empty sounding song with lots of drum echo and all that.
Speaker: Yeah, I originally recorded that as a demo and made it a lot more...
Speaker: of a flowing pop extravaganza with loads of harmonies and ooh-ahs, kind of like a sort of let it be type thing.
Speaker: You know, I mean, it faded out to a chorus, you know, you can sing along and clap your hands to.
Speaker: And then Ray decided that he wanted to try it out as this
Speaker: Well, literally horrible thing that ended up on the album as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker: It's my least, it's one of the ones I'm proudest of the lyrics about, I must say, because it's called Probably, because do you remember those adverts back in the 80s?
Speaker: where like Heineken used to, or Carlsberg used to.
Speaker: Yeah, probably the best lager in the world.
Speaker: Yeah, right.
Speaker: Yeah, well, at the time I was out gigging with Squire and Phoenix after that and doing about six pints a night.
Speaker: So I decided, you know, I decided I've got to cut this down.
Speaker: I've got to get off this.
Speaker: So I had a little bit of a booze problem then.
Speaker: And while I was abstaining, I wrote this song called Probably, simply referring to that advert, Probably the Best Lager in the World.
Speaker: And if you listen to the lyrics of Probably, it sounds, another one of mine, sounds like a love song.
Speaker: Sounds like you're singing about a girl or a relationship, but it is a relationship.
Speaker: It's my relationship with booze.
Speaker: Fair enough.
Speaker: So that's basically... That's what I like about it.
Speaker: I mean, there's so many songs by artists I love.
Speaker: You know, you're...
Speaker: You listen to it for so many years and then you actually think to yourself, yeah, I'm going to really listen to the lyrics.
Speaker: So then it turns out to be just something a lot deeper or different from what you thought, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker: You get caught up in the melodies of stuff and kind of the lyrics kind of going one ear and out the other, don't they?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, listening to some of your lyrics in this podcast, you've actually shown that my initial idea from listening to the lyrics is completely wrong.
Speaker: That's just Well that's given you something to think about now isn't it It has it's just the way it goes I mean if you listen to modern popular music I think it's important you listen to the lyrics and you interpret them the way that they relate to your life They might have a completely different meaning And I'm sure whoever writes them They probably say yeah well that's quite nice that you like the lyrics If you don't get what I'm saying that's fine But as long as they move in some way I think that's as an artist I think that's exactly what you're looking for Yeah Moving on to finishing the album
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: After probably, we did There Goes Your Life Again, didn't we?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We did that one about nuclear worries.
Speaker: And then we did Probably.
Speaker: And then there's one called Come On Now.
Speaker: Yeah, which I actually like.
Speaker: And I remember I chatted with you on Messenger and I really liked the song because it reminds me a lot of that pop genre from like R.E.M.
Speaker: It's even got a bit of Oasis in that influence.
Speaker: And I really liked the chorus to that song.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But you weren't too fond of it, I found out, when you replied.
Speaker: Well, it wasn't.
Speaker: I think it's a great song and I think it's got a great melody.
Speaker: But I think the reason that I'm not too fond of it is a perfectly selfish one.
Speaker: And not to diss anybody else in the songwriting world, this song was actually an amalgamation of lyrics written by myself mixed with lyrics written by a guy called Mike Bell who was in Phoenix with me.
Speaker: Oh, I see.
Speaker: And we wrote the first draft of this song, we wrote it together, and it was totally different lyrics.
Speaker: But I thought, I'm going to keep some of the lyrics, because I wrote the music.
Speaker: So I thought, I'll keep some of his lyrics, like, which side of the road are you standing on?
Speaker: I liked that.
Speaker: So I kept the tune, kept some of his lyrics in the chorus, and then I have another guy who I'm friendly with called Rainy Eskenazi, who's from Israel, and he sent me a set of lyrics about
Speaker: a personal issue of his own, you know, involving something that I'd been through as well.
Speaker: And I kind of connected with him on those lyrics and I incorporated some of his lyrics into the song as well.
Speaker: So it was kind of only...
Speaker: a third written by me which is probably why I don't like it as much as the stuff that is completely written by me because I mean it's not to be uh egotistical about it it's about you know quality control and and what you you know I'm in control of what I what what it sounds like when it goes out there if I'm the one who's writing it and I'm the one who's singing it and I'm the one who's playing bass on it
Speaker: If I'm using other people's lyrics, I'm worried about whether I've portrayed those lyrics, how they wanted them, you know, and stuff like that, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I completely understand.
