Transcript
Speaker: There are many things I associate with The Wizard of Oz. Most of my childhood memories revolve around this All -American classic film. At my granny's house, my cousins and I used to watch this movie on repeat. They even had a special edition VHS tape that had this little booklet attached to the front cover that had pictures of the actors and details about the filming.
Speaker: And I flipped through that more times than I could count. We also love pretending to be different characters and acting out scenes from the movie or making up scenes on our own. For the longest time, I was so afraid of Elmira Gulch and everything that she was in, I would run and hide because I was so scared of her.
Speaker: As I got older, my love for the Wizard of Oz continued. I started collecting memorabilia and books and anniversary edition movies. I even convinced my parents to get me my own Caron Terrier, which is the breed that Toto was. But one of my most vivid memories of the Wizard of Oz involves a forest fire.
Speaker: one of the scariest times of year in Eastern Kentucky's forest fire season. There were many times growing up that school was canceled because the fires would be so bad. I remember ash falling from the sky at recess because every mountain around me was on fire. One particular season, when I was probably 11 or so, the fires made their way into my hauler. We had seen them on the ridge line before, but they had never come down to the houses, but this time they had. You can say what you will about the people that live in the Appalachian Mountains.
Speaker: You can call us poor. You can call us whatever stereotype you want. But one thing you can't call us is lazy because I remember my elderly grandfather and my dad fighting forest fires alongside trained firefighters to save his house and mine. There were times the firefighters would walk away because the flames were too high or too hot and my puppy and my dad would stay and circle the flames until they were more manageable and the crew would come back to help put the fires out. I remember the burns my mommy treated on them and even the men who were there to help.
Speaker: But this particular fire was different. It traveled faster and was harder to control. And one thing about me is I'm a worrier. Even as a kid, I feel like I was more aware of things other kids my age seemed not to notice. So the fact that fires were racing towards my house really bothered me. I watched from our kitchen window as firefighters sprayed the side of our house with flame retardant foam as a last ditch effort to save the tiny place we called home.
Speaker: I watched as they beat back flame after flame as tears streamed down my face. My mom had packed all our most precious things into bags, ready to flee at any second. To try to calm me, she turned on the TV and cuddled with me on the floor. At 11 or 12, I was nearly as tall as my mom, but she sat on the floor with me in her lap and together we watched The Wizard of Oz. TMC was playing a 24 hour marathon and I watched that movie over and over again until I fell asleep in my mom's lap. The next morning when I woke up,
Speaker: The flames were gone, and I knew the magic of the wizard had saved my house. Fire is a scary thing. It's so unpredictable. What starts as an innocent flame can quickly turn dangerous and out of control. When an officer initially responded to a fire at a local yogurt shop, he was expecting to deal with an accidental fire scene. He could have never predicted that over 30 years later,
Speaker: The quadruple homicide he found there would haunt him every single day. He would have never guessed that over 30 years later, we would still be searching for justice and answers. This is the story of the yogurt shop murders.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: Welcome to coffee and cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Alison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement.
Speaker: So justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Speaker: Alison, I know you have the greatest fondness for frozen yogurt. Yes, and fire fighters. Because that's where you met Rodney. Yes. Yes. I know. Yeah. So you said yogurt and firefighter. And I was like, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yes. Your favorite. I know. So I think I've told it on here before. But just in case I haven't, my daughter and I, we had just moved back to Central Kentucky.
Speaker: And she had been begging me to go to orange leaf a local frozen yogurt shop. Over and over and over again and i had just started a new teaching job and i was exhausted and i kept saying no let's you know maybe tomorrow.
Speaker: and then she'd ask again the next day. And I said, maybe tomorrow, and then she asked again. Anyway, one night I got home from work, I picked her up from daycare and she didn't ask me. And I was like, you know what, now's the night. So I said, hey, do you wanna go to get some frozen yogurt tonight? And of course she was like, yes. So we got to the frozen yogurt shop and I just wanted to get this frozen yogurt and go home.
Speaker: So I filled up my little cup and I was like, okay, let's head home and eat the froyo there. And she was small, right? She was, she was four. And she was like, mommy, please can we eat it here? And I was like, oh, let's just go home. I'm so tired. And she was like, please.
Speaker: And so I agreed and about five minutes later, En walked Rodney with the rest of his truck crew and they walked past and I of course saw the uniforms and he turned around and he smiled and I saw the blue eyes and the dimples and that was it. If you were done. That's right. Yep. Yep.
Speaker: And I remember when they were super popular, Frodo was like all the rage. Because Pikeville got a Frodo shop when I was in high school, I think, Sweet Frogs. Oh, that's in Gatlinburg. They have some of those in Gatlinburg. Well, it closed now, but it was near Walmart because, you know, duh. Right. And we would go there.
Speaker: my cousins and I, when we would go out to eat after every meal. And it was like the best. Right. And then a few years later, we did get an orange leaf and it's downtown and it's still in business. And I think because it's close to the college and kids go there. Gotcha. Yeah. Plus orange leaf is amazing. Yeah. It's been a minute though, since I've had frozen yogurt. So good. We go every year on the anniversary of us meeting. Stop. Yep. We really do. Yep. Every year. Huge. I know.
Speaker: Well, today's case takes place. Isn't so cute. No, but it is at the height of the Froyo craze. Oh, okay. So in the Nondies in Austin, Texas. So in particular, Friday, December 6th, 1991. And, you know, that is just very Nondies to me, frozen yogurt, bright colored track suits. Like, you know, I can just picture it.
