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S1E05: Scrub with Tad and Dish on RPGs!
52 Plays1 year ago
We welcome Tad Leckman back to the kitchen to chat about the current state of Star Wars role playing games and other tabletop games. Grab your droid and broom and join us!
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Transcript
Tad Lekman on Star Wars and Tabletop Gaming
00:00:01
Speaker
It's part two with Tad Lekman as we talk about Star Wars role-playing games and other tabletop games. It's a Star Wars cleaning crew starting now.
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome back to the Star Wars Cleaning Crew and I hope you had a great May the 4th. I did what I typically do on May the 4th. I got up and went to Disneyland, but I had a great time while I was there and hoping that you had a good time celebrating as well. Wanted to return back to our conversation with Tad Lekman and shifting gears a little bit.
Meeting Through a Shared Passion for Games
00:00:29
Speaker
Tad and I met, we met each other when we were both working at a game company, at a game studio.
00:00:34
Speaker
And so we have a passion for games as well. So we turned our conversation from Tad's Lucasfilm history to talking about the current state of Star Wars games. Let's take a listen right now.
Teaching Game Theory and Influencing Careers
00:00:46
Speaker
One of Tad's many talents is in game theory, game design, and he teaches that, has taught that. One of his former students is my son, which is fun.
00:00:59
Speaker
But role-playing games is something that is big on your horizon with that. And I think you actually taught classes in designing tabletop role-playing games, right? Or at least I was part of it at Santa Cruz. Yeah, I have a my, for a long time, I was teaching all sorts of classes at UC Santa Cruz in both of their game departments that they have. But one course that I feel like I tricked them into letting me teach was adventure design with tabletop.
00:01:25
Speaker
role-playing games adventure design and not only did they let me teach it but it was pretty successful and so they let me teach it multiple times and actually I'm going to be teaching an evening class this summer. I managed to wrangle it with my day job to actually teach it again this summer which I'm very excited about.
00:01:40
Speaker
I'll be at UC Santa Cruz. Yeah. And two of my students who had taken the course before when I taught it are now working the games industry as adventure slash encounter designers for video games. So they're going to come back and do a little talk for me. Very cool. Very cool. So yeah, it's something I'm passionate about both in my personal life and I've let it bleed into my professional life as well. It's just, it's the, it's the most fun you can have playing make believe with your friends.
Dungeons and Dragons and Public Speaking
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah. With some light mediation by Dyson Rules. Right, exactly. And, you know, you and I both, we are both of an age and we both grew up playing Dungeons and Dragons. I remember as a junior in high school doing a speech for a speech tournament on how to pretend and, you know, a whole bunch of it was about playing Dungeons and Dragons, which was really fun. The reason why I wanted to bring it up here was
00:02:34
Speaker
The Star Wars role-playing game is finally just being reprinted, right?
Star Wars RPG: Reprints and Confusion
00:02:40
Speaker
So the version by Fantasy Flight Games. And I'm still confused about exactly what's going on in that company. Like, yeah, I know I'm grabbing my box right now. Now it says what, Edge Studio or something like that. They've got so many brands now.
00:02:54
Speaker
So because there was the acquisition by Asmode, which is a giant behemoth of a game company, board game, mostly tabletop game company. And they spun off the Star Wars RPG to Edge Studio. And then they spun off Star Wars Legion to someone else. There's been a lot of weird kind of fracturing of the tabletop Star Wars game landscape.
00:03:20
Speaker
The upshot of which is for people like us who just wanted to buy some more of the weird dice that you need to play the Star Wars RPG. They weren't available for like two years, it feels like.
00:03:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. You know, I, I've had the beginner box for several years and I played just like a couple of times, but I, I wanted to start a new campaign going on it and I went to order the, this is like several months ago, I went to order the dice and no, they're not available. You know, your only option was to use the iPad app, which I just, you know, it's just not the same as rolling.
00:03:52
Speaker
So, so I'm glad it's out again, but Ted, I think you've got a lot more experience with the actual, you know, with, with this game than I do.
Narrative-Driven Outcomes with Star Wars RPG Dice
00:03:59
Speaker
What are some of the highlights of it? And maybe one of the places to start is, is how is it different from like Dungeons and Dragons, which probably a lot of our listeners are familiar with.
00:04:09
Speaker
It is, it is similar, but different. It's funny, Bobby just reminded me too. Yes, I played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons when I was a young person in the eighties, but I like a lot of people stopped playing for a really long time. And I came back to tabletop role playing games when we worked at that game studio together, because one of our narrative leads,
00:04:31
Speaker
said, wait, Tad, you're a Star Wars guy. We're playing the Star Wars. I want to play a game of the Star Wars role playing game. And he said, you have a positive energy that I'd love to bring to my table, which I took as a compliment. But I was also like, what's happening with the rest of the players at your table? So he brought me in to play this game. And so this was actually my kind of reentry point to tabletop role playing games. Yeah.
