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002 // Matt U'Brien - Former Blue Mountains Police Rescue Squad
6.9k Plays1 year ago
Matt U’Brien’s story is powerful.
During his 17-year policing career (mostly within the Police Rescue Squad), he’s done literally hundreds of rescues and saved countless lives whilst risking his own.
What’s unique about Matt, is that during this time he also found himself in the critical position of needing to be rescued himself.
For this, and many more reasons, I’ve asked him to join me for a special double episode to share his experiences from both sides of the rescue coin.
We talk about what led him to join Police Rescue, his love of the bush and canyoning, and some of his insights from years of helping out people like you and me, who just love being in nature. Oh, and if you’re squeamish about your family jewels, you might want to stop listening between 19:30-21:00.
Today, he’s on a different journey, one that comes as a consequence of his years spent serving the community, often being alongside people on the worst day of their lives. This year will see him travel 2,400 km from the Lambert centre of Australia (Heart of Country), to Parliament House in Canberra (Heart of Nation), with a critical message for our Country’s leaders.
You can connect with Matt and his podcast at https://linktr.ee/h2hwalk
And the Heart 2 Heart Walk at https://www.heart2heartwalk.org/
Check out the current work of the Blue Mountains Police Rescue Squad at https://www.facebook.com/BlueMtnsPoliceRescue
To learn more about what to take on a hike and loads of helpful tips and tricks, visit my website: lotsafreshair.com where you can also download free packing lists for day and overnight hikes.
Or head over to my YouTube channel for over 100 videos on how-to’s and where-to’s.
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The content in this episode may be confronting and difficult for some listeners; it includes issues of PTSD, depression, anxiety, suicide and trauma. Remember, if you need help to reach out by Googling ‘Mental Health Helpline’ in your area.
In Australia, you can call Lifeline 24/7 on 13 11 14 or visit BeyondBlue.org.au.
Further urgent help and information for first responders can be found at Phoenix Australia.
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Sponsor // Paddy Pallin
Rescued Podcast main photo // Ben Cirulis and fotografija.com.au
Nature SFX // freesound.org [Kangaroo Vindaloo and Monkey Pants]
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Rescued' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Rescued is a podcast of conversations with rescuers and those who've been rescued. It's about the lessons we learn about ourselves, the places we go and why, without judgement, to help us have better adventures, manage risk and deal with the unexpected.
Discussions on Trauma and Mental Health
00:00:20
Speaker
The following episode touches on subjects such as trauma, mental health and suicide. So please take a sec and consider who's listening. And that includes you. And remember, if you need to chat things through, you can always call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or visit beyondblue.org.au.
Matt U'Brien's Rescue Journey
00:00:42
Speaker
You know those people you keep hearing about in life, talked about by people that you respect, but your paths have never actually crossed. Well, that's my guest for this episode of Rescued. Matt U'Brien's story is so powerful. Having been both a rescuer during his 17-year policing career, most of that within Police Rescue Squad,
00:01:02
Speaker
then as a retained firefighter in fire and rescue New South Wales. Look, he's done literally hundreds of rescues and saved countless lives whilst risking his own. Now, what's special about Matt is during this time, he also found himself in the critical position of needing to be rescued himself.
Influences from Childhood Adventures
00:01:20
Speaker
So because of this and as well as him being an absolutely top and lovely bloke, I've asked him to join me for a double episode to share about his experiences from both sides of the rescue coin.
00:01:32
Speaker
Today, he's on a different journey, which we'll talk a little bit more about later. Matt U'Brien, welcome to Rescued. Thanks, Garo. Matt, why don't we start with the stuff that we all have in common? A love of the bush and of nature. Tell me about what your earliest memory was of getting out in the bush.
00:01:52
Speaker
I think as a kid, I was pretty lucky. I grew up out in Bathurst in the central west of New South Wales. I spent most of my time like all my mates on BMX bikes out on the fringes of town at least. I love trout fishing so I'd ride my bike literally for hours just to get on a
00:02:11
Speaker
nice secluded part of the Macquarie River and go fishing. I absolutely loved getting out of town. Off the concrete, hey? Yeah, get off the concrete and probably worried my mother sick most weekends because no mobile phones or anything and I'd go missing for the entire day and she'd have absolutely no idea where I was and what I'd gotten up to.
00:02:32
Speaker
You guarantee I wasn't in town. So I've loved the outdoors. And, you know, as a young bloke, I think that evolved, like many of my friends, into, you know, army stories and, you know, wandering around the bush with a backpack, thinking you're in Vietnam. And I certainly did a lot of, you know, very ill-prepared solo trips in my younger years in the bush. A few epics there.
00:02:56
Speaker
Yeah. And actually I moved up to a place called Ocean Shores near Brunswick Heads when I was just in my early high school years and I actually didn't like it up there too much, but it was a great place to go exploring.
00:03:11
Speaker
I didn't like the humidity and the cane toads actually. That's what I didn't like about the place. But the, yeah, I spent a lot of time, you know, exploring the rivers and just wandering around the bush. And a lot of that was actually on my own. So I'd, you know, do my best research in my SAS survival handbook and go out and try new things out in the bush and see how they worked from the, from the book to the field. But yeah, I certainly spent my fair share of my childhood out in the sticks for sure.
00:03:37
Speaker
And so thinking back to those times and those sort of epic adventures that you had and, you know, your SAS Handbook and, you know, boy's own adventure kind of thing. Can you remember what that place made you feel and what it felt like and what it did for you as a person?
