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What If Comic Book Geeks Took Over an Episode of SRTN? Starring Martin Michaud-Couch, Sean Wynn, Ethan Slayton and Ken Volante
191 Plays4 years ago
This episode is a Team-Up including Martin Michaud-Couch, Sean Wynn, Ethan Slayton and Ken Volante. Featuring the following characters - Conan, Spider-Man, Shang Chi, Nick Fury, The Punisher, Gwen Stacy, The Green Goblin, and so much more!
The premise is that we each describe a WHAT IF issue of Marvel Comics. What If comics explore different chains of causality in Marvel Comics in order to entertain alternate realities. These comics are really strange and run from the profound to the half-assed.
Strap yourself in for this carnival ride. 4 issues of WHAT IF. 4 geeks recording in the pure and natural environs of Portland, Oregon USA.
This episode was deeply fun and it is still tough to believe that this team was able to sit down together for the first time, in the same spot, EVER.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10168312/
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
You are listening to Something Rather Than Nothing, creator and host Ken Vellante, editor and producer, Peter Bauer. This is Ken Vellante with the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast. On cue, we have birds over ahead. We are in Portland outside and very special. What if?
Guest Introductions and Banter
00:00:31
Speaker
What if a comic review episode pulling on
00:00:37
Speaker
Honestly, the biggest talents I know, at least the comic mind talent, that's all I'll say for now, Ethan Slaton, who just rode in on a motorcycle, Ethan Slaton. It's great to have you. That for my motorcycle club, I recall your time there. How's it going? Wonderful. It's good to see you again, or at least hear you again. Something rather than nothing, alum. And we're going to introduce the alums first, Ethan Slaton.
00:01:07
Speaker
gifted artists. And we got Sean Wynn. Welcome back again to the podcast. It is good to be here. It's good to hear you. It's good to smell you. Yeah. I hope that's a good thing. Yeah. Like just me being an animalistic, just kind of like, you're not a threat to me. No, it's my whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm down Wynn, so I'm good. We aren't supernatural powers already.
00:01:35
Speaker
in our What If episode. And we got Martin. And Martin, if you could introduce yourself and tell, since you're a new voice, a new face at the table to the show, tell us a bit about yourself. My name is Martin Michaud Couch. I'm a ex-comic book worker, social media
00:01:59
Speaker
coordinator, customer service rep, I guess. That's pretty much everything I got right now, yeah.
Regional Identity and Comic Book Debates
00:02:08
Speaker
You're an American, right? Is that why you want to label yourself as? No, I just need like in general, like, there's 2021 America, those, I mean, you know, it's the world the way it is. We're Vermonter, thank you, Ken.
00:02:23
Speaker
He says for Monster, I always thought it was for Monster, but maybe it's original. That's the Ben and Jerry's super deluxe 20,000 scoops of pure sugar in a bucket. I'm not kidding. That's a real thing. That's a real thing. The Monster. Look it up. Ben and Jerry's. This is why all the kids from the early 1980s now have diabetes. I was actually just thinking about this. You just thinking about diabetes? I think about diabetes, but I was also thinking I'm the actually the only
00:02:52
Speaker
born and raised Portland are here. Yes, let's Ken Vellante. So we got to kill him.
00:03:07
Speaker
I'm trying to finesse this episode in, and that was Ethan who went for the kill. I wanted to say that you are a Vermonter, or a Vermonster, that you're a Vermonter. I'm from Pawtucket, Rhode Island. Chicago. Chicago. And Martin is just here. Why is he the oddity? Because it's Portland. And nobody that lives here is from here.
Conan the Barbarian in Modern NYC
00:03:32
Speaker
Well, you live here, so that's not a correct statement. Right, I forgot. Thank you for clarifying. Maybe he's an emissary. Maybe he's had an emissary role for these years. He's just been waiting for us to show up. The true communion between the cultures. All right, folks, we have too much material. You're gonna learn
00:03:58
Speaker
about the cast of characters around the table. But I'm going to launch into what is this thing. So normally you're going to learn about philosophy. You're going to hear me try to process philosophy on ear. There's going to be a little bit of that in this episode because that episode is the what if.
00:04:19
Speaker
episode of something rather than nothing but for those who don't know what if was basically an alternate storytelling alternate reality multiverse different reality something that came out of Marvel Comics just a question yeah just a question what if this happened yeah um but I want to tell you about my issue because it had it was
00:04:46
Speaker
It came in and knocked on the door. So let me read the cover here. This is, what if Conan the Barbarian walked the Earth today? And I quote, and Marvel is not a company that's prone to bombast or overstatement. But if they were, this might be an overstatement. At last, the most requested, longest awaited, and most controversial tale ever. Wow.
00:05:16
Speaker
I'm not done. That's some work, Marvel. Ever. Ever. Ever. Of the world's most savage hero. Wolverine? Oh, no, Conan. Conan. Oh, Conan. And behind Conan is a picture, and I noticed this last night for the first time, of a poster of Star Wars.
00:05:39
Speaker
The movie poster, if you look on the cover, I'm showing the fellers here, is actually a Star Wars. So I want to place you right in this, this episode, this issue could not be more 1978. I don't know how it could be anything more, and you'll learn more.
00:05:56
Speaker
So, what if Kony and the Barbarian walked the Earth today? This was 1978, so we're at 2021, but this is 1978. So it's a time trip both for you listeners and for Kony. Now, the time traveling sequence here, I'm going to tell it really quick because the technical details don't hold up.
00:06:19
Speaker
Basically, Conan is seduced, go figure, by a comely lass. What? Not my Conan. He is tripped up, misdirected, made drunk, and maybe drugged.
00:06:36
Speaker
and finds himself in bondage the next day. Where he's visited... What's the age limit on this one? This is, this is generally accessible. This is, this is off your circular racks back then. Hey kids, ball gag. So to speak. All right. Yeah, sorry. All right, so the time travels. Basically, there's this evil wizard guy, and for some reason, the wizard guy throws Conan and the woman who duped him.
00:07:05
Speaker
in this, uh, kind of like, uh, uh, like, uh, just a bot, like if you had a well and just like the water bucket, just a big one going into the center of time.
00:07:15
Speaker
chasm, whole. And yeah, go ahead, go ahead. And this is what he did? Yeah, yeah. Well, the wizard got, this is what the wizard guy is just hanging around. Like he lives there and it's in his basement or something, right? And you go down into it like Conan did. Now, as Conan's going down, of course, we've seen this, think about the flash, like, oh, dinosaurs, oh, wild west.
00:07:41
Speaker
Like, cool things, all right? Now superheroes are there. So he's seen all these flashy things start happening. And then all of a sudden, for some reason, the rope snaps. I forget what happens with the woman, who he had bedded the night before. But I don't know what happened to her. But Conan, all of a sudden, is on the highlands of New York City. And he's holding his sword, and it's basically a blackout immediately. That Conan is now in 1978.
00:08:14
Speaker
specifically is in Greenwich Village and I don't know if you've ever been to Greenwich Village. I've had a week there one weekend. Do you know what I mean, fellas? Okay. Jenny, sorry to say that Jenny is an assistant here back behind me. I did have a week, one weekend there in Greenwich Village. She's shaking her head.
00:08:38
Speaker
Guess what happens next, and this is my favorite part of the issue. I'm gonna go right out there with this one.
00:08:44
Speaker
Conan's in Greenwich Village. She's walking around. Hey, it's Sylvester Stallone. Hey, you in that Rocky movie? Hey Arnold Schwarzenegger pumping iron. And you see like Star Wars posters all over. So how does Conan know any of these people? He doesn't. He doesn't. He's just, he's in the village. He's just informed. He's just, he's just there. He's just walking around. He can't speak English. He's from Samaria. Wait, is he still Mickey?
00:09:11
Speaker
I will show you a picture. He does not wear much. In that very detail, the fact that Konyan is only wearing a loincloth actually comes into play two pages from now. The first thing that happens though is that Konyan encounters this band. This band's name, unfortunately, I'm going to play this right out there. Their name is Grop.
00:09:33
Speaker
The name of the band is Grope. And I'm going to just... G-R-O-P-E. G-R-O-P-E. Grope. This is a 1978 New York City punk band made up of three members. The three members to the best way I can describe them are... Donald Trump. Nope. Oh. Close. No. Thank you. I'm going to high five him. You can't see that list. You're so right, Ethan. The first character I call...
00:10:03
Speaker
Joker kiss and the reason why it's basically the Joker combined with kiss, 1978 kiss, makeup, green here. I totally see the green here. Right. So what I'm describing to you is somebody like if you smashed up Gene Simmons in a Joker. Joker from like the the the 70s and 60s comics. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And Neil Adams run like that. Yeah. Thank you Martin. So
00:10:33
Speaker
Uh, so the other one I call bad acid Mr. Miracle. He doesn't look good. This is kind of Mr. Miracle looking guy, but he, this reality ain't a good one for this Mr. Miracle. The third one is only like a zombie. So they had like kind of like death, like trip, like weird band.
00:10:57
Speaker
So they have Joker Kiss, Bad Acid, Mr. Miracle. I mean that's his name, Bad Acid. That's also the punk band's name. Now do you think that was done on purpose? You think all those characters were done on purpose?
00:11:15
Speaker
My only, the only one I know for sure that was done on purpose was Joker Kiss. I think that's, that's absolutely what's going on here. It kind of looks like, it kind of looks like we're giving the shaft to DC. There's, there's some back and forth. Thank you on that. Um, so here's something really strange that happens if you're, if your journey is... But wait a minute. Is this John Usema's artwork? Uh, I believe... For Sal?
00:11:37
Speaker
Yes, jeez, yes. Okay, already you have a better comic than I do, but go ahead. Okay, so Ethan, explain to the audience now, identifying the artist and just why that's a good thing. John Buscema was kind of a, he was a house, in-house artist for many years.
00:11:55
Speaker
and he was kind of the guy that could basically draw anything and everybody to make them they were all powerful and and he was the guy for a really long time and he was just he was just one of those prolific artists fantastic artists he would draw he had an ability to draw a realistic and and combine it with cartoony yeah you look at this guy here you know he's got this kind of like that's no guy that's no guy
00:12:24
Speaker
I'm very sorry to the character who I just pointed out as a man. This great cartoony visage of an individual who may or may not be
00:12:40
Speaker
Sexual in in some way she performed and they are
Comic Art Style and Impact
00:12:43
Speaker
this is all a sexual scene. Let me fill in the gap Oh gross jump in no I know I know I know I have to lead you there. You need a show. I want to go away from there Everybody needs to go in on this. Okay. What happens is Konyan is hungry. He pops into the grocery store I think he just robbed some bread or probably brought me out of the you know, he's hungry. He's Konyan for crying all out and
00:13:08
Speaker
And he steps outside, and a woman, the older woman, and Ethan was like, I thought that was a guy, and that's fine. He's looked, glanced over, there's no telling. This old woman clobbers Conan with her purse, clobbers him, and he turns around and he's kind of like, what the fuck just happened? You know, like, what did I just get hit with?
00:13:28
Speaker
and she's yelling at him. What are you walking around with your stuff dangling around basically? He says, what the heck's going on? He says, run around here with your beer bejesus hanging around like old ladies.
00:13:41
Speaker
She yells at him, so she's upset because for her it's a decency question. He's being indecent. So he looks at her finally and says, this is a witch from Samaria. So he's threatened in his basic mind, his basic Samarian mind, and confused about being at Greenwich Village. Heck, I was confused about being at Greenwich Village, and I grew up on the East Coast, right? He's from Samaria. He takes her.
00:14:08
Speaker
and stuffs her in a garbage can an old decrepit woman she's like she's no less than 75 years young poor lady and um and he's mumbling now mind you throughout this how is dialogue happening it's not konian is not speaking anything coherent to anybody right okay
00:14:32
Speaker
Conan is going down the street, there's police, all this is creating a ruckus. He passes Spider-Man, who actually plays no further role in this story.
00:14:44
Speaker
He's with Mary Jane. Her hair is beautiful and straight. That 1970's reddish black. Is he spiking up or is he being a partner right now? I'm confused. I'm going to have to put this over for verification.
00:15:03
Speaker
I'm handing this over to Sean and Martin. He asked me a simple question of whether Peter is in plain clothes or he's in Spider-Man, but I wasn't able to answer that question by the panel. To me, it looks like a plaid shirt, but yeah, it's a red, short-sleeved plaid shirt.
00:15:24
Speaker
with just the lines that could be mistaken for the webbing easily. I don't think it's real. I don't think it's a costume though. What is your take? I think it's a colored shirt that just happens to match his costume. But to me, this makes me think that somebody wanted him to be in costume and they're just like, they started drawing the lines and the colorist went in and were just like,
00:15:47
Speaker
No! Isn't this violating like if you're in a band you don't wear your own band shirt type of code? Or is that going on here? Is it okay? Think about like old school like Power Rangers and whatever like every time they're like not in the Power Rangers outfit they're still wearing it like the Red Rangers always wear a red T-shirt. Right so you can identify them. You need to identify them. Perfectly practical explanation thank you. There's a reasonable explanation not everything is an X-file.
00:16:15
Speaker
Alright, next thing that happens, remember we're in 1978, Conan is jumping out of danger. He scales the wall like he's King Kong. Up the wall. Look, he's scaled that wall as he's going to the top. And you're thinking right now, we're thinking King Kong, we're thinking New York City, we're starting to think love interests, right? We're starting to think that. He's on the wild. He's feral. He's from Samaria. He's a warrior.
00:16:45
Speaker
He probably lost the one in the well. We don't know. I don't remember what happened to her. Pardon. It's no disrespect to her. I just don't know her outcome. I don't recall. Yeah, I don't think they made that important anyway. No. Okay,
Spider-Man 'What If' Alternate Realities
00:17:00
Speaker
Conan is going into the city street.
