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017 // Make good decisions with Hugh (ristic) Ward
806 Plays2 days ago
How many decisions do you reckon you’ve made today?
It's probably the conscious ones that come to mind. Do I wear the red shirt or blue top? 1 coffee or 6.
Believe it or not, The Harvard Business Review states that adults can make around 35,000 decisions each day and many of those happen automatically and simultaneously.
When we head out into the wild places we love, or find ourselves in environments with a higher level of risk, some of these decisions (conscious or otherwise) can have some pretty intense consequences.
Today, I’m joined by Hugh Ward, co-owner of the Blue Mountains Climbing School, to learn about an easy tool that we can use every day, to help us make better decisions, smarter choices and have better adventures.
He talks us through the established acronym F.A.C.E.T.S, developed by Ian Mcammon, based upon the work of Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tsversky. It was designed to highlight common deficiencies in our decision making (Heuristic Traps) and to offer a tool to temper the choices we make in high consequence environments.
Excitingly, he then steps us through a NEW acronym, A.C.C.E.S.S. that he has developed with Climbing School co-owner and wife, Bridie Campbell, that works better with Australian outdoor environments. You can read more and DOWNLOAD their handy pocket guide here.
Resources
Article on the Climbing School blog
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Rescued' Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Rescued is a podcast of conversations with rescuers and those who've been rescued. It's about the lessons we learn about ourselves, the places we go and why, without judgment or shame, to help us have better adventures, manage risk and deal with the unexpected.
Decision-Making Insights from Harvard Study
00:00:23
Speaker
How many decisions do you reckon you've made today? Now, I'm thinking it's the conscious ones that come to mind. You know, do I wear the red shirt or the blue top? One coffee or six?
00:00:35
Speaker
Believe it or not, the Harvard Business Review states that adults can make around 35,000 decisions each day, and many of those happen automatically and simultaneously.
Hugh Ward's Decision-Making Tool
00:00:47
Speaker
Today, i'm joined by Hugh Ward, co-owner of the Blue Mountains Climbing School, to learn about an easy tool that we can use every day to help us make better decisions, smarter choices, and have better adventures.
Hugh's Upbringing and Climbing Passion
00:01:01
Speaker
Can we kick Hugh, I just would love people to know a little bit about your background and where you have come from in terms of, you know, your professional outdoors life and then how your interest in this area started. Yeah, I grew up in a very outdoorsy family.
00:01:19
Speaker
Bushwalking and canoeing canyoning was sort of normal. um One of the early memories that I have is my Uncle Johnny teaching me to abseil off the front porch in Concord.
00:01:32
Speaker
And abseiling consisted of him lowering me off the porch using a piece of Venetian blind cord. Oh, gosh. And after... um many, many attempts of this piece of cord rubbing over ah a sharp edge of a brick. He said, I think it's time to give this away.
00:01:49
Speaker
And I said, oh, one more, one more. And inevitably the Venetian blind cord broke and I crumped in on the driveway and did a bit of sulking. So I had ah had a very early, um i guess, introduction to outdoorsy stuff and and to risk.
Search and Rescue Experiences
00:02:04
Speaker
When I became, i guess, more um independent as a young adult, I kind of really got into climbing and that led me to climb and travel all over Australia into New Zealand and actually up into Alaska as well.
00:02:18
Speaker
When I was in Alaska, I was involved in a a big rescue, a climbing party in front of us, got into a bit of trouble. And um the guy that I was with, James, and i made took action basically that that saved lives. And I came back to Australia feeling really good about it and discovered this search and rescue organisation that at the time had the catchy name of the Bushwalking Wilderness Rescue Squad, um but has since been updated to BSAR.
00:02:43
Speaker
So BSAR is Bush Search and Rescue, and they're a a subunit of the SES, or the State Emergency Service. And basically they're the the people that in a ah crisis, you know, your roof gets blown off, um they get called in to to assist.
00:03:00
Speaker
And ah guess I'm in a ah specialist subunit, Bush Search and Rescue, as I said. Mm-hmm. We get tasked into remote and rugged locations, possibly overnight or for a number of days. And the expectation is that we're self-sufficient.
00:03:14
Speaker
Cool. So let's let's just dial back to when you were in Alaska with James on that on that incident. but What kind of things afterwards did you learn or lessons did you learn from being involved in that?
00:03:30
Speaker
I think... We were both in our early to mid-20s and we were both at an altitude that we'd not acclimatised properly to. And I think if I were back there now in a similar circumstance, I would have probably a number of days to rest and recover after that.
00:03:48
Speaker
the output of energy. But at the time, it seemed like ah you know the following day off was more than enough. And that decision to actually go for the summit the following day led to some more strife for us as well.
00:04:01
Speaker
James became quite altitudes sick and we needed to to descend and basically it it ended our trip. So I think some good lessons about maybe being a little bit more considered in our decision making when you came out of that trip.
The Complexity of Rescue Missions
00:04:15
Speaker
And then you said you came back and you joined the what's now called Bush Search and Rescue. And what kind of incidents or what kind of um situations do you get called to for that?
00:04:27
Speaker
it It could be a lot of different things. Often we're called into searches that have been run for a little while. So somebody's gone missing in ah a bushy location and the search area is becoming more and more complex and the terrain harder and harder to manage and but that's when we'll be called in.
00:04:48
Speaker
And frequently those actually don't have an outcome or might be wandering around in the bush for a couple of weeks before before the the search gets called off. and Another sort of tasking that we frequently get is around the bottom of cliffs.
00:05:04
Speaker
And I guess I'll just let the listeners fill in the the sorts of jobs that can come come from that. And very occasionally, we actually do get to be involved in a rescue where we go looking for a missing bushwalker and we find them and we we help them to get out.
00:05:21
Speaker
When that happens, it's pretty excellent. Yeah, I can imagine.
Transition to Professional Guiding
00:05:27
Speaker
and And just for um transparency here with everyone, so I'm also a member of the SES Bush Search and Rescue and i have worked with Hugh quite ah a lot in the past and i consider ah consider Hugh a good friend.
00:05:43
Speaker
So apart from joining the volunteer organisation, now you mentioned that you've been climbing a lot through your 20s and obviously since, you know, your uncle was throwing you over a balcony on Venetian blind cord and you got into climbing in a big way.
