Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of our podcast.
Speaker: My name is Chris McNutt and I'm part of the progressive education nonprofit human restoration project.
Speaker: Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this is brought to you by our supporters, three of whom are Darren Oshkianowski, Kimberly Baker and Karen Sadati.
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Speaker: Today, we're joined by Mike Tinoco.
Speaker: Mike is a full-time public school teacher from California and author of Heart at the Center, an educator's guide to sustaining love, hope, and community through nonviolence pedagogy.
Speaker: Goldie Mohammed called the book, quote, an urgent call for truth, love and justice for every educator and community member who deeply dreams of and seeks peace.
Speaker: Further, Mike is a certified Kingian nonviolence and center for nonviolent communication trainer who provides workshops around the country.
Speaker: And he's an award winning beatboxer.
Speaker: So thank you, Mike, for joining us on the podcast today.
Speaker: Thank you for having me, Chris.
Speaker: Happy to be here.
Speaker: course.
Speaker: And I just want to dive right into really the framework for the book, which is in part based on the concept that you're leading and coaching throughout the country, Martin Luther King's Kingian nonviolence, but also the nonviolence pedagogy that's shaped by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg's work, as well as the martial art Aikido.
Speaker: Could you just briefly walk us through what that nonviolence pedagogy framework is?
Speaker: Yeah, I would say in a nutshell, my practice draws from these three distinct practices and traditions, and there's a lot of overlap with them because they're so deeply grounded in nonviolence and love.
Speaker: This framework really is about centering relationality, creating and sustaining community, and trying to dissolve forms of violence that manifest in the ways that we
Speaker: act and some of the ways that we speak, even some of the ideas we may hold.
Speaker: And so it's trying to hold this consciousness of moving ever closer toward a world of nonviolence, one that is free of harm to the greatest extent possible, and trying to restore and transform relationships, particularly when there's ruptures, when there's intense conflict.
Speaker: And so these three philosophies and traditions and ways of being have greatly supported me
Speaker: in my teaching, but also just in my personal life as a man of color, as a father, as a friend, as a person, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: The way that you weave it within the classroom is really interesting because when you talk about a nonviolent pedagogy, I think that folks
Speaker: might read that title and instantly think this is a book about quote unquote classroom management or about like, you know, keeping pro social attitudes within the classroom.
Speaker: But you're really talking about something that's much more holistic, something that gets into academics, that gets into relationship building, that gets into education.
Speaker: how we share power with students in the classroom.
Speaker: And you weave that into that warrior scholar principle stuff.
Speaker: Before I ask more about that, though, could you briefly walk listeners through how that's incorporated through the warrior scholar principles inside your classroom?
Speaker: Yeah, I'll first start by just saying the warrior scholar concept is not something that I created.
Speaker: I first learned about it when I was studying the work of educator Jeff Duncan Andrade, who was based in East Oakland, has been an educator for like 30 plus years.
Speaker: He's also a professor at SF State.
Speaker: And my understanding is that concept is something that comes from the Hagakure, which is a book on samurai.
Speaker: And so it's something that he didn't come up with either.
Speaker: He and his students would recite these concepts, these principles called the definite dozen, which are grounded in kind of a liberatory education, growing as human beings, really being committed to the struggle of empowering ourselves, empowering our communities, and disrupting ways in which schools can be oppressive and harmful.
Speaker: And so his definite dozen is really kind of, I think his way of, of practicing this mentality of a warrior scholar.
Speaker: Similarly for me,
Speaker: As I've studied Aikido in particular, Morihei Ushiba, the founder of Aikido, the martial art, describes the way of a warrior as something that's really been misunderstood, something that's really grounded heavily in violence.
Speaker: And he offers a different way of thinking of what a warrior is, which is someone who is really driven by love and committed to fighting for people, but in a way where we're not like destroying.
Speaker: So that might strike people as a kind of paradox, like how can you practice a martial art that's not intended to harm or that's not trying to inflict pain and violence.
Speaker: And while there are techniques and movements in Aikido that can certainly cause harm or wound an opponent if one deems it necessary, the goal is always to try to create harmony.
Speaker: And so I was really influenced by that.
Speaker: that idea of a warrior being someone that's trying to create and bring together and not destroy and create division.
Speaker: And that's not to suggest that that's what Jeff Duncan Andrade was trying to do, right?
Speaker: But for me, like I wanted something that was explicitly grounded in nonviolence
Speaker: And so in my own classroom, we have six principles of a warrior scholar, as I understand a warrior scholar to be, based on my own interpretation, my own study.
Speaker: And I can share those briefly here and then answer your question if that's helpful about like, well, what does that look like?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I write about this in chapter, I think it's chapter two of the book, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker: The six principles are,
Speaker: One, love myself and others.
Speaker: My thoughts, words, and actions can build or destroy.
Speaker: Two, discipline myself so that no one else has to.
Speaker: I'm in control of my own life.