Speaker: And that particular Friday started out just like any other Friday for the victims at the center of today's case. And Allison, the victims today are really young, which is sad. So there is 13 -year -old Amy Ayers, 17 -year -old Eliza Thomas, 17 -year -old Jennifer Harbison, and her sister Sarah, who is 15. So we have a 13 -year -old, a 17 -year -old,
Speaker: 15 year old and a 17 year old so all young. Yeah, very young So that particular day they were all obviously at this frozen yogurt shop But that was because they were all really good friends Sarah and Amy were really close and we'll talk about how they meet later and they were at the shop at that time because Jennifer and
Speaker: and Eliza worked there. And so they were waiting to ride home with them when the shop closed at 11. So that's why they're all there at this particular time. So the two 17 year olds work there. The two younger ones were just, well, one was Jennifer's sister and the other. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. And I posted their picture or pictures
Speaker: on the next page, just so you could kind of put a face. Oh, they're all so cute. Yeah, they are cute. I think they look so much older for their age, but I think that's kind of indicative. It was the hair. It was the hair. Yeah. So I wanted to take just a minute before we hop into the details of this case. And this one is going to be one where we talk about what happened.
Speaker: And then there are some confessions that take place and even a trial. Okay. And that's overturned. So we have a lot to talk about. But before we get into all of that, I thought we could take just a second and get to know each of these girls. Okay. So according to statesman .com, each of them shared a love. Mm hmm.
Speaker: for animals, particularly horses and lambs. So because of that, they all naturally gravitated towards the FFA, the Future Farmers of America. That makes sense. Yes. And because of that, that's how their friendships all kind of bloomed. Okay. So they all, even though the one is the sister of one of the, they all know each other and they're involved in the same things. Yes.
Speaker: Yep. Gotcha. So Jennifer, the 17 year old, was the oldest in the group. She was a senior at the local high school and then her sister Sarah was a freshman on the same campus. Okay.
Speaker: Jennifer and Sarah spent their early childhood in a different city, but their family moved to Austin after their parents divorced. And they actually had plans to attend a Catholic school, but ended up transferring to that local high school where they both attended. They were very active students at school, so they were heavily involved in the school's FFA chapter because, you know, they love animals, but they were also great student athletes. Jennifer Rantrack and Sarah played both volleyball and basketball.
Speaker: No, all things, none of which I am good at. Yeah. So kudos to you, Jennifer and Sarah. Yeah. I love animals, but on a smaller scale, cats and dogs, horses kind of make me a little nervous. I think because they're so big. I think you've always said you're fine with animals, but you just don't want to shovel their poo. Yeah, I don't want to shovel their poo. That's where I draw the line. Draw the line. Yeah.
Speaker: Jennifer and Sarah also had really active parents as far as involvement in their lives, which I think was really great, especially since their parents were divorced. Jennifer's parents had actually just purchased her a car, but under the condition that she had to get a job to help make the payments. I think that's fair. So that's why she was at the yogurt shop. Me too. I think that teaches valuable lessons. Yeah, or at least you're going to maybe pay the insurance or whatever if it's not too expensive.
Speaker: Eliza Thomas was also 17 years old. She attended the same high school as Jennifer and she was also a part time employee at the yogurt shop and she just saw that as an easy way to earn a little extra cash. Mm hmm. Who doesn't like that? Right. Especially if you're a teacher. Right. That extra cash flow. Mm hmm.
Speaker: Like Jennifer and Sarah, she was also a member of the FFA. And while her interests were not in sports, as Jennifer and Sarah's had been, Eliza was actually heavily involved with other clubs and extracurricular programs that her school offered. She actually, and I think this is really cool, especially like, I know this is probably a little sexist, but like, especially cause she was a girl. She was big time involved in their welding program and their agriculture program.
Speaker: That is good. And listen, I know we'll post these pictures. And this is going to sound judgmental to say as well. But Eliza, she looks like a beauty queen. Like she doesn't seem to me, you know, like she's in their welding. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Amy was the youngest victim at just 13 years of age. She attended the local middle school. Um, because her middle school did not have an FFA program, she was actually allowed to participate in the FFA program at the high school. So even though she's at the middle school, that's how she meets the other three girls is through FFA. And through that program, she quickly became friends with 15 year old Sarah. Okay. And the girls' day had just
Speaker: been a normal day for them. They had offer gone to school. They had offer conveyed plans to their families about what they had planned to do when the yogurt shop closed. I read in an article called Austin yogurt shop murders and unsolved tragedy that was published in 2022 that Amy had gone to the mall with Sarah after school.
Speaker: Jennifer had hung out with her boyfriend. So, you know, just normal team things. And the plan for that night was for all of them to come back to the yogurt shop, which was called, I can't believe it's yogurt. Oh, I remember those. Yeah, those were huge in the 90s. And they were all going to have a sleepover at Jennifer and Sarah's house. Okay. So they've, again, typical teenage night.
Speaker: Yeah, you're going to work your part -time job or you're going to hang out the mall and then you're going to sleep over. According to police reports, the last customers were saying leaving, I can't believe it's yogurt. And it's really hard for me to say that instead of I can't believe it's not yogurt. No, because I can't believe it's not butter. Yeah. Yeah. But the last customers were saying leaving around 10 42 PM and the store was set to close at 11. Okay. So they're cutting it close.
Speaker: Yeah, but they get their stuff to go like they were okay. They're not sitting down to eat. Okay. But they did report that two unidentified men remained in the shop after they walked out. And they said that the men were kind of off to themselves, just sipping on sodas, not eating any froyo. Hmm. Hmm.
Speaker: I had 11 on the dot. The girls flipped the open sign to closed and then they hit the no sell button just three minutes later. So they closed down the register. Okay. That's what I was going to ask. Yeah. If that means like you're about to balance the drawer or whatever.
Speaker: the first investigator on the scene was john jones and he was interviewed by cbs in an article called the yogurt shop murders family investigators remain haunted by unsolved case again shorten your titles people but it's in that interview that we learn so many details about what happened so initially he got a call to respond to a fire that was happening at the yogurt shop and this was not
Speaker: super long after closing.