00:03:51
Speaker
It's never really changed, actually. It's always been a comfortable place for me, I think, just the, you know, going somewhere where you can't hear anyone. I think that's why I love the Simpson Desert so much because you get out there and you're so far away from everything and everyone. And, you know, all you can hear is that, you know, that sandy desert, not much else. And, you know, I love that sort of isolation. And I think that just that comfort or that I actually don't know what it is, but it draws me back, that's for sure.
00:04:20
Speaker
Amazing. And I think, you know, as a kid, you know, I used to look in Envy when Les Hiddens had a show and a major from the Australian Army had that Bush Tuckerman show.
Career Path: Jackaroo to Police Officer
00:04:30
Speaker
And I used to look at the places that he went and went, wow, I'd love that job. You know, I just used to watch those things relentlessly while I was stuck at home in the house. I'd just, you know, watch that as my escape, watching where he was. So
00:04:44
Speaker
stuck at home with the cane toads. Thinking of work then, how did you go from being this cane toad, swatting kid, and runs with heads, having little epics of your own out in the bush to then finding yourself on this policing pathway? How did the career side of things come up for you?
00:05:03
Speaker
Yeah, straight out of school, I was probably just a little lost. I didn't really exactly know what I wanted to do. So I went and worked as a Jackaroo out on a farm out in the central west of New South Wales for a few years. And, you know, that was a good combination of outdoor life and work blended in together as a farm hand.
00:05:21
Speaker
living that life. But I soon realized that there was another calling for me and policing certainly in my family. So a lot of people like myself are a bit torn between do they go into fence or policing or fire brigade or ambos or something like that. And I think the policing path for me was a little bit already paved in a way given the
00:05:40
Speaker
family history in there, so I went down that path. Yeah, lucky for me, I started at Penrith for six months and then up into the mountains, the second station in my service was up at Katoomba. So, yeah, I sat up there on my very junior policing days at the age of 21, I think I would have been about then. Yeah. Wow. So, I mean, A, you got posted to God's Own Country pretty early on there. It was pretty nice. Had you spent much time in the Blue Mountains before then?
00:06:08
Speaker
No, not at all, actually. And one of the reasons that Catumba was my place of choice, we didn't really get a lot of say in where we went. We could sort of make an indication, but it was as far west as you could go in the Sydney metropolitan policing zone. And in my class was all Sydney metropolitan placed. So I got as far west as I possibly could. And that was Catumba. And yeah, but I quickly learned to love the place.
Transition to Police Rescue
00:06:36
Speaker
And
00:06:37
Speaker
There's a tiny bit of early, I suppose, mishap connection to the mountains. Actually, two of my school friends actually lost their lives in the Blue Mountains when we were in the sort of high school years. One died in a plane crash over the mountains with another young bloke in a plane and another fellow was hit by a car, trying to help a horse off the road on the bells on a road.
00:07:03
Speaker
You know, realistically, that's probably I probably should have looked more into that before I started doing what I did up there. But yeah, there was there was no connection to the Blue Mountains for me other than, you know, trying to get west in the police. And but, you know, it didn't take too long before I like most people's stories in the mountains. I think you get up there and you go, wow, I'm not going. I'm not going anywhere. Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:28
Speaker
What's the priority? You said you had that history within the family of policing, but you probably had heard stories from them about what to expect. But when you actually got into the job, when you found yourself in uniform, pounding the pavement, so general duties to start, what's the priority? What weren't you expecting?
00:07:50
Speaker
Well, I don't think I was expecting anything that happened in the police, to be honest with you. It's one of those things that you can go and do a whole load of training to get you as ready as you can be. But it's a wild job. There's stuff that happens in the community, in every community, throughout the country that people wouldn't believe or it's quite hard to fathom when you're not exposed to it on that.
00:08:15
Speaker
That frequency I guess, but it was so different for me actually coming from Penrithup to Catumba as you could imagine the work was very different in a policing context.
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think the one thing that was at Katoomba that wasn't anywhere else or was in the Blue Mountains was actually the police rescue side of things. And that quickly caught my attention. You know, I love police work, don't get me wrong, catching crooks and, you know, helping people. That's what you joined that job for. And, you know, I did that for a long time. But I used to watch the rescue guys and thought, they're having more fun than me.
00:08:51
Speaker
going to domestics and chasing hoodlums on Friday and Saturday nights. I thought, man, it quickly caught my attention. Actually, back in the early time, I think I'd sort of started doing quite a bit of canyoning and done a fair share of bushwalking and a lot of physical training actually just out in the bush, just as part of how I was living up there at the time.
00:09:14
Speaker
When I started down the canyoning route, I loved it. And I knew the rescue guys were doing that for work. And yeah, the threadbare landslide happened. And, you know, to watch the deployments that they were doing down there to help with the landslide and
00:09:32
Speaker
Um, you know, just to, I guess that, um, just knowing that major operation was going on in the background and what they were doing down there. I thought, wow, that'd be great to be part of that. So I think that's where it really did spark my interest in seriously thinking about how to get into it.
00:09:48
Speaker
Because there's that thing that I've always thought of with with the
New South Wales Police Rescue Setup
00:09:51
Speaker
cops is that, you know, there's not really many other careers in this world where you see people on the worst day of their lives often, you know, and there's something about rescue, though, then that is this branch of the police that people are always happy to see. Yeah, I think it's about the only one. Yeah, as a general duties, you're likely to see people who aren't that happy to see you sometimes.
