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E012 The Jamison Family
2.4k Plays6 years ago
In this week’s episode, Maggie and Allison explore the mysterious deaths of 44-year-old Bobby, 40-year-old Sherilyn, and 6-year-old Madyson. From angry letters to missing weapons, hidden money, and a witch’s bible, the details of this case are both creepy and confounding.
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Transcript
Coping Mechanisms in Chaos
00:00:01
Speaker
Sometimes life seems so chaotic that our grip on sanity seems rather precarious. So we turn to coping mechanisms. Some of us cry, others yell, some clean. At least that's something we can control in situations that seem at times uncontrollable.
00:00:21
Speaker
In modern times, as a way to cope, we tend to just avoid altogether dwelling on dark realities of an unknown future and focus on the present. We're afraid of what we don't know and what we don't understand. Shakespeare's Hamlet speaks of how we would rather bear those ills we have than fly to others that we know not of, because what if it's worse?
00:00:46
Speaker
Sometimes we laugh when anxious fears creep in. We create fake fears in order to poke fun at the real ones. We talk about FOMO, fear of missing out, so we forget about fears of neglect, abandonment, pain. We laugh to keep from crying, the psychological salve of a smile. But sometimes smiles aren't possible, or
The Jamison Family Introduction
00:01:12
Speaker
worse, they aren't enough.
00:01:15
Speaker
They certainly aren't enough to eliminate the darkness of our story today. The demons in it are too powerful. Whether they're the demons of depression, the demons of mind and life-altering drugs, or literal demons vying for the souls of a young family. Was it misfortune? Was it a curse? Or was it pure evil that couldn't be held at bay?
00:01:42
Speaker
This is the story of the Jamison family.
Podcast Mission and Listener Engagement
00:02:19
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement.
00:02:36
Speaker
so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week. Before we begin our show today, Maggie and I want to issue you listeners another challenge.
Listener Challenge for Ratings
00:03:02
Speaker
So you guys were so super awesome at getting us to 15 written comments on iTunes and you did it so quickly that we want to up the ante. This is a lofty goal. We're not gonna lie, it's gonna take a bit. I'm a little scared. But if anybody can do it, you guys can. We want 150 ratings on iTunes. We're currently at 67.
00:03:26
Speaker
So we are aiming to more than double that. It literally only takes a split second. If you are listening to us on iTunes, just take a second and click that five-star rating. We have listeners from all over the world, including a growing listenership in Sweden. So while this is a big ask, we think that you guys can do it. It may take a little longer than last time, but once we get to that 150, we will do another bonus episode.
00:03:53
Speaker
So just make sure to follow us on social media, Coffee and Case's podcast on Facebook or at Coffee Case's podcast on Instagram and then you can always listen in weekly and we'll let you know when that episode will air. Now, Maggie, let's get into our show today.
Jamison Family Struggles
00:04:11
Speaker
The Jamison family, made up of 44-year-old Bobby, 40-year-old Cherylin, and 6-year-old Madison, were looking for a change of scenery from their lakefront home in Eufaula, Oklahoma in October of 2009. The family unit had recently changed when Cherylin's son Colton, from her previous marriage, had decided to move back in with his father in Oklahoma City.
00:04:38
Speaker
As a result of Colton's move, the family was struggling a bit more financially. So he helped pay bills and things? No, but Cherylin had been receiving child support each month. And so with that additional help gone, the family was facing this mounting difficulty in paying the bills and they needed to get back on track financially.
00:05:01
Speaker
and they must have felt like they needed to get back on track emotionally and physically as well, Maggie. You see, one of the reasons they struggled was because both Bobby and Cherylin were on disability. Bobby had been involved in a serious car accident in 2003 that injured his back. Because of this injury, Bobby was in constant pain, which left him feeling depressed,
00:05:28
Speaker
especially since it's reported that he couldn't even walk around their house without feeling intense pain.
Family Disputes and Security Measures
00:05:35
Speaker
Wow. Right, so this is... So that's bad. Exactly. In addition to the physical pain, Bobby was dealing with some weighty family struggles as well. According to some reports, when Bobby was younger, his father, Bob Sr., used to pull Bobby out of school to help him at the gas station that Bob Sr. owned.
00:05:54
Speaker
And he had led Bobby to believe that half of the profit from that gas station would be his because he'd worked there so often. Yeah. Right? But when Bobby got nothing, he decided to fight for his legal right to it. Can you do that? Yeah, so he decided to take his father to court.
00:06:14
Speaker
And according to Bobby's mother and Bobby Senior's wife of 40 years, Starlett, she said that Bobby's father would threaten the family often. And when she and Bob Senior split up, she actually moved in with Bobby and Cherylin for a short time. And both Starlett and Bobby and Cherylin at least thought that Bob Senior was potentially dangerous because they both installed security cameras outside of their homes.
