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S01E06: Clean with Tad... and Ray Harryhausen?
49 Plays1 year ago
We hang out in the kitchen for the final part of our conversation with Tad Leckman, where he shares some amazing stories of his days at ILM. You won't want to miss it, so grab your droids and brooms! It's the Star Wars Cleaning Crew!
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Transcript
Introduction and Humor
00:00:01
Speaker
We're back in the kitchen with Tad Lekman and some amazing stories about episode one. Grab your joints and brooms, it's the Star Wars Cleaning Crew.
00:00:09
Speaker
Welcome back to the Star Wars Cleaning Crew.
Celebrating The Phantom Menace
00:00:12
Speaker
You know, before we dive back in with Tad, we are coming right up to the 25th anniversary of the Phantom Menace Star Wars Episode 1. We went to see that in the movie theater back in the old movie theater just last week with my friend Jeff. And we're going to talk about that on our next show. But when I was recording with Tad, it was right before Jeff and I were going to go
00:00:34
Speaker
And so we wrapped up the conversation that you heard last week.
Memories with Tad and Special Effects
00:00:38
Speaker
And then Tad and I, well, I started telling him about what my plans were to go see episode one. And we started getting into another conversation about episode one and some memories around that, which led to a bunch more great ILM stories. So we're going to talk about special effects and practical special effects. And you're going to hear some amazing, amazing names from the history of science fiction here.
00:01:03
Speaker
So let's pick it up right there and join Tad Lekman back in the kitchen. I think I was sitting right behind George for our company screening. Were you really? At the Coronet in San Francisco.
00:01:16
Speaker
Oh my God. What was that like? Like, wow. What a, like, what a place to see that movie. Like what a place to see that. So I've got that. I've got two seeing Star Wars Phantom Menace stories. That's one. And the other one is, I think less than a month later. Yeah. I got to see it sitting next to Ray Harryhausen. No way. So Ray Harryhausen, the father of stop motion animation. How did that happen?
00:01:46
Speaker
He was in the, he came to a tour of ILM. I was working in the art department. Everyone always came by the art department, the model shop, best places to bring it to work. So he came through and we showed him some stuff and he was super nice. He was there with his wife and they were getting the tour and he indulged just and we told him, he told some stories. And then he left on one of the rest of his tour and this is early, this is in the morning. And then at around one,
00:02:14
Speaker
My boss, Mark Moore, who is the creative director of the art department, called my extension at my desk. He's like, what are you doing right now? I was like, I'm working. He's like, no, you're not. We're going to go see Star Wars screening at the big theater in Marin, the big one in San Rafael. We're going to go and we're going to go see it with Ray Harryhausen. And you need to go grab Alex Theron and Michael Brunsfeld. And you need to get over here right away.
00:02:42
Speaker
Dennis Murin's gonna be there also, but they said I could bring some people in you're coming I was like what and so we've got there It was like five of us from the art department Ray Harryhausen and his wife and it was around time for the screening to happen It was like a two o'clock show or something. Yeah, there was no one there
00:03:02
Speaker
So we sat in the middle of theater, right? There were literally like 10 of us there. And I sat next to Ray and was prepared to move as soon as Dennis Mirren showed up. Dennis got stuck in a meeting and couldn't come. Oh my gosh. I sat there watching the whole movie and then throughout and we had a nice long time to chat because they were trying to hold the movie for Dennis and they didn't.
CGI vs Practical Models in The Phantom Menace
00:03:25
Speaker
So we were talking about all kinds of stuff. Yeah.
00:03:27
Speaker
And then the movie starts playing and we're watching it. And then Ray Heron Howson leans over to me and he says, is that all computer? Yeah. And I said, actually, no, that's a miniature. Yeah, computer stuff in there. But that's a miniature. He's like, Oh, and then 10 minutes later, is that all computer? Like, no, actually, with Yes, that is but that's over there. And so throughout the whole movie, he's leaning over and we're talking about the visual effects in the movie.
00:03:55
Speaker
That is so crazy. And it's the best though. You'll like this. The best is when the big wide shot of Naboo with the waterfall. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, he leads over and says, that looks like a Jim Gurney painting. And it looks exactly like in the Dinotopia book. Yes. Yeah. I know exactly what. Yes. Of course you do because everyone does. And if you've read that book, that's what everyone thought. Yeah. I had forgotten that Ray Herrhouse is like really good friends with James Gurney.