Speaker: And you can really tell in this interview how passionately he feels about Finding justice for these four families. Mm -hmm. It's just really gut -wrenching some of the things that he talks about And in that interview he relived those first few moments of the investigation in some pretty gripping detail and so I'm gonna read from this article the like dispatch conversation that he had when he initially
Speaker: heard about this fire. Okay. So he says, what do y 'all got out there? I'm in route airport 35. And dispatch says, we've got a fire. He responds back, okay, I'm copying the fire part. But you cut out that first part though. And dispatch says, apparently a robbery and a homicide. There's a three fatalities. He says that's attempt for we're in route and then you hear him click on the sirens.
Speaker: He went on to say in that interview that he was about halfway to the yogurt shop when he got another call on the radio from dispatch and he says, what's the place of business? He's asking like, where am I going? And the dispatch says, I can't believe it's yogurt. And then they tell him we found a fourth body and he says, okay.
Speaker: So, you know, initially, I think a fire would be scary enough to respond to and then to know that you're going there to deal with homicides. And again, this wasn't very long after the shop closed at 11. So is this this John Jones, he's a police investigator. So fire department arrived first. Now he is getting calls of what else they found. Yeah.
Speaker: Gotcha he said in that article quote the fire department had just knocked down the fire So they had just put out the fire when he arrived He said there was still a lot of water a lot of smoke still it was all muted grays black There was no color in there with the exception of the girls And Jones didn't just find four dead girls. He found four charred girls So whoever set this fire clearly did so with intention That they're gonna destroy all evidence because it was a hot fire
Speaker: Well, and you can clearly know that these girls would have tried to get out had they been, you know, capable. Right. I don't think they suspected anything because, and I want to talk about it later on, but the policy of, I can't believe it's yogurt was employees could lock the door. I think it was 10 minutes before closing.
Speaker: You couldn't ask anybody to leave, but you didn't have to let anybody in. That way you could go ahead and start like, you know, your cleanup, cleaning up, drawers, all that. So they lock the door behind the people that get their Sundays to go. And then they start cleaning up with these two men still there and with intentions that they're going to
Speaker: you know, open the door to let them out when they're finished. And some people will hypothesize, which we'll talk later on, that maybe they were taken by surprise. But I do agree with you. I think that they would have ran if they could, but the four were gagged. Some of them were tied up with pieces of their own clothing and all of them were shot in the head. Wow. Yeah. And to add more insult to injury,
Speaker: investigators were actually able to determine that one of the victims had been sexually assaulted. Oh my gosh.
Speaker: And there are some details that we know about the scene and how the girls were found. This is reported by True Crime Society. Each had been shot in the head execution style with a .22 caliber bullet. They later would say that another gun, that there were two weapons. So there is evidence that two different caliber guns were used. So then we have to think where there are two different people there, which makes sense.
Speaker: Right, because people saw the two. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah's hands had been bound behind her back with a pair of panties. She was gagged and she had been raped. Jennifer wasn't bound. And remember Sarah's the 15 year old. Jennifer wasn't bound, but her hands were behind her back.
Speaker: Eliza had been gagged and her hands were tied behind her back and all three of them had been severely charred and they had been shot in the head. And so initially, remember the report comes in that there's only three victims. And that's because those three were found together. Amy's body was found in a separate part of the shop and we really haven't been able to determine why. So it
Speaker: Like she could have maybe gotten away and tried to run and then, or something. We don't know. Yeah. Something along those lines. And I do think it would be hard even with two men to contain four girls and not have one, you know, break and try to run, you know? And I know you're going to get into theories later, but part of me wonders if they had attacked Jennifer first only because she wasn't bound or like they did something like they,
Speaker: I don't know if they made her try to tie up. I don't know, but it seems odd to me that she's not bound. Yeah. Like she would have to be, like you said, either the first or she played some type of role in like them forcing her to do something. So Amy is separate from the other three and she wasn't charred like they were, but she had received second and very early third degree burns on about 30 % of her body.
Speaker: Hmm. And she was found with a sock like cloth and that's what investigators use to describe it around her neck. So I don't know if they maybe choked her, but she had been shot as well as the others, but the bullet had missed her brain. So she had actually been shot twice. So they shot her once and it missed her brain. They shot her a second time that caused severe brain damage and that bullet exited through her lateral cheek and jawline.
Speaker: But neither one of those shots were fatal. Oh my gosh. So she's, she's dying of like smoke inhalation or something like that. Unless they strangled her with that saw. Oh, oh yeah. I forgot about that around her neck. Where they said that that happened. What the cause of death.
Speaker: And like I said, they did believe that the yogurt shop was set on fire to destroy any potential evidence. So did they rob the place or was the motivation just violence and sexual assault of the one of Sarah? Well, when they start questioning people, they say the intent was to rob and it was like a robbery gone wrong.
Speaker: but I never read anywhere in the research that I did, and there was a lot of research available on this, that they said there was an actual robbery that took place. So I don't know if they actually took any of the money from the cash register or not. So it was talked about as a motivation, but no article said, yeah, this specific amount was taken from the cash register. So there was,
Speaker: Evidence later on that money was stolen and that it was a robbery but first police were a little hesitant to Make any type of comment on if the register had been tempered with or if any money had been taken Okay, but later on they would say that a robbery did take place But I don't think they took a lot of money just like a couple hundred dollars. Hmm So senseless honestly, right and I don't get the sense from these girls that they would necessarily
Speaker: have been people to fight back. I mean, if I'm being robbed, and especially if they have guns, I'm going to say, here's all the money. Because I value my life more than money that, I mean, it's not your money. And I know that sounds horrible to say, but I mean, this is your life. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree with you. And I think like, you know, my sister -in -law works at a bank now and my father -in -law has had that conversation with her, you know, like this is not, would not be more than your life. So if somebody came in and demanded money, just do what you have to do to save your life. That money isn't more important than you.