00:06:41
Speaker
That's a little extreme, I feel like, for your dad. Right, but at least, I mean, they know him better than anybody. Proactive, I guess. Right? And Bobby had actually filed a civil suit and a restraining order against his father. According to an article by Andrew Nittle, Bobby said that on November 1st, 2008, his father had, quote, hit him with his vehicle. Oh my God. Yeah, so this is, again, this is not a positive. This isn't petty. Yeah, father-son relationship.
00:07:11
Speaker
And also, he wrote the following in the petition to the courts, quote, my entire family is severely afraid for their lives. I am in fear at all times, end quote. But Maggie, the protective order after the judge heard the testimony of everyone,
00:07:33
Speaker
was ultimately dismissed. Really? Yeah. Even though they installed cameras, they were so scared and his entire family was scared, the judge still dismissed it. Right. And I'm thinking, you know, it didn't hit me until just now. They're struggling financially and security cameras costs money.
00:07:49
Speaker
Yeah. And so they would have to at least be scared enough that they're willing to spend this extra money that they don't have. That they don't have. Yeah. On these cameras. With this judgment, it only seemed to fuel Bobby's view of his father as, according to that same article by Andrew Nittle, quote, a very dangerous man who thinks he is above the law. End quote. And it kind of seems like it. Yeah. It seems like he gets away with
Cherylin's Depression and Family Impact
00:08:11
Speaker
anything.
00:08:11
Speaker
And Maggie Bobby wasn't the only one who'd been dealing with personal trauma. Connie Coakerton, Cherylin's mother, has noted that in 2007, her other daughter, Marla, Cherylin's sister and her best friend had been stung on the tongue by a bee and died. Out of all the ways to go. Yeah, to be stung on a tongue by a bee. That's so random. Anywhere you could get stung.
00:08:38
Speaker
It's on your tongue and you're gonna die. Right. You know, one time I went to an amusement park and when I came home, my lip was really swollen.
00:08:48
Speaker
And I didn't know why. I mean, when I say swollen, like hugely swollen. And my mom took me to the emergency room and they said that when I was at this amusement park and like drinking, I guess, the juice out of a snow cone or whatever it was, that it was a spider butt. So somehow the spider had bit my lip.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yep, yep. So, I mean, this is obviously a tragic death and a sudden one, you know, and it sent Cherylin into a deep depression, because this was her best friend and sister. Yeah, and so quick. And in fact, her mother reported, quote, she, Cherylin, would spend days up in her room. She was very depressed and had to take medication.
00:09:33
Speaker
And you know, I feel like it's easy to see how that kind of loss can lead to depression. I teach a text called the Epic of Gilgamesh to my students. And this is, I mean, this is a text that's so ancient that it predates Egyptian hieroglyphics. This particular text. This was on my Praxis content exam, the Epic of Gilgamesh. Yeah.
00:09:59
Speaker
Well, I think one of the reasons why this text has been so popular and has stood the test of time is because in it Gilgamesh loses his best friend and his brother and at first he doesn't want to let him go.
00:10:11
Speaker
when his brother dies, and once he does, Gilgamesh has to go on this journey to find himself again, and he gets to this dark valley, and it's this valley, Maggie, it's so dark that he can't see where he's going and he can't see his hand in front of his face, but he keeps going, thinking it's gonna get better, but it's still so dark that he can't see where he's going and he can't see his hand in front of his face.
00:10:39
Speaker
and he keeps going. And again, it's the same thing, right? He can't see where he's going. He can't see his hand in front of his face. And if that's not like depression, I don't know what is. And eventually he lets out this great cry, wondering when this pain is gonna go away, right? Because he can't see where he's going and he can't see his hand in front of his face. He keeps going, the darkness surrounds him still until eventually
00:11:06
Speaker
he sees this tiny pinhole of light, and it's only after this long while that he feels the sun on his face again. And to me, that is grief. That's the grief we've all felt. I felt it when my grandmother passed away. Yeah, this whole thing, when you were reading this, I just thought of when my brother passed away. That's such a good description of how I felt. And it's so hard to get through it. Yeah, it feels so heavy.
00:11:35
Speaker
Yeah, and I feel like that's how Cherylin had to feel over the loss of her sister.
00:11:43
Speaker
And as if these stressors weren't enough, Maggie, there were even more things that had happened recently that led the family to desire a relocation to the mountains.
Mysterious Disappearance
00:11:53
Speaker
The wilderness, really. Bobby had recently made a report to the police about a meth lab in the area. So I can only imagine that he wanted to move to a safer place to raise his little girl, Madison.
00:12:06
Speaker
There had also recently been an incident at Madison's kindergarten in class where Madison's two front teeth were knocked out. Oh my God, what kind of kindergarten class is this? I know. So, you know, they were kind of angry at the school. And after that, I read in a lot of accounts that Bobby and Sherrilyn had begun homeschooling her to keep her safe. But times were tough.
00:12:27
Speaker
And with the little income that they had trickling in, the legal battles. Yeah, cause that's not cheap to take your dad to court. Right. The loss of this child support that Cherylin had been getting. And when they decided to homeschool Madison, they were kind of worried about like how is she going to handle not being around friends and not having kind of that communication. Yeah.