00:04:22
Speaker
Okay, and live near him in England. And it was and so Dennis finally showed up. The end. So we met him out in the parking lot. And the first thing Ray Harris doesn't says that one shot looked just like a Jim Gurney painting. Did you like like, oh my god, he's calling him out on it right now. Great.
00:04:44
Speaker
So what was Ray Harryhausen's reaction to that? Because so much of what happened in episode one, like you said, there's the whole CGI route, but then there was still so much practical
00:04:58
Speaker
that directly came from his work. So what became clear to me as we were talking was when he left the art department and went on the rest of the tour, I think they only took him to like workstations and only showed him computer stuff. The CGI stuff, right.
00:05:14
Speaker
I mean, I'm sure they took him to the model shop, but I don't think any of the episode one stuff was still around. I don't think the episode two stuff was in progress yet. So they couldn't give him the full like, oh, by the way, this is how we did it. So I think he got kind of a skewed view of like how much miniature work was in there and how much like if you'd only been there a year before and seen Paul Houston in the parking lot with the gigantic miniature of Mos Eisley made out of upturned garbage cans and like
00:05:44
Speaker
It would have been exactly what he was used to. And then Paul could have shown him the amazing ways that they were using the computer to extend that
Audience Appreciation Shift
00:05:53
Speaker
and do cool things with it that you couldn't do with a normal mission. Yeah. It's interesting to think about back then because I do remember the conventional wisdom being that it was all computer generated. Yeah. And people were kind of surprised to hear that there was a lot of practical effects and were disappointed back then at the time.
00:06:12
Speaker
It was kind of like, oh, like we wanted this all to be computer, like Jurassic Park. Fast forward to, I remember being at Star Wars Celebration before the Mandalorian premiered and being at the session on that. And they did a whole short on how the Razor Crest was practical and they had, speaking of John Knoll doing stuff in his house, right? Like building the model with Hal.
00:06:38
Speaker
And, and, you know, I remember like being on a text chain with you and with Hale, Hale Hickle, right? Is his last name.
Visual Effects Challenges in the 90s
00:06:45
Speaker
Yeah. And just being able to tell Hale, like you wouldn't believe the reaction that came from the crowd when they realized there was practical effects and seeing, you know, the evolutions of the shots with the, the practical mats and all of that kind of stuff. It's amazing how the taste, you know, kind of goes from one to another. And we're, we're definitely back in that place where we, we just love what we love.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's true. And that was a time when we just, we had to use whatever would work at the time. Yeah. And whatever was cheap and fast, like we had a huge schedule. Part of that calculus was, oh, we've got an amazing model shop that's really fast at making these giant models. They can go very fast compared to our fairly new digital artists. Yeah. Great. But they can't make that volume of stuff that fast. Much better to build it with a model and then photograph it and then put it in the computer and do things.
00:07:36
Speaker
And I think one of the best things, if you're interested in seeing this in action, is the making of documentary of episode one that came with the DVD. And now, you know, I know it's available on the digital version. You can
Making of Episode 1
00:07:49
Speaker
get to it. I don't know if you can get to it on Disney Plus, but I might have watched that making of documentary more than I even watched episode one.
00:07:57
Speaker
And it was amazing. So like, I think it's true, it must have been episode one, that it was kind of the most documented film, I think in history.
00:08:09
Speaker
And I was reminded not too long ago that I also think they were doing not live streams, obviously back then, but I think they were posting regular behind the scenes videos from the set of George talking about the work. I think it was Lynn Hale who was putting those together. It was like a weekly thing and here's an update and that's all we had back then, right? So it was like,
00:08:32
Speaker
were fixed on it. It was, it was amazing. But in that episode one documentary, some of the, some of the scenes of John Knoll, I just love of him going, you know, a much younger John Knoll going, well, I don't really know how we're going to do that. And I don't really know how we're going to do that. And kind of seeing the look on his face and some of the other ILM guys, you know, ranging from curiosity to panic.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yes, that is that is the constant state at that time in visual effects, because, you know, part of my job was often helping bid out movies. Yeah. The producers on the previs and the art side and we'd get a script and we would mark down like I think this is what's happening here. We got this sequence where there, you know, there's a chase.
00:09:16
Speaker
there's a trick chase across the top of this train. And here's how we think we're going to do it. And here's how many shots we think it's going to be. Yeah, you should really storyboard this to get a better sense of that. But even then you just got the storyboard. That's where my team would like animate them. So at least like, oh, this shot that is one storyboard is actually going to be 125 frames long. But it's always like, also, we've never done this before.