00:06:00
Speaker
how has that changed and progressed through your life and where has that sort of led you to be professionally where you are today? It's a good question. It has changed a lot but over the years, I guess, and it's always been a staple in my life. And I was ah a little bit nervous actually moving into it professionally because it's always been such an important escape from the the day-to-day drudgery of of work life or the the stressful parts of life. It's really difficult to think about or focus on those things when
00:06:35
Speaker
and you know when you're out hanging off a cliff and um i guess in well probably by about 2014 i'd moved full-time into guiding and you know that was a little bit of ah a lead-in doing the courses and working kind of part-time in the space before but being able to kind of take it on really full-time so i hold a handful of Australian qualifications. It's at four and diploma level in outdoor leadership, as it's now called, um with some specialty roping units, as well as an American qualification, the American Mountain Guides Association Rock Guiding Qual, which I've completed recently and was so certainly a ah very significant investment of time and effort.
00:07:20
Speaker
um So the day job for me now looks like I could be guiding people in canyons or on abseils or out on rock climbs.
00:07:31
Speaker
It could be super easy single pitch stuff or it could be multi-day expeditions in remote places like the Warren Bungles, um which is probably five hours from drive from where we live for people that aren't familiar with New South Wales.
00:07:46
Speaker
I could also be teaching guides. So I'm really fortunate to be able to work with the the next generation of people coming through to to be guides. Looking back over your career and your journey in the outdoors, um it's led you to where you are
Heuristics in Outdoor Risk Management
00:08:02
Speaker
today.
00:08:02
Speaker
How do you feel that your understanding of decision-making and decision-making points, and I think it's also probably a good time to start talking about risk, yeah has developed and changed along the way? How's that been for you?
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah, definitely think that it's developed significantly from just going out and doing the thing and, you know obviously doing my best to come home safely and in one piece, but without necessarily always understanding what levers that I was pulling to do that.
00:08:35
Speaker
<unk> And certainly being in the professional space has given me exposure to a lot more of those kind of decision-making tools and I work frequently with a guy called Killian Kennedy and he's a full IFMGA guide that's an International Federation of Mountain Guides Association, which is kind of as high as you can get in the guiding world, really.
00:08:57
Speaker
And he introduced me, ah guess, to this concept of heuristics. heuristic, heuris. And how is that spelt? Because it's a word that I had only started to hear about in the last few months.
00:09:11
Speaker
And I'm wondering if it actually just relates to something that we're all familiar with, but we didn't know there was a term. It's Not necessarily a word that we come across so a lot. My understanding is it's got um origins in Greek and that it's actually kind of tied to the word Eureka.
00:09:27
Speaker
um So it's to to find. I guess heuristics are ah basically a set of mental shortcuts that we have. Decision-making tiring, um as we all know.
00:09:40
Speaker
when you've been making decisions all day, they kind of get worse and worse and it's harder and harder to make them. And I guess it's a bit of ah a hack that our brains come up with to try and make decisions quickly and efficiently in day-to-day situations. So I guess an example of that might be if I go shopping tomorrow and I'm going to buy some food for a trip on the weekend i'm probably just going to buy the brand of freeze dry that i know so i don't have to do a major research project into all of the different things out there and what's the nutritional value of them and do they taste okay and you know that's just going to be the work of half a day and it's going to leave me wrung out i'm just going to go and grab the same thing off the shelf as i've got for the last half a dozen times
00:10:23
Speaker
And so there's a lot of benefits to the the heuristics, um but where they can get us into a little bit of trouble is when the importance of accuracy over efficiency has a high consequence. So if we start making a decision that we need to be really, really good and really correct because the consequences of us getting it wrong are high, and the efficiency of the heuristics can let us down.
Personal Autonomy in Outdoor Activities
00:10:50
Speaker
So we're talking about decisions here that we make associated with risk in the adventures or the activities that we undertake in the outdoors. Is that correct?
00:11:01
Speaker
It is. And it's one of the reasons why the outdoor space is so appealing to many of us, I i think. It's one of the few places left where we kind of get complete autonomy over the decisions we make and we're able to get often quite um quite direct feedback on whether we're making good or or bad choices out there you know if we don't eat enough or if we you know if we're cold and wet and hungry at the end of the night it's kind of on us um and there's not really that safety net there to to catch us as there are in most other areas in society and i guess it's part of the appeal um
00:11:45
Speaker
It's also one of the reasons why having some tools to to understand that risk and to manage it well are important. want to just give us a quick rundown on your thoughts on risk?
00:11:57
Speaker
Because it's such a huge topic and it's it's really what brings you know this whole podcast series to being here is about risk and how we deal with it in our outdoors life.
Risk Tolerance and Personal Growth
00:12:11
Speaker
I'd love to hear your thoughts about risk. I'm a big believer that everybody should be able to pick a risk tolerance that's right for them. And if they choose to engage more or less closely with whatever the the risky thing that they're doing is, that that really should be their choice.
00:12:32
Speaker
Where I reckon it's important we have great conversations like this podcast are helping people to understand what the risk they're engaging with is because there's tremendous benefit from from engaging you know in in sort of activities that have some risk or some consequence.
00:12:50
Speaker
I think you know particularly for young people, if they don't get any opportunity to to sort of do things that have some inherent risk and manage that risk in a way that is effective or ineffective and and learn those lessons, and they turn into adults that then get cut loose to make decisions that haven't really had a foundation to make good ones yet.
00:13:13
Speaker
And so I think, you know, in terms of their development, it's important to be exposed to those things. I think there's something deep inside us that probably just needs some interaction with decisions and activities that hold more consequence rather than less in order for us to feel properly sort of fulfilled.
Introduction to Heuristic Models (FACETS & ACCESS)
00:13:33
Speaker
So Hugh, why don't we jump into these heuristic tools or thoughts, processes, and maybe some of these models that you've mentioned, and so we can start to break them down and see how we could use them in our own lives, or maybe how we have been using them without realising it. So I guess, um yeah, we talked about heuristics and we, I guess, talked about how they're mental shortcuts and why we we kind of have those so our our brain can run on
00:14:05
Speaker
I guess, autopilot for the the bulk of the time. and we're We're not absolutely exhausted by sort of decision fatigue. um But they are like any time a car's on cruise control. It's not completely operating itself and it's a bit prone to error. And there's times where we need to be really conscious that actually we need to take control back and and start operating again.