00:12:49
Speaker
interaction and so they had bought her a new puppy named Maisie and again dogs cost a lot of money. Yes they do. I know firsthand my dog's epileptic and we shell the money out every month. And so I mean the Jamison family they were kind of left threadbare.
00:13:10
Speaker
And to top it all, in order to bring in more money, the Jamesons had taken in a border. Oh no, that kind of scares me. I don't like that kind of stuff. I know, because I feel like my home is my home and I don't work. Yeah. And I feel like I would have to keep it super clean all the time. Oh yeah. Oh, that would never happen. I would struggle.
00:13:29
Speaker
But the man who they had taken in as a boarder was soon driven away from their home at gunpoint by Cherylin when the man said he hated anyone who wasn't white and started using racial slurs. Well, as a Native American, Cherylin was not going to allow that kind of hatred in her home and especially not around her daughter. Yeah. Um, like, I just feel like there's no place for that in the world ever. Never.
00:13:58
Speaker
So.
00:13:59
Speaker
I think it's pretty obvious why there was this impetus to get out of this seemingly toxic environment. I mean, there's a lot that's going on right now in all of their lives. According to an article by Phil Cross on okcfox.com, the Jamesons had gone to Panola Mountain outside of Red Oak to look at a 40 acre plot. Now I'm guessing because it was on a mountain that it wasn't like, quote unquote, prime land that would cost a lot.
00:14:29
Speaker
So the family owned this large storage container and based on several accounts that I read Maggie they planned on living in it in the San Vios mountains. So like a storage container that you can move. I'm picturing like those things that people like deliver to your house and they leave it there and you fill it up and then when you're ready to move they come pick it up. That's what I'm picturing too.
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah. You're going to live in it? But again, I mean, if you're... Is it insulated? Does it have a bathroom? I guess you just go out in the woods. Oh, no. This is why I don't camp, because no, I've got to have a toilet. Well, let me tell you, Maggie, and you know, like almost every...
00:15:08
Speaker
Don't like fishing or camping because then this bad stuff is avoidable. Yeah, right. Like just just avoid that all of these stories. They end up liking these things and we will be stuck home reading a book and and we're fine. That's where we're living. Yeah, but this kind of roughing it from what I read was right up Bobby's alley. Colton Cheryl and son remember from her previous marriage. Yeah.
00:15:35
Speaker
He reported that Bobby not only grew up in the country that he quote, new nature. So he's the kind I'm imagining who can like tell you what kind of tree this is and which mushrooms you can eat and that sort of thing. Well, I mean, I feel like I grew up relatively quote unquote country. Right, me too. Like I can tell you like different types of trees and stuff like that from my grandpa, but I still want to have running water.
00:16:06
Speaker
You wanna have a toilet? Yeah, I need a refrigerator to put my Nestle Pure Life in. Like, hello. The necessities. Yeah. Well, they had already been to this prospective property one time, and they were going to look at it again. Only this time, none of them came home.
00:16:27
Speaker
It was the discovery of their abandoned truck eight days later that led to more confusion. What was left inside of that truck made it appear that the family had just stepped away and could return at any moment. But of course, Maggie, I'm telling their story. So we know that that is not what happened. In this abandoned truck, where their jackets,
00:16:55
Speaker
their cell phones, Cherylin's purse, Bobby's wallet, and so their IDs, Madison's dog, Maisie, starved nearly to death, and oh, this makes me so sad, surviving only by eating her own excrement. And there was one extremely surprising final item.
00:17:22
Speaker
an envelope containing $32,000 in cash. Okay, so immediately I'm like, cell phone, you don't leave that behind if you go somewhere. No. Your ID. My dad has always taught me, anytime you go somewhere, take a photo ID. Right. Okay, so you're not going to leave that behind. My dog, definitely not going to leave her behind.
00:17:46
Speaker
$32,000 in cash. That's staying on me. Yes. No, that's never going to be by itself. Right.
Discovery of Remains and Ongoing Mystery
00:17:53
Speaker
Well, some speculate whether the family had been forced from their truck, right? Which would explain why they had lifted all the time. Yeah, why they left everything. But there was no evidence of force nor struggle. And also, why would it be locked? Right.
00:18:06
Speaker
And had they been forced out, why would there still be an envelope containing such a large amount of cash just left behind by whoever forced them out? You'd think they would have taken that. And the dog? Yeah, and they put a little dog on. Or at least let it out. Yeah. Well, taking a different approach, the Latimer County Sheriff is reported to have thought initially that the truck was stolen.
00:18:33
Speaker
Again, while I leave the money. I mean, true. And according to an article for News 9 by Dan Bewley, the Latimer County Sheriff's Office had spent a million dollars in searching for the Jamesons on horseback, with cadaver dogs, with drones, and they had come up empty handed each time.
00:18:56
Speaker
Wow, that's extensive. Yeah, they spent a lot of money searching for the Jamesons and the FBI had been brought in to question potential suspects, but they had also only met with dead ends. And Maggie, there have been no arrests made in their disappearance and no named suspects. Have we found bodies?