00:17:03
Speaker
And at this point, what would approach but a yellow cab? This is 1978 New York City. And oh my gosh, Conan, is this is the yellow dragon of lore that I will strike down with my sword and jumps down, smashes the hood of this woman's cab. And this poor woman, she has a nice driver's cap. She's wearing a tube top. She has curly hair, very friendly. And she's like,
00:17:33
Speaker
What the heck you doing, you big oaf? Like, yeah. Go ahead, Sean. Cut him. Cut him. Cut him. Cut him. I've been waiting. I've been waiting. So he sees a yellow cab and decides that's the beast he needs to slay. Yes, that is exactly the case. Being in and out the store and all up in New York City, this the first fucking car you see?
00:17:55
Speaker
Like, is it the yellow? Or is it the... There has to be... I'm doing a quick review. Sean has brought up a very important point, actually. It could just be he's heard about how bad Yellow Cab was. And just decided, I've heard that some New Yorkers don't like Yellow Cab, and I'm gonna avenge their...
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think it was a psychological warfare checker pattern. I mean it's it's Conan how much psychological patterns are we talking about here other than I Think he's got like three sex food and breathing. I think that's about it. Oh and for fighting. Yeah fighting before breathing Yeah, right What am I saying?
00:18:40
Speaker
uh goodness where am i no no no clarifying questions i think i've said a lot uh there's you know about halfway through this uh this this issue i'll open up the clarification you need this is a strange story it's open for you okay i'm just saying like i just i get that we have to keep the plot moving but that's you know
00:19:00
Speaker
Again, this is an older comic. I'm not gonna, like, knock the writer or anything like that, but I just thought that was weird. It was like, oh, the yellow cab is what it's gonna make. Now I've got a... There's a plot point. The plot point is only to introduce Danette. We'll soon know her as Danette. And Danette is the one I had to describe with... You know, she's a 78 plucky young woman, like, driving a cab, and now that cab's been destroyed, and she has a strong, healthy man wearing a loincloth. With this.
00:19:30
Speaker
As a passenger, or as the old woman had already warned us, and she was quickly discarded. So when did the cops get called? Cops. Cops. Cops. Where there were cops and they were like, eh, Greenwich Village. I say two things. It's 1978 New York City. Yeah, cops not super copped up like you get into the 80s and 90s. So not a copped up state.
00:19:59
Speaker
But the other the other bit too is I haven't told you but cops are kind of behind Kony and this whole story just so I'm trying to They're just watching it just like what's this guy gonna do? You see this judge? You see this guy? They keep running after him and they keep calling ahead. Do you know it's like hey I went my two blocks my union contract says two blocks
00:20:24
Speaker
Bill and Larry All right, you got the next two books. I'm out. We're in the next precinct. Next precinct. We're done. This isn't my issue any longer. I need a donut. All right, we got Kony in running through the city. A lot of good questions. A lot of good questions. The questions will not be answered, everybody. The questions will not be answered. Danette,
00:20:43
Speaker
takes Conan to help him guide him in a certain way. They're helping each other, right? Remember now, Conan is not speaking a word, a lick of English or any other human of this time tongue. She brings him home.
00:21:02
Speaker
Uh, to her home. As you do. As you do from... Attacking your cab or attacking your cab, having your schlong out. Being a non-fear pal. Being a non-fear pal. What's he paying us a payager? Not saying anything in 1978's New York. Not a recognizable language. It could be a terrorist. This is 78 New York. Right? There's so many red flags. Right? So many.
00:21:27
Speaker
So me. But now she has allowed him to enter her abode. At least the... You mean her home.
00:21:37
Speaker
That's French. I knew Martin was gonna start speaking French at some point and start to trip me up. I rebuffed like Conan rebuffs and So there's some there's some small talk a Conan does indeed take the net to her bed sister along and she was long and
00:22:00
Speaker
She was lonely. She was lonely. She works hard. So Conan's still helping her out. She's found Conan because, guys, we can all be comfortable in who we are. You know, we can be comfortable in this area. Conan walking around New York City, who's like built, like walk around, you're pretty much the top guy and you're carrying a sword and nobody can stop you. You're like, you're pretty tough, right? Yeah, because you know, I wouldn't do that. Just be like, you know, I've been waiting my whole life for this opportunity.
00:22:29
Speaker
barbarian man smash my cap smash my cap you were my means of financial security but uh i'm gonna take you home all right we gotta move past the love scene but before we move past the love scene i actually have to read the panel from the love scene oh no now remember konian has struggled with the english tongue throughout this uh issue
00:22:55
Speaker
In order to recognize that Conan is not speaking English, it is depicted by a thick line in the bubble. So you know it's a different language. It's Cimerian. And he says, Conan, I am Conan. And she says, I think I, Danette, my name is Danette. Danette, Danette.
00:23:27
Speaker
Dan? Wow. Silence. That's not the end of the issue. That's the end of the lovemaking scene. The next day...
00:23:37
Speaker
Konian, well this is early morning. Konian is, I know you have a lot of questions. I want to be respectful of both the audience and my participants here at the table. We are going to spend time on what we need to spend time on. I'm going to open it up again to somebody need to interject. The love scene is just finished. Konian is now jumping out of the window. Let's call it what it is.
00:23:59
Speaker
Gross. Why'd you have to cause me to shit up? I just gave him a compliment two minutes ago.
00:24:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's the floor closed or open at this point. The floor is closed. Let's find out how else he fucks up. Alright, Konyan jumps out of the window. He goes swinging from fire escapes if you know the east coast and some parts of the country. You have the fire escapes where you can just fly off of them and swing. He swings all the way down.
00:24:41
Speaker
And I want to tell you at this point, outside of the band G.R.O.A.P. that began this issue, I want to tell you about what attracted me because this is an art and philosophy podcast. Well, it might not be after this episode, but it was. This has been its first hundred iterations. This has been an art and philosophy podcast.
00:25:06
Speaker
But in that spirit, what I want to say is this scene does go to the Guggenheim. So, gonna class up this shit, even if it's been sound tawdry, or late 70s New York. So we're gonna class this up. Now, why does Conan go to the Guggenheim? You might ask, you might have asked that if the open floor is open long enough. And you ask,
00:25:27
Speaker
Why does he go? You know why? Dinette, before he left the apartment, was able to identify that Conan was looking at books of old New York City maps and saw the Guggenheim as a ziggurat of Samaria.
00:25:43
Speaker
So, Conan believes in his Cimmerian mind that's been transplanted into modern times. When he's going to the Guggenheim, he's not going for Picassos, let's say. He's going to a ziggurat, or a temple, in his mind. Okay. This is an art podcast. He's at the Guggenheim. One of the first things that happened
00:26:08
Speaker
one of the first things that happened is that some kid in this kid isn't remember this kid in my view isn't more than 16 he's got a bowl cut and guess what he grabbed out of the Guggenheims
00:26:22
Speaker
He went over to the Sumerian stash of treasures from ancient Samaria and pulls out a sword. So now this little 16, 17 year old brat is striking up a sword to Conan and looks to be like, you might as well be the mighty king of my land, like threatening me. I don't care if you're whatever you are, I'm from Samaria.
00:26:43
Speaker
The kid grabbed the sword? Yeah, he's a looter, I'm sorry. He's a looter. He's a looter. What time? He's a looter. Ah, late 70's. Wait, so like the Guggenheim is just open right now, right? And this is the time he decided to steal the sword. I'm sorry. I can't do this perfectly the first time through and this story is complicated. Let me take us into the Guggenheim a little bit slower.
00:27:13
Speaker
Conan sees the ziggurat Guggenheim. He goes there. He's going there on a mission. There is a robbery in progress. Also in the New York City around this time, let me fill it out a little bit more. I've told you about Grop the Band, but outside of the Village you have a blackout. You have 1970s conservative minded editorial boards where
00:27:40
Speaker
Why are black people burning their own black neighborhoods? Why are they speaking about injustice in this way? Why, if you want to be taken seriously, do you have your hair in a ponytail, you dirty ass hip? You know, it's like very negative. This is going on, there's a lot going on in the background. And I don't know how much to tell you. This is the political background, the cultural background.
00:28:06
Speaker
So you might as well have a robbery going on at the Guggenheim. A pretty high-class heist, if you ask me. I would say so. I didn't go to your fancy institutes of art learning, but... Everybody knows the Guggenheim. People don't just walk in there and steal shit all the time. I know that. You know that, right Ethan?
Philosophical Themes in Spider-Man
00:28:24
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. You just won't walk in and steal shit. I wouldn't take a pecker bubblegum. Right? 16-year-old kid with the strongest sword in the land.
00:28:33
Speaker
If he can, he gets, let's put it politely, a knuckle sandwich. I'll clean up the act for a little bit. A knuckle sandwich right across the cheek. He's not dead. He's not dead. He looks dead in that. Conan is on a rampage. He, during this rampage, I'll describe it in broad strokes. He throws not one, but two adult males off multiple stories in the Guggenheim onto concrete freaking splat. Okay. All right.
00:29:03
Speaker
So he's just murdered some people. Conan is cleaning up this mess. Bull in a China shop.
00:29:11
Speaker
not stop in, and this is the Guggenheim. Now me, I'm an art lover, all you art lovers around this table. I'm aghast because of my recent sensibilities to art and treasures. I'm like, the Guggenheim's getting fucked up. All right, it's a comic book, but obviously I connect with comic books and I don't have as much, I don't have a great separation between what is real in the world and what Konyan did. If I did, we wouldn't be doing this podcast, for example. So I have trouble with those connections.
00:29:41
Speaker
So, kid gets punched out. Two guys are thrown off the balcony. This is, this is, this is big time. Conan's in full Hulk mode. You know, full Hulk mode means you jump out into the street and you gotta find a vehicle. It's not a cab this time. We got a Beetle. A Beetle. A Beetle. He VW Beetle. Boom. Conan picks that up like it's a little piece of gold like leaf you put on a painting like snap it like that. Boom. Smash. Things are getting smashed about. Then that shows up again.
00:30:12
Speaker
crazy scene for her to walk into, step into. I mean, there's no police line set up. They do a cut scene. This is the cut scene I told you about. Why is everybody burning in their own neighborhoods, right? Somebody's face probably looks like Malcolm X. Oh, he's going to scare you and kill you. Like, all right, I get the political message. Let me go on to this. I'm trying to enjoy this story, Marvel Comics. My best of my ability.
00:30:39
Speaker
There's multiple scenes that happen. Anytime here, the fillers are throughout the stories that when Conions walk in anywhere in New York City, again, the police are right behind them. Somebody's bumping into them. Somebody looks like a cultural hero. You know, everything's a bump into kind of like a little bit of a psych gag. Guys are getting thrown off the balcony.
00:31:03
Speaker
And when it comes to my concerns about actual art pieces here, this is where they manifest themselves the most out of any. Conan is now directly engaged with what we would call art, and he's actually described as modern sculpture art that weighs more than a ton. Nobody can lift this thing except Conan. He picks it up like a frickin' wiffle ball, throws this shit, hits this guy's skull,
00:31:33
Speaker
And this thing's gonna weigh 3,000 pounds, right? I'm not talking, I'm not like talking like I'm threatening you. Oh, I'm gonna slap you, you silly boy. I'm saying 3,000 pounds across the skull. This is where I get really confused if you're not confused already. This is where it gets strange. Yeah, no, that's all right. Hang in there. We'll fill it in, I think.
00:31:57
Speaker
The gun is the guy who got hit with the sculpture. I'm surprised on the next panel because gosh darn it, I'm expecting really jello on the ground. That's as kind as I can put it. His head's still there and he's still alive even though I thought he was dead. I don't care what your character ranks for like helmet and shit. You ain't surviving. Dannette is upset by this whole mess. We have to understand that bringing
00:32:28
Speaker
bringing Danette into this situation. There might be gender dynamics and dynamics between her and Konyan. She's upset. This is a very upsetting scene. She does have feelings for Konyan, although they have not conversed in their native tongue, but they have spoken, what shall we say, the universal language of physical love, at least once that we clued in on the panel. Unfortunately, I know some of you said stop early in this story. We're deeper into this story, if you know what I mean.
00:33:01
Speaker
There's no way you can end it. This is where you got those records in the fifties and it's two and a half minutes. I don't give a fuck if you're on the best melody. Turn down the volume. Cut. What side B, right? This is, this story is going to end somewhere. Something like Konyan going on top of what is a ziggurat to him. Remember, I don't know what a ziggurat is. I just know the word. I mean, I don't think anybody does, but it's a tower or something. Ancient tower. He goes to the top of the ziggurat. Guggenheim gets out there. Big lightning.
00:33:24
Speaker
There's no way to end this story properly.
00:33:31
Speaker
You know, I'm thinking this scene's almost like Star Wars, Luke Skywalker, lightsaber, Arthur, outer space guy, has everything in there, blowing up Thor, Mjolnir, the whole thing. Everything's in there. He disappears. He disappears. He's gone.
00:33:51
Speaker
He's back in the ancient lands. Danette is left behind. There's one detail about Danette. I'm going to mention a couple more details. I'm going to open up for a free-for-all. Two details about Danette threw me off, and maybe I'm a simple-minded man, but that is a comic book. They referred to her as a redhead, but her hair is just honestly blonde throughout the whole world.
00:34:17
Speaker
And so it threw me off and you could call her strawberry. I don't care if you give me a better adjective, but she's not a redhead. So it was just, it was just a little irritation. And if I'm, I'm irritated about this detail after that tawdry tail that I just spun to you. They got the color wrong, right? I'm like too much of a critical, like that color is terrible, right? I have one more thing before I open it up because I have to leave this issue behind.