00:10:16
Speaker
But rescue is the other one. Yeah. Very big contrast, actually. Yeah, super. And it was quite strange. You go from a Friday night on general duties, doing the usual Friday night alcohol-fueled jobs and everything that comes with that. And then in that part-time role, when I was doing rescue part-time, you could go from literally being deployed to a pub brawl
00:10:43
Speaker
And the next thing you know, you've got to race back to the station, grab the rescue truck, change your clothes and take off to an accident or something else. So really different work. It couldn't have been a bigger contrast, to be honest with you. But I don't know that there's too many sections in the police that would have that sort of variation in their day-to-day work.
00:11:04
Speaker
Do you want to just talk about that a bit more? Because I don't think a lot of people understand that you said change your clothes. I kind of think like Superman popping into the phone box sometimes, you're changing out of the blues and into the whites. And I think if we were to believe, good old Gary Sweet back in the 90s in Police Rescue at ABC show, that there's this huge station full of people always in white full time. But that's not always the case, is it?
00:11:33
Speaker
No, and definitely not back in the early days. There was only really one full-time rescue squad operator in the Blue Mountains that was the rescue coordinator, the sergeant, and everybody else was a part-time operator. So they were either in general duties, highway patrol, or some other duties in their primary policing role. And then as a part-time role, they would do rescue. The police do have quite a few part-time positions where specialist duties are done on the side of another duty.
00:12:01
Speaker
But yeah, rescue is certainly one of the more technical and contrasting ones. A lot of the other ones are sort of still law enforcement focused like Public Order and Right Squad and things like that that are still, you know, what you would guess would be mainstream police work.
00:12:18
Speaker
I'm not 100% sure. I think New South Wales might be the only state in the country that's actually got that dedicated police allocation to that rescue function.
Challenges of Part-time Rescue Operations
00:12:29
Speaker
I was actually only just talking to a South Australian police officer the other day. He was explaining the star group down there, Special Tasks and Rescue, but they're a joint tactical and rescue squad.
00:12:43
Speaker
so they do special weapons and armed offender work with a rescue capability and that's how i think a lot of the other states are configured if there is a rescue function there it's tied up in that tactical element but getting back to what you said yeah definitely you know when i first started in it every operator was a part-time operator so
00:13:01
Speaker
you know they were either at home on call on a day off or between shifts or on call while at work so yeah you're right and usually you didn't actually have time to completely get changed it throw the white over the blues and you'd see these little blue general duty shirt collars sticking out from under the white overalls and at the accidents and things like that where it was a real scramble for time so.
00:13:23
Speaker
That's how it works. Very big contrast in the job on the day that you could be doing. Do you have a personal story about an incident or rescue during an outdoor trip when something didn't quite go to plan? Maybe you got lost, injured, let down by some gear, preparation, or something else. Honestly, it can happen to any of us at any time, regardless of how experienced we are.
00:13:52
Speaker
And it's by sharing these stories and tales that we can all learn and help to avoid them in the future. So if that's you, I'd love to hear from you. So please drop me an email to rescued at lotsofreshshare.com. That's rescued with a D. So thread bow happened and your mind was turned over to see, hang on, there's this other side of, you know, doing, like you said, this canyoning, this stuff that you were starting to do a lot more of in your own life.
00:14:20
Speaker
How did you then progress through into rescue and what's that pathway? How was that for you? To be honest with you, I'd obviously been showing an interest to the current operators just with my outdoor pursuits at my own time.
00:14:36
Speaker
You know pretty jealous while I'm going between domestics and noise complaints while they're out, you know Practicing what I would do on a day off. So
Inspiration from Thredbo Landslide
00:14:44
Speaker
I thought wow I got to get into that the pathway in there literally was Vacancies got to be available first up and then apply for it like most things in the police and most other government departments
00:14:53
Speaker
There's certainly assessments, suitability assessments and things that you've got to go through just to make sure that you've got the physical and technical aptitude for the role and then they send you on to your initial training which was, I think it's still the same actually, six weeks straight. Did that in 1999.
00:15:11
Speaker
That's actually going back to your police rescue show. Down in Sydney is exactly where they modeled that show off because it is exactly what you think it would be where they've got full-time operators and trucks everywhere and rolling to jobs and you're just waiting for that phone to ring a bit more like the fire brigade do, I guess, in that sense. Then you were based back up in the Blue Mountains into rescue. What were the kind of things that you were doing? What kind of jobs were you finding yourself on?
00:15:40
Speaker
I guess back in those days, the highway wasn't as good as it is these days. So we used to do a lot of MVA work, like I said, just normal road accident rescue type response work. But you know, we still got our fair share of bush work. You know, realistically, that was what I was interested in was the rope and remote area work rather than the heavy rescue and industrial type work that actually was part of the deal. And I'm not sure that I would have pursued it, to be honest with you. If it was more of a heavy industrial rescue area,
00:16:08
Speaker
I don't know that I actually would have gone down that path because that was certainly never what drove me to try and push for getting better at it and really trying to explore how to do this job better and give you that drive.
00:16:24
Speaker
You know, that sort of constant workload of search and rescue, cliff work, overdue walkers, the unfortunate element that is part of the work up in the Blue Mountains, obviously a lot of suicides up there off the cliffs and things like that, which is probably a little bit unique probably other than the Sydney Cliff line in that sense.
00:16:46
Speaker
That was a fairly decent workload back in those days with the resources that we had. And I know the jobs up there these days are magnitudes more frequent than what they were back then, but the resources were also a lot slimmer. It's always sporadic. That work is never very predictable, but obviously summer with the tourism comes more bush jobs and then wet weather and bad weather, more accidents. So you could nearly always pick it.