00:19:18
Speaker
I'm gonna get to that. Okay.
Missing Items and Enhanced Mystery
00:19:20
Speaker
In total, based on the information in Dan Buley's article, law enforcement spent 39 days on the mountain and followed up on countless tips but are no closer to solving the mystery than they were back in 2009. Also found in the truck,
00:19:39
Speaker
I didn't mention this a minute ago, was an 11 page letter from Cherylin to her husband Bobby that was dripping with anger and to some, hatred. So maybe she had something to do with it?
00:19:59
Speaker
Well, that is one theory, but Cherylin's neighbor and friend Nikki reports, though, that writing was Cherylin's therapy, that she loved Bobby more than anything, but writing down her frustrations was Cherylin's way of controlling those emotions and overpowering them. We kind of talked about that last week. Yeah. Writing being an escape for some people. Right. Now, it does seem weird to me that she would have it here in the letter, but I mean,
00:20:24
Speaker
If that's what she needs to be able to get it out, to not take it out or lash out, you know. That's her healthy way of expressing it. Right. But Maggie, I've told you what's in the truck. I haven't even told you yet what's missing from the truck. Oh.
00:20:42
Speaker
Based upon video captured by the security cameras that the Jamesons had installed, we know that Cherylin and Bobby had loaded many of their belongings into the truck, including a brown suitcase. A suitcase that, while we don't know what was inside, was never discovered.
00:21:03
Speaker
also missing was something that Sherilyn's mother said that Sherilyn never left home without her .22 caliber pistol gone. So both of which I feel like with the extensive searching that went on they would recover those. I would think. I would think.
Speculation on Cause of Death
00:21:25
Speaker
Four whole years passed before on November 16th, 2013, the remains of two adults and one child were discovered by hunters three miles from where their truck had been abandoned. All that remained after such a long stretch of time, after being exposed to the elements and after scavenging animals, were their skulls
00:21:52
Speaker
a single arm and leg bone, teeth, and a single shoe. As you can imagine, an article published by the Associated Press and published by Public Radio Tulsa tells us, quote, agency spokeswoman Amy Elliott says the cause and the manner of death is unknown. Because how could they know? Right. There's barely anything left. There's nothing there.
00:22:17
Speaker
There was also a small hole in the back of Bobby's skull. Now this could have been degraded by time to cause this small hole or as some speculate maybe it was caused by a bullet hole.
00:22:38
Speaker
What was peculiar though was the placement of the bodies face down and side by side. Weird.
Potential Suspects and Drug Theories
00:22:47
Speaker
Like a mass grave site or a ritual killing.
00:22:51
Speaker
And because of this placement, one theory of what happened to the Jameson family is often dismissed, that they simply walked away. Yeah, no, I don't think that happened at all. Yeah, I don't either. And as stated in Phil Cross's article about the Jameson family disappearance, even family and friends of the Jamesons, they question and they say, if they walked away,
00:23:11
Speaker
Who would walk away and leave $32,000 in cash in your vehicle? That's what I'm saying. Right. And in an article by Graham Noble, quote, investigators inquired into the Jameson's past and there doesn't appear to be any signs that they were in trouble or looking to start a new life. Oh, to like try to change their identity. Right. Or something like that. Well, Starlet, remember that is Bobby's mom.
00:23:37
Speaker
question this theory also but she questioned it because of the distance of the bodies from the abandoned truck. She reminds us that they were found three miles from the truck and that is as the crow flies. On the ground she said and through the woods it would have been double. And this walk from Bobby
00:23:58
Speaker
whose back hurts so badly that he couldn't even walk around his own home without feeling extreme pain? True, good point. Yeah, I think that's a great point. So that seems to show that that theory. Yeah, next. Yeah, but most obviously is the question that Cherylin's mother Connie has of this theory. Quote, if that happened, then why were they lying face down altogether like that?
00:24:25
Speaker
and why did they leave the dog in the car? Madison loved that dog and didn't go anywhere without it. She wouldn't have just left it in the car." End quote.
00:24:35
Speaker
So this little girl gonna be ripped away, like just walk away and leave your dog in the car that you just bought? Yeah, just hang out, no. Again, I'm with you Maggie, I don't think that that makes a whole lot of sense. No, like I'm shaking my head, everything you're eating, like no. A second theory is that they'd wandered onto this plot of land, potentially scoping it out for a place to put their storage building, and maybe they had gotten lost. Okay. Right, and then as the temperature dropped,
00:25:04
Speaker
they had succumbed to the bitter cold and they had died from hypothermia. And what time of year again was this? This is October. However, again, I think we need to question the distance. That's a long trek to make to quote scope out the land.