Speaker: I will say every bank where I worked, because I worked at a bank during high school and then during college and part of grad school and any bank where I've ever worked, they've always said, if there's a robbery, do not fight back, give them the money. Like they've never said, you know, try to do this first or try, no, they, because I think they recognize that exactly.
Speaker: Yeah. And you know, from the beginning, and now that I know the research, you don't know this, but this kind of sits, will sit differently with you, I think at the end. But from the beginning, investigators believed that the crime was committed by a seasoned criminal. So they don't think that an inexperienced person would just come in and kill these girls in this manner and then set the place on fire. They thought from the beginning,
Speaker: Whoever did this, or whatever pair did this, had a pretty big knowledge base to be able to kill the girls in this manner and then destroy so much evidence with fire. Well, and obviously they had to have some sort of an accelerant or something with them to start the fire. To get it to burn so quick, so fast.
Speaker: News of the girl's death did spread quickly through Austin and Allison, this was a tragedy that the town, even to this day, is still trying to kind of wrap their heads around and it's been, you know, over 30 years at this point. Right. Wow. And they were just really
Speaker: turned upside down almost at the news that these four young girls have been killed at the yogurt shop. It was just something people couldn't really fathom or believe, you know? And investigators did a good job. They looked at a lot of different people from family members to people who frequented the yogurt shop to town drifters, but they really didn't find a whole lot. I did read at one point they had like over 300 suspects.
Speaker: Wow. That's a huge suspect pool. Yeah. Yeah. And they did dwindle that down quite a bit. But in the beginning, they were looking at anybody that they could possibly think about.
Speaker: And the grief that someone caused that day is just really hard for me to fathom. You know, we typically only talk about one family that's destroyed by senseless act, but today we're talking about four. And one thing that really stuck with me is, you know, Jennifer's parents, Jennifer and Sarah's parents lost both of their children on the same day. Yeah.
Speaker: But Amy's family, you know, she had a sibling. I'm pretty positive. I remember reading that. And so did Eliza. And so their parents at least had, you know, a part of them to hold on to in this grief process. Whereas Jennifer and Sarah's family had nothing. Yeah. Oh gosh, that's awful.
Speaker: And their mother Barbara told CBS, quote, my life was focused around them from here to eternity. Somebody took eternity away from me. End quote. Oh my gosh, that's gut wrenching. I know.
Speaker: You know, they lost so much. I read in that article with the interview with investigator Jones, like one of the daddies, I don't remember which one, but he was like, you know, I lost my first dance with her. I lost her wedding dance with her. Like, you know, you just think about all the big things that you lose when someone dies and not always about those smaller details like that. And I thought that was really sad. Oh, that is sad.
Speaker: And for some, the loss was just really too much to bear. Sonora Thomas was the 13 year old sister and only sibling, I believe, of Eliza who was murdered that day. And she talked to CBS quite a bit about how her family
Speaker: dealt or really didn't deal with the death of Eliza. She said, quote, I remember the shock. I remember fantasizing for days that my sister had somehow escaped and ran away and she was going to come back. And so that's what I was kind of holding on to. End quote. Like I could see, you know,
Speaker: you as a 13 year old holding on to that hope, you know, oh, they're wrong. She got away or whatever. This can't be real. Yeah. And she went on to say that her parents really struggled with losing her sister. She said they never talked about Eliza after she died, not a single time that she can remember.
Speaker: And she said in that interview that she did the best she could to pick up the pieces of her sister's life for herself and for her family. She said, you know, Eliza was an animal lover, which we talked about. She had a pig that she had planned on entering into a livestock show. Cause you know, that's a big part of FFA. And just a few months after.
Speaker: her murder, she actually took over those duties and showed that pig at the livestock show for her sister. So she's just trying to carry on her sister's legacy. But that's so hard to be, I understand the parents felt such a debilitating level of grief. And yet at the same time, knowing how unhealthy that was that they just kept it all in instead of talking about it.
Speaker: Gosh, it's sad. You know, in a lot of the cases that we've talked about, I think a lot of families do that. And then, you know, sometimes that results in divorce, that results in, you know, trauma with your other kids. I know it's hard. Well, I've never been in that situation, but I know it would be hard to talk about that. But it is healthy for you to talk. And I think that's why it's so important that we
Speaker: kind of do away with the stigmas of seeking therapy or counseling when you need it because if you can't talk to your loved ones, you should talk to a therapist because you need to get those emotions out. Agreed.
Speaker: I thought it was extremely telling of the kind of person Jones was, by the way, he has treated the family. So from the beginning, he kept them as up to date as he could, telling them all the information that he could when he could. So he's keeping them as up to date on information as possible. He promised them, quote, the next time they saw me in that green and white shirt, that was a signal to them that, you know, we know who did it. So he wore the day that he told the families,
Speaker: that their loved ones have been killed, this green and white shirt, and he promised them, like, the next time you see me in this shirt, I'm gonna have it on because I'm gonna be able to tell you. Yeah, the case is solved. But they have never seen him in that green and white shirt. So in the beginning, hundreds of pieces of evidence I read were collected from the scene of the crime, and that attention to detail actually paid off big for investigators. They were able to locate a partial male DNA symbol from a vaginal swab.
Speaker: So, you know, they're thinking with the right test, with a little luck, we can find this killer. But, you know, like I said, at one point they had a list of, you know, 300 persons of interest. So they had a lot of people to work through, but through interviews and just different processes of elimination, that list did grow shorter.
