Transcript
Speaker: Do you feel drawn to learn more about witchcraft and the occult but feel lost on where to start? then welcome to Get In Loser, We're Doing Witchcraft, a podcast all about what it means to be a witch and where to get started on your journey.
Speaker: Join us as we navigate through various
Speaker: Mike and I watched... this movie last night. Mm -hmm. Wahee. on while i was trying to like you know read do laundry take care of other things, you know, multitask. we do as women. Yeah. and it was This French -Canadian movie called Red Rooms, have you heard of it?
Speaker: No. Such a weird movie. And I thought it was. a horror movie it's like um kind of like a courtroom thriller type of situation, but I thought it was...
Speaker: so good because basically it's like this man who's on trial for like these heinous murders of these three young girls okay and Like. in the movie they talk about these terrible things that he did and they allude to it and they have like they show videos in court or whatever but like you don't actually see anything happen but it's just like you know and you can hear that things are happening it's crazy but the whole like
Speaker: The main character and stuff isn't even anybody to do with the murders or the murderer. It is somebody who is fascinated. with these crimes and is like,
Speaker: going to as like a... I don't know, a true crime lover or just like obsessed with true crime or like. like some weird like attachment or attraction to the murder is going to the courtroom every day.
Speaker: to Go. See the trial. Yeah. It is so crazy because it reminds me of like this. feels like something that would happen. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: that Well, I was going to say, you see so many people so attached to it. Like right now, you know, the trial with Lindsay Clancy, everybody is like. debating and discussing and Putting out their own theories and beliefs of what actually happened. So it would make sense to have a movie like that. like That is definitely something that I could see being so realistic and actually happening.
Speaker: Yeah. and so I think you should watch it. if if it comes from I don't know where we stream it, but it's on a streaming service somewhere. Awesome. yeah let me know when it's on But yeah. And obviously, too, we're recording this in August, guys. Yeah.
Speaker: By this point, we will have already known what the... outcome of the lindsey clancy trial is but yeah which is such an awful it's like doesn'st matter show what there is it is it's still gut -wrenching Yeah. Yeah, it's awful. And hopefully.
Speaker: If nothing else, hopefully this brings some changes to the way. um medical systems handle postpartum. so That's the only thing we can hope for there.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's like... Even if... We're going to like, not even cause I think we both. have similar viewpoints on what we think happened, but we're not going to. But not even if...
Speaker: It is a situation of... We think that Lindsay did these terrible things. to her children and to herself, the fact that she tried to get help for months. It was documented for months. And even as a nurse, she did all of the things that. you're told to do if you need help.
Speaker: it the system still failed her. It's like. This is somebody who knows the medical system and still couldn't get the help that she needed. Yeah. for anybody else. Yeah, it's...
Speaker: It's honestly really sad to see like. Everything that's being talked about, like how many. of her doctors and nurses and mental health providers failed her, how much her husband.
Speaker: Failed her. yeah how much her family failed her. mm -hmm So. yeah It doesn't make, you know, what happened. Okay. But it's. It's awful.
Speaker: Yeah. And I hope this too, even with just changes in the medical system, but also I hope this opens up a lot of women's eyes to see that like. when you're married to somebody, if that partner is not actively engaged in raising your children with you, that is a huge red flag. like yeah at No point.
Speaker: And I can say this with 100 % certainty. If I was struggling after just having a baby, would my, and I was struggling to that extent, would my husband? feel comfortable leaving me at home with three variables. children. yeah Wow.
Speaker: he's off gallivanting and doing whatever the fuck with his friends and going yeah and going out of town. if He knew how. I was struggling. Like he knew she was. She wasn't driving because she wasn't sleeping. He knew all these things and still left her at home while she was struggling and not sleeping with three young. young children.
Speaker: I mean, even without having kids. I don't think Anthony would be out gallivanting if I was having some kind of like mental health break. right you know he would be like sorry guys i can't right now Yeah.