00:09:37
Speaker
Like all the time where every so like twisters like we've never done tornadoes before perfect storm We've never done see like water simulation and stuff before dragonheart. We've never done a full character That's the main character in a movie like except for casper which we were almost done. And by the way that it was a sheet like so It's not very expressive
00:09:58
Speaker
Sheet. Every single thing we did was something new and also was something that was helping us figure out what we would need to do for George on someone else's dime. George is the shrewdest businessman who's- King of other people's money, right? Yes. I feel like I'm less connected to visual effects than I have been for a long time, but I do feel like that is something that is gone, except for the occasionally
00:10:23
Speaker
How do we deage Harrison Ford? How do we deage folks for Martin Scorsese's movie? But even increasingly like, yeah, we know how to do that. We've done that a hundred times. Like this is how we're going to do it. Like it is just kind of like we're going to create a synthetic creature and that creature is going to act in the movie. That is. Okay. Done that. Yeah. So I think that's why I think the TV stuff is very exciting for visual effects folks at ILM too, which is like, Oh, how are we going to do this, but do it for a TV show on a TV budget? How are we going to do this with the volume?
00:10:53
Speaker
And, you know, when I was in Singapore, we spent a lot of time, Lucasfilm spent a lot of time figuring out what a TV show would be like, a live action, Star Wars TV show, and ultimately said, yeah, too expensive. We won't do that right now. They figured it out. They figured it out.
Anticipation for New Star Wars Content
00:11:11
Speaker
They certainly did figure out how to do TV shows and The Mandalorian and Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka and especially Andor later. I was just watching a few of the episodes of Andor which I really think are some of the most amazing
00:11:27
Speaker
Not just Star Wars content, but science fiction content ever. We're happy that they did. So we're happy to get any Star Wars that we can. Speaking of which, there will be another new Star Wars show, a live action Star Wars show that will premiere on June 4th.
00:11:44
Speaker
called the Acolyte. We'll be talking much, much more about the Acolyte as we get closer to that release date.
Star Wars Fireworks at Disneyland
00:11:51
Speaker
I did want to let you all know that just last night I was able to get out to Disneyland. They're having the Season of the Force celebration, so
00:12:00
Speaker
kind of the days around May the 4th is an official festival now at Disneyland, which is really fun. And they have a lot of new food and merchandise and things like that. But the reason I went last night was they are now doing a thing called Fire of the Rising Moons. And they're doing something that I thought the very first night that I ever went to Star Wars Galaxy's Edge
00:12:27
Speaker
We were there and the fireworks started going off and it was a great view of the backside of the fireworks at Disneyland. You know, if you go on the Jungle Cruise, they always talk about the backside of water when you go behind the waterfall. This was the backside of fireworks.
00:12:44
Speaker
and I was watching them and it was super fun to watch it from from Star Wars Galaxy's Edge and there kind of was a little bit of a mythology that that some of the the cast members who are a little bit more into the fiction of Galaxy's Edge you know that that the Batuans were celebrating uh it was always kind of fun but I thought from that very first night they ought to put Star Wars music
00:13:08
Speaker
Synchronize it to the fireworks so that when you watch it from Star Wars galaxies edge, it's a Star Wars like experience Well, in fact, that is what they have finally done and I'll tell you it was really really good It was clear in some places that
00:13:27
Speaker
It wasn't the fireworks show that was designed for the music they were doing, if that makes sense, right? So they were kind of back fitting the music into the fireworks show that already existed. And it's a completely different narrative experience if you're watching it from the front side.
00:13:43
Speaker
But it was still really special. They do some things where they light up the spires and they light up the rocks differently depending on the music. And it was just a really good time. So I believe that this is not going to stop at the end of the festival. It's going to keep going forever. So if you do get out to Disneyland, make sure you stay at night and watch the fireworks show from Galaxy's
Episode Wrap-up
00:14:08
Speaker
Edge.
00:14:08
Speaker
Well, that's it. Hope your kitchen is clean. And thanks again for joining us on the Star Wars Cleaning Crew. Please remember to like and to subscribe and especially to write reviews. That's what really gets us up the algorithm. So I appreciate you. We'll see you again next Tuesday for Star Wars Cleaning Crew. Bye bye.
00:14:34
Speaker
Oh, yeah!