00:14:30
Speaker
And I guess one of the things that i love about having some sort of model to identify the shortfalls in that heuristic is that it allows us to to take on and own those decisions and make good decisions.
00:14:44
Speaker
So i guess the first guy to sort of really bring these into an outdoorsy sense was this fellow called Ian McCammon. And was an avalanche forecaster who was seeing a lot of people who had the the experience and the knowledge um to go out and make good choices, suffering really bad results.
00:15:06
Speaker
right I guess particularly getting cleaned up in avalanches. And you know not people who were going out to take really risky choices that day, um but was somehow ending up with a bad outcome.
00:15:21
Speaker
And about that time in the early noughties, the work of these two fellows, Daniel Kahneman and Amos Sversky, that had been done in the seventies, basically into heuristics and and the pitfalls of them, Kahneman actually got a Nobel Prize in economics.
00:15:38
Speaker
And I ah guess it was all happening at about the same time. And McKannon sort of made this link of, hang on, that that's exactly what's happening for us out in the outdoors. Mm-hmm. And to try and translate it into a way that we could remember it easily and I guess maybe use to make decisions in groups and to kind of pressure check our our decisions a little bit, he put them into an acronym, which is FACETS.
00:16:01
Speaker
and FACETS didn't really ring true for me um because I'm not so much a snow guy. um I enjoy mountaineering, but I'm... um not a frothing skier.
00:16:13
Speaker
It's also an acronym that I guess people who are listening internationally in places with snow slopes that are steep enough to avalanche would probably be a lot more familiar with and because we have less of that terrain in Australia it's not something that's in the common parlance and I guess after a a long road trip and listening to a couple of excellent podcasts about decision making in the outdoors recently Bridie my wife and i were chatting about wouldn't it be great if this could be re-kind of shuffled in a way that the acronym could work a little bit more for us in Australia.
00:16:49
Speaker
and I guess we came up with the idea that access could be a good way to think of it. And I particularly like it because it sort of says what it does on the packet. You know, these are tools to help us get out into the outdoors and do the fun thing rather than preventing us from doing it.
00:17:05
Speaker
And come back again with a smile on our faces. Exactly. Yeah. Come home and be able to wash the gear and pack it again the next weekend and get out. Just give us a quick rundown on what each of those letters, the FACETS acronym actually stands for.
00:17:21
Speaker
So we're kind of getting ou ourselves in that right headspace. So FACETS stands for familiarity. Okay, so F for familiarity. And what does that mean? Familiarity with what?
00:17:32
Speaker
I guess it could be with a certain area or it could be with a you know particular rock climb style of location or with a particular piece of equipment. Yeah, or even maybe a season, the weather.
00:17:43
Speaker
I'm familiar, it should just be this. Yeah, yeah, it's summer, it's going to be hot. Yeah, okay. And then what about, let's move on to A for what does that stand for in facets? Acceptance. And I guess this is social acceptance or the need or the want for us to be accepted by the the group that we're in and the people around us. And social media certainly plays a big part in this nowadays. Yeah.
00:18:04
Speaker
Okay, that's ah that's a big one for sure. And moving on to C, what's that? It's often described as a couple of different ways, so commitment and consistency. And so I guess the idea that we want to be consistent in our decision making, we've said that we're going to go out and do whatever it is we've said we're going to go out and do and and now we have to do that.
00:18:23
Speaker
And It's the expert halo. You know, we've met a heap of people in a meetup group and, you know, the admin's out running a trip on the day and and we're just kind of following along and because they're at the admin and the most experienced person and but we're just going to do what they say they're going to do.
00:18:41
Speaker
After E, we hit T. What's that for? Tracks scarcity. And this is sort of where in the original version it lost me a little bit.
00:18:53
Speaker
um But the idea that I'm going to be the first person to put tracks down on a ah slope, it's really important that I ski that slope before anyone else does. And then what about the final S that makes up the word facets in this acronym? And this was the original acronym, yeah?
00:19:08
Speaker
Yeah, that that's right. And the the the final S is for social proof. So the idea that somebody else is doing it. So it it must be okay. So that that gives us the foundation of where this thinking that you've gone through has started
Applying Heuristic Tools in Real-World Scenarios
00:19:21
Speaker
from. and I'll link to in the show notes to some of that original work and the names of those two people who are responsible or have been cited as being the the first thinkers in this kind of space, in that avalanche space in the US, and also maybe a couple of those podcasts that you've mentioned as well.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, that'd be great. There's some some really, really good resources out there and people that can go into this in far more detail than than I can. um Some of them can be a little bit avalanche specific and and location specific.
00:19:51
Speaker
um But if this inspires people to go out and do some more research and and kind of understand this better, then that's fantastic. It's really good. Massive thanks for the support from the team at Paddy Pallon, who since 1930 have been leaders in travel and outdoor adventure.
00:20:08
Speaker
In fact, did you know that Paddy himself, a member of the Sydney Bushwalkers Club, was a volunteer in the original search and rescue arm of the Federation of Bushwalking Clubs in New South Wales? Nice one, Paddy.
00:20:22
Speaker
ah Okay, so you said that you'd come up with this word access. Walk us through how this one works. Yeah, so we've basically just shuffled the order around, taken the T away and moved the F. And I think Ian McCammon would be pretty fine with the idea that this work has changed. And certainly he has an expectation that it's usable tool and that however people can put it to use, he's pretty keen with.
00:20:48
Speaker
And the purpose of the acronym is just to help people remember it so they can use it when they're in the field. We've kind of moved that social acceptance or that acceptance up to to first. So that's A for acceptance.
00:21:01
Speaker
The C then is for commitment and consistency. Mm-hmm. The next C is for comfort, being in your comfort zone. And even though it's got some slightly negative connotations, like maybe even a little bit of complacency can come in here.