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Speaker: Early on in the investigation, police did what they, or they found what they thought was a major break in the case. They actually made an arrest of a teenager named Maurice Pierce, who was arrested just eight days after the murders. He was arrested at the mall where the two girls had visited and he was arrested because he was carrying a 22 caliber gun.
Speaker: Which was the same type of gun that was used in the murders. But if you remember, investigators were like, this is a seasoned murderer. This is a seasoned criminal. And I don't think this kid, he was a teen at the time, would be considered seasoned, but I digress. And I mean, if really the only thing you have linking, okay, obviously you shouldn't be carrying a .22 caliber gun in the mall, but a .22 is fairly common. Common. So I mean,
Speaker: If that's why they're arresting him because he's male and he has a 22 caliber, then I don't feel like that's a whole lot. Well, there's a lot in this case that you're like, that's not really a lot, but okay.
Speaker: When he was taken into custody, he told Jones, so that same investigator, that there were three boys that were involved in the murder at the yogurt shop. So he's like, Oh yeah, I know about that. And there were three guys that were involved in that. Oh, so he's saying he wasn't there, but he knows who was.
Speaker: Well, I think he's saying I was there, I wasn't involved, but I know who did this. Well, now let me ask you this. I know that our witnesses or whoever who came in to get the ice cream near closing time only saw two. Could a third have like been in the bathroom or something? Well, they think and later on as well that
Speaker: One was in a getaway car. One was a lookout and two committed the murders. Oh, so four involved is their thought kind of later on. Okay. So who did he name?
Speaker: So he names Forrest, which every time I hear that name, I think of Forrest Gump, Wells Born, Michael Scott and Robert Springsteen. So he's like, yeah, I know who it was. It's these three guys. And they did look into his gun, but they were not able to definitively match it with what was used to kill the girls. Which you would think they could, especially if, I mean, ballistics, you would think. Cause they had a bullet, yeah.
Speaker: But they didn't. So he says, you know, I was driving the getaway car. I'll just go ahead and tell you. Oh, but these three guys, these three did the murders. And that's that's the story he tells Jones. So he does say he was in a involved. Oh, yeah, there are a lot of
Speaker: And I don't know that you'd really well, yeah, I guess this is a confession, but there are a lot of Confessions that take place. So he's like, you know, I I was driving the getaway car I didn't get out of the car. These three guys did everything are who you need to talk to. Yeah and They're actually like, okay, so You know, we're gonna give you a chance to kind of call your friends and let them know that
Speaker: Mm -hmm that we they're kind of on our radar, right? Mm -hmm and it's at that point that his story just begins to fall apart because according to Jones in that same CBS article, he actually calls Forest first, okay, of course he calls on a you know, tapped line though. He probably right not know that right and during their conversation police
Speaker: are you know they're listening to this exchange between forest and pierce and they're able to quickly determine that forest wells burn or born has no idea whatsoever
Speaker: about what this guy's talking about as far as like what happened that night because Pierce is kind of like, yeah, you remember when we went to the yogurt shop and I stayed in the car and he's like, what are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. And so his story just kind of starts to fall apart. And when they were brought in for questioning that police are like, yeah, there's such a lack of evidence here.
Speaker: These guys probably weren't really involved. And Pierce was released from custody because of that lack of evidence. So are they thinking that Pierce had some sort of, I don't know, delusions or something, and he's just making all this up for
Speaker: I think at this point they think he's just scared. Like you're young, you're a teen, you're in the police station. I think they're thinking he's just scared and he's trying to make up the story to implicate others there and him not being involved.
Speaker: It wasn't until several years later in October of 1999. So remember this takes place in 1991. So that's like eight years after the yogurt shop murders that Austin police announced, you know what? Those four guys that we've already talked to, you know, they really should be looked at as serious suspects. Eight years later. Yeah. Eight years later. So they're no longer boys. They're men at this point, you know,
Speaker: And this came about because there was a new investigative team and they were like, yeah, we need to probably just re -question these guys. Let's get them in here, make sure that they really weren't involved since they were questioned in the beginning, you know? Now, let me ask you this. So you mentioned that Pierce had called Welburn, right?
Speaker: Did they even question Scott and Springsteen initially before they decided that, oh, Pierce is just making this up. Well, let's just dismiss everything. Yeah. They talked to all four of them and they're like, yeah, these other three aren't, they have no idea what this guy's talking about. Like, okay. We're just letting them all go. But now they're saying maybe we were wrong.
Speaker: Right. And two of them, Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott, in this reinvestigation, confess to the yogurt shop murders. Oh. And in this confession, they implicate both Pierce and Wellborn in the process. So they're like, yep, all four of us were involved. Oh, wow. And all four men are arrested.
Speaker: Oh gosh. OK. So police actually kept no record of the conversations that took place when the
Speaker: men that were boys were initially interviewed by police. Why? So we don't know. I don't know. I don't know if it was because they were so young. I don't know if it's because they quickly determined the other three just weren't involved. And so they just like, you know, but still there should be records.
Speaker: Yeah, I read in that, I'm pretty positive it was that CBS article that there wasn't like substantial records kept. So it was impossible to know whether the detectives had maybe gave more information to the police, you know what I'm saying? Like kind of supplied them with information. Leading questions. Yeah.
Speaker: Like if they said, why was Amy not found with the other girls? I mean, they could ask it like that and then they're leading because they're giving information that the average person wouldn't have known.
Speaker: Yeah, and we have no way of knowing if that happened. And we also have no way of knowing like if the stories they told back in the day are the same stories that they're telling now. Gotcha. Did Pierce's story change? We don't really know that for sure. Because we don't have the records, yeah.
Speaker: Right. Despite the fact that there was no physical evidence, we do have that DNA, but I'm pretty positive at this point it had not been tested. So despite the fact there was no physical evidence connecting these four men to the crime, police arrested Michael and Robert based on those confessions that they obtained and Pierce and Wellborn were also arrested.
