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015 // Dr Paul Luckin is an expert on human survivablity - Part 2
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Dr Paul Luckin is an authority on human survivability. He’s a medical advisor to the Police Search and Rescue teams and the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (that’s AMSA), providing time-frames for human survival during Search and Rescue operations.
In part 2 of my conversation with Paul, we look deeper into demographics and practicalities of surviving in the wild. What should people do if in that situation and ask what can be done to help get these messages across.
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
The following episode touches on subjects such as trauma, mental health and suicide that some people may find triggering. Please take a sec and consider who's listening, and that includes you. And remember, if you need to chat things through, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or visit beyondblue.org.au.
Rescue Stories and Lessons
00:00:19
Speaker
one four or visit beyondblue dot org but a you you Rescued is a podcast of conversations with rescuers and those who've been rescued.
00:00:33
Speaker
It's about the lessons we learn about ourselves, the places we go and why, without judgment or shame, to help us have better adventures, manage risk and deal with the unexpected.
00:00:46
Speaker
Welcome to part two of my conversation with Dr. Paul Luckin. Part one is pretty key to a lot of the things spoken about in this episode. So if you haven't heard that yet, i thoroughly recommend popping out and listening to that first, which you'll find at episode 14.
Risk Awareness and Communication Challenges
00:01:03
Speaker
So how can we change this, Paul? I mean, this is the conundrum i i play with all the time, is how can we better get these messages across to people?
00:01:14
Speaker
is is ah you know Should we be looking at that kind of public campaign to to try and make or help people think about the risks and think about um steps they should take before they head out for a bushwalk?
00:01:27
Speaker
I think we should absolutely. And and um I think that podcasts like this of yours are tremendously valuable in that respect. But um we're talking to the converted. If they're listening to your podcast, it's because they're thinking about these things.
00:01:42
Speaker
How do we reach the other people? Well, everybody else in the world knows it's not going to happen to them. um How do you get that through to them? Well, it's kind of like, you know, um how do you convince people that they should wear a seatbelt? They're not going to believe you unless and until they see the results of not wearing a seatbelt.
00:02:00
Speaker
So if we want people to understand, yes, it can happen to you when you go for your wonderful adventure, your bushwalk, your whatever it is, if they are not aware of the outcome and of the results of people who don't take care, honestly don't know how we get the message across to them.
Complexity of Search and Rescue Operations
00:02:16
Speaker
But when somebody is found and they are injured or dead, if they're injured, the media really want to play up the fact that they're injured and somebody's been injured you see the wonderful photographs, the film of the rescue helicopter,
00:02:28
Speaker
you don't hear that that person now spends three months in hospital and never walks properly again, or that he's got a head injury from damaging his head. That's that's not newsworthy.
00:02:39
Speaker
If people knew that, they might stop and think. If there was actually detailed coverage of the fact that person died this person died unnecessarily, and if they had done the following, they might have survived, that might get through, but you can't do that. And you can't do that because they've got a grieving family at home And the family are now thinking, well, they might have survived and they might tell their friends that.
00:03:03
Speaker
But you can't tell the public this was an unnecessary death. This was a lack of planning, a lack of preparation. And one has to be careful. but You've got to be careful what you say and I do too. At at least one inquest where I've i've given evidence, um if the person had made one phone call beforehand just to say, I'm at so-and-so and I'm about to do this,
00:03:25
Speaker
and the search and rescue operation, when they didn't check in a few hours later, would have been launched immediately, going very specifically to the area where that person was, and they might have been found alive. In the absence of that call in to say, yeah, I've got to point a I'm heading off to point B, I'll be there in four or five hours' time, I'll give you a call when I get there, um or activating the emergency locator beacon of whatever type it is.
00:03:50
Speaker
um In the absence of that, they don't survive. How do we get that message out to the rest of the world? I do not know. you know Bad news doesn't sell. And because there's a grieving family there, you can't actually make that information public.
