Transcript
Danny Price: Hey everyone, welcome back to episode eight of the Table Talk Recap Podcast. I'm here with Shane Finley. I'm excited to get into this episode. This episode is going to be um on Christ's return, so a little bit of the eschatology and end times.
Danny Price: Shane did not teach this message. This was taught by Scott McKinney, who is the founding pastor of Centerpoint Church um and recently retired, so he's been able to kind of travel around the to different churches around Utah and be able to kind of, you know, he's in retirement, so to speak, but he's still able to give sermons, which has been really helpful.
Danny Price: Shane, do you want to talk about just your relationship with Scott McKinney and just center point in the past? And are you guys close here?
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Yeah, Scott. So Scott's been a mentor of mine pretty much since he moved to Utah um and has always been willing to help the church however he can. And, ah you know, he was busy growing a church ah for the first 15 plus years I was here.
Shane: So he wasn't able to be around much, but always supporting him wherever he could. And the last year, I think we're into a little over a year that he has ah been out of the lead pastor role at center point.
Shane: And so now has a little more time. And I think, so I think this is his third time he's been up in about a year period to, to cover for me. And um he also is the, are the EFCA West ah area cat catalyst for Utah. So he's kind of just oversees the different churches, the EFCA churches, as far as, um,
Shane: not overseeing, ah more just like, hey, how can I support you as a church? That's kind of his role um for all the FCA churches. so But on top of that, he's just he's just a good friend. so
Danny Price: Yeah, he's ah he's a great guy. um Yeah, he did a great job with the with the sermon. um It was really good. It was really practical, and I think he did a good job. He especially took some time just to talk about some of the different views and how it causes disunity.
Danny Price: um and And I think he did a really good job talking about how it it can create rifts in the community of the Christian believers. Um, when you really start to divide up on these things and how there's the basics that are really important and that's kind of covered in the statement of faith.
Shane: Thank you.
Danny Price: I'm going to read that. And then you kind of, you know, went, went on from there. So the statement of faith on Christ return says, we believe in the personal bodily and glorious return of our Lord, Jesus Christ, the coming of Christ at a time known only to God demands consistent or sorry, constant expectancy.
Danny Price: And as our blessed hope motivates the believer to godly living sacrificial service and an energetic mission. um So yeah, so he did he did really good. um There was a lot of, I think he he outlined a couple different views on eschatology. There's a lot of different depth to this, and we're going to be able to get into a little bit in this podcast, but there's still going to be a lot on the table. like Just like the last couple episodes, there's just a lot on the table that we're not going to get to.
Danny Price: um Shane, do you want to add anything about the messages off the top of your head that I know you listened to it, you weren't able to be there? Yeah.
Shane: Yeah, just off the top of my head, um he he kind of he pretty much covered it the way I i would hope he would have covered it, the way I would have covered it. um You know, i did preach on Revelation at the end of the story and kind of covered the four views um as far as real real brief, you know, um summaries.
Shane: And outside of doing that, um you know, to really preach deeply into any one of the views, um is you know, would have been the whole time, um if not more.
Shane: And then honestly, that's one of the reasons I like the FCA church is you do not have to hold one of the specific views. So I, I didn't, I was kind of glad he didn't choose maybe whatever his specific um view is and say, Hey, this is way I'm going to teach it.
Danny Price: ah
Shane: So.
Danny Price: Yeah. And again, you mean like you said, you could take just one of those views and try to find all these scriptures and everything, and it would be the whole sermon. It would kind of dominate the whole thing.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Price: so But yeah, no, it it was cool because I think you know him being a part of the EFCA, it really, I mean, he's been teaching on this for his whole career. you know i think Centerpoint's been in EFCA church for a while now.
Danny Price: So he was definitely within his wheelhouse and understanding the concept. And he's a great teacher. He's a good communicator. So it was really called like cool to have him.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: Um, the questions, so i you know, it's interesting, you know, cause some of the questions that I would necessarily ask him, um it's a little different asking you cause you weren't the one teaching it, but we're going to go, go with it. Some of these questions that just popped up into my head.
Danny Price: Um, the first one is, and it's a little bit of a rhetorical question, I guess. Why is it important that Jesus's return is a bodily return? Like he's physically coming back and not just a, an idea or a utopia, like coming to earth, like a transcendent experience, so to speak.
Shane: um Yeah, I know. i can tell it's rhetorical because I know you definitely know the answer.
Danny Price: Yeah, I don't actually believe that. Yeah.
Shane: But um yeah, ah um I mean, the the basic answer for me is Jesus promised he would return. um And so he was here in bodily form.
Shane: And when he promised he'd return, and And that's the way the apostles talk about his kind return, his coming back. um it there's There's really no, there's no way that we can see that where studying the biblical wording, the litter the type of literature, ah any of it to show that he made anything but a physical return.