Speaker: Lawyers would later say that the confessions from Scott and Springsteen were coerced confessions and they said that the police and like everything I read that the police were like you all should be lucky you're so lucky you slipped through our fingers and you were able to stay free for as long as you did you owe us this you owe us this confession oh because we let you slip through the cracks like that's the kind of stuff that they said investigators were saying to
Speaker: these four men. But still, I mean, I wouldn't think that making those sorts of comments would make adult men be like, okay, you're right. I did it.
Speaker: Well, I'm going to give you just a little bit of a preview of the interrogation and then okay. Well, I'll go just go ahead and say so Springsteen's investigation or interrogation sorry was like 20 hours long and that's a long time for days. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And here's just a bit of the interview that officers did with Michael Scott. And I'm going to edit out the language because there's a lot of language. OK. OK. So the officer says, come on, Michael. You're doing good. Tell us. Let's do this today. Let's do it. And Michael says, oh, I remember seeing girls. I remember one girl screaming terrified.
Speaker: And Michael Scott told investigators that he and the others had just intended a simple robbery. He said they had actually kind of staked out the overshop earlier that day. And then after dark, they came in and they were armed with those two guns. Okay.
Speaker: He goes on to say Michael Scott does in the interrogation. I heard the gun go off. I pulled the trigger once. I heard another gun go off. So investigators claimed that Springsteen would later corroborate what Michael Scott said in this portion of the interview.
Speaker: And he's basically saying one shot each from two different guns. But here's the thing. I mean, we know there's two different guns, but we also know four girls have been shot. So the gun had to have fired more than once. Unless, you know, I'm sure people black out at some point and when they're committing heinous crimes. Maybe, yeah.
Speaker: But the interrogating officer goes on to say, you effing know if you effing raped her, just say it. And this is in the interrogation with Robert at this point. And Robert says, I stuck my D in her P and I raped her. And then he said that he shot one girl and raped her. So he confesses to one of the murders. And we know that that would have been Sarah because that was the victim that was raped.
Speaker: Like I said, Springsteen's interrogation lasted 20 hours and it spanned over four days. At this point in the episode, I don't think any of us have really formed concrete opinions about these four men. I'm still up in the air if I'm hearing this for the first time.
Speaker: but one thing i do know if i'm playing devil's advocate is that at this point they're probably very tired especially robert if he's been questioned for 20 hours yeah he's tired of questions he's tired from a lack of sleep he just
Speaker: wants all of this to end. And we've talked about it before, but a lot of times people will confess just out of sheer exhaustion, like needing a break from the questions and just wanting it to be over. Or they'll say something like, if you just confess, then this will all be over and you can go home.
Speaker: You know, they'll, they'll say things like that. And so people will, or they'll make them question, you know, if you're that tired. And then they'll say, you, you said, you know, this and this. And then you're thinking, did, did I, did I say that? Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: And like I hinted at earlier, false confessions in this case were nothing new. Jones told CBS that there were six written false confessions that he obtained while he was over the case. So like, yeah, this isn't anything like really new for this case. That's wild.
Speaker: As for Wellborn, police believed, like I said, he was the lookout at the scene of the crime. And this was a title that he denied in prison and still denies to this day. In the CBS article, Erin Moriarty spoke with Wellborn when he was in jail back in 1999, just shortly after his arrest. And this is just a portion of their conversation. So she says, were you there that night? And he said, no. She goes,
Speaker: Were you there as a lookout? He replied, no, I'm innocent. You had nothing to do with this, she asked. And he said, nothing at all. Huh. And Allison, the case against most of these men seemed to fall apart as quickly as it was put into place. Well -born's charges were dismissed when two grand juries failed to indict him.
Speaker: So there's not enough evidence that these juries are even saying like, okay, he's legitimately part of this. And the charges against Pierce were also dropped again, due to lack of evidence, but the confessions of Scott and Springsteen still stood strong in 2001, nearly 10 years after the murder of Eliza, Amy, Sarah, and Jennifer, the yogurt shop murder trials began. Gosh, that seems like a long time.
Speaker: Mm -hmm So, you know, we have both defendants Springsteen and Scott facing the death penalty. Okay, so we're adults now Mm -hmm. Yep, and I think they were probably old enough at the time to be tried as adults even if it had taken place Mm -hmm, you know 10 years prior. Mm -hmm But again, remember we're going into this trial and the only thing we have is
Speaker: are confessions. We have nothing else that ties the two to the scene of the crime. Just these confessions. Like I said, even with their confessions, the details of the confession, I shot once, I pulled the trigger once, and then somebody else shot once, doesn't even match the crime.
Speaker: Right. So even though we have all of these things that kind of make us scratch our heads, the trial did move forward for both. And it was decided that the two needed to be tried separately to receive fair trials. And so they were. And Springsteen's trial was first. And it was a gruesome battle in court. There were so many documents about this that this episode could have been like a three parter. So I shortened all of this down.
Speaker: But the two men, since they were friends, refused to testify against each other. So they would not, you know, throw one under the bus. Okay. They didn't want to do that. But prosecutors used their confessions against one another and they read gruesome portions allowed to the jury.
Speaker: And the crazy thing was they, the lawyers were not permitted. So like Springsteen's lawyer was not permitted to question Scott about his portion of the confession. And so they just played it. Yeah. And that's it. And that's it. Hmm.
Speaker: And Springsteen's trial lasted three weeks, Allison. Wow. The jury deliberated for 13 hours before reaching a verdict. That tells me it wasn't a clear decision. Yup. Yup. And they ended up finding him guilty of capital murder and he was condemned to death row. Hmm. Just based on a confession.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's when I was talking about this to Anthony, I was like, just a confession that they claimed was coerced, were putting him on death row. And like, you know, again, I've never been in this type of situation. So I don't know how I would feel as one of the victim's family members. I'm sure there's relief, right? Because, you know, you're finally getting justice for your loved one. Right, right.