00:34:46
Speaker
There was another issue which I won't describe too much, but there's a related story that coned in the barbarian if he was stranded in the 20th century. And to give you an indication, I want to tell you that both of these are absolute must-reads for their own purposes, but
00:35:07
Speaker
But to tell you, they're both very good in their own way. I told you the reasons why I chose the one that I did was 1978, but I want to tell you, I chose it over the updated one, and the updated story was different, and featured Conan Boston into New York City.
00:35:26
Speaker
busting into a black gang creating co-ownership ruling of the gang with the black weightlifting um head of the gang basically starting hustling so they basically throw konian konian's in this weird moral territory in this whole story as you could tell they throw him in as like
00:35:45
Speaker
Um, like bad guy, like underworld of like New York City. So the tale is kind of told with him navigating. He pimps. Coney and pimps. Coney and pimps. But look at the cover. I mean, honestly though, it shows you that. Describe the cover, Martin, please. Describe it. What if Conan, we're stranded in the 20th century, is literally Conan.
00:36:08
Speaker
in his armor with this massive metal helmet pointing a magnum at the reader. Thank you. No, don't hold back. People have to listen. We're getting to see it. And it is startling, yes. Honestly, now that you said that, like you said, Tony impents in that issue, based on everything we saw in the issue prior to that, that's not that far. No, it's not. It ain't like he's got any respect for women.
00:36:35
Speaker
If he lands on the other side of the village, that's his life. Not to be like, what chance and happenstance if you don't speak English, you end up in the wrong side of the neighborhood.
00:36:45
Speaker
You're involved with other business. Yeah, he's certainly not going to be chilling in Manhattan. He's not going to be... Yeah, that's crazy though. So I really don't... I mean, I love these issues. I don't want to talk about me being the person who talks about these issues. I want to open it up because for me, I needed processing. I've read these issues three times a piece.
00:37:09
Speaker
And so I've needed processing, but I processed them through my verbal processing now. Thank you, everybody. That is what if Conan the Barbarian walked the earth today at last, the most requested, longest awaited, and most controversial tale ever of the world's most savage hero. May I? Yeah. Okay, so first I'm gonna say this. I am gonna try my best.
00:37:38
Speaker
to not point out all of the obvious plot goals in this place. And it's because this show has been predominantly about philosophy. I'm going to try to stick to that. A conceptual approach to this story, maybe. Yes. And so right off the bat.
00:37:58
Speaker
You know, I would love to say, like, you know, this is a story about man's struggle and, you know, identifying with this round. This is not bad at all. This is so hard to pinpoint for this material because of shit. It feels sloppy. Is that what you're saying? It feels sloppy. It seems hasty. There's nothing for me to gain from it. There's no insight in this.
00:38:23
Speaker
That I picked up a list, like, fellas... No, jump in. It's interesting because this is maybe the first time, the 78 issue. Maybe this is the first time they published Conan being in the now. But, what? Three years ago, he became part of the regular Marvel Universe and became an Avenger.
00:38:46
Speaker
A savage Avenger. Okay, there we go. Lean in physically and lean in in the more metaphorical sense. Lean into us, tell us about this. Marvel decided we're going to put Conan into the regular world because we want to see what he's going to do with today's villains and today's heroes and everything. It was weird, but also kind of fun, but also really weird, but a lot of good art. I'll say a lot of good art. Throw it in there. Thank you. A lot of good art.
00:39:16
Speaker
I just wanted to ask, you said Marvel wanted to put Conan in the Avengers to see what he would do as a hero. I don't know a lot about Conan.
00:39:26
Speaker
Is he really a hero? I mean, because based on this comic, would probably be the first. Have you, have you, let me ask you a question. Have you read a bunch of Conan? No, that's what he's saying. I have. But no, he's asking you, he's asking you. But is he a hero? He, so in the world of Samaria, yes. I want a 30 second stab when you're done, that's all. That's all. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. I'm done. No, good.
00:39:55
Speaker
Now I want to know. No, I wanted to open the floor. I'm sorry, I was trying to... No, come on, come on, come on. I want to hear it. If it's good material, it's good material, son. Yeah. Bring it. Bring it. I don't know. I got to tell you, I got hijacked. I've lost my train of thought and I'll tell you why. And I'm going to have to abdicate my speaking time to everybody. Whenever I think a Coney in the Barbarian, I think a Red Sonja. And I distracted myself momentarily.
00:40:24
Speaker
So I threw myself off. Okay, right on, right on. So that's why I wanted to defer. Oh, no worries, no worries. So in the world of, as a Sumerian, Conan, not me, I'm a Vermonter, I already established that. He beats up the wizards that try to take power from smaller people. He kills those guys. So he's considered, he is considered a hero. He is also, but in the novels, if you want to go the novel route, he's also primarily
00:40:54
Speaker
at the beginning, a thief. Right. And so that's him scaling the wall in the comic. Very much what he would do normally. Yeah, he's scaled walls to break in. I mean, I think in the movie with Thulsa Doom, he goes in to steal that giant gem with a huge snake there. But that's, you know, he definitely is kind of like
00:41:16
Speaker
I wouldn't call him an anti-hero, but I would definitely call him somebody who's like, yeah, I'm gonna beat up the bad guy because he's doing wrong to me. And he's doing some wrong stuff to some other people who are gonna pay me to go kill this guy. I'm gonna go kill this guy. He's a mercenary. Right. But he also has a good heart, because there are moments through his journey that he actually, like, does the right thing. He eventually falls in love with this woman called Bilit, who is like a sea captain.
00:41:44
Speaker
Does she have any witch characteristics as well? Does she? The split? Yeah. I don't remember. I don't either. I don't think so. I think she was just, she was a Red Sonja, I think. Okay. To a large degree. And so he kind of fell in love with this woman who was leading the ship of pirates. Like she was like, this is, this is, this is Marvel in the 80s. This is, she was like, I'm running the show and he's working for her.
00:42:09
Speaker
So that was kind of cool. I would read that. Yes. Yeah, it was kind of cool. But so is he a hero? No. Is he a bad guy? No. Is he a sellsword? Yes. Is he a rogue? Yes. For me, it's almost like is Odysseus a hero and like the Odyssey. It's like the the morals are so fucked up. Pardon my French. You can't tell like, I don't know how you grade them. Like, I don't know. It's not clear. I will say one quick thing on that, though, too, is that
00:42:33
Speaker
that universe has them moving into ruling capacity. So you have King Conan, which is the majority of Conan, and Queen Sonia. And I love those because then it's like the political question of how they specifically rule with their like semi-aggression, war, deal-making. So I like that kind of like diplomacy. I'm not saying they're geniuses. No, no. I actually think
00:42:59
Speaker
Sonya is... So Sonya's the PhD out of the two. Right, right, right. Yeah, go ahead. No, King Conan is actually a great series. You're talking about how he runs the Kingdom. It's cool because he's like letting, kind of, he's got a son who he calls, um, Khan. Yes. So it's kind of truncated Conan real hard. Well, you have the truncated name. I mean, yeah, yeah. To Dan.
00:43:36
Speaker
They're going for kind of gross male humor I think a little bit
00:43:44
Speaker
I know they went for a lot of gross things in here. Yeah, they did. Yeah, they did. Guys, Sean and Martin, what I want to do is bump it over to you. What's your reaction to some of this in your knowledge level of Conan and maybe how you're entering this stream to use the Buddhist metaphor to try to clean it up again?
00:44:05
Speaker
Where you're entering this Conan In in your mind your experience. Well, okay, so I am a Conan here. Yes, so I kind of knew what to expect I've read a lot of Conan and I knew that he was a motherfucker
00:44:18
Speaker
So I just didn't, you know, I hadn't read this particular what if issue and I wasn't sure what take they were gonna go because like as Ethan pointed out, you have variations of Conan that they can present. There is Conan, the person, the kind of scumbag with the heart. There is the mercenary Conan, the thief Conan, and then the guy who just will beat everything in the room. In this case, they kind of with like,
00:44:46
Speaker
It didn't even feel like a heroic tale of somebody like being an underdog and like making their way back home or like a journey or anything. Everything seemed accidental almost. Yeah, it was just like...
00:45:00
Speaker
He didn't even gain anything from this experience. He learned nothing. He got thrown back in time, some shit happened, and then he magically got home. And that's it. He didn't come back with some after thoughts, some insight, nothing. We keep bumping up into the guard rail here that is Conan's intelligence. You've made a comment. I made a comment. We've got to be careful here. There's not a lot of room on the side. Martin, how do you come to Conan? I can't imagine you poor.
00:45:28
Speaker
You poor friend. What state you're in right now because we're not doing well but at least we had a little bit of something to bring in. The only real thing that I know about Conan prior to this comic is the Arnold movies. So I know he's a savage. So him coming to modern day New York
00:45:54
Speaker
I was like, yeah, that's probably about it. I mean, it's really, he just had a vacation day through time. They just dropped them off. They just dropped them off and they're like, hey, have fun for a day. And he did it. Yeah, I got a sharp table here, yeah. I think you... One thing I wanted to... I'm feeling some of the same energy. Go ahead. But one thing, going through this comic and even looking at the cover of it, to me, it just feels like something that was...
00:46:26
Speaker
They're in an editor room, and they're like, we need a what if for February, who's got something? And somebody just said, well, we've got Conan, right? What if he and Spider-Man teamed up? And they're like, nah, we can't do that. But what if he was just in New York? Fine, do it. Look out the window. Get it done. What's going on outside the window? I need it done by this afternoon. Make it current.
00:46:45
Speaker
Because even though Black Panther's in there, right? Right. Because even looking at the cover to me is kind of a ripoff of, and I don't remember, and guys correct me, Days of Future Past. Yeah, I was just about to point it out. It looks like that iconic Wolverine Kitty Pride cover of Days of Future Past.
00:47:04
Speaker
That's exactly what that is. And I'm just like, oh my gosh. Why? I didn't. So to me, it just. You're saying that now the neuron fire. It's not like, ha ha, wink, wink. It's a, no, this was sitting on the desk next door. And they're like, yeah, that'll work. Let's just redo that. I think I just want to hit on a common theme. How do you get a common theme out of this? And congratulations to us. But the theme of a certain haphazard storytelling, a certain
00:47:33
Speaker
Like, lack of- Look, we're not moral center- I'm not a moral center guy, but like a little bit of a guidepost to see how decisions are made. He stuffed an elderly woman in a trash can. Maybe he's not a good guy. Well, after she properly- After she properly, for her generation, corrected the man with the loincloth walking around the city, probably for his own protection. I mean, it's a big guy, but you're gonna- You're walking around without clothes. The police are gonna get you.
00:48:03
Speaker
And he's not speaking English. Any stuff, sir? Well, she did hit him with her hex bag. Yep. To admonish him. To admonish him at first. All right. That was... It was a journey for me to go through. Three times. It was a journey. Two issues, three times. Six times.
00:48:29
Speaker
Part of my obsessive nature. One of the things, dear listeners, with something rather than nothing is I did bestow our great co-hosts here in Conspirators within What If with candy in comic books.
00:48:47
Speaker
and other sundries. We are going at a pace where the material we're going through is kind of like going through the book of the Corinthians much bigger, much bigger. I'm not saying it's stylistically the same. I'm saying a lot of material to delve into, but we are going to move in now without pause. We are going to go into our second issue.
00:49:12
Speaker
This has not been pre-decided. We'll go to random unless one of our, one of the great co-conspirators here jumps in. Looks like Sean's doing it. Sean is up. Sean Wynn, you might remember him, I think from episode might have been like eight. I keep saying issue episode eight from the Praetorians. A good friend of mine. Great to see him face to face. We've got comic books in front of us.
00:49:38
Speaker
Sean Wynn's gonna tell us his what if scenario and hopefully we can hold on to during high winds like that Conan story. Go ahead Sean.
00:49:49
Speaker
All right, so the issue I chose, I think you'll be pretty happy with because I do think we will be able to discuss a little bit of philosophy because of this. Whoa. There are some moral decisions with this one. Wow. What I have here is What If Spider-Man, House of M. And for those that don't know, the House of M Marvel storyline is kind of already its own What If story.
00:50:13
Speaker
It's the big Marvel event where the Scarlet Witch has changed the entire reality so that the world is now beholden to mutants in power, specifically her father Magneto. And so all of them, she changed everybody's reality and kind of like gives them all of their desires.
00:50:35
Speaker
to some extent. Spider-Man ends up in this world. Now the thing that's important to know about Spider-Man when he gets his reality changed is this. When he gets his desires filled, what that means is that Gwen Stacy has never died.
00:50:54
Speaker
So Green Goblin never killed Gwen Stacy. He is now married to her and they have a child and he's rich and famous and respected. Peter Parker married to her now? Yes, Peter Parker. So unlike our supposed universe, that's complete opposite. You know, he's with Mary Jane. Real, real, real, real Gwen Stacy. Yeah. So so in this in that world,
00:51:17
Speaker
You know, he's married to Gwen, rich, famous, has a child, loving family, everything. He's got everything, right? So eventually, the whole House of M story line ends where the heroes have figured out this is not their real reality and they fight to change it back. And they do that. And Peter joins them because he knows it's the right thing. But then that means he loses everything he's always wanted. He goes so
00:51:42
Speaker
It goes back to the regular reality where he doesn't have a child. He's not retro famous. He's still like whatever shit job he had at that time. Right. You know, he's still in Mary Jane. She's fine, you know, but whatever. Well, let's not just skip over that. Mary Jane is a wonderful woman. Yes. She is a very intelligent, I want to say, go-getting businesswoman and supermodel actress and actress as well. Yes.
00:52:12
Speaker
Um, but anyways, so the what if story that they put in here was what if that reality sort of didn't change or like, you know, cause like what happens at the end is that he just loses all that and goes back to regular as a vengeance storyline. And that, that one was important for me anyway, because in, in, in, uh, if you read enough Spiderman comics, it's very rare that you see Peter Parker lose his shit.