Shane: um And yeah, so I mean, that's the quick answer.
Danny Price: Right, right. I ask that because I do, I have had friends in the past that have pretty much said that it's almost, what's what's the view? What's the view? There's a, know we're gonna get into this later, but the view that pretty much, if this has all happened, there's really never going to be a return of Christ. It's like preterism or hyper-preterism or whatever.
Shane: Yeah, preterism.
Danny Price: But-
Shane: Yeah. And that's, I don't, you know, among mainstream evangelical Christianity, that's not really a view that would be taught.
Danny Price: Right. But I have had friends that are and pretty much have told me, like, essentially, things are just going to keep getting better and better as humanity figures things out. And God coming back to us is like this, like, it's not Jesus, like, returning, like, like, in power.
Shane: Well, yeah. Okay.
Danny Price: It's like our minds, we we will be we will transcend and like evolve into like this utopia where we kind of figure it out and we kind of figure out how to do life as and then it'll be like heaven on earth. which is kind of a dangerous idea. That's why I threw that in there because i have, I know people personally that I've talked to about this and that's what they believe, which is interesting.
Shane: Yeah, and so so that's basically the, um um why am I not thinking of the word? um a Post-millennialism um kind of feels like, oh, well, we're we're moving, getting we're getting better over time.
Shane: um Like the season, the future, like Christianity is actually going to kind of better society. And we're not seeing that.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: We're, we're not seeing the world get better in any way, shape or form.
Danny Price: Right, right. right right
Shane: And then, yeah. And, and many of Pope even then, you know, and then preterism is even the further aspect of that, that, that ah all the prophecy and everything they would say was, um, it completely was, um, fulfilled in the first century.
Danny Price: Yeah, it's like done.
Shane: So, yeah.
Danny Price: it has't It doesn't need to happen anymore, right?
Shane: Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Price: So I guess that's a good segue. Just really quick, the four main views. well Could you just give a kind of a brief overview? And then is there like a reason that... I mean, i don't I don't... If you want to talk about your personal view, you can. But like, is there reason you should believe one over the other? Or like, what are some pros and cons, so to speak, of all of them?
Danny Price: I don't want... Without being too long. Sorry, it's so that's a big...
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: That's a big task to ask.
Shane: Well, also, just you know, everyone's going to tell you you should believe whatever they believe. Right.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: um So um but yeah, I mean, the the four that when you say that, what I'm thinking of would be um premillennialism um would be the first. And that would be that um saying that there is going to be all and all of these would ah talk about a an actual physical reign of our second return of Christ.
Danny Price: Right. Hmm.
Shane: But um premillennialism would say that there is um going to be a millennial reign of Christ, a thousand years, a final judgment.
Shane: eternal state. But before that, um there's going to be the a tribulation um that then comes after that, the second coming.
Shane: um And then there's dispensationalism um or it's sometimes referred to as distance but dispensational premillennialism. um But that one would say that there, and yeah, and this is the one, that's the one ah Scott kind of alluded to a lot about people trying to predict that
Danny Price: It's a mouthful.
Shane: um And they're trying to predict the rapture. um And then after that, there's going to be seven years of tribulation. um And then the um the coming, the second coming.
Danny Price: And that's all in the premillennial view, that dispensational thing.
Shane: And then, yeah, sort of.
Danny Price: That's not like a separate thing.
Shane: Yeah, it is.
Danny Price: It's kind of like a side effect of it. Okay.
Shane: Yes. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's considered a in my many ways, a so second ah view, but yeah, it's both premillennial though.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: And then there's amillennial and amillennial would say that we're living in the millennium actually right now.
Danny Price: okay
Shane: Um, but Christ will return. Um, and at that, when he returns will be the resurrection of, of everyone, um, and the final judgment, um,
Shane: At that point.
Danny Price: And my understanding of amillennialism is that the thousand years is not a literal thousand years.
Shane: And then.
Danny Price: It's like the age of the church after Jesus like ascended back into heaven.
Shane: Yes.
Danny Price: this is and As soon as that happened, it's like...
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: And then remind me, there's this whole thing about Satan being bound. Is that... That's happened... If ah if you're amillennial, you believe that that's now? Is that current? i can't I can't remember. I might be misrepresenting that.
Shane: Ooh, that's a, I think you're, I think you're right. I don't want to misrepresent that either though. Um, that, i this is definitely not an area that I study a lot because, and I'll get into my, when I give you my, read my view, I'll let you know why.
Danny Price: Uh-uh, me neither.
Shane: Um, but,
Danny Price: you don't have to You don't have to answer that then. we can put it in the note or something.
Shane: Okay. Yeah. Let's, let's wait on that. Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, that's fine.