Speaker: But at the same time, like, you know, people from the outside, you're like, what we just said really from just the confession. Wow. In 2002, it was Michael Scott's turn to go on trial. And as you may have predicted, he too was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison.
Speaker: But the case didn't end there. CBS stated, quote, 15 years after the murders came a shocking turn of events. Both Scott and Springsteen's convictions were overturned on constitutional grounds. The Sixth Amendment gives defendants the right to confront accusers. And remember, in Scott and Springsteen's trial, their confessions were used against one another, but they weren't allowed to question each other in court, end quote. Oh.
Speaker: So basically they're saying they were convicted not only because of their confessions that they said were coerced, but because there was an additional confession by each, you know, one another that was played in court. But then like you said, they weren't allowed to question it or any of the details or anything like that. Right. So they're put behind bars for a coerced confession and then they were not allowed to defend themselves against those confessions in front of a jury.
Speaker: But with the relief that Scott and Springfield felt, just like I said, we now have three grieving families left shattered once again. Right. And I think it would be unimaginably hard for you to finally thank your sister, your daughter, your best friend, finally received justice to have that conviction overturned on the idea that a defendant's rights had been violated. Yeah.
Speaker: I get how that would be hard. I can't imagine that anger. Yeah. Because if anyone's rights were violated, it was your sister, your daughters, your friends. By losing their life. Yeah. Right. Not these men that you think killed them. Well, and that's what I was going to say too, is if you do believe that they're guilty, then for them to walk free, that would be hard.
Speaker: Yeah, because they get to live a life when someone innocent, you know, you don't get that prom. You don't get that father -daughter dance. You don't get any of those things. But even though these convictions were overturned, Scott and Springsteen were actually not released from. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: There was a new district attorney at the time, and she was determined to retry them. And so if you remember, there was that DNA evidence that was obtained through the vaginal swabs. And so the new DA wanted that DNA tested against Scott and Springsteen before she released them. Oh, smart. Yeah. I thought so too, because especially if it matches and they know it's going to match, I would flee. Oh, yeah. I would run away.
Speaker: The DNA was used or tested using YSTR. And I don't know if you maybe say why store not sure. Yeah. Which just targets.
Speaker: the STR regions of the male Y chromosome as it passes through like a perennial lineage, so from like father to son. And by targeting that Y chromosome, a YSTR profile can be unmasked in the presence of female DNA, because remember they have that DNA profile, but it's going to have Sarah's DNA and... Right, right.
Speaker: the murderer's DNA. And when they ran those tests, the DNA did not match either Scott or Springsteen. And in 2009, charges against both were dropped and the two men were free. But I met a lot of people who do believe that they were responsible say, well, there were two other people
Speaker: You know, I think it was actually tested against all four of them correctly and it didn't match any of them I think So it's got to be Somebody else out there, right? So even if it doesn't match these people it matches somebody. Mm -hmm. So who's a match, right? and my first inclination is to go to these men spotted at the yogurt shop and
Speaker: Now, I would be interested in, and I just thought of this as we're talking about this, seeing what these four men looked like in 1991. Could they pass as men, or did they look like boys?
Speaker: Because they're described as men. Oh, interesting, yeah. And I think you would, like, I know we would at least be like, yeah, I saw two, two boys there. Right, or two teenagers. Yeah. Or even if they looked like, even if they looked like they were in their 20s, I feel like I would say young men. Young men. And not just men.
Speaker: Cause when I say, Hey, I saw two men sitting in those booths, I picture like, you know, 50 year old men, 40 year old men. I do too. Yeah. Yeah. I think if it was, you know, in their twenties, I would say young men. So that kind of has me. Cause I know if we're saying it's spring scene and Scott, then that would be two men spotted in that yogurt shop at closing time. It could be them, but if they looked young, then I don't think people would use men to describe them. I agree.
Speaker: And according to CBS, those two men were described as wearing fatigued colored jackets and they looked to be very slouched over, almost whispering to one another in like a very close conversation in the booth. And I'm sure plotting whatever, you know, the gruesome thing they were getting ready to do. Did they ever check to see if these four guys had fatigued colored jackets even? It's a good question. I don't remember reading that in my research though.
Speaker: There was an effort though, a significant one put into finding these men, but I don't think police have really ever gotten any solid leads. There was a very interesting scenario given in the New York Post that I feel could be very likely if we're to believe it's the two men, the two unknown men. So this theory involves those two mystery men who entered the coffee shop
Speaker: just prior to closing and specific pieces of evidence that were taken from the crime scene, which was an open, an unopened can of Coke, a cup that at one point had ice in it. So again, would have DNA if someone was drinking from that. Yeah. A booth at
Speaker: the yogurt shop that had an empty napkin holder and then those testimony of the two late night customers. I also wonder, did police ever ask these people to help make composite drawings of these men? That's a great question too. Because I think that would be a really good place to start. With this theory, what the heck does a booth with an empty napkin holder have to do with anything?
Speaker: Yeah, I'm not sure. Because when I read this article, that was my initial question. And they made it sound like it was super important, but it really just I didn't think that it was. Did I clarify why? I already have the article. Yeah. Nope. Unless there's evidence or something there that maybe fingerprints or something. Yeah, whoever committed the crime knows what was there. Oh, yeah. What was there?