Speaker: Three, stay committed and grow.
Speaker: Never, ever give up.
Speaker: Four, speak and listen with an open heart and mind.
Speaker: Honor differences and see people's humanity.
Speaker: Five, be of service to others.
Speaker: Help people succeed and thrive.
Speaker: And six, fight for what's right.
Speaker: Be on the side of justice.
Speaker: So these six principles are really a foundation.
Speaker: They are infused through what we do as a class.
Speaker: So that ranges from like the content itself, like looking at stories where we're able to really sink into the heart space and practice empathy that shows up when we're sharing our own stories, when we're doing
Speaker: maybe the kids are sharing poems or they're sharing personal narratives or whatever it might be.
Speaker: And then we're, we're maybe writing positive notes for each other, like really trying to honor each other's stories.
Speaker: Sometimes it's just reflecting on like choices we're making, like what needs are we attending to and what impact might that have on others in this space?
Speaker: So I'm thinking particularly principle two, discipline myself so that no one else has to, like, I'm not in the business of trying to punish my kids.
Speaker: I'm always trying to support them and reflecting on if there's something that I see them doing that maybe is like a distraction or disruption, I'll always try to be inquisitive about it and invite them to reflect on like, what needs are you attending to by doing this thing?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: The principles are kind of woven throughout.
Speaker: I'm always asking myself like, okay, what is the content?
Speaker: What are we doing?
Speaker: Why are we doing it?
Speaker: How are we doing it?
Speaker: And these six principles are kind of like
Speaker: the North Star that guides me as the teacher, but it's also bigger than just like what we're doing.
Speaker: It's like a vision that I'm hoping that we can hold together, something that the kids can see themselves being part of, that it's a kind of collective identity and that I'm hoping we're doing something different than just the regular business of school.
Speaker: Like I want the kids to feel that.
Speaker: And I think most of them do.
Speaker: There's something that you said that really sparked a thought here, and this is going to be very unfinished, so this might not make any sense, so fingers crossed, which is you mentioned this idea of Aikido being often misunderstood or perhaps even misapplied as something that's a form of violence because you're quite literally incorporating fighting into the practice.
Speaker: And I wonder about how that relates then to also how a lot of folks might envision Aikido
Speaker: education as a practice.
Speaker: So as as we know, like the history of public education has had its ups and downs, but a lot of folks, especially from like historically underserved communities have been harmed by education.
Speaker: And it's been seen that like as an educator that you might be the person who is inflicting violence upon the young people.
Speaker: It's most extreme, right?
Speaker: So I'm just curious about like those parallels, just really interesting to me about this idea of using education as like a weapon for good as in kind of using almost in self-defense in order to equip young people to have that shared power and opportunity versus a more historic or oppressive UF education as something that's been seemed to tear people down or like separate folks or rank and file.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a really interesting parallel you're drawing.
Speaker: And I think part of what the pedagogy of nonviolence is
Speaker: asks of us or maybe more appropriately demands of us is that we're always self-interrogating and being reflective of like practices that might actually perpetuate harm even if we're not intending to right and as someone who works for represents like the institution of schooling like i know there's ways in which i may unwittingly do that even though like i myself am a practitioner of non-violence of certified trainer right um
Speaker: Because we're just working in the system that's saturated with just ways of being in systems that have not served kids in the fullest way.
Speaker: That's really serving their humanity.
Speaker: So for example, one thing that I think most teachers would find pretty innocuous and perhaps even necessary is the idea of, quote unquote, managing kids, having classroom management.
Speaker: And I totally understand that.
Speaker: When I think about my first year
Speaker: And to an extent, even my second year of teaching, like the challenge of trying to hold a space where like we're maximizing the conditions for like deep, rich learning, like there's got to be stuff in place that will facilitate that.
Speaker: So I want to empathize with just the importance of like being able to do that where it's just not chaos, right?
Speaker: It's not pandemonium in the room.
Speaker: But I think that
Speaker: calls to have like strong classroom management, quote unquote, can veer us into a place of like having control over kids where we're like supplanting their autonomy and their sense of choice where kids then act in ways they're motivated, motivated by fear.
Speaker: Even if it might not seem that way, it instills this idea, reinforces this idea that like, you've got to listen to authority or else.
Speaker: and at the extreme it's like about it's dominating right and um i'm not in the business of trying to perpetuate play into this idea of like dominating other human beings there's so much
Speaker: evidence and examples of like violence that's a result of that of dominating others and so that's just one one example of like where i'm trying to be conscious of like how do i disrupt that and be transparent with the kids like this doesn't mean like free-for-all let's just do whatever the heck we want but going back to needs and we can talk more about that i imagine in this conversation what do i mean by needs but yeah i just i appreciate the the parallel you were drawing there
Speaker: there's an art to that sharing power piece.
Speaker: And in fact, I mean, Duncan Andrada, the author that you mentioned, co-wrote the art of critical pedagogy, which is kind of all about that exact concept, which shout out to that book, amazing book as well.