00:04:05
Speaker
I always think about the families, the the families who are at that forward command post and, you know, seeing their faces, seeing them um not having the skills to go at themselves and feeling helpless but to show them that there is this whole network of people and we are we are just here. We are standing alongside you.
00:04:29
Speaker
We are doing everything we can. um connected to each other to to make this the best it can be. And that that's something that people very rarely understand, that it is it it is a huge thing.
00:04:44
Speaker
the the public conception of search and rescue is very often what they see on TV, hello a row of people, often in orange overalls, walking through the grass. That's not a search and rescue operation. That's usually an evidence search. They're looking looking for specific bits of of stuff.
00:05:00
Speaker
And people, by and large, aren't aware that search and rescue is, firstly, an incredibly complex operation. It's very highly scientific. It's not, oh, well, let's go and look in that. But um A lot of it is mathematically based, particularly when it comes to working out search areas.
00:05:15
Speaker
um So there's a thing called the probability of area. Police calculate very carefully the likelihood of a missing person being in a particular area, and that's called the probability of area.
Family Involvement in Search Efforts
00:05:26
Speaker
Then they calculate what's called the probability of detection. Given the assets that we have, be it helicopters, drones, people on foot, motorcycles, boats, marine vessels of any type,
00:05:38
Speaker
what is the probability using those assets that if the missing person is in that area, we will find them? And then after the probability of area, the probability of detecting them if they are in that area, what is the probability that they are alive at the given time? And that's that's where they consult me.
00:05:55
Speaker
Then the question is also, if we can find them and if we can find them alive, what is the probability of bringing them home alive? And that's the ultimate game in search and rescue. So it's an incredibly complex mathematical exercise as well as a physical and and practical exercise.
00:06:12
Speaker
I have always encouraged the police to to do what is now very, very common, and that is it to have members of the public at the Ford come out and post. One of the reasons is that they can see that it's an incredibly complex and diverse operation and can see just ah what a huge number of assets are being involved. It's not two policemen standing at the post thinking, well, let's go for a walk through that path and have a look. It'll be 20 or 30 police um people of different types occupied in a search and it may well be 30, 40, 50, 100 SES personnel.
00:06:43
Speaker
It may very well be another dozen people um in different aircraft and it may well be 50, 60, 100 soldiers involved as well in the search. Search and rescue is always dangerous, it's always complex, it's always well organised.
00:06:58
Speaker
And one of the great benefits um that we have found in at the last umpteen years I've been doing this is for the um people at the forward command post running the search to say to the family, and this is where we are, this is what we're doing, this is the area of the map that we've searched, these are the assets that we've got, and this is the latest update in the medical advice that we have.
00:07:20
Speaker
That is tremendously helpful and comforting to the family. And it means that when they get to the end, if it's not successful in bringing home somebody alive, they have the comfort of knowing that every single possible thing has been done. Every avenue that could be thought of has been thought of.
00:07:37
Speaker
You used to some years ago, not so much recently, see that you get today five, six, seven of a search and the search is now scaled down or changes from a rescue operation to a recovery operation.
00:07:49
Speaker
In other words, we're no longer looking for a person alive because we don't we know that's not possible. No, we don't think it's possible. We know it's not possible anymore. um You would hear that the family had mortgaged their house, um taken everything they own, hired a pilot in a light aircraft to fly up and down the coast for two or three days.
00:08:07
Speaker
They would not do that if they understood that the police have had half a dozen aircraft up. They have had a grid search very, very carefully planned. If it's in the water, they have dropped a dummy into the water and watched where that dummy goes.
00:08:22
Speaker
They have dumped a whole lot of theoretical balls on a computer screen into the water, looked at the drift patterns, the wind and the waves. And on computer modelling, they have looked at the drift patterns, they've looked at where that missing person or missing vessel could possibly be.
00:08:37
Speaker
And as time progresses, that search area increases and that has been extensively searched. They don't know that. They don't realize that that's the case. So they spend every penny they have and a lot more that they don't have getting somebody up in an aircraft to conduct a small-scale search that is a fraction of what has already been done.