Shane: Let's wait on that. But yeah, definitely. They don't believe in a literal thousand years because obviously it's been 2000 years.
Danny Price: right.
Shane: So it's, it's more of a, um, definitely considered, um, symbolic. And then there's a post-millennial view. Um, and that is the one I was talking about where they believe that the gospel is spreading throughout the world and kind of may going to make the future better.
Shane: um And so they would say that um after that point, then the second coming is happening and the final judgment.
Danny Price: Right. And with that view, um i'm trying to remember. Oh, it's what's that word? It was the word. It's like theocracy. It's like a theocracy. But basically, we're supposed to be in government and we're supposed to be like helping take over, not take over the world.
Danny Price: That sounds kind of bad. But like, we're becoming, yeah.
Shane: No, but they create, yeah, that you'll have a Christian, mm-hmm. Yeah, there's a governmental aspect to it.
Danny Price: Theonomy. That's what I'm thinking of. Theonomy. Theonomy. Yeah, OK.
Shane: Yeah, yeah.
Danny Price: Got it. And then the last one, um the fourth one is the Preterist. ah is Is that how you say that?
Shane: Yeah, the preterist, which I think a lot of, i think some post-millennialism, post-millennialist would be considered partial preterist, I think.
Shane: um There again, not once again, not my full area of expertise, but that's what I would think.
Danny Price: Yeah. No, that's that's good. That's as far as we you know need to get into that. what what it Where do you lean personally?
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Where do you feel?
Shane: i probably lean more towards an amillennial view. um if If I were to lean anywhere else, I am also open to um historic, the or historic premillennialism.
Shane: But i I'm more amillennialist at this point in my life.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: um I see it.
Danny Price: Everybody I talk has a good reason, and it makes me think that might be the right way to think about it. And it's hard because someone told me this about the way like the views work with Revelation. It's like if you have a certain lens and you apply it to the Revelation, it all like clicks in for whatever particular view think.
Shane: That you have.
Danny Price: you think that you have. And so if someone, it's like, if someone gives you like a red colored lens and all of a sudden all the words on the page start jumping out, it's kind of like, ah so like you're, you're out and you're like, lean more on a millennial, but then I feel like I resonate with what you said of like, but then maybe I could lean a little bit more towards like the pre-millennial view, depending if like someone had some, really you know, or if I was reading scripture someone had some really good teaching through it.
Shane: and here
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: Does that make sense? I don't know if that, I don't want to be wishy-washy on it, but like, yeah.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I would definitely say so I started as a dispensationalist um because that's what I was taught when I first gave my life to Christ.
Shane: um And then I started moving more, I would say, towards just normal premillennialism. I'm so bad at the tongue twistering.
Danny Price: It's such a bad word. It's such a bad word to say.
Shane: ah
Danny Price: Oh, it's so hard.
Shane: and then um
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And then from there, um yeah, i'm I'm not seeing things as literal as I as i used to um when it comes to um end times writings, Revelation specifically.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: So.
Danny Price: Well, that makes sense. And it is... it's What's the word? The apocalyptic literature um is that the way they label that.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: So there's there's things that aren't...
Shane: Thank you for that.
Danny Price: No, you're good. There's things that aren't always... It could be literal, but not always. um
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: It depends. and I know people, I have some close friends that have a very literal interpretation of Revelation, and like they like literally word for word, like that's what's going to happen, um which is interesting. you know And that it's hard to say, because that like that could be the case, and that could be a good interpretation. It's hard.
Danny Price: um
Shane: Yeah. And my problem with that is that people have, and just like Scott said, I mean, that's why I started turning is when I first gave my life to Christ, I literally had people walk me through a book telling me that the way it looked, I mean, and the end times were going to come within like seven years of that point.
Shane: And, you know, and then I go back to where Jesus says, no one shall know the day or the hour.
Danny Price: and
Shane: And if, if those things are literal, then I don't know if,
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: we could, you know, if we can really believe what Jesus said, there's, i don't know. That's it. That's my view.
Danny Price: Yeah, no, that's good. So a broader question about the different views. How do the different views affect your life as a believer? Or I don't know if you necessarily need to go through each view and talk about how it affects your life as a believer, but if you hold really fast to a certain view, how does that affect your life as a believer? Does that make you more pessimistic, more optimistic, more evangelistic with certain views? How does how does that work?
Shane: You know, i i think really it's going to depend on the person's personality and how that's going to work. Obviously, if you're a pessimist, you know, and you have one of these views, you're you're you're going to see things in a more negative rat light. know But the people with the best of intentions with any of these views that I know, they they they still see it as I need to live as unto Christ And I need to seek to share the gospel with other people. And now their motivation might be more based on end times versus, you know, just all we, no man knows the day or the hour of our own life. And we all want to share, you know, we want people to know God before they, they pass.