00:17:15
Speaker
Isn't that the interesting thing, though, about summer being the more jobs? It's like the time when I guess the more experienced bushwalkers and hikers and stuff, we know that actually winter's an awesome time to go and climb some big hills and get out to Kananga and do all that kind of stuff. But it's those summer months when people have the time off and they go, oh, I know. I'll go for my once-in-year bushwalk. And probably the conditions aren't that enjoyable, really.
00:17:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. And, you know, I think you find people out in the bush, particularly in the Blue Mountains in winter, you know, if they're out there, then they usually know what they're doing better prepared because they've got the, you know, they've invested that preparation and capability to do whatever it is that they're doing. Certainly exceptions to that with people that get caught out. But, you know, quite often that would be the case. But yeah, you're right. Like that volume tourism
00:18:08
Speaker
was always a standing workload in that sense where, you know, you get those inevitable jobs at last light with people ringing up with marginal phone signal in their high-heel shoes down in one of the valley floor tracks somewhere and not sure where they can get out or the train's finished for the day. And they were overdue and, you know, those sort of jobs all the time. They still happen without you, Matt. I can tell you that now. I know they would be. Some things never change.
Variety of Rescue Missions
00:18:41
Speaker
So what are some of the jobs and you said it was unexpected and you know all sorts of things happen so you know hiking or canyon jobs or mountain biking unique ones you want to share?
00:18:51
Speaker
There's so much variety up there as you'd understand with the outdoor adventure sports, everything from base jumpers to rock climbing accidents, bushwalking, the typical rolled ankle type stuff. You'd get these outlier jobs every now and then. I don't know what rating your podcast is going to be, but there's one job that's sort of quite comically... Comically is probably a bad way to put it, but you're embedded with black humour in this job.
00:19:19
Speaker
I did do a job one day on one of the tracks at the back of Blackheath. It came across as a mountain biking accident. Typically, there's going to be a broken collarbone or something like that. Anyway, I was working in Blackheath at the time, so I went down the trail and come across the person. I was on my own and I pulled up, saw the guy on the side of the track with a mountain bike beside him. Here we are, I pulled up. As I've walked up, he's looked up at me with these desperate big puppy eyes and
00:19:48
Speaker
I've looked down between his legs and he'd actually broken his scrotum open through his pants by hitting the handlebar over a jump. And he's sitting there with some of his good friends in his hand saying, what do I do? And I've just looked at him and said, mate, I'm so sorry. I have no idea. You're going to have to sit with me until the airbags get here with some pain relief. I don't know.
00:20:16
Speaker
Oh, the family, too. Yeah, yeah. It's like it's quite a sight. And the poor guy said to me, I'm meant to be flying home to the UK tomorrow. Do you reckon I'm still going? I said, mate, I'm no EMBay, but I don't think so. Oh, man. You get those things happen. And
00:20:35
Speaker
If you don't laugh, you cry in that job. We actually sat there and had a bit of a giggle together while we were waiting for the ambos over a few things. Oh man, he must have been delirious. He was quite well composed, actually, given his situation. Oh lordy. You get those sort of things.
00:20:55
Speaker
quite seriously contrast with the opposite end of the spectrum where you've got really unfortunate people that have come a proper cropper and found themselves in a real pickle that's desperately serious. You never really know what you're going to or what you're going to get on any given day. That used to keep you on your toes.
00:21:20
Speaker
I can imagine. You mentioned there, black humour is something that happens a lot on the job. As a coping or if you're not laughing, you're crying. Like you said, that was the lighter end of the scale of jobs. The very nature of the role of the job of the situations that you found yourself in, you can't help but question from the outside perspective how on earth
00:21:47
Speaker
how on earth do people deal with the stuff that you're faced with every day, seeing people on the worst day of their lives? Yeah, it's one of those things that I've reflected on a lot over the years. And I don't know whether really at the time I was doing that job full time that I really understood that the things that I was going to, even though they were routine jobs for me, were typically going to be the worst day in someone's life full stop. And
00:22:15
Speaker
I think you get a bit numb and you have to. You have to switch off to that fact just for your own survival really. But yeah, it is one of those things that I hope they're getting better at it because typically back in the day, in the good old slash bad old days, whatever you want to refer to them as, the debrief was usually a beer at the pub.
00:22:39
Speaker
There's not a lot of other support available or afforded to you at the time, nor would it have been acceptable or accepted given the sort of, I suppose, mandatory robustness your character had to have in that job.
Coping with Stress and PTSD in Rescue Work
00:22:57
Speaker
Policing's like that generally, and particularly once you add one of the specialist functions onto it, I think there's an expectation that you're even more stoic to that sort of
00:23:07
Speaker
uh, adversities and then normal. So yeah, there's definitely a, definitely a tough thing, you know, like there, um, it's, uh, it's something I wished I'd done a lot better over my time. Now that I've, now that I've had the experience that I've had and the unfortunate sort of outcome that that's manifested into for me personally, I wished that I'd actually recognize that that job itself is really
00:23:34
Speaker
Really tough. And it's such a, you know, it's an unusual job and it is definitely going to affect you in some way. And I probably wished I had to recognize that and manage that better from right back at the start. And I hope they do that better these days. Well, did you notice change like 17 years in the job? Did you notice things starting to change and more awareness towards things like PTSD?