Speaker: I mean, some of the stuff I've produced for TSC, songs you've written, one appeared on the album.
Speaker: We've got a new single coming out, which you've also written the lyrics and the music to as well.
Speaker: and Stuart songs it's always difficult difficult to try and interpret obviously with the music what what the person's trying to say and from a music musical point of view I mean it's well documented documented on other podcasts is that you know I try and write certain bits of music
Speaker: And then Stuart or yourself will come back and say, well, you know, that's not really what I had in mind when I wrote the music or I wrote the song.
Speaker: So a collaboration is always difficult, I think, because you're always making artistic compromises.
Speaker: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker: But it works with TSE.
Speaker: Yeah, it somehow works.
Speaker: I think we're all just laid back and if we have any grievances, we just go and kick our toys in the pram in the corner and, you know, we just basically... They don't often happen, do they?
Speaker: I mean, you know me.
Speaker: I rejoice at everything that you send me, you know?
Speaker: I'm not really a good critic of whether something is awesome when I know it is because...
Speaker: Yeah, I used to be completely different.
Speaker: I mean, back in the day, I remember I used to go and watch local bands and I used to go with you maybe and I used to go with Stuart.
Speaker: And if we thought a band were terrible, we would be quite unkind in our comments about them.
Speaker: Today, I would never, ever do that because obviously, you know, you realize obviously music is subjective and the work that goes into, well, even creating a band and then putting a set together and rehearsing, there's a lot of work.
Speaker: So I used to be very, very sort of snobbish, if you like, about certain genres of music, but I wouldn't be like that today.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Maybe some genres I just don't get, you know, like hip hop and rap.
Speaker: I mean, I appreciate the skill, but it just doesn't speak to me.
Speaker: I don't know whether it's because it doesn't have the, you know.
Speaker: Oh, it's called getting older, mate.
Speaker: Yeah, it's called getting older.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What I want to do with this roundup is because the exciting thing with Ben Hughes, that's the current lineup, yourself and Ray Lawrence.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You're working on a new P as we speak.
Speaker: and it'll have new material and from what i've heard so far um the material sounds a little bit different from the material that are all the songs that were recorded you've written for the ins and outs and roundabouts album ups downs and merry-go-rounds was that's the one that's the one i'm getting confused yeah well after to carry on after the christmas gig with ben and ray
Speaker: we thought we had a good sound so um we decided that we were going to record this fire track EP I was busy with you and Stuart doing this formato album uh and it was delayed for this this drums and wires thing was delayed for a long time but Ben was very patient uh and then we decided you know about three months ago uh let's get it together let's do this and uh and that's what we've done but we're doing it as
Speaker: Whereas the last album took four to five years to complete with loads of revisits and overdubs and months in between doing anything, myself and Ryan Bem decided this time we would do it.
Speaker: We'd know the songs, we'd rehearse the songs, we'd get together, we'd do the backing tracks, and then we'd put on maybe two guitar overdubs and maybe two backing vocal overdubs.
Speaker: So it's also it's all being recorded live basically.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm lucky enough to hear it.
Speaker: And it does sound very, very fresh.
Speaker: A couple of songs, I know that some of the mixes that you've kindly sent over are more advanced than others, but some of them, they sound exactly like that.
Speaker: They sound quite fresh and they sound quite, they sound live almost.
Speaker: And I think that's a positive, but it is completely different to some of the production work.
Speaker: Oh yeah, definitely.
Speaker: I mean, we've not got multi-track six-part harmonies and fiddly bass lines, which is what I did on the first album.
Speaker: because I had the, I had the best, you know, I had the space to do that because it wasn't anything to do with a live project.
Speaker: It was, it was a studio project, but now we're thinking that it would be nice to get out next year and do some live gigs.
Speaker: So my songwriting and our arrangements are kind of more geared towards the three piece bass drums guitar.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: What are the songs coming up on the EP and what are they?
Speaker: Can you tell us anything about them?
Speaker: Well, I'll do them from the order we've recorded them.
Speaker: There's one called Did I Tell You?
Speaker: Which is a very upbeat, fast, punchy song.
Speaker: Basically about a love-hate relationship with your missus.
Speaker: Then after that, I think, is plenty more fish, which is another heart back to some old bloke like me complaining that if there's so many fish in the sea, where the hell are they?
Speaker: I don't know if you knew what I was going to say.
Speaker: The third track will be a song called Rain Through Trees, which is written by Ben, our guitarist.
Speaker: I am in the process of writing a vocal line and some lyrics for it.
Speaker: So it's going to be kind of a slow song on the album.