Shane: it So it might change their motivation a little bit, but I, I don't think, the view should really change how you how you live towards Christ.
Shane: um I think what it does change is it might change some of your political views, um like a pre ah but dispensationalist especially might be a little bit more focused on Israel as a nation and and what's going on there.
Shane: um And, you know, versus non-millennialist might
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: You know, see that, yeah, I mean, we might we might still have a heart for Israel, but we don't see it the same way per se. But but as far as how we're interacting with our neighbors and our, you know, community, hopefully it it's not affecting. Hopefully we're were being e evangelical and loving regardless.
Danny Price: Yeah, right. Yeah, unity is the goal with the believers, especially on this issue. And again, going back to that statement of faith, it's so great because it's it doesn't outline all the specifics of it, but it is happening. It will come.
Danny Price: Only God knows. And I mean, it should spur us on to godly living and evangelism and you know, as we live out our lives. So into that next question, which is a great, it's a great little segue.
Danny Price: How prepared should we be should be b for the end times? um And then should we be worried about it and be thinking about it often? Or should we just take it as it comes? Like if it were to happen in our lifetime, um should we be be prepping for some kind of apocalypse?
Danny Price: Should we be storing guns and cigarettes and all that kind of stuff for a potential, rap ah not not rapture, ah tribulation time? Like how should that affect our like day-to-day lives, so to speak?
Shane: um Yeah, I don't think it really should make us preparing for end times that way. um If anything, and we should be preparing for end times once again by Our job, what from what I can see, is Jesus said, go into all the world and baptize people.
Shane: I'm going to get tongue-tied on my words of the Great Commission, but teaching them to obey all that I have command.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: That should be what should we should be doing. if we're gonna If we're worried about the end times coming, that should be how we're responding to it, not us storing up so that we're better prepared to live through them.
Shane: Yeah. that um and And honestly, your question was a little long, so i kind of but I focused just on that part.
Danny Price: No, sorry. The second part was just, should we be worried about it? Should be thinking about it? Or should we just take it as it comes, so to speak?
Shane: I love the quote that Scott used once again from from C.S. Lewis, basically just saying, none of us know, so we should all be living every day ready. you know that's that That would be my answer to that.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, but that that was that was that was a good quote. As as far as like the prepping goes, that's something that me and Brian Zwollin talked about. um We've talked about that off and on because everybody always tells me, and anyone who's been up to camp that's kind of like in that mind of like...
Danny Price: prepping or like apocalypse kind of stuff. Everyone's like camp would be the best place. Cause you have like, you have a, well, you have this, you have that. There's a hydroelectric plan that you could get up and running again. we have like a little, little hydroelectric thing that it doesn't run anymore, but you could technically hook it up again and all this stuff. And everyone's like, Oh, but then Brian's like, we we talked about this.
Danny Price: Cause he's like, ah second the second that, you know, the zombie apocalypse, so to speak happens or whatever, you know, the tribulation, whatever it is,
Shane: but
Danny Price: everyone, you know, all of our families are going to go up there, you know, mine and, you know, his and the people in the mountain that are already here. And then all these other people are going to come, you know, inadvertently from around the community and stuff.
Danny Price: And Brian's like, and as a Christian, am I going to be there with a gun, you know, on the wall, so to speak? And like, all right,
Shane: Yeah, they just shoot them.
Danny Price: It's only for me and mine. And I'm going to, you know, or am I going to be like, geez, I'm a Christian. My job is to, you know, like to just share what I have and to, you know, help provide for others. And obviously there's a line of like protecting your family, but still like sharing the gospel and, you know, wanting to share with others. And so he's like, it makes it really hard for me to, when I hear people talk about like, well, we got to turn big Canyon into like a, like a bunker zone. And it's like, well,
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: But isn't that, is that what we're even trying to do? Are we trying to hunker down and survive and, you know, at the expense of everybody else around us and our neighbors and our family as Christians?
Shane: Yeah. And I guess that's my thing is, I mean, I think as men, let's just face it's just kind of fun to think about.
Danny Price: Yeah, I know.
Shane: I mean, we we're we're looking for ways to be able to be survivalist and in a in a culture where we don't have to survive anything.
Danny Price: I know.
Shane: We get to be pampered all the time.
Danny Price: Yes.
Shane: We kind of long for that. So there's a fun aspect to that. But- but No, I mean, if anything, yeah, if we were going to save every save all the food up and do all that, it literally should be for the opportunities to share the gospel, not not necessarily to keep people out.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: I mean, obviously that would be give you great opportunity if that came along. um
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: But I got news from most of those people. I think they'd be surprised at how fast the... people that are ready to kill a lot quicker than they are might, might come up on.