00:21:17
Speaker
The E remains the expert halo. Scarcity is is still scarcity, but we've taken away the tracks because maybe it's about a first descent in canyoning or a first ascent in rock climbing or about trying to really milk out the last day of a holiday rather than skiing a slope first.
00:21:33
Speaker
And the last S is social proof. Let's go back to the beginning. Let's talk about acceptance. How would that maybe look in practice? what What could be maybe some examples of where we might see ourselves making a decision that would ah rely on that acceptance term?
00:21:50
Speaker
I guess we've all got a you know a desire inside us to be kind of accepted by the group that we're with. and And if we want to stand out from the crowd, it's probably in a good way, not in a bad way.
00:22:03
Speaker
And so we're less likely to challenge the decision of a group because we don't want to be perceived sort of in in that bad way. yeah i guess, you know, the other big thing nowadays is the the so the acceptance on social media. So chasing the selfie on the waterfall or on the wrong side of the barrier or doing the cool flip or or whatever it is there.
00:22:26
Speaker
acceptance of the group, that could be things like, ah you know, the whole group's here or even, and and this is where sometimes group size can be interesting thing to think about in your preparation.
00:22:38
Speaker
um Let's say you've only got a small group and, you know, the the majority in the group just want to, oh, let's push for this last peak or this last view spot or this last something before the end of the day and there's someone or the minority um who might just be like, actually, no, I'm not great with that.
00:22:57
Speaker
But, you know, i can't let I can't be left here alone. I'm just going to have to join in and go in go with the flow. and want to be seen as Debbie Dowder. You know, another example that I sort of thought sort of, Jumping Canyons. And, you know, some of our listeners will probably be very familiar with the Blue Mountains and you know There's this jumping in butter box and you know that classic kind of everyone else is doing it.
00:23:23
Speaker
um Everyone's cheering me on and it doesn't feel right for me today. I've been kind of unco and that draw toward doing the jump anyway because because we want to be accepted by the group yeah instead of walking over the extra 10 metres and rigging up the abseil and kind of bypassing it.
00:23:44
Speaker
Yeah. you know, the thing that makes me think with that one is that there's actually responsibility not only on the individual, but if we are the group, if we are the others, you know, that we don't apply that pressure if someone is clearly not not up for it, no not into it.
Group Dynamics in Decision-Making
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah, it can be a really interesting balancing act, hey, because because we want to encourage people to push themselves and to do something they'll think about, yeah feel good about yeah um later. But I guess the danger is that we do push them into so doing something that they might regret or that they don't really want to do it and that they're kind of doing it because they're being peer pressured into it rather than because it's something that they really want to do in and of themselves. Yeah.
00:24:30
Speaker
And I think for me, you know, these tools are only as good as how well we can use them. And i guess the question that I try and ask myself when I'm making decisions, you know, here is, and is my am I seeking external validation with this choice?
00:24:49
Speaker
You know, am I doing this because I want to or am I doing it? you know and Am I hamming it up for the crowd? And if the if it's the second, I guess that's when i I needed to start thinking a little bit more about if that's my motivator, is it is it still worthwhile?
00:25:05
Speaker
And maybe the answer is yes. yeah you know But again, if the answer is yes and I do it, then I've just got to hone that. All right, let's let's move on, shall we, do to the C, the first of the Cs, which you mentioned was commitment and consistency.
00:25:20
Speaker
Yeah, they they get sort of – there's a little bit of overlap, I guess, eat in these things. So the the consistency is, you know, we say we're going to do something and and we we don't want to look like where we're all over the shop. So it's kind of locked us into this decision-making path, which means for the rest of the day we're going to – have to make decisions consistent with with kind of what our aims and objectives are.
00:25:46
Speaker
I've actually got a an example of ah the time pretty recently um where i was in a group and I think that C, that commitment and consistency heuristic was really at play. And fortunately, the group leader, it was a ah bush search and rescue training activity, but fortunately, the the group leader made a really good decision.
00:26:07
Speaker
So we had met in Katoomba, which is in the the Blue Mountains, so and we were doing ah an after-work fitness test, basically.
Learning from Comfort Zone Risks
00:26:16
Speaker
So we we all kind of run around like mad humans with packs on and step over things and under things and roll around.
00:26:24
Speaker
And there was storms forecast. They were supposed to be a little bit further south of us and they were supposed to come in later, but... what was forecast and what happened ended up being two different things.
00:26:37
Speaker
And so the ah storm was pretty much brewing, really ready to hit us. There's a lot of lightning um kind of about on the horizon and clearly coming toward us.
00:26:48
Speaker
And I guess, you know, this thing had been in the calendar for for months, probably six months. There'd been a bunch of people that organised their lives around getting there. Huge amount of work goes into the the coordination of these things, you know, renting, renting,
00:27:03
Speaker
facilities to do it in, getting gate keys, um picking up the the necessary equipment. um And we're actually halfway through this thing when Ellen, the team leader, said, ah okay, we're we're done here. We're we're going to go.
00:27:17
Speaker
And so despite the, you know, that was a really, really good decision. And despite the the pressure to be consistent with what we put in the the unit calendar, and despite all of the the energy that we'd already committed to it.
00:27:31
Speaker
um It was awesome some that a good decision got made and we we kind of called it off that evening. So let's look at the next C. Comfort zone is how you describe that one. What's that about? Yeah, the the comfort zone or, you know, the old expression about familiarity, sort of breeding contempt or a little bit of complacence.
00:27:51
Speaker
And I guess the idea, you you know, this can be the locals trap. um ah I've been here, I've done this again and again and again. i do this climb three times a week and stop looking at it with...
00:28:04
Speaker
the eyes of what I'm actually seeing and and somewhere because I'm so comfortable with it, I just look at it with the eyes of what I expect to see. And it's the classic, I've been here before but I'm just starting to take things for granted. That's the question that I will ask myself is what am I taking for granted here?
00:28:23
Speaker
um What am I not seeing I should be? But actually the last time I did the K2K, which is Kanangra Katoomba, it's um sort of a very popular multi-day walking trip before the fairly spectacular and impactful fires from 2019, 2020, there was a pretty well-established foot pad, like probably to the point where you'd have called it a track.
00:28:48
Speaker
And i guess in my my head, almost a bit of a trail run. So a few years back, like shortly after those fires, Brighton and I went out to to do it in a day.