Speaker: And the fact that even He... was present Even though i he testified he wasn't there for some of her. Ah. sessions but the therapist is literally like no the husband sat in on multiple therapy sessions yeah that in you heard how much she was struggling and you still left her?
Speaker: Take care. for three, it doesn't matter how many kids, three. One, zero, two. It doesn't matter. you Yeah. in a very vulnerable situation. Because you couldn't give a shit less. You're a terrible person.
Speaker: Terrible husband, terrible father.
Speaker: Anyway. Off our soapbox, we're not talking about... The Lindsay Clancy trial. You're not. That's not what we're here for. Yeah, though we probably could talk about it for...
Speaker: Hours on end. What are we talking about today? Oh my gosh, we this is a spooky, spooky, this is our last spooky episode of the season. Which is just wild.
Speaker: yeah Because for us, we haven't even hit spooky season. No.
Speaker: Ogtober, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I started decorating Did you? We can't find some of our shit, though. It's in the garage somewhere. you know like That's what happens when you only have 10 days to move across. the fucking world you lose somewhere in the garage it's somewhere no idea but it's there somewhere in the garage you just have to find it but I have heard it degrading a little bit and I am so excited for spooky season
Speaker: I need to. The only thing I have been doing spooky season related is I am crocheting a little pumpkin blanket and it is so fucking cute. It is the cutest.
Speaker: Little blanket ever. the pumpkin stitch that she sent me is just little thing. I know. I'm obsessed with it. And they puff out on the blanket. So it's like textured too.
Speaker: I'm obsessed I can't wait for it to be done Because I made it, like, it's massive. So I'm just going to be like. cozy and cuddled under it all winter you for all of the like little instagram pictures and stuff uh It's so precious. me In the foreground. and the It's going to be cute.
Speaker: Perfect. yeah Wow. We are traveling to some spooky destinations, so I'm really excited about this. Yes! So mine, I'm going to kick off with mine. I am talking about Murderstones. And while it's not...
Speaker: I guess you'll you'll just have to listen to it and see because. it's not spooky in the sense that every single one of them are haunted the whole situation behind murder stones is what's spooky to me and so I hope that you guys enjoy learning about...
Speaker: murder stones did you know about murder stones do you know what they are i don't Oh, my God. Well, this will be a treat. I'm so excited. So... a little background and history.
Speaker: Murder stones are sprinkled throughout the UK, and they're sometimes known as murder posts or murder pillars, and they mark the exact location of a killing. often they commemorate the location of a robbery murder situation that occurred along a footpath along the road or in a moor. This practice became popular during the 1800s and was most often seen in the Pennines, the Peak District, and the Moreland Parishes of Yorkshire.
Speaker: This practice wasn't a single standardized tradition within with... an origin date, but it was more so a type of memorial that developed in different places and circumstances.
Speaker: The surviving examples we see now cluster during the 18th and 19th centuries. with many of them dating to around the 1820s. Most stones weren't erected by authorities either. They were often paid for by townsfolk, so landowners, prominent residents, religious figures, local officials, etc. And it was a community's response to a shocking death.
Speaker: The purpose for why they would be erected wasn't identical either. Sometimes they were erected to memorialize the victim, to record the crime for future generations, to warn travelers against violence in the area, to warn would -be murderers of divine judgment, and to warn against greed, alcohol, or other vices.
Speaker: Most murder stones give some facts about the murder, so a name if known. Sometimes the name is only listed as stranger. The date the murder happened and the manner of death, and then followed by a warning.
Speaker: Some murder stones commemorate murderers. where a perpetrator or perpetrators were caught and executed however there are some murder stones that commemorate a murder where someone was suspected and never convicted and there are some murder stones that are attached to unsolved or disputed stories Over time, the weather has rendered a lot of murder stones illegible.
Speaker: And there is a crowdsourced database listed in our show notes where you can find a stone or record a stone if you stumble across one. So looking at some of the most famous murder stones.
Speaker: The first one is the Stone of the of the Unknown Sailor. And this is one of the earliest murder stones from the 1700s. On September 24, 1786, An unidentified sailor was traveling toward Portsmouth when he stopped at the Red Line Inn in Thursley. He encountered three other sailors named James Marshall, Michael Casey, and Edward Lonegan.