Speaker: But regardless, the reason I'm thinking about that is one of the things that really struck me in your work, because it's something that we also see a lot.
Speaker: And I almost laughed out loud when I read it,
Speaker: The way in which so many teacher professional development structures are set up surrounding curriculum development, curriculum alignment, et cetera, I think often distracts us from
Speaker: the common sense or the purpose of education or like why we're doing this work.
Speaker: You mentioned this anecdote on how you'll often bring up these warrior scholar principles.
Speaker: And then sometimes some teachers will ask like, well, how do you do that while also getting to the curriculum?
Speaker: And those are the types of questions that often want me at least to like bang my head into a wall.
Speaker: Cause it's like, Oh, like one of the principles is literally the,
Speaker: Being of service to others.
Speaker: If our curriculum doesn't allow us to equip students to be of service to others, then what in the world is the point of all of the content that we're teaching?
Speaker: And it just seems like the first principles get messed up when we get too focused on more of those bureaucratic or state standard, like aligned principles or
Speaker: kind of like the wonky bureaucratic school stuff, as opposed to just thinking more holistically about these are human beings in our room who are trying to hopefully make leaders and change makers.
Speaker: People are going to m ake a better world.
Speaker: It isn't exclusively competent production then followed by, you know, these these nice to have things that would make folks good people, quote unquote.
Speaker: Mm hmm.
Speaker: Mm hmm.
Speaker: No, absolutely.
Speaker: part of my answer to that question too is like how do we do this in addition to everything else it's like well this is the curriculum it's part and parcel it is the curriculum and it's without the principles like i just remember how much harder it was uh to teach stuff to to have things sort of cohere together and like i just things were much more piecemeal
Speaker: when I was an earlier teacher, when I didn't have a very clear vision for why am I doing this, toward what ends, and how is it actually supporting us beyond just college readiness, knowing the standards.
Speaker: That's not good enough.
Speaker: And this is like, I came from a pretty progressive social justice-based teacher education program, and I still wasn't quite ready.
Speaker: I wasn't at the place, certainly not where I'm at now,
Speaker: And so the principals, the kids know, like they, they, they can feel that like what we're doing is yes, it's English class, but it's, it's, it's beyond just like the reading and writing.
Speaker: Like they, they, they, they know that they're really evolving and growing.
Speaker: And I just had so many kids share that, um, you know, they've been able to connect with people in the space that they didn't think they would have, or that they've learned more about themselves.
Speaker: They appreciate excavating their own stories.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And oftentimes when it gets to, when we're at the places and units where kids are writing about themselves, sharing parts of their stories, maybe not surprising, there's a lot who find that very difficult.
Speaker: They're not used to that.
Speaker: And a lot of them, like they've never done it before, like coming into our class.
Speaker: And I'll often ask the kids, I'll say, okay, I'll first empathize with where they're at, especially if there's resistance to the idea of wanting to share things aloud.
Speaker: And then I'll just ask like,
Speaker: What does that suggest about schools that like you haven't done this before, that this is not a normalized part of your experience?
Speaker: Like, what does that say?
Speaker: And I just kind of leave kids with that to just invite them to reflect on that question, not as a way to sort of like get them to do what I want, quote unquote, but like just to really help them see that like what we're doing here is something
Speaker: is disruptive, it is different, and it is trying to honor the fullness of who they are so that we can center our stories.
Speaker: Life is text, right?
Speaker: So yeah, it's something that I'm in dialogue with about other teachers and educators who ask, but also with my own kids, because it's a journey, right?
Speaker: These principles are something that needs to be practiced over time.
Speaker: And yeah, it takes a lot of work.
Speaker: Yeah, how do we help teachers
Speaker: I would say even like rediscover that because I'm imagining that most teachers, if they're going into the profession, went into it with that in mind.
Speaker: I don't think a lot of folks become, let's say, science teachers exclusively because they want to have kids learn about
Speaker: the chemical elements.
Speaker: They probably have a more grandiose, aspirational, like, I want to build a better world.
Speaker: I want to help young people see the power of science, et cetera.
Speaker: They want to have these more aspirational goals.
Speaker: How do we help teachers?
Speaker: I don't know if move away from is the best terminology, but focus more on the whole child as opposed to kind of hyper obsessing or becoming so ingrained within a system that focuses on standardized test score standards, et cetera.
Speaker: Yeah, I really appreciate that question because I think as someone at once, like early in my career, like I remember being like really kind of fixated on standards, just a lot of pressure to do that.
Speaker: And also just wanting to like be competent as a teacher, right?
Speaker: Like I wanted to know, like, how do I teach inferences and character analysis or whatever?
Speaker: And I just remember getting a little too lost in that.
Speaker: Like the standards as the starting place was actually making it really hard for me to have something that felt
Speaker: as relevant and engaging as it could have been.
Speaker: So part of the answer to that question, I think for me is having clarity around like, what is the vision of the world that you have?