00:29:01
Speaker
But I think generally people would want to allow two or or maybe three days to to complete the trip. Got it. You know, we had packed equipment to navigate with and we actually needed it instead of just following tracks.
00:29:13
Speaker
And, you know, if we'd been too kind of comfortable or too complacent there, things that we took like head torches and spare batteries for the head torches and the contingency stuff that we packed and actually needed, we we might not have.
00:29:26
Speaker
And that could have been a real problem for us.
Reflecting on Decision-Making Errors
00:29:29
Speaker
Good example of that comfort zone, yeah. I another example and I guess you know I'm going to be a little bit vulnerable here, but I took a really bad fall climbing at Frog a number of years ago and i was on a climb called Short Order, which is a 20. It's got some difficult moves down close to the ground. I'd climbed it before.
00:29:51
Speaker
and didn't really remember it being hard. So that there was a bit of um she'll be right. And, you know, it had rained heavily the night before I was climbing at this time, super high humidity, wet holds.
00:30:06
Speaker
um And definitely in my mind, a little bit too much comfort with the idea that it was only a 20 and she'll be right. um And maybe a little bit of acceptance going on as well um in my head of like, no, I don't want to be the guy that's standing out to the group in a bad way by backing off on a 20.
00:30:26
Speaker
um So i I kind of undertook this move um with some very thin, I guess, holds and the the hold that I was kind of remembering being pretty good wasn't as good as I thought it was and I i actually came out of the thing and to a really awkward fall and ended up on the ground.
00:30:46
Speaker
I think that that's a really good example of just being little bit too comfortable, a little bit complacent, a little bit too much, she'll be right. Thank you for um putting yourself out there because, I mean, this is the whole thing. that We all make millions of decisions every day. this is what's great about this conversation, about these tools, is that they're a way of checking in and just making sure we are trying to make the best decision and we're and we're kind we're consciously making those decisions and aware that we all make mistakes and we all you know make decisions that we're not necessarily proud of.
00:31:22
Speaker
I think it's really important to have a culture of being open about them as well. If we don't share them and if we don't kind of admit when we haven't made choices that are as good as they could have been, it it robs other people the opportunity to learn from them.
00:31:36
Speaker
yeah And it's kind of easy to be judgmental when these things happen, but, you know, the reality is it doesn't actually help. It doesn't help the person that it's happened to. It doesn't help other people to learn from it and doesn't help whoever's being judgmental either.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah. I remember a ah talk by um Dr. Claire Dallet, who hope she'll forgive me by simplifying her experience down to it being as a risk boffin in the outdoors.
00:32:04
Speaker
And she had this saying, why did it make sense for that person to do, you say, think or feel Whatever it is that they did, said, thought or felt, that means we're now here having the conversation about it.
00:32:19
Speaker
And I guess specifically that was a ah workplace kind of example, but ah really i like this sort of access acronym as a tool for that, thinking about why did it make sense to us at the time to do
The Influence of Expert Halo Effect
00:32:31
Speaker
that?
00:32:31
Speaker
But having had the outcome we've had, we can see that it probably wasn't what we wanted and we need to do something differently in future to get a different and better outcome. Because I think it's so easy and we've all done that, you know, when we first say hear about an incident or we read about something we ago and were they thinking?
00:32:50
Speaker
Why did they think that okay? they think that was okay There's not really much grace in that at all. I mean, it's natural. It's probably, um you know, it's probably another mental shortcut for us to actually put a little bit of distance between ourselves and bad events and sort of say they can't apply to us.
00:33:09
Speaker
It makes us more comfortable kind of engaging in spaces that otherwise we might be uncomfortable. But i I think it's short-sighted. ah pretty good segue, hey, um into the expert halo. Yeah.
00:33:21
Speaker
yeah um You know, the idea that experts are just as prone to making these mistakes and as other folks. Yeah. So how might we see the expert halo play out in in our lives?
00:33:35
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I ah see two different ways that it it can kind of happen. And, you know, is the person we're looking at as an expert actually an expert?
00:33:46
Speaker
Or are they the leader of a meet-up group? on Facebook and they the admin and because they post the most photos, we just assume that they know the most where, you know, maybe that's not where they see themselves and maybe it's not where um where we should be positioning them. We, in our head, make them mean to be more than they have the skills to be. Well, the other thing is um maybe they are that expert and and they really and um have a huge amount of skill and experience and
00:34:18
Speaker
but they're just missing something because they're having an off day, which we all we all do. it's sort of I guess it is a problem because it means that we sort of give away some of our responsibility and autonomy yeah and that we maybe we're seeing something that somebody else isn't, but because they're the expert, we either don't feel comfortable to talk up kind of play a little bit back on that acceptance thing. Like I don't want to be the guy that questions question somebody that's been doing this for 25 years or has 70,000 followers or or whatever it is. um
00:34:56
Speaker
But it doesn't mean that I'm not seeing something that they're not on this day. And I guess the question i I always try to ask myself is, like, does that make sense to me? Is this a decision I can own as well?
00:35:08
Speaker
And, you know, we were talking before about kind of fostering group dynamics such that we can have conversations pretty openly. And I sort of think this is a great one for maybe trying to learn something from from that expert if we're with them and they're making a decision that's maybe different to what you would have made. Just saying like, hey, like I was sort of thinking maybe we'd do this and like, but am I missing something? How come we're doing that instead? and you know I see that as a real win-win because it's a good opportunity either to learn something or or to maybe shine a light onto something that people weren't seeing before.
00:35:42
Speaker
I liked a word you used earlier, which was outsourcing and outsourcing um that responsibility we take for our own actions.
00:35:53
Speaker
um And I think especially when people are beginners or they feel like they have low skills, it's easy to just follow the leader and I accept that because this person, and I'm even talking about even people who may position themselves as some sort of a like group leader or even be an employee of ah of an organisation or a guy ah professional guide, that it's easy for us to go, oh, they're the experts, I'm paying for them.
Encouraging Personal Responsibility in Decisions
00:36:22
Speaker
And I think it's so easy for people who are new, who are just so happy to learn and eager to learn and just happy to be there, to to be out doing things,
00:36:32
Speaker
to feel that they don't have a ah right or a voice or to even switch off that little switch of that little still small voice that might nudge them and say, maybe something's not quite right.