Speaker: The men all drank together and the unknown sailor even bought them all drinks. The three men then followed the unknown sailor toward Hindhead and murdered him. They stripped him of his clothes and all of his belongings and were arrested the next day after attempting to sell the unknown sailor's clothes. The three men were executed and their bodies were displayed in chains on a gibbet near the murder site.
Speaker: The murder stone was erected in 1787 by James Stilwell of Cosford House and it names and shames the perpetrators. The stone is listed as a grade two monument. And Charles Dickens referenced the stone in The Life and Adventures of Nicholas Nickleby.
Speaker: The next one is a Margaret Williams murder stone. and Catexton juxtaneeth. and Neithport Talbot Wales. That's a mouthful. I'll get rid of it.
Speaker: Margaret was a 26 year old domestic servant from. Camarth and Cher. who is working in caakston on a farm. She became pregnant and left the farm, and it's not known, though, if she left on her own accord or if she was thrown out.
Speaker: She began lodging with an old man nearer to the center of town, and on July 13, 1822, she was last seen walking into town where she bought a sheep's head.
Speaker: The next morning, her body was discovered in a ditch in a marshland below a church. Her basket with the sheep's head was also found nearby. It was discovered that she was murdered with quote, marks of violence upon her person, her murder stone was erected in 1823 by a local industrialist named George Tennant. The inscription on her murder stone states that although the murderer escaped human detection,
Speaker: God marked him and that the cry of blood would pursue him in judgment. For a long time, accounts suggested that Margaret's suspected lover and murderer escaped justice, but the Neath Antiquarian Society found a newspaper report from 1825 showing that Llewellyn Richards was actually charged with Margaret's murder, but it was reported that there was not enough evidence to charge him, so he was released.
Speaker: There is also reports that the son of the farmer she was working for was arrested because it was said that he was known to be the father of the baby. and he was immediately suspected of her killing. But by Tuesday of the next week after the murder, it was determined that there wasn't enough evidence and he was released. So was this the same person? Maybe? I don't know. Either way, no one was ever brought to justice for her murder.
Speaker: Lastly, I'm going to talk about William Wood, and he died in 1823. And this was... in the High Peak District of Derbyshire. William was a cattle dealer from I am who was traveling home in July of 1823.
Speaker: He stopped at a public house and reportedly encountered three men dressed as sailors. Later, his body was discovered on the side of the road between Whaley Bridge and Disley.
Speaker: His pockets had been turned out and he had suffered severe head injuries, leading the investigators at the time to believe robbery was the motive. Unfortunately, nobody was ever convicted for the crime.
Speaker: His murder stone was erected in 1874, 51 years after William's murder, and the in the inscription on the murder stone states, Prepare to meet thy God.
Speaker: Interestingly, one local account says that The Williams School was smashed. There was a depression in the ground where his head struck and nothing would grow there. even more when there were attempts to fill the depression, it would come back.
Speaker: So that kind of leads us into the ghost stories surrounding the murder stones. What's interesting to note here is that the murder stones itself doesn't automatically have a ghost legend, but there are several examples where the stone, the murder site, or the surrounding area became associated with supernatural activity.
Speaker: Going back to our girl Margaret, the Cladoxton Stone has one of the clearest reported haunting traditions. According to paranormal records, two ghostly figures have reportedly been seen around the stone, and it's believed to be Margaret and the man suspected to have killed her. These sightings were reportedly known in the area well before the 1920s.
Speaker: Then there's also the story of The Bessie Stone in Papawick. Elizabeth Bessie Shepard was 17 years old when she was murdered in 1817. She had been walking toward Mansfield on Nottingham Road near Harlow Wood looking for work, and she encountered a former Napoleonic War veteran, Charles Rotherham, who had been drinking at the nearby Hutt Public House.
Speaker: Charles beat Bessie to death with a hedge stake, and his intention was to rob her, and then when he realized she wasn't carrying any money, he stole her yellow umbrella and her shoes.