00:08:55
Speaker
Massive thanks for the support from the team at Paddy Pallon, who since 1930 have been leaders in travel and outdoor adventure. In fact, did you know that Paddy himself, a member of the Sydney Bushwalkers Club, was a volunteer in the original search and rescue arm of the Federation of Bushwalking Clubs in New South Wales?
00:09:15
Speaker
Nice one, Paddy.
Decision-Making in Search Operations
00:09:18
Speaker
A question that I get asked quite a lot, and it's a question that maybe you've been asked before, in fact, I'm sure you probably have, when police say, oh, you know, the search is going to be wrapping up after so many X number of days, how do they decide when to start wrapping things up and what does that look like and how do they how do they reach those kind of decisions?
00:09:45
Speaker
I'm talking out of turn now because I'm trying to talk about decisions other people make. So I'm not the expert in that. you understand What they do is they, they look at the, um, the information that they have and look at the timeframe, the ah possible scenarios in which the missing person could survive and how long we think it's reasonable for them to survive in that. And they will often come back to me two or three or four times and say, you know, can we have an update on this?
00:10:13
Speaker
And, almost invariably, we've reached the point at which I say, I do not think there is any reasonable prospect of the person being ah being alive at this stage.
00:10:25
Speaker
They will go on searching. And they've often said to me, we'll search for 50% longer than you say is reasonable. Now, again, that 50% is a rubbery number. ah That is the determination the police will make on anything.
00:10:39
Speaker
I don't ever say to them, you know, stop now. I will say to them, I cannot at this stage argue that scaling down a search is unreasonable. and And again, that comes down to not just an understanding of the physiology and of what might have happened to them.
00:10:55
Speaker
It comes down to a very deep personal understanding of being on the ground conducting a search and understanding how difficult it is in different environments and why it's difficult. and and how likely it is that you may be able to find the person while they're alive. is say it's So it's a whole of search and rescue experience, not a, this is what I think as a doctor. to Again, teamwork, it comes down to be and part of ah understanding what it's like to be in the team conducting it. And it's very much very much teamwork.
00:11:27
Speaker
And I think, and and again, everyone else will have ah perhaps a slightly different view of this, but I think that the most important and the most valuable thing the family members can do during the search and rescue operation is to be completely open with the information they give police.
00:11:44
Speaker
Tell them everything you know. Now, frequently, people will not tell the police everything they know. ah for two reasons. They will try and tell them what is comfortable for everybody to know and not tell them what's uncomfortable. They won't tell them that they are, for example, taking recreational drugs. They won't tell them they may not tell them that. They may not tell them that there is in fact a history of um attempted self-harm because you know it doesn't reflect well on the missing person.
00:12:14
Speaker
Those things, things like that, the drugs that they've been taking, ah whether they've had arguments with people, whether they've had a major fight, whether they've recently lost their job, whether they're facing a arrest, all of those things do have a major influence on how you how you um are able to plan and conduct a search and rescue operation because it gives you insight into what they may or may not do.
00:12:37
Speaker
It's that insight that is terribly, terribly important because without that insight, you you're operating blind. So for the family, just say, which is more important, telling the police everything that they need to know to help find the missing person alive or keeping our secrets within the family?
00:12:55
Speaker
hey The answer is tell them. And the other thing that people sometimes do is they will try and tell police what they think the police need to be told to make them go on searching or to search in particularly to search where they think where the family thinks the missing person might be. They will deliberately skew the information to make the search and rescue organization as a whole do what they think they should be doing.
00:13:19
Speaker
Please accept that the police and the broader team conducting a search and rescue operation do know more about search and rescue than you personally do. They know more about than I do.
00:13:30
Speaker
They are the people are best equipped to plan and run the operation. But the best chance of finding your missing relative or family member or loved one alive is to give them absolutely open, truthful information. Now the police are not going to reveal that information.