00:52:39
Speaker
Like straight up, like he's got a shitty life. He always has, but he's always like joking around and just like, well, I guess I'll just keep on web swinging. Not this time. When that happened to him, he straight up tried to tear up a vengeance mansion. Like he was about to like really, people had to hold him down. Okay. So this particular issue. So what happens here is they're telling the story of what if at the end of that,
00:53:09
Speaker
when Stacey somehow, because of her connection to Peter and the love of that, did not get blinked out of reality when they get changed back to ours. So the first half of this book, and I'm gonna tell you right now, there are two stories in here. I had no idea first. There are two separate stories in this what if issue, okay? I mean, two, two, two, just- Two what ifs. Two what ifs. All right. Whoa. Yeah. So the first one, okay,
00:53:36
Speaker
It's actually kind of messed up. What happens is that Peter does end up back in our reality, but so does Gwen. So now he knows what he had. He remembers everything. And so now this whole story is about him coming. He knows exactly what happens.
00:54:00
Speaker
But he's married to Mary Jane now, but still remembers being married to Gwen in the life he had there. Oh, that's messed up. Exactly. It just sunk in, I think, at this side of the table at the same time. Yeah. OK. And so he hasn't said anything to MJ in this whole thing. And he's just, you know, she's his wife. And she's like, I know something's wrong with my husband. But like, what is he supposed to say? He's not talking about it.
00:54:28
Speaker
And he also knows that reality isn't a reality anymore. Exactly. Well, he knows that reality isn't a reality anymore because he's back in our world. But more importantly, it switches over to what is happening with Gwen, because now she's here too. Peter doesn't even know that yet. So Gwen is in modern day New York City, which she thinks is still her world, because it was pretty similar, except that the numbers in her phone work
00:54:59
Speaker
people other people live in her house no motherfucking pandemic sorry and so of course you don't have to throw science into the mix because she's here and is something in our world that is not supposed to exist things start to go wrong and the first person to pick up on it is Dr. Strange
00:55:21
Speaker
Oh, that's cool. He's on the wavelength for her. Like a, you know, like she could be breaking the walls of reality kind of thing and ruining everything. She's a variant. Yes. She's a variant. Whenever, whenever I'm stumbling, Martin speeds up. Oh my goodness. You know, and so basically,
00:55:44
Speaker
because it's causing ripples somehow, and this part doesn't make sense, okay? The ripples that are being caused by Gwen Stacy somehow continue to ruin Peter's life. It somehow directly affects him and causes so much unhappiness where people just kind of start dying and losing battles because she's present.
00:56:11
Speaker
So she's causing some kind of like reality, what, shift? Correctiveness or something? Problem. We're all having a visceral reaction to this because you already talk about a lot of times how shitty it is for him, like going through things and you talk about, alright, here's shitty and here's whippo waves of shitty and like more, you know? Well, I wonder, is her reality trying to break into his reality?
00:56:39
Speaker
I think so, to some extent, because in this one he loses Aunt May. Oh, okay. Stabbed to the heart? Yeah. Oh, I forgot something very important. In the House of Imworld, Uncle Ben stole a lot too. Oh, what's he up to? Living with them.
00:56:56
Speaker
Ryan numbers or something? He's just hanging out? No, it's Peter and Uncle Ben and Gwen and their child and they're all rich and famous. So when he gets, when he loses that, that's something else he loses too. So he also lost his child in this issue, in this video? Yes.
00:57:13
Speaker
And Gwen, I'm guessing she remembers and she's just like, where's my kid? You know, they actually didn't bring that part up. I think she's so bewildered by just being somewhere so unfamiliar. I mean, I don't have a kid, but I can only imagine if I woke up in a place and I didn't really understand what was going on and I'm checking my phone. The first thing I'm going to do is check my phone to make sure the phone numbers work before I check to see where my kid is.
00:57:42
Speaker
But you know what, at the same time too, they do mention that they were all together. So she's probably assuming that her son is with Peter. But this whole thing with Gwen also somehow results in the Green Goblin who was in prison being free and taking over like an evil gang of villains and they just start attacking everybody. And so now,
00:58:12
Speaker
Mary Jane dies. Oh, come on. So they switched it. Yes, Mary Jane dies and she's because she's trying to protect Peter. Of course she would. And so, you know, Peter's crying and losing his mind. And when is at this point now because of the help of Doctor Strange is like kind of witnessing all this. And so her decision is like, do I fight to stay here?
00:58:37
Speaker
Or do I do what's right and just tell Dr. Strange to send me back to my reality that no longer exists? I mean, from, from Dr. Strange's perspective, why give her a choice? And just, well, Alakazam her butt back to reality so that people aren't dying. I think, well, cause I think at the same time, Dr. Strange can also feel and see her pain, obviously. Is, is it like a, true.
00:59:04
Speaker
Is it like an alarm that goes like a sort of cosmic alarm to like Doctor Strange like that he picks up? Like cause I don't pick it like a psychic cosmic like
00:59:14
Speaker
I don't want to say force. He brings in too much stuff, but like the turbulence, you know, like something's going on. Yeah. And one of the panels here that right during the conversation with the Avengers, the art looks beautiful looking from afar. Oh, I have to go. It just disappears. And then he goes and finds Gwen and goes, you know, you're not supposed to be here. And that's exactly how that goes down. But yes, you're right. The art is pretty fantastic. And I will talk about that in a second. Um,
00:59:44
Speaker
Basically, because I want to get to what Gwen ultimately decides. What she decides is that she doesn't know how to fix this. Dr. Strange is now caught up fighting all these villains that have been caused by these ripples and all this. So she decides to jump off a cliff.
01:00:05
Speaker
So the story's really about, seems like it's really about her. It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it starts with Peter. It really involves more into what Gwen doing this piece. But Peter's present. And even in the presence of now holding Mary Jane, who's definitely passed in his arms, he sees this taking place. And just like the original story, dives after Gwen to save her. Always falling. Always falling. And... Yeah, that's a good point.
01:00:35
Speaker
Here's the thing. He sort of catches her with his body. So hard to catch. I'm a baseball fan here. It's kind of catching her. You know, he was able to shift his body and air so that he would land on the bottom. Yes. But in the end,
01:01:01
Speaker
Neither one of them make it and they both pass the dishes. They both die?
01:01:09
Speaker
That's what the story tells you. And that's the end of the story. That's the end of the story. So basically what they're saying is, the what-if story is that if Gwen has somehow made it into our reality, everybody's fucked. So Gwen is just a problem in general. So before I get to the second story on this, I want to know, what are your thoughts on? Could you have been strong enough to make that choice? Oh, no.
01:01:37
Speaker
The heroes always define the best of us. And, you know, the Joseph Campbell idea of a hero is someone who is willing to take those moves and the normal everyday person is not someone who makes those moves. It depends on the caring, though. You take Peter Parker's caring into account. You take Gwen's caring into account and how much they cared about each other.
01:02:04
Speaker
So sure, that makes sense to me, because he's a hero, she's heroic, and that was his first real love.
01:02:16
Speaker
I tend to the biggest the biggest issues that I pick up on because I'm a huge Spider-Man fan. Yeah, you know just just love it all and like the Gwen Stacy dying was like in my kid brain like not a real death but some sort of
01:02:35
Speaker
death like something like some sort of like real type of death the one the spooky parts i would i love the comedy i love the color the athleticism spartan all stuff the parts that always freak me out i think of the horror parts
01:02:50
Speaker
are the psychological schisms, right? Like the green goblin, the fractured personality. And like when there's a lot of those elements that they start to twist on emotionally, I think that's why Spider-Man like a lot of like that emotional story like it kind of grabs you in there and scares you and like delights you that he might win.
01:03:11
Speaker
Can I dovetail him? Yeah, yeah, please go. That's what I had. So bringing this up, and this is interesting about the Conan story too, is like both of these stories actually happened later on in the MCU. Remember One More Day? Oh, yeah. He remembers everything, but he gets everything that he wants, and he remembers all the stuff that happened before. And so it's interesting that these issues, when was that published? This one.
01:03:44
Speaker
And this is Yeah Yeah, so it was before that so I'm wondering like what if is like is it like a playground to Generate better, right, you know more solid ideas Well, I've looked at the early what what is is like they are like
01:04:06
Speaker
like there's such a sophistication to multiverse now that i'm like you read these things like we're just dissatisfied consumers like yeah i i yeah i view the i view the early what ifs as just like them just trying to have some fun with something and then just make one shot and
01:04:22
Speaker
No continuity, no nothing out whatsoever. I didn't take him seriously as a kid. No, as a kid, but the thing is, I take him seriously now, but as a kid, I was like, here, that's not real. That type of thing. But when you get into these more, I would say, modern era, especially when it's the big event, what-ifs, it's almost like they had two ways they could have gone with this.
01:04:48
Speaker
And they're like, well, we went this way, but we still want to show what could have happened. Because like I remember reading Avengers AVX, Avengers versus. Yeah. What if I remember when that that trade, I was all excited because it was all about that AVX stuff. And it just read like, oh, what if we just flip the coin and went the other way?
01:05:10
Speaker
And it honestly wasn't that good. Just reverse everything and run it through the reverse AI and kick it out. Yeah, it was pretty much, you know, instead of, and this isn't my issue, but it was, instead of the Avengers stopping Hope Summers, the adopted grandchild of Scott, Cyclops,
01:05:36
Speaker
from getting the Phoenix Force, what if she did just get it? Right. What if the other thing happened? What if the other thing happened? Yeah, yeah. What if this did happen? And it dovetailed and just went off the rails. And by the end of it, I was there. I think I threw it. I think I threw the trade. I was like, this is stupid. What if Spider-Man liked chocolate? Yeah. You've been betrayed. I was betrayed. I was betrayed. And this is me going on a tangent because
01:06:06
Speaker
Get it out. Anybody that knows me knows I'm a big Scott Summers Jean Grey-like person. And by the end of this What If Avengers vs. X-Men, Jean Grey at the time in the comics was dead. The Phoenix Force resurrects her body as her.
01:06:24
Speaker
they end up destroying the world and rebuild, and at the last two panels are her and Logan, Wolverine, they're going to now be the new Adam and Eve and repopulate the world. And I'm just like, what the fuck? That's not good. I mean, that makes sense.
01:06:40
Speaker
as a wolverine fan. Ethan was just waiting to take out the adamatium, adamatium claws. He'd been waiting. All right, you got it out. We saw what was going. Good job. It was terrible. But anyway, that's not mine.
01:07:01
Speaker
Sean, you surprised us, but this is a special issue. This is too audacious. You told us a spectacular tale on the first one. Well, you know, actually the second one is equally as interesting. Really? Okay. Because something I left out that kind of caters to both, and I left it on purpose because it's mentioned more in the second half of this. In the regular House of M story line, there is a point where Peter
01:07:29
Speaker
Because that world is ruled by mutants, you know, people just assume he's a mutant. He's actually not. We all know this. Right. But when he is outed as not being an actual mutant, he loses all of his fame and fortune and is kind of ousted. And he kind of like loses his mind over that. Like he's, you know, his life has changed and all that. So at some point, he kind of snaps.
01:07:57
Speaker
and takes on the persona of the Green Goblin. Wow, okay. All right, so that's mentioned in the regular pop song. Now keep in mind, this is the what if now, which is funny, because like at no point did they ask a regular question. It's just what if they just something. You're thrown in the middle of the scene, right? Like French cinema here. Action is moving, you're thrown in.
01:08:24
Speaker
Now this is, again, this one actually heavily involves Gwen, but in a different aspect. So I think the what if question is, what if Gwen stays, survives, period, right? All right, so but this time, when the world has changed back to normal, and he's here with our world, Gwen is there, she comes back, or she survives, but so did his son. Hmm, all right? And so the scene starts,
01:08:52
Speaker
with Peter and Mary Jane and Aunt May in their apartment and he's like cleaning the house and preparing dinner and he's telling them like we got some special guests coming to dinner but he hasn't told them who and he opens his door and it's Gwen and his son and he sits them out of the building. Sorry. That's a point. That's a point. That's a point.
01:09:25
Speaker
I'm gonna start it with, after I've given a description of what has happened. Well, with the goblin. With the goblin, and go right into story two. Alright everybody, we're back in. We'll project towards the microphone center. Sean, you're in. Take us on the second story of What If.
01:09:49
Speaker
Right, so like I said, keep in mind it's important to remember that in the regular House of M story line at some point Peter has snapped and taken on the persona of the Green Goblin. Now, jump into story two, it just kind of starts.
01:10:06
Speaker
Peter, Mary Jane and Aunt May are in their apartment. Peter is running around frantically and it looks like he's kind of cleaning the place up and maybe preparing dinner at the same time for a special guest. Mary Jane and Aunt May have no idea who this is coming to dinner. Doorbell rings, Peter runs to get it. This is another winter story about Gwen Stacy. Gwen Stacy.
01:10:34
Speaker
The special guest coming to dinner is Gwen Stacy and Peter's son from the alternate timeline. Good lord. Because now they have both survived, and they are in our world. And so Peter has arranged this dinner to tell his current wife, MJ, and his guests. No. No way. BTW. Hey, honey. Hey, honey. Here's my honey. Remember that trip to New Orleans?
01:11:04
Speaker
So you're not going to believe this? No. So yeah. She's coming back. Go ahead. Can you imagine sitting down, trying to explain to your wife, like, so listen, I was in an alternate dimension. And I was completely happy and married another woman, and I got a child. This is how you get out of doing the dishes. The child's name. The child's name is whatever. Yeah.
01:11:41
Speaker
As I would expect, the writer has also written it in a format that, like, neither one of them like this bullshit. Nobody's asked. You know, Gwen is, you know, trying to be polite. In images, it's like, every second, it's like, bitch, get out. Don't make you eat that macaroni salad in the worst way possible. And so, that ends poorly, right? And then the story continues on where
01:11:58
Speaker
But yeah, that's what this dinner's for.