Speaker: He then returned back to the hut in an attempt to sell her stolen shoes and umbrella. He was not successful successful there, and so he tried then at the Seven Mile Inn and at the Three Crowns Inn.
Speaker: He was eventually arrested and executed. Her murder stone was erected in 1819, and today there are many local accounts of the stone being haunted. The first story is...
Speaker: that Bessie is said to appear every time the stone is disturbed. When the A60 Nottingham Road was widened in the 1930s, Her stone was moved back several feet.
Speaker: Shortly after this, a figure was seen littering around the spot where the stone used to be for many days afterward. Similar sightings were also reported 20 years later after the stone was unfortunately hit by a car.
Speaker: That's really sad. Amen. Bessie's ghost was also seen many times by staff. by staff at the Harlow Wood Hospital. And I'm not sure though, if the Harlow Wood Hospital was close to the murder scene or how they knew the ghost was Bessie, but that is just.
Speaker: Some of the lower there.
Speaker: And then lastly, in 1988, the police were called to Bessie's grave and Papawick because vandals removed her gravestone. To ask for the public's help in finding her gravestone, police officers were photographed by her murder stone on the A60 Nottingham Road, and while touching the stone for the photograph, one of the officers received a vision showing him exactly where the missing headstone was. in Papawik, buried 200 feet away from the grave. They were able to replace the gravestone but it was later removed to keep the location of her grave a secret.
Speaker: And so lastly, I just.
Speaker: want to talk about moralizing and murder stones. So one of the most interesting things about murder stones and what separates it from gravestones, aside from the fact that the body isn't buried under the stone and it commemorates the site of the murder, not a body's resting place, is the moralizing part of this practice. The inscriptions on the murder stones don't just memorialize the victim. they're more often a warning. Look what happened. Don't do this. Don't be greedy. Don't commit violence. God is watching. And some murder stones put the responsibility on the victim, warning of what could happen if you walk late at night, or visit places of entertainment without adequate protection.
Speaker: Murder stones were placed on the site of a murder not just as a memorial, but as a warning. Because many of these murders took place on isolated paths and at parish boundaries, moorland roads, by crossroads, wooded areas, and other locations that were associated with highway robbery. The stone essentially is warning travelers that this ordinary looking place isn't ordinary at all and that something terrible happened there.
Speaker: So that is Murderstones. Love it. I knew nothing about those before. So, i you know, and what's crazy is like living in England. for almost four years i had no clue about any of this we We have been to a lot of these places in here. Yeah. New to look for murder stones. So now I told Mike we have to go back so that I can go look for all the murder stones. So you never saw one at all when you were there? oh yeah oh We might have.
Speaker: passed by and didn't even know. I just and didn't know. Yeah. Salam. Gonna have to go back. For sure. Well... Now. We're going to take a little detour over to Italy. And I'm going to be talking about Poveglia Island.
Speaker: So Poveglia is a small island in the Venetian Lagoon located between Venice and Lido. The name dates back to 421 AD. though it was once called papilia, and by the 16th century, maps referred to it as pavegia.
Speaker: After the Lombard invasions of mainland Italy in the 6th century, Paveglia became a refuge for settlers. Over time, it developed into a fortified community, and by 864,
Speaker: It was a thriving settlement built around fishing and salt production. That changed during the War of Chiazza. And that was a conflict between Venice and Genoa from 1378 to 1381.
Speaker: Prevalia was destroyed and most of its residents were forced to leave. Only a small number of inhabitants actually remained there on the island. According to the Wikipedia page, centuries later, the island took on a new purpose.
Speaker: Beginning in the late 1700s, Pavilion was placed under the authority of Venice's health magistrate. And it became the quarantine station. for any incoming ships and their cargo, a role that continued in various forms for well over a century.
Speaker: And what I want to point out, though, here is that Wikipedia really downplays this part of Pavelia's history. Yes, it was a quarantine station for incoming ships and their cargo But that quarantine was because these ships were loaded with plague victims.