00:25:20
Speaker
Yeah, and through, again, wilderness. It's not like a flat piece of land. This is like mountainous, correct? Right. So that just, again, this isn't making a lot of sense to me. It's not adding up. And those who suspect foul play, they point out not only the potential bullet hole in Bobby's skull, but also the fact that as Sherilyn's son, Colton, has stated, Bobby grew up in the country, remember? Actually, Colton says, quote,
00:25:49
Speaker
proper country. Didn't know that was a thing. Okay. And that he would have known what he was doing out in nature. Remember he knew nature. So this whole explanation that they got lost. Not plausible. Yeah and Colton argued that there was no quote no way he would have gotten them lost like that.
00:26:09
Speaker
But if not those explanations, then what? The first suspect for law enforcement had actually been the border whom Cherylin had driven away at gun force. Yeah, crazy man. Right, but he had a solid alibi. Others wonder if Bob Sr. had stayed true to his promise to kill Bobby and his family. Again, crazy man. Yeah, and several sources that I read stated that because Bob Sr. was wealthy,
00:26:37
Speaker
and an angry man, that he was a real threat. And, and I read this in a lot of reports Maggie, it said that he was heavily involved with guns, prostitutes, gangs, and even that he had ties with a Mexican mafia.
00:26:55
Speaker
Oh wow, so he's definitely someone you don't want to mess with. Yeah, don't wrong him. But Bob Sr. died two months after Bobby, Cherylin, and Madison disappeared. So we may never know more about that theory. A third theory revolves around drugs. Either that Bobby and Cherylin were involved in the consumption of meth or that they happened upon a scene that they shouldn't have.
00:27:21
Speaker
in the middle of the woods? Yes. Well, before we started our episode today, I showed you the video from the Jameson family security camera of them loading their truck. Right. A video that we'll post for you Sleuth Hounds on Facebook and on our YouTube channel. Maggie, how would you describe Bobby and Cherylin in this video?
00:27:42
Speaker
It's really weird because you can tell they're carrying stuff to his truck, but they're just passing each other and not speaking to each other. And I think like when Anthony and I moved, I would be like, okay, the back seat's full. You need to put whatever that is in the trunk. Where do you think this would fit? Things like that. And they're just, yeah. And they're just like in a trance, just back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And I think that's interesting that you use the word trance because many investigators, according to Phil Cross's article,
00:28:11
Speaker
have used the adjective quote dazed to describe their movements, which to them could indicate drug use.
00:28:20
Speaker
It kind of does look like that a little, I think. Yeah. And the bizarre behavior combined with the $32,000 found in the truck has led to increasing support for this theory that the Jamesons were involved in a drug deal. Right, because how many people just have $32,000 in cash just lying around somewhere? Nobody I've ever known. Or could easily go to the bank and draw out $32,000 in cash. Right.
00:28:44
Speaker
But family members argue that Bobby and Cherylin were both clean, and they point out that no drugs nor drug paraphernalia was found in the Jamison home to indicate that they were using. And I have to admit, I mean, that's a valid claim. Unless they packed it all up.
00:28:59
Speaker
But I mean, I feel like there would be something in the truck. True. Good point. Right? Somewhere, what their family members believe happened is that they stumbled upon a meth lab and were murdered to silence them. So you said, like, in the woods, right? That was your big question. Well, Starlet noted in an interview that there were actually a lot of meth labs in that area of the mountain range.
00:29:25
Speaker
And remember, Maggie, Bobby had just recently called the police to report a meth lab in his current hometown. Wasn't that part of the reason they were leaving, though, to go somewhere safer? Right. And then... And so you're going to move. I know. I mean, good point. But I feel like, number one, if you are using drugs, you're probably not going to call the police to report a meth lab. True. True. Right? That's number one. But number two, what if whoever owned that meth lab
00:29:53
Speaker
knew these other people in the mountains and kind of sent them there to get Bobby, to like get him back. Good point. So could there have been somebody who just isolated and then murdered the family? And this idea of danger from an outside source also manifests itself in the next theory, Maggie.
Theories of Group Involvement
00:30:14
Speaker
Even though the border had a solid alibi, this theory is that a white supremacist group was behind their deaths.
00:30:24
Speaker
One small detail linked to this theory is related to the dogs used in the search. Now I will say that I only saw this noted in a single source but it reported that the dogs didn't track the family's scent into the woods where the family's bones were found. Okay. But it tracked to a water tank
00:30:48
Speaker
and that this water tank was then drained but revealed nothing. So we're back to water tanks. Exactly, we're back to Alyssa Lamb. Well, this source that I read, it discussed the fact that these dogs actually track adrenaline and stress hormones related to fear. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't either. And that's what this one article I read said. So what this detail seems to indicate, to me at least, is that the family had been maybe driven
00:31:15
Speaker
to the area in the woods where their remains were found, because the dogs didn't track them there. So I'm wondering exactly how wooded this would be, because I'm picturing woods in eastern Kentucky where you're walking on foot, or you need a four-wheeler to get around, and I'm wondering if that's how this was, or if a truck could have, or a car could have got there to dump their bodies. Well, let me show you a picture. Okay, so now that you see the picture, Maggie,
00:31:45
Speaker
What's going through your head? So you can Okay, clearly you can drive there because his truck is there and we see that in the picture, but this is like Super mountainous terrain. Yes, so I mean you're gonna have to have if you're driving in it One there's gonna have to be a cleared path and it looked very much like cluttered trees. Mm-hmm
00:32:10
Speaker
you have to know where you're going. Yeah, you have to know where you're going and you're going to have to have something that has like a four-wheel drive. Yes. Yeah, because you could easily get stuck. Well, another detail though that seems to indicate that someone else was in the woods with the Jamesons is linked to the final picture ever taken of Madison alive.