00:24:05
Speaker
On reflection, absolutely. I think a lot of those changes creep into your life so slowly that you as the individual don't really notice it. And then if you do, you know, everyone says the same thing, but you would do
00:24:21
Speaker
everything you can to mask any outward presentation of anything that you might be struggling with. So, definitely the classic signs of sleeplessness, nightmares, all of that sort of stuff just crept into
00:24:39
Speaker
crept into my life just in a way that I'd just accepted a lot of those changes that had happened over the years. Now that I know what I know and when I look back at it, I go, wow, they were big indicators back then.
00:24:55
Speaker
You know, I think at the time you just sort of go out as part of the job and, yeah, I've had a rough week or whatever. And, you know, particularly if you've had a run, like some weeks are absolutely, you know, tough. Particularly when you get a run of really bad fatalities all in one week and sometimes you can go for months without doing one and then sometimes you'll get three or four in a week.
00:25:15
Speaker
So you just never know, but sometimes those things knock you around a bit and take a bit of a toll. But yeah, it's something that I really do wish that I had better strategies in place throughout my whole life really to help manage those consequences of the work that I was doing.
00:25:35
Speaker
The thing that strikes me all the time is ordinary people doing extraordinary jobs. I think for those who've never been in emergency services, there's this, I don't know, some sort of strange putting up on pedestals like, oh, well, they're police. They're trained. They deal with that sort of stuff all the time. There's some sort of an immunity to it, but the reality is that there's not really, is there?
00:25:59
Speaker
No, it's just, it's just another person you're walking past in the street that's doing that work, you know, and there's certain, I suppose, resilience building strategies that I guess try and stress inoculate you to a point like some of your training's meant to be very, you know, realistic to try and get you better prepared to do all those things in real life. But, you know, the reality of it is some of the stuff that happens is just,
00:26:26
Speaker
You wouldn't want to do it in training because you don't want to do it in reality.
Value and Ripple Effects of Rescue Work
00:26:29
Speaker
And it happens day after day. And yeah, so it's a sad reality, I guess, as a consequence of doing that sort of work for a lot of people.
00:26:43
Speaker
But it's such valuable work. To be able to offer someone at that worst day of their lives, which may be the last day of their lives, whether it be the comfort of a hand on the shoulder or holding a hand or whatever it is, not even having words to say, I don't think you can ever put a value on how priceless those gestures are.
00:27:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. And even down to, you know, as hard as they can be, you know, suicide body recoveries are something that, you know, are usually challenging. But, you know, at the end of the day, as you said, like you're giving someone's loved one back at the end of the day and someone has to do that work. And, you know, it's part of the job and, you know, you do it.
00:27:35
Speaker
There's something that it's not just about, I think of it like the ripples on a pond. The impact happens in the center of this little world that's been created out in the bush under this tree or under this cliff or wherever it is, but the ripples go out much broader than just the people in the immediate impact. Can you talk to me a little bit about the flow and effects to not just the people on the scene?
00:28:03
Speaker
Hmm.
00:28:04
Speaker
Yeah. And look, it's one of those things that a lot of people don't really stop and think of what follows a lot of these events too, because usually they're subject to some sort of investigation that, you know, people are involved in for sometimes years. So, you know, there's a lot of that term that they use for is vicarious trauma, I guess. But it's, you know, there's a lot of people that have to end up unpacking some of these really tragic events. And
00:28:34
Speaker
and recording it. And, you know, there's so many people involved usually in these jobs, from forensics to investigators to the actual rescue operators and, you know, family members getting interviewed and then whatever court system it goes through. So there's so many more people involved in these types of events normally than just those people that are on the scene that you might see on the news. So yeah, it's pretty tricky. And yeah, it is one of those things that sometimes
00:29:04
Speaker
Sometimes you can get those jobs where they're really tough jobs but you're only exposed to it for a short period of time and other times you might be involved in leading the investigation or being part of the investigation which can go on for years and one of the other complexities is some of the more higher profile ones will unfortunately come with a lot of media and political
00:29:27
Speaker
sort of interest, which is another compounding factor on top of what's already pretty challenging anyway. So, you know, those sort of higher profile events have got an additional challenge built into them as well.
Perception of Nature Post-Rescue Career
00:29:48
Speaker
How do you think your experiences over the 17 years, how have they changed the way that you now feel about the bush? Yeah.
00:30:00
Speaker
I think for a long time, for me, it was and still is usually a place that I can go to and enjoy. But unfortunately, for me, the Blue Mountains is not on that list anymore just because of the volume of things that I've done up there. And I was speaking to someone recently that lives up there still.
00:30:21
Speaker
I was trying to invite me up and crack on with some stuff that we used to do and I'm just not up for that these days. Not yet. I hope to one day and I've actually got two daughters and I desperately want to take them up there just to show them what my backyard was because I've got so many great memories from up there.
00:30:40
Speaker
you know, even literally just getting there for me these days is a challenge. And that's, that's one of the prices that I pay for, for what I've done. And I'm working through all of that, that side of things now, you know, fairly intensely treatment wise. But yeah, it is one of those things. Unfortunately, there's a lot of, a lot of reminders for things that I'd rather not remember, you know, just driving through the Blue Mountains, let alone getting out in the bush where I've done a lot of, a lot of work.
00:31:06
Speaker
Yeah. Having seen so much trauma or pain in other people, what they've gone through, what do you want people who spend time in the outdoors, people who love these places?