Speaker: So. Yeah. So essentially. The health magistrate of Venice knew that having the plague on their island would be detrimental. So what he decided to do was that they would load the infected.
Speaker: onto these ships. Take them over to Borrelia. And then abandon them there. Like. With nothing. And so mass graves that were known as death pits were dug and the dead were just tossed in. And once a pit was full, it was either A, set on fire or B, covered with dirt.
Speaker: And this led to a claim that Pavelia is 50 % dirt and 50 % human ash. So in 1922... the island's existing buildings were converted into a long term care facility for elderly.
Speaker: and underprivileged residents. So accounts from this time describe the residents as like Tending gardens, growing crops, and even like producing wine on the island. Though depending on the source, it was also noted that the island was a psychiatric hospital during this time.
Speaker: And who knows, like both could be true depending on the facility size and the capability. So the facility eventually closed. In 1968, leaving the island's buildings abandoned and increasingly overtaken by decay.
Speaker: In more recent years, there have been several attempts to give Pavilion a new purpose. So a proposed private redevelopment in 2014 was unsuccessful.
Speaker: while a citizens group called Pavilion Partouti fought to keep the island publicly accessible. After years of legal battles, the group was finally granted a six -year concession in 2025 for the northern part of the island.
Speaker: with plans to create a public lagoon park and cultural space. So now that we kind of have like the background, let's talk about the spookiness. While Pavilion's history alone is fascinating,
Speaker: It's the dark stories that really cemented the island's reputation. So for decades, stories have circulated about strange occurrences on Pavilion. Stories of restless spirits. mysterious sounds.
Speaker: and a dark history that supposedly refuses to stay buried. So now that we know a little bit about what happened on Pavilion, let's go into the stories that made this abandoned island. one of the most infamous supposedly haunted places in Italy.
Speaker: Remember those mass graves that I mentioned earlier? How could I forget? When historians eventually discovered them. there was some rather unusual things that they noticed about the skulls.
Speaker: So while most of the remains appeared completely normal, some of the skulls had large pieces of rocks. deliberately wedged between their jaws. And as we know, throughout history,
Speaker: When people encountered something that they didn't understand, they often turn to the supernatural explanations. And at the time. The decomposition of human bodies in mass graves wasn't well understood.
Speaker: So because these pits were being used so frequently, gases and fluids produced during decomposition could build up inside the body and eventually forcing blood and other fluids out through the mouth.
Speaker: So to people that didn't understand the biological process behind it. seeing a corpse with blood coming out of the mouth was deeply unsettling. In their conclusion, They must have been vampires and they must have been feasting on the corpses.
Speaker: You know, I can see how they got. You can try. It would be like, what the fuck? happening here yeah So, and while most of us would jump to like...
Speaker: Wouldn't stake through the heart. In the 16th century, it was believed that to slay a vampire, You had to put a stone in its mouth, causing it to starve. Hence, several skulls were found.
Speaker: with stones in their mouths in these pits. Even today, fishermen reportedly avoid the waters around Pavilion Island, deliberately navigating around the area.
Speaker: On clear days, it's said that skulls and bones can sometimes be seen beneath the surface. And when a skull or a bone is accidentally caught in a fishing net, The fishermen reportedly throw the entire catch back.
Speaker: into the water. rather than risk like bringing it ashore. And the island is believed to have been the final resting place. of around 160 ,000 plague victims So spotting parts of their skeleton has been common enough.
Speaker: to create these spooky tales and superstitions. And going back to... the psychiatric history in 1922. When the psychiatric patients were said to arrive on the island, it was noted that the facility's director soon became notorious for allegedly carrying out horrific experiments on those in his care.
Speaker: This included lobotomies, which if you don't know what that is, it involves using instruments like a chisel and a hammer through your eye socket. So eventually, the director himself reportedly lost his sanity and threw himself from the facility's clock tower.
Speaker: According to the local legend, the ghost of his victims drove him to his death. The abandoned psychiatric hospital still stands today, but since 1968, No one has lived on the island.