Speaker: We've been showing off his wonderful acoustic guitar skills.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And as I say, I'm doing a vocal for it.
Speaker: Currently, the lyrics are veering towards...
Speaker: a reflective mood as i'm older of things as you know a reflective a reflective look back on on on a life spent uh on the edge like myself but
Speaker: And the very last song will be the actual title track, probably called Inns, Outs and Roundabouts, which is basically a very poppy, sing-along, four-minute journey through whatever.
Speaker: Brickpop, Beatles, you tell me, mate.
Speaker: So this will be the first release.
Speaker: You release the album, then you release the single called Always There, which was a single.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: That ended up on the remix album.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So this release will probably be, if you like, the first release of new material since the album.
Speaker: Is that correct?
Speaker: Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, this is Drums and Wires Mark III.
Speaker: Right, okay.
Speaker: Still called Drums and Wires UK, but...
Speaker: The only reason we were called Drums and Wires UK was because there was a Drums and Wires in America.
Speaker: Right, okay.
Speaker: And we thought, you know, if we do ever get to sort of like dominate America, we might have a problem with the lawyers.
Speaker: But anyway, I'd still call us Drums and Wires, but the name's taken.
Speaker: So when's this going to be released?
Speaker: This will be released.
Speaker: The...
Speaker: planned date we're pretty ahead of schedule actually because we we recorded the backing track for the fourth song yesterday and so we've only got one more to go excellent so uh my my pre-order release date is the first of july but it may maybe a little bit before then
Speaker: And you're recording round.
Speaker: Ray has a studio now, I think.
Speaker: Ray has a studio, yes.
Speaker: Graduated from the dining table.
Speaker: That he built, that he invested in and built during the lockdown.
Speaker: Gave him a project to get on with.
Speaker: And, yeah, that's where we do everything now.
Speaker: You know, it's a great space.
Speaker: Is the new EP only going to be available download, or are you planning to really on EP or vinyl, sorry, on vinyl or on CD format?
Speaker: Not vinyl, you know.
Speaker: Too expensive.
Speaker: Too expensive, unless there's a big demand for it.
Speaker: But, no, it's coming out.
Speaker: It'll be on a five-track CD format.
Speaker: pre-order.
Speaker: So it's available to pre-order now, is it?
Speaker: It is on Bandcamp, yeah, on johnbicknell.bandcamp.com.
Speaker: Ask for a link in the program notes.
Speaker: If people want to go on there, you can pre-order the CD version and then you get to hear some of the demo versions and some of the in-progress versions.
Speaker: that we're doing at the moment.
Speaker: Excellent.
Speaker: And then on the date of when the pre-order is released, people can download the actual finished version.
Speaker: Do you have a release date yet or is it just... Yeah, 1st of July.
Speaker: 1st of July.
Speaker: But that's, you know, that's the provisional release date, you know.
Speaker: It must take a bit later, but it might be earlier.
Speaker: And when this is released, I know that you've got some more commitments with Squire coming up.
Speaker: In between, will there be any chance for any Drums and Wire UK gigs?
Speaker: Or when are you planning to go live?
Speaker: Yeah, but me and Ray will have to start rehearsing with Anthony around July, mid-July at the very latest, because we've got a headline gig in Brighton at the end of August.
Speaker: And then we've got about a month before we go on tour with Secret Affair, which is a 15-day tour over the UK, which will keep us busy.
Speaker: I don't think there'll be any time for drums and wires stuff until early next year.
Speaker: But then having said that, Ray is very keen to carry on recording backing tracks as of when he can and when we can.
Speaker: The problem is the kit that he's using in the studio is the one he uses live with Squire.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So we've got to get it done as quick as possible.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Right, John.
Speaker: Well, that was great.
Speaker: I think we've almost hit the hour mark.
Speaker: I think that's perfect.
Speaker: Good to talk to you about drums and wires because normally when we're on our podcast here on the TSE podcast, we talk about everything to do with TSE.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So anyway, thanks for taking the time out on Sunday.
Speaker: Good luck with the EP release and I look forward to getting an autograph signed copy release before anybody else gets their hands on it.
Speaker: You always get to hear before anybody else, mate.
Speaker: Anyway, here's John.
Speaker: Good to talk to you, Tony.
Speaker: I'll talk to you later.
Speaker: Take care, John.
Speaker: Bye, mate, and you.
Speaker: Bye.
Speaker: Bye now.
Speaker: Thank you for listening to the podcast and we hope that you join us for another episode very soon.
Speaker: Until then, cheerio.