01:12:10
Speaker
You know, him and I guess he somehow smoothed things over with MJ, but also has kept Gwen in his life. So the next part of the story is Peter meeting Gwen at the park to hang out with her and his son. I thought you were going to say the next part of the story is Peter getting murdered. The cut scene, an innuendo scene, you know what happens. And Gwen's all like, yo, you're late. It's probably because of MJ, right? And he's like, no, I just know what's left. And it's basically like he's having an affair.
01:12:40
Speaker
But yes, it's a Paulie relationship. So at this point it's yeah But like, you know, he's there for his look for his little dude He's with Gwen and they're like, this isn't gonna you know, this is awkward and blah blah It didn't get very close to kissing. Mm-hmm cuz like this is the first love of his life He has all of his memories of being happily married to this woman But also all the memories of being happily married to the woman he lives in this reality with so he's in a hell of his own mind and
01:13:08
Speaker
Yeah. And then Aunt May, being the Aunt May that she is and quite intuitive, just shows up at the parking lot. Hey, I know what you're doing, motherfucker. Oh. I know what you're doing. And she gave him, I love, I think my favorite panel here is Aunt May giving his ass to Stank Eye. Yeah. You read, will you? Oh yeah. Will you read what she says? I'm just very curious what she says. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. She says, Peter, dear, what on earth are you doing? What? What do you mean?
01:13:38
Speaker
I mean, you can't possibly go on like this. You're smart enough to know that it isn't fair to Gwen or MJ, or even to yourself in the end. I hate to say this because I love both of them as much as you do, but you need to make a choice. Okay. Is she putting the smack down? Yeah. All right. But she said it was Stankface. She was Stankface. Stankface smack down. years of frustration. You know.
01:14:03
Speaker
I think we're moving around in time, but frustrated. I mean, if this was written a couple years ago, it's not a bad situation if they're all okay with it and they're all adults. Nobody's okay with this. Nobody's okay with it. No. Nobody's okay with this yet.
01:14:21
Speaker
At least they didn't go with the male fantasy scenario. I got two wives. That kind of bullshit. No, don't go back to... That was like 2017. Pretty come. That's still happening again. Who do you think he is? Come in. Yeah, it's tough. I've existed in a different world for a little while. Thank you. While he's at the park, here's something interesting.
01:14:49
Speaker
Aunt May gets a call from MJ. It was like, I've been trying to reach Peter all day. He left his phone at home, blah, blah, blah. He goes home, and it turns out that MJ has been attacked by the Green Goblin. So it's just like, if Peter's like, that's impossible, Norman's in jail. Again, like he was here, you can see their apartment is disheveled, some things have gone down.
01:15:16
Speaker
But he's like, okay, I'll go investigate. And so he goes to the prison and he verifies that Norman Osborne is still in jail. He's right there laying down on his mat. Visual verification. He's in his cell.
01:15:28
Speaker
And then, I guess, because you need to move forward in the story, they go to, I guess, what could be months later, and it's their anniversary. And I mean, Mary Jane and Peter, not Gwen and whatever. And so he's trying to make it up to Angie at this point, because he's like, yeah, I've been fucking up.
01:15:49
Speaker
Did she just yell at him and say, you think? He wrenched this special cabin out in the woods somewhere. And she's like, oh, is this the anniversary gift? This is so sweet. And he's like, yeah, that's part of it. But more is the gift that's on the table for you. And he's like, go get it. And she goes to open this box.
01:16:19
Speaker
It's a torn up, it's a torn up, crumpled up Spider-Man costume. And so she's like, you know, what the fuck is this, you know? And she turns around and there's Peter dressed as the Green Goblin. Oh, awesome. I kind of dig that. I kind of dig that. That's scary, man. Yeah. That's cool. Oh, it gets, it gets a little worse. Yeah. And so he's like, surprise, you know? And she's like, wait, you know, it's like, you know, he's like,
01:16:49
Speaker
You know, she's running now at this point, and she's like, what are you doing? Like, I don't want to be murdered. You do say that, strangely, when you're about to be murdered. I don't want to be murdered. I'm just letting you know. Just to clarify, it's not my preference what's going to happen. Whoever wrote this second story did a really brilliant thing, too. Peter Esther Green Goblin has now trapped MJ with spider webs, Esther Green Goblin, on the wall. And he's monologuing to her. And he says, you know,
01:17:18
Speaker
this is the house that i actually woke up in when i came back from the other reality oh because it was the house that him and gwyn lived in oh that's pretty awesome right yeah i like that and so at this point a little memento in there he's trapped her and now he's got like this the goblin glider getting ready to smash her against the wall and as he's like getting ready to set it off he passes himself in a mirror and sees his own face and then kind of like
01:17:49
Speaker
has a moment of clarity and was like, what the fuck am I doing? And as the glider is getting ready to smash Mary Jane, he saves her at the last moment and jumps in front of it and it kills him.
01:18:00
Speaker
Cool. All right. I dig that. I dig that. That's not the end of the story. Oh, no. The end of the story ends with. Is that what? It's not the end of the story. There's more. There's more. The end of the story is actually you find out that this is all a retelling on a computer by his now teenage son. OK, that's cool.
01:18:27
Speaker
talking about how his dad still managed to die a hero. I like that. That's really cool. And it's him and Gwen, she's there. But he's also getting ready to publish the story and he's worried about being exposed because he has Spider-Man powers. I was wondering. Everybody's gonna know that his dad is Spider-Man. Is it for the Daily Bugle and Ben Yorick? No, it isn't. Man, it doesn't go that far? No.
01:18:52
Speaker
That's the worst. But that's it. That's awesome. I want that extra step, right? I want that extra step. It gave us a lot. That one volume, two stories, Sean, there's a lot there. I like it. I feel as far as the depth. It's a very... It started with the first two stories. Three stories we got.
01:19:20
Speaker
Conan feels very paltry given some of these. This feels kind of heavy, heavy, heavy. Yeah. Right. Well, you know, and I think that's why I chose this one because like I said, the original House of M storyline with Spider-Man was heavy to begin with. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, anytime I think, is it my
01:19:45
Speaker
Maybe it's my assumption, but I feel like every really solid memorable Spider-Man story ends with some kind of mental trauma, unfortunately. But he's always put through the wringer to some degree. You know, he's always just kind of like... You know, there's definitely fun stories like Spider Island was cool, but it wasn't, you know...
01:20:05
Speaker
People aren't even talking about that. It wasn't like the last hunt, Craven's last hunt, which was like the penultimate Spider-Man story when I was a kid, you know. That's badass. It's one of the best comics out there and every time Craven comes back nowadays I'm always like, you know, I can't. He's not there. That whole J.M. Demadeus story is the thing and I can't deal with this canon.
01:20:31
Speaker
But I feel like that's that's the my point that I feel like that's the crux of really it's cool that that last story I really dug I like the ending with the kid writing about it. I think that's cool And the whole reality bending idea of like if you're a hero, would you do this? Yeah, if you're not even a hero if you're just it would you do this, right? I'm just gonna say that brings up wasn't there wasn't there? Mark Millar
01:21:01
Speaker
uh marvel 1985 where it was like marvel like this kid brought in he's either transported to the marvel universe or he brought the marvel universe from the comics alive and it was like this big morality thing but sounds familiar i don't remember it yeah yeah yeah didn't have alex ross i think alice ross did at least the covers yeah um gosh yeah yeah there is a lot of that i mean honestly i do like any of the marvel stories that will
01:21:32
Speaker
go a little bit further than make you that find a way to tie to an actual reality something that you can really shoot something you can really do and marvel is really good at that yeah that's always been that's always been uh the the thing um
01:21:49
Speaker
Do you hear that? The thing? I really want
Punisher as a S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent
01:21:57
Speaker
this to be an open forum for all the stories that we've encountered, but we've got to get into story number three. Not story number three, but issue number three with an intro. Who do we have up next?
01:22:11
Speaker
uh... on the what if we got martin up next and uh... very excited i will say uh... before martin speaks that uh... his uh... issue i had a very visceral reaction just the proposition uh... that was placed in front of me so i without revealing anything i want to tell you i had a visceral reaction to the just the title of your issue go ahead martin so so my my issue uh... is what if the punisher
01:22:40
Speaker
became an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. Oh my god. And I mean, anybody who knows Frank Castle, you can probably guess where this is gonna go. Not well for S.H.I.E.L.D. Yeah! So, yeah, we start off, basically, Frank Castle's telling a story of, you know,
01:23:04
Speaker
It's that almost like normal action thing where he starts saying, oh, I'm the Punisher. I wasn't always like this. You know, I wasn't always this flying. The first panelist, him flying in this almost banshee costume with a with a desert eagle in his hand. And he's like, I joined up with shield, but I didn't always used to be with shield.
01:23:28
Speaker
Okay, I know what you stick used to have to hunt bad guys and you never say bad guys in this issue They owe he always calls them hoods hoods. No, that's plus He calls him hoods. Yeah. Hey, okay. Hey
01:23:43
Speaker
Just hoods, like a term is like a new term, maybe to... Yeah, I'll read some of his terrific dialogue from this, yes. Yeah, give us a couple snippets as you go along. Oh, I was, yeah, as we go along, yes. Hoods, okay, sorry, okay. Yeah, I mean, so this was actually written by Chuck Dixon. Oh, yeah, okay. Robin, Robin? Nightwing? Nightwing? Yeah.
01:24:10
Speaker
So you get to the next page. It's a big double spread of him flying. And you realize it's this Hydra island that he calls it. The big enchilada. Hydra. I found it. I'm going to take it down. The big enchilada? The big enchilada. There's no ambiguity whether this is the target here. So what's the being in cheese of this problem?
01:24:41
Speaker
So, so he goes into his past, talking about, oh, you know, I used to just be a vigilante, you know, shooting up hoods, but I didn't wear a mask. And he realizes, you know, sooner or later, this this whole vigilante, me just killing hoods is not going to last forever. And a smoke bomb jumps in, gets thrown through this window and he gets knocked out, which to me, I'm just like,
01:25:11
Speaker
That seems like the laziest way to take out the Punisher, but, you know, it doesn't. Whack. This whole time. We just needed a smoke bomb. We just needed a smoke bomb. Well, Frank wakes up, and there's some weird editorial issues. The first bubble on this page of Frank Castle waking up says, I ain't St. Peter to answer your first question. OK. And the Punisher said, my throat hurts from the gas, so I'm still alive.
01:25:42
Speaker
Let's cut to the bone. And then we realize this is Nick Fury. Okay. We've been watching you. We is shield. And you, and frankly, castle, you remind me of me.
01:25:59
Speaker
Which I don't see, but, you know... Frankly Castle? Frankly Castle? You know, back in my day, I used to murder on the streets. Did he say, actually, wait... Wait, hold up. Did he say Frankly Castle? Yeah, Frankly, space, or, comma, castle, Frankly.
01:26:15
Speaker
Mr. Dixon, sir, you're on trial. It's good. The editor's on vacation. That's a summer issue. Look up that date. That thing's freaking July. I never saw an issue that was released. I'll get to I'll get to the get to the year. Was it the editor in chief month? They were on vacation. This is an editor's. Nobody looked at that thing.
01:26:38
Speaker
Sorry. So basically as Nick Fury does, he gives Frank a choice. You either join up with SHIELD and do as I say, and you get to take down the top of the top bad guys, I'll give you your own team, you can have all the weapons you want, but you have to follow my rules. And for some reason, Nick Fury thinks that's gonna work out in his favor.
01:27:06
Speaker
This is Frank Castle we're talking about. So like once you kick the boat out into the lake, it's going to go wherever you thought it would go. Right. No problem. I got you started. Have fun. Report back. We've been watching you, Castle. We haven't really been paying attention. Watch. Yeah. So he explains to him and he says basically, you know, we get we get him still explaining this for two pages. What's going to happen?
01:27:33
Speaker
and you get down towards the bottom and I love this, Nick Fury says, let me put it to you this way, pal. You join up and you get total immunity for everything you've done. You pass this on and it's life sentence in a federal lockup. Now if I know anything about Frank Castle, he can get out of the federal lockup. So that doesn't seem like that much of a threat. And then this nice little editor thing happens.
01:28:00
Speaker
And I'll make sure it's hard time. You capiche? All right, now I'll get into my territory. You capiche? Now, I'm from the West Coast. But I know that it's not usually you capiche. It's just capiche. I'll show you what it is.
01:28:23
Speaker
Capiche, right? I go up to you. You're having trouble understanding me, right? Hey, knock it off. Chill out, buddy. Capiche? That's it? That's it? No, not. But to Colonel McPhery. Do you capiche it? Are you capiche-ating what I'm putting across? It's no, hey, let's not devalue this. This is Descartes.
01:28:47
Speaker
This is Descartes, I think therefore I am stuff. I capiche, I capiche, therefore I am. I think it's more like a la carte. I think it's more like a la carte with the English language and the other languages that they decided to throw in there and say, you know, I think it's a little bit more of smorgasbord, if you will. Also, I know that I'm reading Nick Fury with a New York accent.
01:29:12
Speaker
But I never picture him that way. Even when I was reading this, in my head, in my head, it was totally in New Yorker. Oh yeah, 100%. See, in my head, it's always that amazing Spider-Man.
01:29:25
Speaker
when he was on the animated series. Yeah, when he sounded like the head of the X-Head of the NRA from Planet of the Apes. Heston. Heston. That's how I remember it. I didn't realize the NRA was in the Planet of the Apes. I understood that thread because I think we all did. I mean, total shits to me, but anyway, yes. That's the voice in my head, but anyway.