Speaker: And, or like, what is your vision for what schools could be?
Speaker: Or what is your vision for what a classroom could be?
Speaker: Like in the most idealist
Speaker: And the most ideal situation, like what could that classroom slash school slash world look like?
Speaker: And I write about this in chapters one and two of the book, like where I'm inviting readers to really think about that and to ground it in needs.
Speaker: And part of what nonviolent communication helps us understand is like all humans have the same shared set of needs and that all behaviors are attempts to meet one or more needs.
Speaker: And so I know that for myself, when I got clarity that like what I'm really interested in as an educator and as a human being is having a world that's grounded in a beloved community that's trying to be free of violence and free of oppression and that really values interconnectedness.
Speaker: Like I want that both in my community, the world on a grand scale, but I want that in my classroom too.
Speaker: And so when I think about that, that very clear sort of vision
Speaker: I can think of things we can do that will help facilitate that.
Speaker: Activities, standards, whatever.
Speaker: As long as I can ground it in what are the needs that this supports, then I can move closer to that vision.
Speaker: And if we can articulate that with the kids, then it offers a little bit more about why are we doing this beyond just like, oh, it's on the pacing guide.
Speaker: So many kids will ask, why are we doing this?
Speaker: Why are we doing this?
Speaker: Just in general, right?
Speaker: They just ask that, especially in math class and these classes where the topics might seem just disconnected.
Speaker: I think having an articulated vision can be really helpful for that.
Speaker: Yeah, having that love and care piece.
Speaker: also move into like a shared power or like autonomy piece, both for kids being able to like be able to even question what it is that they're learning, but also kind of take more charge of what they're doing.
Speaker: But also I would imagine that also applies from the administrative level to the teacher level.
Speaker: So giving teachers the opportunity to question
Speaker: the different bureaucratic practices that they're doing or being able to have creative control over how they pace out their class or how they work with students.
Speaker: Because as we know, kids aren't going to be able to have the environments that we're talking about
Speaker: if teachers aren't able to have similar types of environments to express their own control without some like creative non-compliance, of course.
Speaker: I mean, you can do whatever you want, but it certainly makes things a lot easier if administrators are supportive of that work.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And that part is critical right there, having the leeway or autonomy
Speaker: support to be able to do those things where you're not bound by rigid sort of pacing guides or worse scripted curriculum um thankfully like i i'm in a situation where i there's a there's a good level of autonomy um and that affords me the the space to really like slow down and maybe that'll come up later in our conversation about like slow urgency um where i'm able to focus on the things that feel really important
Speaker: Um, while still, of course, you know, having everything standards aligned and getting the kids to do like the writing genres and stuff that the district wants them to do and all that.
Speaker: Um, but yeah, I've, I have enough experience too, where like, I, I have a sense of like, okay, what's really going to serve my kids or like what, what's going to like not work as well.
Speaker: And what, what'll fall flat, you know, like there's, there's, there's years of like having some stuff that like, I, I've been able to learn a lot through trial and error about like, what's going to work and just like pacing wise, like
Speaker: Roughly like how many weeks is good for this this thing?
Speaker: How many you know how many weeks do we want to dedicate to this other thing?
Speaker: So it's definitely something that's taken time and it still takes time still figuring it out.
Speaker: But yeah, I'm in my 14th year.
Speaker: So it's taken taken some while taking a while.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, let's just talk about slow urgency because it's a principle that reminded me a lot of emergent strategy, which I'm a huge fan of Adrian Brown's work.
Speaker: Um, where she has a principle, which is the, there's always enough time for the right work as in, it's always okay to slow down.
Speaker: It's always okay to not have everything figured out, but it requires us to not rush into things or throw everything out if it doesn't work or, you know, it gives us permission to fail in many ways.
Speaker: I'm curious about your interpretation of this idea of slow urgency and how that then incorporates into the classroom, especially given the
Speaker: everything that's going on in education generally, whether that be kind of the post COVID, well, post at least 2020 COVID era and school shutdowns, but also like moving into, there's an election a few days as of recording, a lot of stuff going on there in terms of the education world, a lot of fear, a lot of debate, I suppose.
Speaker: What does slow urgency look like in your practice?
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you for the question.
Speaker: I'll speak to some aspects of it because there's so much and there's like in the book, there's just there's two chapters dedicated to it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But part of what it means to me is really attuning our kind of orientation to time, like the way the pace in which we sort of move about.
Speaker: like really aligning that to the breath.
Speaker: And what I mean by that is like the breath in its sort of natural state, there's just this ease, there's this kind of calm when we're in this kind of homeostasis state.
Speaker: And like, I want that for like the teaching and learning.
Speaker: And the reason why I say that is because I just remember how stressful it was being a student myself.
Speaker: the kind of hustle bustle grind culture of college, especially in like the all nighters and stuff.
Speaker: And that's so not necessary.