00:13:47
Speaker
It's not going to be on the news tonight. Well, Joe Bloggs is a known drug addict and he's known he's got mental health issues. It's not going to become public knowledge. But it does give the police the best opportunity.
Sharing Information with Authorities
00:13:57
Speaker
And for indigenous people, and occasionally they don't want to share information with police because it's it's secret tribal business or because it goes into tribal trust areas or sacred areas.
00:14:10
Speaker
But again, that handicaps the search and rescue organization in terms of finding people. Just on that, if you were holding back information because you feel that, you know, maybe it it would bias the searchers, you know, if they thought poorly perhaps of if your loved one who who we're helping to try and find Not only does that information that you may share with the police not get shared to the public, it it quite often doesn't get shared to the other people searching, to the searchers, certainly not not at a volunteer level, not at a boots on the ground level.
00:14:51
Speaker
you know though That kind of information is kept you know very tightly um within a very small group of people. And um and certainly when it came if you're thinking of you know a search with 20, 50, 100 SES and RFS volunteers, maybe members of national parks, military, all that kind of thing, nobody knows that stuff. Now, look, thank you for pointing that out. That's a very important point. That information will be between and the family who give it to the police officer concerned, which is the search and rescue manager coordinator, possibly um one or two senior police who are working with him and and me, if they share it with me.
Inspirational Rescues and Success Factors
00:15:29
Speaker
I'm curious when you talk about some of those those good phone calls you like to get where where you've been proven wrong. Can you think of any stories where people have surprised you by surviving well outside estimates and statistical data?
00:15:48
Speaker
There are two immediately that that come to mind. And and these resulted in the other kind of happy phone call that I get, which is not you you didn't expect him to be alive, but he is but we found him alive within within what what was expected.
00:16:02
Speaker
And those those are those are the the equally happy phone calls. um We had a chap quite some years ago who lost got lost on Morton Island. And he was a Brazilian ah visiting and he came to a conference on the Gold Coast.
00:16:17
Speaker
He um caught a ferry across to Moreton Island just to just to do a day walk and didn't catch the ferry back again. The next morning, the people at the conference ah said, you know, he hasn't pitched up at the conference. They phoned the hotel and the hotel so said, well, he left yesterday. He's he's gone. and We believe he's gone to Moreton Island.
00:16:38
Speaker
The police immediately spoke to the ferry who said, yes, he got off the ferry, ah but he didn't catch the ferry back again. So um ah plus one day, a search was started on Moreton Island.
00:16:50
Speaker
um And it was a very extensive ground search. Very, very early in the in the piece, the police contacted his brother in Brazil and um obtained a massive information from him.
00:17:02
Speaker
He said that the the missing man was a very resilient individual. um He was a very tough guy. He was a very intelligent guy. He was very thinking. In his youth, he'd been the guide in the Amazon jungle.
00:17:15
Speaker
He'd been lost twice and he'd survived. um And we said, okay, what would he do in the following circumstances? and we had long discussions. And in the end, we were of the opinion that if he got lost, he would know exactly what to do. He would walk up the the part of Norton Island where he was lost is very, very steep gullies, up and down, very, very dense vegetation.
00:17:38
Speaker
It has a beach on the west side from which you can see the lights of um the mainland Queensland. And it has a road that transects it going from west to east. So if he hit the road, he would know where he was.
00:17:51
Speaker
and If he hit the coast, he would know where he was. If he went up, he'd be able to see the lights at night. We were confident he'd go up. We were quite confident that he would use vegetation to best advantage to make some shelter.
00:18:04
Speaker
um I was quite confident that if it rained, he would take leaves. He would use the leaves to funnel the water into his mouth to drink. or he would go down to a hollow, he'd find a wet hollow, and he would dig until he was able to find some sort of water.
00:18:18
Speaker
He would probably use a sock to filter the water through so that he got the sand out, he had fairly clear water. um And he would do everything that he could think of, everything we could think of to survive.