00:36:45
Speaker
Yeah, there's something scratching away at me here that doesn't doesn't sit well. And, you know, it's so important that we do say something in those situations those times because if we don't, we're sort of giving away our ownership of that decision.
00:36:59
Speaker
And at the end of the day, you know it's important that we we own the decision because we've got to live the rest of our lives with the outcome of it. And i mean, we do it all the time. And normally, the decisions aren't of consequence. you know A decision of higher consequence, it's really important that I own it because the the outcome is going to be with me for a long time. And um it's amazing, um even as what you're moving through these and teaching us about these different parts of this access acronym and helping us make wiser decisions, I'm seeing how so many of them can actually play together all at the same time.
00:37:36
Speaker
So this expert halo one we're talking on right now, it also goes to that, oh, hey, um I'm new, I don't want to be seen to be you know, but the worrisome person, so I won't
Balancing Guidance with Client Autonomy
00:37:50
Speaker
say anything. and Or, hey, I've taken time off work.
00:37:53
Speaker
They're definitely um they interlink and we can get some of these stacked on top of each other. And it's why it's such a cool tool, I guess, to to have everyone in a group be familiar with um because it gives you a shorthand for having these conversations of, are we making the right choices here? And, you know, often my mates and I will tease each other about whatever kind of choice that we're making fitting into one of these or more than one of them.
00:38:21
Speaker
um So it's, um yeah, it's definitely nuanced and complicated and it's a ah rabbit hole that if people want to, they could go right into, which would be awesome. I've got one more question on this expert halo before we step away from it. And you've touched on it earlier, but it comes down to that that balance between as a professional guide, when you're taking someone out of their comfort zone or you're wanting to apply just the right amount of encouragement to get them to achieve something um that you know is safe, but you, well, there's even all the concepts around that word, but you as a guide ah wanting your client or your customer to take a step.
00:39:05
Speaker
How do you find that balance between knowing you can push someone to a limit and not too far because their own personal responsibility decision-making may be really high on that, you know, on some of these and they're like, they're not comfortable. How do you how do you deal with that as a guide?
00:39:21
Speaker
It's tricky and it's, I mean, to me, it's actually the rewarding part of the job is to... help people do something that otherwise they wouldn't be able to And I think it starts, you know, maybe as early as the the first phone call or or email, just in trying to be really clear of what they want out of the trip.
00:39:44
Speaker
What are their aims and objectives? And, you know, it could be the same for a for a recreational trip, though. that I go on as well because it it just helps to be a little bit consistent in trying not to to push people in a direction they don't want to go.
00:39:59
Speaker
So if somebody's come out just to have a really fun day and and I'm trying to force a whole bunch of technical skill on them, it's not really in line with what they want out of the day. um But if they've come out to do a really big abseil and they're nervous on the lip of the abseil, then, you know, that's kind of ah probably a probably more appropriate time to offer them some coaching and some insights that hopefully we've picked up together, you know, working through the morning that'll help them do the next thing.
00:40:27
Speaker
later on and I think being a bit transparent in it as well um you know sometimes I'll say to people like I ah
Sharing Personal Outdoor Stories
00:40:34
Speaker
really want to encourage you to do this but i also don't want to talk you into doing something you don't want to um you know are you saying you don't want to do it now because you're nervous or are you saying or because there's something bad happening but I'm just not seeing the full picture um you know maybe acceptance commitment or complacency are kind of sitting there in the the background of of my mind while I'm wearing that expert halo and guiding to Do you have a personal story about an incident or time during an outdoor trip when something didn't quite go to plan?
00:41:05
Speaker
Maybe you got lost, injured, let down by some gear or something else. Look, honestly, it can happen to any of us at any time, regardless of how experienced we are.
00:41:17
Speaker
And it's by sharing these stories that we can all learn and help avoid them in the future. If that's you, I'd love to hear from you. So please drop me an email to rescued at lotsafreshair.com.
00:41:29
Speaker
That's L-O-T-S-A, freshair.com.
00:41:35
Speaker
So should we move on to the first of the S's in the access? Yeah.
Scarcity and Its Impact on Decisions
00:41:39
Speaker
Just to recap where we're up to, we've done A for acceptance, and that's that social media as well, acceptance. C for commitment and consistency.
00:41:49
Speaker
The next C for comfort zone. And E for expert halo. And now we're up to... Scarcity. Scarcity. If you wanted to text it in block capitals, you could probably just call it FOMO. ah Yeah. And I reckon you know the whole fear of missing out is a ah great way of describing this. There's a ah finite resource there or finite opportunity. And if I don't make the most of it, I won't be able to again.
00:42:14
Speaker
So you know maybe it's putting up a first ascent on a rock climb or being the first person down a canyon or the first person walking down a spur. um yeah you know I've never been here before and I want to kind of get in before somebody else does and find that pass or kind of whatever it is, really.
00:42:29
Speaker
It could also be that classic, I've got one day's good weather a really bad week, or I've got one day's adequate weather in a weekend. and i really want to try and make the most of it.
00:42:42
Speaker
like As you're speaking, like I'm just thinking of all the times... that these things have um played a part in some of the decisions that I've made. And some of them, like you said, the one you mentioned is I'm not proud of all these decisions that I've made, but having this awareness of them now is like, ah.
00:43:00
Speaker
And having this tool is really going to help me hopefully be prouder and a lot of us be prouder of our decisions that we make in the future. So is there anything else you wanted to add on scarcity before we move on over to the last one?
00:43:13
Speaker
I've got an example. Last summer, I was going to be guiding Canangra, Maine with a colleague. And for people who don't know it, Canangra, Maine's a big canyon. um There's 20 plus roped obstacles and it's not something that gets guided a lot.
00:43:28
Speaker
And I guess in and of itself that makes it a bit scarce. ah wanted but My colleague and I wanted to get out and recce it before we guided it. and We were down to basically the last day um that we could before the ah trip.