00:04:57
Speaker
And it so that I think the main difference that people will notice if you've played a game like Dungeons and Dragons before is and it has to do with the dice, which is, you know, in Dungeons and Dragons and similar games, you have stats and usually have some sort of bonus number that you apply. You roll a 20 sided die. Yeah. And you add your bonus and that gets that gets compared against a target number that you're trying to hit. And it really is binary. It is basically you succeed or you fail.
00:05:24
Speaker
You hit the goblin. Oh, you didn't hit the goblin. Right. Like that's it. And you hit him, you roll for damage, which is also kind of arbitrary and not really connected to reality in any way. Yeah. And the Star Wars RPG is not like that.
00:05:40
Speaker
Yeah, you're basically assembling a pool of dice or dice pool. Yeah, they do have these funky dice. So they're like, they're normal like six sided dice. I think there's a 12 sided die and an an eight sided die as well.
00:05:56
Speaker
But they have weird symbols on the sides. And so there's no numbers, some of the side. Yeah, there's no numbers. And some of the sides don't have anything on them at all. Right. And some of them are positive. And some of them are negative. And basically, you know, a key part of role playing games is you get to a point where there is something that needs to get resolved, whether it's whether you attack, like hit somebody when you try to attack them, whether it's you're successful in your diplomatic
00:06:21
Speaker
conversation with somebody, like it could be any kinds of things, but it's where there there's a chance that failure would be a problem. Yeah. And success would be meaningful. You use the dice to kind of arbitrate whether you're successful at that. So the Star Wars RPG, you've got a situation that happens and then based on your character's abilities and based on the weapons that you have or the tools that you have, you add more positive dice if you're in a good situation.
00:06:49
Speaker
I need to climb a wall. Oh, you've got a grappling hook on the belt that you stole from the stormtrooper. Great. Oh, it's raining. Okay. So I'm going to add a negative dice to the pool and you wait right up rolling like 10 dice.
00:07:05
Speaker
Which is very satisfying, by the way. And then you roll it and these weird symbols come up and you and the game master kind of interpret the dice. Right. Some of them cancel each other out. Yeah. Yeah. And instead of like, yes, you succeed or no, you fail. It could be you succeed, but there's a complication. Right. Or you fail, but something good also happens.
00:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, which leads to like, oh, I have to like, we have to narrate what's happened the situation instead of just like you hit him. It's like, oh, no, you hit the stormtrooper, but it knocked the tarp over on top of him. Now he can't see so he's going to be at a disadvantage next time. Like it leads to storytelling. And also I think the thing I really liked about it too is it's a mechanical thing that leads to telling the kinds of stories that Star Wars tells. Yeah.
00:07:55
Speaker
Star Wars heroes are failing all of the time. They're failing forward all of the time. So that like you fail, but something good happens or you succeed, but there's a complication feels very Star Wars to me. True. Yeah. Um, and so it's a great, it's, it's, some people just bounce off it immediately. Like I hate the weird dice. I don't like it's too complicated. I don't want to do that.
00:08:20
Speaker
Which is fine. Yeah. But once you get your head around it, it's actually it yields all sorts of really amazing things at the table. And again, and it feels like Star Wars. And it feels like Star Wars. And it also feels even more like collaborative storytelling than Dungeons and Dragons does. You know, I know a lot of dungeon masters in D&D. And I think this is inspired by Matt Mercer in Critical Role.
00:08:47
Speaker
You know, the the player narrating what happens when, you know, a killing blow is like that's the reward for, you know, for finishing the encounter is, you know, how do you want to do that? And you get to narrate it. But with the Star Wars RPG, that's more like every time. Yes, it's the it's the the GM and the player collaborating together to tell a Star Wars story.
00:09:11
Speaker
Yep. And it really does kind of reinforce that. I mean, if with the right group of players, you could sit around with no rules and tell an interactive story and have a great time, but it's so nice to have that structure to kind of guide things. And so.
Comparing Star Wars Skirmish Games to Warhammer
00:09:27
Speaker
You know, we were talking earlier before we started recording about the kind of other side of tabletop Star Wars games, which is like the war games, like the skirmish games. So some people might be familiar with like Warhammer, which is the most popular tabletop war gaming. But there are Star Wars versions, several, again, several of them from that has changed that have changed hands multiple times. So there's Legion, Star Wars Legion, which is the penultimate one. And the new one is called Shatterpoint.