00:18:31
Speaker
So by day two or three or day four, um there had been no rain, there was no ground water, ah There'd now been no rain for a couple of days. um We were getting to the stage where I was saying, well, at this stage, survival till the end of tomorrow or the day after, um depending which stage we were having the conversation, um is possible. Beyond that, survival prospects are very poor.
00:18:55
Speaker
Then um in the middle of the search, we had quite heavy rain one night. i said, great. If he did everything that we expect, if he collected water, if he found water in a hollow, if he took shelter, um he could survive. And if he's had a big drink or a couple of big drinks, in terms of fluid intake, the survival clock starts again.
00:19:15
Speaker
So we extended the survival period. Now we got today sort of seven, eight, nine, and there was a lot of pressure um on police to stop. It was a difficult operation. We had a lot of soldiers from the army base at Nogra. We had a lot of SES personnel. We had a lot of police personnel um in very hot, very humid, very um adverse conditions, searching in dense vegetation.
00:19:37
Speaker
And um At that stage, there was a lot of pressure and I said, no, it is possible for him to be alive because we'd had another little bit of rain. And again, um extended the timeframe for survival. survival The two police officers in charge of the search dug their heels in and they said, the medical advice we have is that survival is possible. We will go on searching.
00:19:59
Speaker
And a lot of pressure on everybody too to scale down and stop the search. And got to the point which I said, okay, um I think that by the end of tomorrow, and this was day 10, we will have reached the practical limit of survival. I do not see a prospect of survival beyond the end of day on day 10.
00:20:20
Speaker
At, I think, half past 11 on the morning of day 10, he was found curled up in the sand alive, barely alive, but alive. um And, uh,
00:20:31
Speaker
but He was winched out by helicopter, taken to hospital, and we interviewed him a few days later. We had a detailed debrief with him. What did you do? he said, I walked up the sand dunes so that I could see the lights. I could see the lights.
00:20:45
Speaker
I knew where the mainland was, but I walked down the dunes and became totally disorientated, working my way through the bush. I knew that the beach was on the side of the mainland, but I couldn't find the beach because I lost direction.
00:20:58
Speaker
and I waited until it rained. I collected water. ah There were some palms and some plants that had big leaves. I used those to collect water. I collected water in my jumper and then squeezed out the water to drink that and I was able to have um enough water for me to pass urine a number of times. That's great because that tells me he was fairly well hydrated.
00:21:18
Speaker
At night he sheltered in ah in a cool spot and protected himself. um By day he tried to find his way out, but again he was just lost in the sand dunes and the thick bush and he was obviously just just walking around and around and around, could not find his way out.
00:21:34
Speaker
He heard people calling him But he had read that there were pigs on Morton Island that attacked people, and and he thought that the the young voices were pigs.
00:21:46
Speaker
Because of the canopy, and he could not see ah the aircraft overhead, although he could hear helicopters, and he knew that people were searching for him. So he tried to make himself visible, but he couldn't find a clear enough patch. Eventually, he did find a clear patch, and he stayed there.
00:22:03
Speaker
He found a patch where there was no canopy and he stayed in the middle of the patch. He said, I found the clear patch. The first one I found, and he said, if going to see me, it's because I'm in this clear patch. And he waited in the clear patch.
00:22:16
Speaker
And that's that's how we found him. So he did everything that that we would we would expect. um Other remarkable one was a prospector um who ah went walkabout in West Australia.
00:22:28
Speaker
and he went out for an hour diabetic, carried with him some food so that if his blood sugar dropped he could have something to eat and carried with him one bottle of water. Went out at four o'clock in the afternoon, said he'd be back at five, didn't come back. So instead of waiting until the next day or the next day, ah that's the other important thing families to do.
00:22:48
Speaker
When somebody's missing, don't wait. If they're missing, phone again, don't phone a friend, Phone police, phone a friend and see if he's there, yes, okay. But as soon as you were sure that somebody's missing, phone immediately, don't wait till the next day or late the next day, which happens more often than I can tell you.