01:29:50
Speaker
So Frank Castle joins up and he's ecstatic. He gets to blow shit up. He gets to do whatever he wants. He gets his own... He gets to choose his own team. He starts, you know, doing his punishing thing. And we get on to probably page six or seven and I actually had to ask our good friend Ethan here who the hell this villain was because I did not recognize him. Okay.
01:30:22
Speaker
But I'm trying to just, oh yes, on the same page, I had to pause and go, did I just read what I read? Okay. One of those pages. One of those pages. And it says, and this is, this was after Nick Fury or Frank joins up, says Fury was, Fury was right about the ordinance. It was everything I'd ever wanted. And then some, all the toys, uh, no more taking down street corner, MOOCs,
01:30:52
Speaker
holding a nickel and dime stashes. I was like, what? What did I just read? I'm going to explain this to you after that. I have some insight on this dialogue for you. OK. And then so I saw that and I was like, when was this written? So I go to the front of the page. Nice little credit section. What if volume two, number 57, January 1994.
01:31:22
Speaker
94. 94? Yeah, they're, they're putting MOOCs, MOOCs and hoods, and hoods in a, in a Marvel comic. I'm going to explain that multiple times. I know the answer to that. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get there. Okay. I want him to finish. Yes. So, yes. And so I asked her good for needles. Who is this villain? And the villain turns out to be the yellow claw that he's putting, taking down.
01:31:50
Speaker
Oh, I've never heard of this villain. I thought it was the Mandarin or maybe Fu Manchu yellow claw man. He did. Yeah, I'm not surprised by that. Okay. That's mad racist. Yes. Yes, it is. Well, what's weird about it is the real questionable part can be creating like a one off reservoir of
01:32:19
Speaker
stereotype or name. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to taint a character that's around now because I know this is iffy or something. I'm going to attribute to like this, this one right here and like ramp it up for irony like that kind of weird. Yeah. I'm I yeah, I'm grasping without the full knowledge of the material, but we'll get back. So yes. So so basically, you know, Frank Castle finds finds this villain.
01:32:48
Speaker
And he tracks him down and he's saying, you know, he's talking to himself over this mission. He's like, I'm going to do what I'm going to do. And he blows the guy away. And he's got this really cool. Most of these most of these panels in this comic are very constrained.
01:33:04
Speaker
You know, this was early 90s, so they didn't really break out of the corners very often. Yeah, yeah. But this one panel has the blackened blood splattered across outside of the borders, which I thought was a very interesting choice. That is. I like it right off the bat. You're thinking that, at least in this point, it looks like an expressionist splatter paint.
01:33:31
Speaker
It's our art. This is Punisher, and we've tapped into art at least momentarily, right? Yeah, and so they get back and Nick Fury's pissed because he just killed a guy he was gonna question. Find out where the bigger guy was or what his plans were for the evil doings. Yep. But he's Frank Castle. You knew what you were signing up. You don't get nuance. No! How many times do I have to explain this to people?
01:33:55
Speaker
What I really like. I'm shocked. Again, we've been watching you. Yeah, we know what you do. We think we can change you. Your behavior doesn't vary, nor has it ever varied. Right. Something I did notice, though, too. His entire team, Frank Castle,
01:34:13
Speaker
his entire team of squads all have the Punisher logo all over their uniform. And on the cover, you even see them walking into a shield helicarrier somewhat. And each one of them, on top of the shield logo on their shoulder, it says Punisher. Not Punishers, just Punisher. So his team gets their own code name after him. No, no. Yet they still need to follow Shield's little protocols.
01:34:41
Speaker
I mean, if I was holding on to the story, I'm breaking off right there. It just doesn't work for me. I'm jumping there, but carry it out. Yeah. So Nick Fury says, no, you can't do this. None of this. You're going to do this now. He's taking them off his team. You screw up one more time. You're off the force, you know, sort of things, right? There's some bazookas. Yeah. Right?
01:35:08
Speaker
So he's like, you're not, you're not following us. You're, you're just being a follower now. So they go to, uh, to take out, go to Matterport, uh, to take down some other bad, high profile, bad guys. And one of his sidekicks, which not really sidekicks is second in command, maybe.
01:35:30
Speaker
is called Quarterman, Quartermane. Is that a? Quartermane. I'm not familiar. I didn't recognize it either. I might be thinking of something else, but I picked that one. So they drop in silently. They take, they, they arrest or contain all of these bad guys. They, they're all accounted for and Punisher, Frank Castle just goes,
01:35:54
Speaker
Hey, look, I'm following orders. Everyone's hearing accounted for. But that Coke and all the drugs and everything that's behind us, Fury didn't say anything about keeping that. So he bombs it. Cool. OK. OK. So he's trying to do his own little thing, right? And then all of a sudden, he goes, I hear screaming. And he goes over to a container, slavers. These mooks are slavers. Wow.
01:36:24
Speaker
So wait, in the container, there were women. And Frank Castle didn't know that. So he's burning, because nobody told him. Right, right, right, right, right. And the slavers? So that's the choice of the words he uses. Yes. So he's blown up the stockpile that he thought was just drugs. Right. Turns out there's people in there, mostly women. And they're surviving. So he saves them. He heard them screaming in the containers. He saved them.
01:36:56
Speaker
I love how one of his military buddies calls him Skipper like two times in here. I'm like, who calls Frank Castle Skipper? He's not going to live much longer. What if universe, I guess.
01:37:14
Speaker
So Quartermain gets mad. He's like, you can do this. It's not just your butt that's going to get it. It's everyone, blah, blah. And Frank Castle's carrying one of these people. And he hands it off. Quartermain says, this is espionage castle. It's not cops and robbers. You have to see the big picture. Sometimes you have to deal with the bottom feeders to catch the sharks. And I like this one scene.
01:37:43
Speaker
Frank Castle was carrying this, this, you know, sex slave, essentially, not going to say that in the confidence, the sex slave hands it off to Quarterman and just goes, explain that to her and walks off. Yeah. So of course, advocating any moral responsibility whatsoever. Furies piss and he says, you know what, you're done.
01:38:04
Speaker
This is it. You're on like guard duty. So Dum Dum Dugan is now the leader of this team and takes him to supposedly Hydra's big base. The whole enchilada. The whole enchilada. The whole enchilada. It's sour cream. Well, they stepped into a trap and everyone dies except for Frank. Even Dum Dum. Damn. Dugan's dead. Everyone assumes Frank's dead.
01:38:34
Speaker
Three weeks later, he shows back up in New York and visits his old buddy, Micro, who's gonna hack into S.H.I.E.L.D. and get him some information. So Frank then, so apparently S.H.I.E.L.D.'s HR department isn't very good because after three weeks of being MIA, they didn't just erase his credentials. So he gets into a S.H.I.E.L.D. complex. Yeah, no problem. And takes a jet.
01:39:01
Speaker
No problem. No additional security level. No additional? No. No. He takes this jet and he's going to, he's going to go, go to Hydra's, the Hydra Island, the big enchilada. So he gets there, he lands, he jumps out with his, with his, with his banshee looking flight suit, shooting down Hydra agents as he's on the way down, he gets down and he just starts blasting everyone away and he knows
01:39:30
Speaker
This is it. I have lived and I die. I lived and died as I wanted. I have only one regret that I will never see my wife and children again. But they're together and that's enough. The thunder rumbles from far below. It's over now. It's finally all.
01:39:57
Speaker
And this is after he decided, I'm just gonna drop a bomb into their nuclear power plant on Hydra Island and blow the whole thing to smithereens. So, did his wife and kid never get killed in this? No, they died. He was the Punisher for a while. And Nick Fury's just like, you know what, that guy that doesn't follow any rules? I want that guy to follow my rules. Well, I want to jump in and say right now, my...
01:40:25
Speaker
Gut reaction to this issue has been validated by everything mine No, I said no to the beginning. Yeah, and I you know, I hung on I there's some point in there. I said no more I hung in there and it's fine. I said no more but from the beginning I said no I said no from the beginning doesn't work. None of this works No, so real quick. I want to tap into something Some of y'all may or may not know
01:40:51
Speaker
and this might be good for the listeners. So when Martin said that this was written by Chuck Dixon, it all became clear to me. Because that dude is an asshole. Chuck Dixon, who, like you said, also wrote Nightwing. If you go back and read Nightwing around the 90s, you will see a lot of mentions of hoods and mooks. And let me tell you, all of the villains of Chuck Dixon books are black.
01:41:20
Speaker
or of some person of color or let's just say
01:41:27
Speaker
When initially reading that, it would be easy, you could easily make the assumption that like, oh, this is written by a racist motherfucker, right? Reading this, I thought this was like, I thought this was like the 70s. Well, okay. And I thought, okay, it's a little, you know, it's not okay now, but you know, they got away, everything was different. Things were different. They weren't okay. You were shocked by 1994. But when I saw 1994, I was like, are you serious? Well, yeah, because that's who he was in 1994. And let me tell you this, he didn't stop being that guy. And let me put, here's the added perspective to that.
01:41:55
Speaker
Chuck's Chuck Dixon is a member of comics That's all you had to say exactly. Yeah, it was like big putting it all together. I was like, oh he's always Okay. Yeah. Yeah I this this this comic reminded me like I saw it and I was like this can't be like obviously this isn't gonna work out one because it was only one shot and if it actually worked out there would have been more than one and then two
01:42:19
Speaker
I've previously read the What If Frank Castle became Captain America, and that didn't work out either. Why would it? It was basically an alternate origin of Nuke.
01:42:38
Speaker
Essentially the biggest problem I had with the I've had with Punisher and I think you know anybody who tries to write for Punisher has a fundamental problem The fundamental problem is that the approach like humans are sophisticated thinkers it is
01:42:57
Speaker
That place contains badness. Blow up badness is the thought process. Badness is there so like drugs are manufactured. Well like 45 people like trying to like make a living like blown up everything like drugs are blown up like it's just this moral
01:43:18
Speaker
Negation of something. Well, I think so for me the punisher has always been about and and you're gonna laugh when I say this because it's so obvious mental instability
01:43:29
Speaker
It's always been about his trauma. It's always been about his PTSD. And the show, the Punisher series, actually, I mean the first season, I haven't watched the second season, the first season really dealt with that in interesting ways. That is what the show became about. It didn't become about
01:43:50
Speaker
Here's this guy who's cool because he uses an M16 to blow up a bunch of cocaine. You know what I'm saying? No, and it was it was a lot more in depth. It was a lot more interesting than that than what Chuck Dixon wrote. And speaking of the show, it doesn't always happen, but I probably would have seen that if I could get past every episode reminding me that his kids were killed, his wife and kid were killed every 30 seconds in that first season.
01:44:19
Speaker
I mean that's part of the trauma, and I get that, I get that it's like we don't need Spider-Man's origin again, we don't need Batman's origin again. I can deal with a Spider-Man or Batman origin once every four years, but every hour? It's a different story. But think about it though, that was the whole point, because that never left him. That's his whole trauma case. So it would be the thing on the forefront of his mind every minute of every day.
01:44:45
Speaker
I, with the thing is where I have with the Punisher stuff. And like I said, that's a tough sled in New York. Martin had Hercules' task here. I mean, we could have fun. We could bounce around. We could work off things. This is you sticking to getting through. You haven't heard Ethan's. And we haven't heard Ethan's. But the one thing I wanted to say about the Punisher bit is I believe, just from things that I'm hearing,
01:45:13
Speaker
I've heard and I'm suspicious that the racism is even more pernicious in ways that I started to hear nothing and also you can't escape the fact right now that the only superhero logo you would see in the January 6th riots would be Punisher freaking logos and there's some sort of racist
01:45:33
Speaker
Even if you don't buy into the co-optation or something like that, there's something racist, there's something nihilistic and nasty. Because they bought into the idea of the cool guy with the M16 and the cool skull motif. Distributing justice. Yeah, distributing their version of... Right, and there's a whole article I read about, you know, the... I forget his name right now. Kyle, the American sniper.
01:46:03
Speaker
Is it written? Is it written? I forget the name, the last name. Yeah, I can't remember the right name. Kyle's something. But I mean, how he kind of hit him in his squad, like really took the Punisher logo and then it just spread like wildfire over in, you know, in Iraq, in Afghanistan during the war. It's still going on. And then, of course, like the cops saw it and they just adopted it. And it always makes me chuckle at first. And then it frustrates me when I see
01:46:31
Speaker
the amalgamation imagery of the very distinctive Punisher logo mixed with the Blue Lives Matter American flag. And I'm just like, you really don't understand it. Punisher, yeah, he's cool. He's not a hero. He's an 80s action movie that never grew up. Right.
01:47:02
Speaker
It tells me somebody that literally just saw, tough guy with gun, blows up thing that says it was bad. And that's the surface layer of what they did. That's the moral universe and the rest of us are like, we just simply inhabit. Conan was trying to grasp with more, getting more religious, that I'll wait him. I'll wait him incredibly.
01:47:30
Speaker
highly problematic. Punisher the premise was very difficult for him to get in 1994. Always a complicated area for time for comics to think about in the 90s. When I was a kid,
01:47:49
Speaker
And you didn't have as much of the multiverses. I think there was a credibility question. And I think the fact that they played on it is just a way to play on it. It seemed fake and it just seemed like a simple storytelling. It's like wondering if you took this crossroad rather than that crossroad.
01:48:08
Speaker
And I don't know now if it's whether the consumers, the fans, and thinking about Canon, and thinking about a properly set up multiverse, or if there are more than one multiverse, how they react, Martin, yeah. But here's the funny thing
Shang-Chi's Moral Journey
01:48:21
Speaker
about that. Like, you mentioned this, I don't know if it was recorded or not, but you're mentioning, like, as a kid, you just mentioned it. Yeah, we're rolling, we're back in. How you discounted it, like, because there was no, like, real multiverse, or, like, anything like that. But the early what-ifs?