00:32:30
Speaker
Remember that Bobby's cell phone was found in the truck. Right. Right. Well, on that phone was this final picture of Madison. But when this picture was shown to Connie, Cherylin's mom, Nikki, Cherylin's neighbor and friend, and Starlett, Bobby's mother, all of them reacted the same way.
00:32:50
Speaker
that this was a little girl in distress. And I got chills. Connie specifically noted, quote, in the picture, Madison is looking away from the camera. She looks unhappy and she has her arms crossed. She loved having her picture taken. And if that had been Bobby or Cherylin behind the camera, she would have not looked like that.
00:33:13
Speaker
Oh, that's creepy. I know. Well Maggie, here is that picture and a picture of her a few months earlier. And we'll post these on our page for you Sleuthhounds to see as well. Now, obviously the family, they know Madison, and I don't. But I'm not convinced necessarily that I see fear in the picture so much as just like a candid shot. Yeah, when you showed me the picture of her like,
00:33:42
Speaker
posing for the camera, I think obviously you can clearly tell somebody's like, say cheese, and she's like smiling. And that one looks like
00:33:50
Speaker
she was just talking to somebody and her picture was snapped. Like it doesn't look like somebody saying like, look at the camera and smile and she's like grimacing or something. It's just like, like her body's not even in the direction of the camera to make you think that somebody was trying to take a post picture of her. It just looks candid. I mean, maybe that's why though the family felt like, cause then the other, she is kind of cheesy to the camera. Yeah.
00:34:18
Speaker
I mean, I don't know, Anthony catches me in all kinds of really weird, candid photos. There's like one in particular that, of course, he put on his Facebook because why would you not? Of me with no makeup on at the Mexican restaurant, like halfway chip, halfway to my mouth, like dripping with cheese. It's really flattering. Right. I mean, it could be
00:34:45
Speaker
I think a candid photo just like that one. But what I can't explain is the phone call that Cherylin's friend Nikki received from an anonymous woman claiming that a white supremacist group had killed the family.
00:35:03
Speaker
in an interview with Fox 25 as cited in Phil Cross's article, Nikki says the woman told her the following quote, she saw a book that had a bunch of names in it. They were names of people that someone in the group had a problem with and needed them taken care of. What?
00:35:21
Speaker
That's a thing. Apparently. Oh, no ma'am. I think of, is it Billy Madison when he calls Steve Buscemi's character from high school and like apologizes and he like crosses his name off of the kill list? I just think of like Mean Girls when they have that burn book and they write everybody's name down that they have a problem with. Right, well apparently this is a real thing. Well then Maggie, it gets even worse because the woman said she tried to look up the names that she remembered from the book.
00:35:56
Speaker
Creepy. Yeah. And the woman, according to Nikki, knew things that most people wouldn't. She knew about an engraving in Bobby's wedding ring. So that seems to me something that like, who's going to know that? So the lady that called this anonymous woman knew about Bobby's engraving in his wedding ring. Yes. Said that she overheard members of this white supremacist group talking. I mean,
00:36:16
Speaker
and that they usually showed up as missing persons.
00:36:27
Speaker
I don't even know what to say. That's creepy. That creeps me out that this happened. I know. And Nikki also argues that if you watch that security footage a little bit more closely, and actually I'll go ahead and tell you listeners, Maggie noticed this. I did. First time. But if you look a little bit more closely, you will see a third person, a man with Bobby and Cherylin. And Nikki says, most people assume that it's Bobby and he had just changed shirts.
00:36:54
Speaker
stirring the move from a white one to a brown one. But Maggie was like, there's another person there. Who's that other person? Yep, and it's clear as day. Even I think he looks taller than Bobby. His hair looks different, yeah. Well, Nikki argues that this is a different person, just like you said, Maggie. And that Bobby's actually sitting in the truck when this other man appears. So she says where Bobby has on a white shirt, you can kind of see. Oh, like through the window?
00:37:23
Speaker
And Nicky questions, were there movements even before they went to the mountain being controlled? So was this man part of that group or?
00:37:35
Speaker
and I hate to do this to you, Maggie. Could the explanation be linked to something supernatural? Yes. Maggie was ready for that one. Always.
Supernatural Theories and Beliefs
00:37:48
Speaker
Now, the first supernatural theory is a little bit far-fetched, but there's this theory, and I'd never heard about this before, related to the 35th degree north latitude, and it is called the line of tragedy. Have you ever heard of that?