Danny Price: Yeah. Geez. um
Shane: um
Danny Price: Yeah. No, that's good for thought, I guess.
Shane: But yeah, i mean, yeah, yeah, it is. Like said, it's, it's always fun conversation. I get wrapped up in it myself. Yeah.
Danny Price: I know, I know, yeah. not If anyone's listening to this and you have a store of guns and ammo, I'm not knocking that, I have that as well. It's more just the whole idea of the bunker the bunker mentality.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: um Next question, there's there's kind two interpretations of this question. Should the return of Jesus give us a urgency for evangelism? And like the two interpretations are an urgency as, well, Jesus is coming back any day, potentially.
Danny Price: So I want to evangelize the people around me so that they might come to know the Lord. And i think there's a verse or there's verses in the Bible that seem to lead to the interpretation of Christ's return will not happen until the gospel has been spread throughout the world.
Danny Price: like And I can't remember if it's every nation or every family or something like along those lines knows about the gospel and then Jesus will return. Does that ring any bells to you?
Shane: Yeah, um I'm actually, i think it's in Hebrews, what you're talking about, where god is um where God is it patiently waiting for all men to know the got know him or something like that.
Danny Price: Yes, yes, yes.
Shane: I i don't know why I'm not remembering it, but um yeah, yeah.
Danny Price: Well, I'm giving you this on the fly too. This isn't a...
Shane: um You might want, if you want to look it up in Hebrews.
Danny Price: but but ship But essentially, should it give us should it give us urgency in both of those aspects, I guess, of like, we're trying to get we're trying to and like speed up Christ's return, so to speak, by evangelizing, and also there's people that we want to see come to know Jesus, so we are urgent to try to get them.
Shane: Yeah.
Shane: So obviously I would say that, yeah, urgency for, on the individual basis, I would hope for sure it does, you know, and that goes back to though, just like I said, I mean, none of us know the day or hour for any of our deaths, you know, um, you know, uh, the longer I live, the more I have friends who,
Danny Price: Should there be an urgency?
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: ah unexpectedly go, you know? um And i think we should always be looking for those opportunities ah with people.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: But also, yeah, as far as spreading the gospel throughout the world um as as an opportunity for everyone to to have that opportunity to hear the gospel message. Yeah, I think that's the case. um You know, I will say, i think we're getting to a day and age, we're very close on that one that that you, you would be hard to find the remote tribe who has never had some sort of missionary exposure.
Danny Price: Right. Yeah, exactly. um Yeah, I think it's hard because obviously we're not the ones saving people, but we're the ones that are bringing the message and like the gospel goes out with power. So it's like, it I would hesitate to tell people like you need to feel this personal crazy pressure that you are the one saving them, but still feel like that urge to go out and be evangelistic with people because the you know the end is coming, so to speak. Yeah.
Danny Price: Um, that's always been hard for me feeling like feeling that, does that make sense? That tension between, and want them to come into the Lord, you know, maybe someone, there's an unbeliever in my life. I want them to come to the Lord. So I feel a little urgent, but also not too much pressure. Like I'm the one saving them. Like it's not necessarily up to me in the end. Anyways, does that make sense?
Danny Price: That, that kind of like tension.
Shane: Yeah, definitely. There's a tension there. um And I, you know, there again, some of that goes back into, we've talked in the past of, you know, if you're versus Calvinism versus Arminianism and all that.
Danny Price: Yep.
Danny Price: Yep.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Yep.
Shane: But, um you know, but no matter which of those views you take, there's still that little bit of like, hey, I just have to trust God that if God wants this to happen, you know, it's going to.
Shane: um Hey, real quick, the verse that we were both trying to recall is 2 3.9.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Oh, yeah.
Shane: The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach ah repentance. At least that's one verse that I think we were both kind of thinking up.
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. um Let's see here. I'm going to go just keep going through the questions. um This is an interesting one. So why do people fixate on trying to predict the exact time and return of Jesus?
Danny Price: And do you know anyone or have you been a part of any of these situations where people have tried to predict it and and have been like, it's happening in this year at this time, you know, Y2K or whatever?
Shane: pardon
Danny Price: ah why is that?
Shane: Yeah, i mean think I mean, I think the why is it's, I mean, it's intriguing, right? I mean, here's this, the Bible is been this guide of mystery and lieette life application and and getting into the heart and mind of God for 2000 years.
Shane: And so there are people that are always going to kind of find... the especially because apocalyptic literature is so, um, mysterious in many ways and, um, and, uh, sensational, right.
Shane: So, so some people are going to be drawn to that at a, at a really deep level, you know, and, um, and then of those people,
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: You know, um there are going to be some that are a little on the fringe as far as how they see things. And, you know, and that's one thing I always go back to. I think Scott alluded a little bit to this in his sermon, too.