01:48:35
Speaker
all started with the watcher being like
01:48:39
Speaker
in this version of Earth, this happens. And they don't do that anymore. I have yet to see the Watchers show up and go, hey, you know how this happens in the 616. Here's what it would have happened. They brought it back in some of the later ones. The Watcher? In the ones from about five years ago, the Watchers. OK, so probably around the secret wars, 3.0 or whatever. All that stuff, yeah.
01:49:07
Speaker
The Watcher, and for the listeners, and we're deep into this, but the Watcher is to seize past, future, possibility, cosmic god-like type of creature. I mean, people are watching... Marvel Universe? Loki? I mean, what's the difference between the Watchers and the Time Bureau? That's weird. That's a whole other topic. Alright, let's stop digging that.
01:49:35
Speaker
Let's put Ethan on. Let's put Ethan on. Ethan, we have gone through some trails here. A lot of material. Very happy Ethan Slaton, guest of
01:49:55
Speaker
Something rather than nothing in the early shows and you can see that the show has really moved to high-quality upper academic cutting-edge Research, then what the fuck am I doing here? And we were trying to cut deep into what-if questions on something rather than nothing you have a what-if question for us and we're
01:50:20
Speaker
Dan, we're ready. I think we're ready. Yeah, I have a what-if question. It's, what if Shang-Chi, master of kung fu, fought on the side of Fu Manchu? So, initially I picked this up because I'm like, I love Shang-Chi. I've loved Shang-Chi since I was a kid. It's one of the first comics my dad got for me. Really cool, right? I have no idea why this what-if question exists because I don't know a lot about Fu Manchu until I read this issue. And that was kind of the cool part.
01:50:47
Speaker
He's got the movie coming up and everything, and so it kind of informed me a little bit. The Shang-Chi movie coming up, yeah. And so essentially, the whole deal is that Fu Manchu, as problematic as a character as it is, I'm gonna say that, he is Shang-Chi's father. Okay.
01:51:08
Speaker
So, just knowing that, it kind of makes me go, oh, okay, so this question is a little bit more interesting. And then it dives into explaining how Shang-Chi started, and Shang-Chi started as a member of Fu Manchu's warriors, but he always questioned his dad.
01:51:35
Speaker
because his dad says, okay, I need you. So since the 1900s, since the Boxer Rebellion, Fu Manchu had a group of warriors that were going up against the Allied forces. So America, Britain, Russia, I think even Japan maybe fought against China.
01:52:01
Speaker
Yeah, imperial issues between Britain and China. Right, right, right. So, and Fu Manchu in this fictional history is supposed to have been a part of that, and he's mad that the Allies won.
01:52:15
Speaker
And so his goal is to turn it around and then destroy the allies. And so his way of fooling his son, fooling Shang-Chi into killing a general for him, which happens in the issue, is essentially to say, well,
01:52:42
Speaker
It's the Buddhist nature. It's our nature. It's the Kung Fu way. And Shang-Chi is kind of like, I mean, you're my dad. This is all about honor. So it's all heavily, uh, Asian coded in a lot of ways. And it's problematic in a way that it's written by, I'm assuming. So the writer being, uh, Doug Moench.
01:53:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Is a white individual. Capiche. Capiche. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's some problems already.
01:53:18
Speaker
But the story is that Shang-Chi was going to go, he does go and he tries, he goes to America, goes to, pardon me, goes to England to assassinate this old general who is an old foe of Fu Manchu's and he stumbles on to this other general who
01:53:46
Speaker
gets him to stop, gets him to think about what he's gonna do, because, you know, he says, why are you doing this? And Shang-Chi says, because this is evil, I'm destroying evil for the greater good. And the bodyguard general says, evil, I'll tell you about evil, and kind of talks about his dad, about Shang-Chi's dad, Fu Manchu, and Fu Manchu,
01:54:29
Speaker
A man with the intellect of any three men of genius. The dialogue's a little monkey. A little weird. A little bunched up and a little heated and a little racist, as we will say. He was ancient then, older than I am now, but by 1932 he had developed the elixir vitae, the oil of life, to prolong his vitality. If anything, he has grown younger since then.
01:54:39
Speaker
He says I'll tell you about Fu Manchu.
01:54:54
Speaker
agelessness has freed him to work toward his single goal domination of the world by his cefan a sinister secret society which includes i'm i'm probably going to pronounce this wrong i'm going to spell it d-a-c-o-i-t-s decoits okay fanzigars thugies and other terrible cults yet he also employs spiders rats reptiles
01:55:22
Speaker
as well as beautiful women as his pawns. Another problematic statement, sticking beautiful women in with the snakes, rats, and reptiles. Like, you guys just didn't pull any punches.
01:55:38
Speaker
You gotta watch where you're putting your commas, your ellipses, you gotta watch the punctuation, what you're grouping together. It's an issue. It's an issue. It is a comic issue. Shut up. He went for his flank and he didn't be thwarted. So the old general says, for 40 years I opposed him along with
01:56:05
Speaker
I assume this is a name, Petri, and others, before he finally captured me, there was a guard used an enormous sumo who could grind an opponent's bones to paste.
01:56:16
Speaker
I was given to him. So essentially he goes to this whole diatribe of how evil Fu Manchu is with sumo wrestlers and stuff like that, which I think is a little weird because that's Japan and sumo wrestlers are not evil. Why would they even work for him? Exactly. Thank you. Um, so Shang-Chi is like, whoa, what the heck? And goes back to dad and says, dad, why are you so bad? I have some problems and we're going to talk. And Fu Manchu says, hold on.
01:56:47
Speaker
You believe that old white man? He says, know then that my initial goal, this is Fu Menchu talking to his son, know then that my initial goal was simply the restoration of China's ancient glory until the Communist Revolution, which we talked about, the Boxer Rebellion, and Sir Dennis, Nailan Smith, who is the old man who was just talking to Sheng-Chi,
01:57:09
Speaker
destroyed much of my power. I was forced to rebuild the Sifon without Peking's backing, but after 20 years I have succeeded. Now I stand alone, the emperor of an invisible worldwide empire opposed to all organized governments, and I swear by the gods of Cathay that in my wisdom I shall destroy them this time."
01:57:30
Speaker
And Shang-Chi is kind of looking at his dad like, okay, and then he fucks off. He says, next time we meet, dad, you and I are enemies, you're nuts. This is not a Buddhist way, this is not a Kung Fu way, I'm out. So that was, and so he goes and he eventually fights his dad throughout the whole issues. And so what this issue is asking, what if he didn't switch sides
01:57:55
Speaker
And, uh, what if he became the agent of his father, the agent that his father wanted? And so essentially what we have, um, is, uh, now, now I got to hold here for a second because it's a little convoluted, just a touch.
01:58:14
Speaker
We're back to Conan territory. The threads of the story are a little bit... It's a little bit... A little thread beer. A little bit thread beer. At times. And it's fine. You're in the position to patch together for the rest of us what's happening. So essentially what happens is Shang-Chi actually kills the guy his dad wanted him to kill.
01:58:37
Speaker
and he escapes. And so the individual, so basically what if he, what if Shang-Chi had departed a few crucial seconds before Waylon Smith entered that room and talked to him and said, your dad's actually the bad guy.
01:58:53
Speaker
And so, and so, uh, Waylon Smith says, you know, I've, Petrie old man, who is the guy who, uh, Shang-Chi was sent to kill. I failed you, but I swear on your soul, you will be avenged. And so then we have boxes all throughout that are, that is Shang-Chi talking saying, uh, I returned to my father's London sanctuary.
01:59:14
Speaker
He will be pleased. And yes, you know, Shang-Chi says he succeeded in killing Petri, but he's still troubled by the deed. And he says, I've slain the evil one in your service, Father, defying every spiritual value I have been taught. I do not understand.
01:59:32
Speaker
And his father interrupts him and says, True, you were taught many values embodied in the sacred Tao, the sanctity of life among them. But I and my teachers shaped more than your mind and spirit. We shaped to your body, training it under the most demanding disciples, disciplines, excuse me, of the martial arts, forging you into a veritable living weapon, an instrument easily capable of inflicting death. Why did you not protest the contradiction then?
01:59:59
Speaker
and Shang-Chi answers, it was in the cause of defense, not, and then his dad interrupts again, his dad's dick, uh, defense, yes. But when one is attacked, the most effective defense is a like, offense. And so he's kind of likening what he went through previously with the boxer rebellion to what Shang-Chi is dealing with, and so he's trying to kind of like, manipulate his son,
02:00:22
Speaker
into understanding where he was coming from, where his murderous intent was coming from. And also weaponize him in general. And weaponizing him 100% in general. And then he continues and says, and now in my service you have slain Dr. Petri, a servant of the most evil man in the world, a man whose many servants have slain many of those who serve me, a man my son who would gladly slay you. What?
02:00:43
Speaker
I don't. A man, my son. Oh, he's saying Petrie would have killed his kid. Right, right, right. That man is Sir Dennis Nalen Smith, the guy who said, your dad's a jerk. And so we have a few cut panels immediately. There's no, meanwhile, back in London, so it's immediate.
02:01:05
Speaker
We have Sir Whelan Smith talking to his group of men, and he's putting together a force to go and destroy Fu Manchu. And so we kind of go through that a little bit. There's a lot of hemming and hawing. Some ads there, soliciting child. Some ads there, right, right, right. Here nine-year-olds go out in the rain and work 15 hours for a popsicle.
02:01:33
Speaker
And so Shang-Chi goes at his father's behest to dig up some of his old warriors that were already dead. So he's gonna go grave rob. And through MI6, who are the British gentlemen, they're going to, somehow their intelligence has figured out they're going to this certain graveyard. One of the holes, one of the magical holes of comics.
02:02:03
Speaker
Yes, and just that's not a red flag for him at all. No, no, no, I'm gonna go dig up some dead bodies for you dad, okay. We got international intelligence going on here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grave, grave activity. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Shang-Chi is kind of like not really in his moral best place at the moment.
02:02:23
Speaker
Alright. Yeah, yeah. Proceed. Proceed? Okay. So, he, Shang-Chi and his group of men that his father has given him to go and get these bodies out of the grave go. And meanwhile, Fu Manchu starts to create and mass produce his serum vitae.
02:02:54
Speaker
And they... Oh, Jesus. There's so much stuff here, you guys. I'm so sorry. There's a lot of... I mean, I just want to reflect that. It's constant. This is a convoluted text here. Oh, man. I mean, he is analyzing... I mean, on these two pages, there are at least 17... So many panels. 1720 panels, edit... Well, maybe a little editorial.
02:03:19
Speaker
eight panels per page, all of them at least with two large word balloons per page. You know me, I hate reading. You're bringing us through, you rely on the pictures, you rely on the words, whatever, just keep carrying this through to the promised land. Good, good. So I feel like also this is a drawn out scenario. And I keep seeing, they could have, oh man, this could have been, this could have been a two issue special like Sean's.
02:03:45
Speaker
So the fighting happens with MI6 guys and Shang-Chi and MI6 guys are losing because Shang-Chi is so fast and I apologize, this is probably going to be an editing nightmare for you Ken. Yeah, drawn out stuff.
02:04:09
Speaker
And oh, we get to the point where we get the bodies back to dad.
02:04:15
Speaker
and get the bodies the five bodies back to dad so dad can reanimate them yes with the elixir with the elixir vitae yeah yeah and we have sugar free i shouldn't gloss over that the the the mi6 guys have captured one of shank cheese men at the graveyard site and they're asking him for questions they're they're they're questioning him calling him a yellow devil
02:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so there's some stuff that was really hard for me to keep continue to continue forward with reading this because it's like you guys I Probably not, you know, it's just a bad it's a bad bad note Yeah, please do you only find really interesting is that I haven't seen this with Marvel now three of us here
02:05:11
Speaker
you still work for things from the world yeah comic book store here in the Pacific Northwest and it's sister company Dark Horse now I came into reading comics through you know pretty before I started going to comic book stores I grabbed like one issue comics from from our local grocery store and basically what I got was like a random aliens issue okay
02:05:35
Speaker
So later on in life, I grabbed more aliens. And one of the first things I grabbed was the the supposedly what aliens three was supposed to be. Oh, the movie. Yes. Yeah. Okay.
02:05:53
Speaker
And I remember reading the omnibus version. Now this was not the original print, this was like third or fourth print down the line. And I remember reading it and saying, and it said Wilkes and Gekko. And I'm like, who the fuck is Wilkes and Gekko? Later on I became friends with some people at Dark Horse and I asked this question. They laughed and said, well,
02:06:21
Speaker
In the reprints, they didn't want to confuse people with it being Hicks and Newt. So they just changed the names. OK. Oh, OK. But what's interesting is I bet you might be able to find issues like this printed by Marvel where they don't go back and they don't change these kind of weird, possibly challenging powers. Now would be the time to find out because I can bet that they are re-releasing a lot of Shang-Chi right now.
02:06:50
Speaker
Oh you're right because right now is when you're gonna be seen it. It'd be really interesting to go. We should ask David Walker too. He's got the whole Shang-Chin collection. Oh okay. Just some of the modern stuff. Right on. If they've gone back and like edit it out and like made it a little more PC. That's no that's a that's I'm glad you brought that up because I've been wondering that a lot particularly when you've seen like one of the experiences I've had is as I've gotten older
02:07:32
Speaker
it was like I didn't think it was like that bad and then like then you look at it and then you look at it and it's like it was like really that bad and you see the date and you're surprised by the day and you're surprised by that but I think with this issue I mean the things that that plays into it's like
02:07:40
Speaker
I've gotten away from
02:07:49
Speaker
you know it's just not innocuous when you know you see uh flus and viruses named in in in racialized in the same exact way yep major major issue it's not because of comic book but you know it's all in the mix yeah it's just like super anyways you're trying to get through the material you're guiding us it's it's hard to not get through this it's hard to get through this and not
02:08:18
Speaker
Stop and go what the fuck what's going on basically here because yeah So yeah, so the dead dudes Come to life and Shang-Chi says by tomorrow Buckingham Palace and yes even the imperialist Queen shall be mine England England shall be mine and Shang-Chi says but father this is madness but father This is madness
02:08:46
Speaker
Sorry. Madness, no, but I have allowed enthusiasm to make me careless. You should never have entered this chamber, but you cannot do... Silence? You will leave here and you will remain confined to your quarters. No, Father, with all due worship, I cannot go. It is not yours to question my celestial personage. He's got a little bit of a God complex.