00:38:05
Speaker
No, but now I'm definitely going to try to avoid the 35th degree north latitude line. Yeah, like plan your trip. Where's Anthony? Are we passing through? Are we crossing this? Let's not take that route. Well, basically the theory is that that particular latitudinal line is cursed. Okay, I'm not gonna lie. There's a map above us right now and I'm just gonna look at the 32. Is that it? Yeah.
00:38:32
Speaker
Oh. It's in Tennessee. Oh my. Okay, so it's below us. Okay. We don't have to, we don't have to, but see it going through Oklahoma. Yeah, there it is. Right there. Well, this theory is that that latitudinal line is cursed.
00:38:47
Speaker
that some of the worst tragedies in history all occurred at places that fall on this 35 degree line. Among those tragedies, according to an article by Brent Swanser, are Andrea Yates. She was the mom in Houston who suffered from postpartum depression and drowned all five of her children. I'm still looking at the map. Well, she's not. Yes. Yes. The Unabomber bombing site.
00:39:13
Speaker
I saw his cabin, did I tell you this? When we went to Washington, DC, it's in one of the museums we went to. It's creepy. And the murder of Pastor Carol Daniels, who I'd never heard of, but she was mutilated and her body propped up in a crucifix position. And Maggie added to those, the place where Bobby, Cherylin, and Madison disappeared
00:39:41
Speaker
also falls on that 35 degree line. Now, I don't know a lot about cartography. I didn't verify that this theory could be true. What I'm more likely to believe is that the curse was much more personal.
00:40:02
Speaker
demons in the Jamison's own home. And here we are again. Here we are again, right? Week after week. We get to talk about them all the time. Soon after their disappearance, the Jamison's pastor in Eufaula, Gary Brandon, came forward with information that shortly before their disappearance, Bobby became convinced that his home was haunted. No.
00:40:29
Speaker
Well, Maggie, in fact, Bobby said that he frequently saw, and I quote, two to four spirits on the roof, end quote. I don't know. You're gonna be so scared. And he wasn't the only one.
00:40:46
Speaker
As noted in Graham Noble's article, missing Oklahoma family demons and drugs, Cherylin had told the pastor that both she and little Madison had seen the spirits in the house as well.
00:41:01
Speaker
I just want you to know, I have to stay at work really late tonight. And now when I call my mom, I'm gonna be like, sorry. Or when I leave, I'm gonna be calling my mom. Mom? Right? Well, this is so creepy to me, Maggie, but apparently Cherylin thought that the spirits of dead family members were living with them in their home and that Madison would speak frequently with one ghost of a young child.
00:41:28
Speaker
Cherylin apparently thought that she could exercise demons.
00:41:33
Speaker
and that I read in a lot of different articles and they said different things, but that they had purchased either a satanic Bible. What? Yes. Or a witch's Bible to consult to help rid the home of evil presence. Okay, first off. I feel like that's bringing it in. Yeah, you don't buy a satanic Bible to get rid of evil presence in your house. That does the opposite. Why don't you just go ahead and put your Ouija board next to your satanic Bible. Yeah, exactly. How about instead you call somebody with some holy water. Yeah, call a priest.
00:42:02
Speaker
with a crucifix and the Bible Bible to get this evil presence out. Did I tell you that I think I saw a ghost once? Yeah, so in the old house that
00:42:14
Speaker
I grew up in before we got our new house. It was super old. My grandma, actually my great grandma, so my dad's grandma, lived there before we did, and she died in the house. And there was one night that I was watching TV because I didn't have TV in my room, so I was in the living room, and I vividly remember sitting on the floor in front of one of those TVs that looked like furniture. Do you remember those?
00:42:38
Speaker
and like a lady walked out of my bedroom which was my grandma's room and she had on like a long dress and like an apron tied around and her hair and a bun and she just like turned at me like turned to me smiled and waved at me and then walked into the kitchen.
00:42:56
Speaker
goosebumps. I swear I remember this and the next day I woke my dad up that morning and was like hey um I think I saw a ghost last night and like I was telling him about it and he was like that was your mamaw. Oh. And he said he had seen her too because she smiled and it was my grandma so. So it's like Casper friendly ghost. Yeah and then I never saw her again. Well here's what's scary about the Jamison family around the home there were odd messages found as well.
00:43:25
Speaker
For example, on a container outside of their home was scrawled the following, quote, three cats killed to date by, B-U-Y, people in this area. Witches don't like their, T-H-E-R-E, black cats killed.
00:43:48
Speaker
Now, their neighbor Nikki claims that Cherylin herself had written those to scare off some of the neighbors or neighborhood kids, whoever she thought was poisoning her cats. Oh, you best not poison my cat. A real witch is going to come out if you poison my cat. And so she said, Nikki said, well, she just did this to try to kind of scare them away. And Nikki says that they had purchased witches Bibles as a joke, which again, now that is not a joking matter. No. Nor Maggie.