Speaker: Author Beverly Lowry, she wrote,
Speaker: Like when I looked her up, it literally said encyclopedia on killing. Like I'm assuming it's on like killings, you know? Like murders. She's wrote other stuff too. But she said in this article, quote, in this version of what happened, once the customers had taken their yogurt sundaes and gone home, Jennifer locked the front door, flipped over the open sign and continued with her cleaning routine. The two men were still sitting there. The girls were chatting. They would unlock the front door when the last two customers were ready to leave.
Speaker: She goes on to say, quote, what's possible, and again, this is speculation, is that one of the guys ordered a Coke while Eliza was at the register. She had to bend down to get the Coke in the refrigerator beneath the counter. And when she stood up, perhaps one of the guys was there with a gun.
Speaker: And according to that post article, she said, Beverly, that the protocol at the shop would allow employees to lock the front door 10 minutes prior to closing, but they wouldn't kick anybody out of the store. So they would let you finish your meal. They just didn't want anybody else, like we said, coming in. And so she's saying, you know, these men took advantage of that. They would have had to have known that.
Speaker: right they wouldn't be kicked out that they could stay until everybody else left and so they order the coke and that's why it's left unopened and then they're like up they use the gun when they get up when she comes back up with the coke can or the coke can was for another person who was in the bathroom who hadn't come out yet
Speaker: Yeah, and they do speculate that they exited out of the back door. And so they think somebody propped the door open. And that maybe could have been like a third or fourth person, honestly. Yeah, because we don't really know for sure what the other guys were doing if we're going back to the four.
Speaker: Police did run that DNA through several databases, but because the strand was just like that partial DNA and not a full DNA profile, investigators said, you know, it could match lots of different people. It's not just going to ping, you know, one specific person. But interestingly, none of the four.
Speaker: Right, which that was also what I thought when I was researching, because I think I read that it could potentially match like thousands of people, but it didn't match those four. So it's similar, I guess, to the like West Memphis three case that we talked about with the DNA on the shoestring and how people were trying to say that that meant that one particular person was guilty, but it could be.
Speaker: You know this large group of people. Mm -hmm. Yeah There's another scarcely talked about theory about a serial killer because at the time of these killings there was a known serial killer Kenneth Allen McDuff three names. Mm -hmm that was wreaking havoc on this area and he had a history of
Speaker: multiple murders, including teenagers, and so people sometimes wonder if he could have been responsible for the death of Jennifer, Sarah, Amy, and Eliza. And according to the Crime Museum, they had this to say about Kenneth, quote, Kenneth McDuff was an American serial killer suspected of at least 14 murders, so a lot.
Speaker: and served time on death row from 1968 to 1972 and then again in the 90s. Born on March 1, 1946, he was from Central Texas and had three siblings. Macduff's mother, Addie Macduff, was well known around town as a pistol pack and mama because of her habit of carrying a firearm in her violent tendencies.
Speaker: Macduff was known to shoot his 22 rifle at living creatures and was often getting into fights with boys older than he was. These tendencies he was well known for by the sheriff of his of his hometown. But if this dude is responsible this would have been at the end of his career. So he's like old in 1990s if he was born in 1946.
Speaker: Plus, I'm curious if any of his deaths were of multiple people at the same time. At the same time. Because I do think that one person subduing four would be extremely difficult. And I think it would be, we've talked about serial killers and the patterns that they form over time. I think that would be a really big jump to go from single
Speaker: murders too, multiple murders, all in one thing, you know? Right, right. But I just keep going back to these two mystery men. Yeah, I do too. I don't know. I understand that all we really have are the confessions of the two who were later released.
Speaker: I wonder if there's more to it than confessions. And the only reason I say that is just because you had law enforcement who initially had said, nope, it's not them. But then they come back eight years later and say, wait a minute. There's something here that makes me feel like it's them. And that happened before the confessions because the confessions happen after they decide, you know what, we need to look into them.
Speaker: more.
Speaker: Yeah, and I don't know if it was just we want to re -interview everybody that they interviewed in the beginning stages, or if it was just they singled out these four. Because I think, like you said, that would make a difference. And I think my point is, I don't necessarily know if it were these four. But that at least tells me that police believe enough in this idea that it was more than one person.
Speaker: And it also, this whole robbery gone wrong. I don't know if I necessarily believe that. If they did take out money, okay, it could have been the intention initially was a robbery. But, and I get that you would bring a gun maybe to coerce somebody to give you money.
Speaker: I don't know if they necessarily planned on, say, the sexual assault or different things like that, but I also don't know how they could have started a fire that would burn this quickly. Burned bodies, that's significant heat. Without planning, I mean, obviously it seems to me like they planned on arson.
Speaker: And I don't think the four original boys, they said they decided on it that day. I don't think that would, if it was just a robbery, yes, then maybe you did just stake it out that morning. But I don't think that the intentions were ever just robbery in this case. One, why would you rob a yogurt shop? You know you are not gonna get a lot of money.
Speaker: I mean, they got like $300. If you're going to rob something, you're going to rob something that's going to get you more than $300. If you're going to chance a federal fence. I think the, I don't know if the four girls were maybe like stalked and followed and the intentions were specifically for them. I don't know. I just don't know that any of the motives given really makes sense for the crimes that happened.
Speaker: I agree. The yogurt shop murders were a tragedy that shook the city of Austin to its core. The horrific nature of the crime combined with the age of the victims left a lasting impact on the community. For all these years, the case still remains unsolved, leaving the families of the victims and the people of Austin in a state of uncertainty and even fear.
Speaker: The yogurt shop murders serve as a stark reminder of the importance of due process and the impact that a wrongful conviction can have on innocent individuals. As we continue to grapple with the legacy of this tragic event, we must also remain vigilant in our efforts to ensure that justice is truly served in every case. The families of the victims, the community of Austin, and those impacted by this senseless act of violence deserve nothing less. If you have information on the yogurt shop murders, please call 512
Speaker: 472 tips
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