02:09:22
Speaker
He's got a little bit of a something ego, I think is what you were calling it And so and so his dad says one word to Shane she says go and Shane she says very well father and
02:09:39
Speaker
And leaves the room and doesn't like start a revolution then and realize like hey you're dealing with the sanctity of life Which is not what we talked about this is this is going against the tenants of tau I'll just leave because you're my dad even though you're doing stupid shit So they go through this whole kind of interesting
02:10:02
Speaker
the MI6 is getting information of where things are going to be happening at the Buckingham Palace. They're getting information from the guy they're questioning. And so, Shang-Chi, then, uh, at some point, he says, uh... Wait, no? What the hell?
02:10:22
Speaker
Oh, Shang-Chi, okay, so they lock Shang-Chi up. Shang-Chi breaks out of his cage and realizes what his father's doing and then they go to take Buckingham Palace. MI6 is there to stop them and as MI6 rolls up, they notice that this big van is rolled up and they let loose this group of undead creatures, men riding on giant lizards?
02:10:52
Speaker
Yeah, giant lizards. Where are they being deposited? I just want to make sure they're being deposited at Buckingham Palace So that so that they can take over Buckingham Palace and it's a why it's a wild scene listeners as Ethan's describing it as outlandish as it sounds I couldn't really summarize. I have verified it was depicted in the comic. Yeah, it is verifiable They do look like chicken lizards the the the chizards
02:11:19
Speaker
The Lickens? No. No. Anyway, so they go and fight, and they have a fight, and they shoot, and they fight, and Shang-Chi shows up, and he gets into the fight.
02:11:29
Speaker
He wants to stop his dad. Blampow, guns, swords, uh, kicking, hitting. Really cool art, actually. Really good, uh, gun for art. Yeah, yeah, it's really fun, actually. Um, and Shang-Chi, uh, freaks out when actually one of the MI6 guys kills one of the, the, uh, undead guys.
02:11:50
Speaker
And then my sixth guy who Shang-Chi punches after the flamethrow is one of the one of the brought back to life guys says what's what's with him I saved his life too and and one of the other in my sixth guy says yeah whose side is he on and there's a whole diatribe that goes on
02:12:09
Speaker
uh with Shang-Chi and he retorts and basically states eventually it was life it might not have been their their original life but it was life and you took it and you didn't have the right to take it just as my dad didn't have the right to give it and so it's kind of an interesting like it makes Shang-Chi uh like he's gonna obey his tenants
02:12:35
Speaker
No matter what, and I thought that was kind of cool. I thought that was kind of interesting. So we actually, I'm gonna- Is Dan that in this issue? No, but-
02:12:46
Speaker
But at this point Shang-Chi leaves and he's not gonna be with MI6 and he's not gonna be with his dad and in the original comics that's a big deal because he does end up being with MI6 for a while. So it's an interesting book and I thought it was kind of interesting because it actually had the character of Shang-Chi
02:13:06
Speaker
with some moral. Was that a Star Trek movie ad at the bottom to start an interruption? Yes, those are the 23rd Odyssey now. Star Trek the motion picture ad. Yeah. So 78. This was in 78 or 79. I was eight years old when that was published. And I actually like the story is very convoluted.
02:13:28
Speaker
all over the board supremely convoluted yeah um but i liked shang chi's characterization i like that eventually like so what if he did so really if he did fight on the side of who meant you nothing really bad would have happened he would have become shang chi the shang chi that we know nowadays
02:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, those are always to me to me those are always the boring what if it's it's kind of boring it's just like I want them I want the like the ripples to blow up everything The thing that I thought was cool
02:14:07
Speaker
was the reason I wanted and it kind of like made me excited to do it for the podcast is because we got the movie coming up and a lot of people don't know who Shang-Chi is. Yeah and this actually kind of informed me who he is and why he does what he does and I thought that was cool and then so I did a deep dive earlier today and I went through and I read the 2020 five issue limited series that is now not only written by an Asian writer drawn by an Asian artist
02:14:35
Speaker
and it's really really good and a lot of what had happened in this issue happens throughout that five issue miniseries and so they're giving credence to it but they also call they do not call Fu Manchu Fu Manchu they call him Zang Zhu if I'm pronouncing it right they because number one Fu Manchu being an evil Asian emperor is racist and
02:15:02
Speaker
Also, Marvel lost the rights to the pulp fiction character, the pulp character of Fu Manchu. I keep saying pulp fiction because, anyway. So, they changed that, so they took a lot of the racism out of it, but they didn't not talk about it.
02:15:21
Speaker
in shang chi's estimation as a worker in a shop uh i think in san francisco or i can't quite remember but it was really interesting and it shows that his character is evolving and people are not only
02:15:38
Speaker
changing stories because the society is changing with walt cultural culture and everything but that they're making the character better they're making him a bit more more uh interesting and so our stories that we cherish that we enjoy that we talked about are are becoming stronger and better
02:16:00
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, because they're actually putting some more, some effort into it. Some thought. Yeah. A lot of this, a lot of the old stories like this that thrive on the derivative of stereotypes is not writing at all. It's just going with like what's already being passed around. Yeah. And lazy. It's lazy. Yes. Yeah. I agree. 100%.
02:16:16
Speaker
While there's no disruption of the culture you might be participating in. Ethan,
Reflections on 'What If' Scenarios
02:16:24
Speaker
thank you for that issue. One thing I wanted to ask about it though before we leave it is I'm not as familiar as you're referring to spy elements. How much is that part of the background and part of the narrative?
02:16:38
Speaker
I think it's a large part of the earlier Shang-Chi stuff. The MI6 characters do come into play a lot. There's a lot of characters in here that I didn't mention, but they also bring back into the current Shang-Chi stuff. In the current Shang-Chi stuff, he is still dealing with MI6. Given the gear that this came out, and I was just looking this up, and now I'm flipping through to try and
02:17:09
Speaker
to see if this character shows up, apparently, back in the day of the comics, Marvel published James Bond comics for a while. And of course, in my head, if somebody mentions MI6, that's where my mind goes. Especially if you're talking Marvel, where it's like, well, you could just unshield. Like, why does that have to be MI6? So I was just looking up to see if there was any sort of crossover
02:17:37
Speaker
And apparently, yeah, in Giant-sized Masters of Kung Fu Number 3 implies that James Bond may be the father of Clive Renston, an MI6 agent with a 00 license to kill. So I was trying to figure out if Clive was in this issue.
02:17:56
Speaker
And I'm not seeing any names mentioned with the MI6 agents, but I just, I don't know, I just, given the timeframe, I was like, I'm sure that like, I'm sure there's some sort of, cause apparently James Bond has shown up in the Marvel comics. I'm unfamiliar with like, I'm fascinated by that. I mean, I just watched, I did just watch a VHS copy of, um,
02:18:25
Speaker
Moonraker and that was not an easy path and I'm actually I feel bad for bringing it up right now Yeah, okay. All right. So we've been doing the what-if episode of something rather than nothing Absolutely epic. I'm gonna open up One more time here final comments from the guests. I I am NOT gonna try to
02:18:52
Speaker
neatly summarize the journey that we have been upon. That would take some time and of itself, but what I wanted to do is open up the microphone to each of the guests, just like parting words, or like, I was on the couch last night, saw this on TV, it was the coolest thing ever, I need to tell you about it.
02:19:16
Speaker
We're going to start with a good friend, Sean Wynn, kind of taking us out from your perspective. From my perspective, as Martin knows, I actually collect what-ifs because I love alternate reality stories. In fact, what-if is the Marvel brand of it, but I also collect the DC elsewhere.
02:19:45
Speaker
World's versions of these stories too so anything like that. I'm always grabbing so this was actually a joy for me, but Relative to my actual life the question. What if? This was a nice reminder hearing these stories and reading them know that that I actually try to embody and live my life By not asking myself this question and what I mean by that is If I have the means in the opportunity
02:20:14
Speaker
I don't go, well, what if I do this? I just do it. And then whether the consequences are good or bad, I'm going to take that and then evolve from that and learn from that. It's actually how I ended up here in Portland. Instead of staying in Chicago, at one point I asked myself, well, what if I move someplace else? To see what it's like to live someplace else? And then I just said, fuck it, and did it.
02:20:39
Speaker
No job, little bit of savings, just was like, well, I'm never going to find out if I don't do it. Because I had enough what ifs in my past that I was upset by that I just never want to experience that again. I'd rather just go for it. Do. Act, right? Yeah.
02:21:00
Speaker
Thank you, Sean. Thank you for sharing that. Martin. How am I supposed to follow that? My bad, man. No, this was super awesome. I do also like reading the What Ifs and the Elseworlds. And some of my favorite stories in comics are Elseworlds, What Ifs, Spinoffs, that end up being canon sometimes.
02:21:32
Speaker
No, this was super pleasure. Pleasurable to sift through and find all these extra what ifs that I didn't know existed trying to find one that I thought would fit. And yeah, mine Punisher as an Agent of Shield came out exactly as I thought it was. He was just going to do the same thing that Punisher does, unfortunately.
02:22:15
Speaker
What occurred over the last couple hours Ethan? Something rather than nothing what if episode thoughts on what if or life or What have you so? Sean just kind of piggybacking on what you're talking about You know me you know me you know me yep we all do and
02:22:23
Speaker
Punish or Gonna Punish.
02:22:40
Speaker
I was pointing to everybody. You don't know me, but you can't see me. No, I'm sorry. I'll take that out. When I was a kid, I always wondered where would I be at if I learned guitar, if I learned bass now?
02:22:56
Speaker
And I stopped what if-ing myself and started playing and ended up playing in a band and doing some recordings. And it was just, you know, because I'd always liked music and same thing. I don't want to live in Vermont my entire life. I want to see what else is out there.
02:23:13
Speaker
and made that decision and just do and I agree with that and I think the what if stuff is an interesting question because the stuff has already gone forward it's already out there it's not going to change but what if we change it.
02:23:27
Speaker
And I think that's interesting. I think that's interesting in life in a large way. And I think it's kind of fun to think about. I think it's a dangerous rabbit hole sometimes. But, you know. And also, like, I got to learn about... I got to relearn about one of the characters that got me into comics. Shang-Chi. That was really cool.
02:23:52
Speaker
you know so thank you for this and you ended up with an illicit copy of the red room by ed pisker yeah i did i did i did if you are listening if you know what that means he is going away with the gift uh i did remember and unfortunately for martin i did remember that each
02:24:07
Speaker
Guess has to answer two major questions to the show I had just remembered that Martin has to answer two questions and he will be prompted as such What is art and why is there something rather than nothing? What is art what is art it's expression good or bad
02:24:32
Speaker
evil or naughty, good, you know, uh, you'll like it. You're, you don't art is expression. Sweet. All right. And what about the something, the wise, there's why, why, why is there something rather than nothing? Oh, I'm trying to think of some poetic thing, but why not? There has to be something. There's nothing, then there's nothing. That's been the gist of a lot of people answering. It's like we're talking,
02:25:01
Speaker
You know, we just went through some what ifs, there's some experience there. You know, I don't even remember the answer I gave you to that question. Nobody does. I was somebody I was I answered the question I've hosted and
02:25:15
Speaker
I was serious in my answers but I think one of the things that's funny is like why I'm really into philosophy and I'm not sure if anybody knows this or only a few people do is like in my like work in job in my thinking I'm like just basically
02:25:36
Speaker
Like, I can provide structure, but I just provoke. Like, all I do is provoke. Like, provoke thinking, provoke, like, from a union rep standpoint, provoke, provoke, provoke. Because for me, like, things are fundamentally bullshit. Like, I don't accept things as they are at all. So for me, it's kind of a full, like, bullshit, like, thing. So I've had some, like, strong, you know, strong reactions.
02:26:00
Speaker
strong reaction to that. But I think one of the things I'm trying to do in the podcast is build community and just put in the idea of merits that it's really good to have fun, really good to perform. And even if it is not really good to perform or you don't do it to feel really good, if you need that to fucking breathe, then fucking do it. Create, think. Because I don't know, if I didn't have the message prior to the pandemic,
02:26:30
Speaker
I got the message now, like in a cosmic way of like doing what we're doing. And if the romance of Conan and Dannette, if the romance of Conan and Dan does not inspire us to think about love. And see, now I want to go back to see if Dan ever showed up again.
02:27:00
Speaker
anywhere. I mean, I got attached to her and I want to tell, let's talk about the interest for one more second. We're going to close it up. But what I wanted to mention about Dan, here's the reason why, here's the reason why I liked her, right? First of all, she's working hard, right? She's got her little cap on. She's looking cute. She's wearing a, she ain't, she's just doing her thing in the city, 1978, New York city, trying to get the cab fear and into her life enters
02:27:27
Speaker
And with this sword who was attacked her livelihood and destroyed it and but she's drawn You know, so it's a complicated story. Maybe I made more out of it than was really there in those I wanted to thank everybody here Joining the show
02:27:51
Speaker
A lot of fun, super-sized episode, and while there's a lot of material to produce, I am guaranteeing to listeners and guests who are here at this table that there will be a what-if session. I think it's the only word we can provide. A what-if session, part two. Thank you, everybody. What-if episode number one, wrap. Thank you.
02:28:26
Speaker
This is something rather than nothing.