Speaker: And not only is it not necessary, it's very harmful.
Speaker: And I see it so much in my own students, particularly those taking like AP classes, but even those who are not taking AP classes, like the kids are just stressed out.
Speaker: And yes, like there is, we all know like stress, there are,
Speaker: stress is like a normal physiological thing.
Speaker: Like it's, it's, it can be healthy to have like some, but like the chronic perpetual stress, this kind of manufactured stress is not something that we need.
Speaker: And so I don't want to perpetuate that.
Speaker: I've seen like just how harmful and toxic it is.
Speaker: And so I've been really intentional about slowing down where like,
Speaker: Yes, we might not cover XYZ.
Speaker: We might not read as many books or whatever.
Speaker: And like, I'm okay with that.
Speaker: If it means like the learning we are engaging in is rich, it's deep, the students are still getting all the skills and that they're actually enjoying the learning.
Speaker: It's something that's supporting students.
Speaker: them right now, not just later.
Speaker: Because I think kids are told all the time, like, you need this for the real world.
Speaker: Well, are we talking about, like, five years from now, like, after they graduate, four years from now, whatever?
Speaker: Like, the real world is also right here, right now.
Speaker: And I want to be responsive to the world that the kids and myself are currently living in, not just the one, like, after they graduate.
Speaker: With that said, there's a seeming or maybe real paradox in that
Speaker: I'm thinking about like for those of us who work particularly in schools like with high needs populations, historically marginalized groups, you know, migrant populations, kids of color, high poverty schools, et cetera.
Speaker: The stakes are really, really high.
Speaker: And for a lot of the kids who are, you know, maybe we quote unquote below grade level and like there's a sense of urgency to like make sure our kids are graduating and like they have the skills they need to get to college and beyond, et cetera.
Speaker: Like that is so important.
Speaker: That's,
Speaker: But I'm not going to feed into that if it looks like we're just cramming and teaching bell to bell, like just packing stuff in.
Speaker: So yeah, like we need to have like volume of writing practice.
Speaker: We need to do that.
Speaker: We need to be practitioners of our craft.
Speaker: And what feels really radical to me is to be able to slow down and be like, you know what?
Speaker: We're going to start every single class period with a few mindful breaths.
Speaker: Like, let's just slow down.
Speaker: I'm going to put my feet back or feet flat back straight.
Speaker: Going to invite y'all to join me if you would like.
Speaker: Most of the kids do.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: We're going to turn off the light for a moment.
Speaker: Let's just, let's just settle into this space, ease in before we jump into the work, so to speak.
Speaker: The kids appreciate that.
Speaker: We're going to take a little stretch break midway through most days.
Speaker: We have 95-minute classes.
Speaker: I wouldn't want to sit in a chair for 95 minutes straight.
Speaker: Take a little stretch break.
Speaker: Let's go walk outside and enjoy.
Speaker: Just let's take some fresh air.
Speaker: Let's normalize taking little breaks, not being bound by the quote-unquote official breaks of the school day.
Speaker: Okay?
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: And just like small ways in which we can just normalize just moving at a place at a pace that's that's more attuned to the breath.
Speaker: So I like to use the phrase like teaching breath to breath rather than belt about.
Speaker: If I may, I'd like to read a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King that to me, like really connects to what we're talking about.
Speaker: He says.
Speaker: I want to read just one more.
Speaker: King also said, and this was nearly 10 years prior, following the success of the Montgomery bus boycott, he says, for almost four years now, I've been faced with the responsibility of trying to do as one man what five or six people ought to be doing.
Speaker: What I've been doing is giving, giving, giving, and not stopping to retreat and meditate like I should to come back.
Speaker: If the situation has not changed, I will be a physical and psychological wreck.
Speaker: I have to reorganize my personality and reorient my life.
Speaker: And so what I'm appreciating there is King's own recognition that the kind of, I don't know if they were using the term grand culture at that time, but just the nonstop pace was like taking a toll on him.
Speaker: And yes, like it is the, the change that we need is a result of the work of dedicated individuals, as he says, and communities working together.
Speaker: So it's a both and, but I'm not going to,
Speaker: compromise my commitment to normalizing a way of being that is really like helping us be attuned to taking care of ourselves.
Speaker: And the last thing I'll say that feels important for me to name is I think when we move too quick and we're kind of on autopilot, we lose connection with our own needs.
Speaker: We lose connection with our own needs and tend to operate from a place of like, oh, I have to do this or else blank.
Speaker: I know that to be true for myself.
Speaker: And so when I'm moving at a pace that's more slower, that's more spacious, I can have discernment around what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.
Speaker: I can remind myself that I'm choosing to do X, Y, and Z because it's meeting certain needs.
Speaker: So if I'm choosing...
Speaker: to say, I don't know, like we're going to dedicate a class period to sharing our narratives.
Speaker: Well, one of the needs that that's going to meet is care, being seen, being heard, community.