Advice for Outdoor Enthusiasts
00:31:19
Speaker
What should we think about before we go out? What do we need to know? What do we need to do different? I really admire people that go out and love it and enjoy it for what it should be and what should happen. And anybody that ever came unstuck and needed rescuing
00:31:36
Speaker
in circumstances where they were well prepared and capable of what they're undertaking and just had a misfortune. It can be as simple as just slipping off the side of one slippery rock and that's it for you, you're going on a helicopter. Through no your preparation, they've just unfortunately had that event and I've always actually
00:31:59
Speaker
I shouldn't say enjoyed those jobs, but I've enjoyed them in the sense that I've been able to help someone that's just been out there loving the bush and enjoying their pursuits that bring them happiness. It was always a bit frustrating when you'd get people that were super underprepared that didn't know what they were getting into, but thought they'd give it a go anyway.
00:32:20
Speaker
Those sort of events were always a bit more challenging for me mentally, particularly if they were tricky jobs or dangerous jobs. And yet you'd get really quite frustrated at the people involved when it was just through sheer ill preparation. As a message generally,
00:32:41
Speaker
get into it and enjoy it, but do your research and get yourself in your gear and be prepared for whatever it is that you're undertaking. Don't push the boundaries too much. With the common threads, with the people who did come unstuck, who are unprepared, things you saw coming up time and time again,
00:33:04
Speaker
Yeah, look, there was a lot of sort of simple searches up in the mountains with people that were doing one of the, you know, what would normally be a day walk or a half day walk that have just taken a wrong turn and ended up just pushing on the wrong track and then become disoriented.
00:33:21
Speaker
That was fairly common. If I keep going, it'll get wet. Yeah, I'm sure this is what it looked like. Yeah. So stacks and stacks and stacks are those sort of jobs. And you know what? That sort of stuff happens. And you can't blame someone that's just going for a bit of a day bash that's made a booboo on a Mr Sine or something.
00:33:43
Speaker
that sort of stuff happens. But when you find these people down there in the middle of winter in high-heel shoes and completely unprepared for that weather front that's just come through and then all of a sudden they're ringing triple O, wanting people to come and pick them up. It's like, man, what did you think you were going to do?
00:34:01
Speaker
The other side of things is some of the school group adventures and things like that that often came up while we're up there as search jobs for missing or overdue groups. A lot of those were, I guess, just kids.
00:34:18
Speaker
finding their boundaries of capability and making mistakes. So those sort of things, I guess, were in that basket of, you know, they were out there enjoying themselves doing what they did and just pushed it a bit hard or whatever. But yeah, look, as a general message, just be prepared, do your research, do your homework before you go and take the right gear. There's so much gear out there now that can make this safer and
00:34:44
Speaker
you know, and if it does all go pear shaped, then you can actually get help in remote areas these days with the comms available. Unlike the old days where you'd have to leave a SAR time with a relative and, you know, when you didn't turn up, you'd start looking for that needle in the, in the gross Valley somewhere. And, you know, there is, there are so many options these days for making these adventures safer. You know, why not?
00:35:09
Speaker
Why not? I think the challenge is that it comes back to people just don't know what they don't know. And if you don't know the kind of environment you're going into or expecting to, you're not really knowing what kind of things you need to prepare or what you need to carry or you should because, hey, you live your life in a concrete jungle and, hey, wow, I'm suddenly out in the bush.
00:35:31
Speaker
You know, and I want to go to that lookout. I want to go to that waterfall. I want to go to wherever now. Yeah. And it's the Instagram mindset too is, you know, we can do this in a pair of nice shoes and tiny little shorts and a crop top. Oh, as long as you look good. You know what I mean? And it's like, look at that sort of stuff and go wow. And, you know, the other the other analogy for that is like the
00:35:53
Speaker
Sometimes it used to come up where you'd have these really experienced indoor rock climbers that decide to tackle one of the big faces up in the mountains. It's a different world and there's all the confidence from their capabilities on the poly blocks in the rock climbing gyms.
00:36:10
Speaker
get out there and come unstuck because the techniques are different. Everything's different. Thinking they're prepared, but they're actually not. I guess you could put that over a lot of the mishaps and misadventures that happen is a little bit of overconfidence and underestimating the task at hand combined together is a bit of a bad combination.
Sponsor Acknowledgment and Personal Impact
00:36:37
Speaker
Massive thanks for the support from the team at Patti Pallon, who since 1930 have been leaders in travel and outdoor adventure. In fact, did you know that Patti himself, a member of the Sydney Bushwalkers Club, was a volunteer in the original Search and Rescue Arm of the Federation of Bushwalking Clubs in New South Wales? Hmm, nice one Patti.
00:36:56
Speaker
I'm thinking a little more about your journey where you're at now and you talked about dealing with stuff from what you've seen and places that that puts you in today. Talk to me a little bit about what that place is for you now and some of the work that you're involved with or some of the things you're involved with now and why.
00:37:17
Speaker
Yeah, sure. I'd been cracking on since I left the police force with fire rescue as a part-time firefighter or a trained firefighter. I guess it's probably that analogy of the bucket filling up slowly over the drip, drip, drip. I guess there's probably a bit of that that's happened to me over the years and it's been quite a while since I joined the police in 1995.
00:37:43
Speaker
you know, that's a fairly long innings in the emergency services world. And yeah, so a couple of years ago, I had a, I had a, I call, I don't actually know what to call it, I call it an event or a moment or a, you know, I fell down, I fell in a heap, whatever title you want to put to it. You know, I really came unstuck a couple of years ago.
00:38:07
Speaker
with really severe PTSD and major depression actually as a result of a few things that had happened. It really did rock me and my whole family. It came on very slowly and I held onto it for far too long.