00:09:56
Speaker
Shatterpoint, right. And that's more like one on one battle focused than Legion is like, it sounds more like squad based, right? Well, Shatterpoint's got squads too, but they're like, so the difference is, so if you've got, if one of you is playing Ewoks, like there's one unit of like three Ewoks as you would move around in Shatterpoint. Okay. Yeah. But the main difference is the scale of the miniatures. They're all different.
00:10:22
Speaker
which made a lot of people mad because I am a person who does not play the tabletop skirmish game, but I'm sure gonna buy those little miniatures used for my role-playing game. And I would like to have access to all of them. I actually bought some Shatterpoint Ewoks, and I was disappointed, like they're huge compared to- They're too big. They're too big. Give you the giant Ewok, Attack of the Giant Ewoks. Yes, exactly. Like, wait, aren't those Wookiees? No, we won't even go there. No, you don't want me to cry.
00:10:51
Speaker
And I am interested in that. You know, I just started getting into painting miniatures when I learned that I could do it without being a colossal failure. I started getting interested in doing it. So I do have to pick out some of these and try them. You know, it'll be a lot of fun. My advice. So, OK, so the downside of all of the Star Wars tabletop minis being different sizes is you can't use them together.
00:11:17
Speaker
The benefit is they keep getting bigger each time. So, Shadowpoint miniatures are actually quite large, which means they're easy to paint, especially if you can't see very well. They know they're demographic, I think, part of their demographic well. Right. But the other thing, Bob, is there's, you know, there's, so, you know, D&D is often associated with miniature painting as well. And usually the first miniatures that you paint for D&D are skeletons. Yeah. Because they're easy. They're just skeletons.
00:11:47
Speaker
Guess what Star Wars has.
00:11:49
Speaker
Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers are the skeletons of Star Wars. So they're very forgiving for new painters, and you need a lot of them. So I am currently painting a bunch of stormtroopers myself. Oh, that's great. That's great. Well, hey, speaking of getting started with the Star Wars RPG, part of the confusing part about it is there's a bunch of sets, right? There's kind of a bunch of sub brands under it. Where would you recommend that people start?
00:12:17
Speaker
So the good news is, so there's a couple of different ways they've sliced things up. So one is there are, like with D and D and some other role playing games, there are hardback books that you can get that have the rules. It's kind of everything that you need to one, but it's not everything you need because it doesn't have any kind of beginner's tutorial adventure and it doesn't have the funky dice.
00:12:36
Speaker
They also have beginner sets, which is what I highly recommend. But even after you've taken that advice and you're like, great, I'm going to get a beginner set for the Star Wars RPG. Let me go to my local game store and oh, wait, there's three of them. There's three of them. Right.
Choosing the Right Star Wars RPG Set
00:12:51
Speaker
So the way they've split things up is there's Edge of Empire, which was also the first version of the game that came out. And that's more like Han Solo, Smugglers, Outer Rim, Outlaw kind of style of play.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, the underworld. Yeah. And then next they released, uh, age of rebellion, which is more of like the classic rebels versus Imperials in the Yavin Yavin era. And those first two box sets really don't have any force powers. And there's no, like you can't be a Jedi in those two verses. It really is more about like being kind of the non Jedi, maybe some force sensitive people here and there, but there really aren't a lot of rules for using the force. Yeah.
00:13:30
Speaker
The third one, Force and Destiny, which is the third flavor of the game, that has all the rules for being a Jedi and engaging kind of a little bit more in that part of the fantasy. You can really get any of the three. They all have the basic same core rules. They all work exactly the same way. They all come with the same dice.
00:13:50
Speaker
They have slightly different, they have different adventures for each one. So if you want more, lean into like the Han Solo, go for Edge of Empire. I'm just looking at the one for Age of Rebellion now. It's actually quite good. And it's like an attack on an Imperial base. So that's cool. So if you want kind of the Rebels infiltrating the Empire feel, then I would get Age of Rebellion. I don't know what the one is in Force and Destiny, because I haven't gotten
Looking Ahead: More Stories with Tad Lekman
00:14:15
Speaker
that one yet.
00:14:15
Speaker
okay yeah but my guess is it's some sort of young jedi right i'm sure so that was our conversation about games tad and i had a good time there and when we were done with that we kept talking and tad told me a bunch of great stories and fortunately i kept the mic rolling so we're gonna bring that to you next tuesday so stay tuned for part three with tad lekman coming next tuesday in the meantime make sure you subscribe make sure you like would love if you could review us
00:14:45
Speaker
And may the force be with you. Come back to the Cleaning Crew. We'll see you soon.