Speaker: Like we could move on to the next unit, but like attending to those needs feels really important.
Speaker: And so I'd rather do that first.
Speaker: Another thing can wait another day, right?
Speaker: So yeah, so there's
Speaker: there's a lot I could say, but I hope that that answers your question for now.
Speaker: Part of your question for now.
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: I think that's, that's super powerful.
Speaker: And it reminds me a lot.
Speaker: So I was a teacher for 10 years and something that I really struggled with early on.
Speaker: But I mean, to be honest with you also like year nine, year 10 as well was this idea of always feeling like every single day needed to be
Speaker: a perfect lesson or a perfect opportunity for kids and like being hyper structured and rigid with like lesson plans and things of that nature.
Speaker: It took me a long time to realize that day to day, most kids probably are not
Speaker: well, not only not hyper-engaged with the class, but also probably aren't going to learn every single thing that you wrote down.
Speaker: So just going through the checklist of I hit standard two, four, and six doesn't mean that kids actually learned standard two, four, and six.
Speaker: And over time, it helped me kind of recognize that even from my own schooling experience, you tend to remember that
Speaker: I don't know, five, 10 at most major ideas that you learned in a class or concepts.
Speaker: And then day to day where all of the structures and building blocks of getting to those five to 10 major ideas.
Speaker: So as a social studies teacher, I was always, and I covered like modern American history.
Speaker: A big part of my goal as a teacher was honestly like recognizing the horrors of war because that was a huge part of the curriculum was like World War II, Vietnam,
Speaker: And finally, the standards were written in a way that it was more about like this battle, like what was the importance of the Battle of Stalingrad.
Speaker: But as an educator, I mean, the reason why I became a social studies teacher is that I want people to recognize like Stalingrad wasn't just a turning point of the war.
Speaker: Like we're talking about thousands upon thousands of people dying and how terrible this is and like why we probably should avoid just rushing into wars, et cetera.
Speaker: So all of that to say, yes,
Speaker: like understanding the importance of different standards is important.
Speaker: But really what I wanted was to build a culture in my classroom where day after day, as we were covering these things, kid discovered the theme of like being anti-war in many ways, shape or forms.
Speaker: And how I got there was, was slow.
Speaker: We're talking about many, many days, many days that probably didn't work.
Speaker: Things that I did wrong, things that just like the vibe of the day was off and that was totally fine.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: All that said, there's also something to be said about something you mentioned regarding having that nonviolence pedagogy when it comes to going slow is, as a teacher...
Speaker: it often feels like you're breaking the rules to go slow.
Speaker: Like you're doing something wrong.
Speaker: Someone's gonna walk by and say like, well, why are you not teaching bell to bell?
Speaker: Why are you not doing these different things?
Speaker: Especially in a time where the concept of social emotional learning, SEL has become weaponized.
Speaker: A brief anecdote on that, which really surprised me.
Speaker: So next week our organization will be at CASEL, the Center of Social Emotional Learning out in Chicago.
Speaker: And they've already sent an email out.
Speaker: It's like 10 paragraphs long on what to expect in regards to potential, like, I don't know if violence is the right word, but like verbal violence, like protests, people trying to sneak in, being secretly recorded, like fear, protests, how to report things to security.
Speaker: It's quite shocking at an FPL conference.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: We have that threat at the institutional level of not doing things in a more traditional pedagogical way of like not covering standards bell to bell instead of taking those breaks.
Speaker: But then we also have a larger like federal slash cultural level where the concept itself is becoming weaponized politically.
Speaker: There's probably a question buried in there, but I'm curious about your thoughts about any and all of that.
Speaker: Yeah, it's scary to see that unfolding right now.
Speaker: And like, I'm really like my heart goes out to the educators and students and families, communities, just like directly impacted by that.
Speaker: Like, I'm not experiencing that right now.
Speaker: Like, we in the community where I teach, at least not right now, and hopefully never will experience that, you know, but it's infuriating.
Speaker: It's, it's frightening to think about like, well, what, what,
Speaker: like broader implications can this have?
Speaker: Like it's already having repercussions.
Speaker: Teachers are already losing their jobs.
Speaker: Kids are already being denied to learn about themselves and other communities and histories that like they absolutely need to learn about where there's, you know, like, and I'm thinking particularly about like LGBTQ students, right?
Speaker: Where like they can't even feel fully safe in some of their schools and classrooms.
Speaker: So that really weighs on me.
Speaker: And I don't know, one of the things that comes to mind is like, for those of us who can do it more easily without the risk of like losing our jobs, like, I feel like we have a responsibility to do everything we can to tout the teaching and learning that is really about like humanizing our kids.
Speaker: And that's grounded in love and empathy.
Speaker: And for those who are battling that, or like,
Speaker: against a critical race theory, SEL, et cetera.
Speaker: Like I just would hope that they can really educate themselves and not just go off of like talking points.
Speaker: where things are really being misconstrued.