00:43:46
Speaker
and the weather had been pretty appalling so we're out at canangra um with a ah really cool group of humans um full not killing another fellow mighty bear who's a another ifmga guide and you know a group of either guides or ex-guides and ah a mate who's from like a professional search and rescue fellow out of spain and um You know, the opportunity to get that group of people together on a recce to go and look at something again and to gain all the insights that they might provide, probably not going to happen again.
00:44:22
Speaker
But when we got out and we were standing at the top of the first abseil and looking at the water levels, but it was clearly not the right choice. And as it happened, we we kind of left and we went and did a different canyon that sort of had a slightly smaller catchment and and was more appropriate for the conditions.
00:44:43
Speaker
But there was a really, really strong pull of of like, when are we going to be back here with these people? When are we going to have this opportunity again? um Maybe we should just do it.
00:44:55
Speaker
And when you think about the expertise within the group and the skills and the experience in similar style adventures, you'd be hard-pressed to find having a fully capable group like that attempt something like that, yet you made the decision to do something else.
00:45:13
Speaker
I'm really comfortable with it. It was a good choice and I'm i'm glad we went and did K-Lang instead that day. Yeah, I think it would have been really easy to have talked ourselves into why it was fine and why it was a good choice um to go anyway. Can you remember the discussions that you had at the top when you were looking down and and the looks on people's faces? Yeah.
00:45:32
Speaker
Not really. i sort of ah remember certainly feeling a little bit of pressure to go down to be able to provide ah you know high quality of guided experience from where when we kind of were back there the following week. And I definitely remember you know because we'd all driven out, um we'd all gotten up early, we'd all so i guess here we are in kind of commitment and definitely feeling a bit of pressure on the old consistency front of like we've come out here to do K-Main and that's the reason why, you know, Jorge's taken time away from his holiday and, you know, people have knocked back work and all the things.
00:46:12
Speaker
I don't really remember the conversations but I remember hustling pretty quickly out of there once we'd made the choice to so go get into the top of the the other canyon that we thought might be more appropriate.
00:46:23
Speaker
Good decision. Yeah. It seems to tick all the ah happy happy face boxes.
Social Proof in Decision-Making
00:46:29
Speaker
So let's let's ah let's talk about that last one in the ACCESS acronym that you've developed here. What's that all about?
00:46:36
Speaker
So social proof, I guess this is the the idea that is it safe? I'm not really sure. Well, those people are doing it, so it must be. um And it's the classic thinking. Somebody's done it before, so it must be okay.
00:46:49
Speaker
um Or, you know, the car park's full, so they've all, you know, whether or not they've gone to do the same thing, I guess, is a different question. Yeah. Certainly I've i've been kind of drawn in toward ah river crossing that we decided not to do in the end down in the Kaomong. There was a lot of water moving through, know, that classic water being discoloured and stuff floating in it and kind of trying to talk ourselves into it being a good idea. And there'd been a party in front of us that we couldn't see. So, oh they they must have got through okay. And they might maybe they've got washed down into the dam, who knows. But
00:47:25
Speaker
It's really that kind of draw of it just being tempting to follow other people. and And again, it's kind of that outsourcing of the decision making. It's kind of giving that ownership away.
00:47:36
Speaker
And we've kind of talked about why it's probably not ideal to do. The other instance that comes to mind about that um social proof is when you say online, you might go to one of the, um say, all trails or something like that and you see all these reviews and you see people saying, oh, yeah, this was really easy or this was great. Oh, this is the best thing. You should do it.
00:47:59
Speaker
And so that in itself is social proof. Like, oh, well, every all these other people have been doing it and and it's been fabulous. So off I go. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. and Well, they were all climbing over the the fence of the lookout for the shots. And, you know, just because somebody else's honour doesn't mean it's necessarily the right choice.
00:48:18
Speaker
um that They could have a different depth of experience and skill to us to draw on to be able to to do those things safely. They could have different conditions when they're there. you know They could be editing photos better than we do to make them look different.
00:48:35
Speaker
um or Or they could just be making really bad choices and getting lucky because that definitely happens um probably to all of us. you know We've probably all made choices that – Thinking back on, we've kind of figured maybe we shouldn't have, but yeah we've been lucky in the outcome.
00:48:51
Speaker
And just because somebody else is doing it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right choice for us, um but it's it's very easy to convince ourselves it is.
Using ACCESS for Informed Decisions
00:49:00
Speaker
What do you think, I mean, all of this adds up to make a great tool to help us make decisions and good decisions. What do what do you think people need? Like, what do we need to make decisions before we take an action?
00:49:14
Speaker
I mean, to me, it's almost like there's two parts of our our mind. There's the the fast part, the bit that's on autopilot, just making these choices for us and And we almost need to stop that bit, slow things down enough to make a conscious choice and let the slow part of our brain make a considered choice.
00:49:34
Speaker
And you know that could just be as simple as, I'm just going to stop here for a second and think about this. Or maybe it's, hey, let's stop the group and talk about it.
00:49:45
Speaker
um Or it could be a case of that looks pretty full on, I'm going to stop and light the jet boil and have a cuppa and we're just going to have an early lunch and then we're going to navigate whatever the thing is that we need to navigate next.
00:50:00
Speaker
So I love that. So being aware that we've got the autopilot fast brain and then being able to just bank that for a second and draw upon this slower, more measured, well thought out part of our brains and and refer to tools like this ACCESS acronym that you've worked on.
00:50:19
Speaker
you know and i think another thing that's really valuable is having conversations up front with the group about what is it that we're going out to achieve and and why. And just making sure that we're all on the same page, you know ideally before the trip happens, but if if not, then on it.
00:50:37
Speaker
um You know, if we're on a climbing trip and somebody's on a, you know, live free or die summit or plummet ah agenda, um we have to get to the top no matter what.
00:50:48
Speaker
Like maybe that's okay. Maybe it's worth it to them and maybe it's worth it to everyone in the group. But I think it's important that we kind of know that that's what we're signing on for. Because the other person in the group, you know, if they're in completely other end of the spectrum, I'm just going to go out to climb in the sun.
00:51:03
Speaker
I think having those expectations and the motivations talked about up front, both being honest with ourselves and also with the other people in our team, i think that's a really valuable tool to kind of, I guess, lay this over the top of to make sure that we're then sort of making the decisions that we wanted to at the beginning of the day. Yeah, so good. So good. And I'm i'm thinking about even...