00:38:32
Speaker
trying to manage and deal with things myself and what I know now is that's absolutely the worst thing you can do because it makes the treatment side of this condition so much harder because you're just sort of entrenching all of these bad practices and everything is getting embedded
00:38:54
Speaker
in the wrong way in your mind. And yeah, so I've had fairly intensive treatment over the last couple of years to try and get myself back on track, so to speak. And I've had a lot of fantastic support from my family and my wife, particularly, who's been a huge supporter and advocate of where I'm at. And we're both trying to
00:39:24
Speaker
bringing a bit more awareness to the impacts, I guess, of emergency services work that people struggle through. And that's not just the sort of mainstream, what you would see on the TV either. There's so many volunteer groups, there's private sector responders that do all this sort of work as well that are all potentially affected by this. So
00:39:48
Speaker
You know, it's one of those things that I think that we can do a lot better at and manage a lot better as a community, as a particularly organizationally. But, you know, just there's a lot more that can be done to support people like me, both preventatively and if it's still, unfortunately, eventuates, then how better to help people that end up in the position that I was in?
00:40:12
Speaker
It's also that ripple effect. It's not just you and the frontline people who find themselves in these kinds of situations and with sicknesses and illnesses like this, but also it's the families. It's everyone around them that also is caught up in this big tornado of mental ill health.
00:40:30
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think everyone's probably well aware of the focus that's been on the DVA system of the Defence Force and some of its problems and it's going through a Royal Commission because of the seriousness of those problems.
00:40:47
Speaker
Realistically, what we face here in New South Wales, and it's no different in most of the other jurisdictions, is very similar to the issues they're facing with problems of getting good treatment early, not having battles built within the system that's actually there meant to look after you. And you're right, your whole family ends up getting consumed by this because
00:41:08
Speaker
It's hard to say it, but that's if you're lucky enough to still have your family. Cause unfortunately a lot of people ended up coming down with these types of mental illnesses and mental injuries, you know, quite hard to live with. And, um, you know, a lot of them struggle to maintain their, um, their relationships if they're lucky enough to have one in the first place. And, you know, so many of them don't survive and, and, you know, they're left to then try and navigate this on their own while they're suffering these conditions, which is just, you know,
00:41:39
Speaker
I don't know how you do it on your own.
Heart to Heart Walk for Mental Health Awareness
00:41:41
Speaker
To be honest, I don't think I'd have been able to navigate what I've had to navigate on my own. I just don't think I'd be able to do it.
00:41:47
Speaker
Do you want to just tell us a little bit about what the Heart to Heart Walk is and the work that you're doing with the podcast to support that? I had this burning desire for podcasts after I found a lot of comfort in them when I was really unwell and I actually listening to other people's stories of what they'd been through and how this particular condition had manifested in them, whether it had been post military service or something similar.
00:42:15
Speaker
I found a lot of validation in the sense that I actually didn't feel so abnormal. And, you know, when you listen to what other people had been through and how this condition presented in them, I went, wow, that's exactly the same as me. So I really started finding a lot of comfort in these stories. But there wasn't a lot of content from emergency services or policing sort of thing in the Australian context anyway. It was mostly military stuff.
00:42:40
Speaker
I really started to think, you know, I'd love to get more of that content out there to help people like me. And then around about the same time, I stumbled across a post about this thing called the Heart to Heart Walk, which was the heart of country to the heart of the nation. So the center of Australia to the center of Canberra to Parliament House.
00:42:58
Speaker
It was all about raising awareness for the mental health of first responders and a few other matters around getting better statistics on the actual seriousness of the event. And also this anecdotal data that not only are emergency services workers more susceptible to suicide, but premature mortality in the sense that they don't live very long quite often. And I think that's that manifestation of the... So interesting.
00:43:26
Speaker
Yeah, just that chronic stress state that so many police and emergency services workers live in day to day. It just takes a massive physical toll. That hyper vigilance kind of stuff.
00:43:39
Speaker
Yeah, I've had military people explain it. You know, it's like being on deployment every day. And, you know, when you're living and breathing in that state and doing it on your days off, you know, it's just it takes a toll on your body. You know, there's certainly evidence out there that suggests that it's certainly life shortening, unfortunately. And but there's not a lot of information about it. So that's another another thing that the walk is about. So, yeah, it's going to kick off on the first of July out in Lambert Center of Australia.
00:44:09
Speaker
the navigation nerds can now look up the Lambert Centre of Australia. And in fact, if they're nav nerds, they'd know what that is. Yeah. You know, we're going to sort of do community engagement activities with first responders at some of those centres on the way through as the walk passes through town. But it's certainly not something that we're expecting the individual walkers like myself to walk every step of the whole walk. It's
00:44:32
Speaker
It's very much a case of aiming for 40Ks a day. If you're feeling up for it, yeah, walk the whole 40. If you're not, walk 10 and swap with someone and be part of the support crew. I made contact with the organizers and said, look, I'm on board. I'd love to be part of this thing, but I've got this other idea and I explained this idea of getting a podcast off the ground to them.
00:44:53
Speaker
they said that would be fantastic if you could support us that way. And around about that same time, my wife bought me this old 1969 old Franklin caravan to do up as a project. Yeah, to keep me sort of mentally occupied and to, you know, as something I could do with the, you know, as an activity to do with the kids and her, you know, working on it. And so we set it up as a mobile podcast studio. And the idea is that it's coming along the walk.
00:45:20
Speaker
just trying to get those stories out there into the great unknown. And yeah, there'll be certainly some characters on this trip for the whole thing. And we'll come across stacks in the towns that we're going through. So hopefully we'll capture some of these amazing stories on the way.