Speaker: And as a nonviolence trainer, like I am also challenging myself to try to guess like, well, what are the needs behind the opposition?
Speaker: Because what I don't want to do, and I'm just speaking for myself, like I don't want to feed into the us, them, the kind of this binary that reifies so much violence in the world as it is.
Speaker: Like the us versus them kind of binary is like at the root of a lot of violence.
Speaker: So I'm trying to not play into that.
Speaker: while still recognizing like I'm pissed off like I have a lot of anger when I see all this stuff and these pushes to like demonize SEL and try to wipe it out like it's so needed it's so essential right and the same thing with ethnic studies like all these efforts to try to like get rid of this stuff like I'm not okay with that so I think it's like a multi-pronged sort of response I guess it's like if there are folks who if there's infrastructure I guess or like ways to like help facilitate like
Speaker: the opposition and I guess getting clarity around like, okay, well, what are their needs behind the fear or the anger that they might have?
Speaker: And like, what are other strategies they can attend to instead of just trying to dismantle these programs, right?
Speaker: Like that's one strategy.
Speaker: It's a very extreme strategy and it's not one that's actually going to serve our kids and our teachers.
Speaker: So like what else could be done instead so that they can maybe attend to their own needs?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: So maybe there's like some future work for me to do like on a potentially like broader level.
Speaker: I'm not quite sure yet.
Speaker: Cause right now, like I'm a full-time classroom teacher and I'm just, you know,
Speaker: But I'm wanting there to be some hopeful way of diffusing the noise and stopping, like you said, the weaponization of, I don't know, calls to destroy these programs and...
Speaker: approaches to education that just really feel essential.
Speaker: And there's one other thing, kind of connecting to what we were talking about a moment ago with like the slowing down and stuff like, and what you were saying, like about trying to help your kids, what would you say, like be sort of like anti-war?
Speaker: Like I'm trying to help my kids
Speaker: practice skills and ways of being that will serve them for life.
Speaker: And I don't just mean like reading and writing, like, of course I want them to be like competent and skillful, beautiful readers, writers, but also like have taking with them ways of being that will serve them when they're in the workplace, whether with their families or doing whatever work they want to do that feels really meaningful or just like day to day.
Speaker: Like I would so want for them to be able to see the importance of like mindful breathing, for example,
Speaker: And so I would hope that anyone who's opposed to that can see the value of like, here's why it's important.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: When we think about the mental health crisis facing many of our young people, like, well, can we interrogate like why that is and what are ways of being that can like really help them?
Speaker: So I don't know.
Speaker: I that's that's my kind of partial answer to that question.
Speaker: That's what comes up for me at the moment.
Speaker: I mean, I think that's why your book is so powerful and important, though, for teachers, which is on two levels.
Speaker: The first is that I would imagine that many of the folks who incorporate strategies and systems that you're proposing in regards to nonviolence curriculum and pedagogy, the folks that are on the
Speaker: that are in the classrooms, the students that are experiencing this are likely not going to see them as nefarious or wrong or in some way destroying public education as SEL is often framed.
Speaker: And as a result,
Speaker: I would imagine that many families, caregivers, et cetera, don't as well.
Speaker: It's that classic, like, you know, public education is the worst thing ever, but my school is doing great.
Speaker: Or in this case, like SELs, you know, a terrible practice, but SEL the way that this teacher's doing it at the school that my kids go to is totally fine.
Speaker: So being able to incorporate those SEL practices into the classroom helps demystify what it is that it is we're talking about, because at the end of the day,
Speaker: It's a very strange thing to be upset about.
Speaker: I mean, all of these things are, but SEL at a baseline is just such a basic idea that it seems bizarre that it's even up for debate.
Speaker: And I would imagine that by incorporating strategies from the book,
Speaker: It just helps folks see what it is that we're talking about in the exact same way that like when we talk about social justice or any other principles, when we actually have a chance to talk about it, people come on board once they see what it is.
Speaker: Secondly, though, is that I think it helps equip teachers with a little bit of
Speaker: Opportunity for creative noncompliance, being able to kind of go against the grain and recognize that at a certain point, if you're in a district that is so mandated that you're not able to practice the things that you're talking about, at what point is it a step too far?
Speaker: Like at what point are you just simply upholding like delegitimizing and and hurtful practices towards kids?
Speaker: And how can you push back against that?
Speaker: And or find a space where you can.
Speaker: I struggle with saying that sometimes as I recognize the real economic ramifications of like leaving a position or what that looks like and what that means for kids that you're leaving behind.
Speaker: But at the exact same time, if you're not able to do any of these things because of district policies or school board policies, et cetera, then you're really just upholding the same dynamics that already existed despite being maybe nice about it.
Speaker: Mm hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And it goes back to something we were talking about at the top of our conversation around like what is nonviolence pedagogy and one of the core pieces there is like trying to disrupt violence and disrupting harm.