Speaker: except for perhaps maybe some unhappy ghosts. And then... Let's talk a little bit about why. It's sometimes referred to as Ghost Island.
Speaker: So it's not hard to imagine that an island with such a dark history might be overcrowded with restless souls. Fishermen claim to hear screams and moans drifting from the island. And some even say that they've heard the old bell in the tower ringing.
Speaker: in the distance but like the problem here is that the bell was removed years ago One of the island's most famous spirits is known as Little Maria. And according to legend, this young girl has been seen wandering the island for more than 400 years.
Speaker: She's believed to have died during the plague. and supposedly stole Rome's the beach. Crying in a way that's said to be utterly heartbreaking. But the island's ghosts don't all date back to the plague. Some are said to come from its later years with the psychiatric hospital.
Speaker: So Pietro, a man. who had both legs amputated. was reportedly known for racing his wheelchair through the hospital corridors. And visitors claim... that even today they can hear the unmistakable sound of a wheelchair just like zooming down abandoned hallways.
Speaker: No, thank you. I think it's kind of funny though. He's just like, gotta to go. Okay. And then there's Frederico. whose spirit is said to spend eternity grinning and laughing throughout the day.
Speaker: A young woman has also reportedly been seen inside the hospital. her face frozen in an expression of pure terror. And according to legend, she is still afraid of the mad doctor who is supposedly continuing his horrific experiments within the abandoned building.
Speaker: And the stories don't stop there. People claim to have seen enormous eyes staring up from beneath the surface of the water. while others swear that they've spotted ghost faces watching them from behind the hospital windows.
Speaker: And for those brave enough to actually set foot on the island, the experience is said to be anything but ordinary. Visitors claim to feel as though they're being watched or even being followed as they make their way around the island.
Speaker: Some become overwhelmed by inexplicable sense of dread and sorrow and the most or from the moment they arrive. The abandoned hospital can be entered through several points, but perhaps the most disturbing entrance is also the easiest one. So through the old... Cremators?
Speaker: Is apparently like. the worst. And I would imagine so, right? yeah Once inside, visitors have reported seeing shadows moving across the wall, seemingly following them through the corridors.
Speaker: and others claim to have been scratched, pushed, or touched by something that they couldn't see. And by the time they finally leave, Almost nobody leaves the island completely unshaken.
Speaker: And then Ghost Adventures, which I i knew but completely forgot. And Sam and I talked about this offline. But Ghost Adventures was given permission to film on the island. And so you know we've talked about...
Speaker: Recently in our ghost hunting episode. That like, just as a reminder, a lot of these shows add dramatics because excitement is what sells on TV. But if you're interested in watching that episode, it's season three, episode two.
Speaker: And it's a pretty good one. And just a note of warning. Prevelia is not open to the public. meaning that you dear listeners are unable to travel there.
Speaker: For a spooky adventure on a whim. However, If you are interested in visiting the island, you can apply to do so. So it could take up to like several years to get your approval.
Speaker: and it's awesome yeah Apparently, it's not a very quick process. But also it's noted that it's very difficult to find a ship that will actually be willing to take you to the island as well.
Speaker: Because of all the superstitions and stories about it. Alternatively, You can see the island from the water on a boat or from nearby beaches if you're just wanting to like lay eyes on it. and not necessarily go into it.
Speaker: And if you want to visit... historic munition islands with former hospitals or asylum histories. You can legally go to San Servolo. or San Lazaro instead.
Speaker: But that. is Pavilion Island. Girls trip, you know. I know. Let's see if we can get that one approved. let's do it excuse us we would love to come Yes.
Speaker: See all the ghosties. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. I would like to hear the zooming wheelchair. Yeah.
Speaker: That's a wrap on this episode of Get In Loser We're Doing Witchcraft. We hope you had as much fun as we did. If you love this episode, we'd be eternally grateful if you left us a five -star review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
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Speaker: Join us next week as we discuss how magical practices can affect your mental health. Until then, stay magical, stay curious, and as always, blessed be witches.