Shane: I... Anytime someone becomes obsessed theologically with something that is not some very clearly laid out in scripture, I always get a little concerned.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Right. Yeah.
Shane: And, you know, when someone starts to make a hill that they're going to die on, something that and people have been discussing and arguing about, you know, or debating about,
Danny Price: Yep.
Shane: for that long ah that worries me a little bit. And yet there always are people, right? I mean, this is just one of the many issues like that, that, that people get in.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: So, you know, and then quite frankly,
Danny Price: yep
Shane: You know, you're just like people that have a tendency to be, you know, we all have some of those friends that are into like sci-fi or like, I know you love Lord of the Rings, but then you have some friends that are like way into Lord the Rings.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Like, you know, those people that like learn the language and all that.
Danny Price: Yeah. thank you
Shane: Yeah. Right. So, so people that are in into apocalyptic literature have a tendency. Sometimes there's, there's some that can get that way, you know, a few, right.
Shane: it's like the, it's a very, very fringe, not very many, but there's a few.
Danny Price: Yep. ah Yep.
Shane: And then, so you get those.
Danny Price: Yep.
Shane: And then all of a sudden you get someone who starts like thinking it would, they can start breaking the code, right. Putting these things together and literally come down to the day. um Now, every one of those people has been proven wrong.
Shane: so far. oh
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And, you know, and I think Jesus proved them wrong. I keep telling people, quit trying to predict because then Jesus is not going to come back. Like he's ka' not going to prove you right. He's going let you get it right when he said no one's going to know the day.
Shane: So, um but I think you're just going to have some, because it is, it is very interesting and it's, it's interesting to talk about.
Danny Price: Oh, gosh.
Shane: I, you know, I don't, i so even teasing about it a little bit, I want to make sure I'm, I'm not trying to tell people you shouldn't, it that you should never talk about it.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: You should get, but we all know that there are people who take whatever it is you're talking about and they, they take it to the extreme.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And then quite frankly, you know, there it's, it's an easy thing to get kind of some fringe people excited about and make yourself know, you know, you can get your five minutes of fame, right.
Shane: Um, by, by trying to get people behind your, your prediction. So, so that's why I think,
Danny Price: Yeah. So have you been, have you had friends or people that have tried to get you on that? Like it's happening at so and such at the time.
Shane: No, no friends. I will. Like i said, when I first became a Christian, um I went to a Bible study in college um where they were way into ah um Tim LaHaye. I think it it was Tim.
Shane: Yeah. I want to say it was Tim LaHaye and some book he had written and they were, reading that was the Bible study.
Danny Price: OK.
Shane: They were reading to this book and all the predictions. And i within like eight weeks, I got really turned off and was just like, is this really what I came here to learn about Jesus and how to be more like Jesus and,
Danny Price: Oh.
Shane: So I quit going. But so they were way into that.
Danny Price: Oh, yeah.
Shane: And then during Y2K, I mean, that was it was a huge thing. i There were so many people predicting that Y2K was it. like it they
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: I mean, you're too young to remember that. But I mean, it was a big thing. I mean, people were saying that the world was for sure going to end on Y2K.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yep. I've heard lot of people start saying, not like advocating for it, but saying there will be ah large increase in uptick in people predicting because Jesus's ministry started when he was 30.
Danny Price: And that's coming up here. 2000 years from that time is, you know, coming up here.
Shane: a
Danny Price: So like in 2033, people are like, I think that's so kind of already on like the the docket, so to speak, of people already talking about stuff like that, which is interesting because I'm like, so, and it's, it it is sad for me at least, because I have known some of my parents' friends in in the past
Shane: Yeah, that makes sense.
Danny Price: not like nobody super well, but like acquaintances of. And it's been hard when I see them get so into this. And if you're an end, like a quote unquote end times watcher, and like it it can, like you were saying, it can almost like dominate like every part of your theology and every part of like your, like you're a new cycle, everything you you go off of, it's like, oh my gosh, it's happening. Oh my gosh, it's here. Oh my gosh.
Danny Price: Like everything, it becomes, like you said, very sensational. And it's hard because I feel like, as a person that can almost twist you and make you a little bit, um, what's the, what's the word, just a little bit honoring, a little bit like hyper fixated on something because you're like, well, it has to be this way. Cause I've spent my entire life or however long, you know you've been thinking about this. i've been, I spent the last 20 years, you know, fixating on this particular view and looking at all these new cycles and look at what, what, what's happening with Israel. Look at what's happening with this.
Danny Price: And it's, I feel like you're missing out on a lot of other things that are happening in your life because you're so focused on that. I've seen that happen with a couple of my parents' friends, which is a bummer because I think you could be missing, that you can be missing out on, you know, your life and like evangelizing the gospel and all that stuff just because you're so excited about this one particular side thing.