00:44:18
Speaker
are some of the other elements that I'm getting ready to tell you. Oh no. Number one, also written around the home, not obviously to scare neighbors. Look inside their house. Inside the house. So it's seemingly for the family where notes like quote, get out
00:44:36
Speaker
Satan. So it seems to me that they did think these spirits were demons, right? Not friendly ones. No, they don't smile and wave. Number two, Connie, Cherylin's mom, tells us that Cherylin called herself a witch and told her mother that the house was haunted. That she thought maybe it was constructed on top of an Indian burial ground.
00:45:04
Speaker
Okay, so I think if you're calling yourself a witch and you have a witch's Bible, telling your pastor that you think your house is haunted is a little... Like, what's the word I'm looking for there? Like, that doesn't make sense. How can you be a witch?
00:45:22
Speaker
and talk to your pastor about demon, like. And I will be the first to admit, I don't understand like the Wiccan religion. Yeah, I don't either. So I don't get how it works. I don't know if there's like a contact with the spirit world or if that's something different. So when we say pastor though, we're saying, we're like pastor of a church, not pastor of a like. Exactly.
00:45:43
Speaker
But then that leads me to believe maybe she wasn't part of the Wiccan religion because then why would she have a pastor? That's what I'm saying. That doesn't make sense. You're right. Number three, Nikki also admitted, this is the neighbor, that she believed the house to be haunted also and claimed that, quote, whenever I went there, I felt a horrible presence.
Murder-Suicide Speculation
00:46:03
Speaker
I would leave so down and depressed, it's hard to describe. Once I was in the living room and a sort of gray mist descended down the stairs, it really scared me. She, Cherilyn, told me on a couple of occasions, Bobby, who was such a gentle man, would suddenly come to her and his eyes would be completely dead and black like he was possessed.
00:46:31
Speaker
end quote. No, ma'am. No, ma'am. This is creepy. I have chill bones. Yeah, the first time somebody looks at me and their eyes are dead like they're possessed, moving out of the house. And some gray mist comes floating around. Did you take a steamy shower, Bob? Because that's the only reason I should see something steamy. Right, when that bathroom door opens. Yeah, and number four.
00:46:54
Speaker
Recently, Bobby asked the preacher if he knew where Bobby could find quote, special bullets to shoot the spirits. Didn't know that was a thing. Yeah, didn't either. So, could it be something like this? Or maybe Maggie, the explanation for their deaths could be linked back to not spiritual demons, but to their own inner demons.
00:47:22
Speaker
could either Cherylin's or Bobby's depression, and you mentioned this at the beginning, have been so extreme that it led one of them to commit this murder-suicide. That's true. I mean, that kind of could explain why all their stuff was left in the vehicle. Mm-hmm, because you wouldn't need it. Yeah. It would explain this 11-page letter. True, kind of like a suicide note.
00:47:49
Speaker
It would explain why the gun isn't there, but here's the biggest thing that you'd have to explain if that is the reason. Why was the murder weapon never found? Because you can't hide a gun after you've committed suicide. And that brown suitcase. Right. You can't commit suicide and then hide the gun that you've used. Unless you come back as a spirit. Didn't even think about that.
00:48:12
Speaker
Could be. Yeah. Could be. So Maggie, which theory do you think makes the most sense to you? Or maybe not makes the most sense, but you're more inclined to believe.
Invitation for Listener Theories and Discussion
00:48:23
Speaker
I think the white supremacist story. Well, because there's that anonymous woman. Yeah. The anonymous woman was what really sold me on that one. And I think it would explain why their bodies were kind of off the beaten track and laid a certain way.
00:48:40
Speaker
Well, and even though that border had an alibi, obviously, you know, he did not like other races. He made that comment so he could have been part of that group and then... Yeah, had ties to it and like had connections, so to say. Right, right. Yeah, I go with that one. Now, listeners, we want to hear from you. Join us on our Facebook page and tell us which theory you believe.
00:49:03
Speaker
After all, as Maggie and I always say, the more discussion there is for these cases, the more potential there is for finding answers. In Graham Noble's article, the Latimer County Sheriff told reporters the following, quote, a lot of investigators would love to have as many leads as we do. The problem is they point in so many different directions, end quote. Could it be murder suicide? A hit man hired by Bob Senior?
00:49:32
Speaker
A family who wandered a bit too far and got lost? A drug deal gone bad? A situation of stumbling upon a meth lab and witnessing something they shouldn't have? A curse? A demon possession? Just like the cause of their disappearance, the cause of the deaths of Bobby, Cherylin, and Madison are equally inconclusive.
00:49:56
Speaker
Cherylin's friend Nikki urged, quote, I would give anything to find out the truth and I don't think this is over. But I've spent so much time searching. I just don't know where else to look, end quote.
00:50:10
Speaker
Anyone with any information to help guide law enforcement as well as Nikki in that future search is asked to contact the Latimer County Sheriff's Department at 918-465-2161. Let's just hope, as I do, that the answers are in this world and not the supernatural one. Either way,
00:50:37
Speaker
I have a sneaking suspicion that I won't be getting much sleep tonight.
00:50:42
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
00:51:12
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.