00:23:05
Speaker
So um he was due back at five, didn't come back at five, at six o'clock they phoned police and said, our 72 old is missing. He had mild dementia, but didn't sound as though it it was bad enough.
00:23:19
Speaker
So a search and rescue operation was launched immediately, and the West Australian TRG, Tactical Response Group, trackers, went out to look for him. And they are the most incredible team, and I hope some of them hear this and and relay just how good I think they are.
00:23:33
Speaker
Now, um we reasoned that um because of his um lack of knowledge of the terrain, and the fact that it was fairly flat and leading into a salt pan and a degree of dementia, he would walk backwards and forwards and backtrack a little bit. He would not be walking in an absolutely straight line.
00:23:50
Speaker
Once he got out of the salt pan, he might be able to see, and gain a sense of direction and walk towards um something. But he was more likely than not to walk haphazardly.
00:24:02
Speaker
um Day two came and day three came. and I had anticipated that he he would survive until the end of the day on um Tuesday. Then on Monday, in the middle of the day, I got a phone call from police to say um the TRG had found his tracks and they thought that the tracks were about 24 hours old.
00:24:24
Speaker
He was walking um you ah uniformly, as in his his some footprints were evenly spaced, and they were even distance apart from left to right.
00:24:36
Speaker
and There was no heel indent. In other words, he was walking. He was not staggering. He was walking purposefully, so he was still fairly competent. So I increased as the prospect of survival and by 24 hours because I did not think that if he was like that, that he would be dead when I thought he would.
00:24:55
Speaker
Extended the the time frame for survival until the end of the following day. The trackers kept on following him. And at um about midday on the day on which I thought he would he would um die, the police trackers found him.
00:25:11
Speaker
And in fact, what happened was they extended the search. They sent out a team to set up a radio relay station. The guys set up the radio relay station at the top of a hill. walked down the hill, and there he was lying immobile, as I'd expected, um underneath some basic ah shelter at Lugtree, as we'd expected, and near death, as we'd expected.
00:25:32
Speaker
ah thanks As they very often do, a medic very close by, ah the TRG got to him, They ah put up a drip and gave him a litre and a half of fluid intravenously.
00:25:46
Speaker
He was able to spit the flies out of his mouth and close his mouth and his breathing and his pulpit pulse improved. After three litres of intravenous fluid, he was able to open his eyes and he was still too unstable to move, ah to evacuate by helicopter. There were lots of reasons for that.
00:26:04
Speaker
um So eventually they were able to walk him very slowly a distance to a vehicle that they could get in and take him out. Wow. so um He was within, just within the expected survival time.
00:26:18
Speaker
And we have become fairly good at estimating survival times fairly accurately because of the feedback police give me, because they phone and say, we found him at such and such a time. This was his condition.
00:26:29
Speaker
This was the distance from point last seen, which is also vital. Mm-hmm. being able to estimate next time so how far somebody might go. um he was between seven and eight kilometers from point last seen.
00:26:43
Speaker
But that demonstrates that the police um take advice, they seek further advice, they come back with updates. And it for example, in that case, the updated information was absolutely crucial to extending ah my estimate of the timeframe for survival and to finding him alive within that that survival window.
00:27:03
Speaker
And that's one of the one of the magic finds that we've had. Never give up.
Demographics of Missing Persons
00:27:09
Speaker
Do you have a personal story about an incident or time during an outdoor trip when something didn't quite go to plan? Maybe you got lost, injured, let down by some gear or something else. Look, honestly, it can happen to any of us at any time, regardless of how experienced we are.
00:27:27
Speaker
And it's by sharing these stories that we can all learn and help avoid them in the future. If that's you, I'd love to hear from you. So please drop me an email to rescued at lotsafreshair.com.
00:27:40
Speaker
That's L-O-T-S-A, freshair.com.
00:27:44
Speaker
I'm curious about demographics of missing people and of people. And we've we've talked already about solo people going out by themselves as being really critical, critical issue and ah very much a common thread across cases that you've been dealing with.