Shane: Yeah.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: So...
Shane: No. And I, yeah, I would totally, there again, I i think it's a bummer anytime any Christians get sidetracked into any secondary kinds of things, because I feel like, yeah, I think it it hurts our witness.
Shane: I really do.
Danny Price: oh But especially for those listening, I'm not at all trying to say you should not have a interpretation of or a way that you see scripture.
Shane: and her
Danny Price: you know And so so read stuff for yourself. like come up with your i don't I hesitate to say opinion. I hate when people say opinion. Like, what's your opinion on that? It's like, well, what's your interpretation of scripture?
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: But...
Shane: Do your best to have a, have a, have a strong, a strong, well thought out interpretation, you know?
Danny Price: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I would never tell someone, don't you don't even need to think about this.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: like Or or you know all the other issues we've talked about in the past couple weeks.
Shane: Well, and we,
Danny Price: It's okay to know about that. It's just if you hyper-fixate on it, it seems unhealthy for a believer.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and like we even, you at the beginning, we're discussing, well, where where do we land, you know, right? You know, and I kind of talked about, I was on a journey. I, you know, I've moved a little bit as I've read.
Shane: So-
Danny Price: Yeah. I don't know if I have a view. like i like For those listening, if like you're curious, I'm not holding back. i don't have I don't think I have a solid view where I'm like i'm firmly planted in the ground.
Danny Price: I will say a couple observations that I and i have. Scripture talks a lot about suffering and talking about how to suffer and that we will suffer. And Scripture to also talks a lot about, you know, the way the world is. And so for me, when I hear certain views that talk about how things are going to get better and better and better, it's hard for me to see that as accurate because I'm like, I don't know if I see that. I see things getting worse. I see us getting more depraved. I see us getting less close to Jesus. I say i see us walking away from truth and away from Scripture.
Danny Price: So...
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: And it's hard. I'm not saying that that like means makes me line up with certain views or not, but it's harder for me when I hear people talk about how we're going to have like this theocratic reign of like Christ that's going to come. And maybe it will.
Danny Price: And if it happens, you know praise God, hallelujah. But just based off of history and based off the Bible and what I've seen so far, it's it's hard for me to be like, wow, we're really just getting better as a society. And like we're getting to the point where we're going create this awesome like theocracy under God. And it's obviously Jesus will be the one to do it anyway. So it is, it's not up to us, but it doesn't seem like we're going that direction, if that makes sense. So that's one observation. And the other one is it, whatever the one that I guess ofve out of all the views, whichever, whichever one that you're sometimes like the simple, the simple is always easier. And I think when you start to get into these views, like preterism and certain things where you have to really stretch the
Danny Price: the interpretation to like, well, if you look at this, actually, if you, like I was doing the little research on this, but a lot of people who are like predators, for example, they'll like go back to Josephus and they'll find all these crazy, like the bulls and that the seven bulls mean this. And then the seven trumpets means this. And it's like, you're having, if you're having to go way out of your way to prove something that also doesn't probably seem,
Danny Price: Like that's the right interpretation. And again, that's all this is vague. I don't actually have mine, but those are all like the observations that I have so far about revelation is if you're stretching it way too far, it might not be right from my understanding of scripture. And also things don't seem to be getting better.
Danny Price: So ah is that fair, Shane? What do you think about that?
Shane: Yeah, no, i think I think that's a great way to state it. And, you know, I think it's okay to say you don't have a strong view. um I do think it's... Very worthy of just having a well-rounded understand, at least a basis of each of you, you know, at least where you kind of have a base foundational understanding of each view.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Right. So final question um for those of those people listening, just so that they can maybe kind of do their own research. What should a believer study in terms of books, both in the Bible, but also maybe be other books?
Danny Price: what What would be a good place to go to kind of get a bigger understanding, a better picture of the different views of Revelation? Again, not hyper fixated on it, but just, hey, we're where where where maybe would I sit?
Danny Price: where Where would I interpret the scripture on this? um where would Where would someone go to do that?
Shane: Well, I would say in the Bible, i mean, obviously Daniel and um Revelation are your kind of key as far as the apocalyptic literature.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: um But also i would and challenge, encourage people to read every verse in the New Testament, especially that where Jesus talks about him coming again or any of the apostles talk about it and everything within context of that.
Shane: Um, I, I would definitely think they should read, you should read that. Um, and then as far as a book, I recommend, i the only, the best book I've read and I haven't read the whole thing. I've been kind of going through it kind of, um,
Shane: a few key passages at a time through revelation is a book given, um, to me by a mutual friend of ours, um, by Steve Gregg and it's called revelation. The four views, a parallel commentary.