00:51:26
Speaker
In that whole managing expectations, not only managing your own expectations, being aware of them, but managing expectations of the group and being aware of everyone's expectations. So there's a part in there I'm thinking it's it's choose your friends wisely.
00:51:40
Speaker
you know Choose the people that you're going out with wisely so you are all on the same page. And maybe the right friends for the right trip. yeah as well because i you know I know some people that really like to suffer and and so if i want to go out on a suffer fest, it's probably better that I message them um than it is that I message somebody that I know likes to take lots of photos and kind of look at every kind of leaf and plant and identify the fungi and you know different trip that's perfect buddy but if it's a suffer fest I'm after, ah probably need to text the other crowd.
00:52:16
Speaker
that comes from a position of knowing your friends and knowing yourself. I'm thinking again about those groups that you may, you know, some some of us may not have the benefit of having a lot of friends and folks around us who are into these kind of adventures and these things that we love to do. So um you may find yourself in a position where you've got no choice but to try and tap into communities um outside your own and whether that be online communities or through clubs or other organisations.
00:52:47
Speaker
And so having these kind of discussions and and knowing up front what you're signing up for and the kind of, you know, doing a bit of buyer beware and getting your research down It feels like a bit of hard work, but it feels like it could be something that could make a major difference.
00:53:04
Speaker
And I think just not only in terms of the the management ah of ah risk and decision-making, but just in terms of how enjoyable the trip is, um you know, making sure everyone's on the same page before
Aligning Group Expectations for Safe Trips
00:53:15
Speaker
heading out. And, you know, if that particular group or if that particular avenue isn't quite the right one, or maybe there's another one that that is, or maybe there's another opportunity that'll come up that that's a better fit,
00:53:27
Speaker
I'm even thinking of trips, and this is the smallest, simplest thing, but, you know, there might be, ah say, a bushwalk planned for a whole day and it's, you know, you're going to be out out till sunset, you know, getting back to the cars at sunset.
00:53:39
Speaker
But somebody hasn't told you that they really need to get back to town or back to the city. They've got a dinner booked or they've got a theatre ticket booked. And so without anyone knowing, this person has really put the pressure on all day for the speed and, like, come on, we've got to keep goop moving, got to keep going.
00:53:55
Speaker
And you're like, oh wow, you know, this person's really taking off. And if if you'd had that discussion up front in the morning or hopefully before the morning and the expectations were laid down, then you'd never sort of be in that in that position.
00:54:08
Speaker
Yeah, you'd just choose a ah slightly different route, cut it back by a third or, yeah, do do whatever. You know, that's play half a dozen different ways of managing that. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, like the more you look at this heuristic study stuff, the more areas of our life it's relevant to, you know, certainly in terms of being sold to and a lot of the, you know, the way that a lot of advertising works is
Encouraging Mindful Decisions
00:54:33
Speaker
based off it. And it's actually kind of,
00:54:36
Speaker
terrifying the more you go down the kind of path of understanding this stuff the more you realize people can pull your levers and influence the way you're making choices for you it's a bit of dark art but how can we use the dark arts in our favor yes yeah that's right Yeah, I'm reminded of a um ah trip that I was going off on.
00:54:58
Speaker
it It was a like a mountaineering trip at altitude and and everyone around me as I was going was sort of saying stay safe or come back well or be careful or kind of these inherently risk-averse or or slightly wishy-washy statements that are difficult to, you know, beyond acknowledging the well-wishing in it and and appreciating it, it was sort of difficult to really kind of take them on board and and think, oh, yeah, that'll – That's something I'll take with me on the trip.
00:55:26
Speaker
And this guy that I come with a bit, Xander, he didn't say any that. He said, make good decisions. So good. That was in 2009. And nine and ah guess it's something that's really lived with me since that make good decisions and like consciously make decisions rather than allowing the decisions to make themselves through kind of inactivity or indecision.
00:55:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's become a bit of a personal personal motto. Yeah. I wonder if yours, Andrew, will be offended if I start taking on that motto myself, make good decisions. Yeah, love it.
00:56:00
Speaker
Absolutely love
Conclusion and Resources
00:56:01
Speaker
it. So in closing, is there anything else you wanted to leave us with um in terms of making better decisions? Yeah, I think if we can be upfront with ourselves on what our motivators are, if we can be upfront with the people around us about what we want out of ah trip, and if we can be honest with ourselves about what things are influencing us,
00:56:25
Speaker
At the time, my hope is that this will kind of give people a framework to to make better decisions and it's a useful tool and that it's going to help them to actually get out and do the fun thing rather than as something that might prevent them from doing it Yeah, sounds great. Thank you so much, Hugh.
00:56:43
Speaker
Now, if people want to know more about this acronym, this this tool that you've developed, Access, and dive into it a little deeper, maybe read some more information it, is there something they can go for that? There'll be a blog post on the Climbing School website, climbingschool.com.au.
00:57:01
Speaker
And in it, I think we might link back to... McCammond's sort of original work and and maybe try and get something in about Kahneman and Sversky's work as well because I think it's really important to be able to see the depth of this stuff and um also make sure that those people that have done all the the heavy lifting before us are acknowledged. Yeah.
00:57:22
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much. This is sort of one of those episodes that that don't involve, you know, in the in the first case, a dramatic incident or an accident, something that's gone wrong, but hopefully is one that will prevent some of that happening to yeah to to all of us. and that And I'm including myself in that.
00:57:40
Speaker
So, yeah, thank you so much for this. Thanks very much for having me on, Caro. It's a great podcast and I'm pretty stoked to be able to be a part of it. If you've enjoyed this powerful story or one of the many others from my super generous guests, you can help more people connect and hear these valuable lessons simply by leaving a five-star review. And why not even click that little bitty share button on your podcast app and help your outdoorsy mates find it too.
00:58:10
Speaker
The Rescued podcast is produced on the unceded lands of the Gondungara people of the Blue Mountains of New South Wales. I pay my respects to the elders past and present and acknowledge their enduring connection to and care for country.
00:58:26
Speaker
Special thanks to our sponsors, Paddy Pallon. This has been Lots of Fresh Air production.