00:28:04
Speaker
Can you speak at all about the demographics generally of the people that come across your pathway that you may get a call for, call about? call about When it comes to to land searches, one large group is elderly demented people ah with dementia of varying degrees who go for a walk in the morning and don't come back.
00:28:28
Speaker
That is a very large group. Then there is a second group of people who are more likely to be in this sort of 20 to 50 area who leave home with suicidal intent And then the question for us is, whether it's um firstly, whether we we do believe they have suicidal intent, then whether it's a completed suicide or maybe an incomplete suicide, and then you try and plan what they would do in those.
Preventative Education and Survival Advice
00:28:57
Speaker
In terms of people who've gone, for example, for a bushwalk and got lost, they are predominantly male, they're predominantly in the sort of 20 50 age and we don't often i don't often get calls about um women who are missing by themselves other than in possible suicide cases in terms of people who are missing while they are rock fishing um a very high proportion of those are asian males again usually in the sort of 20 to 50 age group and
00:29:32
Speaker
yeah I don't know whether going rock fishing is more popular in the Asian immigrant community. And in fact, quite a lot of them are visitors who come um to visit Asian relatives here.
00:29:45
Speaker
But they have a and a high ah missing and death rate, in particularly in rock fishing. That comes back to a public education. How you get those messages across is very, very difficult.
00:29:58
Speaker
and Take, for example, Mount Augustus in South Australia. and It's an area where quite a lot of people have died because they go out on a walk, they go out on very hot, dry rock in high temperatures and die on the usually on the way back of hyperthermia.
00:30:14
Speaker
And we've had a considerable number of people have died in that particular area, as we've had a lot of rock fishermen die at salmon holes in Albany and West Australia. So how do you stop them doing it? do You have as much public education as you can um and you resort to actually putting a sign at the and beginning of the path to places like this saying this is a dangerous area and you then actually resort to the to the lengths of of putting a board on which you say twelfth of April 1996, 28 year old male died here on walk.
00:30:47
Speaker
twenty eight year old male died here on this walk um And then you go all the way up to 2nd of January 2024, 18-year-old female died on this walk.
00:30:59
Speaker
um Does that have an effect? Doesn't seem to. and Because, oh no, they obviously weren't prepared, they obviously weren't fit, they obviously weren't me. I can do this. Well, people die because they don't think it can happen to them, and it does happen to them. I really do not know how you get that message across.
00:31:19
Speaker
Is there anything else that you, from your extensive experience, both clinically and in in Rescue Yourself, Search and Rescue Yourself, that you think is going to be a great learning and a great lesson for us listening?
00:31:32
Speaker
Oh, look, three of a thousand thoughts come to mind. something happens to you and you do become lost or injured, the first thing to do is stop. Stop, wait for the the feeling of of dismay, of panic, of whatever else to do just stop.
00:31:48
Speaker
And that's one of the major survival lessons in an aircraft crash. Get out of the aircraft and stop. Stop, take stock of what you've got and and and plan where you're going to go from there.
00:32:00
Speaker
The second area is um in with people with dementia, it would be phenomenal if every person ah with dementia had some kind of tracking device on them.
00:32:13
Speaker
Now, be it an Apple AirTag that you put on on a bracelet around their wrist or one of the many devices that give people's locations. And if they think of an Apple AirTag as a simple example, you can use Find My Phone and you can know exactly where they are.
00:32:27
Speaker
yeah know you It might be that you've know put it in their clothing or put it on a wristband or as ah a pretty thing around the neck or whatever. But devices like that would help with people with dementia. Now that's important because we look for so many people with dementia who wander away.
00:32:42
Speaker
And finding them alive is a matter of doing so quickly because very often they're not able to understand that they're lost, not able to understand that water is a key determinant of their survival. Very often if they see water they won't drink it. If they see a tap, they won't go to the tap and have water.
00:32:58
Speaker
So one of the burning questions that we ask the family is, if they see water, will they drink it? If they see a tap, will they go and access the tap? If they see a person, will they go and ask them for help?