Shane: Uh, and I'm looking at it on Amazon right now for seven, 1690 1662. So it's not much,
Danny Price: That's not bad.
Shane: Um, and it's, yeah, it's really been helpful for me. Um, because it, like I said, I've already said, this isn't, and this is another one of the topics I don't get that deep into.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: So trying to, I'm always like going, well, how does this view see this? And how does this view see this? And he just, he gives the passage and then he breaks down all four views in a parallel format, um, how they interpret that.
Danny Price: and yeah
Shane: And so it's really helped me a lot.
Danny Price: That's really, that is really cool. I didn't even know you read that book. um I've heard about that book from other people, actually. So that's a resource.
Shane: Well, like say, I'm reading that book. What I've kind of had done is I've i've i've literally just picked out, I'll take a week and I'll pick out two or three of the passages of Revelation that I've always kind of questioned or had or wondered about.
Danny Price: Reading it. Yeah.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: And just for fun, all I'll spend, you know, 30 minutes and read a few like that.
Danny Price: Yeah, no, that's good. For me in the past, the two resources that I've, ah other than like just like reading the Bible, I haven't read a book on Revelation, like I've ever written a commentary. um But the the two resources that I have, that kind of given me my my kind of like brief understanding of it was...
Danny Price: The Village Church, which is Matt Chandler down in Texas, um they did a series.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: This was like maybe two years ago on Revelation. And it was really interesting. There were some really cool things that he drew out of it. And again, he did a great job. Not like this is the only view that you take. It was less about all the views and more about teaching through just the book of Revelation and like the things that you can kind of glean from it, regardless of what you are and like...
Shane: No.
Danny Price: Pre-mill, post-mill, all that. And then the other um resource is in terms of podcasts. There's a ton of podcasts out there. I'm a big propon proponent of Mike Winger and his podcast.
Shane: no
Danny Price: I love that. I love that guy. No way. ah But he he did one, I want to say like four or five years ago. And it was just a pre, it was like an, it's like an hour long and you could listen to it if you're curious, but it's the different views, the different Christian views of Revelation Explained.
Danny Price: um So you could just Google that or put that into your podcast thing. And it's like an hour long, but he does a really good job. And he gets into some of like the crazy terminologies. And he, man, it's crazy with even within each view, it blew my mind how many different like sub views like you were saying.
Shane: Yes.
Danny Price: And I was like, and he like has to move on from it so fast because there's so many, but I'm like, oh my gosh, like there is so much like little nitty gritty. So yeah. Anyways, that was those are those are the two things that I have used in the past to that have kind of helped me not necessarily form an opinion or form an interpretation, but just like give me some kind of education on it.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: So anyways, um that that brings us to the end of our episode.
Shane: Cool.
Danny Price: We're we're late for 40 minutes. Good grief. We're we're going for it.
Shane: They keep getting longer. We're going to have to...
Danny Price: I know, I know. we're gonna have to We're going to have to start shortening things. It's fun to talk about this stuff. I'm enjoying it.
Shane: Yep, I know.
Danny Price: I'm hoping if you guys are listening, i hope you guys, you know if you're from Mountain View or from you kind of surrounding communities that you're enjoying this.
Shane: i enjoy it, too.
Danny Price: um i apologize. i realized last week, for some reason, my voice was clipping out really like randomly, but it was like super distracting and obnoxious. I didn't even notice it until I went back and listened to it.
Danny Price: And it's something that happened in post-production that wasn't on our original recording. so so So those of you who were listening to that last week and were frustrated with me, I apologize. um I have no idea what that was. And I don't even know how to fix it because it wasn't something that we even heard when I was like previewing this and editing this for to publish. So anyways, apologize for that, guys.
Danny Price: um Again, if you guys are enjoying this, you know please reach out to both of us. one of our One or both of us, let us know if there's any... um Just comments or questions that you had, um please let me know as well. um If you have my number or Shane's number, you can reach out. Also, my email should be linked, on the especially on the Apple Podcast.
Danny Price: um platform. My email should be on there. Um, I'd love to hear questions and especially if they're like relevant to the message. So like listen to the message on Sunday, if you're at Mountain View fellowship and then shoot me a, shoot me a text for a question that you'd like to have answered. I would love to do that. I know Shane would too.
Danny Price: Um, so one or both of us, feel free to reach out to us. Um, hoping this is just encouraging and fun for you guys to listen to just hear us banter back and forth about things that are really hard to talk about, especially recently. There's been a lot of big things.
Danny Price: So anything you want to add Shane?
Shane: No, that's it. Yeah, just I would love to get, it'd be fun to read some of the questions and start seeing how we can fit those in.
Danny Price: Yeah, absolutely. Awesome, guys. Well, hope you guys having a great day, and we'll talk to you guys next week. Bye-bye.
Shane: Bye.