00:45:36
Speaker
And even just as you're moving through, like being a support to the first responders in these remote and regional areas, because I mean, a lot of the places out there, you're getting their volleys, you know, who are doing... Almost exclusively. Yeah, some of the really messy stuff. So that's amazing. And what's the message you're taking to Canberra? What's the heart of this all about?
00:46:01
Speaker
Yeah, so the centerpiece of the of the walks purpose is is a 2019 report by the Australian government as a Senate inquiry that produced a report called the people behind triple zero mental health of our first responders and it came out with 14 recommendations that were
00:46:19
Speaker
about exactly what we've just spoken about and a whole bunch of other things about research and recommendations for treatment providers and a whole raft of things. But effectively what happened is the government noted most of them. The long and the short of it is nothing's been done about this huge inquiry that was done back in 2019 and a lot of what's in it would fix the things that we're trying to raise the awareness of.
00:46:42
Speaker
It's really just a call to action, something that we already know lots about. And it would make a big difference to people like me and so many emergency services workers across the country, be that full-time paid volunteer, whatever. It's all around looking after these people that do this really tough work better.
00:47:02
Speaker
It did get tied up with a whole bunch of things because it came out of the federal government. A lot of it is actually a state and territory issue to implement an action.
00:47:12
Speaker
And basically none of the states and territories did anything about it.
Podcast Initiatives and Future Episodes
00:47:16
Speaker
And it's just sitting there on the shelf and it feels like nothing's happening. Yeah. It's a big, a big thing that you guys are putting on. But it's so, it's just so important. I mean, it sounds like even the words I'm saying don't even sound like they have any weight behind them. They're just words. But when you think about that ripple effect and the number that thousands and thousands of people's lives who were affected through PTSD and associated mental ill health because of
00:47:42
Speaker
what they see as their job, as a part of the job, which is to help people, which is to be that comfort, to be that person, to bring someone home to their family, whatever it is. It just seems like a no-brainer that we can't do something about these 14 recommendations. But there's another part to your podcast too that I think is also really valuable, is the hot debrief side of things. That's going to morph into something else, isn't it?
00:48:09
Speaker
Yeah, look, that was the original idea that I had for the podcast was to do what I referred to as a hot debrief with really interesting, you know, first responders from around Australia. And that was, you know, there's so many people with amazing stories and amazing careers, be that, you know, one-off crazy story that they might have from something they've done once or, you know, just a lifetime of
00:48:29
Speaker
of amazing work. And then what I decided to break that down into was exactly that process of a hot debrief after a major incident. But after talking to them is to ask them, in your life or in your career, doing this amazing work as a first responder, what do you think you did well? What do you think you didn't do so well? And if you had your time again, what would you do differently? And
00:48:52
Speaker
use that as a bit of a springboard for hopefully people maybe coming into these roles or that is in them and reflecting on where they're at, maybe give them some sort of, you know, something to think about within themselves, whether they're starting out already in there. And, you know, let's see if some of these people have had amazing careers and,
00:49:14
Speaker
and endured them or not, you know. It seems trite to say, you know, it's all about us learning lessons from stories that other people have gone through and other people's journey. So we don't have to go through the same, the same shit that they've gone through. So we can do life, you know, maybe better.
00:49:30
Speaker
That's it. Yeah. And there's so much that can be passed down, you know, that's often not, I think, because people are, you know, sometimes people are just so bloody humble, they won't tell their amazing stories. So it's hard to get it out of them sometimes. Yeah, I think there's quite a powerful platform in that sort of storytelling piece and people driving around on Night Shift or whatever might listen to one of those stories one day and take something away from it. Yeah.
00:49:55
Speaker
I'm sure there's absolutely bucket loads of stuff in there. That actually leads me to say that the next time that we chat, Matt and you, Brian, I'm looking forward to chatting about you about a slightly different angle, which will be a little bit like a hot debrief. It's going to look at a moment in your life that on reflection probably was quite a pivotal moment when you found yourself on the other side.
00:50:19
Speaker
of the rescue situation. So let's not give too much away about that just yet. But where can people find you? Where can they listen to the podcast? Where can they find out more about the Heart to Heart Walk and the work that you're doing? Yeah. So the Heart to Heart Walk's got a website, which is heart2heartwalk.org.
00:50:39
Speaker
or the podcast, the details are available through Instagram. So we've got an Instagram page, which is h2hwalk.podcast. Otherwise just search your podcast platform for Heart to Heart Walk Podcast. Fantastic. Look, I'll put all of that in the show notes. People can link on through and maybe even look at ways that they can support and help out and start sharing some of these important messages and stories around first responder mental health.
00:51:05
Speaker
That'd be great. Thanks very much for having me on. It's been really, really good to finally catch up with you. And you too, Matt. After all these years. Well, look, I look forward to the day when you feel in the right place to be able to bring your girls up to the mountains. And I look forward to that day, whenever that may be in the future.
00:51:24
Speaker
Yeah, I've got a fair few supporters up there that will help me through it, I think. But yeah, I am looking forward to it. The time will come. The time will come. Well, until our next time we chat. Thank you so much for joining me here on The Rescued Podcast and all the best and we'll chat soon.
00:51:41
Speaker
The Rescued podcast is produced on the unceded lands of the Gundangara and Darug people of the Blue Mountains of New South Wales. I pay my respects to elders past and present and acknowledge their enduring connection to and care for country. Special thanks to our sponsors Patti Powen and to Jen Brown for production support. This has been a Lots of Fresh Air production.