00:33:10
Speaker
Possibly not, because in dementia they don't realize it. So as some tracking device on people with dementia, And another very common um cause for search and rescue operation at the moment is people who leave home with suicidal intent.
00:33:24
Speaker
So if the family knows that somebody is distressed, um if they know that they have mental health issues, please, as much as you can, um keep track of their mental status and their and their status.
00:33:37
Speaker
Quite often people will say, but you know, last week everything was different. Suddenly they were bright, they were cheerful, they were happy, they stopped worrying about so and so. We thought fantastic, they're on top of this.
00:33:51
Speaker
That's not always a good sign because that in improve that quite often means that they're happy because they've made the plan. They know what they're going to do. They're not worried about it anymore. They've got their decision made. They know what they're going to do. They know where they're going So if you see that, keep an even more careful eye on them.
00:34:08
Speaker
And if they're missing, ah tell authorities as soon as you possibly can. So tell authorities, but start at the same time phoning around. Phone the friends, phone where they used to work, phone the shops where they go to, go to the shops where they used to go to, um but let people know that your your loved one is missing.
00:34:26
Speaker
Don't delay, because the more you delay, the wider the search area, more time has has elapsed, the more possibility is that bad things have happened. So act early. And that act early is one of the great things if anybody is is missing.
00:34:41
Speaker
And be proactive. Plan what you're going to do if your demented partner or loved one is suddenly gone for 10 hours. you know Hopefully you'll notice long before 10.
00:34:54
Speaker
It's very common um for people to phone and say, we put them to bed at 7 o'clock last night. They were not there at 8 o'clock this morning. So if you put them to bed at 7 o'clock, an elderly demented person, before you go to bed at 9 or 10, just open the bedroom door, check they're still there.
00:35:11
Speaker
Because then if they're not, we know about it at 10 o'clock at night, not 8 o'clock the next morning. If you get up at 6 o'clock, just open the door a crack and check that they're still there. Don't wait till they don't come out at 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock.
00:35:22
Speaker
and Because every hour is so important. Every single hour in a search and rescue is important. at At one international symposium on search and rescue, I was given a badge that said search and rescue is always an emergency.
00:35:37
Speaker
And when people phone me and say, look, you know, I'm sorry to phone you now. You know, we don't know much yet about, or um I wondered about phoning. I say, no, no, search and rescue is always an emergency. Start as soon as you possibly can.
00:35:49
Speaker
So the earlier we call, the better. The earlier we call, the better.
Conclusion and Acknowledgments
00:35:53
Speaker
Well, Paul, thank you so much. There is so much so much gold, so much treasure in in all that we've um we've been discussing and in all that you've shared.
00:36:04
Speaker
And thank you so much for your willingness to speak because, as you said, you tend to hide in the shadows a little bit. um And the only people who know about these types of roles are usually the people who are involved in it.
00:36:18
Speaker
um But I think that the the yeah the lessons that you've learnt and that you can share um ah incredibly valuable and will be valuable to a whole lot of people who are hearing this. so And if not, that to them, because as you said, we could be preaching to the converted, to their loved ones and to the people that they care about as they share these stories as well.
00:36:38
Speaker
Well, Clara, thank you for your your tolerance and and thank you above all for for spreading the love, spreading the message, getting getting it out there and telling people,
00:36:57
Speaker
If you've enjoyed this powerful story or one of the many others from my super generous guests, you can help more people connect and hear these valuable lessons simply by leaving a five-star review. And why not even click that little bitty share button on your podcast app and help your outdoorsy mates find it too.
00:37:17
Speaker
The Rescued podcast is produced on the unceded lands of the Gondungara people of the Blue Mountains of New South Wales. I pay my respects to the elders past and present and acknowledge their enduring connection to and care for country.
00:37:32
Speaker
Special thanks to our sponsors, Paddy Pallon. This has been Lots of Fresh Air production.