Speaker: And so if we're recognizing that there's something that's harmful, even if it maybe has like good intentions behind it, a policy, a system, whatever, we have to make a choice.
Speaker: And
Speaker: And I want to just own the privilege that some of us have where we don't necessarily, we're not as bound by certain things where we might have more leeway.
Speaker: And so we might have to make certain choices and there may be certain consequences that come with those choices.
Speaker: So yeah, it's hard.
Speaker: And I too am sensitive and mindful of the fact that for some folks, they cannot afford to lose their job.
Speaker: It's not so easy as just being able to find a new one right away.
Speaker: So I understand that.
Speaker: But I think part of why I've been able to shift into like this, this going all in on this current approach is because like I've seen things that just weren't serving my kids.
Speaker: And I've been willing to just be like, okay, like I'm going to do X, Y, Z. If there's some music I need to face as a result, so be it.
Speaker: Like I'm willing to do that because I'm very clear about needs of mine and for my kids that I'm choosing to meet, that I'm hoping to meet.
Speaker: Needs for autonomy, but also needs for hope, needs for creativity, needs for justice, needs for belonging.
Speaker: Things that tend to not be prioritized in a day-to-day, right, just in the school and system.
Speaker: So like I'm going to attend to those needs.
Speaker: And if anyone has an issue with that, then
Speaker: Well, I'll deal with that.
Speaker: Like we can have a conversation, but I'm not going to act.
Speaker: And I'm not going to give my power away by feeling like, oh, I have to do blank.
Speaker: I don't have to do anything.
Speaker: I'm choosing to do X, Y, Z because it's meeting my needs.
Speaker: Let's end then on like a positive proactive step.
Speaker: So you're a teacher.
Speaker: You're listening to this conversation.
Speaker: You want to disrupt the status quo.
Speaker: You want to practice a nonviolence pedagogy.
Speaker: You want to do these practices with your students.
Speaker: What's one thing we could do tomorrow based around the activities that you're utilizing?
Speaker: at the risk of like tooting my own horn, I would say like, I'd love for folks to read my book, but if they can't yet, or, you know, if that's coming later, there's a reason why we're talking about it.
Speaker: Well, and part of why I say that, like I say it kind of somewhat facetiously, but also, you know, like it's, it's, it's hard to just sort of, Oh, here's some like just quick strategies you could do.
Speaker: Like it is a holistic practice that takes a lot of time to develop.
Speaker: And you know, the book has like 10 chapters, right.
Speaker: Of like, here's how it can be practiced.
Speaker: But I think,
Speaker: One of the things that I would say that any teacher could do tomorrow is just ask your kids, like, what needs of yours are being met in school?
Speaker: Or you can even zoom in.
Speaker: What needs of yours are being met in our class?
Speaker: And there's a list of needs that you can find.
Speaker: If you just Google nonviolent communication human needs.
Speaker: you'll see a list pop up.
Speaker: You can just ask that question.
Speaker: And that's like a nonjudgmental question.
Speaker: It's sort of for information gathering.
Speaker: So you can have a sense of like, oh, okay, like what needs are we meeting in here?
Speaker: Is it mostly intellectual or hopefully like belonging needs?
Speaker: And that's not to say we have to meet everyone's needs at all times.
Speaker: It's not about that.
Speaker: It's just about being attuned to
Speaker: the multiple needs that we have and that we're not just privileging the head.
Speaker: And I would also say that if teachers can do that for themselves, what needs of yours are being met currently in the work that you are doing?
Speaker: And that could be like just in your school or just like the stuff that you're doing with your kids.
Speaker: Like, is it really serving you?
Speaker: Do you feel like you're restricted or kind of bound?
Speaker: Are there things you might be able to break from and veer into so that you can meet other needs of yours?
Speaker: So that's what I would say.
Speaker: And I have like my own list of needs and feelings in the book, if that's helpful for folks.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I appreciate the sharing, Mike.
Speaker: I appreciate the work.
Speaker: I should also shout out that it's really well written.
Speaker: A lot of like really cool examples and work thrown in.
Speaker: And I appreciate the fact that it's very actionable.
Speaker: It has a lot of workbook components that a lot of books in this genre do not.
Speaker: It's not exclusively just like my story or like positive vibes.
Speaker: It has
Speaker: actual implementable things throughout.
Speaker: It's also over 300 pages long, which is worth noting.
Speaker: It's quite the codex of various information that we can utilize.
Speaker: So I appreciate you coming on and talking more about it.
Speaker: Thanks so much for having me, Chris.
Speaker: Thank you for the shout out and for just carving out time to engage with the book.
Speaker: I really appreciate it.
Speaker: And this was a joy.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you again for listening to our podcast at Human Restoration Project.
Speaker: I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to start making change.
Speaker: If you enjoyed listening, please consider leaving us a review on your favorite podcast player.
Speaker: Plus, find a whole host of free resources, writings, and other podcasts all for free on our website, humanrestorationproject.org.
Speaker: Thank you.
